# Electric Car News



## Kyle

Lithium shortages impact Tesla, other EV carmakers, numerous tech markets


The price of lithium has surged over the past year


Electric vehicles (EVs) have been growing in popularity amid climate initiatives to reduce carbon emissions, yet production is being hampered by a shortage of lithium, an essential element for making electric batteries. 


The lithium shortage problem was highlighted at this year’s Austin Auto Show. Many of the electric vehicles on display, such as the Ford F-150, have thousands of orders already – despite not being out yet. 

In a recent interview, lithium and mining expert Joe Lowry told Bloomberg that a gap will continue to grow between supply and demand over the next two years. 











						Lithium shortages impact Tesla, other EV carmakers, numerous tech markets
					

Electric vehicles (EVs) have been growing in popularity amid climate initiatives to reduce carbon emissions, yet production is being hampered by a shortage of lithium, an essential element for making electric batteries.




					www.foxbusiness.com


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## GURPS

FedEx’s new electric delivery van​

As new electric vehicles go, the BrightDrop Zevo 600 is pretty spartan. It has a full suite of the latest driver safety aids and a Google-powered infotainment system, but you can see bare metal skin when you look at the door from the driver's seat, and the innate quiet of its electric powertrain is offset by the ever-present clanking and banging from the rear roller door. But that's OK because the Zevo 600 is a commercial van, and that means being reliable, efficient, and safe is more important than being the last word in refinement.

We've followed BrightDrop's development for a while now. The startup first broke cover at the Consumer Electronics Show in 2021 through an announcement by General Motors' Mary Barra during her keynote at the conference. Making use of GM's new platform of batteries and electric motors, BrightDrop raced the new Hummer EV to be the fastest-developed vehicle in GM history at just 20 months.

As in the Hummer EV, you'll find a double-stacked slab of lithium-ion cells between the Zevo 600's wheelbase. In this case, there are 20 modules (versus 24 in the Hummer, or just 12 in the forthcoming Cadillac Lyric SUV), which is sufficient for a range of at least 250 miles (402 km). And to prove it, the van drove from New York City to Washington, DC, on Thursday on a single charge.


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## glhs837

So when I see makers speak of increasing production to meet demand, I wonder where they are getting the batteries. Ford initial for the Lightning F-150 was 40K units, now they have almost tripled it to 150K "in the next year *or so"*. They say they have the battery supply. I'm a bit doubtful, battery production and sales are planned out pretty far in advance, since they are sharing the same battery market as a lot of other makers, who has the excess capacity to produce that many cells? Pickups take a LOT of batteries. So much so that lack of battery production capacity and waiting for a new more energy dense cell was what has delayed the Cybertruck and Semi and Roadster. 

Like GM touting regen braking and a liquid cooled battery pack as a revolution, I suspect this is Ford desperately seeking a headline. If they had to lower production of the MACH-E and cant get enough cells to make Maverick Hybrid packs, where are the batteries coming from.


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## GURPS

'Extraordinarily frustrated': Renters can find no place to plug in electric vehicles​


 


I'm going to switch to an EV I have no place to charge it


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## glhs837

GURPS said:


> 'Extraordinarily frustrated': Renters can find no place to plug in electric vehicles​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to switch to an EV I have no place to charge it



Yeah, that takes a special kind of stupid.


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## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> Yeah, that takes a special kind of stupid.




I'm sure they are pressuring the property owners to install some charging stations

4 or 5 charging stations a few Tesla Wall Packs and Solar Panels on the roof, What's the problem you cheap bastard


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## glhs837

GURPS said:


> I'm sure they are pressuring the property owners to install some charging stations
> 
> 4 or 5 charging stations a few Tesla Wall Packs and Solar Panels on the roof, What's the problem you cheap bastard



Depends on the place. One of my sons friends, he and his boyfriend live in a nice complex in Alexandria near where the Amazon Helix will be built the boyfriend works for Amazon. Both make six figures. Place has parking garage under it, better gym that what my son pays to use down here, even guest suites that the tenants can sign up for. That place, spending on adding some charging makes sense as a draw. Here, Foxchase Village, not so much. 

Were I building today, I would bake that in. Buddy of mine, he and his wife are buying a condo out in Lewes. He's adding a 220 rough in to the garage, extra cost is like $300 bucks. Silly not to.


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## Kyle

Do You Know What It Really Costs to Drive an Electric Car?

Video

Do You Know What It Really Costs to Drive an Electric Car?





The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership

Estimating the cost of driving electric is more complicated than calculating the cost of driving a conventional car.


This story is part of Plugged In, CNET's hub for all things EV and the future of electrified mobility. From vehicle reviews to helpful hints and the latest industry news, we've got you covered.

At a time when it costs up to $100 to fill a gas tank, but as little as $10 to charge an electric car, buying an EV may seem like an obvious choice. But EV economics are complicated and you need to be savvy about a lot of unfamiliar factors before you can stick it to the oil companies.

Buying a new car
To drive an EV you have to buy an EV, an often pricey proposition. Even after you sell or trade your current, conventional car you could easily be in the hole $10,000 or more. It'll take you several years to just break even, as my CNET Cars colleague Craig Cole calculates here, even assuming a scenario where you buy a very cheap EV, live in a place with cheap electricity and always charge at home. That's a lot of "ifs" to make the purchase of a new EV an economic slam dunk.










						The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership
					

Estimating the cost of driving electric is more complicated than calculating the cost of driving a conventional car.




					www.cnet.com
				






Don't Swap Your Gas-Guzzler for an Electric Vehicle to Avoid High Fuel Prices

EVs make a lot of sense, especially as fuel prices climb, but avoid knee-jerk impulses to buy an electric car just to save money at the pump.


There are plenty of great reasons to consider an electric vehicle. They usually offer stellar performance, they're smooth and quiet to drive, you can do much of your "refueling" at home (meaning you never have to visit a gas station unless you need snacks or a bathroom break) and they have zero tailpipe emissions. But despite their considerable advantages, EVs still aren't for everyone, and they don't always make the most economic sense.









						Don't Swap Your Gas-Guzzler for an Electric Vehicle to Avoid High Fuel Prices
					

EVs make a lot of sense, especially as fuel prices climb, but avoid knee-jerk impulses to buy an electric car just to save money at the pump.




					www.cnet.com


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## Kinnakeet

FEV! AND FJB!


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## GURPS




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## GURPS

EVs No Longer an Economic Alternative to ICEs As Supercharging Rates Go Through the Roof​

When the gas prices started to rise a couple of months ago, a lot of ICE car owners considered switching to an electric vehicle. In fact, both statistics and carmakers indicated an increase in EV orders specifically because of the high gas prices. But things have changed, not least because the increased demand has put pressure on the market. Soon, not only did EV prices increase significantly, but the operating costs also went up.

Tesla, the company that sells the most EVs in the U.S., has aggressively raised prices in the past months. The main reason was raw materials scarcity and price spikes, but the high demand also played a role. This allowed Tesla to post the biggest profit in history in the first quarter of the year and will most likely repeat the claim for the second quarter too. This proved skeptics saying it’s impossible to make a profit from EVs were all wrong. Tesla is one of the most profitable car companies in the world.

Apart from becoming more expensive, the EVs have also lost their cheap operating costs appeal. Electricity prices have spiked and Supercharging costs often shocked Tesla owners. Tesla historically said it does not make a profit from selling electricity to its customers, but Tesla owners faced increased prices nevertheless.

In countries where the charging rates are per minute, a full battery charge became closer in price to a tank of gas. Canada is one example, and we have covered reports of outrageous supercharging bills that started to appear more than a month ago.


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## kwillia

I’m shocked I tell ya. Just shocked. Who could have seen this coming?


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## Kyle

kwillia said:


> I’m shocked I tell ya. Just shocked. Who could have seen this coming?


Like every other product, if we could only keep the government out of it, it would be clean, cheap and plentiful.


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## Sneakers

I don't remember EVs ever being touted as a cheaper alternative, only greener (which they aren't, either) and a way to move away from fossil fuel.  They were more expensive to build, more expensive to maintain.  The days of cheap electric are nearly gone.


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## GURPS

Sneakers said:


> I don't remember EVs ever being touted as a cheaper alternative,




as long as electricity is cheap and plentiful


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## kwillia

Sneakers said:


> I don't remember EVs ever being touted as a cheaper alternative, only greener (which they aren't, either) and a way to move away from fossil fuel.  They were more expensive to build, more expensive to maintain.  The days of cheap electric are nearly gone.


I distinctly remember the P, VP, S of S, etc. recently spouting off about how now is a great time to buy our electric car because it would save us money each month from not having to get fossil fuel. In fact, the savings will be so great they are pushing for the USPS to dump their gas guzzling fleets and immediately go all in electric.  Then their is the VP and her recent big speech about all government busing doing the same. And they were indeed promoting it as a 'savings' for taxpayers.


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## Sneakers

kwillia said:


> I distinctly remember the P, VP, S of S, etc. recently spouting off about how now is a great time to buy our electric car because it would save us money each month from not having to get fossil fuel. In fact, the savings will be so great they are pushing for the USPS to dump their gas guzzling fleets and immediately go all in electric.  Then their is the VP and her recent big speech about all government busing doing the same. And they were indeed promoting it as a 'savings' for taxpayers.


I guess that's true, but for those of us that did our homework, we knew we were being lied to, and dismissed most of that.


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## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> I don't remember EVs ever being touted as a cheaper alternative, only greener (which they aren't, either) and a way to move away from fossil fuel.  They were more expensive to build, more expensive to maintain.  The days of cheap electric are nearly gone.



Keep a broader mindset. Looking at worst case scenarios can tilt things. I've not seen a report covering more than places like CA and Canada. Also keep in mind, the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) includes a lot of savings on maintenance items. They are significantly cheaper to maintain. And they are indeed greener when you do the math properly. The studies saying other wise forget things like oil usage, and the emissions counts for refining and shipping the fuel. Yes, EVs that charge using electricity generated by say natural gas face the same cost, but simple efficiencies of scale tell us that getting natural gas to a powerplant costs less than refining an equivalent amount of oil into gasoline and then using trucks to distribute that gasloine to various regional centers before using more trucks to deliver that gasoline to gas stations. 

You need to look at it as a fuel life cycle, not just ignoring the stuff done to get that fuel to the vehicle. As far as batteries, again, its life cycle costs. These batteries can and will see the same sort of 100% recycling lead batteries do. In addition to finding second lives as storage devices. Which doesnt happen with gas engines, nobody takes the engine out of a scrapped car and uses it as a generator engine, do they?


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## Kyle




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## Kyle




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## glhs837

Kyle said:


>



You have convinced me with your logic and facts, Sir


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## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> You have convinced me with your logic and facts, Sir


So glad.


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## Kyle




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## Clem72

Kyle said:


>



So what you're telling me is the lithium should be cheaper right?


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## Kyle

Clem72 said:


> So what you're telling me is the lithium should be cheaper right?


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## glhs837

Kyle said:


>


Well, that's not how lithium is mined, thats a cobalt mine, and why every EV maker is working to reduce the amount of cobalt in car batteries to nothing. Of course, the batteries in your laptop and cell phone use it also, yet I see no memes about that. 

And I cant speak to other makers, but Tesla has dropped cobalt use to nothing, or close to it.


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## glhs837

Half Of Teslas Produced In Q1 Had An LFP Battery — Here's Why That Matters
					

Tesla is using a new type of battery in some cars.




					screenrant.com
				






> At its Q1 2022 earnings call, *Tesla* announced that nearly half of all EVs it produced during the quarter were fitted with LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery cells that are free of nickel and cobalt.


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## Kyle

What do you call the new car smell in a Tesla?

Elon Musk




Did you know that Tesla partnered with Microsoft to make a new electric car?

It was due out early this year but they are having a problem installing Windows.


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## glhs837




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## Kyle

Saving the planet


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## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Saving the planet




So this is a bit interesting. So far three of those specific buses have caught fire. All are made by a French company, Bollore SA. They use a proprietary Bollore battery design called Lithium Metal Polymer, said by Bollore to be solid state and have no risk of thermal runaway. 

So the thing is, don't buy magic batteries. And dont expect anything with stored energy to never catch fire. They will. Until we master Magic Pixie Dust (tm), powered things will burn.


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## Kyle

They should roll this back, stop this incessant push, and let this technology ring itself out before trying to force it on everyone.


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## Clem72

Kyle said:


> They should roll this back, stop this incessant push, and let this technology ring itself out before trying to force it on everyone.


Okay boomer.


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## glhs837

Kyle said:


> They should roll this back, stop this incessant push, and let this technology ring itself out before trying to force it on everyone.



Thats how you wring a new tech out, by deploying it. Has anyone died in electric bus incidents?


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## Kyle

Scenes From Hell As Massive Fire In Delhi EV Parking Space Guts Nearly 100 Vehicles

A massive fire at an EV parking facility in Delhi's Jamia Nagar area gutted nearly 100 vehicles including e-rickshaws, cars and two-wheelers.


Read more at: https://www.drivespark.com/off-beat...fire-destroys-nearly-100-vehicles-036152.html


Driver should have passed on the vindaloo.


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## Kyle

Here are the biggest EV recalls since the electric vehicle era began

Millions of EVs have been recalled since their debut.


Even well-established brands have had to recall some of their models. Since electric vehicles are at their toddler stage compared to internal combustion engines, and the software for artificial intelligence-supported driving assistants or autonomous-driving technologies are still developing, a relatively large number of recalls of EV vehicles have occurred. In the last two years, five automakers have recalled electric vehicle batteries due to potential fire and stalling risks. But there have been other high-profile EV recalls before this.












						Here are the biggest EV recalls since the electric vehicle era began
					

Electric vehicles are the latest form of transportation and being so new they sometimes come with minor or major issues.




					amp.interestingengineering.com


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## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Scenes From Hell As Massive Fire In Delhi EV Parking Space Guts Nearly 100 Vehicles
> 
> A massive fire at an EV parking facility in Delhi's Jamia Nagar area gutted nearly 100 vehicles including e-rickshaws, cars and two-wheelers.
> 
> 
> Read more at: https://www.drivespark.com/off-beat...fire-destroys-nearly-100-vehicles-036152.html
> 
> 
> Driver should have passed on the vindaloo.



Yeah, having seen Indian electrical infrastructure, not shocked the EV rickshaws (tuk tuks) are not safe


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## stgislander

It used to be understood that you never bought the first year or two of a new model or powertrain series.  Waaaay too many bugs to be still worked out.


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## Kyle

stgislander said:


> It used to be understood that you never bought the first year or two of a new model or powertrain series.  Waaaay too many bugs to be still worked out.


I broke that rule once and ended up buying a transmission at 115k miles.


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## glhs837

Meh, recalls happen to anything built by humans.


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## kom526

Anybody have $200k to give me so I can go "green"?




Cadillac Celestiq EV


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## glhs837

https://www.cars.com/research/ford-f_150-2021/recalls/
		




			https://www.cars.com/research/ford-escape-2021/recalls/


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## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> Meh, recalls happen to anything built by humans.


That's why I get my tech from aliens.


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## Kyle

kom526 said:


> Anybody have $200k to give me so I can go "green"?



If I was gonna spend that kind of money it'd be on this...


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## stgislander

A friend of Gilligan and mine is really enjoying his Tesla right now.


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## glhs837

Kyle said:


> If I was gonna spend that kind of money it'd be on this...



I'll get this for $150K


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## Sneakers




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## GURPS




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## Kyle




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## Kyle

Study finds more than a quarter of charging stations were nonfunctional
					

A new study found that more than one out of four public charging stations in the Bay Area were nonfunctional...




					electrek.co


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## Kyle

Just wait until the street bums figure out there is copper in those cables attached to the chargers and no one watching them.


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## glhs837

GURPS said:


>




Well, they bought Nassan Leafs, so.......  


Kyle said:


> Study finds more than a quarter of charging stations were nonfunctional
> 
> 
> A new study found that more than one out of four public charging stations in the Bay Area were nonfunctional...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co



Well, thats what happens with third party charging solutions, so......


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## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> Well, they bought Nassan Leafs, so.......
> 
> 
> Well, thats what happens with third party charging solutions, so......


I'm putting in a Level 2 charger outlet now.  Good selling point for the house, and with any luck I'll use it next year.


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## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> I'm putting in a Level 2 charger outlet now.  Good selling point for the house, and with any luck I'll use it next year.



Luckily a buddy mine, fully Grateful Dead type, keeps a composting coffee can on his desk, spoke to me about a condo/townhouse he and the wife are buying in Lewes. When I asked if it was coming with a charging solution, he said nope. They were still early enough to add it through the builder, but its costing 3K. Stupid crazy high, since its just a 220/50 outlet IMO, but he is getting it.


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## Sneakers

That's expensive.  I had a 30A outlet and breaker with wiring for 50A for the generator installed for about $500.

The outlet I'm installing now is just an extension of the 30A dryer outlet already in the garage.  I checked codes and there is nothing to prohibit multiple outlets on the dryer line.  Couple hundred for parts/cable. I considered installing a device called a Dryer Buddy.  It's 2 outlets in one smart box.  If the dryer is in use, the 2nd jack is disabled.  When the dryer is off, the 2nd jack is active.








						Dryer Buddy Plus AUTO
					

Don't have a 240v outlet in your garage? Get connected with a Dryer Buddy™ Plus AUTO! Allows your Dryer and EV charging station to use the same outlet without constant unplugging and re-plugging! Automatically switches the EV outlet on/off based upon whether Dryer is running or not. A handy...



					www.bsaelectronics.com


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## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> That's expensive.  I had a 30A outlet and breaker with wiring for 50A for the generator installed for about $500.
> 
> The outlet I'm installing now is just an extension of the 30A dryer outlet already in the garage.  I checked codes and there is nothing to prohibit multiple outlets on the dryer line.  Couple hundred for parts/cable. I considered installing a device called a Dryer Buddy.  It's 2 outlets in one smart box.  If the dryer is in use, the 2nd jack is disabled.  When the dryer is off, the 2nd jack is active.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dryer Buddy Plus AUTO
> 
> 
> Don't have a 240v outlet in your garage? Get connected with a Dryer Buddy™ Plus AUTO! Allows your Dryer and EV charging station to use the same outlet without constant unplugging and re-plugging! Automatically switches the EV outlet on/off based upon whether Dryer is running or not. A handy...
> 
> 
> 
> www.bsaelectronics.com



Same idea as charging 20K for the unfinished bonus space over a garage. You just pay more for want to haves with a builder vs adding after.


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## glhs837

GURPS said:


> Biden Repeatedly Struggles While Delivering Remarks, Elon Musk Torches Him​
> 
> Biden repeatedly demonized the nation’s highest court during his remarks, calling the ruling “terrible” and “extreme,” and claiming without evidence that the ruling was “not a decision driven by the Constitution.”
> 
> During his remarks, Biden repeatedly stammered, struggled to pronounce words, and appeared to read a little too much off the teleprompter, which earned him widespread mockery, including from Elon Musk.
> 
> “It is noteworthy that the percentage of women who register to vote and cast a ballot is consistently higher than the percentage of the men who do so — end of quote. Repeat the line,” Biden said. “Women are not without electoral and, or political — let me be precise — not and, or — or political power.”
> 
> Musk responded with a meme from the movie “Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy” starring Will Ferrell.
> 
> “Whoever controls the teleprompter is the real President!” Musk wrote.
> 
> The meme showed a clip of Ron Burgundy, played by Ferrell, reading off a teleprompter during a newscast, saying: “You stay classy, San Diego. I’m Ron Burgundy?”
> 
> Burgundy’s remarks are immediately followed by his boss stating behind the scenes: “Damn it! Who typed a question [mark] on the Teleprompter? For the last time, anything you put on that prompter, Burgundy will read.”





I award 10 demerit points to House Gurps for an off topic post!!!!


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## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> I award 10 demerit points to House Gurps for an off topic post!!!!




 



My bad I was in the wrong channel


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## Kyle

Commentary: Journalists Tow Camper Behind Electric Truck, End in Stunning Failure When They Only Make it 85 Miles
					

Wow! We can go 160 miles before charging! Or make that 150. Or quick, we need to find a charging station right now!




					ijr.com


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## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> Commentary: Journalists Tow Camper Behind Electric Truck, End in Stunning Failure When They Only Make it 85 Miles
> 
> 
> Wow! We can go 160 miles before charging! Or make that 150. Or quick, we need to find a charging station right now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ijr.com




Not very bright journalists.  The range initial was for the truck, unladen, no trailer.  Once it determined the actual load and power usage, range was dramatically reduced, something the journalists didn't even consider.  No different than an ICE getting 20-22mpg normal, and 10-15 when towing.

But it did expose what most of us already know... gas is not ready to be replaced by electric.


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## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Commentary: Journalists Tow Camper Behind Electric Truck, End in Stunning Failure When They Only Make it 85 Miles
> 
> 
> Wow! We can go 160 miles before charging! Or make that 150. Or quick, we need to find a charging station right now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ijr.com



Shocker, when you chose an inadequate tool for the job, its going to end in failure. The Lightning was the wrong tool for three reasons

1. Don't bring an electric truck to a towing battle who's range starts with anything less than three. Just asking for it. 
2 Dont buy EVs who's design is a ICE vehicle conversion. If the platform was designed from the ground up as an EV, its going to suffer massive inefficiency. This is why every ICE maker who thought they could just slap some batteries and a motor into an ICE body has now decided to build from the ground up. 
3. Dont buy EVs tied to shitty charging networks. 
4. When a maker rushes a design to get first mover advantage, someones going to pay a price for that speed. 

Last point. These guys are dicks, as shown by the fact that rather than be good citizens and unhook the trailer to charge, they blocked off a lot of chargers to make a point. 

We'll see how the newer gen EV trucks fare, the Silverado and the 2025 Lightning, both of which will be clean sheet designs. That should make them more efficient, but theres only so much you can do to a vehicle that size, so I suspect there will be massive costly battery packs and a low eMPG. 

This is the reason for the Cybertruck odd design. You cant really get the weight/strength needed for efficiency without the exoskeleton and the gigacastings and structural battery pack. Like farm equipment, the design requirements form the design.


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## PeoplesElbow

Sneakers said:


> Not very bright journalists.  The range initial was for the truck, unladen, no trailer.  Once it determined the actual load and power usage, range was dramatically reduced, something the journalists didn't even consider.  No different than an ICE getting 20-22mpg normal, and 10-15 when towing.
> 
> But it did expose what most of us already know... gas is not ready to be replaced by electric.


This is why I want a plug in hybrid fullsize with maybe 40 miles worth of EV and 400 of HEV range.


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## Kyle

Electric car survey finds this as the biggest reason preventing people from buying them

Electric-only vehicles in spotlight as gas prices remain high



Supply chain issues in auto sector will last until 2024: Expert
A survey of U.S. adults has found that the logistics of where and when they would be able to charge an electric car is the largest barrier preventing them from owning such vehicles. 


The revelation emerged in a recent poll of around 8,000 people conducted by Consumer Reports, in which a combined 36% said they would "definitely" or "seriously consider" choosing an electric-only vehicle as their next auto purchase. 

When asked about the top concerns preventing them from making the jump from gas to electric, 61% cited charging logistics, followed by 55% saying the number of miles the vehicle can go per charge and 52% saying the costs of buying and maintaining an electric-only vehicle. 












						Electric car survey finds this as the biggest reason preventing people from buying them
					

A survey of American adults has found that the logistics of charging an electric vehicle is the top reason preventing people from buying them as their next auto purchase.




					www.foxbusiness.com


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## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> When asked about the top concerns preventing them from making the jump from gas to electric, 61% cited charging logistics, followed by 55% saying the number of miles the vehicle can go per charge and 52% saying the costs of buying and maintaining an electric-only vehicle.


I agree with this, and for most people this is a huge jump financially and in concept.  That's why I chose to put money down on a concept vehicle.  It won't be my primary vehicle which is still a big ol' ICE pickup, And I see it as more of a fun toy than a primary mode of transportation, but I'm sure over time it will be more and more like my daily driver, just to save on gas.

The Aptera, which I really hope comes to fruition, can have up to 1000 mile range.  I opted for the 400 mile range package.  It has solar cells which add up to 40 miles a day.  Since most people drive less than that daily, in theory you never need to plug in to charge.  If you do need to plug in, you can get a full charge from a 120VAC outlet overnight.  I'm being very optimistic about getting one, so I'm putting in a 240VAC outlet in the garage now, so a couple of hours for a full charge.

I'm really looking forward to getting this vehicle and seeing just how close they come to their claims.


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## Kyle

Sneakers said:


> The Aptera, which I really hope comes to fruition, can have up to 1000 mile range.  ...


Had to look that one up, i'd never heard mention of it before.

At <900 lbs I can see how they've stretched the range but I'd never want to get hit in one.


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## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> <900 lbs


It's between 1700 and 2000 lbs, falls into the same category as my Slingshot.  Agree, wouldn't want to get hit, but no different that what I drive now.


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## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> Had to look that one up, i'd never heard mention of it before.


I have mentioned it before, but here's their website.
Aptera Motors 

Tons of videos out there on it, design, testing, features, safety, etc...


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## Kyle

Sneakers said:


> It's between 1700 and 2000 lbs, falls into the same category as my Slingshot.  Agree, wouldn't want to get hit, but no different that what I drive now.


I was going by the wikipedia entry that had it listed as 851lbs. 

Still about half the weight of things that it would share the road with.


