# Circus - No fun for animals



## animal lover

The Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus is coming to Leonardtown &nbsp;April 29th and 30th.  Please help to stop this from happening!

The Cole Bros. Circus has consistantly failed to meet minimum federal standards for the care of animals used in exhibition as established in the Animal Welfare Act.  :angry:    There are more than twenty documented cases of neglect and cruelty against the circus...  Many communities have banned live animal acts, and St. Mary's County should be one of them.   

Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire....  to force them to do these cruel acts the &quot;trainers&quot; use various tools such as whips, electric shock, muzzles and bullhooks, (to name a few).  

Please take a stand against the circus!!!


----------



## cattitude

Just out of curiosity, how does Ringling Bros. stand up in the cruelty area? &nbsp;They've been advertising on TV lately about their great advances and how well they treat their animals. &nbsp;Is this just bs?


----------



## cattitude

Cariblue, that's what I thought. &nbsp;Doesn't PETA and other organizations keep a pretty close watch on these circuses? &nbsp;I'd like more information as well.


----------



## animal lover

Sorry about the lack of info in the first post... &nbsp; More information about the circuses can be found at www.circuses.com.

Not trying to point the finger at one of them. &nbsp;I don't agree with any of them. &nbsp;But Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. is coming to the St. Mary's Fairgrounds in Leonardtown. &nbsp;So, that is the one I brought up. &nbsp;I have a problem with animals being treated like that. &nbsp;


----------



## animal lover

PETA does keep an eye out for maltreatment in circuses.  The link I posted earlier is a PETA link.  I am a member of PETA, which is why posting this information is so important.  

Without local involvement in protesting live animal acts, they will continue to get permits and show up in our neighborhoods.   

If you are want to help, contact John Richards at jrichards@olg.com.  He is the president of the Fair Association who issued the permit for the circus to visit.  The more people that contact the Fair Association and voice their opinions the better.  

(Edited by animal lover at 1:05 pm on April 22, 2002)


----------



## missi1013

PETA sucks!! &nbsp;Don't give them money, they don't do anything with it!!! &nbsp;Trust me I used to do there accounting for them. &nbsp;I know where the money from the mail donations go!! &nbsp;And it is not the animals. &nbsp;People like you got the circus kicked out of Charles County. &nbsp;If we don't eat meat, then what are we to eat? &nbsp;I forgot BEER, not milk!! &nbsp;Like milking a cow hurts them!!!


----------



## animal lover

Missi - I'm sorry that you feel that way. &nbsp;PETA is a fantastic organization... I don't need to give you the statistics about what they do and why they do it, as you used to work for them. &nbsp;But, I don't think that there is a better organization for animals around. &nbsp;With PETA's involvement, standards of living for thousands of animals have been improved, more consumers are now aware of what they buy and what kind of impact it has on animals. &nbsp;I wouldn't class that as &quot;suck&quot;ing.

And Cariblue, yes, the permit has been issued, but there is nothing from stopping it from being revoked. &nbsp;Also, how many people would turn away from the gates, if they knew how the animals learned those tricks? &nbsp;Yes, marching around with signs does work. &nbsp;If one person realizes the torment that the circus animals live each day, then we've done somthing. &nbsp;Most people don't know what is going on. &nbsp;Either because it's easier not to or because they have never been exposed to the truth. &nbsp; Also, if you want to see where PETA's money goes, you can check their website at www.PETA.org. &nbsp;They make their records pretty accessable.


----------



## animal lover

Oh, Missi, &nbsp;I almost forgot. &nbsp; &nbsp;

First, no one told you not to eat meat. &nbsp;PETA wants the treatment of the animals that you eat to be better. &nbsp;Why make their lives and deaths miserable? &nbsp;It may shock you to know, that animals feel pain and fear the same way you do. &nbsp;Nevermind the fact that the environment and your body would be better without it.

Second, while the act of milking may not hurt the cow, the hormones that are put in the cow in order to produce more milk aren't great, and the fact that the cows are kept pregnant in order to continue producing that milk isn't very nice, and the fact that the calves that are produced by the dairy cows are either used for dairy cows themselves or sold for VEAL isn't especially nice either. &nbsp;

Anyway, I take it from your e-mail that you are not interested in helping with boycotting the circus?


----------



## missi1013

&nbsp;I uesd to work for an accounting firm and we do accounting for non-profit org. &nbsp;And I used to be in charge of PETA and other org. Well if only knew that the money went to paying off the employe's and the rent on there many office's, including the one in Canada, and making there mail drops. &nbsp;They send out 4 renewls, and I think about 10 Appeals(when you are a member, and they try to get more money) and lots of prospecting(getting new members). &nbsp;The new one now is putting nickles on the doc's. &nbsp;They send out a million at a time, plus a nickle on each one, plus the cost of doc. and the evelope, and the postage, plus the postage to mail it back(but you do have an option to put a stamp on it). &nbsp;Now add that up? &nbsp;They do 3- 1million drops a year. &nbsp;Now do you see where the money goes. &nbsp;And if &quot;animal lover&quot; is a member, she can say all the stupid appeals they have done. &nbsp;]


I found them!!!

www.consumerfreedom.com

www.activistcash.com

www.milksucks.com

I respect people's rights not to eat animals, but PETA takes it tooo far. &nbsp;They even slam the bible!!!


----------



## missi1013

Animal Lover, 

Do you eat meat? &nbsp;Do you drink milk?

And you must not know PETA to well. &nbsp;Because they don't want you to eat meat or cheese or drink milk. &nbsp;When they would come out to our office, they would be wearing leather shoes, something they protest about offten. &nbsp;Please go on to PETA's website and see how extream they are!!!!


----------



## missi1013

Oh yeah!! &nbsp;One more sight!!

www.jesusveg.com

They say that jesus was a vegetarian. &nbsp;Yeah right!!! &nbsp;This is what I mean by slamming the bible!!!

I'm not knocking you animal lover for your believe's, but PETA goes tooo far!!! &nbsp;I'm sorry!


----------



## animal lover

Well thank you Missi for your oh so bitter reply. &nbsp; Again, this post was not about PETA, or your old job... &nbsp; It was about the animal cruelty that goes on in the circus and the attempts being made by people who care to stop it.

If you would like to continue your belittlement of PETA, could you maybe take it over to &quot;In my opinion&quot;. &nbsp;I'll be more than happy to join you there if you wish to continue this discussion.

