# Understanding Taqiyya



## mAlice

Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah

This is why I don't believe the Muslims who say they are not part of the extremists.

You are either a Muslim, hell bent on killing everyone who isn't Muslim, or you aren't.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm


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## Larry Gude

That's not fair. The VAST majority of people are just folks. Most Muslims are Muslims because it's easier than not being one, not because they are faithful to the Koran. Same with every faith. 
Taqiyya, the concept, could also be translated to 'US politics 101'.


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## b23hqb

Larry Gude said:


> That's not fair. The VAST majority of people are just folks. Most Muslims are Muslims because it's easier than not being one, not because they are faithful to the Koran. Same with every faith.
> Taqiyya, the concept, could also be translated to 'US politics 101'.



Fair or not, more reason to not believe, or trust Muslims. When their "faith" is that open to lying and deceiving anyone not of themselves, they are fair game for scrutiny and wariness, and if necessary, public condemnation. Just like our elected officials.


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## itsbob

Larry Gude said:


> That's not fair. The VAST majority of people are just folks. Most Muslims are Muslims because it's easier than not being one, not because they are faithful to the Koran. Same with every faith.
> Taqiyya, the concept, could also be translated to 'US politics 101'.


I disagree..  IF I were a Muslim, and parts of my religion were beheading people, and the vast majority wasn't speaking out about it... I'd adopt a new religion.. or leave organized religion altogether.

Just like if I were Catholic and my church hid child abuse and pedophilia.. knowingly and purposefully... no more Catholic for me.


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## Larry Gude

itsbob said:


> I disagree..  IF I were a Muslim, and parts of my religion were beheading people, and the vast majority wasn't speaking out about it... I'd adopt a new religion.. or leave organized religion altogether.
> 
> Just like if I were Catholic and my church hid child abuse and pedophilia.. knowingly and purposefully... no more Catholic for me.



How is beheading any different than the electric chair or lethal injection?  Most of the people on here, the forums, wish executions were in the town square and daily. 


The VAST majority of Muslim executions, beheadings, are for things we at least appreciate on some level if not exactly fully support. 

The ISIS variety are miniscule compared to the killing Iran and Saudi and other Muslim nations do for legal purposes. 

You, as an American are in the happy position of being in a nation that takes it's religion a WHOLE lot less...religiously. It's easy to change teams or just quit.


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## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> You are either a Muslim, hell bent on killing everyone who isn't Muslim, or you aren't.
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.



Yes Islam is intolerant. But, your attitude illustrates the point that all religions are intolerant.


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## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> Yes Islam is intolerant. But, your attitude illustrates the point that all religions are intolerant.



There are different levels of intolerance, yes?


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## mAlice

ProximaCentauri said:


> Yes Islam is intolerant. But, your attitude illustrates the point that all religions are intolerant.



My intolerance doesn't include lopping off the heads of those who disagree with me.


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## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> My intolerance doesn't include lopping off the heads of those who disagree with me.



And thank goodness for that. But, you contribute to intolerant views against Muslims in America with your OP and rhetoric. There are many tenets of Christianity that are not that savory either. And, the majority of Muslims do not adopt radicalism or radical views, especially American Muslims. Many are just as peaceful, if not more so, than Christians.


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## mAlice

ProximaCentauri said:


> And thank goodness for that. But, you contribute to intolerant views against Muslims in America with your OP and rhetoric. There are many tenets of Christianity that are not that savory either. And, the majority of Muslims do not adopt radicalism or radical views, especially American Muslims. Many are just as peaceful, if not more so, than Christians.


It's not my rhetoric.  It's theirs.  Read it yourself.


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## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> There are different levels of intolerance, yes?



Agree. The problem with all religions is that they seed a culture of intolerance with respect to other faiths, other cultures, and non-believers. Thankfully, Christianity has greatly moderated much since the middle ages. Otherwise, Christianity could take 1st prize for the most intolerant religion.


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## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> It's not my rhetoric.  It's theirs.  Read it yourself.



You wrote: "This is why I don't believe the Muslims who say they are not part of the extremists." 

How is this not intolerant rhetoric?


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## mAlice

ProximaCentauri said:


> You wrote: "This is why I don't believe the Muslims who say they are not part of the extremists."
> 
> How is this not intolerant rhetoric?



I didn't say I wasn't intolerant.  I own that.  I said it's not my rhetoric.  And since you're trying to pick a fight, is english your first language?


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## punjabigyrl

mAlice said:


> Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah
> 
> This is why I don't believe the Muslims who say they are not part of the extremists.
> 
> You are either a Muslim, hell bent on killing everyone who isn't Muslim, or you aren't.
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
> 
> http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm



I hope you realize that Taqqiya is a concept ONLY follwed by the shia sect  and NOT a concept that is followed by all the different sects of islam


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## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> I didn't say I wasn't intolerant.  I own that.  I said it's not my rhetoric.  And since you're trying to pick a fight, is english your first language?



Picking a fight? No but do you really expect to be treated with kid gloves when your OP is as one-sided and puerile as this one? 

You cite a decidedly anti-Islamic website and then add your vitriolic remarks. Not the best way to begin a discussion that is rational and balanced.

"is English your first language" gave me a chuckle. Maybe not your intent?


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## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> Agree. The problem with all religions is that they seed a culture of intolerance with respect to other faiths, other cultures, and non-believers. Thankfully, Christianity has greatly moderated much since the middle ages. Otherwise, Christianity could take 1st prize for the most intolerant religion.



Ok but, that is only out of necessity. ANY group, including atheists, stake out turf. 

If you look at religion for what I think it simply is, an organizing, governing philosophy, it ALL makes sense. All of them. AlGorism, Fed Gummint-ism. ALL of them.


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## Gilligan

ProximaCentauri said:


> You cite a decidedly anti-Islamic website ...



Specifically..very specifically..what on that website is factually incorrect?


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## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> Ok but, that is only out of necessity. ANY group, including atheists, stake out turf.
> 
> If you look at religion for what I think it simply is, an organizing, governing philosophy, it ALL makes sense. All of them. AlGorism, Fed Gummint-ism. ALL of them.



Yup, but with a caveat for the atheistic group...they have the luxury of choice when it comes to gleaning wisdom from any of the religions or philosophies. If you're a theist you don't get to enjoy this philosophical diversity of thought. And yes, it appears religion and politics share the same goal...controlling other people's lives.


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## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> Yup, but with a caveat for the atheistic group...they have the luxury of choice when it comes to gleaning wisdom from any of the religions or philosophies. If you're a theist you don't get to enjoy this philosophical diversity of thought. And yes, it appears religion and politics share the same goal...controlling other people's lives.



I don't look at it as 'control'. It's 'genesis' if you will, was survival and then prosperity and then protecting same.


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## GURPS

Larry Gude said:


> That's not fair. The VAST majority of people are just folks.