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## Clem72

glhs837 said:


> Shocker, when you chose an inadequate tool for the job, its going to end in failure. The Lightning was the wrong tool for three reasons
> 
> 1. Don't bring an electric truck to a towing battle who's range starts with anything less than three. Just asking for it.
> 2 Dont buy EVs who's design is a ICE vehicle conversion. If the platform was designed from the ground up as an EV, its going to suffer massive inefficiency. This is why every ICE maker who thought they could just slap some batteries and a motor into an ICE body has now decided to build from the ground up.
> 3. Dont buy EVs tied to shitty charging networks.
> 4. When a maker rushes a design to get first mover advantage, someones going to pay a price for that speed.
> 
> Last point. These guys are dicks, as shown by the fact that rather than be good citizens and unhook the trailer to charge, they blocked off a lot of chargers to make a point.
> 
> We'll see how the newer gen EV trucks fare, the Silverado and the 2025 Lightning, both of which will be clean sheet designs. That should make them more efficient, but theres only so much you can do to a vehicle that size, so I suspect there will be massive costly battery packs and a low eMPG.
> 
> This is the reason for the Cybertruck odd design. You cant really get the weight/strength needed for efficiency without the exoskeleton and the gigacastings and structural battery pack. Like farm equipment, the design requirements form the design.



Actually this article confirms my choice for the Lighting (im on the list, but haven't been given the chance to buy yet).  They say in the article there's a place for this vehicle, focusing on around town light duty work.

Well I was planning on buying an electric SUV as I don't camp or haul toys anymore.  Plan is to treat the Lightning like an SUV for in/around town travel that can also take trash to the transfer station and in an emergency power my house lights.

Might not be as efficient as an SUV in eMPG, but the extra features seem like a good tradeoff.  They made it 85 miles with the trailer with around 10% battery left so if we're generous we could say it might get 100 miles if driven point to point.  That's not a good for a vehicle that's supposed to get 230 miles.  I won't really be concerned though unless normal non-trailer range is less than 170 miles or so (round trip from BWI, pretty much my worst case scenario use case).


----------



## phreddyp

They should have loaded the trailer being pulled by the EV with a generator, problem solved .


----------



## Clem72

So I was inspired to look for NON TOWING range reviews. Seems like guys are getting right at the EPA estimate.

Here's a video of a guys first trip with the truck.  Drives a mix of city/highway with the adaptive cruise set 5mph above speed limit. 90+ degrees so he's running the AC the entire time (including while filming the introduction), he stops for fast food, drives around parking garages,etc.

Looks like he got 235 miles.  Anything over 200 is gravy for me, and with my mostly in town and between Ltown/the Park/Solomons my max speed is likely to be limited to 60mph or so, so I should be on the upper end of the estimates.


----------



## glhs837

Clem72 said:


> Actually this article confirms my choice for the Lighting (im on the list, but haven't been given the chance to buy yet).  They say in the article there's a place for this vehicle, focusing on around town light duty work.
> 
> Well I was planning on buying an electric SUV as I don't camp or haul toys anymore.  Plan is to treat the Lightning like an SUV for in/around town travel that can also take trash to the transfer station and in an emergency power my house lights.
> 
> Might not be as efficient as an SUV in eMPG, but the extra features seem like a good tradeoff.  They made it 85 miles with the trailer with around 10% battery left so if we're generous we could say it might get 100 miles if driven point to point.  That's not a good for a vehicle that's supposed to get 230 miles.  I won't really be concerned though unless normal non-trailer range is less than 170 miles or so (round trip from BWI, pretty much my worst case scenario use case).



If it fits your use case, then agreed. I've not seen a 65-70mph highway run yet.


----------



## Ken King

If I had the coin I would like a Lucid Air Dream (Hell, I would settle for their low end model - Air Pure).


----------



## GURPS

Studies Show The Electric Vehicles Democrats Insist You Buy Are Worse For The Environment And Lower Quality​


According to J.D. Power, owners of electric or hybrid vehicles cite more problems than do owners of gas-powered vehicles. The latter vehicles average 175 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100), hybrids average 239 PP100, and battery-powered cars — excluding Tesla models — average 240 PP100. Tesla models average 226 PP100. Given the average cost of an electric car is roughly $60,000, about $20,000 more than the cost of a gas-powered car, it seems owners of EVs didn’t get the value they deserve.

Some blamed the supply-chain disruptions caused by pandemic-related lockdowns as the main reason for EVs’ quality issues. EV makers have sought alternative (sometimes less optimal) solutions to manufacture new vehicles. But the same supply-chain disruption affected makers of gas-powered vehicles. Yet the three highest-ranking brands, measured by overall initial quality, are all makers of gas-powered vehicles: Buick (139 PP100), Dodge (143 PP100), and Chevrolet (147 PP100).

Some pointed to the design as a main contributing factor to EVs’ quality issues. According to David Amodeo, global director of automotive at J.D. Power, automakers view EVs as “the vehicle that will transform us into the era of the smart cars,” so they have loaded up EVs with technologies such as touch screens, Bluetooth, and voice recognition. EV makers also prefer to use manufacturer-designed apps to “control certain functions of the car, from locking and unlocking the doors remotely to monitoring battery charge.” Increasing technical complexity also increases the likelihood of problems. Not surprisingly, EV owners reported more infotainment and connectivity issues in their vehicles than owners of gas-powered vehicles. Amodeo acknowledged that “there’s a lot of room for improvement” for EVs.


----------



## phreddyp

GURPS said:


> Studies Show The Electric Vehicles Democrats Insist You Buy Are Worse For The Environment And Lower Quality​
> 
> 
> According to J.D. Power, owners of electric or hybrid vehicles cite more problems than do owners of gas-powered vehicles. The latter vehicles average 175 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100), hybrids average 239 PP100, and battery-powered cars — excluding Tesla models — average 240 PP100. Tesla models average 226 PP100. Given the average cost of an electric car is roughly $60,000, about $20,000 more than the cost of a gas-powered car, it seems owners of EVs didn’t get the value they deserve.
> 
> Some blamed the supply-chain disruptions caused by pandemic-related lockdowns as the main reason for EVs’ quality issues. EV makers have sought alternative (sometimes less optimal) solutions to manufacture new vehicles. But the same supply-chain disruption affected makers of gas-powered vehicles. Yet the three highest-ranking brands, measured by overall initial quality, are all makers of gas-powered vehicles: Buick (139 PP100), Dodge (143 PP100), and Chevrolet (147 PP100).
> 
> Some pointed to the design as a main contributing factor to EVs’ quality issues. According to David Amodeo, global director of automotive at J.D. Power, automakers view EVs as “the vehicle that will transform us into the era of the smart cars,” so they have loaded up EVs with technologies such as touch screens, Bluetooth, and voice recognition. EV makers also prefer to use manufacturer-designed apps to “control certain functions of the car, from locking and unlocking the doors remotely to monitoring battery charge.” Increasing technical complexity also increases the likelihood of problems. Not surprisingly, EV owners reported more infotainment and connectivity issues in their vehicles than owners of gas-powered vehicles. Amodeo acknowledged that “there’s a lot of room for improvement” for EVs.


I'm shocked I tell you !


----------



## Clem72

GURPS said:


> Studies Show The Electric Vehicles Democrats Insist You Buy Are Worse For The Environment And Lower Quality​
> 
> 
> According to J.D. Power, owners of electric or hybrid vehicles cite more problems than do owners of gas-powered vehicles. The latter vehicles average 175 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100), hybrids average 239 PP100, and battery-powered cars — excluding Tesla models — average 240 PP100. Tesla models average 226 PP100. Given the average cost of an electric car is roughly $60,000, about $20,000 more than the cost of a gas-powered car, it seems owners of EVs didn’t get the value they deserve.
> 
> Some blamed the supply-chain disruptions caused by pandemic-related lockdowns as the main reason for EVs’ quality issues. EV makers have sought alternative (sometimes less optimal) solutions to manufacture new vehicles. But the same supply-chain disruption affected makers of gas-powered vehicles. Yet the three highest-ranking brands, measured by overall initial quality, are all makers of gas-powered vehicles: Buick (139 PP100), Dodge (143 PP100), and Chevrolet (147 PP100).
> 
> Some pointed to the design as a main contributing factor to EVs’ quality issues. According to David Amodeo, global director of automotive at J.D. Power, automakers view EVs as “the vehicle that will transform us into the era of the smart cars,” so they have loaded up EVs with technologies such as touch screens, Bluetooth, and voice recognition. EV makers also prefer to use manufacturer-designed apps to “control certain functions of the car, from locking and unlocking the doors remotely to monitoring battery charge.” Increasing technical complexity also increases the likelihood of problems. Not surprisingly, EV owners reported more infotainment and connectivity issues in their vehicles than owners of gas-powered vehicles. Amodeo acknowledged that “there’s a lot of room for improvement” for EVs.




Two things, I don't give a crap if it's better for the enviroment.  Second, the overwhelming majority of the JD Power self-reported "problems" are issues the person had with an infotainment system.  If the idjit can't figure out how to connect his phone bluetooth to the car, that's a reported "problem".  And yes, electric cars have more fancy doodads that people can be confused about even in the base model trim than most ICE cars.


----------



## Sneakers

phreddyp said:


> I'm shocked I tell you !


Don't stick your tongue in the outlet....


----------



## Kyle

GURPS said:


> Increasing technical complexity also increases the likelihood of problems. ​


----------



## stgislander

Wait... isn't JD Powers in the back pocket of General Motors?


----------



## Kyle

stgislander said:


> Wait... isn't JD Powers in the back pocket of General Motors?


Yep.


----------



## DaSDGuy

I want to purchase stock in the smoke and mirrors that will be used to generate the electricity for all these EVs


----------



## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> I want to purchase stock in the smoke and mirrors that will be used to generate the electricity for all these EVs


I'm sure these same sentiments were present when gas autos took over from horses.  Gas was scarce and was carted around by a horse-pulled tank to wherever it was needed, no gas stations.  All tech has growing pains.


----------



## DaSDGuy

Sneakers said:


> I'm sure these same sentiments were present when gas autos took over from horses.  Gas was scarce and was carted around by a horse-pulled tank to wherever it was needed, no gas stations.  All tech has growing pains.


Difference being they didn't restrict horse feed and require everyone to use ICE's when gas wasn't readily available.
Grow the tech, then make the switch.  In software development terms, all we have right now is vaporware - selling new software that doesn't exist yet.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Difference being they didn't restrict horse feed and require everyone to use ICE's when gas wasn't readily available.
> Grow the tech, then make the switch.  In software development terms, all we have right now is vaporware - selling new software that doesn't exist yet.



The support systems grow as the demand increases, as with any tech shift. And I agree the shift shouldnt be forced.


----------



## Kyle

I'm going to enjoy hearing about the increased brown-outs/black-outs in Commiefornia each year as the requirement for electrics rises.


----------



## itsbob

We are increasing our Solar Array, I'm thinking the future holds sky high prices (and taxes) for electricity.  As both state and federal government start realizing the lost gas tax revenue, they will come after electricity.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> I'm going to enjoy hearing about the increased brown-outs/black-outs in Commiefornia each year as the requirement for electrics rises.


Be fair, though, that's not EVs, that's stupid grid choices.


----------



## GURPS

itsbob said:


> As both state and federal government start realizing the lost gas tax revenue, they will come after electricity.




I have seen rumblings about that already


----------



## GURPS

Consumer Reports, which said it surveyed around 8,000 Americans, found that 61 percent said they wouldn’t seek to own an electric vehicle because of charging logistics while 55 percent cited the number of miles a vehicle can go per charge. Another 52 percent said that the costs of buying and maintaining an electric vehicle are cost-prohibitive.

Another 46 percent of the respondents stated they have not heard of any financial incentives available for owners of electric vehicles.

“We found that 14 percent of American drivers say they would ‘definitely’ buy or lease an electric-only vehicle if they were to buy a vehicle today,” said Consumer Reports. “That’s up markedly from the 4 percent who said the same in a 2020 nationally representative survey from CR of 3,392 licensed U.S. drivers.”

According to recent figures from Kelly Blue Book, the average price of a new electric vehicle hovered at roughly $56,000. In contrast, the average price of a new compact was about $25,000 at about the same time. The average price of a new, non-electric SUV was $34,000, while the electric version was nearly $45,000.

Meanwhile, a recent report from data analysis and advisory firm J.D. Power, however, found that electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids may have more problems than internal combustion engines.

While internal combustion engine vehicles averaged 175 problems per 100 vehicles, this jumped to 239 among plug-in hybrids and 240 among electric vehicles, a June 28 press release of the J.D. Power 2022 U.S. Initial Quality Study stated. Lower scores represented higher-quality vehicles.








						12ft |
					






					12ft.io


----------



## Sneakers

Couple of items in the World of Telsa:
Aptera has been working closely with Tesla, exchange of tech and ideas.  Aptera has petitioned Congress to make the Tesla charger plug the US standard, superseding the CS1 and J1772 charging systems.

New rumor, and that's all it is, is that Musk is considering Aptera as his next acquisition.


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> Consumer Reports, which said it surveyed around 8,000 Americans, found that 61 percent said they wouldn’t seek to own an electric vehicle because of charging logistics while 55 percent cited the number of miles a vehicle can go per charge. Another 52 percent said that the costs of buying and maintaining an electric vehicle are cost-prohibitive.
> 
> Another 46 percent of the respondents stated they have not heard of any financial incentives available for owners of electric vehicles.
> 
> “We found that 14 percent of American drivers say they would ‘definitely’ buy or lease an electric-only vehicle if they were to buy a vehicle today,” said Consumer Reports. “That’s up markedly from the 4 percent who said the same in a 2020 nationally representative survey from CR of 3,392 licensed U.S. drivers.”
> 
> According to recent figures from Kelly Blue Book, the average price of a new electric vehicle hovered at roughly $56,000. In contrast, the average price of a new compact was about $25,000 at about the same time. The average price of a new, non-electric SUV was $34,000, while the electric version was nearly $45,000.
> 
> Meanwhile, a recent report from data analysis and advisory firm J.D. Power, however, found that electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids may have more problems than internal combustion engines.
> 
> While internal combustion engine vehicles averaged 175 problems per 100 vehicles, this jumped to 239 among plug-in hybrids and 240 among electric vehicles, a June 28 press release of the J.D. Power 2022 U.S. Initial Quality Study stated. Lower scores represented higher-quality vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12ft |
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12ft.io


"Problems" as they note in the report, are quite often not defects, but owners issues with tech/features they don't understand. And it's good that we are not at 100% wanting to change. This should happen slowly.


----------



## TPD

Kyle said:


> I'm going to enjoy hearing about the increased brown-outs/black-outs in Commiefornia each year as the requirement for electrics rises.


It’s coming to Texas...








						Tesla asks Texans not to charge their car to avoid overloading national grid
					

Texas’ grid manager says there is a risk of it losing power reserves ‘with no market solution available’




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Sneakers

A possible solution to charging station inadequacies...  A robot system named Ziggy that rolls up to your car for charging, no fixed location for "pumps".  Can be deployed just about anywhere.


----------



## itsbob

itsbob said:


> We are increasing our Solar Array, I'm thinking the future holds sky high prices (and taxes) for electricity.  As both state and federal government start realizing the lost gas tax revenue, they will come after electricity.


To add.. we have a farmer that plants and harvests our front yard.  That allows us to be classified as Agricultural.. being AG we can produce up to 200% of our electrical needs using Solar, residential you cannot exceed 100%.. we'll be at 125% when done, and using enphase microinverters I can add panels any time we want without worrying about upgrading the converter


----------



## Sneakers

Sneakers said:


> Aptera has petitioned Congress to make the Tesla charger plug the US standard, superseding the CS1 and J1772 charging systems.


Further info, and you can sign the petition of you are so inclined.








						Sign the Petition
					

Congress: Tesla Superchargers and Plugs should be the U.S. standard for EVs




					www.change.org


----------



## glhs837

TPD said:


> It’s coming to Texas...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla asks Texans not to charge their car to avoid overloading national grid
> 
> 
> Texas’ grid manager says there is a risk of it losing power reserves ‘with no market solution available’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com


That's a crappy headline, since part of Texas's problem with its grid is the fact that they are isolated from the national grid. And just like CA< dont blame Tesla for issues resulting from shitty grid management.


----------



## Kyle

Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself


The Florida family found out a replacement for the electric car's battery would cost thousands

A family in Florida drove into a major problem after buying a used electric vehicle: the replacement battery for their dead car wound up costing more than the used car was purchased for.

Avery Siwinski is a 17-year-old who's parents spent $11,000 on a used Ford Focus Electric car, which is a 2014 model and had about 60,000 miles when it was bought, according to KVUE.

The teenager had the car for six months before it began giving her issues and the dashboard was flashing symbols.

"It was fine at first," Siwinski said. "I loved it so much. It was small and quiet and cute. And all the sudden it stopped working."

The problem? A battery for the electric car costs $14,000, according to the news outlet.

"Then we found out the batteries aren't even available," Siwinski said. "So it didn't matter. They could cost twice as much and we still couldn't get it."











						Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
					

A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## Clem72

Kyle said:


> Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
> 
> 
> The Florida family found out a replacement for the electric car's battery would cost thousands
> 
> A family in Florida drove into a major problem after buying a used electric vehicle: the replacement battery for their dead car wound up costing more than the used car was purchased for.
> 
> Avery Siwinski is a 17-year-old who's parents spent $11,000 on a used Ford Focus Electric car, which is a 2014 model and had about 60,000 miles when it was bought, according to KVUE.
> 
> The teenager had the car for six months before it began giving her issues and the dashboard was flashing symbols.
> 
> "It was fine at first," Siwinski said. "I loved it so much. It was small and quiet and cute. And all the sudden it stopped working."
> 
> The problem? A battery for the electric car costs $14,000, according to the news outlet.
> 
> "Then we found out the batteries aren't even available," Siwinski said. "So it didn't matter. They could cost twice as much and we still couldn't get it."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
> 
> 
> A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com


If it was a 2014 model it might still be within the 8 years required for the battery to be warrantied by fed. law (8 years/100k miles).

If it's not under warranty, then why not repair instead of replace? Tons of shops to EV battery repair or even full refurbishment.  10 minutes of googling indicates repair and rebalancing typically costs between $500 and $2000 depending on how many cells or modules are bad. Refurbishing is reusing the electronics but replacing all the cells and it looks to be about $1500 per 10kwh, so the focus electric (33kwh) would probably be a bit over $5k to fully refurbish.

And that's with battery repair places still fairly rare, as the industry progresses they may eventually become as common as transmission rebuild or engine boring shops, which I am sure would drive the price down further.


----------



## glhs837

Why the hell would you buy a 2014 anything electric? Sorry, but any EV that old is asking for it.


----------



## Sneakers

Found this, very good search tool for finding chargers.  You can use filters to get only Teslas or free or J1772, bunch of other filters.  There are more out there than you might realize.  Nearly every car dealer has one now, but a lot of the reviews say the dealers park ICE vehicles in front of the charger...

PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car!


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Keep a broader mindset. Looking at worst case scenarios can tilt things. I've not seen a report covering more than places like CA and Canada. Also keep in mind, the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) includes a lot of savings on maintenance items. They are significantly cheaper to maintain. And they are indeed greener when you do the math properly. The studies saying other wise forget things like oil usage, and the emissions counts for refining and shipping the fuel. Yes, EVs that charge using electricity generated by say natural gas face the same cost, but simple efficiencies of scale tell us that getting natural gas to a powerplant costs less than refining an equivalent amount of oil into gasoline and then using trucks to distribute that gasloine to various regional centers before using more trucks to deliver that gasoline to gas stations.
> 
> You need to look at it as a fuel life cycle, not just ignoring the stuff done to get that fuel to the vehicle. As far as batteries, again, its life cycle costs. These batteries can and will see the same sort of 100% recycling lead batteries do. In addition to finding second lives as storage devices. Which doesnt happen with gas engines, nobody takes the engine out of a scrapped car and uses it as a generator engine, do they?


lol who cares about green BS give me gas and diesel fuel


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> lol who cares about green BS give me gas and diesel fuel



Not sure what part of my post you consider "green BS". And you can have them. I have not advocated taking those away. Just let market forces drive the change. Folks can change when they are ready, and EVS that fit their budget and use case appear. For me, a 300-350 mile range pickup will work just fine. I don't tow long and heavy very often. My average daily mileage is under 50 miles.


----------



## kwillia

glhs837 said:


> Why the hell would you buy a 2014 anything electric? Sorry, but any EV that old is asking for it.


A car less than 20 years old and with just 60k miles on it should now be considered disposable. Interesting.


----------



## Kyle

kwillia said:


> A car less than 20 years old and with just 60k miles on it should now be considered disposable. Interesting.


Amazing isnt' it?

Greenies think that it is environmentally beneficial with a <10 year lifespan.

I've never retired or sold a vehicle I had with less than 250k miles on it and most of them were over 15 years if not older.


----------



## RoseRed

Kyle said:


> Amazing isnt' it?
> 
> Greenies think that it is environmentally beneficial with a <10 year lifespan.
> 
> I've never retired or sold a vehicle I had with less than 250k miles on it and most of them were over 15 years if not older.


What about all the classic cars that need gasoline.


----------



## glhs837

kwillia said:


> A car less than 20 years old and with just 60k miles on it should now be considered disposable. Interesting.


Well, a 2014 Tesla, no. But in 2014 everybody else's battery tech was rudimentary at best. Like the Nissan Leaf or E-Golf. 

Those were the first years for a new tech. You buy first gen of a new thing, you take chances. Of course, I think buying anyones EV other than Tesla is taking a gamble I'm jut not sure how the pouch cells are going to hold up over time. The Bolts seem to be doing well so far though. 





__





						Highest Mileage Bolt EV? - Chevrolet Bolt EV Forum
					






					www.mychevybolt.com
				




But heres why I wouldnt buy any other kind. Constant revision are optimization matter a lot. 









						Legendary Tesla Model S high-mileage road warrior is going for its 1 millionth mile
					

When Germany-based Hansjörg Gemmingen purchased his Tesla Model S P85 in 2014, the world was a far different place. Back then, the idea of an all-electric car hitting 1 million kilometers, or better yet, 1 million miles, is something widely considered farfetched. This farfetched scenario is fast...




					www.teslarati.com


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Amazing isnt' it?
> 
> *Greenies think that it is environmentally beneficial with a <10 year lifespan.*
> 
> I've never retired or sold a vehicle I had with less than 250k miles on it and most of them were over 15 years if not older.



No, they dont, EVs, properly designed, will run an ICE vehicle into the ground and cost a helluva lot less doing it. Not sure if the link works. Sorted nationally with highest mileage first, after sponsored hits of course. 





__





						Autotrader - page unavailable
					





					www.autotrader.com


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> Well, a 2014 Tesla, no. But in 2014 everybody else's battery tech was rudimentary at best. Like the Nissan Leaf or E-Golf.
> 
> Those were the first years for a new tech. You buy first gen of a new thing, you take chances. Of course, I think buying anyones EV other than Tesla is taking a gamble I'm jut not sure how the pouch cells are going to hold up over time. The Bolts seem to be doing well so far though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highest Mileage Bolt EV? - Chevrolet Bolt EV Forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mychevybolt.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But heres why I wouldnt buy any other kind. Constant revision are optimization matter a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Legendary Tesla Model S high-mileage road warrior is going for its 1 millionth mile
> 
> 
> When Germany-based Hansjörg Gemmingen purchased his Tesla Model S P85 in 2014, the world was a far different place. Back then, the idea of an all-electric car hitting 1 million kilometers, or better yet, 1 million miles, is something widely considered farfetched. This farfetched scenario is fast...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.teslarati.com


A lot of your arguments are geared towards those who are looking for and need a full ICE replacement, a one-and-done.  People like me... and there are many, are looking at EVs as an experiment, and in my case, a toy, not a replacement.  The Aptera I have a deposit on isn't even off the drawing board yet, and I'm fully aware of the 1st model year syndrome and willing to deal with it.  I fully expect that it won't last as long as a Telsa, but I'll already be looking forward to the next toy.


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> No, they dont, EVs, properly designed, will run an ICE vehicle into the ground and cost a helluva lot less doing it. Not sure if the link works. Sorted nationally with highest mileage first, after sponsored hits of course.



If a 2014 is already languishing in obsolescence, that is not "running an ICE into the ground".

If the used market on electrics is going to cause this much consternation with consumers, they're dealing themselves a death blow and will remain a niche market to elites looking for brownie points. 

Tesla is already doing itself in with regards to their resistance to make parts, materials and technical specifications available for after market repair.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> If a 2014 is already languishing in obsolescence, that is not "running an ICE into the ground".
> 
> If the used market on electrics is going to cause this much consternation with consumers, they're dealing themselves a death blow and will remain a niche market to elites looking for brownie points.
> 
> Tesla is already doing itself in with regards to their resistance to make parts, materials and technical specifications available for after market repair.


 
So everything else I said meant nothing?  I show you many 2014 Teslas running fine with close to or over 150K miles but you go back to this one Ford from when legacy makers were not even trying? 

I do agree that Tesla needs to do better with right to repair, and even make a pathway for salvaged cars to get back onto the Supercharger network.


----------



## Clem72

Sneakers said:


> A lot of your arguments are geared towards those who are looking for and need a full ICE replacement, a one-and-done.  People like me... and there are many, are looking at EVs as an experiment, and in my case, a toy, not a replacement.  The Aptera I have a deposit on isn't even off the drawing board yet, and I'm fully aware of the 1st model year syndrome and willing to deal with it.  I fully expect that it won't last as long as a Telsa, but I'll already be looking forward to the next toy.



Don't try to reason with these guys. They will tell you an EV needs to do everything they need, meanwhile they own 3-4 ICE vehicles. Why? Because no one vehicle does everything they want or need or maybe just for fun.  But far be it that someone buy an EV for fun.


----------



## Clem72

Kyle said:


> If a 2014 is already languishing in obsolescence, that is not "running an ICE into the ground".