Cariblue, thank you for your honesty. &nbsp;As far as I am concerned, even a little help would be very much appreciated. &nbsp;As far as being extreme, I think you misunderstood what I said. &nbsp;I didn't say that everyone should stop eating meat. &nbsp;I said that the treatment of the animals BEFORE it becomes your meat needs to be improved. &nbsp;But regardless, extreme or not. &nbsp;Thank you.


----------



## missi1013

Last word!!! &nbsp;How about stopping the abuse of children first, before animals. I agree that they are not being treated in the best way, but they have improved alot!!!

resepectfully,
missi


----------



## animal lover

Obviously I am way slow on replying...

No I don't eat meat. &nbsp;After watching videos of what goes on in slaughterhouses, I don't intend to ever again. &nbsp;And to be completely honest, I have never felt better in my life.

I have visited PETA's website on many occasions. &nbsp;I don't think that they are extreme at all. &nbsp;I don't agree with everything that they stand for, but I do agree with most of it. &nbsp;Regardless, though, whatever PETA stands for or doesn't stand for or where it spends the money it receives, is beside the point. &nbsp; The POINT is still the mistreatment of animals in the circus...

Now are you gonna make that phone call or what? &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

I'm not a fan of PETA - typically they're a bunch of nonsensical zealots. &nbsp;But I'm against cruelty to animals as well and circuses make me sad. &nbsp;And I agree that treatment of food animals needs improvement. &nbsp;I guess it's like anything in that if you see the process, you'd run screaming. &nbsp;I do like a good steak and my leather coat but I didn't have to see the animal being killed for it. &nbsp;With the circus, you actually see the animals being whipped and threatened - takes the joy out of it for me. &nbsp;&quot;Go Lions! &nbsp;Eat that trainer!&quot;

But I'd be curious how mistreated the animals actually are - it makes sense to me that they are quite expensive and therefore would be treated well to protect the investment. &nbsp;Certainly circus animals have a greater life expectancy that the same animal in the wild. &nbsp;Anybody have info?

Animal Lover sounds more reasonable than the usual PETAs we get in here. &nbsp;Missi described them dead-on.


----------



## slackjawyokel

Animal lover.... If you do not believe that everyone should stop eating meat, then explain your signature!!!


----------



## animal lover

My signature is a belief that I hold personally. &nbsp;It also happens to be a quote from PETA. &nbsp; Not trying to take your hamburgers... just asking you to take a second look at them. &nbsp;

Hello? &nbsp;Anyone remember the circus?? &nbsp;


----------



## missi1013

Welcome to the bb. &nbsp;We always get off topic!!! &nbsp;Get used to it!! &nbsp;Sorry!

I agree that the circus isn't the best place for animals, but look at all the animals that are not there too. I'm not for animal cruelty, but the world has to go on. &nbsp;You can't change everything!! &nbsp;Sorry!


----------



## animal lover

I hear that a lot. &nbsp;That I can't change everything. &nbsp;It's not going to stop me from trying though. &nbsp;I can think of many times in history that people went up against immeasurable odds only to find in the end, they did change things. &nbsp;Even though no one thought they could.

I think I can. &nbsp;I'm glad everyone is taking the time to read my posts. &nbsp;It means that my message is getting out there. &nbsp;I'm not asking you to change your lives. &nbsp;I'm asking you to help to change the life of something else. &nbsp; &nbsp;If anyone is interested in helping, please check my profile and e-mail me for details.

Thanks.


----------



## Christy

Well animal lover, as much as I feel that PETA is comprised of a bunch of granola munching freaks,  I do admire your drive to make a difference. &nbsp; 

I personally won't be going to the circus in Leonardtown, and neither will my kids, so there you go. &nbsp;Score Point 1 for your cause. &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

Well, what about the zoos that keep these animals in cages or only provide a fraction of the territory they are use to? &nbsp;Oh, I know because the animals aren't doing tricks its okay. &nbsp;

Christy,

I'll take the grandchildren just to balance it out. &nbsp;Imagine what would happen to those animals if no one goes and spends any money there.


----------



## vraiblonde

Zoos make me sad, too. &nbsp;All those animals lying around with people gawking at them, kids throwing things at them. &nbsp;But if you enjoy the circus and the zoo, more power to ya. &nbsp;I'm not the person who would try to have those things outlawed. &nbsp;They just make me sad so I don't go. &nbsp;It must be something about animals in cages because it doesn't disturb me that animals are trained for movies or TV.


----------



## Tonio

I used to be a vegetarian for health reasons. I went back to eating meat because I needed more protein in my diet than I could get from non-meat sources. 

I think I'm like most people who eat meat, in that I want my steak to come from cows that were treated humanely during their lives. It bothers me when chickens are bred with so much breast meat that the poor birds can't walk without tipping over. 

Now, PETA insists that eating meat inevitably leads to cruelty like this. I disagree. Many Indian tribes believe that when a hunter catches an animal, that animal is deliberately giving its life to sustain the tribe. Not too much different from the Christian tradition of saying grace before a meal. If God created cows and chickens for us to eat, shouldn't we pay God back by being kind to these animals while they live?

I feel really conflicted about zoos. On one hand, I don't like to see the animals living on damp cement. Wildlife preserves are better in this regard, since these are more like the animals' actual habitats. On the other hand, without zoos very few American children would ever see elephants or lions, which are rare enough to begin with.


----------



## missi1013

For the people who think I'm a &quot;out of control brute&quot; I was stating the facts and I hate when people ruin things for other people. &nbsp;I'm sorry if I disrespected anyone. &nbsp;I will be going to the circus, and if that's hurts anyone I'm sorry. &nbsp;But if my kids want to go, then I will take them.


----------



## Ken King

Missi,

Damn right, go to the circus. &nbsp;Have some fun and watch the animals perform. &nbsp;Spend money so that they can feed them. &nbsp;Apparently PETA doesn't want them to be able to keep the animals alive by attacking their ability to make money. &nbsp;


----------



## Christy

Ken, I see enough of animals performing everyday of my life! &nbsp;Steve's acrobatics on the pool cover is a perfect example!  &nbsp;

I've never really been big into the circus, they all creep me out. &nbsp;Them and carnie folks.  &nbsp;Not big into Zoo's either, I tend to spend the day hoping and praying that the Panda bear mistakes all those screaming children for a piece of yummy bamboo! 