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## GURPS

itsbob said:


> ... I'd adopt a new religion.. or leave organized religion altogether.





Muslims are raised, leaving the faith is about the worse thing that can be done


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## GURPS

Larry Gude said:


> How is beheading any different than the electric chair or lethal injection ?




how about lining up victims and shooting them in the head one after another, letter the bodies fall in the river .....


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...orists-slaughter-hundreds-of-shiites-in-iraq/


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## mamatutu

GURPS said:


> Muslims are raised, leaving the faith is about the worse thing that can be done



You mean extremist Muslims.  That is not fair to all of the Muslim faith.  Those that are raised on hate and low self esteem because they do not know how to better themselves.  How else do you explain that followers will volunteer to be a bomb.  This is why I think they will use these 'martyrs' to willingly become infected with ebola and cross our borders. Biological warfare at its finest.   As always, just my opinion.

Edit:  Americans did the same to Americans; Native Americans early on, and brothers during the Civil War.  We can't forget where we came from and the strife, but we can't be hypocrites at the same time.  Is there a difference in the barbarianism of it all?  Yes, we are the most powerful and benevolent country in the world.  How do we explain that hypocrisy?  I see why we are hated.  Obama doesn't help matters, because he is on the other side, and wants to see our demise.  Won't hurt his butt none, and he knows it.  I could deal with this a lot better if I knew Obama's portrait would not be next to George's in the WH.  Maybe it is time for another fire in the WH; as in the cleansing of it all.


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## mAlice

GURPS said:


>



Thank you.


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## mAlice

When our boys go to war, we pray for their success, for safekeeping, and for them to return home in one piece. Just because we're not holding the gun ourselves, doesn't mean we don't stand behind them.  If the war came to us, we would pick up the gun and use it. If anyone thinks the Muslims are any different, you're going to have a rude awakening, and it may be literally from your own bed.

This is not a war between us and them. This is a war between good and evil. Any we'll read Christian, or any well theologian, should be able to determine this from the scriptures. I could be wrong, but I think there is a very good chance that the caliph will be the antichrist.


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## mamatutu

mAlice said:


> When our boys go to war, we pray for their success, for safekeeping, and for them to return home in one piece. Just because we're not holding the gun ourselves, doesn't mean we don't stand behind them.  If the war came to us, we would pick up the gun and use it. If anyone thinks the Muslims are any different, you're going to have a rude awakening, and it may be literally from your own bed.
> 
> This is not a war between us and them. This is a war between good and evil. Any we'll read Christian, or any well theologian, should be able to determine this from the scriptures. I could be wrong, but I think there is a very good chance that the caliph will be the antichrist.



I have always thought Obama was the antichrist. I know, that is extremist, but that is what I think. Look what has happened since he took office. If I had said this earlier on, I would have been bashed to death, more than I have been already!


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## Amused_despair

mamatutu said:


> I have always thought Obama was the antichrist. I know, that is extremist, but that is what I think. Look what has happened since he took office. If I had said this earlier on, I would have been bashed to death, more than I have been already!



I was worried that Ariel Sharon would turn out to be the Antichrist (headwound=stroke and all) I was relieved when he died.


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## mamatutu

Amused_despair said:


> I was worried that Ariel Sharon would turn out to be the Antichrist (headwound=stroke and all) I was relieved when he died.



I don't pretend to be the smartest plant in the pot, but I do have my moments.  I don't understand your post.  Is it serious, or humorous.  I get it both ways, but I just want to know how you meant it.  Thanks!


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## Amused_despair

The Antichrist is supposed to suffer a head wound that should have been fatal but he recovers.


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## migtig

mAlice said:


> When our boys go to war, we pray for their success, for safekeeping, and for them to return home in one piece. Just because we're not holding the gun ourselves, doesn't mean we don't stand behind them.  If the war came to us, we would pick up the gun and use it. If anyone thinks the Muslims are any different, you're going to have a rude awakening, and it may be literally from your own bed.
> 
> This is not a war between us and them. This is a war between good and evil. Any we'll read Christian, or any well theologian, should be able to determine this from the scriptures. I could be wrong, but I think there is a very good chance that the caliph will be the antichrist.



For whatever it matters, I concur with your line of reasoning Malice.  I see these things as well, and I'm not hating or being whatever, I just see what logically exists right here and right now.  When the Bible, Torah and Koran "stories" are applied and put into context, you can see that everything that is happening right this moment has been predicted, foretold, planned.   :shrug:  

As an aside, you know, I always thought, you can't believe something without proof.  Then I discovered there's plenty of proof, you just have to want to see it. 

Those of you arguing and calling malice intolerent just haven't looked at all the facts logically.  She's not being intolerant, she's stating a logical fact based on empirical evidence.  

If I see a bunch of Muslims scattering flowers and laying down in front of tanks and locking arms in front of a wall of heavily armed "extremist" fighters, then I'll be the first to say the data has changed.


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## mamatutu

Amused_despair said:


> The Antichrist is supposed to suffer a head wound that should have been fatal but he recovers.



Ok.  I think there have been several opportunities since then, but oh well.


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## punjabigyrl

Gilligan said:


> Specifically..very specifically..what on that website is factually incorrect?



This article talks about Taqqiya but it does NOT stress that this is a concept only followed by the Shia sect ONLY.  She has lumped the concept to every muslims on earth.


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## hotcoffee

If instructions had been followed we wouldn't be having this discussion.  

I'm referring to Deuteronomy 20

Deuteronomy 20:17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.


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## mAlice

hotcoffee said:


> If instructions had been followed we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> I'm referring to Deuteronomy 20
> 
> Deuteronomy 20:17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.



I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that these are battles of Biblical proportion, literally. It has been prophesied in the Bible. Many of the prophecies have come to pass. There are only 3 prophecies left to be fulfilled. 

1) Rebuilding of The Temple, restoration of Temple worship and animal sacrifices.
2) the rise of Gog, Land of Magog.
3) Mark of the beast, used by the anti Christ. This one may be occurring now, if the beast is to be the caliph. Muslims are already marking themselves by wearing headbands that praise allah, and in some clips I've seen what looks like tattoos of the same.

Luke 21:28
Luke 21:32


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## Merlin99

ProximaCentauri said:


> Yup, but with a caveat for the atheistic group...they have the luxury of choice when it comes to gleaning wisdom from any of the religions or philosophies. If you're a theist you don't get to enjoy this philosophical diversity of thought. And yes, it appears religion and politics share the same goal...controlling other people's lives.



What wisdom does an atheist glean from religions?


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## hotcoffee

mAlice said:


> I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that these are battles of Biblical proportion, literally. It has been prophesied in the Bible. Many of the prophecies have come to pass. There are only 3 prophecies left to be fulfilled.
> 
> 1) Rebuilding of The Temple, restoration of Temple worship and animal sacrifices.
> 2) the rise of Gog, Land of Magog.
> 3) Mark of the beast, used by the anti Christ. This one may be occurring now, if the beast is to be the caliph. Muslims are already marking themselves by wearing headbands that praise allah, and in some clips I've seen what looks like tattoos of the same.
> 
> Luke 21:28
> Luke 21:32



Gog and Magog.... hasn't that already started with Russia expanding it's borders?  Hasn't China been messing with Japan, retaking their land?  Geographically it makes sense.  Fiscally it makes sense as well.  