This was one vehicle. One. So noteworthy they wrote a damn article about it.  Are you trying to tell me no one ever bought a used ICE vehicle that turned out to be a lemon and need extensive work right afterwards? Hell, my sons ex bought a brand new volvo that shet the bed at 400 miles and she had to fight the dealer for a year to get the engine replaced.


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> So everything else I said meant nothing?  I show you many 2014 Teslas running fine with close to or over 150K miles but you go back to this one Ford from when legacy makers were not even trying?
> 
> I do agree that Tesla needs to do better with right to repair, and even make a pathway for salvaged cars to get back onto the Supercharger network.


Tesla isn't the only car in the event.  If ALL of them dont' support a long term solution gonna get ugly.


----------



## Sneakers

Clem72 said:


> Don't try to reason with these guys.


I wasn't really, just offering a different mindset for wanting an EV.


----------



## Kyle

Clem72 said:


> *This was one vehicle. One. *So noteworthy they wrote a damn article about it.  Are you trying to tell me no one ever bought a used ICE vehicle that turned out to be a lemon and need extensive work right afterwards? Hell, my sons ex bought a brand new volvo that shet the bed at 400 miles and she had to fight the dealer for a year to get the engine replaced.


The way the article reads is that battery replacement does not exist for this MODEL not car.  Are you saying there was only ONE of this model ever made that year?

A lemon issue is an entirely different thing. This was a car looking for a part. The main part necessary for it to go vroom.   ... Ok, this one doesn't go Vroom but you get the idea.

I have a 2004 truck and there are parts available for it to be repaired.  There are entire warehouses full of parts available for cars made into the 50s and 60s and before still available. So I'm not sure where you want to go with that.


----------



## Toxick

Kyle said:


> Lithium shortages impact Tesla, other EV carmakers, numerous tech markets




And people with manic depression.


----------



## Kyle

Toxick said:


> And people with manic depression.


Let them drive Teslas.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Tesla isn't the only car in the event.  If ALL of them dont' support a long term solution gonna get ugly.



9, 226 of these E-Focii made over seven years..... And Ford didn't even make the drivetrain, they sourced that out to Magna. IMO, up til now, Tesla has been the only one in the game. Everybody else were spectators in the game, maybe they paid someone to drive them around the infield. That's why GM had a hard time with the Bolt recall, LG made the drive systems for them under contract.   

Legacy makers are just now getting it, that if they dont make the whole damn car, they are doomed. Still might if they don't learn the lessons of relentless change and optimization. Till now the numbers have been low enough they could just mail it in. If they want to produce hundreds of thousands of these, they need to support them just like "real" cars. But they have legacy stuff like unions and dealerships and multi-tier supplier chains weighing them down.


----------



## Kyle

Sneakers had it right.

This is a toy market for now and the close, foreseeable future.


----------



## kwillia

Kyle said:


> Sneakers had it right.
> 
> This is a toy market for now and the close, foreseeable future.


Yep, and and with the price of these ‘for limited use’ vehicles we expect to be able to keep them operational long term (10+ years) and affordably to justify the long term loan the typical consumer will be required to secure to obtain one.


----------



## Kyle

kwillia said:


> Yep, and and with the price of these ‘for limited use’ vehicles we expect to be able to keep them operational long term (10+ years) and affordably to justify the long term loan the typical consumer will be required to secure to obtain one.


I suppose if they tend to lease or constantly trade, long term reliability can be sacrificed. 

I tend to buy something and keep until it dies, or I've passed it to a family member and bought another new one for me.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Sneakers had it right.
> 
> This is a toy market for now and the close, foreseeable future.





kwillia said:


> Yep, and and with the price of these ‘for limited use’ vehicles we expect to be able to keep them operational long term (10+ years) and affordably to justify the long term loan the typical consumer will be required to secure to obtain one.



At 5% of sales and almost doubling over last year, its not a toy market. Not anymore. Tesla almost outsold Subaru last quarter. 









						EV Sales Hit New Record in Q2 2022 - Cox Automotive Inc.
					

This much we know: New-vehicle sales in the second quarter struggled, up only modestly from the first quarter and down more than 20% from Q2 2021. The reasons are well documented – tight inventory, high prices, consumer sentiment dropping. There were a few positive notes in the Q2 sales numbers...




					www.coxautoinc.com
				




No reason one you buy this year, or bought in the last three years to not last considerably longer. 









						How do 300K-mile Teslas hold up? This EV fleet operator has some interesting data
					

The highest-mileage Teslas on the planet aren't consumer cars, but rather fleet vehicles owned by companies like Tesloop.




					www.autoweek.com
				




And those were slightly older models, they keep getting better. The Model 3 and Y have bodies designed for 1,000,000 miles, and the batteries are expected to last 300k-500K.  Of course, we'll need some years to pass to see how that will play out, but there's a 2014 Model S that's over on a million miles already. Long term enough? 









						Tesla Model S Early Adopter Has Now Traveled Over 1 Million Miles
					

We figured this was inevitable, as this Tesla owner has been keeping the world apprised of his Model S mileage over the years. What an epic achievement.




					insideevs.com


----------



## Kyle

This reminds me of getting into a discussion with one of the Sig fan boys. 

You’re the perfect salesman. 

Or disciple.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> This reminds me of getting into a discussion with one of the Sig fan boys.
> 
> You’re the perfect salesman.
> 
> Or disciple.



Nope, not blind to what they do wrong. Sorry if I bring facts to the discussion


----------



## Kinnakeet

Gas and Diesel, to hell with electric, EV's cannot out perform a combustion engine in my opinion


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> Nope, not blind to what they do wrong. Sorry if I bring facts to the discussion


You call it "facts", I call it Dogma.   Potato/Tamato.


----------



## Clem72

glhs837 said:


> Of course, we'll need some years to pass to see how that will play out, but there's a 2014 Model S that's over on a million miles already. Long term enough?



Though that one doesn't prove what you think it does. One battery swap and 2 motor replacements on that vehicle.


----------



## itsbob

Kinnakeet said:


> Gas and Diesel, to hell with electric, EV's cannot out perform a combustion engine in my opinion


A diesel hybrid without DPF would be the bom-Diggity.. Imagine getting 100 MPG with a diesel auto, or truck.  No need for DPF if you are getting 100 MPG.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> You call it "facts", I call it Dogma.   Potato/Tamato.



Facts are verifiable things, dogma isn't. : ) Just because they conflict with ideas you have that are not fact based doesn't make the untrue. 



Clem72 said:


> Though that one doesn't prove what you think it does. One battery swap and 2 motor replacements on that vehicle.



In a million miles? How many ICE vehicles make that on the original engine and trans?


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> Facts are verifiable things, dogma isn't. : ) Just because they conflict with ideas you have that are not fact based doesn't make the untrue.


What have I stated that is not factual?


glhs837 said:


> In a million miles? How many ICE vehicles make that on the original engine and trans?


A lot of commercial trucks but as for public, most people dont' drive enough to make it that far.


----------



## Ken King

Kyle said:


> A lot of commercial trucks but as for public, most people dont' drive enough to make it that far.


Yep, ain't got the miles but I've got the years.  My daily driver is 44 years old (and I still can't get an extended warranty for it no matter how many times they call).


----------



## Kyle

Ken King said:


> Yep, ain't got the miles but I've got the years.  My daily driver is 44 years old (and I still can't get an extended warranty for it no matter how many times they call).


I've had many that I put over the 250k mark, and likely have over a million miles but I also spent a good number of years driving a truck, and even when I changed careers to line work, I was still driving a truck for part of my days then. 

A friend of mine still does over the road and I'm certain the mileage he clocked in was way higher.


----------



## GURPS

Ford Plans To Cut 8,000 Jobs So It Can Fund EV Push: Report​

The cuts, though still pending, are expected to be implemented in the coming weeks and will affect salaried workers, as well as the automaker’s new Ford Blue unit that was created in March to oversee internal combustion engine operations, Bloomberg reported.

“To deliver our Ford+ transformation and lead this exciting and disruptive new era of electric and connected vehicles, we remain focused on reshaping our work and modernizing our organization across all automotive business units and across the company,” Ford spokesman T.R. Reid said, adding, “As part of this, we have laid out clear targets to lower our cost structure to ensure we are lean and fully competitive with the best in the industry.”

While Ford did not comment on the reported upcoming layoffs, the company has a meeting scheduled for Thursday where it’s expected to update shareholders on the future of its EV production. The company wants to reach 600,000 EVs produced by next year and two million EVs by 2026.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> What have I stated that is not factual?
> 
> A lot of commercial trucks but as for public, most people dont' drive enough to make it that far.



The issue is that you take one true fact that applies to one narrow situation, then make the case that it applies to every EV. 

Post 8, someone took the absolute worst case charging situation and acts as if it applies to all EVs. 

Post 97, equating one compliance cars issues with modern mass produced EVs. 

Post 104, 10 year lifespan

/////while those things are factual in that one instance, they do not apply globally to all EVs.


----------



## glhs837

This is why I don't recommend buying anything else if you like to travel. Once you remove the other networks level 2 chargers, the contrast is clear. The main competition is at 800 locations, with fewer plugs per station, and hoping to be where Tesla is in a year or two. But the rate of installs is increasing for Tesla, with prefabbed chargers already in concrete bases ready to drop in and hook up. 

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesl...at-could-be-a-tipping-point-for-electric-cars


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> The issue is that you take one true fact that applies to one narrow situation, then make the case that it applies to every EV.
> 
> Post 8, someone took the absolute worst case charging situation and acts as if it applies to all EVs.
> 
> Post 97, equating one compliance cars issues with modern mass produced EVs.
> 
> Post 104, 10 year lifespan
> 
> /////while those things are factual in that one instance, they do not apply globally to all EVs.



I’m stating that all these very simple, easily anticipated, problems seem to crop up.

Other than the power source, car manufacturing has been going on for over 100 years. These problems should not be cropping up at all. It doesn’t matter what the product is, parts fail and parts need to be replaced.

As for the power source… This hard ass push to everything electric is a boondoggle in itself. The grid cannot support it. 

Unless they decide they’re going to go nuclear, and use existing gas, coal and other resources…It won’t support it today, tomorrow or 10 years from now. It takes considerable time to build an electric supply. It’s not flipping a switch.

As I said many times before, these things are great if you live in the city or don’t travel much.

But if you ever wanna actually travel anywhere theyre a perpetual cluster **** on the road. Who the **** would want to stop every three or four hours to ****ing sit for 45 minutes to an hour. You’ll never get anywhere.

As I said before they are a toy.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> I’m stating that all these very simple, easily anticipated, problems seem to crop up.
> 
> Other than the power source, car manufacturing has been going on for over 100 years. These problems should not be cropping up at all. It doesn’t matter what the product is, parts fail and parts need to be replaced.
> 
> As for the power source… This hard ass push to everything electric is a boondoggle in itself. The grid cannot support it.
> 
> Unless they decide they’re going to go nuclear, and use existing gas, coal and other resources…It won’t support it today, tomorrow or 10 years from now. It takes considerable time to build an electric supply. It’s not flipping a switch.
> 
> As I said many times before, these things are great if you live in the city or don’t travel much.
> 
> But if you ever wanna actually travel anywhere theyre a perpetual cluster **** on the road. Who the **** would want to stop every three or four hours to ****ing sit for 45 minutes to an hour. You’ll never get anywhere.
> 
> As I said before they are a toy.



My point is that for modern EVs, a lot of these things are not problems. And in case you haven't noticed, regular cars have plenty of problems also. Just the nature of mass producing millions of complex devices. Fires, engine and transmission failures on brand new cars are not uncommon, nor recalls to fix them.









						Ford recalls 100,000 U.S. vehicles for fire risks, expands earlier recall
					

Ford Motor Co said on Friday it is issuing a new recall for 100,000 U.S. hybrid vehicles over fire risks, and expanding an earlier recall after a series of reported fires.




					www.reuters.com
				






			https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/05/gm-hit-with-eight-speed-automatic-transmission-lawsuit/
		










						Stellantis issues two recalls for combined 256,000 U.S. vehicles
					

Stellantis is recalling an estimated 256,404 Chrysler vehicles in the U.S. following a pair of safety defects being discovered in certain models that could affect fuel supply or rearview image display.




					www.autonews.com
				




Most people do stop every three to four hours, although if you have a 300 mile range...

Say I'm heading to Columbia SC to visit family.

Google nav says 438 miles, and 7 hours and 30 minutes. Some people might drive that straight through without a pee and snack break, but not many, I think.



			https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.208318,-76.431046/Columbia,+South+Carolina/@36.1894319,-80.9770908,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m10!4m9!1m1!4e1!1m5!1m1!1s0x88f8a5697931d1e3:0xf32808f4b379fa96!2m2!1d-81.0348144!2d34.0007104!3e0
		


Tesla nav says I'll take three charging break of 20, 15, and 30 minutes at Petersburg VA, Smithfield NC, and Lumberton NC. thats an hour and five minutes over eight hours, which sorts of stops a lot of people might take anyway. Watch a little bit of Neflix, maybe ply a game, 30 minutes passes pretty quickly. Face it people road trip in these things all the time, its really not as arduous as people who have not make it out to be.









						Go Anywhere | Tesla
					

Stay charged anywhere you go, with access to our global charging networks. Explore a route and we’ll find the best locations to keep you charged along the way and upon arrival.




					www.tesla.com


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> My point is that for modern EVs, a lot of these things are not problems. And in case you haven't noticed, regular cars have plenty of problems also. Just the nature of mass producing millions of complex devices. Fires, engine and transmission failures on brand new cars are not uncommon, nor recalls to fix them.


I’ve never heard of anyone purchasing a gasoline powered car that couldn’t get a major part for it eight years after it was built. Except maybe the Yugo.

That being said am I to assume that we should expect electric cars support structure to be equivalent to the Yugo?


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> people do stop every three to four hours, although if you have a 300 mile range...


A stop for 10 minutes to fuel up, piss break and hit the road again.

Not an hour.

and I really don’t wanna stop to watch Netflix or play a game. I want to get where the **** I’m going.

i’d be willing to bet by 2050 you’re still going to see at least 30% if not 40% of the vehicles on the road being gasoline.

There are a whole range of things besides cars that they’re still not going to be able to push this to in spite of their desire to force their religion on everyone.

Hell these dumb ass Democrats want the military to be running electric trucks and tanks for combat.  

Agriculture, construction, military… Most of these things are not going to be able to comply with the green agenda.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> I’ve never heard of anyone purchasing a gasoline powered car that couldn’t get a major part for it eight years after it was built. Except maybe the Yugo.
> 
> That being said am I to assume that we should expect electric cars support structure to be equivalent to the Yugo?



Nope, but don't expect that level of support for a car that was made in very very limited quantities for compliance reasons. Less than 9,000 made over 8 years. Can you name me any other production car made in such limited quantities? I owned one, my 1987 GLHS. Guess what, the special limited parts for that car, shift knob, intercooler, and some other things, made by or for Shelby Automobiles, those things went away after he folded and Dodge never bought anymore. That's my point, to equate this unicorn car with ones made in the hundreds of thousands is not realistic. 


20118 [59]2012685 [59]20131,738 [60]20141,964 [61]20151,582 [62]2016872 [63]20171,817 [64]2018560 [6


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> A stop for 10 minutes to fuel up, piss break and hit the road again.
> 
> Not an hour.
> 
> and I really don’t wanna stop to watch Netflix or play a game. I want to get where the **** I’m going.
> 
> i’d be willing to bet by 2050 you’re still going to see at least 30% if not 40% of the vehicles on the road being gasoline.
> 
> There are a whole range of things besides cars that they’re still not going to be able to push this to in spite of their desire to force their religion on everyone.
> 
> Hell these dumb ass Democrats want the military to be running electric trucks and tanks for combat.
> 
> Agriculture, construction, military… Most of these things are not going to be able to comply with the green agenda.



Right, but you are not everyone  <ost people stop more. And we agree, yet again, that this conversion shouldnt be forced.


----------



## Kyle

Okay so you equate specialty modification of an existing car model to Normal production?

And also… The range of my truck, as well as the last four has been at least 600 miles each. The 92 had a range of 740.

I see the biggest problem is the electric religion is overpromising and under delivering and the excuse is, the solution it’s always just off in the future.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Okay so you equate specialty modification of an existing car model to Normal production?
> 
> And also… The range of my truck, as well as the last four has been at least 600 miles each. The 92 had a range of 740.
> 
> I see the biggest problem is the electric religion is overpromising and under delivering and the excuse is, the solution it’s always just off in the future.


Sure do, when the part you can't get is part of that specialty modification. That EV conversion was done by Magna. Not Ford. 

And not really fair to compare a truck with a diesel and a huge tank to a passenger car, is it? And I don't pay attention to promises. Just what's on the road now.


----------



## Kyle

glhs837 said:


> Sure do, when the part you can't get is part of that specialty modification. That EV conversion was done by Magna. Not Ford.
> 
> And not really fair to compare a truck with a diesel and a huge tank to a passenger car, is it? And I don't pay attention to promises. Just what's on the road now.


Actually none of mine are diesel. They just have large tanks and fuel efficient gasoline engines. Although I don’t think this coyote is what I would really call fuel efficient, considering my propensity to step into it.


----------



## jrt_ms1995

glhs837 said:


> Tesla nav says I'll take three charging break of 20, 15, and 30 minutes at Petersburg VA, Smithfield NC, and Lumberton NC.


I wouldn't spend 30 minutes in Lumberton if there were any other option!


----------



## Kyle

jrt_ms1995 said:


> I wouldn't spend 30 minutes in Lumberton if there were any other option!


I was going to ask why, but then google...  https://www.google.com/search?q=lum...HdNFCoAQ_AUoAnoECAIQBA&biw=1920&bih=937&dpr=1

Pretty lively for a town of only 20000 people.


----------



## Sneakers

Very interesting talk, but most of what he says are things we've already discussed regarding the actual cost of building an electric vehicle.  But he misses the mark completely with his "solution".  He take great care to extrapolate the costs to build a battery, but does not use the same concept for solar panels and windmills, the mining, the reduction, the shipping from overseas, the loss of vegetation and groundwater for acres and acres of solar farms...


----------



## spr1975wshs

EV bus in Hamden, CT the other day.


----------



## Sneakers

spr1975wshs said:


> EV bus in Hamden, CT the other day.
> View attachment 165350


That'll buff out...


----------



## glhs837

spr1975wshs said:


> EV bus in Hamden, CT the other day.
> View attachment 165350



Yep, things with stored energy catch fire. Poorly designed ones more so. I find it very odd that no article mentions who makes these buses. With tons of govt money vying for EV buses, people willing to just "send it" in the way of design can make a lot of money.


----------



## GURPS

Electric Vehicles May Present Major Problem During Natural Disaster Evacuations: Experts​

A report from Transportation Research published in ScienceDirect headlined “Can we evacuate from hurricanes with electric vehicles?” found that Florida—which often bears the force of hurricanes—may not have enough power to cope during an evacuation.

_*“If the majority of the evacuating vehicles were EVs, Florida would face a serious challenge in power supply,” *_the report said.

It added that could affect six out of the nine main power authorities, especially those in mid-Florida, and “could induce cascading failure of the entire power network” throughout the state.

In California, the two main natural disasters are earthquakes and wildfires.

Both are short-notice events that have the potential to knock out the power grid with no warning, making it especially difficult, if not impossible, to charge a Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV),” a case study from California Polytechnic State University found.

In 2020, sales of electric vehicles (EVs) reached a record 3 million, according to the International Energy Agency (IEA). And, EV sales could increase to 23 million by 2030, thanks partly to the Biden administration’s stated goal of half of all new vehicles sold in 2030 being zero-emissions vehicles.

The increase in EV adoption makes the issue of natural disaster evacuations more pressing.

However, according to a panel of experts at the 2022 National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), the problem has yet to be solved.


----------



## Sneakers

My initial thought was to have a generator and drag it along with you during the evac.  But the first time you broke it out and fired it up, you'd be swamped with electric zombies.  "kwh.......need kwh......."


----------



## Kyle

GURPS said:


> Electric Vehicles May Present Major Problem During Natural Disaster Evacuations: Experts​



"But don't worry... It's Zero Emissions!"


----------



## glhs837

Electric Vehicles May Present Major Problem During Natural Disaster Evacuations: Experts​

A report from Transportation Research published in ScienceDirect headlined “Can we evacuate from hurricanes with electric vehicles?” found that Florida—which often bears the force of hurricanes—may not have enough power to cope during an evacuation.

_*“If the majority of the evacuating vehicles were EVs, Florida would face a serious challenge in power supply,” *_the report said.

It added that could affect six out of the nine main power authorities, especially those in mid-Florida, and “could induce cascading failure of the entire power network” throughout the state.

In California, the two main natural disasters are earthquakes and wildfires.

Both are short-notice events that have the potential to knock out the power grid with no warning, making it especially difficult, if not impossible, to charge a Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV),” a case study from California Polytechnic State University found.

In 2020, sales of electric vehicles (EVs) reached a record 3 million, according to the International Energy Agency (IEA). And, EV sales could increase to 23 million by 2030, thanks partly to the Biden administration’s stated goal of half of all new vehicles sold in 2030 being zero-emissions vehicles.

The increase in EV adoption makes the issue of natural disaster evacuations more pressing.

However, according to a panel of experts at the 2022 National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), the problem has yet to be solved.


GURPS said:


> Electric Vehicles May Present Major Problem During Natural Disaster Evacuations: Experts​
> 
> A report from Transportation Research published in ScienceDirect headlined “Can we evacuate from hurricanes with electric vehicles?” found that Florida—which often bears the force of hurricanes—may not have enough power to cope during an evacuation.
> 
> _*“If the majority of the evacuating vehicles were EVs, Florida would face a serious challenge in power supply,” *_the report said.
> 
> It added that could affect six out of the nine main power authorities, especially those in mid-Florida, and “could induce cascading failure of the entire power network” throughout the state.
> 
> In California, the two main natural disasters are earthquakes and wildfires.
> 
> Both are short-notice events that have the potential to knock out the power grid with no warning, making it especially difficult, if not impossible, to charge a Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV),” a case study from California Polytechnic State University found.
> 
> In 2020, sales of electric vehicles (EVs) reached a record 3 million, according to the International Energy Agency (IEA). And, EV sales could increase to 23 million by 2030, thanks partly to the Biden administration’s stated goal of half of all new vehicles sold in 2030 being zero-emissions vehicles.
> 
> The increase in EV adoption makes the issue of natural disaster evacuations more pressing.
> 
> However, according to a panel of experts at the 2022 National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), the problem has yet to be solved.



Yep, 2017s grid most likely couldn't handle 2030s emergency demands. Shocker, really. Posit a 100% ev vehicle fleet that wont exist for a decade at least, then place that load onto a grid from five years ago. Again, shocked the math doesnt work out. I will point out that smart vehicle managment sees a storm coming, and opens up battery percentage normally reserved for battery health and encourages you to precharge to the max. And I'll also note that 250-300 miles should see you well clear of most events.


----------



## Sneakers

This is pretty cool.  It would make long distance driving in an EV a little easier than just pulling over and charging.  I'll bet their next generation has sleeping pods.  The US might take a lessen...


----------



## GURPS

For example, as the experts at powerthefuture.com point out, here are 10 facts about EVs the Left doesn’t want Americans to know:

*1.* EVs are powered by fossil fuels. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel-based power plants — coal, oil, or natural gas — create about 60% of the nation’s electrical grid, while nuclear power accounts for nearly 20%.

*2. *The batteries of EVs rely on cobalt. An estimated 70% of the global supply of cobalt emanates from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a country with deplorable working conditions, especially for children.

*3.* A study released earlier this year by an environmental group showed that nearly one-third of San Francisco’s electric charging stations were non-functioning. The population of San Francisco represents roughly two percent of California.

*4.* Supporters of the California law admit there will be a 40% increase in demand for electricity, adding further strain to the grid and requiring increased costs for power and infrastructure.

*5.* According to one researcher, the strain of adding an EV is similar to adding “1 or 2 air conditioners” to your home, except an EV requires power year-round.

*6.* Today, 20 million American families, or one in six, have fallen behind on their electric bills, the highest amount ever.

*7.* Utility companies will need to add $5,800 in upgrades for every new EV for the next eight years in order to compensate for the demand for power. All customers will shoulder this cost.

*8.* The average price for an electric vehicle is currently $66,000, up more than 13% in just the last year, costing an average of $18,000 more than the average combustible engine. Meanwhile, the median household income is $67,521. For African American families, the average is $45,870, and for Hispanic households, $55,321.

*9.* A 2022 study found that the majority of EV charging occurs at home, leaving those who live in multi-family dwellings (apartments) at a real disadvantage for charging.

*10.* The same study also noted that many drivers charge their EVs overnight when solar power is less available on the grid.











						10 Facts Electric Vehicle Advocates Don't Want You to Know
					

There are a host of reasons why the Left is absolutely determined to force Americans out of their privately owned, gasoline-powered cars and trucks and into unreliable public transportation and costly...




					pjmedia.com


----------



## Kyle

Get ready for FORCED brown-outs and black-outs nationwide in a few years.


How many Billions of $$ do you think the Democrat Masters have invested in Electric generation and EVs to prompt them to force everyone into this corner?


----------



## DaSDGuy

Kyle said:


> Get ready for FORCED brown-outs and black-outs nationwide in a few years.


Do insurance companies write policies to cover loss of refrigerator/freezer contents?


----------



## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> Do insurance companies write policies to cover loss of refrigerator/freezer contents?


Most do.  Usually covered in your homeowner's policy.