And I'm sorry you can flavor tofu every which way, but it still can't replace a huge slab of dead cow! &nbsp;Medium rare! &nbsp;

Oh and that brings up another point. &nbsp;I tend to lean more toward eating animals that have sh*t
ty life, that way death isn't all that bad. &nbsp;I know that sounds callous, but I really do think I'd feel much more guilty if I knew I was eating a cow (or dare I say it? PIG!  ) who spent leisurely days roaming the pasture or wallowing in a good mud hole, and then POW!  The happy days are all over and they become dinner. &nbsp; &nbsp;I'd feel awful for being responsible for cutting short such a good life. &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

Christy,

Okay, I understand that you have an ongoing circus and zoo around the house. &nbsp;Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. &nbsp;Kids like all the ruckus though. &nbsp;And it is entertaining.

I hope the meat comment wasn’t directed at me. &nbsp;I love a big old piece of beef, pig, deer, chicken or even smaller critters. &nbsp;Got to have my meat and it sure is good with some mashed potatoes, gravy and biscuits. &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

Christy, I was curious about that - if you're still eating pork chops and bacon these days. &nbsp;

Anyway, Missi, go and enjoy the show. &nbsp;I feel like such a wuss because zoos and circuses make me feel bad, but I can't help it. &nbsp;My husband pointed out to me that animals in the zoo or circus are doing much better than animals in the wild - when they're sick, someone takes care of them. &nbsp;No predator animals come after them. &nbsp;They don't starve to death. &nbsp;And he's right. &nbsp;So go and support the animals in good conscience - if it weren't for that circus, those lions would be fighting hyenas off their cubs.


----------



## ShellyCW

I prefer stupid human tricks, you don't need to coerce many people to do it. &nbsp;But clowns are a different story, they creep me out big time. &nbsp;I might sign animal lover's petition just to keep them out of here. &nbsp;


----------



## missi1013

Thanks guys for the support.


----------



## animal lover

Ken - I think you might be sorely mistaken on what circuses are there for, and obviously you are quite happy living in ignorance so I will leave you there.  But one point I do want to make, just in case anyone was silly enough to believe your statements...   The animals would not starve if no one went to the circus.  The circuses would be shut down and the animals would go to live out the rest of their lives on reserves.  The only thing that you are doing by bringing your family to the circus is telling them that it is alright to abuse and mistreat animals as long as it is amusing.  Can you honestly say that you get pleasure out of seeing animals performing tricks that are completely unnatural to them?   Do you think that elephants stand on their heads in the wild?   Also, the animals aren't the ones making money.  The animals are the ones performing strange and terrifing acts to amuse people like you and then they are placed back into small cages until their next &quot;performance&quot;.  By the way, exactly how do you think they learned those acts?  Asking them politely??


(Edited by animal lover at 7:08 am on April 23, 2002)


----------



## animal lover

Shelly - Just a thought about your dislike for clowns... &nbsp; On August 23rd, 2001, a Clyde &nbsp;Beatty-Cole Bros. Clown was found guilty on nine counts, including sodomy, sexual abuse, and endangering the welfare of a child. &nbsp;December 21st, 1999 - a Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Clown was caught on surveillance camera, sodomizing a boy. &nbsp; &nbsp; 

something to think about. &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

Animal Lover,

I don't think I am ignorant, circuses are there to make money by providing entertainment. &nbsp;Unfortunately we have morons like you that try to put those that own the animals out of business. &nbsp;Which causes them to either destroy the animals or find someone else to take care of them because they can't afford to feed them.

Why not find a good cause like helping starving people before you come whimpering in here crying about the alleged abuses these animals suffer. &nbsp;You aren't a lover of animals you are a loser.


----------



## animal lover

Ken - Yeah, I'm the loser. &nbsp; You think that people that abuse animals should be paid for it. &nbsp;HA! &nbsp;You are a joke. &nbsp;Been inbred long? &nbsp; &nbsp;I can't even get mad at your pathetic response, because it is so stupid. &nbsp; Maybe someone should smack you around with a whip and make you do tricks for awhile. &nbsp;Maybe then you would see how it feels. &nbsp;I know, how about we rip your children away from you when they are about five... put them in a small, filthy cage, give them minimal amounts of water and food, and then electrocute them, whip them, beat them until they do want you want them to. &nbsp;That's what happens you know. &nbsp;Of course. &nbsp;I forgot, you don't know that. &nbsp;You think that the animals all volunteered to be there. &nbsp; &nbsp;Yeah, I'm sure they just lined right up... &quot;pick me for a life of misery, pick me!!&quot; &nbsp;I can hear their little voices now. &nbsp;What's scary is that people like you exist. &nbsp;And that you are out there in public. &nbsp;Spreading your ignorance like a virus. &nbsp;OH my God! &nbsp;And you BRED!!! &nbsp;Lets just hope that your children have more sense then you do. &nbsp; You make me laugh you are so sad.

The animals are being destroyed right now. &nbsp;And people like you, KEN, are helping to pay for it. &nbsp;The big cats go insane behind those bars, literally. &nbsp;The elephants are covered in scars from being hit with bullhooks. &nbsp;They are left without water so they don't urinate in the ring... &nbsp;Sounds like a whopping good time to me. &nbsp;Yeah, much better to keep them there. &nbsp;Great idea Ken.

Want entertainment? &nbsp;Re-read your posts. &nbsp;
Want to contribute to abuse, torture and torment of animals? &nbsp;Go to the circus.


----------



## animal lover

For everyone else, here is the important stuff again...  Since it has been lost in the fray.

The Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus is coming to Leonardtown  April 29th and 30th.  Please help to stop this from happening! 

The Cole Bros. Circus has consistantly failed to meet minimum federal standards for the care of animals used in exhibition as established in the Animal Welfare Act.  :angry:   There are more than twenty documented cases of neglect and cruelty against the circus...  Many communities have banned live animal acts, and St. Mary's County should be one of them.   

Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire....  to force them to do these cruel acts the &quot;trainers&quot; use various tools such as whips, electric shock, muzzles and bullhooks, (to name a few).   

Please take a stand against the circus!!!  