I don't buy the mark being a tattoo.  It'll be uniform and required.  A tattoo is not required.

The point I was making was that originally.... in God's plan..... the chosen people were supposed to go out and kill everyone else on the planet.  That way everyone would be of one people.  No other gods to contend with.  Had the chosen people listened.... then we would all be living in tranquility longer.... but that's not the path humans took.

It all goes back to the original sin.... not obeying God.


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## Larry Gude

punjabigyrl said:


> This article talks about Taqqiya but it does NOT stress that this is a concept only followed by the Shia sect ONLY.  She has lumped the concept to every muslims on earth.



Like the Shia's we hitched our wagon to in Iraq?


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## ProximaCentauri

Merlin99 said:


> What wisdom does an atheist glean from religions?



Any that is useful...but taken, of course, in the context that all religions are products of man.


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## mAlice

hotcoffee said:


> Gog and Magog.... hasn't that already started with Russia expanding it's borders?  Hasn't China been messing with Japan, retaking their land?  Geographically it makes sense.  Fiscally it makes sense as well.
> 
> I don't buy the mark being a tattoo.  It'll be uniform and required.  A tattoo is not required.
> 
> The point I was making was that originally.... in God's plan..... the chosen people were supposed to go out and kill everyone else on the planet.  That way everyone would be of one people.  No other gods to contend with.  Had the chosen people listened.... then we would all be living in tranquility longer.... but that's not the path humans took.
> 
> It all goes back to the original sin.... not obeying God.


That's the way I understand it.  As for the mark, it's hard to say what it might be, but iSIS is wearing the headbands with writing that praises Allah.

Mankind has been disobeying God since his creation, but I do get your point.


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## Merlin99

ProximaCentauri said:


> Any that is useful...but taken, of course, in the context that all religions are products of man.


Specifically?


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## punjabigyrl

Larry Gude said:


> Like the Shia's we hitched our wagon to in Iraq?



I was not there with you so I will take your word for it.


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## Larry Gude

punjabigyrl said:


> I was not there with you so I will take your word for it.



I wasn't there either but, the results don't much seem to be what the Bush team was expecting. So, based on your comments, which I understand to be, basically, accurate, that Shia's are adherents to the principle and Sunni's are not and we backed Shia's until we'd created a big enough civil war, it seems reasonable to discern that the Shia's played us for the fools we are.


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## Gilligan

punjabigyrl said:


> This article talks about Taqqiya but it does NOT stress that this is a concept only followed by the Shia sect ONLY.  She has lumped the concept to every muslims on earth.



You try make it sound like the Shia are a tiny minority of Muslims.


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## Radiant1

Gilligan said:


> You try make it sound like the Shia are a tiny minority of Muslims.



I didn't take her statement that way but never the less, according to a BBC article dated December 2013, Shia are only 10% of the Muslim population. Other sources cite anywhere from 7.5% to 30%. Either way, to lump them all together would be like saying Catholics believe you have to be born again or Protestants honor the Virgin Mary, which would be false. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25434060


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## baydoll

The Religion of Peace:

http://thereligionofpeace.com/


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## Gilligan

Radiant1 said:


> I didn't take her statement that way but never the less, according to a BBC article dated December 2013, Shia are only 10% of the Muslim population. Other sources cite anywhere from 7.5% to 30%. Either way, to lump them all together would be like saying Catholics believe you have to be born again or Protestants honor the Virgin Mary, which would be false.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25434060



I read several sources that put the Shia at nearly 40% of the middle eastern population (% of total population) and around 15% of the world Muslim population.  And taken in the context of her previous posts, it was quite obvious she wanted the marginalize the mere existence of Shia Muslims...and dismiss them out of hand. That's the standard spin. It does not work.


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## mAlice

baydoll said:


> The Religion of Peace:
> 
> http://thereligionofpeace.com/



a link on that page took me to this article, where I found an interesting comment.



> Many progressive leaders in the West do not understand the threat posed by Islam because they cannot get their collective heads around the idea that religion is still a force in the world. Unlike secular progressives, ISIS troops do believe in a god and are willing to die for that god.



Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2014...litary_tactics_of_muhammad.html#ixzz3Gnk0MpTd
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook


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## PJay

http://ricochet.com/archives/why-liberals-love-islam/

Interesting read.


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## GURPS

Homesick said:


> Franco
> 
> Your post is extremely informative and interesting. However, I think the reasons for this phenomenon are mundane. Leftists hate and fear their immediate threat, American conservatives, devout Christians and Republicans. In the enemy of my enemy is my friend thinking, Republicans *hate* Muslims, Islamists hate Jews (many lefties secretly hate Jews too especially right wing Israeli types) and Christians so there is an alliance right there.
> 
> Radical Muslims are victims and right-wing Americans who made them that way. Sure they don’t like the radical Muslims but it’s not their fault (more condescending racism) it was colonials and Bush who made them hate us.
> 
> Furthermore all muslims aren’t bad. The ones I know (narcissistic solipsism) are nice and they are discriminated against and misunderstood by ignorant right-wing bigots.
> 
> So you see, it is at once complicated and simple. The simple-minded leftist thinks the issue is complicated and they think others are being simplistic and ignorant.
> 
> Felling superior and nuanced is very enjoyable for them.






that follow on was better .....


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## Radiant1

Gilligan said:


> I read several sources that put the Shia at nearly 40% of the middle eastern population (% of total population) and around 15% of the world Muslim population.  And taken in the context of her previous posts, it was quite obvious she wanted the marginalize the mere existence of Shia Muslims...and dismiss them out of hand. That's the standard spin. It does not work.



That would still leave 60% of the population that DOES NOT practice or believe in taqqiya; therefore, the article is incorrect by lumping all Muslims with the act. That's not to say that taqqiya isn't an issue when it comes to Middle East matters, but punjabigyrl was correct to make the observation.


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## Larry Gude

Radiant1 said:


> That would still leave 60% of the population that DOES NOT practice or believe in taqqiya; therefore, the article is incorrect by lumping all Muslims with the act. That's not to say that taqqiya isn't an issue when it comes to Middle East matters, but punjabigyrl was correct to make the observation.



But, again, it is critical to OUR national interests and problems because we backed the Shia's in Iraq (Chalabi et al) and it could go a ways towards understanding why they didn't much do what we wanted and expected; they never were because they simply used us. I'm not saying they were wrong to; we do it to people's all the time. I'm pointing it out to to illustrate that part of the reason it seems like we didn't know what we were getting into is because...we didn't.