----------



## GURPS

Kyle said:


> Get ready for FORCED brown-outs and black-outs nationwide in a few years.




you do not need electricity ..... you will eat boog paste made with flour and water


----------



## DaSDGuy

Sneakers said:


> Most do.  Usually covered in your homeowner's policy.


It won't matter much I guess.  After you lose the contents of your refrigerator and/or freezer multiple times they will just cancel your policy.


----------



## Sneakers

People are starting to prepare for the brownouts/blackouts by investing in alternative energy, specifically solar.  But as more people buy into solar, the higher the demand for the rare elements needed to produce them, the higher the cost in both manufacturing and resources, and are actually exacerbating problems, getting further away from being 'green'.  It's a no-win situation if you want to continue to maintain your current lifestyle.  Those 'odd' people who live in shacks off-grid are best suited to weather this storm.


----------



## RoseRed

Don’t Charge that Electric Vehicle: California Braces for Energy Shortage Thru Labor Day​








						Don't Charge that Electric Vehicle: California Braces for Energy Shortage Thru Labor Day
					

California will have "Flex Alerts" through Labor Day, and residents will be asked not to charge electric vehicles at certain times.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## Sneakers

RoseRed said:


> Don’t Charge that Electric Vehicle: California Braces for Energy Shortage Thru Labor Day​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't Charge that Electric Vehicle: California Braces for Energy Shortage Thru Labor Day
> 
> 
> California will have "Flex Alerts" through Labor Day, and residents will be asked not to charge electric vehicles at certain times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


Wanna bet they start cutting back power to the charge stations?  Or even turn them off?


----------



## RoseRed

Sneakers said:


> Wanna bet they start cutting back power to the charge stations?  Or even turn them off?


I'm sure it'll happen.

*Two years ago, Newsom urged Californians to “sober up” about the limitations of solar and wind power*, during another late summer energy shortage that resulted in rolling blackouts across much of the state. *The state has not expanded its energy sources since then*, though it has improved plans for energy shortages and expanded battery capacity.


----------



## GURPS

Dealership Quotes $30,000 to Replace Battery in a $10,000 Chevrolet Volt​


The quote in question comes from Roger Dean Chevrolet in Florida, and regards a battery replacement for a 2012 Chevrolet Bolt. The cost of the new battery itself comes in at $26,853.99. Further charges include $33.98 for coolant and $1,200 in labor. Add tax and the total bill comes to $30,842.15. It's a steep price, particularly when a brand-new Chevrolet Bolt with a far larger battery can be had for a base price of $26,595.

The enormous figure raised questions when the quote was posted online, with commenters on Reddit and beyond raising questions as to its authenticity. However, fact-checking website Snopes was able to confirm with the dealership that the quote was indeed legitimate.


----------



## Kyle

GURPS said:


> Dealership Quotes $30,000 to Replace Battery in a $10,000 Chevrolet Volt​
> 
> 
> The quote in question comes from Roger Dean Chevrolet in Florida, and regards a battery replacement for a 2012 Chevrolet Bolt. The cost of the new battery itself comes in at $26,853.99. Further charges include $33.98 for coolant and $1,200 in labor. Add tax and the total bill comes to $30,842.15. It's a steep price, particularly when a brand-new Chevrolet Bolt with a far larger battery can be had for a base price of $26,595.
> 
> The enormous figure raised questions when the quote was posted online, with commenters on Reddit and beyond raising questions as to its authenticity. However, fact-checking website Snopes was able to confirm with the dealership that the quote was indeed legitimate.


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> Dealership Quotes $30,000 to Replace Battery in a $10,000 Chevrolet Volt​
> 
> 
> The quote in question comes from Roger Dean Chevrolet in Florida, and regards a battery replacement for a 2012 Chevrolet Bolt. The cost of the new battery itself comes in at $26,853.99. Further charges include $33.98 for coolant and $1,200 in labor. Add tax and the total bill comes to $30,842.15. It's a steep price, particularly when a brand-new Chevrolet Bolt with a far larger battery can be had for a base price of $26,595.
> 
> The enormous figure raised questions when the quote was posted online, with commenters on Reddit and beyond raising questions as to its authenticity. However, fact-checking website Snopes was able to confirm with the dealership that the quote was indeed legitimate.



Yep, the EV tech (GM sourced from someone else) of ten years ago wasnt awesome. No shocker there. And it was expensive, and still is. One thing that's happened in the intervening decade is that the cost of making these packs has dropped. So this headline not really relevant to todays EVs, and less so to future ones.


----------



## jrt_ms1995

GURPS said:


> you do not need electricity ..... you will eat boog paste made with _road kill, soylent green, lithium mine tailings, and wastewater_


Corrected


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> For example, as the experts at powerthefuture.com point out, here are 10 facts about EVs the Left doesn’t want Americans to know:
> 
> *1.* EVs are powered by fossil fuels. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), fossil fuel-based power plants — coal, oil, or natural gas — create about 60% of the nation’s electrical grid, while nuclear power accounts for nearly 20%.
> 
> *2. *The batteries of EVs rely on cobalt. An estimated 70% of the global supply of cobalt emanates from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a country with deplorable working conditions, especially for children.
> 
> *3.* A study released earlier this year by an environmental group showed that nearly one-third of San Francisco’s electric charging stations were non-functioning. The population of San Francisco represents roughly two percent of California.
> 
> *4.* Supporters of the California law admit there will be a 40% increase in demand for electricity, adding further strain to the grid and requiring increased costs for power and infrastructure.
> 
> *5.* According to one researcher, the strain of adding an EV is similar to adding “1 or 2 air conditioners” to your home, except an EV requires power year-round.
> 
> *6.* Today, 20 million American families, or one in six, have fallen behind on their electric bills, the highest amount ever.
> 
> *7.* Utility companies will need to add $5,800 in upgrades for every new EV for the next eight years in order to compensate for the demand for power. All customers will shoulder this cost.
> 
> *8.* The average price for an electric vehicle is currently $66,000, up more than 13% in just the last year, costing an average of $18,000 more than the average combustible engine. Meanwhile, the median household income is $67,521. For African American families, the average is $45,870, and for Hispanic households, $55,321.
> 
> *9.* A 2022 study found that the majority of EV charging occurs at home, leaving those who live in multi-family dwellings (apartments) at a real disadvantage for charging.
> 
> *10.* The same study also noted that many drivers charge their EVs overnight when solar power is less available on the grid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Facts Electric Vehicle Advocates Don't Want You to Know
> 
> 
> There are a host of reasons why the Left is absolutely determined to force Americans out of their privately owned, gasoline-powered cars and trucks and into unreliable public transportation and costly...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pjmedia.com



Nobody is hiding these things. The industry is rapidly moving towards batteries that require either far less or no cobalt. And yep, multi family housing needs to accommodate charging. And the grid needs to grow. And add storage to buffer generation against demand. 

All of this isnt a condemnation of EVs, its really just advocating to a market based change. Which a lot of EV proponents already advocate. 

And most know where the electricity comes from, but the key there is that no matter what you generate it with, its more efficient than burning gas since the plants generating it operate more efficiently than any mobile engine ever can. .


----------



## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> Yep, the EV tech (GM sourced from someone else) of ten years ago wasnt awesome. No shocker there. And it was expensive, and still is. *One thing that's happened in the intervening decade is that the cost of making these packs has dropped. So this headline not really relevant to todays EVs, and less so to future ones.*


Please refer to post #169


----------



## Sneakers

New vehicles also have subsidies and rebates lowering their cost by thousands.  Parts like battery packs do not, full price.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Please refer to post #169



Hard to argue with such a cogent response.


----------



## GURPS

Electric shock: Spike in U.K. energy prices push cost of running EVs above gas-powered cars​

Charging electric vehicles in Britain soon will be more expensive than filling up gasoline-powered cars thanks to soaring electricity costs — an economic switcheroo that could be a harbinger of shrinking financial benefits for Americans who go green.

British energy regulators told electricity consumers to expect to pay 80% more beginning Oct. 1. The national price cap on residential electricity will send the average bill from about $190 per month to an estimated $343 per month, or more than $4,000 per year.


The shocking price hike stems from the nation’s limited reserves and Russia’s cutoff of one of the region’s major sources of electricity generation: natural gas. British energy prices eclipsed those of many other Europeans because the nation lacks domestic energy storage and production of natural gas, nuclear and renewables, making it more reliant on imports.


----------



## GURPS

California asks residents not to charge electric vehicles, days after announcing gas car ban​


----------



## Kyle

Looks like Califoolya is gonna have to find alternatives for their plug ins.


----------



## glhs837

So the real takeaway here is don't elect idiots to run your grids.


----------



## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> So the real takeaway here is don't elect idiots to run your grids.




that leaves California out


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> that leaves California out



And Texas.


----------



## jrt_ms1995

Kyle said:


> Looks like Califoolya is gonna have to find alternatives for their plug ins.


Or ban those awful EVs and go with


----------



## itsbob

GURPS said:


> Electric shock: Spike in U.K. energy prices push cost of running EVs above gas-powered cars​
> 
> Charging electric vehicles in Britain soon will be more expensive than filling up gasoline-powered cars thanks to soaring electricity costs — an economic switcheroo that could be a harbinger of shrinking financial benefits for Americans who go green.
> 
> British energy regulators told electricity consumers to expect to pay 80% more beginning Oct. 1. The national price cap on residential electricity will send the average bill from about $190 per month to an estimated $343 per month, or more than $4,000 per year.
> 
> 
> The shocking price hike stems from the nation’s limited reserves and Russia’s cutoff of one of the region’s major sources of electricity generation: natural gas. British energy prices eclipsed those of many other Europeans because the nation lacks domestic energy storage and production of natural gas, nuclear and renewables, making it more reliant on imports.


They have a breeding program ramping up now, they figure by 2026 they will have populated the country with enough Unicorns that they will harvest the Unicorn Farts to power their grid..


----------



## GURPS

The 17 states that follow California's emission standards and might now BAN gas cars - as extreme weather sees electric car owners stopped from charging vehicles in the Golden State​
*This week, the California Air Resources Board voted to band the sale of gasoline cars in the state by 2035*
*Now, the 17 other states that follow the Golden State's emission standards on vehicles are faced with making similar decisions*
*It's thought that only five, Massachusetts, New York, Washington, Oregon and Vermont will likely follow California *
*However states that follow California's older emission standard rules such as Pennsylvania and Colorado have said that they will not be adopting the ban*


----------



## Kyle

No Surprise Maryland and New Jersey are on that list.

Yet another reason to leave the state at retirement.


----------



## GURPS




----------



## Sneakers

I just got and tested an additional 400 watts of solar panels, specifically intended for recharging my EV.  There is a strong rumor that because the Aptera already has solar panels built-in, they might provide a jack to plug in your own panels, up to 1500 watts.  That would be outstanding.  But if they don't, I can still convert to either 120 or 240VAC and charge from that, either directly in the sun during the day, or with a battery bank overnight.

A total of 670 watts, assume 75% of that is a reality (sun angle, electrical losses, etc...), is a little over 500 watts, 5 hours of charge per day (more in summer, less in winter) is 2.5 kilowatt-hours of power average available during the day to funnel into the EV or charge batteries.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> View attachment 166067


Ah.  Perpetual energy.


----------



## Sneakers

MG has a couple of offerings, not expensive.  From his (long, 30 min) video, it seems there are more options for EVs in Europe than there are in the US.


----------



## Sneakers

Now THIS is what I'm talkin' about....  Always wanted a real dune buggy...









						2024 Meyers Manx 2.0 Electric: The Original Dune Buggy, Remastered
					

The all-electric dune buggy Volkswagen refused to build is finally here thanks to the designer of the New Beetle.




					www.motortrend.com


----------



## TPD

Wife and I just got back from a 10 day road trip covering 5 states and over 1700 miles.  We sorta kinda looked at parts of the trip as if we had an EV and how that would have worked out for us.  Well it would have worked out like CRAP and added a lot of headache and sitting time waiting to charge up.  2 of the 4 places we stayed at had no charging stations.  None of the places we stopped to eat had charging stations.   We don't want to be stuck planning a vacation around charging our mode of transportation.  Vacation is supposed to be sorta stress free, not so much if you have an EV you gotta worry about charging every 300 miles and stopping at major chain restaurants to eat garbage and plug in.  Our current car goes more than 400 miles on a charge of gas and allows us to stop at 'mom & pop' restaurants to savor the local flavors.


----------



## glhs837

TPD said:


> Wife and I just got back from a 10 day road trip covering 5 states and over 1700 miles.  We sorta kinda looked at parts of the trip as if we had an EV and how that would have worked out for us.  Well it would have worked out like CRAP and added a lot of headache and sitting time waiting to charge up.  2 of the 4 places we stayed at had no charging stations.  None of the places we stopped to eat had charging stations.   We don't want to be stuck planning a vacation around charging our mode of transportation.  Vacation is supposed to be sorta stress free, not so much if you have an EV you gotta worry about charging every 300 miles and stopping at major chain restaurants to eat garbage and plug in.  Our current car goes more than 400 miles on a charge of gas and allows us to stop at 'mom & pop' restaurants to savor the local flavors.



So how did you look at at? Tesla charging or other?  Of course, even in a Tesla, that trips gonna add charge time.


----------



## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> So how did you look at at? Tesla charging or other?  Of course, even in a Tesla, that trips gonna add charge time.


Evidently he looked at it like a person on vacation looking to charge their EV. Maybe he should have looked at it as someone who is so pro-EV that he should ignore the simple fact that the infrastructure for EV is as real as unicorn farts.


----------



## TPD

glhs837 said:


> So how did you look at at? Tesla charging or other?  Of course, even in a Tesla, that trips gonna add charge time.


I looked at it as being convenient- was there a charger where I stopped to eat, sleep, pee, or play?  And most of the time there wasn’t.   Vacations can be hard enough to plan - don’t need to add anymore complications or headaches.


----------



## Kyle

TPD said:


> I looked at it as being convenient- was there a charger where I stopped to eat, sleep, pee, or play?  And most of the time there wasn’t.   Vacations can be hard enough to plan - don’t need to add anymore complications or headaches.


 

It's far from ready for prime-time and they're shoving it down Americans throats.


----------



## SamSpade

Kyle said:


> It's far from ready for prime-time and they're shoving it down Americans throats.


And that's what's bothering me the most about it - Americans are being slowly squeezed into it, compelled to buy a product they clearly don't want.

Because if they DID, they'd be flying off the shelves.

The whole underlying premise of capitalism is, build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. You make something better, more reliable, cheaper - and people will abandon what they have.

We were compelled to buy LEDs over incandescents, because they were outlawed. But had they proven a better product from the get go, no law would have been needed.


----------



## Sneakers

SamSpade said:


> We were compelled to buy LEDs over incandescents, because they were outlawed. But had they proven a better product from the get go, no law would have been needed.


But before LEDs, we were forced into the gawd awful, fire causing, eco-unfriendly CFLs.  LEDs weren't available in quanity at a decent cost, so they pushed CFLs just to get everyone off incandescents.


----------



## RoseRed

Someone I know recently went on business travel.  Upon return and retrieving their personal EV from parking, didn't have enough juice to get home and had to charge.  Tried to submit the $6.00 charging bill.  Nope, that falls under your mileage.


----------



## SamSpade

Unless people find a way to make, store and sell electricity to one another - electricity is one thing the government can ultimately control how much anyone gets.

One of the great things about gas, is, it can sit in your tank until you need it. Unlike a battery, which will discharge whether you use it or not.


----------



## Sneakers

RoseRed said:


> Someone I know recently went on business travel.  Upon return and retrieving their personal EV from parking, didn't have enough juice to get home and had to charge.  Tried to submit the $6.00 charging bill.  Nope, that falls under your mileage.


I get that.  If it were an ICE, you provide your own fuel and it's covered in the mileage reimbursement.  Just a different fuel for an EV, but you'd still provide it yourself and charge mileage.

I can see an adjustment to the mileage rate based on ICE vs EV.


----------



## RoseRed

Sneakers said:


> I get that.  If it were an ICE, you provide your own fuel and it's covered in the mileage reimbursement.  Just a different fuel for an EV, but you'd still provide it yourself and charge mileage.
> 
> I can see an adjustment to the mileage rate based on ICE vs EV.


I'm curious as to how that will play out.  So far, EVs haven't been added to the voucher options.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Evidently he looked at it like a person on vacation looking to charge their EV. Maybe he should have looked at it as someone who is so pro-EV that he should ignore the simple fact that the infrastructure for EV is as real as unicorn farts.



Well, how it impacts your trip depends on what system you are using. Quite considerably. Charging a Tesla on a road trip is light years easier and more convenient than any other network. Plan your trip, and the system handles finding your charging points, tells you if they are working and how full it might be when you get close. 

That infrastructure exists and tens of thousands of people use it daily to take road trips of varying sizes. Do that with anyone else's EV, and yes, its gonna suck. That's why I only recommend one brand of EV. Only one brand has deployed the needed infrastructure. And is expanding faster than anyone else. 



RoseRed said:


> Someone I know recently went on business travel.  Upon return and retrieving their personal EV from parking, didn't have enough juice to get home and had to charge.  Tried to submit the $6.00 charging bill.  Nope, that falls under your mileage.



Could you find out what that EV was? Lots of times these stories end up being some old EV like a E-Golf or BMW I3 with a silly small range. And that does fall under your mileage. Pretty good rate of return on that  POV mileage rate too. I make great money taking my motorcycle on business trips.


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> I'm curious as to how that will play out.  So far, EVs haven't been added to the voucher options.



I imagine that eventually it will be made sperate like motorcycles.


----------



## RoseRed

glhs837 said:


> I imagine that eventually it will be made sperate like motorcycles.





glhs837 said:


> Could you find out what that EV was? Lots of times these stories end up being some old EV like a E-Golf or BMW I3 with a silly small range. And that does fall under your mileage. Pretty good rate of return on that  POV mileage rate too. I make great money taking my motorcycle on business trips.


Tesla.


----------



## Kyle

SamSpade said:


> Unless people find a way to make, store and sell electricity to one another - electricity is one thing the government can ultimately control how much anyone gets.
> 
> One of the great things about gas, is, it can sit in your tank until you need it. *Unlike a battery, which will discharge whether you use it or not.*


They claim it'll only drain 1% per day but the small print indicates there are a multitude of features that have to be turned off that would otherwise hasten the batteries decline.

The reality is probably five times that speed.


----------



## OccamsRazor

Seems like an interesting dilemma. Charge EV to drive to airport (BWI, etc.) and park it. Go on 2 week business trip. Return and your EV doesn't have enough juice to get you home. Gotta find a charge and wait around until it can get you home. Who pays for that time?


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> Tesla.



I'm surprised. Even the lowest have a 250 mile range, even Dulles shouldn't have taxed it too much. I suppose it depends on how long you are gone though. Ah, this might be the issue here.









						Airport 10%+ drain daily!
					

I left my 8 month old model Y at the Sacramento Airport on a Monday with 220 miles of charge left on it. I did not turn off anything just locked it and flew out. On Saturday (6 days) I got a Tesla notice that it had 65 miles left and it was shutting down the security cameras. How could it be...




					teslamotorsclub.com
				




If you leave Sentry Mode (which looks for motion in the eight cameras and records that motion) and/or Advanced Summon enabled, the car never goes to sleep, and you can lose 10% of your charge a day. Whereas turning those off, the drain is 1% a day. You can leave it for weeks at that rate.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> They claim it'll only drain 1% per day but the small print indicates there are a multitude of features that have to be turned off that would otherwise hasten the batteries decline.
> 
> The reality is probably five times that speed.





So at most, its three. 

Sentry Mode
Advanced Summon
Cabin Overheat Protection (only matters when it hot, it activates when the cabin exceeds 105F.) 

Takes about a minute tops to shut them off. And I agree, it would be nice to have an Airport/Storage mode that is a quick setting. Who knows, like "Joe Mode", which reduces the internal alert chimes by I think 50%, or "Dog Mode" that lets you set a nice comfy temp for your dogs and displays  a message showing that temp in large number, that feature could arrive at any update and work for every Tesla ever made.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## jrt_ms1995

Kyle said:


> View attachment 166134


... could arrive at any update ...


----------



## GURPS

Bosch Warns Electric Vehicle Industry over Reliance on Battery Cells​

Heyn, who’s also a board member of the auto parts giant, told the Monday edition of the _Stuttgarter Zeitung_: “We’re currently seeing the consequences of the gas shortage for Germany and Europe because we prepared too few alternatives. In the automotive industry, we should use this occasion to ask ourselves what we can do if there should ever be too few battery cells.”

He said in that case, “everyone would certainly like to see an alternative to battery power. But this will only exist if we have prepared it in good time.” Heyn said that alternatives that should be considered include fuel cells using hydrogen and oxygen to power electric motors. He further added that the infrastructure being developed for long-haul trucks is well-suited as a “backbone for supplying passenger cars.”

Batteries have consistently been a major cost for drivers of electric vehicles as replacements and repairs can be extremely expensive.

Breitbart News recently reported on a Canadian Tesla owner who was locked out of his car unless he paid $26,000 for a new battery.
https://media.breitbart.com/media/2022/06/Biden_electric.jpg


----------



## Gilligan

Sneakers said:


> Now THIS is what I'm talkin' about....  Always wanted a real dune buggy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2024 Meyers Manx 2.0 Electric: The Original Dune Buggy, Remastered
> 
> 
> The all-electric dune buggy Volkswagen refused to build is finally here thanks to the designer of the New Beetle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motortrend.com


Friggin awesome!  I owned two of the original Manx's back in the 70s. This pic of one of them from 1978, taken out in the sand quarry playground that once existed in south Florida.  I really like the idea of the new electric version.


----------



## Kyle

Gilligan said:


> Friggin awesome!  I owned two of the original Manx's back in the 70s. This pic of one of them from 1978, taken out in the sand quarry playground that once existed in south Florida.  I really like the idea of the new electric version.


I dont' think you'd be taking that one in the water like the pic.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> I dont' think you'd be taking that one in the water like the pic.



Why not? Tesla's do fine at fording. Hard to find straight video, but the clips in this one tell the tale.


----------



## GURPS

“Complete And Total Disaster”: YouTuber Drives Electric Ford Truck, Recounts Disastrous Results [VIDEO]​

Youtuber Tyler Hoover says in the video, seen below, that “_f a truck towing 3,500 pounds can’t even go 100 miles — that is ridiculously stupid. He then highlights the basic argument against EVs. “This truck can’t do normal truck things. You would be stopping every hour to recharge, which would take about 45 minutes a pop, and that is absolutely not practical.”

He says of the exercise: “My plan was to make two trips up today,” he said. “About 32 miles each way, so that’s about 64 times two: 128 miles round trip.”

“I had this thing charged to just over 200 miles when I started my day, so ample margin for error when it comes to range and towing and also considering the fact that the trailer was going up empty two times,” Hoover later added.


_


----------



## Kyle

Cue the ElectraJesus Disciples to appear and defend!


----------



## DaSDGuy

Kyle said:


> Cue the ElectraJesus Disciples to appear and defend!


Not a fair test!! He was going uphill, both ways!!


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

I’ll stick with my duramax diesel.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


> Cue the ElectraJesus Disciples to appear and defend!



Not me. I wont defend the Lightning. Ford made a clear choice to make an ICE conversion EV truck for one reason and one reason only. They decided that any truck, no matter how crippled by being a conversion carrying a ton of extra mass in the form of framerails and other crap, was better than no truck. They wanted "first mover advantage", and now they reap the results of this choice. 

Also note they are not selling many of them. And the reason for that is simply that they are most likely not making money on them, even the high end trim. But for sure on the low end trim. They have a clean sheet EV F-150 coming in I think 2025, which reflects how long it takes to make one that's efficient. 

That's one reason the Cybertruck is the weird looking thing it is. A unibody cant be as strong as body on frame for towing. But a frame costs you weight that you don't need unless you are towing. And over 85% of truck owners tow once *or less* a year. Lotta wasted energy hauling that frame around. The CTs exoskeleton and cast subframes and structural battery pack gives you back that strength without the extra mass. 

Ford and GM think they can do it with huge uni-bodies and gargantuan battery packs........ I think they are wrong.


----------



## Sneakers

GURPS said:


> “Complete And Total Disaster”: YouTuber Drives Electric Ford Truck, Recounts Disastrous Results [VIDEO]​
> 
> Youtuber Tyler Hoover says in the video, seen below, that “_f a truck towing 3,500 pounds can’t even go 100 miles — that is ridiculously stupid. He then highlights the basic argument against EVs. “This truck can’t do normal truck things. You would be stopping every hour to recharge, which would take about 45 minutes a pop, and that is absolutely not practical.”
> 
> He says of the exercise: “My plan was to make two trips up today,” he said. “About 32 miles each way, so that’s about 64 times two: 128 miles round trip.”
> 
> “I had this thing charged to just over 200 miles when I started my day, so ample margin for error when it comes to range and towing and also considering the fact that the trailer was going up empty two times,” Hoover later added.
> 
> 
> _



Not sure what he did differently, but there is a YouTube channel 'Transport Evolved' that I watched recently.  Woman used a Lightning to tow a car carrier with a mid-sized car over the mountains.  She made all of her re-charge estimated points at full highway speed.  The only problem they encountered was a temporary reduction of power as a result of battery overheating after fast charging.


----------



## GURPS




----------



## Kyle

Just imagine all the piles of these junkers when people opt to purchase a whole new car instead of spending 85% of that cost on just a battery. 

 

That's a lot of crushed cars and lithium batteries piling up.


----------



## GURPS

Kyle said:


> That's a lot of crushed cars and lithium batteries piling up.