For more info go to www.circuses.com, or contact me for details.  Not you Ken.  You don't get to know.   &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 


(Edited by animal lover at 8:30 am on April 23, 2002)


----------



## Ken King

Loser,

Typical PETA response, attack me and call me inbred, shows how much evidence you look at before making a claim. &nbsp;Such as what you are doing to a circus that has received approval from our government to operate and provide the entertainment to the people. &nbsp;If there was any validity to your claims other then what is found in your amoebic mind the animal control folks and DLLR would shut them down. &nbsp;Obviously that isn’t the case because you operate on speculation and innuendo and avoid factual information. &nbsp;You can make idiotic comparisons between humans and animals all you want there is no connection. &nbsp;

You also hide behind a false name so no one knows it is you supporting your claims, you hide and slink around in your cowardly fashion. &nbsp;Come on down and smack me around if you can, you might find that your a$$ 
gets handed back to you in a much abused shape. &nbsp;Though I will admit it would be a challenge to get your head out of it as I feel it is buried to the hilt. &nbsp;I sure wish you would go hunting with me in the near future. &nbsp;If you want to throw insults back and forth, I am here. &nbsp;If you want to smack me around, I am here. &nbsp;And you won’t find me playing the coward like you and your type do as I stand behind what I say and use my real name instead of hiding under an alias. &nbsp;Maybe if your mother had pushed you from one of her eight teats earlier in your life you would understand that most of us are different then the other animals. &nbsp;


----------



## Christy

Vrai, yes I still do pork chops! &nbsp;Just not in front of Daisy!


----------



## animal lover

Hey Ken. &nbsp;I'm so impressed. &nbsp;Thanks for playing. &nbsp;Bye bye!! &nbsp;

Have a nice day! &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

Playing, so none of what you posted was serious. &nbsp;Typical idiotic behavior. &nbsp;BTW were you making an offer with your emoticon or are you waiting for a Clydsedale?


----------



## jlabsher

Leave the circus alone, and leave the kids alone. &nbsp;I don't mind you having your opinion, but DO NOT try to keep me from having mine. &nbsp;That is the trouble with vegans and PETA types, you try to force me to conform to your way of belief. &nbsp;If you mess with my family trying to enjoy itself in a lawful manner you are breaking the law. &nbsp;Why is it that PETA types usually live in the city and not in the country or on farms? &nbsp;Because they have no clue about the reality of nature? &nbsp;Maybe. &nbsp;Circuses and zoos open children's eyes to the wonder of the world and animals, stealing that right from them is an unspeakable crime.


----------



## animal lover

I don't believe that I ever once tried to take away your opinion. &nbsp;You are pretty defensive over nothing. &nbsp; I placed a post on this board, because it was for PETS AND ANIMALS. &nbsp;Not PETA. &nbsp;Not VEGANs. &nbsp; &nbsp;I placed the post for people who are interested in helping stop the abuse of animals. &nbsp;Whether you want to believe it or not it is happening. &nbsp;I can't make you change your mind. &nbsp;I can only tell you what I know. &nbsp;I have given you the website, there are others out there... It's not just PETA. &nbsp;Its the animals shelters, The ASPCA, the Humane Societies... &nbsp; Don't bash it just because you hear the name PETA. &nbsp; If you care about animals, look in to it for yourself. &nbsp;Or don't. &nbsp;And just to clear the record. &nbsp;I am not on here speaking for PETA. &nbsp;Their views are on their website. &nbsp;I am on here speaking for me. &nbsp;I only said that I was a member of PETA, because someone else brought it up.

There isn't much of a point yelling at me. &nbsp; And as far as the &quot;reality of nature&quot; goes. &nbsp; How often do you see a bear riding a bike though the woods? &nbsp;


----------



## BL

Animal Lover,

Like other people were saying in this thread, don’t you have other things to worry about? &nbsp;It is because of people like you that we lost religion in school, can’t even say the Pledge of Allegiance in the class room in some parts of the country, and I even heard recently that some people think dodge ball is a demoralizing game (what a joke). &nbsp;Why don’t you concentrate on cutting taxes or something like that? &nbsp;Now you want to take away the circus from the kids. &nbsp; What is next, they can’t go outside because they might step on the grass or touch a tree. &nbsp;


----------



## jimmy

Wow....Ken, I've never heard you this animated! Nice, nice...this is quite a good little fight going on here. &nbsp;I just HAVE to say something after seeing how rough and tumble this is. 
For one; I have no doubt that there is mistreatment of animals in the circus. I think it's impossible to guage their &quot;happiness level&quot; since they can't...uh...talk...but never-the-less, most animals are probably better off in the wild---THAT BEING SAID---
I agree with Ken that simply shutting these circuses down and lashing out against the owners/performers is NOT the quick fix solution you, animial lover, seem to see it to be. &nbsp;The DLLR, ASPCA and whatever other anmial-acronym watch-dogs are most likely well aware of any of these conditions in these circuses and have, thus far, allowed them to operate. So you really can't fault these guys for making a legal buck. And most of the people in the circus are PERFORMERS who have a vested interest in entertaining and, thus, are not seeing &quot;opportunities for animal cruelty&quot; as their primary impetus for joining.
So maybe something is going on that needs to be addressed. I still don't feel like your demonizing of the Circus (or for that matter, the childish way you chose to attack ken) are really doing anything for your cause.


----------



## animal lover

Jimmy - 
First off thank you for taking the time to read my post. &nbsp; 

Secondly, while I appreciate your response, I think you may have gotten my intentions wrong, right along with everyone else. &nbsp; I am not attacking the circus or the men and women that work in it. &nbsp;I don't think that I have a quick fix. &nbsp;Yes, there are other agencies working to ban live animal acts, and no they don't agree with the circus. &nbsp;But you are right. &nbsp;Right now they are legal. &nbsp;That doesn't make what happens in them right. &nbsp;The animal welfare act is very broad and does not cover everything. &nbsp;That is something that we are trying to change. &nbsp;But, like everything else it takes time. &nbsp; Until then, I think that people need to make it known that we will not tolerate abuse to animals. &nbsp;I don't know very many people that think it is okay. &nbsp;Even while most of you have been spitting venom at me, you still agree that the abuse that goes on is wrong. &nbsp;I never said lets throw the performers in the circus on to the fire. &nbsp;But boycotting the circus itself is the first step to changing the abuse that goes on in them.