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## Radiant1

Larry Gude said:


> But, again, it is critical to OUR national interests and problems because we backed the Shia's in Iraq (Chalabi et al) and it could go a ways towards understanding why they didn't much do what we wanted and expected; they never were because they simply used us. I'm not saying they were wrong to; we do it to people's all the time. I'm pointing it out to to illustrate that part of the reason it seems like we didn't know what we were getting into is because...we didn't.



I think you and Gilligan are missing the very simple point. Punjabigyrl was not making a statement about Middle East issues, rather she was making an observation that the article is misleading in one aspect and why. Her point is not that hard to understand...unless you don't want to.


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## Larry Gude

Radiant1 said:


> I think you and Gilligan are missing the very simple point. Punjabigyrl was not making a statement about Middle East issues, rather she was making an observation that the article is misleading in one aspect and why. Her point is not that hard to understand...unless you don't want to.



Oh yeah? Well. I think you're missing the point.  

Islam is an enormous issue for the US and our dealings in Iraq are a HUGE part of that. That Iraq is largely Shia, as is neighboring Iran, is a HUGE part of this HUGE issue. Punjabi's point is akin to saying only 12% of the US population is black when we're talking about inner city drug and crime problems and what to do about them. Yeah, they're only 12% of the population but, they're a HUGE component if we're talking about the inner cities. 

And, again, with Islam, we're talking about Iraq first and foremost and over 60% of Iraqi's, going on 100% at this rate, are Shia's and if Shia's are very comfortable with telling you (us) whatever they think we want to hear in order to get what they want, control of the country and virtually elimination of Sunni's in governing the nation, then, it's a pretty big deal. 

Further, we also don't understand Sunnis' (bin Laden, Al queda, Taliban, Saudi Arabia, ISIS). So, we keep on losing  and wondering what happened just like anyone else who can't be bothered to learn what they're dealing with before waving the flags and calling for patriotism against "THEM".


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## mAlice

I'm sure these were the non-violent Muslims that convinced these teenagers to leave their families and fly to Syria.



> Authorities have not said how they think the girls became interested in helping the Islamic State militants. In Conley's case, she told agents she wanted to marry a suitor she met online who said he was a Tunisian man fighting with the Islamic State group in Syria.



Are you watching what you're children are doing on the internet?

http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-us-girls-may-tried-join-jihadis-203307941.html


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## Gilligan

Radiant1 said:


> I think you and Gilligan are missing the very simple point..




Nope.

What Larry said.


You are confusing someone's attempt to oversimplify, marginalize or dismiss a point, with our having missed it.  IMHO.


If the Sunnis do not, in fact, practice Taqiyya, then I feel a whole lot better about them now...I'm sure Al Qaeda is just misunderstood.   Err.....


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## Radiant1

Larry Gude said:


>





Gilligan said:


>



None of that changes the fact that the article was misleading about taqqiya and who practices it. 

Carry on...


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## Gilligan

Radiant1 said:


> None of that changes the fact that the article was misleading about taqqiya and who practices it.
> 
> Carry on...




Look!..squirrel!


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## mAlice

Radiant1 said:


> None of that changes the fact that the article was misleading about taqqiya and who practices it.
> 
> Carry on...



The only article posted in defense of your line of thought was also misleading.  The statement in the article "Accurate figures for the breakdown of the Muslim population into the various strands are not available as almost no censuses or surveys ask Muslims about which they are" pretty much nullifies the figures.


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## Radiant1

mAlice said:


> The only article posted in defense of your line of thought was also misleading.  The statement in the article "Accurate figures for the breakdown of the Muslim population into the various strands are not available as almost no censuses or surveys ask Muslims about which they are" pretty much nullifies the figures.



I'm curious, what exactly do you think my "line of thought" is?


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## mAlice

Radiant1 said:


> I'm curious, what exactly do you think my "line of thought" is?



Based on your posts, it looked like you were in agreement with proxima and bigyrl.  That the majority of Muslims are peaceful.  No?


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## Radiant1

mAlice said:


> Based on your posts, it looked like you were in agreement with proxima and bigyrl.  That the majority of Muslims are peaceful.  No?



No. I am, however, in agreement that the OP article is misleading regarding who practices taqqiya. Nothing more and nothing less. I say what I mean and mean what I say, no need to read into my words.


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## Gilligan

I'm just relieved to know that when a  Sunni jihadist tries to cut my head off, he won't lie to me beforehand.

But that's just me.


----------



## mAlice

Radiant1 said:


> No. I am, however, in agreement that the OP article is misleading regarding who practices taqqiya. Nothing more and nothing less. I say what I mean and mean what I say, no need to read into my words.



What part of the article was it that you thought was misleading?


----------



## Gilligan

Radiant1 said:


> Nothing more and nothing less. I say what I mean and mean what I say,



Did you stomp your foot whilst typing that?  Admit it..you did, didn't you?


----------



## mAlice

Gilligan said:


> Did you stomp your foot whilst typing that?  Admit it..you did, didn't you?



:snort:


----------



## Radiant1

mAlice said:


> What part of the article was it that you thought was misleading?



The entire thing only because it does not once mention that taqqiya is a practice of Shia muslims and not Sunni muslims. As I said (emphasis added):



Radiant1 said:


> I didn't take her statement that way but never the less, according to a BBC article dated December 2013, Shia are only 10% of the Muslim population. Other sources cite anywhere from 7.5% to 30%. *Either way, to lump them all together would be like saying Catholics believe you have to be born again or Protestants honor the Virgin Mary, which would be false*.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25434060



Would you take as truth an article that states all former Atheists who convert to Christianity have the IQ of a goat? I'm guessing you wouldn't, but I could be wrong. 

Like I said, the point wasn't hard to understand...unless you don't want to.


----------



## mAlice

Radiant1 said:


> The entire thing only because it does not once mention that taqqiya is a practice of Shia muslims and not Sunni muslims. As I said (emphasis added):



Okay.


----------



## b23hqb

40% of 1.1 billion leaves about 440,000,000 taqqiyaites, a formidable number in itself. Let the other 600 million non-shia take care of the problem? It won't happen, because without doubt a large chunk of the 600 million are either afraid to confront them, tacitly under the table agree with taqqiya but will not admit it, or both.


----------



## mAlice

b23hqb said:


> 40% of 1.1 billion leaves about 440,000,000 taqqiyaites, a formidable number in itself. Let the other 600 million non-shia take care of the problem? It won't happen, because without doubt a large chunk of the 600 million are either afraid to confront them, tacitly under the table agree with taqqiya but will not admit it, or both.



This.


----------



## Gilligan

What if Sunni's are lying about being liars?


How would anyone know?

This gets complicated.


----------



## mAlice

Gilligan said:


> This gets complicated.



It's supposed to be


----------



## b23hqb

mAlice said:


> This.