Recycled I hope ... expect a thriving 2ndary market on batter repair for a few 1000 instead of full on replacement


----------



## Sneakers

GURPS said:


> Recycled I hope ... expect a thriving 2ndary market on batter repair for a few 1000 instead of full on replacement


There really isn't wide scale recycling yet for lithium batteries.  But when pacs fail, it's usually only a few cells.  Repair industry should flourish.  Trade-in/swap-out for the cost of a pac repair.


----------



## GURPS

__





						Loading…
					





					www.youtube.com


----------



## DaSDGuy

Sneakers said:


> There really isn't wide scale recycling yet for lithium batteries.  But when pacs fail, it's usually only a few cells.  Repair industry should flourish.  Trade-in/swap-out for the cost of a pac repair.


It will be interesting to see how long a repaired battery pack is guaranteed.


----------



## Kyle

DaSDGuy said:


> It will be interesting to see how long a repaired battery pack is guaranteed.


Likely... All the way to the door.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> It will be interesting to see how long a repaired battery pack is guaranteed.



You mean for the repairs? Or the entire pack? When your engine gets a new oil pump, would they cover you if a piston ring blew? 



Sneakers said:


> There really isn't wide scale recycling yet for lithium batteries.  But when pacs fail, it's usually only a few cells.  Repair industry should flourish.  Trade-in/swap-out for the cost of a pac repair.



Redwood has started sending recycled materials to Nevada, but as you note, nothing on scale yet, since the first run of EVs are pretty much all on the road still. 



Kyle said:


> Just imagine all the piles of these junkers when people opt to purchase a whole new car instead of spending 85% of that cost on just a battery.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a lot of crushed cars and lithium batteries piling up.



As noted, you will see a repair industry grow. And modern packs should last longer than most folks would own a car anyway. When you look at how many Tesla packs fail after say the 2013 model year, the numbers are pretty small. And with an 8 year warranty...... 

 Lastly, gonna crush these packs, they will get recycled. That industry's already starting up.


----------



## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> You mean for the repairs? Or the entire pack? When your engine gets a new oil pump, would they cover you if a piston ring blew?
> 
> 
> 
> Redwood has started sending recycled materials to Nevada, but as you note, nothing on scale yet, since the first run of EVs are pretty much all on the road still.
> 
> 
> 
> As noted, you will see a repair industry grow. And modern packs should last longer than most folks would own a car anyway. When you look at how many Tesla packs fail after say the 2013 model year, the numbers are pretty small. And with an 8 year warranty......
> 
> Lastly, gonna crush these packs, they will get recycled. That industry's already starting up.


The entire pack and the labor.  That's the way they are sold.  The guarantee would be for the entire pack and the labor to install it, even though only a portion of it is new.  I wasn't aware EV's had oil pumps and/or piston rings.  Please ID the make and model of the EV you are referencing that has an oil pump and/or piston rings.


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> And modern packs should last longer than most folks would own a car anyway


Aptera is saying their battery pack will be good for 200,000 miles.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> The entire pack and the labor.  That's the way they are sold.  The guarantee would be for the entire pack and the labor to install it, even though only a portion of it is new.  I wasn't aware EV's had oil pumps and/or piston rings.  Please ID the make and model of the EV you are referencing that has an oil pump and/or piston rings.


One but they still My point was that you can expect repaired battery warranties to be very similar to the warranties you'd get when you have a major part of your internal combustion engine repaired. If somebody pulls your engine and replaces the water pump they don't warranty the rest of the engine. They warranty the work that they did. If you want a warranty on the entire item, you have to go to somebody who provides an entirely manufactured product like a crate engine. If I have a shop replace some piston rings that's different than getting a Jasper remanufactured engine


----------



## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> One but they still My point was that you can expect repaired battery warranties to be very similar to the warranties you'd get when you have a major part of your internal combustion engine repaired. If somebody pulls your engine and replaces the water pump they don't warranty the rest of the engine. They warranty the work that they did. If you want a warranty on the entire item, you have to go to somebody who provides an entirely manufactured product like a crate engine. If I have a shop replace some piston rings that's different than getting a Jasper remanufactured engine


True, but if someone pulls the battery out and replaces it the entire battery is under warranty.


----------



## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> True, but if someone pulls the battery out and replaces it the entire battery is under warranty.


That's kind of what I was thinking too.  They have already-repaired pacs ready to go, you trade yours in and "buy" a whole pac with a warranty on the whole thing.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> True, but if someone pulls the battery out and replaces it the entire battery is under warranty.


Right, so that's more of a Jasper remanufactured mode. If you take your car in and the local shop repairs your pack then they're not going to warranty the entire pack. Just the repair. That's what I was talking about. And just like engines you'll be faced with the same cost difference.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> That's kind of what I was thinking too.  They have already-repaired pacs ready to go, you trade yours in and "buy" a whole pac with a warranty on the whole thing.


I don't know that they're going to have packs on hand. I really think remanufactured packs are going to be very much like remanufactured engines with the same level of need, meaning it just doesn't make economic sense to keep them on hand. Because I think battery pack fire that requires repair a replacement is going to be as rare as an engine failure that requires replacement of the engine


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> I don't know that they're going to have packs on hand. I really think remanufactured packs are going to be very much like remanufactured engines with the same level of need, meaning it just doesn't make economic sense to keep them on hand. Because I think battery pack fire that requires repair a replacement is going to be as rare as an engine failure that requires replacement of the engine


I didn't mean necessarily having a stock at the repair site, that would be ludicrous for the number of different designs.  Much like Jasper, order a reman in a day or two.  Semantics.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> I didn't mean necessarily having a stock at the repair site, that would be ludicrous for the number of different designs.  Much like Jasper, order a reman in a day or two.  Semantics.



Well, in terms of warranty, having AAMCO (I mean after transmissions go away, they'll need a new business) perform a local repair wont bring the same warranty as a full blown reworked Jasper unit might. There will be repairs that can be done on a local level to your pack. Like that stupid plastic piece on the Model S pack. Fixing or replacing one module, perhaps, although if the Tesla structural pack becomes the norm, thats out the window.

AAMCO will warranty the work they did on your module, but if another module blows, tough titties. Whereas someone like Jasper will have gone through every module and weeded out incipient failures, so the whole pack gets it.


----------



## RoseRed

Man Left Stranded in Middle of the Road by His $115K Hummer Electric Truck
					

A man bought a brand new $115,000 Hummer electric truck, only to find that it immediately left him stranded in the middle of the road — and the vehicle had less than 250 miles on it.




					www.breitbart.com


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> Man Left Stranded in Middle of the Road by His $115K Hummer Electric Truck
> 
> 
> A man bought a brand new $115,000 Hummer electric truck, only to find that it immediately left him stranded in the middle of the road — and the vehicle had less than 250 miles on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.breitbart.com


----------



## glhs837

Yeah I wouldn't buy a GM EV.


----------



## Kyle

Living on the bleeding edge.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## Gilligan




----------



## Sneakers

whuups.


----------



## Gilligan

Sneakers said:


> whuups.


atsa BIG tow-behind generator.....


----------



## DaSDGuy

Looks like standard equipment for EV evacuations during tropical weather.


----------



## Kyle

Used electric cars: should you buy one?


There's plenty to bear in mind if you're thinking of buying a used electric vehicle - these are our top tips…

Electric cars aren't new, but their long-awaited surge in popularity is here, with just over 141,000 EVs registered by October in 2021. That's an increase of 86 per cent on the previous year. Shifting market trends means sales of alternatively fuelled vehicles (AFVs) have surpassed all previous records, and more second-hand electric cars are now available on the used market as a result. 

It's easy to see why so many motorists are making the switch. Lower taxation, grants and cheaper running costs for EVs look appealing next to the rising cost of diesel and petrol car ownership, combined with the introduction of 'clean air zones'.











						Used electric cars: should you buy one? | Auto Express
					

There's plenty to bear in mind if you're thinking of buying a used electric vehicle - these are our top tips…




					www.autoexpress.co.uk
				







> Used electric cars: should you buy one?



The best answer to this is, #### no!


----------



## RoseRed

How long do people keep their EVs before off-loading them?


----------



## DaSDGuy

RoseRed said:


> How long do people keep their EVs before off-loading them?


About one year before the battery pack needs replacement.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## kwillia

GO GREEN! WAIT! NOT IN MY BACK YARD!

In recent years, proponents have aggressively pushed clean energy alternatives as part of their broader goal to reach net-zero emissions and transition away from fossil fuel energy in the U.S. and abroad. But wind turbines, solar farms, hydropower projects and critical mineral production — all key parts of the clean energy push — have all faced resistance in the form of environmental lawsuits, legal petitions and local movements.

WE NEED MORE WIND GENERATED ENERGY!     WAIT!      NO MURDER BLADES!

WE NEED MORE SOLAR GENERATED ENERGY!     WAIT!     NO CUTTING DOWN TREES OR USING FARMLAND TO DO IT!

WE NEED MORE HYDRO POWER!      WAIT!      NO KILLING OUR FOREST, WILDLIFE OR GENERATING POLUTION TO DO IT!

WE NEED MORE ELECTRIC CARS AND THINGIES!        WAIT!     NO DESTROYING MOTHER EARTH TO DO IT!

Now what? 









						Green energy projects face stark environmental, local opposition nationwide
					

Green energy projects — including wind, solar and hydropower — have face an uptick in resistance from local and national opposition groups who argue the projects harm the environment.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## jrt_ms1995

kwillia said:


> Now what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green energy projects face stark environmental, local opposition nationwide
> 
> 
> Green energy projects — including wind, solar and hydropower — have face an uptick in resistance from local and national opposition groups who argue the projects harm the environment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxnews.com


Well, d*m'it, there's a boundless supply of unicorn farts, pixie dust, and paper money to create all these things, with zero impact to anyone/anything!


----------



## Kyle

jrt_ms1995 said:


> Well, d*m'it, there's a boundless supply of unicorn farts, pixie dust, and paper money to create all these things, with zero impact to anyone/anything!




And here I have all my investments in Leprechaun futures. 

Damnit.


----------



## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> And here I have all my investments in Leprechaun futures.
> 
> Damnit.


Should have invested in bridge trolls like I did.


----------



## ontheriver

Sneakers said:


> Should have invested in bridge trolls like I did.


Hey!!!!      
How much did you pay....?


----------



## Kyle

Sneakers said:


> Should have invested in bridge trolls like I did.


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> How long do people keep their EVs before off-loading them?


In the UK, and the ones on that list? Maybe not long as they are almost all low range conversion compliance cars. 100 mile range sucks, in the UK. 
Here in the states? Longer unless they are trading up. Right now you can find used Model 3s all over as folks are trading up to the Model Ys. 



DaSDGuy said:


> About one year before the battery pack needs replacement.











						Will worn-out batteries send Tesla to the scrapheap? It's complicated
					

Older electric vehicles can't run for as far on a single charge as newer cars. But where older smartphones may struggle to hold a charge, EVs aren't quite the same.




					www.inverse.com


----------



## GURPS

YouTuber Warped Perception Goes 1,600 Miles in His Tesla Without Plugging In​


----------



## GURPS

U.S. awards $2.8 billion for EV battery, grid projects ​Summary by Ground News

The Biden administration will announce on Wednesday it is awarding $2.8 billion in grants for projects to boost U.S. manufacturing of electric vehicle batteries and domestic mineral production. The 20 manufacturing and processing companies will use funds to develop enough battery-grade lithium, graphite and nickel. A senior administration official said the funding will lead to 8,000 new jobs. Biden has called for half of all vehicles to be electric by 2030.


----------



## DaSDGuy

Then another $28 trillion to develop the means to charge those electric vehicles.


----------



## Kyle

DaSDGuy said:


> Then another $28 trillion to develop the means to charge those electric vehicles.


----------



## DaSDGuy

Kyle said:


>


That looks like work.  Scratch the libs off the list for running the wheel.


----------



## Kyle

DaSDGuy said:


> That looks like work.  Scratch the libs off the list for running the wheel.


Chain em inside it and send the taskmaster at em.


----------



## glhs837

Stupid. Let them compete. Ford and GM and are getting their monies worth.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## Kyle




----------



## Sneakers

Kyle said:


>


Well, wait.  The F-150 has an outlet for V2H (vehicle to home).  Just run a cord from that plug into the truck's charge port!


----------



## Sneakers

Kyle said:


>


Years and years ago already, South Park did a segment on hybrids, specifically the Prius.  They called it the Pious and the pollution they caused was Smug.


----------



## glhs837

Kyle said:


>



Yeah, Ford got their "first mover advantage", but the cost to thier reputation might be more than they bargained for. ICE conversion designs are never a good idea, its a massive efficiency hit. That's why Ford is already working on a unibody style second gen Lightning. 

GM decided to wait until the new Silverado (aka Silverlanche) unibody was ready. But since thats built on the same basic platform as the known to weight as much a a white dwarf Hummer EV, I suspect that will only buy range with a stupid huge battery pack.


----------



## Kyle

Sneakers said:


> Years and years ago already, South Park did a segment on hybrids, specifically the Prius.  They called it the Pious and the pollution they caused was Smug.



I love that show.


----------



## Kyle

In the days after Hurricane Ian made landfall in Florida, firefighters near Naples put out six blazes in electric vehicles that had been submerged in seawater.

It was a first. The North Collier Fire Control & Rescue District had never before dealt with an EV fire. The hurricane’s storm surge flooded thousands of vehicles with salt water, and the surprising fires added a challenge to a fire department that was already overwhelmed by search and rescue operations in the wake of the deadly storm.

The flooded cars’ lithium-ion batteries were loaded with energy when highly conductive salt water poured over them. They burned for “hours and hours” and required “thousands upon thousands” of gallons of water to extinguish — a far more intensive process than what a typical gas car fire would require, said Heather Mazurkiewicz, a fire department spokesperson. At least one EV reignited after flames were put out, destroying two houses that had survived the storm, officials said.










						Why 6 flooded EVs burst into flames after Hurricane Ian
					

Lithium-ion batteries can burn for hours after igniting with the help of conductive salt water. The fires threaten to cloud the image of EVs as the Biden




					www.eenews.net
				




They should think about building the cars out of Sodium and Magnesium to save time. 

Imagine how cool that would look headed down the highway in a thunderstorm.


----------



## stgislander

Seems like that would be a Class D fire requiring sand or some other smothering agent.


----------



## Sneakers

stgislander said:


> Seems like that would be a Class D fire requiring sand or some other smothering agent.


Once the reaction starts, it provides it's own fuel, so smothering doesn't do much.  All the water just keeps the temps down.


----------



## RoseRed

If able, why not just let them burn?  They're already totalled.


----------



## Sneakers

RoseRed said:


> If able, why not just let them burn?  They're already totalled.


Depends on their proximity to other structures.  I'd agree if if it were out in the open.


----------



## Kyle

Perhaps the fire department can show up with a portable Steam Turbine and use the thermal energy of the car fire to generate "Green Electricity?"


----------



## RoseRed

Sneakers said:


> Depends on their proximity to other structures.  I'd agree if if it were out in the open.


I guess it's bad for the environment by letting them burn.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> You mean for the repairs? Or the entire pack? When your engine gets a new oil pump, would they cover you if a piston ring blew?
> 
> 
> 
> Redwood has started sending recycled materials to Nevada, but as you note, nothing on scale yet, since the first run of EVs are pretty much all on the road still.
> 
> 
> 
> As noted, you will see a repair industry grow. And modern packs should last longer than most folks would own a car anyway. When you look at how many Tesla packs fail after say the 2013 model year, the numbers are pretty small. And with an 8 year warranty......
> 
> Lastly, gonna crush these packs, they will get recycled. That industry's already starting up.


Most likely those packs are gonna have to be stripped, crushing them would just start a reaction.


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> I guess it's bad for the environment by letting them burn.



Some places just show up with a large tank of water and dump the car in.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> Most likely those packs are gonna have to be stripped, crushing them would just start a reaction.



Redwood hasn't detailed their process that I've seen, crushed was just an expression.


----------



## RoseRed

glhs837 said:


> Some places just show up with a large tank of water and dump the car in.


Wasting water!


----------



## Sneakers

I'm surprised Musk hasn't proposed a rocket to the sun to carry nuculer and battery waste.  the power could come from the waste itself.


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> Wasting water!


Not at all. Far less to fill a car sized tank that keep pouring water over the car that then drains away. 









						Smoking BMW i8 gets submerged in water for 24 hours - Energy Live News
					

The Brandweer Midden- en West-Brabant fire service said putting it out it the 'normal' way was difficult




					www.energylivenews.com


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> Not at all. Far less to fill a car sized tank that keep pouring water over the car that then drains away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smoking BMW i8 gets submerged in water for 24 hours - Energy Live News
> 
> 
> The Brandweer Midden- en West-Brabant fire service said putting it out it the 'normal' way was difficult
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.energylivenews.com


I think you missed her "green" joke.


----------



## RoseRed

glhs837 said:


> Not at all. Far less to fill a car sized tank that keep pouring water over the car that then drains away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smoking BMW i8 gets submerged in water for 24 hours - Energy Live News
> 
> 
> The Brandweer Midden- en West-Brabant fire service said putting it out it the 'normal' way was difficult
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.energylivenews.com


Where did the container come from and how did they get it in there?


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> I'm surprised Musk hasn't proposed a rocket to the sun to carry nuculer and battery waste.  the power could come from the waste itself.



Once Starship gets to Falcon levels of reliability, the nuke waste could go....


----------



## glhs837

RoseRed said:


> Where did the container come from and how did they get it in there?



No idea.


----------



## kwillia

Electric vehicle owner learns replacing a tail light costs over $4,000​“The taillights in the Hummer EV have small microcontrollers installed within them. These chips control unique lighting functions in their respective lights,” the_ Drive_ suggested as a reason for the high price. “Additionally, the Hummer EV is a fairly limited-run vehicle thus far, meaning parts are generally more expensive until economies of scale kick in.”



			Electric vehicle owner learns replacing a tail light costs over $4,000


----------



## glhs837

kwillia said:


> Electric vehicle owner learns replacing a tail light costs over $4,000​“The taillights in the Hummer EV have small microcontrollers installed within them. These chips control unique lighting functions in their respective lights,” the_ Drive_ suggested as a reason for the high price. “Additionally, the Hummer EV is a fairly limited-run vehicle thus far, meaning parts are generally more expensive until economies of scale kick in.”
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicle owner learns replacing a tail light costs over $4,000



Friken lunacy........


----------



## Sneakers

That's absurd.  If you ask anyone what the most likely thing to be replaced on any vehicle, it would be lights.  To make them that expensive is a complete failure of engineering.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> That's absurd.  If you ask anyone what the most likely thing to be replaced on any vehicle, it would be lights.  To make them that expensive is a complete failure of engineering.


Well, it's Hummer by GM, sooooooo. What's going to be interesting to see is how Silverado platform fairs since it's built on the same underlying unibody concept. I suspect the only way they buy range is with a gargantuan battery.


----------



## kwillia

It is already disconcerting to think of high loan amount needed for the EV, the cost of retrofitting one's home for the EV, and now needing a bank loan for standard repairs. The average family is not going to be able to afford an EV and will no longer have a choice of keeping maintaining their fossil fueled vehicles.  Scary times.


----------



## glhs837

kwillia said:


> It is already disconcerting to think of high loan amount needed for the EV, the cost of retrofitting one's home for the EV, and now needing a bank loan for standard repairs. The average family is not going to be able to afford an EV and will no longer have a choice of keeping maintaining their fossil fueled vehicles.  Scary times.



Cost for outfitting for charging will be a pretty big variable. Most homes built after say 80 have the capacity, but layout matters. My rental, where the panels in the house and the garage is 20 feet away, will cost a bit. My own house, where the main panel is just one wall away from the garage, that would cost considerably less. And I wouldn't base your repair estimates on the Hummer. A Model 3 tail light should cost less than $500 if you have them send a tech out, about half that if you buy Ebay or junkyard parts and do it yourself. 

And no, we don't have truly affordable EVs yet, that's a couple five years down the road, I think. If the Model 3 battery life works out as its supposed to, used ones of those should be in the low 30s in a few years and good to go for years after that.


----------



## spr1975wshs

Saw a headline on another forum that read (in paraphrase) EV owners are shocked that a battery replacement can cost $20,000.


----------



## glhs837

spr1975wshs said:


> Saw a headline on another forum that read (in paraphrase) EV owners are shocked that a battery replacement can cost $20,000.



And they should be. But the two high profile cases of that recently have been sort of red herrings. Older cars made in limited quantities with little to no spares ever made so the high price was really "Eff you" money since it couldn't really be obtained. 

Cars made in the hundreds of thousands, those packs will both spur a cottage or larger repair industry and less expensive packs due to scale. And like engines, most people will not own a car long enough to need a new pack. They should last 200-500k, and if its damage, that's insurance, and up toil 8 years or 100, the makers is on the hook.


----------



## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> A Model 3 tail light should cost less than $500




No light bulb should cost $ 500 bucks


----------



## Kyle

GURPS said:


> No light bulb should cost $ 500 bucks


It contains organic windmill, free range electricity.


----------



## Sneakers

I'm still holding out in  hopes the Aptera comes to fruition.  Every day that goes by, there is better and better news on their progress towards production.  Cost starts at $26,900 for a base model, mine is about $36k.  I opted for a 400 mile battery pack, custom skin coat, 3-wheel drive and few other things.  They are a huge believer in 'right to repair', so I'm hoping parts won't be outrageous.  They are also building it as a vehicle to last, not wear out and need to be scrapped.

Unlike other EVs, it has solar cells which give it up to 40 miles of range per day.  Since the estimate for most people is 30 miles or less, many people won't need to actually plug in to recharge.  They are also going to have an optional external solar panel kit for additional charging.  I bought extra solar panels before they announced this, so I'm hoping I can still use my own panels.  Just to be on the safe side, I've already extended my dryer outline line into the garage for 30A 240VAC level 2 charging, but I'll have to buy whatever adapters will be needed.  Right now, it appears they will be using the Tesla plug.

Again, still not in production, estimate for mine is between 2023 and 2024.  It's only a 2 seater, minimal creature comforts, but for me it will be perfect.  Won't be so good for a family, too small, but they are laying the ground work for affordable.


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> No light bulb should cost $ 500 bucks


That's not a light bulb. That's the entire tail light assembly.


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> That's not a light bulb. That's the entire tail light assembly.


Right.  With LEDs, you generally don't replace a bulb, it's integrated into the frame.  You wind up replacing it because it got smashed.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> Right.  With LEDs, you generally don't replace a bulb, it's integrated into the frame.  You wind up replacing it because it got smashed.



Ford says "Hold my beer" 






						Ford Ranger Tail Light Assembly. W/BLIND SPOT MONITOR - KB3Z13405G | Lakeland Ford Online Parts, Lakeland FL
					

Tail Light Assembly. W/BLIND SPOT MONITOR. Rear, Left, LAMPS, Lamp, Assy. Ford Ranger. Genuine Ford Part - KB3Z13405G (KB3Z-13405-G, KB3Z13405D). Ships from Lakeland Ford Online Parts, Lakeland FL



					parts.lakelandford.com
				






> Your Price​*$ 760.50*
> All Discounts:$ 318.50 (30% off)
> *MSRP: $ 1,079.00*





> W/BLIND SPOT MONITOR.
> 35929. Left.W/BLIND SPOT MONITOR. Rear Left. Tail lamp assy.


"Hey Bob?"

"Yeah Fred?" 

"Hows about we mold the expensive blindspot sensor into the fragile exposed plastic on the corner?

"Capital Idea, Fred!!!!! I see a bonus coming your way!!!"


----------



## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> That's not a light bulb. That's the entire tail light assembly.




well then, that is a really POOR ****ING DESIGN where the bulb cannot be replaced


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> well then, that is a really POOR ****ING DESIGN where the bulb cannot be replaced



Are we talking bulbs though or light assemblies? Ones service, ones repair.


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> well then, that is a really POOR ****ING DESIGN where the bulb cannot be replaced



Now this is the one in question. no bulbs, just LED. But the LEDS should last close to forever. But in case of damage, well, you have a problem.


----------



## Sneakers

GURPS said:


> well then, that is a really POOR ****ING DESIGN where the bulb cannot be replaced


MTBF of an LED is hundreds of thousands of hours.  They aren't expecting the LED to fail and require replacement.  Costs less to integrate it into the assembly than to make a removable/replaceable 'bulb'.


----------



## Sneakers

A pretty good analysis of submerged EVs and potential for fire.  Very interesting point..... the chance of a fire from the LOW VOLTAGE/LOW AMP 12VDC battery is much higher than the high voltage drive battery pack.


----------



## jrt_ms1995

glhs837 said:


> Cost for outfitting for charging will be a pretty big variable. Most homes built after say 80 have the capacity, but layout matters. My rental, where the panels in the house and the garage is 20 feet away, will cost a bit. My own house, where the main panel is just one wall away from the garage, that would cost considerably less. And I wouldn't base your repair estimates on the Hummer. A Model 3 tail light should cost less than $500 if you have them send a tech out, about half that if you buy Ebay or junkyard parts and do it yourself.
> 
> And no, we don't have truly affordable EVs yet, that's a couple five years down the road, I think. If the Model 3 battery life works out as its supposed to, used ones of those should be in the low 30s in a few years and good to go for years after that.


So, which side of the vehicle (Teslas) are the charge ports? Been curious lately.


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

San Jose gas station tries offering charging for electric vehicles
					

At a Rotten Robbie gas station in San Jose, management is running an experiment: they've installed two EV charging stations on site, so they can be a spot where people fuel up and charge up.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## RoseRed

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> San Jose gas station tries offering charging for electric vehicles
> 
> 
> At a Rotten Robbie gas station in San Jose, management is running an experiment: they've installed two EV charging stations on site, so they can be a spot where people fuel up and charge up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com


That's a blast from the past.  I had forgotten all about Rotten Robbie's!