A couple people have asked why I'm not fighting child abuse, or tax laws etc. &nbsp;I am fighting this because I believe that animals deserve better treatment. &nbsp;I think that they have a right to be treated humanely. &nbsp;

This isn't a new idea everyone. &nbsp;Some countries have banned live animal acts. &nbsp;Loads of counties in the states have as well. &nbsp;I'm not some radicial who's going to light the circus tent on fire. &nbsp;I'm not making the abuse up for something to write a post about... it's happening. &nbsp; All I wanted to do was make people aware that it was going on.

I'm sorry Jimmy if you think my responses to Ken were childish. &nbsp;I didn't see any reason to get as upset as he obviously was. &nbsp;In future I can start calling his mother names too, if you view that as more mature.


----------



## vraiblonde

Well. &nbsp;Leave this forum for one evening and all hell breaks loose. &nbsp;Cariblue and Missi. &nbsp;AnimalLover and Ken. &nbsp;Everyone wants to duke it out. &nbsp;And JIMMY taking up for KEN! &nbsp;Slap my face and call me Alice.

I agree with AnimalLover that most live animal acts are cruel BUT it's not true that animals are better off in the wild. &nbsp;Don't you watch the Discovery Channel?

AL sez 





> Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire


True - they naturally hunt, kill and eat each other. &nbsp;If you were a lion, how would you rather spend your days - trying to keep the predators off your cubs or balancing on a ball? &nbsp;Starving in the African veldt or jumping through a hoop? &nbsp;Circus animals actually have it better than their wild counterparts, if you think about it.


----------



## mark

vrailblonde...you really are an idiot...circus animals have it better off...? are you for real, you probably also think that alaska borders florida... animals are far better off in the wild, that beaten, tortured and humiliated in a circus...

if i were a lion i would much rather take my chances ofn the african savannah than live in a cage in a circus, fearful for my life...

i completely agree with animal lover and I for one am not going to go to the circus....


----------



## mark

ken,

If you are still around, i have been listening to you go on and on... you really are small minded aren't you... educate yourself before you going spouting off bashing other people...

animal lover is right, circuses are horrifically cruel to animals...and they will be beaten and starved and tortured to make them perform... and if you are wondering how i know that...i used to work for ringling brothers..i have witnessed the barbaric acts of cruelty that go on behind the scenes...

you may take you children to the circus and everyone will go oohhh at the animals but they are being tortured and humiliated and do these tricks because they are intensely fearfull of their handler... please don't support the circus everyone... explain to your children that circus harm animals and that is why we do not go... take you kids to a wildlife park, do not encourage these circuses to show animals... think before you act..


----------



## animal lover

cariblue - 
The quickest site I can give you right now is www.milksucks.com. &nbsp;That has lots of links off of it to medical sites, etc. &nbsp; I will look through my stuff and get you a site that doesn't link back to PETA, since I already know in this chat room, PETA makes people spit at me... &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

Mark, what on Earth did I do to you that you would use your very first post on these forums to call me names? &nbsp;At least I know that Alaska and Florida are supposed to be capitalized. &nbsp;So who's the idiot?

&lt;i&gt;There's&lt;/i&gt; the PETA people we know and love. &nbsp;Even AnimalLover couldn't hold out for long before she started wigging out and getting abusive. &nbsp;Now, ask again why nobody wants to support your cause...


----------



## Christy

Okay, I don't normally do this, but I just can't help myself! 

I simply find it hysterical that Mark is requesting Ken to educate himself and calling Vrai an idiot, when he can't even put a grammatically accurate sentence together!    

On another note.... Jeesh guys!  Lighten up on animal lover!   Just because she's got a soft spot for the dancing bears, doesn't make her a total left wing devil, hell bent on destroying the lives of the Right (big emphasis on the &quot;Right&quot;!  As we are always RIGHT!  )

Sorry!    Couldn't control that little outburst!  

(Edited by Christy at 12:48 pm on April 23, 2002)


(Edited by Christy at 1:01 pm on April 23, 2002)


----------



## mark

I am not a member of PETA.... I actually used to work in the circus... I am verbally bashing you because I have never heard anything so stupid in my life..

you said they naturally hunt, kill and eat each other...you hit the note there...NATURALLY..... do you really think that it is natural for lions to jump through hoops or balance on a ball.... think will you.... at the moment you live in your natural surroundings... if you were forcibly removed from where you lived, put in a cage and then made to perform tricks in front of hundreds of people screaming would you be afraid...of course you would... and humans can understand what is going on.... do you think that a lion can fully comprehend what has happened to it....

you think about it......


----------



## animal lover

Vrai - 
A person can only be shouted at for so long before firing something back. &nbsp;I think I did quite well holding out as long as I did.

Again, I am not here to defend PETA. &nbsp;I am here to defend the animals who are being abused. &nbsp;If I lash out at someone because of comments that are made, that is in no way a reflection of PETA. &nbsp;Just because I am a member of PETA, doesn't make me a spokesperson. &nbsp; 

I don't know what happened in here before that makes you all despise PETA so much, but I wish you would take the label off of me and just read what I am trying to say. &nbsp;You are all so hell bent on labeling me as one of the &quot;PETA fanatics&quot; that you are missing the point.

Christy - THANK YOU!!! &nbsp;

and Mark - Thank you too. &nbsp;It's nice to have someone on my side.


----------



## jimmy

Mark,
You used to work in the circus???? For real? Dude, what did you do???? I've never heard from anyone that actually WORKED at the circus....

Vrai,
Ken and I come down on similar sides in the Israel/Palestine thing too, you know...I respect him and, though he didn't need it I'm sure, took umbrage with the way AL tried to discredit him by simply saying &quot;you are ignorant and I'm right&quot;...I hate that kind of thinking...even though I get accused of it a lot...hmmm....

AL,
I DO think that animal cruelty is an issue that needs to be taken seriously. I won't EVER become a vegitarian but I probably would have trouble killing an animal myself. Not to say that I'm agianst hunting or killing animals for food, I just don't know if I could do it (I'm glad I have friends that do, though cause damn is venision good eats!!). But I find it hard to condone things like the way veal is raised or how chickens are bred for breast meat so large they can hardly stand and some have no beaks or something...seems a little over the top. But I'm not sure that all animals that perform in a circus are beaten and shocked and starved. Common sense would lead me to believe that these institutions are watched at least fairly carefully and the treatment of these animals MUST have gotten better over the years. &nbsp;I can't just trust any info that an activist gives to me because there's an agenda there. I really wish that BOTH sides of this arguement had been presented but, so far, I haven't seen a source from you that shows the other side and then had you discredit it. That's how I'm convinced of things; a two-sided argument.