Let me rephrase that - I got my numbers wrong. About 11% of Muslims are Shia, or about 112,000,000, that should follow taqqiya, leaving about 1,000,000,000 of the other muslim sects that say they don't agree with taqqiya. If this about 9 - 1 ratio is not settled by the Sunnis, then they are guilty and hypocritical for not eliminating the threat that is allegedly insulting their "religion". As I said before, there is no doubt that a large amount of those Sunni's either quietly agree with it, or are just too afraid to fight it, and if taqqiya prevails, they will submit to it.


----------



## baydoll

mAlice said:


> This.



Exactly.


----------



## baydoll

> The relatively few number of Muslims who dare to convert to Christianity do that in extreme secrecy. That is because the penalty for leaving Islam is death in all schools of Sharia, both Sunni and Shiite. Those who wrote Sharia centuries ago knew that keeping Muslims in total submission would be very difficult to maintain, and thus they established barbaric laws condemning Muslims to death for exercising their basic human rights to choose their religion. Sharia never entrusted its enforcement only to the formal legal system. Islam promises heavenly rewards to individual Muslims who take the law into their own hands. Sharia states that the killers of apostates and adulterers are not to be punished as murderers. That is why, for Islam to achieve 100% compliance to Sharia enforcement, Muslim individuals were told they must be Allah’s enforces of Sharia on earth if the government fails to do so. That is the reason honor killing and killing of apostates happen in the West.
> 
> The end result is a chaotic society where everything happens behind closed doors but at a very heavy price to Muslim society and interpersonal relationships. Fear and distrust of others exist in all Muslim society. Muslims are not just distrustful of the West, but they are distrustful of one another. People are often more afraid of their neighbors and family members than the police. Thus we see husbands or father pressured to apply Sharia by killing an adulterous wife or daughter, or a perfect stranger participate in killing of an apostate in the public square. Very few get arrested or punished for such crimes across the Muslim world. The ingenious Sharia uses vigilante street justice to bring about Islamic submission. That is why civil unrest, assassinations, coups, and honor crimes go where ever Islam goes. The power of Islam comes from turning Muslim against Muslim with a reward in heaven.
> 
> Islamic tyranny is encapsulated in a law (Sharia) where many Muslims escaped from when they moved to America. But some Muslims claim it to be their religious right in America. Many American citizens who left Islam are living in constant fear from Islamist individuals and groups right here, in the land of the free and home of the brave. I am one of them.



From a former Muslim : http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/


----------



## Midnightrider

i love how christians cant even agree among themselves what their holy book means, but they read a couple of slanted articles and they are an expert on all things muslim :sad:


----------



## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> i love how christians cant even agree among themselves what their holy book means, but they read a couple of slanted articles and they are an expert on all things muslim :sad:



Perhaps you would link to the post where anyone claimed to be an expert? Of course you will.


----------



## Midnightrider

post #1 in this thread.
she leaves no room for interpretaion.
but you aren't real good with words so i am not surprised you missed it.


----------



## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> post #1 in this thread.
> she leaves no room for interpretaion.
> but you aren't real good with words so i am not surprised you missed it.



Not one hint of the OP claiming to be an expert on all things muslim.  Care to play again?

PS. Your lame "dismissive shtick" never worked before; why do you think it might now?


----------



## Monello

Larry Gude said:


> Most of the people on here, the forums, wish executions were in the town square and daily.





Well maybe not daily, only as often as necessary.


----------



## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> What if Sunni's are lying about being liars?
> 
> 
> How would anyone know?
> 
> This gets complicated.



See, this is where another HUGE distinction comes in; Shia's don't much do suicide bombings. That's a Sunni thing, mostly. 

And NONE of this is complicated. It's only through our abject refusal to even have a cursory understanding of these people that it gets complicated.


----------



## Larry Gude

Radiant1 said:


> No. I am, however, in agreement that the OP article is misleading regarding who practices taqqiya. Nothing more and nothing less. I say what I mean and mean what I say, no need to read into my words.



And I never referenced the article. I expressly laid out the context it matters, or, should matter, to we, the people; Iraq. Because we backed Shia's. And they haven't much done what we'd hoped for.


----------



## punjabigyrl

Radiant1 said:


> I think you and Gilligan are missing the very simple point. Punjabigyrl was not making a statement about Middle East issues, rather she was making an observation that the article is misleading in one aspect and why. Her point is not that hard to understand...unless you don't want to.



That is exactly what I saying.


----------



## punjabigyrl

b23hqb said:


> Let me rephrase that - I got my numbers wrong. About 11% of Muslims are Shia, or about 112,000,000, that should follow taqqiya, leaving about 1,000,000,000 of the other muslim sects that say they don't agree with taqqiya. If this about 9 - 1 ratio is not settled by the Sunnis, then they are guilty and hypocritical for not eliminating the threat that is allegedly insulting their "religion". As I said before, there is no doubt that a large amount of those Sunni's either quietly agree with it, or are just too afraid to fight it, and if taqqiya prevails, they will submit to it.




Here is a pew research on Mapping the Muslim population.
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/10/07/mapping-the-global-muslim-population/


----------



## PJay

GURPS said:


> that follow on was better .....



I apologize for not understanding what you mean....please explain


----------



## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> And I never referenced the article. I expressly laid out the context it matters, or, should matter, to we, the people; Iraq. Because we backed Shia's. And they haven't much done what we'd hoped for.



That.  I saw a response that I interpreted as "No..that's just those few guys over there in the corner...they might be liars but the rest of us aren't". Diversion. As Larry pointed out, the US has invested heavily in blood and treasure supporting "those few guys over there in the corner".  But let's pretend they don't exist, right?  Sure are one heck of a lot Shia Muslims in the geographic area we are most heavily involved in. In fact..that is where most of them are.



> Iran 	66 – 70 million 	90 – 95% 	37 – 40%
> Pakistan 	17 – 26 million 	10 – 15 	10 – 15
> India 	16 – 24 million 	10 – 15 	9 – 14
> Iraq 	19 -22 million 	65 – 70 	11 – 12
> Turkey 	7 – 11 million 	10 – 15 	4 – 6
> Yemen 	8 – 10 million 	35 – 40 	~5
> Azerbaijan 	5 – 7 million 	65 – 75 	3 – 4
> Afghanistan 	3 – 4 million 	10 – 15 	~2
> Syria 	3 – 4 million 	15 – 20 	~2
> Saudi Arabia 	2 – 4 million


----------



## Gilligan

Such a fun bunch of kidders.


http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iranian-gangs-step-up-acid-attacks-against-immodest-women/


----------



## GURPS

Homesick said:


> I apologize for not understanding what you mean....please explain





 you did nothing wrong Homesick ...