----------



## jrt_ms1995

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> San Jose gas station tries offering charging for electric vehicles
> 
> 
> At a Rotten Robbie gas station in San Jose, management is running an experiment: they've installed two EV charging stations on site, so they can be a spot where people fuel up and charge up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com


The Ms. Graziosi quoted in the article seems to be a reasonably intelligent and reality-focused person; wtf is she doing in California?


----------



## glhs837

Hmmm, reasoned analysis. Wont get any play  Nice to see her research on exactly how many fires in FL were caused by submerged EVs matches mine exactly. Lots of regurgitation of poorly documented initial claims without anything factual to back them up led to this perception of a lake of eternal lithium ion hellfire


----------



## glhs837

jrt_ms1995 said:


> So, which side of the vehicle (Teslas) are the charge ports? Been curious lately.


Left rear. And the Cybertruck so far seems to be following that. Not easy to spot since unlike some makers, they don't make them stand out. Which I assume legacy makers do because the think "The rubes wont find it if its hidden".  









						Plugging In | Model 3 and Model Y | Tesla
					

How to open the charge port, plug in and understand charge port colors




					www.tesla.com


----------



## jrt_ms1995

glhs837 said:


> Left rear. And the Cybertruck so far seems to be following that. Not easy to spot since unlike some makers, they don't make them stand out. Which I assume legacy makers do because the think "The rubes wont find it if its hidden".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plugging In | Model 3 and Model Y | Tesla
> 
> 
> How to open the charge port, plug in and understand charge port colors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tesla.com


Thank you.


----------



## GURPS

Green Boondoggle: Connecticut’s Electric Bus Fleet Still Out of Service After Summer Battery Inferno​


In July, a battery fire caused an electric bus to burst into flames in Hamden, Connecticut. Luckily, no one died in the inferno, although two transit workers and two firefighters were hospitalized as a result of the blaze, and a federal investigation was triggered.

In September, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) issued a preliminary report detailing how the electric bus operated by CT Transit became engulfed in flames while parked at a maintenance facility, according to a report by NHPR.

“The battery electric buses remain out of service while the investigations are ongoing,” DOT spokesperson Josh Morgan said.


----------



## Kyle

My new electric car comes with special upgrades.


----------



## glhs837

So, to bolster my argument that buying anything other than a Tesla, right now, and expecting to charge away from home is just asking for heartache. 









						Can Electric Vehicle Owners Rely on DC Fast Charging? - Consumer Reports
					

Consumer Reports tests DC fast charging on four popular electric vehicles to see if electric vehicle owners can rely on DC fast charging in real-world conditions.




					www.consumerreports.org
				




Of interest is that they speak of 6,000 Level 3 stations. Of which 2,000 are Tesla Superchargers. What they don't say, and is sort a unspoken Tesla advantage, is that out of the 4,000 charging stations belonging to the other networks, there are usually far fewer plugs for station, and a higher incidence of plugs that are not operable. So if you are buying with the next five to seven years in mind, IMO, you will face these struggles.


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Keep a broader mindset. Looking at worst case scenarios can tilt things. I've not seen a report covering more than places like CA and Canada. Also keep in mind, the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) includes a lot of savings on maintenance items. They are significantly cheaper to maintain. And they are indeed greener when you do the math properly. The studies saying other wise forget things like oil usage, and the emissions counts for refining and shipping the fuel. Yes, EVs that charge using electricity generated by say natural gas face the same cost, but simple efficiencies of scale tell us that getting natural gas to a powerplant costs less than refining an equivalent amount of oil into gasoline and then using trucks to distribute that gasloine to various regional centers before using more trucks to deliver that gasoline to gas stations.
> 
> You need to look at it as a fuel life cycle, not just ignoring the stuff done to get that fuel to the vehicle. As far as batteries, again, its life cycle costs. These batteries can and will see the same sort of 100% recycling lead batteries do. In addition to finding second lives as storage devices. Which doesnt happen with gas engines, nobody takes the engine out of a scrapped car and uses it as a generator engine, do they?


Who really cares about being greener I know I do not I love gas guzzling high HP cars and diesel trucks ...JMO


----------



## GURPS

Electric Cars Are Good, but We Still Need Fossil Fuels​
"Because nature is not nice to humans," explains Mills, "we store energy for when it's cold or really hot. People who imagine an energy transition want to build windmills and solar panels and store all that energy in batteries. But if you do the arithmetic, you find you'd need to build about a hundred trillion dollars' worth of batteries to store the same amount of energy that Europe has in storage now for this winter. It would take the world's battery factories 400 years to manufacture that many batteries."

Politicians don't mention that when they promise every car will be electric. They also don't mention that the electric _grid_ is limited.

This summer, California officials were so worried about blackouts they asked electric vehicle owners to stop charging cars!

Yet today, few of California's cars are electric. Gov. Gavin Newsom ordered that _all_ new cars must be electric by 2035! Where does he think he'll get the electricity to power them?

"Roughly speaking, you have to double your electric grid to move the energy out of gasoline into the electric sector," says Mills. "No one is planning to double the electric grid, so they'll be rationing."

Rationing. That means some places will simply turn off some of the power. That's our final inconvenient fact: We just don't have enough electricity for all electric cars.

Worse, if (as many activists and politicians propose) we try to get that electricity from 100 percent renewable sources, the rationing would be deadly.


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> Who really cares about being greener I know I do not I love gas guzzling high HP cars and diesel trucks ...JMO


Oh, you dont have to care about it at all. But you also don't get to use it as an argument against them.


----------



## RoseRed

Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk
					

A Tesla vehicle burst into flames while driving on a Pennsylvania highway Tuesday morning, requiring firefighters to use 12,000 gallons of water to extinguish it.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## TPD

RoseRed said:


> Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk
> 
> 
> A Tesla vehicle burst into flames while driving on a Pennsylvania highway Tuesday morning, requiring firefighters to use 12,000 gallons of water to extinguish it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com


Say it ain’t so!


----------



## RoseRed

TPD said:


> Say it ain’t so!


Right!?!


----------



## Kyle

Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk


Firefighters said it took more than twice as long to extinguish the flames as a normal vehicle fire












						Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk
					

A Tesla vehicle burst into flames while driving on a Pennsylvania highway Tuesday morning, requiring firefighters to use 12,000 gallons of water to extinguish it.




					www.foxbusiness.com
				




Nothing to see here folks... Move along. Move along.


At least nothing now.


----------



## RoseRed

Kyle said:


> Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk
> 
> 
> Firefighters said it took more than twice as long to extinguish the flames as a normal vehicle fire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk
> 
> 
> A Tesla vehicle burst into flames while driving on a Pennsylvania highway Tuesday morning, requiring firefighters to use 12,000 gallons of water to extinguish it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing to see here folks... Move along. Move along.
> 
> 
> At least nothing now.


See above.


----------



## Kinnakeet

electric junk ,50000 down the drain


----------



## glhs837

Yep, try not to drive over large sharp objects in the roadway. I would love to know what it was though. Those packs are pretty robust. Nice that you get time to pull over and get out before the fire gets out of hand. Which is pretty much standard unless you were going 100mph into a tree. Yep, they burn a while, hard to put out. Sorry, not super worried about this aspect. I imagine the means to put them out faster will be deployed as their numbers grow.


----------



## glhs837

So the packs are tested against paver blocks, alternators and trailer hitches. So to get into the pack take some work.


----------



## Kyle

RoseRed said:


> See above.


Yeah.

The article reminded me to pickup hot dog rolls on the way home.


----------



## RoseRed

Kyle said:


> Yeah.
> 
> The article reminded me to pickup hot dog rolls on the way home.


----------



## TPD




----------



## glhs837

TPD said:


> View attachment 167354



Yet nobody was injured of died.


----------



## DoWhat

glhs837 said:


> Yet nobody was injured of died.


Does insurance cover it?


----------



## DoWhat

TPD said:


> View attachment 167354


Does insurance cover it?


----------



## glhs837

DoWhat said:


> Does insurance cover it?


Of course. If you run into a jack handle that punctures your gas tank and your car burns, would insurance cover that?


----------



## DoWhat

glhs837 said:


> Of course. If you run into a jack handle that punctures your gas tank and your car burns, would insurance cover that?


No idea.
I'm guessing you did something stupid like that?


----------



## glhs837

DoWhat said:


> No idea.
> I'm guessing you did something stupid like that?



Nope, worst thing I ever hit was the heavy rubber base for the road barrels that some semi sent flying like a frisbee.....acted more like a boomerang and came a back at us. Big truck behind, one lane construction zone so no where to dodge. 

Did successfully dodge a 10 foot aluminum ladder on 395 once.  

Not sure why you characterize running over something on the road as stupid however. Stuff happens.


----------



## spr1975wshs

glhs837 said:


> Not sure why you characterize running over something on the road as stupid however. Stuff happens.


In early October 2020, swerved to avoid car crash debris on I-83 south of York, PA. on my way back from mom's funeral.
There was other debris I did not see, Slow leak puncture in the gas tank and bent the heat shield.
Insurance covered the repair.


----------



## DoWhat

glhs837 said:


> Not sure why you characterize running over something on the road as stupid however. Stuff happens.


I was kidding.


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Yep, try not to drive over large sharp objects in the roadway. I would love to know what it was though. Those packs are pretty robust. Nice that you get time to pull over and get out before the fire gets out of hand. Which is pretty much standard unless you were going 100mph into a tree. Yep, they burn a while, hard to put out. Sorry, not super worried about this aspect. I imagine the means to put them out faster will be deployed as their numbers grow.



Electric junk


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> Electric junk


Well, your factual rebuttal has me on the ropes, can't argue with your command of no facts whatsoever.... Good day, Sir.


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Well, your factual rebuttal has me on the ropes, can't argue with your command of no facts whatsoever.... Good day, Sir.


Its my opinion sorry ,dont need facts for that do I, they are a waste of money to me and the materials mined for them destroy the earth and when the batteries need replaced what do they do with them bury them in the ground?From what I have read the batteries cost almost as much as the car,Fossil fuel fired generators still make the electric so being green and saving the planet just went out the window,How long does it take to charge one? when your on a road trip can you find charging stations as much as you can fuel stations,how long do the batteries last,can you buy parts at NAPA for them and why are they catching on fire? Just saying no hard feelings.


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> Its my opinion sorry ,dont need facts for that do I, they are a waste of money to me and the materials mined for them destroy the earth and when the batteries need replaced what do they do with them bury them in the ground?From what I have read the batteries cost almost as much as the car,Fossil fuel fired generators still make the electric so being green and saving the planet just went out the window,How long does it take to charge one? when your on a road trip can you find charging stations as much as you can fuel stations,how long do the batteries last,can you buy parts at NAPA for them and why are they catching on fire? Just saying no hard feelings.



Take a breath. And of course your opinion doesn't need facts to be your opinion. But opinions backed by facts get more credit than those backed by memes and outrage. 

1. You of course decide what is and isn't a waste of you money. 

2. Drilling for oil and such and the materials needed for engines and transmissions also damage the earth. 

3. We are now reaching the point where there are enough batteries for recycling to be economically feasible. And we are recycling them. Too valuable to bury. Looks to be about a 90% reuse. 

4. The battery cost stories are generally all from older very low volume vehicles so that price data is a bit skewed. Of course, modenr batteries should last 300-500k, so most people will never face that problem. 

5. Fossil fuel power plants operate far more efficiently than ICE vehicle engines. A natural gas power plant is about %42 efficient, while the average road car ranges between 20%-35%. So while you are still burning, its less than if you used that fuel for powering vehicles directly. And the real answer for that point is to make a whole lot of nuke plants and good renewables paired with storage. 

6. How long it takes to charge is a variable. At home, 6-8 hours if you were low. And for the 85% of owners who charge at home, that's fine. Few people travel more than 30-40 miles a day so it takes far less time to top off. On road trips, a level three charger like a Tesla Supercharger, of which they just announced there are 40,000 of in the world, with installs increasing more rapidly all the time, you can get the charge you need in the amount of time it takes for a snack and bathroom break. 

7. Can you find charging stations, well, that depends on what you buy. With Tesla, its easy. Just enter your destination and the car simply plots your route and shows you where and for how long you need to charge. And the health of each individual charger and how busy it it is monitored in real time and used to plot your route. Other makes, not so much since they rely on a patchwork of spotty charging networks. But that should get better for them as time goes on. 

8. Batteries, well, Teslas newer packs have a design life of 300-500k. Other makers using pouch cells? No idea, but more makers are adopting hard cylindrical cells which should have good life.  

9. Parts? Depends on the part. And as time goes on, aftermarket parts makers will make more parts for them. Like any new thing, taks time to get enough installed base to make manufacture of aftermarket parts feasible. 

10. Yep, some catch on fire. Corrected for quantity, far less than ICE vehicles. And when they do, they generally do so in such a way that the occupants have plenty of time to pull over and safely escape. No explosions. Hitting a tree at 100mph will break a pack open, however. 

I have links to prove all these points if you are interested.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Take a breath. And of course your opinion doesn't need facts to be your opinion. But opinions backed by facts get more credit than those backed by memes and outrage.
> 
> 1. You of course decide what is and isn't a waste of you money.
> 
> 2. Drilling for oil and such and the materials needed for engines and transmissions also damage the earth.
> 
> 3. We are now reaching the point where there are enough batteries for recycling to be economically feasible. And we are recycling them. Too valuable to bury. Looks to be about a 90% reuse.
> 
> 4. The battery cost stories are generally all from older very low volume vehicles so that price data is a bit skewed. Of course, modenr batteries should last 300-500k, so most people will never face that problem.
> 
> 5. Fossil fuel power plants operate far more efficiently than ICE vehicle engines. A natural gas power plant is about %42 efficient, while the average road car ranges between 20%-35%. So while you are still burning, its less than if you used that fuel for powering vehicles directly. And the real answer for that point is to make a whole lot of nuke plants and good renewables paired with storage.
> 
> 6. How long it takes to charge is a variable. At home, 6-8 hours if you were low. And for the 85% of owners who charge at home, that's fine. Few people travel more than 30-40 miles a day so it takes far less time to top off. On road trips, a level three charger like a Tesla Supercharger, of which they just announced there are 40,000 of in the world, with installs increasing more rapidly all the time, you can get the charge you need in the amount of time it takes for a snack and bathroom break.
> 
> 7. Can you find charging stations, well, that depends on what you buy. With Tesla, its easy. Just enter your destination and the car simply plots your route and shows you where and for how long you need to charge. And the health of each individual charger and how busy it it is monitored in real time and used to plot your route. Other makes, not so much since they rely on a patchwork of spotty charging networks. But that should get better for them as time goes on.
> 
> 8. Batteries, well, Teslas newer packs have a design life of 300-500k. Other makers using pouch cells? No idea, but more makers are adopting hard cylindrical cells which should have good life.
> 
> 9. Parts? Depends on the part. And as time goes on, aftermarket parts makers will make more parts for them. Like any new thing, taks time to get enough installed base to make manufacture of aftermarket parts feasible.
> 
> 10. Yep, some catch on fire. Corrected for quantity, far less than ICE vehicles. And when they do, they generally do so in such a way that the occupants have plenty of time to pull over and safely escape. No explosions. Hitting a tree at 100mph will break a pack open, however.
> 
> I have links to prove all these points if you are interested.


No need to any normal human being, EV's are a not ready for prime time joke! Plain and simple, as soon as you mentioned oil drilling you confirmed Kinnakeets stance is correct.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> No need to any normal human being, EV's are a not ready for prime time joke! Plain and simple, as soon as you mentioned oil drilling you confirmed Kinnakeets stance is correct.



I didn't say we don't need to drill for oil, just that we have better uses for those petrochemicals than burning them in your car. All material resource gathering causes damage of some kind. Some more, some less. Not sure how that invalidates any of my points.  

And I agree that they are not ready to take over 100% of use cases. But as they are, they can fulfill many peoples transportation needs with no compromise.


----------



## Kyle

You guys need to stop your demon blastphemy, say 10 "Our Elons," 10 "Hail Larrys" and take Tofu Communion at the next opportunity.


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

glhs837 said:


> I didn't say we don't need to drill for oil, just that we have better uses for those petrochemicals than burning them in your car. All material resource gathering causes damage of some kind. Some more, some less. Not sure how that invalidates any of my points.
> 
> And I agree that they are not ready to take over 100% of use cases. But as they are, they can fulfill many peoples transportation needs with no compromise.


Spending 60k on a car to drive 16 miles a day to work and a couple trips to town isn’t worth it for most people.  When they come out with a truck that will match the towing capacity/distance that my duramax can then I will pay attention.


----------



## DaSDGuy

Embrace the future


----------



## glhs837

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> Spending 60k on a car to drive 16 miles a day to work and a couple trips to town isn’t worth it for most people.  When they come out with a truck that will match the towing capacity/distance that my duramax can then I will pay attention.



Depends on use case of course. If you are in the 30k and below market, then of course a 50K EV isnt for you. But once you get in the 40k range, then the total cost of ownership starts to make sense. We still drive about 12-15k a year. We spend about $120 a month on gas. Doesn't take super long to make that difference back if you charge at home and things like oil changes every 7K. 

What is your durmaxes range/towing/cost and fuel cost?


----------



## Kyle

DaSDGuy said:


> Embrace the future



The future is stupid.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Embrace the future
> 
> View attachment 167406



Well, if your an Eastern European who decides you need to own one in a country with no chargers, you are the stupid one, not the car. Ah, seems this is in Ukraine after the Russians took out that part of the grid.


----------



## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> Well, if you're in Eastern Europe or most of the U.S. and decide you need to own one in a country with few if any working chargers, you are the stupid one, not the car. Ah, seems this is in Ukraine after the Russians took out that part of the grid.


Yep, like California with their brownouts.


----------



## Kyle

DaSDGuy said:


> Yep, like California with their brownouts.


I'm really looking forward to that demand disaster.


----------



## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Yep, like California with their brownouts.


California voters and politicians making stupid choices doesn't make the cars bad. It's an object lesson and not cutting putting the cart before the horse.


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

glhs837 said:


> Depends on use case of course. If you are in the 30k and below market, then of course a 50K EV isnt for you. But once you get in the 40k range, then the total cost of ownership starts to make sense. We still drive about 12-15k a year. We spend about $120 a month on gas. Doesn't take super long to make that difference back if you charge at home and things like oil changes every 7K.
> 
> What is your durmaxes range/towing/cost and fuel cost?


Diesel cost is up there right now as we all know. 

 Towing a 9k lb 35 foot travel trailer which is essentially a big brick I have made it from callaway MD as far as just south of Bristol TN before fueling up, still had slightly over 1/4 tank left, but thought best to go ahead and fuel up to carry me on in TN where we were going.  

Not towing I average around 22-24 mpg on the highway.  Made it from callaway to northern Vermont on 3/4 tank, roughly 600 miles. 36 gallon tank   It all depends on traffic, mountains etc.  how well I do on mileage.  I have data written down just not available right this minute. Truck weighs right at 7k lbs. 

I need to tow over distances.  EV is a long way off.  We really can’t justify 40k for my wife to go back and forth to work and run around town, especially when her vehicle is paid for.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## Sneakers

The mindset of "either/or" just doesn't play here.  Agree that EVs are not ready for 'prime time' yet; the infrastructure isn't up to speed, the vehicles are still working out kinks, prices won't come down until they can be sold in quantity.

But at the same time, if an investment in an EV doesn't happen while everyone waits for everyone else to build it up, it will take much longer.  Investors won't invest is something that isn't selling.

My approach is to get an EV with the knowledge that it cannot be an end-all solution.  It's a stepping stone.  I'll use mine as often as I can, but still need the ICE truck for towing and loads (towing the EV, actually...).  I'm not sure that in the years of driving I have left, that an EV truck that can tow x-country without issues will be a reality.  Maybe.  We'll see.


----------



## glhs837

So what would a truck like yours cost new? The current crop of EV trucks won't help. We don't have final cost or performance figures for the top end Cybertruck yet but it's supposed to have 500 or better for range, a 14k tow capacity and 3.5k payload.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> So what would a truck like yours cost new? The current crop of EV trucks won't help. We don't have final cost or performance figures for the top end Cybertruck yet but it's supposed to have 500 or better for range, a 14k tow capacity and 3.5k payload.


You are beating a DEAD HORSE bro!


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

glhs837 said:


> So what would a truck like yours cost new? The current crop of EV trucks won't help. We don't have final cost or performance figures for the top end Cybertruck yet but it's supposed to have 500 or better for range, a 14k tow capacity and 3.5k payload.


Right now it would cost much more than I paid for mine.  I also have the Denali so the cost is much more than a base model with same drivetrain.  That’s pretty impressive specs for an EV truck, that thing has be more or less a giant battery with tires and wheels.  3.5k payload make me think it’s more of a commercial truck than a pickup.


----------



## spr1975wshs

If I have to go with something less motivated by gasoline, will buy a diesel hybrid. That way the hydrocarbons can be used French fry oil.


----------



## glhs837

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> Right now it would cost much more than I paid for mine.  I also have the Denali so the cost is much more than a base model with same drivetrain.  That’s pretty impressive specs for an EV truck, that thing has be more or less a giant battery with tires and wheels.  3.5k payload make me think it’s more of a commercial truck than a pickup.



Which is part of the math. Folks saying, well, I paid 40K for my F-TwoFiddy in 2005, so any truck that costs more than 40K is overpriced. When that same truck today cost say 80K. And equipment matters. Adjustable air suspension, those sort of Denali level amenities, if they come in the EV, you dont cross shop the bare bones fleet model.  Apples to apples after all. Enhanced driving aids baked in, especially for towing, with an AI level aid for figuring range effects and backing assistance,  full camera coverage, that sort of thing. 

Battery size of course we dont know. But keep in mind, while many folks are hung up on the looks, thinking its solely an aesthetic choice, it actually results from the requirements. How do I get full size truck capability while not needing a 500lb steel frame (making that 500lbs up, no idea what am F-150 frame weight is) that I only need when towing that 14K? Thats point of the "four major parts" theme. Front and rear castings, battery pack, and 4mm steel exoskeleton. Its one very tough steel box. Unlike a conventional truck where the bed and cab are just along for the ride, more dead weight for the frame to bear, in the CT, its part of the structure. So the battery will be big, but not as big as Ford and GM will need for their next gen unibody trucks. 

And I suspect that unlike the Silverado EV, which has a paltry 1300lb payload becuase the damn thing weighs 8,000lbs, the CT gets that high payload because its going to be pretty lightweight. People think the 4mm stainless makes it heavy, but that replaces a lot of thinner metal stampings that go into a unibody. Could very well be less than 6,500lbs all in.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> You are beating a DEAD HORSE bro!


Were you part of this particular part of the discussion? If you don't care for it, feel free to scroll on. Bare and I are having a discussion based on facts and information. If those bore you, well.....


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

glhs837 said:


> Which is part of the math. Folks saying, well, I paid 40K for my F-TwoFiddy in 2005, so any truck that costs more than 40K is overpriced. When that same truck today cost say 80K. And equipment matters. Adjustable air suspension, those sort of Denali level amenities, if they come in the EV, you dont cross shop the bare bones fleet model.  Apples to apples after all. Enhanced driving aids baked in, especially for towing, with an AI level aid for figuring range effects and backing assistance,  full camera coverage, that sort of thing.
> 
> Battery size of course we dont know. But keep in mind, while many folks are hung up on the looks, thinking its solely an aesthetic choice, it actually results from the requirements. How do I get full size truck capability while not needing a 500lb steel frame (making that 500lbs up, no idea what am F-150 frame weight is) that I only need when towing that 14K? Thats point of the "four major parts" theme. Front and rear castings, battery pack, and 4mm steel exoskeleton. Its one very tough steel box. Unlike a conventional truck where the bed and cab are just along for the ride, more dead weight for the frame to bear, in the CT, its part of the structure. So the battery will be big, but not as big as Ford and GM will need for their next gen unibody trucks.
> 
> And I suspect that unlike the Silverado EV, which has a paltry 1300lb payload becuase the damn thing weighs 8,000lbs, the CT gets that high payload because its going to be pretty lightweight. People think the 4mm stainless makes it heavy, but that replaces a lot of thinner metal stampings that go into a unibody. Could very well be less than 6,500lbs all in.


I have no doubt they will get there, by the time they do I will be fully retired and not looking to upgrade trucks to an EV.  EV’s are like computers where in the early 2000’s.  Some embraced it and knew it was the future others shrugged their shoulders and said yea right. EV’s are the future, I have no doubt, but you can’t force the market.  Setting a 2035 timelines is more than likely unattainable seeing how there is so much in the network that has to happen for you to take an EV on a road trip.  Charging is going to have to be capable to charge in about the same time as a petrol pump. I am a gas and go person. If I have to pee I do it during fuel stops. I don’t want to be hanging around sheetz eating a sandwich waiting to charge.  That sandwich gets eaten on the roll.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Were you part of this particular part of the discussion? If you don't care for it, feel free to scroll on. Bare and I are having a discussion based on facts and information. If those bore you, well.....


I most certainly will not, reading your lame attempts to justify EV's is highly amusing! I can hardly wait for these attempts to morf into praises and the advantages for locomotives, aircraft, bulldozers, ships, farming machines and semi's that will all run on batteries. Some of the stuff you post has some merit, bottom line is that you are a little wind trying to blow hard!


----------



## stgislander




----------



## glhs837

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> I have no doubt they will get there, by the time they do I will be fully retired and not looking to upgrade trucks to an EV.  EV’s are like computers where in the early 2000’s.  Some embraced it and knew it was the future others shrugged their shoulders and said yea right. EV’s are the future, I have no doubt, *but you can’t force the market.  Setting a 2035 timelines is more than likely unattainable seeing how there is so much in the network that has to happen for you to take an EV on a road trip. * Charging is going to have to be capable to charge in about the same time as a petrol pump. I am a gas and go person. If I have to pee I do it during fuel stops. I don’t want to be hanging around sheetz eating a sandwich waiting to charge.  That sandwich gets eaten on the roll.