----------



## mark

well christy

again we are getting off the topic, but i hardly think that this is the place to worry about making sure that your sentance is grammatically correct, i guess you really have nothing to do...

concentrate on the subject matter, this is not merely a chat room... this is an important subject... at the end of the day, no matter what anybody says, circuses torture, humiliate and perform horrific acts of cruelty on the animals that they own.. &nbsp;thats it.. it is as simple as that... why do we want to support that ? Why do we want to help put money in the pockets of people that condone this ?

this is not about eating meat, or whether vegans are left wing or communists or anything like that... this is about circuses abuse animals and if we pay money to the circus we condone that...

think that through in your head... if we pay money to the circus, we condone animal cruelty... as much so as if someone came into your yard, or your house took your beloved dog or cat and tortured it....

if we pay money to the circus we condone animal cruelty, we condone torturing these beautiful animals... we condone this to continue.... can you live with yourself... at the moment an elephant is being whipped, beaten , starved and tortured in preparation for this show....

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TAKE YOU KIDS TO THAT ?


----------



## vraiblonde

Well, Mark, you must be pretty young if that's the stupidest thing you've ever heard. &nbsp;And I don't think verbal bashing is the best way to get your point across.

&quot;Nature, red in tooth and claw&quot;...just like animal rights activists.


----------



## mark

jimmy, i used to work as a general handy man, helping to put together stages, rig lights, fix trucks, etc, etc, ..you name it everything

and animal lover is not joking when she tells what is happening in these places, i have witnessed horrific acts.... the kind that turn your stomach to get these animals to get ready for a show... the conditions that they are in are really terrible....and the brutallity that goes on is unbelievable..

I know a few guys that left because these circus people were so sick, i really mean it.... don't let your kids go and see these guys... you are giving money to some of the most sick twisted people out there...

sure it may look good under that big top, with all the pretty clothes and lights.... but behind the scenes, you wouldn't be able to stop yourself from thowing up...it really is sick..... don't go...and tell your friends not to go... circus people are not the sort of people you want in your town...

believe me ....


----------



## Christy

Mark, &nbsp;Seems to me, the circus put money in your pocket for a while. &nbsp; &nbsp; You must be from France! &nbsp;Mr. Hypocrite! &nbsp; &nbsp;And by the way dude, read the subject matter fully before you go off half cocked.  &nbsp;I DON'T DO THE CIRCUS! &nbsp;Nor do I take my kids. &nbsp;So back off buckaroo! &nbsp;

&quot;if you were forcibly removed from where you lived, put in a cage and then made to perform tricks in front of hundreds of people screaming would you be afraid...&quot; &nbsp;Isn't that part of Brittney Spears 2002 concert performance? &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

AL and Mark, your communication styles leave a lot to be desired. &nbsp;And yes, AL, since you applauded Mark's ugly behavior, you get lumped in with him as a mean a$$hole. &nbsp;You showed your true colors.

Why don't you kids think of circuses as taking predators out of the wild so other animals might live? &nbsp;Think how many zebra lives are saved each year because some of their natural enemies are removed. &nbsp;Ever see a lion run down a zebra? &nbsp;Pretty nasty stuff. &nbsp;Oh, I forgot - you all don't watch Discovery.


----------



## animal lover

Vrai - 

You must be joking. &nbsp;Please tell me that you are not serious. &nbsp;If you are actually watching the Discovery Channel, then you must have it on mute. &nbsp;Honestly. &nbsp;You're being funny right? &nbsp;You can't honestly think that! &nbsp;Seriously now, you're joking right?

And hey, don't be so mean. &nbsp;I never called you any names. &nbsp;What's the whole mean a$$hole comment for? &nbsp;I was applauding Mark for seeing my point of view. &nbsp;Not for calling you an idiot. &nbsp;


----------



## missi1013

And you guys thought I was mean! &nbsp;


I'm sorry Cariblue. &nbsp;Just like AL is trying to get her word out, well so was I. &nbsp;I worked with PETA one-on-one. &nbsp;I don't just send money in once a month like AL. &nbsp;I should have been a little nicer about it. &nbsp;That's really not me. &nbsp;So I hope you can forgive me. &nbsp;Thanks.


----------



## mark

vraiblonde...

in answer to your rediculous post, my god people like you annoy me..

kids...i am 42 so not quite a kid....

and think how many zebras survive because their predators are taken away... i actuallt cannot believe i have heard something as stupid as that.. i am not a mean *******, i believe what animal lover is saying, it just frustrates me when i read some really stupid thoughts...

do you think what you are saying, basically you are saying there will be more zebras in the world because of circuses... ok..i am not going to verbally bash you anymore... &nbsp;

put your barbies down for a moment and listen... i will use small words..and I am not talking about the eating meat debate...

circuses hurt animals... for no other reasons than profit.. circuses abuse animals thats it... why do you want to support that ?


----------



## missi1013

You know Mark you are an A@@hole! Maybe if you would have been a little nicer, some people might have listen to you. &nbsp;But now you just gone and pissed us all off!!!

And Vari- &nbsp;I wouldn't take that &quot;put down the barbie&quot; thing either!


----------



## Christy

What is it with animal activists and their ZERO sense of humor! &nbsp; &nbsp;Mark you take yourself WAAAAAY to seriously and get your bowels in an uproar over just about any comment. &nbsp; &nbsp;You also have an over inflated perception of your own intellect. &nbsp;It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or an animal activist) to figure out Vrai is just being facetious you big dope! &nbsp;:silly:


----------



## mark

the thing is everyone, this is a serious topic.. AL has brought something to our attention, something that is happening in our community, something that we have the power to change...

I am not an animal activist, but as AL has brought it to our attention, we must do something about it, this is our community folks... and we don't want these people here... we don't want people here that abuse animals...
there is no need for it.... i would encourage you to find out the truth for yourself if you don't believe AL or I... but do something about it... you have all spent so much time on here talking about it...

now..are you folks going to do something or are you not....