... I quoted out a commenter, from the article you posted ... I thought he / she made a better point


----------



## aps45819

The Muslims that aren't actively trying to kill you will do nothing to interfere with the ones that do want to kill you


----------



## baydoll

Interesting article. :

Michigan: Court Rules Against Christians in Dearborn Arab Festival Case (Sept. 2, 2014)

In a stunning decision, a federal appeals court has sided against Christians and for violent Muslims in a case involving rights violations at the Dearborn Arab Festival in 2012. Dearborn, Michigan has the largest Muslim population of any city in the United States, and last year when a satire site made mention of the fact that the city was under sharia law, conservatives took it as truth. The mainstream media mocked, but the truth is, Dearborn, Michigan is under sharia law. This case is proof.

It might not be “official” but it is there. Furthermore, the war on Christianity just took a decidedly deadly turn in a case that should never have ruled in the favor of a ravenous Muslim mob. The court ruled against Christians attacked by violent Muslims at the Dearborn Arab Festival in 2012, as this video so clearly shows.

Go here ----- > http://www.fortruthssake.com/2014/0...st-christians-in-dearborn-arab-festival-case/

The video does not show that the evangelists’ speech was intended to incite the crowd. Clearly, in the video the evangelists were standing in the crowd being swarmed by a vicious Muslim mob, throwing rocks and water bottles. This is sheer insanity. The Christian plaintiffs had free speech protection, until the court ruled against them!

Walking through the crowd with banners, they had a right to be there. They were not inciting ANYONE to violence. But just as what happened with the nixing of the Jesus Day Parade in Toronto, the tide is turning against Christians and in favor of Muslims. How did this happen? Multiculturalism, and allowing Muslims to have special rights and privileges, as Dr. Fred wrote in his article, “Time to Stand Against Islam is NOW!” By allowing these people to come in openly and without reserve, they have conquered. Thus, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy of ultimate defeat for Christians in America and around the world.

http://www.fortruthssake.com/2014/0...st-christians-in-dearborn-arab-festival-case/


----------



## b23hqb

aps45819 said:


> The Muslims that aren't actively trying to kill you will do nothing to interfere with the ones that do want to kill you



My take as well all along, and have stated such a few times in this thread. By not fighting taqqiya themselves, they are guilty as well.


----------



## mAlice

b23hqb said:


> My take as well all along, and have stated such a few times in this thread. By not fighting taqqiya themselves, they are guilty as well.



Agree.


----------



## mamatutu

baydoll said:


> Interesting article. :
> 
> Michigan: Court Rules Against Christians in Dearborn Arab Festival Case (Sept. 2, 2014)
> 
> In a stunning decision, a federal appeals court has sided against Christians and for violent Muslims in a case involving rights violations at the Dearborn Arab Festival in 2012. Dearborn, Michigan has the largest Muslim population of any city in the United States, and last year when a satire site made mention of the fact that the city was under sharia law, conservatives took it as truth. The mainstream media mocked, but the truth is, Dearborn, Michigan is under sharia law. This case is proof.
> 
> It might not be “official” but it is there. Furthermore, the war on Christianity just took a decidedly deadly turn in a case that should never have ruled in the favor of a ravenous Muslim mob. The court ruled against Christians attacked by violent Muslims at the Dearborn Arab Festival in 2012, as this video so clearly shows.
> 
> Go here ----- > http://www.fortruthssake.com/2014/0...st-christians-in-dearborn-arab-festival-case/
> 
> The video does not show that the evangelists’ speech was intended to incite the crowd. Clearly, in the video the evangelists were standing in the crowd being swarmed by a vicious Muslim mob, throwing rocks and water bottles. This is sheer insanity. The Christian plaintiffs had free speech protection, until the court ruled against them!
> 
> Walking through the crowd with banners, they had a right to be there. They were not inciting ANYONE to violence. But just as what happened with the nixing of the Jesus Day Parade in Toronto, the tide is turning against Christians and in favor of Muslims. How did this happen? Multiculturalism, and allowing Muslims to have special rights and privileges, as Dr. Fred wrote in his article, “Time to Stand Against Islam is NOW!” By allowing these people to come in openly and without reserve, they have conquered. Thus, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy of ultimate defeat for Christians in America and around the world.
> 
> http://www.fortruthssake.com/2014/0...st-christians-in-dearborn-arab-festival-case/



Wow.  Very frightening, indeed.


----------



## ProximaCentauri

baydoll said:


> Interesting article. :
> 
> Michigan: Court Rules Against Christians in Dearborn Arab Festival Case (Sept. 2, 2014)
> 
> In a stunning decision, a federal appeals court has sided against Christians and for violent Muslims in a case involving rights violations at the Dearborn Arab Festival in 2012. Dearborn, Michigan has the largest Muslim population of any city in the United States, and last year when a satire site made mention of the fact that the city was under sharia law, conservatives took it as truth. The mainstream media mocked, but the truth is, Dearborn, Michigan is under sharia law. This case is proof.
> 
> It might not be “official” but it is there. Furthermore, the war on Christianity just took a decidedly deadly turn in a case that should never have ruled in the favor of a ravenous Muslim mob. The court ruled against Christians attacked by violent Muslims at the Dearborn Arab Festival in 2012, as this video so clearly shows.
> 
> Go here ----- > http://www.fortruthssake.com/2014/0...st-christians-in-dearborn-arab-festival-case/
> 
> The video does not show that the evangelists’ speech was intended to incite the crowd. Clearly, in the video the evangelists were standing in the crowd being swarmed by a vicious Muslim mob, throwing rocks and water bottles. This is sheer insanity. The Christian plaintiffs had free speech protection, until the court ruled against them!
> 
> Walking through the crowd with banners, they had a right to be there. They were not inciting ANYONE to violence. But just as what happened with the nixing of the Jesus Day Parade in Toronto, the tide is turning against Christians and in favor of Muslims. How did this happen? Multiculturalism, and allowing Muslims to have special rights and privileges, as Dr. Fred wrote in his article, “Time to Stand Against Islam is NOW!” By allowing these people to come in openly and without reserve, they have conquered. Thus, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy of ultimate defeat for Christians in America and around the world.
> 
> http://www.fortruthssake.com/2014/0...st-christians-in-dearborn-arab-festival-case/



The "Christian" group's motivation and plan was to incite the Muslim's to violence, film it, and post it on the web to support an anti-
Muslim agenda. They were successful. 

This is the second time I've seen this posted to SOMD. The underlying goal is clear. To influence Americans, especially conservative Christians, who are looking to find validation of their growing hatred of Muslims.


----------



## mAlice

ProximaCentauri said:


> The "Christian" group's motivation and plan was to incite the Muslim's to violence, film it, and post it on the web to support an anti-
> Muslim agenda. They were successful.
> 
> This is the second time I've seen this posted to SOMD. The underlying goal is clear. To influence Americans, especially conservative Christians, who are looking to find validation of their growing hatred of Muslims.



The mere presence of Christians, or anyone who does not worship Allah, is enough to incite violence from Muslims.


----------



## b23hqb

mAlice said:


> The mere presence of Christians, or anyone who does not worship Allah, is enough to incite violence from Muslims.