Concur, I've always said that the market si strong enough that the govt needs to get its damn thumb off the scale. That way the infrastructure can grow as market presence does. As for charge time, well, that goes back to use case. I spend 8-10 minutes gassing up around town three or four times a month. 40 minutes a month that I get back if I just plug in when I get home. If I spend some of those on road trips, thats cool with me, but everybody is different. 


phreddyp said:


> I most certainly will not, reading your lame attempts to justify EV's is highly amusing! I can hardly wait for these attempts to morf into praises and the advantages for locomotives, aircraft, bulldozers, ships, farming machines and semi's that will all run on batteries. Some of the stuff you post has some merit, bottom line is that you are a little wind trying to blow hard!



We'll see how the semi things work out soon, Pepsi is deploying the Tesla Semi in a couple of weeks. Those others, those will have to wait for a more energy dense solution, batteries as we know them simply wont do it. I post what I know. If you view those posts as lame, not my problem. EVs are here to stay, if that bugs you, that again is your problem.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Concur, I've always said that the market si strong enough that the govt needs to get its damn thumb off the scale. That way the infrastructure can grow as market presence does. As for charge time, well, that goes back to use case. I spend 8-10 minutes gassing up around town three or four times a month. 40 minutes a month that I get back if I just plug in when I get home. If I spend some of those on road trips, thats cool with me, but everybody is different.
> 
> 
> We'll see how the semi things work out soon, Pepsi is deploying the Tesla Semi in a couple of weeks. Those others, those will have to wait for a more energy dense solution, batteries as we know them simply wont do it. I post what I know. If you view those posts as lame, not my problem. EVs are here to stay, if that bugs you, that again is your problem.


The funny part is I don't have a problem with EV's they are a technology whose time will come but not yet. The issue I have is folks like you who think they are ready to go, then try to tout them as the best thing since sliced bread. Sounds like YOU got suckered into buying one and now you want company. You go ahead and drive your not ready for prime time vehicle, one day you will be bitching about the piece of crap you got suckered into but I doubt that you will ever admit it. Nothing like a convert to carry the banner!


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> The funny part is I don't have a problem with EV's they are a technology whose time will come but not yet. The issue I have is folks like you who think they are ready to go, then try to tout them as the best thing since sliced bread. Sounds like YOU got suckered into buying one and now you want company. You go ahead and drive your not ready for prime time vehicle, one day you will be bitching about the piece of crap you got suckered into but I doubt that you will ever admit it. Nothing like a convert to carry the banner!



See, here's the thing. I didn't get suckered into anything. I don't own one. But I do own Tesla stock which I've owned long enough I'm still up money on it.  I only know two people that own them personally, one a Model 3 Performance which he loves, and another, oddly enough, an E-Golf, which he loves. I own a 2015 Cherokee, three older BMWs, a 96 Jeep Cherokee, and my BMW motorcycle. 

Here's the other thing, while we looking at assumptions you make about me and my position. I have never said they are right for everyone yet. Certainly not. This "ready for prime time" thing. Theres a curve to these things, like Bare talked about. They are NOT ready to take over 100%, or even 20% or our daily transportation needs. But that doesnt make them junk, nor pieces of crap. For use cases where they work, they work well. Not every nail is a 16d needing a 22oz framing hammer to drive it home. And using a sledge to put in a nail for a picture hanger doesn't make the sledge a bad hammer.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> See, here's the thing. I didn't get suckered into anything. I don't own one. But I do own Tesla stock which I've owned long enough I'm still up money on it.  I only know two people that own them personally, one a Model 3 Performance which he loves, and another, oddly enough, an E-Golf, which he loves. I own a 2015 Cherokee, three older BMWs, a 96 Jeep Cherokee, and my BMW motorcycle.
> 
> Here's the other thing, while we looking at assumptions you make about me and my position. I have never said they are right for everyone yet. Certainly not. This "ready for prime time" thing. Theres a curve to these things, like Bare talked about. They are NOT ready to take over 100%, or even 20% or our daily transportation needs. But that doesnt make them junk, nor pieces of crap. For use cases where they work, they work well. Not every nail is a 16d needing a 22oz framing hammer to drive it home. And using a sledge to put in a nail for a picture hanger doesn't make the sledge a bad hammer.


Thank you for validating my point! Mighty white of you.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> Thank you for validating my point! Mighty white of you.


Not sure how you read that in my post.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Not sure how you read that in my post.


Read it again!


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Take a breath. And of course your opinion doesn't need facts to be your opinion. But opinions backed by facts get more credit than those backed by memes and outrage.
> 
> 1. You of course decide what is and isn't a waste of you money.
> 
> 2. Drilling for oil and such and the materials needed for engines and transmissions also damage the earth.
> 
> 3. We are now reaching the point where there are enough batteries for recycling to be economically feasible. And we are recycling them. Too valuable to bury. Looks to be about a 90% reuse.
> 
> 4. The battery cost stories are generally all from older very low volume vehicles so that price data is a bit skewed. Of course, modenr batteries should last 300-500k, so most people will never face that problem.
> 
> 5. Fossil fuel power plants operate far more efficiently than ICE vehicle engines. A natural gas power plant is about %42 efficient, while the average road car ranges between 20%-35%. So while you are still burning, its less than if you used that fuel for powering vehicles directly. And the real answer for that point is to make a whole lot of nuke plants and good renewables paired with storage.
> 
> 6. How long it takes to charge is a variable. At home, 6-8 hours if you were low. And for the 85% of owners who charge at home, that's fine. Few people travel more than 30-40 miles a day so it takes far less time to top off. On road trips, a level three charger like a Tesla Supercharger, of which they just announced there are 40,000 of in the world, with installs increasing more rapidly all the time, you can get the charge you need in the amount of time it takes for a snack and bathroom break.
> 
> 7. Can you find charging stations, well, that depends on what you buy. With Tesla, its easy. Just enter your destination and the car simply plots your route and shows you where and for how long you need to charge. And the health of each individual charger and how busy it it is monitored in real time and used to plot your route. Other makes, not so much since they rely on a patchwork of spotty charging networks. But that should get better for them as time goes on.
> 
> 8. Batteries, well, Teslas newer packs have a design life of 300-500k. Other makers using pouch cells? No idea, but more makers are adopting hard cylindrical cells which should have good life.
> 
> 9. Parts? Depends on the part. And as time goes on, aftermarket parts makers will make more parts for them. Like any new thing, taks time to get enough installed base to make manufacture of aftermarket parts feasible.
> 
> 10. Yep, some catch on fire. Corrected for quantity, far less than ICE vehicles. And when they do, they generally do so in such a way that the occupants have plenty of time to pull over and safely escape. No explosions. Hitting a tree at 100mph will break a pack open, however.
> 
> I have links to prove all these points if you are interested.


Not interested fact is ICE vehicles are way better than EV's thats my opinion and they are never going to amount to anything atleast it aint happening in our lifetime


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Concur, I've always said that the market si strong enough that the govt needs to get its damn thumb off the scale. That way the infrastructure can grow as market presence does. As for charge time, well, that goes back to use case. I spend 8-10 minutes gassing up around town three or four times a month. 40 minutes a month that I get back if I just plug in when I get home. If I spend some of those on road trips, thats cool with me, but everybody is different.
> 
> 
> We'll see how the semi things work out soon, Pepsi is deploying the Tesla Semi in a couple of weeks. Those others, those will have to wait for a more energy dense solution, batteries as we know them simply wont do it. I post what I know. If you view those posts as lame, not my problem. EVs are here to stay, if that bugs you, that again is your problem.


What happens if you run out of power is there a tow truck that is going to bring you a charge the answer is no you will be towed to the station or wherever so you can recharge your toy car its not going to work and as soon as the GOP gets back in control it really isnt going to workI assume you must have a electric  vehicle because of the way you defend them thats ok Ill stick to pollution vehicles


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> So what would a truck like yours cost new? The current crop of EV trucks won't help. We don't have final cost or performance figures for the top end Cybertruck yet but it's supposed to have 500 or better for range, a 14k tow capacity and 3.5k payload.


Tow range and payload how long because that max is going to strain the batteries big time and you wont get as far as a ICE truck some people have tested their new for EV f150 and many have said it was a waste of money


----------



## Sneakers

Kinnakeet said:


> What happens if you run out of power


1st off..... PLEASE learn to use punctuation.  Commas are your friend.

2nd, what happens if your ICE runs out of gas?

3rd, if you're dumb enough to let your ICE or EV run out of  gas/charge, you deserve to be inconvenienced just for being stupid.


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> What happens if you run out of power is there a tow truck that is going to bring you a charge the answer is no you will be towed to the station or wherever so you can recharge your toy car its not going to work and as soon as the GOP gets back in control it really isnt going to workI assume you must have a electric  vehicle because of the way you defend them thats ok Ill stick to pollution vehicles





Kinnakeet said:


> Not interested fact is ICE vehicles are way better than EV's thats my opinion and they are never going to amount to anything atleast it aint happening in our lifetime





Kinnakeet said:


> Tow range and payload how long because that max is going to strain the batteries big time and you wont get as far as a ICE truck some people have tested their new for EV f150 and many have said it was a waste of money


Welcome to the party......... 

1. If you buy the right one, it plans your route so this doesnt happen on longer trips. And during regular driving, you should be watching your usage like any gas tank. When's the last time you ran out of gas? 
    a. Nope, sure dont own one. Do have one on order that I might receive in late 23 or early 24. 
    b. Go right ahead, I like choice and am fine if you want that. I'll always have a couple around myself. 
2. Well, if you think your opinion rises to facts. Better depends on what you want, of course. For you, maybe ICE is better, but you are not everyone. 
3. I agree the Lightning F-150 is a crappy execution. Ford screwed up by choosing the path of converting the ICE f-150 into an EV. That conversion path means its less efficient than a clean sheet design would be. 
4. My post related to the Tesla Cybertruck. Which folks mock for looking crazy, but those looks derive from a desire to both do truck stuff and be efficient. Exoskeleton, huge castings, structural battery pack. These design features let you use a smaller battery and get still get greater range. 
5. Battery degradation is a thing, true. But not as much as people think. And we dont have data on newer designs, which improve over time so EVs made today should suffer less than older ones. A lot of people try and equate Nissan Leaf data to modern EVs, and they dont really cross.


----------



## phreddyp

So far in this whole EV thing the ONLY things that makes any sense at all is how Dominos is planning to have an EV delivery fleet.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> So far in this whole EV thing the ONLY things that makes any sense at all is how Dominos is planning to have an EV delivery fleet.



Ask Pepsi in a few months. They are taking delivery of their first Tesla semi trucks Thursday. And they make sense for quite a lot of folks. Friend of my sons, has an E-Golf with like 100 miles of range. had it for two years now. He commutes from Adkins Road to just north of Leonardtown daily. Plugs it in when he gets home, never visits a gas station. For longer trips, he and the girlfriend have I think a RAV4. 

Its all about use cases, and the notion that if a product doesn't fit 100% of all possible use cases it sucks and is a failure is a pretty big logic gap. That's why we have Nissan Versas and Ford Expeditions on the road. Expedition sucks to take one person 10 miles to work, Versa sucks to take five people even two miles to work.


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Welcome to the party.........
> 
> 1. If you buy the right one, it plans your route so this doesnt happen on longer trips. And during regular driving, you should be watching your usage like any gas tank. When's the last time you ran out of gas?
> a. Nope, sure dont own one. Do have one on order that I might receive in late 23 or early 24.
> b. Go right ahead, I like choice and am fine if you want that. I'll always have a couple around myself.
> 2. Well, if you think your opinion rises to facts. Better depends on what you want, of course. For you, maybe ICE is better, but you are not everyone.
> 3. I agree the Lightning F-150 is a crappy execution. Ford screwed up by choosing the path of converting the ICE f-150 into an EV. That conversion path means its less efficient than a clean sheet design would be.
> 4. My post related to the Tesla Cybertruck. Which folks mock for looking crazy, but those looks derive from a desire to both do truck stuff and be efficient. Exoskeleton, huge castings, structural battery pack. These design features let you use a smaller battery and get still get greater range.
> 5. Battery degradation is a thing, true. But not as much as people think. And we dont have data on newer designs, which improve over time so EVs made today should suffer less than older ones. A lot of people try and equate Nissan Leaf data to modern EVs, and they dont really cross.


Are you a young person lets say born in the 90's because no person born in the 60's would say the crap you are


----------



## Kinnakeet

Sneakers said:


> 1st off..... PLEASE learn to use punctuation.  Commas are your friend.
> 
> 2nd, what happens if your ICE runs out of gas?
> 
> 3rd, if you're dumb enough to let your ICE or EV run out of  gas/charge, you deserve to be inconvenienced just for being stupid.


I could care less about commas asterisk or any other crap


----------



## Kinnakeet

Sneakers said:


> 1st off..... PLEASE learn to use punctuation.  Commas are your friend.
> 
> 2nd, what happens if your ICE runs out of gas?
> 
> 3rd, if you're dumb enough to let your ICE or EV run out of  gas/charge, you deserve to be inconvenienced just for being stupid.


If I run out of gas I can call my friends or a gas station to bring me gas


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> Are you a young person lets say born in the 90's because no person born in the 60's would say the crap you are



Man, you just keep getting stuff wrong. Born in 64, thanks very much. And what stuff wouldn't someone as old as I am say?


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> If I run out of gas I can call my friends or a gas station to bring me gas



Yeah, you call a couple of gas stations, let me know how that works out  But in any case, if there are enough people stupid enough to run out of charge, there will be service to bring you some juice. Oh, look, people are already on that. Really, adding a Tesla Powerpack onto a few tow trucks would be child's play. 









						Emergency mobile EV charging system - SETEC POWER
					

SETEC Power emergency mobile EV charging system with built-in 56kWh battery pack and 60kW DC fast charging, designed for mobile EV charging.




					www.setec-power.com


----------



## Kyle

Kinnakeet said:


> If I run out of gas I can call my friends or a gas station to bring me gas


----------



## RoseRed

Kinnakeet said:


> If I run out of gas I can call my friends or a gas station to bring me gas


Gas stations deliver gas?


----------



## stgislander

glhs837 said:


> Yeah, you call a couple of gas stations, let me know how that works out  But in any case, if there are enough people stupid enough to run out of charge, there will be service to bring you some juice. Oh, look, people are already on that. Really, adding a Tesla Powerpack onto a few tow trucks would be child's play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emergency mobile EV charging system - SETEC POWER
> 
> 
> SETEC Power emergency mobile EV charging system with built-in 56kWh battery pack and 60kW DC fast charging, designed for mobile EV charging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.setec-power.com


I imagine AAA is already working on that.


----------



## Sneakers

stgislander said:


> I imagine AAA is already working on that.


As well as other entrepreneurs.


----------



## Sneakers

Kinnakeet said:


> I could care less about commas asterisk or any other crap


You probably should.  Your posts take on the persona of a 4 year old.  Besides having to re-read your posts multiple times to understand them, no one takes you seriously.


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> if there are enough people stupid enough to run out of charge,


Agree... but every EV, and even my 2014 GMC ICE, has a estimated range remaining display.  As it gets low, indicators start popping up.  I don't have an EV, but I can only imagine it will start raising more urgent displays as you get closer to 'empty'.  If you choose to ignore the displays and indicators, you absolutely deserve to get stuck.


----------



## glhs837

stgislander said:


> I imagine AAA is already working on that.



Well, looky here...  81034 is a CO zip to use. 









						AAA Mobile Electric Vehicle Charging
					

AAA roadside services for electric vehicle owners include on-the-spot mobile charging, fixed charging stations, and charging station locators. Request electric vehicle mobile charging by phone or online.




					www.colorado.aaa.com


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> Agree... but every EV, and even my 2014 GMC ICE, has a estimated range remaining display.  As it gets low, indicators start popping up.  I don't have an EV, but I can only imagine it will start raising more urgent displays as you get closer to 'empty'.  If you choose to ignore the displays and indicators, you absolutely deserve to get stuck.



Well, IQs and common sense both come in curves....... And we cant leave them to starve........


----------



## stgislander

I'm just getting a kick out of someone busting ghls837's chops about his vehicle knowledge.


----------



## Ken King

Sneakers said:


> Agree... but every EV, and even my 2014 GMC ICE, has a estimated range remaining display.  As it gets low, indicators start popping up.  I don't have an EV, but I can only imagine it will start raising more urgent displays as you get closer to 'empty'.  If you choose to ignore the displays and indicators, you absolutely deserve to get stuck.


Don't they go into a limp/turtle mode to reduce consumption of the last of the power so that you can maybe get to a charge point or at least off a busy road?


----------



## RoseRed




----------



## Sneakers

Ken King said:


> Don't they go into a limp/turtle mode to reduce consumption of the last of the power so that you can maybe get to a charge point or at least off a busy road?


After a quick search, apparently yes.


----------



## Kyle

I'll buy an electric car when they come with an LCARS interface, and not before.


----------



## Sneakers

Kyle said:


> I'll buy an electric car when they come with an LCARS interface, and not before.


TNG screen displays would be kinda neat too.


----------



## stgislander

Kyle said:


> I'll buy an electric car when they come with an LCARS interface, and not before.


Do you think they'll ever be able to generate enough power so I can get the mini-rail gun option?


----------



## Gilligan

Kyle said:


> I'll buy an electric car when they come with an LCARS interface, and not before.


I had to google that one...


----------



## Kyle

stgislander said:


> Do you think they'll ever be able to generate enough power so I can get the mini-rail gun option?


Nice option. 

It'll work better than Garmin Traffic service.


----------



## Kinnakeet

RoseRed said:


> Gas stations deliver gas?


Couple close to me do..go ahead buy that 50,000$ fire pit waiting to happen and then buy the 30,000$ battrey pack when yours die's and remember all the child labor digging that battery materials to make you happy those poor little kids getting 25 cents a month and a bag of rice all so you can save the planet and go to Burger King


----------



## Kinnakeet

glhs837 said:


> Yeah, you call a couple of gas stations, let me know how that works out  But in any case, if there are enough people stupid enough to run out of charge, there will be service to bring you some juice. Oh, look, people are already on that. Really, adding a Tesla Powerpack onto a few tow trucks would be child's play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emergency mobile EV charging system - SETEC POWER
> 
> 
> SETEC Power emergency mobile EV charging system with built-in 56kWh battery pack and 60kW DC fast charging, designed for mobile EV charging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.setec-power.com


At what cost


----------



## RoseRed

Kinnakeet said:


> Couple close to me do..go ahead buy that 50,000$ fire pit waiting to happen and then buy the 30,000$ battrey pack when yours die's and remember all the child labor digging that battery materials to make you happy those poor little kids getting 25 cents a month and a bag of rice all so you can save the planet and go to Burger King


WTF are you talking about?


----------



## GURPS

Kyle said:


> I'll buy an electric car when they come with an LCARS interface, and not before.




Hmm LCARS is ok ....










						Get LCARS Interface from the Microsoft Store
					

Welcome to 24th Century Computing!  LCARS Interface is an application that features a beautiful design inspired by the futuristic computers that were first seen in Star Trek: The Next Generation.  This product suite is designed to be used for entertainment purposes, role playing, and fan film...




					apps.microsoft.com


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> At what cost





1 You invent a problem that doesn't really exist for anyone over say a 70 IQ. 
2. I show you (with real factual references, not FB memes) its not really a problem, and even so, people are working solutions already. 
3. Then you get on about cost. 

Lets face it, you have no real knowledge other than FB memes about these topics and are trying to bluster your way through these "discussions". 

Now about "fire pit". The data to date shows that corrected for numbers on the raod, ICE vehicles burn a helluva a lot more. And battery replacement is really rare. And wont cost virtually anyone who buys a modern mass produced EV anywhere near 30K.


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

I for one don


glhs837 said:


> Welcome to the party.........
> 
> 1. If you buy the right one, it plans your route so this doesnt happen on longer trips. And during regular driving, you should be watching your usage like any gas tank. When's the last time you ran out of gas?
> a. Nope, sure dont own one. Do have one on order that I might receive in late 23 or early 24.
> b. Go right ahead, I like choice and am fine if you want that. I'll always have a couple around myself.
> 2. Well, if you think your opinion rises to facts. Better depends on what you want, of course. For you, maybe ICE is better, but you are not everyone.
> 3. I agree the Lightning F-150 is a crappy execution. Ford screwed up by choosing the path of converting the ICE f-150 into an EV. That conversion path means its less efficient than a clean sheet design would be.
> 4. My post related to the Tesla Cybertruck. Which folks mock for looking crazy, but those looks derive from a desire to both do truck stuff and be efficient. Exoskeleton, huge castings, structural battery pack. These design features let you use a smaller battery and get still get greater range.
> 5. Battery degradation is a thing, true. But not as much as people think. And we dont have data on newer designs, which improve over time so EVs made today should suffer less than older ones. A lot of people try and equate Nissan Leaf data to modern EVs, and they dont really cross.


t want to plan my trip around charging stations.


glhs837 said:


> 1 You invent a problem that doesn't really exist for anyone over say a 70 IQ.
> 2. I show you (with real factual references, not FB memes) its not really a problem, and even so, people are working solutions already.
> 3. Then you get on about cost.
> 
> Lets face it, you have no real knowledge other than FB memes about these topics and are trying to bluster your way through these "discussions".
> 
> Now about "fire pit". The data to date shows that corrected for numbers on the raod, ICE vehicles burn a helluva a lot more. And battery replacement is really rare. And wont cost virtually anyone who buys a modern mass produced EV anywhere near 30K.


the number of ICE vehicles on the road out numbers EV greatly.  Just due to that the metrics will be skewed on ICE burning a helluva lot more. 

Not enough modern mass produced EV’s out there to really get some good numbers on battery replacement yet.  Time will tell on this one.


----------



## glhs837

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> I for one don't  want to plan my trip around charging stations.
> 
> the number of ICE vehicles on the road out numbers EV greatly.  Just due to that the metrics will be skewed on ICE burning a helluva lot more.
> 
> Not enough modern mass produced EV’s out there to really get some good numbers on battery replacement yet.  Time will tell on this one.



And you shouldn't if you don't want to. Unless you are under the age of say 15, nobody alive today will see the end of all ICE cars. But if you buy a Tesla, your routing shouldnt really vary from where you might go with a gas car anyway, Give me three trips you routinely take. 

For me, I go to Philly, wife and I are planning a trip to Devens MA. Were we taking an EV, I'll bet our routing changes in virtually no way whatsoever over the route we might take in an ICE car. Went to Atlanta with my son a month ago. I just mapped that trip for a long range Model 3.









						Go Anywhere | Tesla
					

Stay charged anywhere you go, with access to our global charging networks. Explore a route and we’ll find the best locations to keep you charged along the way and upon arrival.




					www.tesla.com
				





Its exactly the same routing he and I took in his 135i. Looks like charging might add an hour to the trip. No charging stop longer than 25, with two 20 minute ones and one 15 minute. Google maps shows 10 and a half hours, but of course it doesnt account for food or gas breaks. While those are baked into the charging stops.


----------



## glhs837

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> the number of ICE vehicles on the road out numbers EV greatly.  Just due to that the metrics will be skewed on ICE burning a helluva lot more.
> 
> Not enough modern mass produced EV’s out there to really get some good numbers on battery replacement yet.  Time will tell on this one.


Thats why I said corrected. When you account for the numbers of both on the road, ICE cars still burn more frequently. 






						EV Fires: Less Common But More Problematic?
					

IDTechEx Research Article: Fires in electric vehicles (EVs) certainly gain a lot of media attention in comparison to their internal combustion engine (ICE) counterparts. But a crucial question for the future of mobility is whether EVs are actually any more likely to catch fire than an ICE...



					www.idtechex.com
				






> A recent study conducted by AutoInsuranceEZ using data from the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) showed that electric cars in the US caught fire at a rate of 25.1 per 100,000 sales compared to 1,530 for ICE vehicles and 3,475 for hybrids.



And we are getting good data from fleet operators like Tesloop. Numbers look good so far, although I have concerns about the longevity of pouch and prismatic cells. I think the cylindrical hard cells will be the best for really long term.


----------



## Kinnakeet

Sneakers said:


> You probably should.  Your posts take on the persona of a 4 year old.  Besides having to re-read your posts multiple times to understand them, no one takes you seriously.





RoseRed said:


> WTF are you talking about?





glhs837 said:


> 1 You invent a problem that doesn't really exist for anyone over say a 70 IQ.
> 2. I show you (with real factual references, not FB memes) its not really a problem, and even so, people are working solutions already.
> 3. Then you get on about cost.
> 
> Lets face it, you have no real knowledge other than FB memes about these topics and are trying to bluster your way through these "discussions".
> 
> Now about "fire pit". The data to date shows that corrected for numbers on the raod, ICE vehicles burn a helluva a lot more. And battery replacement is really rare. And wont cost virtually anyone who buys a modern mass produced EV anywhere near 30K.


I invented something
How long does it take to charge a Tesla at a charging station?



Tesla Charging Times By Model and Charger TypeSuperChargerNEMA 14-50 240v PlugModel 3 272 miles of range25-30 mins8 to 12 hoursModel Y 326 miles of range25 mins12 hoursModel S405 miles of range30 mins16 to 17 hours
Not bad if you want to wait while on a trip, as for me I would much rather gas n go.
I assume there is a fee to charge while on the road?
As you can tell Im no fan of electric vehicles and never will be.
70 IQ I do not think so
And 1 should not judge me by what I post,I guess my humor is different than others.