----------



## missi1013

Noooo! &nbsp;You people already ran the circus out of Charles. &nbsp;

Oh by the way, you can explain to my 3 year old way he didn't get to see the circus this year. &nbsp;He still hasn't stop crying about it. &nbsp;Hopefully you won't ruin it for the kids in St Mary's. &nbsp;


----------



## animal lover

Cariblue - 
Thank you.  You have made the abuse worthwhile...  

Missi - 
Sorry about the Charles County thing. &nbsp;(Well okay I'm not really sorry, but I am sorry that your 3 year old is upset) &nbsp;

(Edited by animal lover at 2:01 pm on April 23, 2002)


----------



## vraiblonde

When you jump into a forum and start name-calling, you can rest assured that all you'll do is alienate people. &nbsp;So if you were looking for support for your cause, consider it frittered away by your bigger desire to belittle and anger people. &nbsp;Way to get people to sign your petition! &nbsp;You certainly won some fans over, didn't you?

Ya'll might think about what you really want and find better ways of getting it. &nbsp;Mark, hopefully animals like you because I can't imagine that any people do. &nbsp;You say you're not going to verbally bash me anymore, then you do it again in the very next sentence. &nbsp;Good going! &nbsp;Way to get people to see your point of view! &nbsp;&quot;Put down the barbies&quot; - ha ha! &nbsp;How clever! &nbsp;Did you learn that in the circus?


----------



## RoseRed

I must say.... &nbsp;the fur sure is flying for the be kind to animals thread.....


----------



## mark

cariblue...you are dead right, lets do something in our own backyard... i for one am going to call that fairgounds president...

and missi....I am not going to explain to your kid why he didn't get to see the circus that's your job as a parent... you can explain to him that the circus trainers hurt and are nasty to the animals..and that is why we do not go.. then get into your car and take him to the national zoo in DC.. its free... and he can see all the animals he wants...

..and before all you people start going on with what about zoo's then.... let's take this thing one step at a time... this is our community.... we live here.... and if we don't want people it it that hurt and abuse animals that we have a right to do something about it


----------



## Christy

Mark, I don't want liberals in my community. &nbsp; I've tried and tried for years to convince the rest of my community members to revoke their license to speak and breathe, as it uses up valuable oxygen, better conserved for the &quot;always righties&quot;!  &nbsp;

If you back me on my cause, I'll gladly slap a PETA sticker to my leather jacket, and chain myself to an elephant for you! &nbsp;


----------



## mark

vraiblonde,

I am just trying to make you think about what you are saying, are you really offended, does it really hurt... i bet not as much as that poor elephant that is being beaten right at this moment...

lets try and put things is perspective.... &nbsp;I am asking you a simple question, do you really want to support something that abuses animals... do you want that in your community... 

this is to everyone here... lets do something about this, lets stop the abuse right here, right now, lets stop this fair from coming to st. marys... lets show the circus that people of southern maryland don't stand for that sort of thing... show them that we are decent folk and we don't want their sort round these parts...


----------



## Ken King

Mark,

Educate myself, hmm, let's see the circus has currently been authorized to operate in this county, the link that Animal Lover provided with further links to the Beatty-Cole Bros. circus via PETA shows that there have been allegations of abuse but no convictions, the one fine mentioned indicates that they had to pay a $10,000 fine but that was suspended if the funds were used for the animals, and the intent of a circus is to provide entertainment to the populace. &nbsp;PETA conveniently goes off subject with the clown being charged which has nothing to do with the topic other then it was a circus employee. &nbsp;What more is there to know? &nbsp;You say this is an important subject, for whom? &nbsp; Not me, other then I found a place to take the grandkids over the weekend. &nbsp;I’ll spend some money so they can buy some food for the animals instead of boycotting them creating a more desperate scenario for those you claim to be concerned about.

I also noticed you didn’t work with the animals but were basically a “roadie”, such a wealth of knowledge I am sure. &nbsp;I was going to bet you were about to say you were a clown, but I guess you are over qualified for that or maybe just a liar that was the clown that the PETA site talked about. &nbsp; I did notice that you said others left because of the cruelty but you didn’t claim that so I guess it was okay with you when your pockets were being filled with the proceeds of such alleged scandalous acts. &nbsp;Christy is right you are a hypocrite.

BTW, call the President of the county fair. &nbsp;He has nothing to do with this event; even an uneducated person such as myself knows that. &nbsp;


----------



## animal lover

Ken - 

 I don't know who you called but you are wrong. &nbsp;The President of the Fair Association is directly involved with getting the circus here. &nbsp;His name is John Richards and his phone number is 301-475-2256. &nbsp;

 No one else had anything to do with it, not St. Mary's Commissioner Office, not the St Mary's County Sheriff, not the Parks&amp;Recreation, not Community Service... Not even Leonardtown local government. &nbsp;


----------



## mark

ken,

this is not about me... so i am going to refrain from bashing you back, suffice to say i was not the clown and i did stop working for the circus because of how sick these people were... 

you say that you will give money to the circus and then they will be able to feed their animals...and you have read the PETA information on circuses so obviously you do realize that something is wrong there... &nbsp;

i am getting tired of talking to people that are closed off, all I am saying is that I support Animal Lover, and I have seen the acts of cruelty first hand... why do you still want to take your grandkids to that...

will you whisper in their ears as they are watching animals stand on their heads, &quot;thats not natural by the way, and the animals had to be tortured and beaten to perform like that&quot; .. or would you rather that your grandkids had no idea what the truth is... and grow up thinking that it is okay to abuse animals....

children are the future of our country and we must educate them to take positions of responsibilty, they will be running the country one day... taking them to the circus and telling them lies is not the way to start


----------



## vraiblonde

Mark, screw yourself, okay? &nbsp;If you'd taken a second to read through the posts instead of just attacking, you'd have seen that I was the original poster who agreed with AnimalLover and said &quot;no&quot; to the circus (and zoos). &nbsp;I am, and always will be, totally against animal abuse. &nbsp;However, if a trainer wanted to take a whip to you I'd applaud. &nbsp; Might teach you some manners.


----------



## mark

vraiblonde,

if you are and always will be against animal abuse...then DO something about it.... lets stop attacking each other on here... and do something about the animal abuse that is coming to our county... go and tell your neighbours tonight, tell your kids, give the teachers of your kids a call and tell them, lets start educating people about this


----------



## Ken King

Animal Lover,

Having dealt with events that utilize the Fair Grounds I realize that the permission to use the site comes from Mr. Richards’s board.  For permits and such the circus deals with the Governmental Center, I think the taxation and assessment section.  Which should have been in order prior to the circus receiving permission from the fair board.  I still say he has nothing to do with this event because it has the required permits and meets one of the uses allowed for on that property.  Call him all you want and complain, then drive by while the circus is in town and see how many people your actions stopped.   By the way what you posted wasn’t his phone number it was the office at the Fair Grounds.