Physical presence not required. All it takes to incite muslims is for someone to tell them that they overheard somebody say they heard another person say that they did not agree with jihad, or likes bacon, or whatever........


----------



## Gilligan

ProximaCentauri said:


> To influence Americans, especially conservative Christians, who are looking to find validation of their growing hatred of Muslims.



They should just leave it be, IMO.  The Muslims are doing a remarkably good job at alienating the rest of the civilized world without any outside help.


----------



## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> The mere presence of Christians, or anyone who does not worship Allah, is enough to incite violence from Muslims.



Nope, not true in the US, and not even universally true in the middle-east. Broad-brushed statements like this are indicative of a bigoted and intolerant mindset.


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Gilligan said:


> They should just leave it be, IMO.  The Muslims are doing a remarkably good job at alienating the rest of the civilized world without any outside help.


Yup, primarily driven by the extremists, although it's true that a great many in the middle-east are sympathetic to the extremist's cause.


----------



## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> Yup, primarily driven by the extremists, although it's true that a great many in the middle-east are sympathetic to the extremist's cause.



They're not extreme!!!  They are fundamentalists. There are ANY number of videos floating around showing ISIS in controlled areas with the religious police patrolling. The people are happy, sober, productive and don't seem the least bit bothered because this is the faith as they were taught as kids; fundamental. It is telling the people they punish, especially drug users who expect to be put to death. They are VERY calm about it and accepting as it is the LAW they were taught their whole lives. They act like people who strayed and know it and knew the penalty and have simply accepted it. 

There isn't a fundamentalist Christian out there who can't at the very least, respect the world these people wish to live in; devout, consistent, fair as per their faith. No surprises. Immodesty is punished as is corruption, idleness and drug use. 

This is NOT an endorsement. These people are taught and, at core, believe in a religion that is very strict by Western standards of today but, not so very much different than the old Testament Christianity days of not too long ago many in the US say they miss. 

That is what they are fighting for; a fundamentalist, faithful life. It has it's rules and ways but, they are not, not remotely, a bunch of loons just making it up as they go. They are fighting against the corruption of their faith by the modern and Western world.


----------



## Gilligan

ProximaCentauri said:


> Yup, primarily driven by the extremists, although it's true that a great many in the middle-east are sympathetic to the extremist's cause.



Please tell me you aren't that stupid. There are the ones that cut the throats and carry out suicide bombings...and there are the rest that support them and feel bad they don't have the balls. Get a grip.

And because you are obviously geographically challenged, please explain how, for example, the Phillipines became part of the "middle east".


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> They're not extreme!!!  They are fundamentalists. There are ANY number of videos floating around showing ISIS in controlled areas with the religious police patrolling. The people are happy, sober, productive and don't seem the least bit bothered because this is the faith as they were taught as kids; fundamental. It is telling the people they punish, especially drug users who expect to be put to death. They are VERY calm about it and accepting as it is the LAW they were taught their whole lives. They act like people who strayed and know it and knew the penalty and have simply accepted it.
> 
> There isn't a fundamentalist Christian out there who can't at the very least, respect the world these people wish to live in; devout, consistent, fair as per their faith. No surprises. Immodesty is punished as is corruption, idleness and drug use.
> 
> This is NOT an endorsement. These people are taught and, at core, believe in a religion that is very strict by Western standards of today but, not so very much different than the old Testament Christianity days of not too long ago many in the US say they miss.
> 
> That is what they are fighting for; a fundamentalist, faithful life. It has it's rules and ways but, they are not, not remotely, a bunch of loons just making it up as they go. They are fighting against the corruption of their faith by the modern and Western world.



There are some threads of truth in this post but to say their only objective is to return to a "fundamentalist" practice of the Islamic faith is a fallacious oversimplification. It's about establishing totalitarian rule over the Islamic world, a caliphate, and eventually over the entire world. And, it's not only westerners that view them as extremists, the Islamic moderates view them this way as well. The ISIS interpretation of the Islamic faith, is in a word, extreme.


----------



## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> There are some threads of truth in this post but to say their only objective is to return to a "fundamentalist" practice of the Islamic faith is a fallacious oversimplification. It's about establishing totalitarian rule over the Islamic world, a caliphate, and eventually over the entire world. And, it's not only westerners that view them as extremists, the Islamic moderates view them this way as well. The ISIS interpretation of the Islamic faith, is in a word, extreme.



I'm not going to argue expertise but, one of the themes of the Koran is that peace will be had when all are faithful. 

In the world of religion, when 1+1=2, when you are a fundamentalist, devout, and the world starts to argue that 1+1 is sorta 2, maybe a little 3, kind of 1+ ish, and you don't like the way things are going, morality, social disintegration, the corruption they see in the Saudi Royal family, they are simply saying "No. 1+1=2. Says so right here." and the rest of us, because we don't like things plain, are like "Extremists! Radicals! Yeah, it says 1+1=2 but, it doesn't really mean that!"  

If ISIS were conducting themselves outside the faith, doing odd things, then, you would have an argument. Given that they are conducting themselves in a fundamental fashion, my observation is neither untrue nor an oversimplification. It is just that simple.


----------



## Gilligan

ProximaCentauri said:


> The ISIS interpretation of the Islamic faith, is in a word, extreme.



That would be a nice apology...were it not for the observable fact that ISIS is a small minority in a large population of Muslims who believe and behave exactly as they do. Are you being paid to spew the stuff you do?...or are you part of it?


----------



## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> That would be a nice apology...were it not for the observable fact that ISIS is a small minority in a large population of Muslims who believe and behave exactly as they do. Are you being paid to spew the stuff you do?...or are you part of it?



I guess we should define 'extreme'. 

They are literal. Compared to many Muslims, many people of faith, they are 'extremely' serious. 

I guess that's the thing; if you are serious about your faith, you're extreme. Yet, then, there is the whole other direction. If the book says what it says, aren't 'moderates', the people who don't take is seriously, the 'extreme'? They are the ones making stuff up. Arguing against the literal. 

Is an accountant 'extreme' if they do the math correctly? Is a surgeon 'extreme' if he follows all the procedures? Are cops 'extreme' for giving you a ticket for 11 over and not 10? Are the Ebola procedures 'extreme'? I mean, that's the thing. Fundamentalists believe that NOT following the word is what is wrong. Westerboro wasn't extreme 50 years ago. They wouldn't have even been noteworthy. They haven't moved. How'd they GET extreme?


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> I guess we should define 'extreme'.
> 
> They are literal. Compared to many Muslims, many people of faith, they are 'extremely' serious.
> 
> I guess that's the thing; if you are serious about your faith, you're extreme. Yet, then, there is the whole other direction. If the book says what it says, aren't 'moderates', the people who don't take is seriously, the 'extreme'? They are the ones making stuff up. Arguing against the literal.
> 
> Is an accountant 'extreme' if they do the math correctly? Is a surgeon 'extreme' if he follows all the procedures? Are cops 'extreme' for giving you a ticket for 11 over and not 10? Are the Ebola procedures 'extreme'? I mean, that's the thing. Fundamentalists believe that NOT following the word is what is wrong. Westerboro wasn't extreme 50 years ago. They wouldn't have even been noteworthy. They haven't moved. How'd they GET extreme?