----------



## glhs837

Kinnakeet said:


> I invented something
> How long does it take to charge a Tesla at a charging station?
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla Charging Times By Model and Charger TypeSuperChargerNEMA 14-50 240v PlugModel 3 272 miles of range25-30 mins8 to 12 hoursModel Y 326 miles of range25 mins12 hoursModel S405 miles of range30 mins16 to 17 hours
> Not bad if you want to wait while on a trip, as for me I would much rather gas n go.
> I assume there is a fee to charge while on the road?
> As you can tell Im no fan of electric vehicles and never will be.
> 70 IQ I do not think so
> And 1 should not judge me by what I post,I guess my humor is different than others.


I wasnt talking about your IQ. Although your reading comprehension could be a bit higher, IMO. Nobody over an IQ of 70 should ever run out of charge was what I was saying. And given IQ distribution in the population, it just doesn't happen often enough to spend much time worrying about.  The vehicle is constantly telling you what your state of charge is. And the best ones tell you where to go to get some.

About charging. Yep, gas is faster. And your preference is just that. A preference. Other folks dont mind spending a little time charging in return for lower cost both for fueling and maintenance. About those long times charging at home. Not super relevant, although true. Very very few people drive the range to zero before plugging in at home. The average American drives 30 miles a day. Even if you triple that, your home recharge time is much lower than that chart shows.

I don't care if you are a fan. My point has never been to force anyone to be a fan. Just for those that are not to be willing to learn the true facts, not memes. You can remain not a fan forever, and drive a gas car forever, I know I'll always have one or two around. But when you post BS about them, I'll correct it.


----------



## Kyle

Gilligan said:


> I had to google that one...


:ihadanerdmoment:


----------



## Sneakers

I had been wondering about this...


----------



## TPD

Gilligan said:


> I had to google that one...


Me too


----------



## Bare-ya-cuda

Here I was at a hotel off I-10 in Florida. When I pulled up at 6pm there was and EV plugged in right next where I parked by an extension cord.  When I left at 9am the next morning they were just sitting in the car with the cord still attached.  Guess it didn’t fully charge over night.


----------



## Sneakers

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> Here I was at a hotel off I-10 in Florida. When I pulled up at 6pm there was and EV plugged in right next where I parked by an extension cord.  When I left at 9am the next morning they were just sitting in the car with the cord still attached.  Guess it didn’t fully charge over night.


120V Level 1 charging does take a long time.


----------



## glhs837

Bare-ya-cuda said:


> Here I was at a hotel off I-10 in Florida. When I pulled up at 6pm there was and EV plugged in right next where I parked by an extension cord.  When I left at 9am the next morning they were just sitting in the car with the cord still attached.  Guess it didn’t fully charge over night.



Sounds like piss poor planning resulting in piss poor performance. Or maybe they didnt need to be anywhere that morning.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Sounds like piss poor planning resulting in piss poor performance. Or maybe they didnt need to be anywhere that morning.


Nice try, the EV is a piece of crap, don't try to blame it on the driver!


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> Nice try, the EV is a piece of crap, don't try to blame it on the driver!



Could be the vehicle, do you know what kind it was? A Leaf, for instance, is a pretty poor example unless your only use is under say 30 miles a day and never take a road trip.. 

But without more data, we dont know, and cant know. Could be idiot driver, could be an EV poorly suited for that task.


----------



## Sneakers

Could have been any number of issues.  Maybe there was a Level 2 charger, but like so many right now, not working, so they had to opt for Level 1.  Personally, my vote is for poor planning.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Could be the vehicle, do you know what kind it was? A Leaf, for instance, is a pretty poor example unless your only use is under say 30 miles a day and never take a road trip..
> 
> But without more data, we dont know, and cant know. Could be idiot driver, could be an EV poorly suited for that task.


Don't need to, EV's have at least 10 years before they will be worth owning and by then road taxes will be applied to them making them even more unaffordable!


----------



## Kyle

phreddyp said:


> Don't need to, EV's have at least 10 years before they will be worth owning and *by then road taxes will be applied to them making them even more unaffordable!*



Whatever form it takes... It's gonna be a fun meltdown when it happens.   












						Electric Vehicles Will Need New Taxation Or Governments Will Lose Billions
					

Governments could lose billions in fuel tax revenue from the shift to EVs. But this could be an opportunity for drivers to pay more fairly according to use.




					www.forbes.com
				






			https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/interactive/2021/electric-mileage-tax/
		










						Is A Pay-Per-Mile Tax On The Way?
					

We break down some of the misinformation that's been floating around surrounding a Biden administration pilot program for American drivers.




					www.lemonade.com
				












						As Electric Vehicles Shrink Gas Tax Revenue, More States May Tax Mileage
					

This year, legislators in at least eight states debated mileage taxes on drivers of electric vehicles.




					www.pewtrusts.org


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> Don't need to, EV's have at least 10 years before they will be worth owning and by then road taxes will be applied to them making them even more unaffordable!


Yet millions find them worth owning today. And road taxes should be applied. Just not sure what the best way is.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> Yet millions find them worth owning today. And road taxes should be applied. Just not sure what the best way is.


Sucker born every minute!


----------



## Sneakers

Very interesting, but a bit long, video on battery swap in Norway.  At the end he summarizes and makes a real valid point to this process; if you have a "battery subscription", you no longer own the battery, you don't care how you use or charge it, you don't worry about cost of replacement.  It's like a propane bottle exchange.  Let the propane dealer worry about the health of the bottle, let the battery swap business worry about the health of a battery pac.  Not sure why they say that American isn't ripe for this, other than there is no standard as of now for the battery dimensions or mounting, so it's very model specific.  Anyway, I think it's a great idea.


----------



## Gilligan

Meanwhile...back in the environment....

https://restofworld.org/2022/indonesia-china-ev-nickel/?utm_source=pocket-newtab


----------



## Gilligan

Sneakers said:


> Very interesting, but a bit long, video on battery swap in Norway.  At the end he summarizes and makes a real valid point to this process; if you have a "battery subscription", you no longer own the battery, you don't care how you use or charge it, you don't worry about cost of replacement.  It's like a propane bottle exchange.  Let the propane dealer worry about the health of the bottle, let the battery swap business worry about the health of a battery pac.  Not sure why they say that American isn't ripe for this, other than there is no standard as of now for the battery dimensions or mounting, so it's very model specific.  Anyway, I think it's a great idea.



Of course Norway has the highest per-capita ownership of EVs, so not surprised that innovative ideas relating to operations and maintenance are coming from there.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> Very interesting, but a bit long, video on battery swap in Norway.  At the end he summarizes and makes a real valid point to this process; if you have a "battery subscription", you no longer own the battery, you don't care how you use or charge it, you don't worry about cost of replacement.  It's like a propane bottle exchange.  Let the propane dealer worry about the health of the bottle, let the battery swap business worry about the health of a battery pac.  Not sure why they say that American isn't ripe for this, other than there is no standard as of now for the battery dimensions or mounting, so it's very model specific.  Anyway, I think it's a great idea.




Norways pretty small, but when you think about scaling for the US, how many packs do you need on the backside? Since you could never in a million years mandate pack standardization, it simply wont work here. The logisitcs of managing inventory for packs would be insane.


Gilligan said:


> Of course Norway has the highest per-capita ownership of EVs, so not surprised that innovative ideas relating to operations and maintenance are coming from there.



Well, its a Chinese company with 900 stations in China already, but I do get your point. Passed an older Model S this afternoon here, he didn't look concerned about driving one in Norway in the winter.


----------



## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> Norways pretty small,


You missed the salient point.  Norway has always always had unlimited "free" electricity from their hydro-power. .  Amazing what a difference that makes, huh?


----------



## stgislander

Gilligan said:


> You missed the salient point.  Norway has always always had unlimited "free" electricity from their hydro-power. .  Amazing what a difference that makes, huh?


Not really"free" according to our friend over there.  Sounds like the govt taxes the hell out of it.


----------



## Gilligan

stgislander said:


> Not really"free" according to our friend over there.  Sounds like the govt taxes the hell out of it.



i meant "free" as in unlimited natural resource. The Norwegian gummint makes sure that nothing is "free"" when it comes to taxes...with one glaring exception: EVs are not subjected to the monstrous import tax that ICE vehicles are.


----------



## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> You missed the salient point.  Norway has always always had unlimited "free" electricity from their hydro-power. .  Amazing what a difference that makes, huh?


The point seemed to be about the innovation, but the battery swap innovation under discussion wasn't a Norse innovation.


----------



## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> The point seemed to be about the innovation, but the battery swap innovation under discussion wasn't a Norse innovation.


Point being...the country with most per capita EV useage is gonna innovate ...and first.


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> The point seemed to be about the innovation, but the battery swap innovation under discussion wasn't a Norse innovation.


Really doesn't matter who pioneered it or innovated it, they've actually implemented it, even if it is on a small scale.  Good innovations have a way of propagating.  And your argument about scalability only applies to today, with current technology, with current battery tech. Tomorrow it may be possible, and I like to think things are possible.  I've made a career out of doing what others told me wasn't possible.


----------



## Gilligan

Dang...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politic...hRCOGOVpB6lHg2y7t8ZV1TF0BcemC557bFpxnd0itrXx4


----------



## Kyle

Gilligan said:


> Dang...
> 
> https://www.foxbusiness.com/politic...hRCOGOVpB6lHg2y7t8ZV1TF0BcemC557bFpxnd0itrXx4


turning California.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> Really doesn't matter who pioneered it or innovated it, they've actually implemented it, even if it is on a small scale.  Good innovations have a way of propagating.  And your argument about scalability only applies to today, with current technology, with current battery tech. Tomorrow it may be possible, and I like to think things are possible.  I've made a career out of doing what others told me wasn't possible.



I mean the technology of batteries doesn't really matter for swapping, does it? You still need extra stock to keep in the charging locations not doing anything but waiting or someone to come get them. Think of the prices you pay for taking a rental car to the airport vs taking one back home away from the airport. Now, scale the reasons for that. Try and model and manage battery inventory flow for 10-15 million cars. 

Now, as charging tech improves, and it will, the minuscule time savings with swap just are not worth the logistic nightmare, IMO.  I really think Nios only real reason for championing swapping is to keep you in ecosystem and spending with them.


----------



## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> Point being...the country with most per capita EV useage is gonna innovate ...and first.


Gotta say, I was quite impressed with the drivers during my slushy snowing 30 minute two lane road commute this mornings. Was slowed down below the 80km limit for only about three minutes before the slowbees pulled into a side lot and let everyone else crank it back up to 90 or so.


----------



## GURPS

Tesla ordered to upgrade self-driving computer for free due to ‘false advertising’​

Tesla has claimed that all its vehicles produced since 2016 have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving with future software updates.

The automaker has yet to deliver on that promise, and the company actually had to upgrade the hardware in vehicles produced since 2016. Most notably, Tesla had to upgrade the onboard computer on which it runs its self-driving software. The new computer is known as Hardware 3.0 or the FSD computer.

To make good on its 2016 promise that vehicles produced going forward would have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving, Tesla offered a free computer retrofit to owners who ordered the Full Self-Driving package.

The fact that Tesla was doing the retrofit for free squashed people’s concerns about needing to update hardware to access self-driving.


----------



## glhs837

GURPS said:


> Tesla ordered to upgrade self-driving computer for free due to ‘false advertising’​
> 
> Tesla has claimed that all its vehicles produced since 2016 have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving with future software updates.
> 
> The automaker has yet to deliver on that promise, and the company actually had to upgrade the hardware in vehicles produced since 2016. Most notably, Tesla had to upgrade the onboard computer on which it runs its self-driving software. The new computer is known as Hardware 3.0 or the FSD computer.
> 
> To make good on its 2016 promise that vehicles produced going forward would have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving, Tesla offered a free computer retrofit to owners who ordered the Full Self-Driving package.
> 
> The fact that Tesla was doing the retrofit for free squashed people’s concerns about needing to update hardware to access self-driving.



So the key here is that folks who purchased FSD did get a free upgrade with no court order required. The problem was that the company saw no need to upgrade folks who didnt purchase it. The guy who sued said that he _might_ use it on a monthly subscription basis, and so Tesla should pay for the upgrade.


----------



## LightRoasted

For your consideration ...

I believe ICE vs EV is a zero sum game. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Do EV's have utility? Sure, in some environments. But EV's are actually a net negative when it comes to cost, manufacturing, and the energy and time required to charge them.

If people want to get around in the most environmently friendly and cheap way, they should get one of those little box cars that get 40+mpg.


----------



## Sneakers

This goes back to the question of "what happens if I run out of charge?"  A real world test of 4 vehicles.  Not surprisingly, there is an abundance of time between notification of "zero" battery and when it actually stops moving.  Like 10 to 25 miles.  Interestingly, the recovery vehicle uses an ICE generator, not a rechargeable battery pac.  The reasoning is sound... you can service multiple sequential customers without having to go back to the shop and recharge.


----------



## PeoplesElbow

GURPS said:


> Tesla ordered to upgrade self-driving computer for free due to ‘false advertising’​
> 
> Tesla has claimed that all its vehicles produced since 2016 have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving with future software updates.
> 
> The automaker has yet to deliver on that promise, and the company actually had to upgrade the hardware in vehicles produced since 2016. Most notably, Tesla had to upgrade the onboard computer on which it runs its self-driving software. The new computer is known as Hardware 3.0 or the FSD computer.
> 
> To make good on its 2016 promise that vehicles produced going forward would have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving, Tesla offered a free computer retrofit to owners who ordered the Full Self-Driving package.
> 
> The fact that Tesla was doing the retrofit for free squashed people’s concerns about needing to update hardware to access self-driving.


Musk's Asperger's makes his mouth write checks that his accounting department doesn't want to cash.  It is probably what makes him hyper focused though and has contributed to his success, so I can't bash him too much for it.


----------



## Sneakers

This is a long (45 min) video on cold weather charging.  This guy is full of good info, but drinks way too many red bulls and coffee...   Never shuts up.  Anyway, ElectrifyAmerica is in the process of deploying all brand new chargers, and a whole series of them do not work in the cold.  They show as working and available, but will not charge.  He also has some insight on how they determine "availability" of a charge station.  If 50% of the chargers in a specific location are working, they are listed as 100% available, because you can move to another working charger. 

I've given the jist of the vid above if you don't want to spend the time watching, but I found it insightful.  Advance to 38:00 for his summary.

And yes glhs, every Tesla charger they tried works flawlessly, and he says so.


----------



## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> This is a long (45 min) video on cold weather charging.  This guy is full of good info, but drinks way too many red bulls and coffee...   Never shuts up.  Anyway, ElectrifyAmerica is in the process of deploying all brand new chargers, and a whole series of them do not work in the cold.  They show as working and available, but will not charge.  He also has some insight on how they determine "availability" of a charge station.  If 50% of the chargers in a specific location are working, they are listed as 100% available, because you can move to another working charger.
> 
> I've given the jist of the vid above if you don't want to spend the time watching, but I found it insightful.  Advance to 38:00 for his summary.
> 
> *And yes glhs, every Tesla charger they tried works flawlessly, and he says so.*




And this is why I don't recommend buying any other EV unless you never need to fast charge, or have one that can use the SC network. People fall for the "Umpty thousand charging stations!!!!! We have almost as many as the Big Guys!!!" 

But they never ever break out which levels make up which percentage of those stations, nor how many charge points each station has. Nor availability, as noted in that report.


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> And this is why I don't recommend buying any other EV unless you never need to fast charge, or have one that can use the SC network. People fall for the "Umpty thousand charging stations!!!!! We have almost as many as the Big Guys!!!"
> 
> But they never ever break out which levels make up which percentage of those stations, nor how many charge points each station has. Nor availability, as noted in that report.


Don't need to break any of them out, They are ALL junk, that's all you need to know.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> Don't need to break any of them out, They are ALL junk, that's all you need to know.



When we form the Forced EV Adoption Teams, we're coming to your house first  Strap your ass into a first gen Leaf and you'll like it!!!


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> When we form the Forced EV Adoption Teams, we're coming to your house first  Strap your ass into a first gen Leaf and you'll like it!!!


That's the only way they are going to get 3/4 of the population to buy one!


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> That's the only way they are going to get 3/4 of the population to buy one!



A quarter works just fine, and by the time those are done, the cars will be be even better and more people will be fine with them. Most of them through being exposed to facts and not memes....  "Look dear, the Jones have been driving their EVs with no problems for years, I rode with them to the store the other day and it was so quiet and smooth....... they don't ever visit gas stations unless they want a snack. Just plug in when they get home".


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> A quarter works just fine, and by the time those are done, the cars will be be even better and more people will be fine with them. Most of them through being exposed to facts and not memes....  "Look dear, the Jones have been driving their EVs with no problems for years, I rode with them to the store the other day and it was so quiet and smooth....... they don't ever visit gas stations unless they want a snack. Just plug in when they get home".


I am certain that they work just fine for a 6 mile round trip!


----------



## Sneakers

phreddyp said:


> That's the only way they are going to get 3/4 of the population to buy one!


I think you're wrong here.  As kinks get worked out and prices drop, people will buy in, but not to replace their ICE, but to supplement, for a 2nd or 3rd car, just to get away from buying gas.  I fall into that category.  The "all or nothing total ICE replacement" concept just isn't reality for many years yet.


phreddyp said:


> I am certain that they work just fine for a 6 mile round trip!


Your prejudice is clouding reality.  Most are getting 300 miles or better now.  The one I have slated for a 2024 delivery can do 1000 miles on one charge with the 100kWh battery.  I opted for the 42 kWh battery which is good for 400 miles.  With built-in solar adding up to 40 miles a day and the optional solar panel kit, I may never have to plug in.  And I rather experiment and find out than be a nay-sayer and miss the fun!


----------



## phreddyp

Sneakers said:


> I think you're wrong here.  As kinks get worked out and prices drop, people will buy in, but not to replace their ICE, but to supplement, for a 2nd or 3rd car, just to get away from buying gas.  I fall into that category.  The "all or nothing total ICE replacement" concept just isn't reality for many years yet.
> 
> Your prejudice is clouding reality.  Most are getting 300 miles or better now.  The one I have slated for a 2024 delivery can do 1000 miles on one charge with the 100kWh battery.  I opted for the 42 kWh battery which is good for 400 miles.  With built-in solar adding up to 40 miles a day and the optional solar panel kit, I may never have to plug in.  And I rather experiment and find out than be a nay-sayer and miss the fun!


Don't have to be a naysayer my greenie neighbor has one , she loves not buying gas but hates the charging time and reduction in range of her EV. She has had it 3 years now and tells me her range has dropped at least 20%. If you bought one all I can say to you is good luck. From what I understand battery tech has not changed a whole lot in 3 years, so a 20% drop is range is a lot by anyone's standards.


----------



## Kyle

I have a 20% reduction in range on my F150 too.

But it’s because I mash my foot down and make those 400 horses roar.


----------



## glhs837

phreddyp said:


> Don't have to be a naysayer my greenie neighbor has one , she loves not buying gas but hates the charging time and reduction in range of her EV. She has had it 3 years now and tells me her range has dropped at least 20%. If you bought one all I can say to you is good luck. From what I understand battery tech has not changed a whole lot in 3 years, so a 20% drop is range is a lot by anyone's standards.


 
I think we've covered this before. What kind does she have?


----------



## RoseRed

Kyle said:


> I have a 20% reduction in range on my F150 too.
> 
> But it’s because I mash my foot down and make those 400 horses roar.


Sometimes you got to let those ponies go!


----------



## Sneakers

phreddyp said:


> Don't have to be a naysayer my greenie neighbor has one , she loves not buying gas but hates the charging time and reduction in range of her EV. She has had it 3 years now and tells me her range has dropped at least 20%. If you bought one all I can say to you is good luck. From what I understand battery tech has not changed a whole lot in 3 years, so a 20% drop is range is a lot by anyone's standards.


So does your ICE, but you just aren't looking.


> Cold weather effects can vary by vehicle model. However, expect conventional gasoline vehicles to suffer a *10% to 20% fuel economy loss in city driving and a 15% to 33% loss on short trips*.


And as the car ages, fuel economy drops as well.


----------



## phreddyp

Sneakers said:


> So does your ICE, but you just aren't looking.
> 
> And as the car ages, fuel economy drops as well.


Not anywhere close to 20% and that's after only 3 years, if yours has you have neglected proper maintenance and as we ALL know batteries perform MUCH, MUCH better in a cold environment!


----------



## phreddyp

glhs837 said:


> I think we've covered this before. What kind does she have?


Not sure I will have to check.


----------



## Gilligan

Post spotted on FB...from a proud Tesla owner out in the frozen midwest:  "Mileage way down in the bitter cool.  Going station to station hoping get home. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




 All bundled up inside. Afraid to run heater because drain power."


Nice. Imagine being stuck/stranded in one of the many highways closures that have occurred recently. And the battery runs out.


----------



## Kyle

Gilligan said:


> Post spotted on FB...from a proud Tesla owner out in the frozen midwest:  "Mileage way down in the bitter cool.  Going station to station hoping get home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All bundled up inside. Afraid to run heater because drain power."
> 
> 
> Nice. Imagine being stuck/stranded in one of the many highways closures that have occurred recently. And the battery runs out.


They need to get one of those Tesla Model P's. ( Perpetuala )


----------



## Kyle

Is a Cold Climate a Deterrent to EV Ownership?

This time of year, most people have one thing on their minds: the weather. As freezing temperatures descend across the country and snow and ice become a hazard, EV drivers face another potential issue—how cold affects the battery and range of their electric cars. 

Cold temperatures do affect electric vehicles and steal some of their range. The amount of range lost depends on many factors such as the car itself, its potential range in normal weather, and whether the heat is on. According to AAA’s “Cold Weather Can Cut Electric Car Range by Over 40%”, EVs often lose 12% of their range in cold weather, but the loss leaps to 41% with the heater on full blast.









						Is a Cold Climate a Deterrent to EV Ownership? : Blink Charging
					

Click here to read our blog about, Is a Cold Climate a Deterrent to EV Ownership?. Blink Charging provides high-quality and easy to use EV Charging Stations and Networks for homes and businesses.




					blinkcharging.com
				





Electric Vehicles in Winter


Cold weather reduces efficiency of all vehicle types, not just EVs. According to FuelEconomy.gov, conventional gasoline vehicles typically have a 20% reduction in fuel economy at 20° F. However, it is often more noticeable with an EV and is especially concerning for all-electric vehicle drivers who need to know they have enough range to reach their travel destinations.

Keeping the inside of the vehicle warm in winter is usually the biggest drain on EV range, especially when ambient temperatures plunge below 15° F. Lithium ion batteries used in EVs also do not perform as well in cold temperatures, which can lead to further range reductions.

*Chart*

Getting through the winter in your EV begins with purchasing the right vehicle for your needs. Most new all-electric models offer more than 200 miles of official range, so even with winter reductions many EV drivers are rarely inconvenienced by these issues. On the other hand, older used EV models may offer less than 100 miles of range which can present significant challenges if drivers aren’t aware of winter reductions when purchasing.




			https://www.driveelectricvt.com/blog/winter


----------



## Gilligan




----------



## phreddyp

Kyle said:


> Is a Cold Climate a Deterrent to EV Ownership?
> 
> This time of year, most people have one thing on their minds: the weather. As freezing temperatures descend across the country and snow and ice become a hazard, EV drivers face another potential issue—how cold affects the battery and range of their electric cars.
> 
> Cold temperatures do affect electric vehicles and steal some of their range. The amount of range lost depends on many factors such as the car itself, its potential range in normal weather, and whether the heat is on. According to AAA’s “Cold Weather Can Cut Electric Car Range by Over 40%”, EVs often lose 12% of their range in cold weather, but the loss leaps to 41% with the heater on full blast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is a Cold Climate a Deterrent to EV Ownership? : Blink Charging
> 
> 
> Click here to read our blog about, Is a Cold Climate a Deterrent to EV Ownership?. Blink Charging provides high-quality and easy to use EV Charging Stations and Networks for homes and businesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blinkcharging.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electric Vehicles in Winter
> 
> 
> Cold weather reduces efficiency of all vehicle types, not just EVs. According to FuelEconomy.gov, conventional gasoline vehicles typically have a 20% reduction in fuel economy at 20° F. However, it is often more noticeable with an EV and is especially concerning for all-electric vehicle drivers who need to know they have enough range to reach their travel destinations.
> 
> Keeping the inside of the vehicle warm in winter is usually the biggest drain on EV range, especially when ambient temperatures plunge below 15° F. Lithium ion batteries used in EVs also do not perform as well in cold temperatures, which can lead to further range reductions.
> 
> *Chart*
> 
> Getting through the winter in your EV begins with purchasing the right vehicle for your needs. Most new all-electric models offer more than 200 miles of official range, so even with winter reductions many EV drivers are rarely inconvenienced by these issues. On the other hand, older used EV models may offer less than 100 miles of range which can present significant challenges if drivers aren’t aware of winter reductions when purchasing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.driveelectricvt.com/blog/winter


FuelEconomy.gov says it all! LOL


----------



## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> Post spotted on FB...from a proud Tesla owner out in the frozen midwest:  "Mileage way down in the bitter cool.  Going station to station hoping get home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All bundled up inside. Afraid to run heater because drain power."
> 
> 
> Nice. Imagine being stuck/stranded in one of the many highways closures that have occurred recently. And the battery runs out.


Need more info. Could be just poor planning.  I see most folks looking at 15-20% loss. And there have been people stuck and frozen to death. ICE isn't a magic bullet to save your life. In fact, being buried is better in EV since there no tailpipe to block.


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