Good points regarding the definition of 'extreme'. But I don't believe you get to where ISIS is in their worldview, by a simple fundamental practice of Islam. 

ISIS claims to trace the lineage of its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, directly back to the prophet Muhammad to establish his claim to be caliph. And, ISIS has declared that... "The legality of all emirates, groups, states and organizations becomes null by the expansion of the khilafah's authority and arrival of its troops to their areas." 

ISIS wants to establish a ruthless, totalitarian regime. Their rules and their interpretations, and death to anyone who opposes them. This stance by ISIS is considered "extreme" not only by westerners but by Muslims alike.


----------



## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> Good points regarding the definition of 'extreme'. But I don't believe you get to where ISIS is in their worldview, by a simple fundamental practice of Islam.
> 
> ISIS claims to trace the lineage of its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, directly back to the prophet Muhammad to establish his claim to be caliph. And, ISIS has declared that... "The legality of all emirates, groups, states and organizations becomes null by the expansion of the khilafah's authority and arrival of its troops to their areas."
> 
> ISIS wants to establish a ruthless, totalitarian regime. Their rules and their interpretations, and death to anyone who opposes them. This stance by ISIS is considered "extreme" not only by westerners but by Muslims alike.



I totally disagree. Ruthless to achieve the caliphate, sure but, it is true to say Islam is a religion of peace...just so long as everyone believes what 'we' believe. You watch some of those videos of the taken territory and note how calm it is. How readily the moral police are welcomed. Further, what is it when a nation just executes people with robots with no goal, it seems, other than to just kill? Can we claim to be righteous? Having a purpose? A good and noble one? 

Why do you think it has been so easy to just throw an army together like this? Believers, sort of believers, all fall in line together readily from a common understanding of the faith when someone comes along, grabs the sword and says "your life sucks because you are betrayed by our leaders and corrupted by the West! Life would be grand if it was simple again! Fair, uncomplicated, righteous!" And that has a strong appeal to men who don't like the Westernization of their world and young men who have nothing better to do. 

Saudi has long used us to deal with their 'extremists' by simply kicking them out or readily allowing them to go jihad somewhere, anywhere, but here at home. It's their pressure relief valve. It is an outlet for all the discontent within the nation. The 'extremist' goal is to return Saudi to fundamentalist way of life. The goal from the Saudi standpoint is to allow the pressure to bleed off by letting the 'radicals' and 'extremists' go off and fight and be hero's....and get killed by the United States. 

They're not some kooks trying to cook up a new faith. They are fundamentalist holding up the book and saying 'obey! follow!' and a LOT of people are readily falling in and why so many, obviously support them. This is why it goes on and on, like communism, and doesn't collapse, like Naziism. It's not a cult driven by one personality. It was in the beginning but, now, like communism, it is an institution, a faith, and all it needs is the willing to lead. No one man is indispensable. All people understand the rules, motives and reasoning.

Consider all the tests running around the web about basic 'America' things. Stuff about our Constitution, core 'American' stuff. Most of our young people are clueless. There is no common banner to rally around anymore. No god, country, apple pie. Do a test about core Islam and...you get 15,000-30,000 people ready to take up arms, travel, and go fight for the faith. 

Is someone who believes in the bill of rights an extremist?


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> I totally disagree. Ruthless to achieve the caliphate, sure but, it is true to say Islam is a religion of peace...just so long as everyone believes what 'we' believe. You watch some of those videos of the taken territory and note how calm it is. How readily the moral police are welcomed. Further, what is it when a nation just executes people with robots with no goal, it seems, other than to just kill? Can we claim to be righteous? Having a purpose? A good and noble one?
> 
> Why do you think it has been so easy to just throw an army together like this? Believers, sort of believers, all fall in line together readily from a common understanding of the faith when someone comes along, grabs the sword and says "your life sucks because you are betrayed by our leaders and corrupted by the West! Life would be grand if it was simple again! Fair, uncomplicated, righteous!" And that has a strong appeal to men who don't like the Westernization of their world and young men who have nothing better to do.
> 
> Saudi has long used us to deal with their 'extremists' by simply kicking them out or readily allowing them to go jihad somewhere, anywhere, but here at home. It's their pressure relief valve. It is an outlet for all the discontent within the nation. The 'extremist' goal is to return Saudi to fundamentalist way of life. The goal from the Saudi standpoint is to allow the pressure to bleed off by letting the 'radicals' and 'extremists' go off and fight and be hero's....and get killed by the United States.
> 
> They're not some kooks trying to cook up a new faith. They are fundamentalist holding up the book and saying 'obey! follow!' and a LOT of people are readily falling in and why so many, obviously support them. This is why it goes on and on, like communism, and doesn't collapse, like Naziism. It's not a cult driven by one personality. It was in the beginning but, now, like communism, it is an institution, a faith, and all it needs is the willing to lead. No one man is indispensable. All people understand the rules, motives and reasoning.
> 
> Consider all the tests running around the web about basic 'America' things. Stuff about our Constitution, core 'American' stuff. Most of our young people are clueless. There is no common banner to rally around anymore. No god, country, apple pie. Do a test about core Islam and...you get 15,000-30,000 people ready to take up arms, travel, and go fight for the faith.
> 
> Is someone who believes in the bill of rights an extremist?



Neither is Christianity a religion of peace. Islam is 'release 3.0' in the Abrahamic trilogy of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The fact is, none of the Abrahamic religions are "religions of peace". If you want to find a true religion of peace, you might try Jainism or Tibetan Buddhism.

With regard to the videos showing tacit acceptance of ISIS, do you mean to imply that all Muslims will happily fall in line with ISIS rule? ISIS executes the Shia summarily as they do not consider them to be true Muslims; Shias can't exist in their version of Islam. 

And, the majority of Sunnis in the world are not wishing for ISIS rule. They consider them "extremists" as we do. If you're unhappy with the term 'extremist', get used to it. 'Fundamentalist' is not going to go mainstream (even if many ISIS practices could be characterized as 'fundamental' Islamic interpretations of the faith).

Agree, the US can't claim "righteousness". When we do, we are no different than Islamic entities claiming righteousness. The fact that we are over 80% Christian, makes us vulnerable to a crusades-like mentality with respect to Islam. The 2 most popular Abrahamic religions are poisonous to the world, especially in the last millennium. 

With your last paragraph, you question America's patriotism; I think you're reaching here. American ideals remain largely intact in my view. I think the bigger problem is the US religious fundamentalist movement, to use your word, who would
like to see the US move in the direction of a theocracy.


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