Anyway back to a previous comment you made about milk production, you said, “and the fact that the cows are kept pregnant in order to continue producing that milk”, that is somewhat incorrect.  Milk producers try to get their cows on a yearly birthing cycle for the 5 to 6 years that a cow lactates.  The gestation for a cow is around 9 months and milk is produced for an average of 305 days after calving.  60 days before the next calving milking is stopped and the expecting cow is allowed to dry off.  So they aren’t kept pregnant.   


mark,

I second Vriablondes opinion and think you should go over to the nearest corner and self fornicate.  I think I might just buy a dozen or so tickets and give them away so kids can have some fun.

(Edited by Ken King at 2:59 pm on April 23, 2002)


----------



## missi1013

Hey Ken I'll go with you. &nbsp;Since the circus got ruined here!


----------



## BL

Mark,

Like I told AL, don’t you have anything better to do than bitch about a circus? &nbsp;If you are so intelligent why don’t you petition for something important. &nbsp;Do you really think keeping the circus out of ST Marys is going to stop the so called abuse toward animals, and it seems that you have no supporters here except AL, so why bother? &nbsp;


----------



## Christy

Holy Cow (pun intended)  You go farmer Ken! &nbsp; &nbsp;You are too much sometimes! 

Got any squirrel gravy? &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

&quot;Got any squirrel gravy? &quot; &nbsp;Won't have any until September when they come back in to season. &nbsp;Guess I'll settle for a little London Broil.


----------



## mark

Ken,

I have had about as much as i can take from you, and i was trying to be nice.

Obviously, there is just no getting through to you. You must be the typical southern maryland in-bred...all those years of in-breeding by your relatives has resulted in an IQ lower than the gutter in which you were crawled from.

You know this is an important subject and you drag it down to the level of your birthplace...

For stubborn idiots like you with your closed mind, there is just no hope, and to be honest Ken, you are not worth the time and trouble.. People like you should just try to blend in with the background and try not to talk to much...


----------



## spinner

I think the circus is put on by the Lions club or some other organization as a fund raiser. John Richards has nothing to do with it other than being fair board president. 
Personally I don't believe in the circus, I don't go to them, and I never took my child to one. Even when she was young she could understand the concept of animal abuse. And I don't belong to or support PETA, so please &nbsp;don't go there. In reading the posts I think most of you are behaving rather childishly with the name calling. That really isn't the way to get a point across.


----------



## jimmy

AL and Mark,

How about instead of trying to get everyone against the circus, you work on trying to get circuses to act more responsibly? There is a trial going on (mabye it's over?) about a handler from Ringling Bros. who abused an elephant named Asia. This is an excerpt from the article:

&quot;Gebel, son of legendary animal trainer Gunther Gebel-Williams, is accused of using an ankus -- a stick with a metal hook -- to strike the female Asian elephant when she hesitated before entering the ring at Compaq Center in San Jose on Aug. 25, said Prosecutor Carolyn Powell. A San Jose police sergeant and two Humane Society officers routinely monitoring the circus reported seeing the elephant suddenly rush forward. The said they later found two nickel-sized puncture wounds behind her left leg.&quot;

So now, that f-d-up a-hole is on trial and he should be. I'm NOT for hurting animals just for our entertainment. But animals perform in shows and learn tricks in places and are treated well by the staff in many other areas. What about Disney, Sea World, the Aquarium etc. who have pretty good reps for treating animals well? Of course, some animals don't thrive in captivity and that has to be taken into account but there are some animals that live much longer in captivity so that's not a good arguement either. &nbsp;It seems from the above artice that people are monitoring the circuses and when abuse is noticed, it IS dealt with. So as long as that remains the case, why not allow the damn circus to come down so that some kids can some fun stuff?
And Mark, if you're such an &quot;Activist&quot; what were you doing while you were &quot;witnessing all the abuse&quot; while working at the circus? &nbsp;You couldn't go up and say anything? You couldn't report anyone? Were you stuck in a little car?


----------



## animal lover

Ken - 

I'm sorry that I have to spell this out for you, as I assumed that everyone would understand what I meant the first time I said it. &nbsp;When I said that cows are kept pregnant, I obviously did not mean that there is a calf inside of them at all times. &nbsp;Thank you though for informing all of us about your day of cow research. &nbsp;Hope you learned something in the process.

As far as telling Mark to self fornicate, I'm sure that is a matter that you will not have to research on the internet, as you are more than likely well versed in the matter. &nbsp; &nbsp;God forbid someone have an opinion that is not yours. &nbsp;

I can picture you, sitting at your desk. &nbsp;Fat hairy fingers typing away on the keyboard... &nbsp;T-shirt that doesn't quite reach your pants... balding... &nbsp;Bright orange hunters cap sitting beside you. &nbsp;Do you have animal heads on your wall. &nbsp;Ahh yes, the great white hunter. &nbsp;Republician too I bet. &nbsp;All for good GW aren'tcha? &nbsp; Well, don't worry there Ken. &nbsp;Those fancy pants liberals aren't gonna getcha this time. &nbsp;You are probably right. &nbsp;The circus will still come to town, and small minded indivduals like yourselves will visit it. &nbsp;I can hear you wooping and &quot;hollering&quot;, so impressed by those clever animals... Who knew that bears could ride bikes? &nbsp;Betcha never saw that on your huntin' trips. &nbsp;Of course you probably didn't see much on your huntin' trips, being that nice big cooler of Bud was sitting beside ya to keep ya company. &nbsp;Just another good ol boy. &nbsp;Its good that you are here. &nbsp;The rest of us can learn from you. &nbsp;One day, when all of the good ol boys are gone. &nbsp;The rest of us can look back and laugh. &nbsp;Poor Ken. &nbsp;Times almost up. &nbsp;Time to take the shot gun out of the back of your pick up, let your wife buy some shoes, and take down the rebel flag.


----------



## SxyPrincess

I remember many years ago, growing up in Botswana, my parents gave me an elephant named &quot;Dumbo.&quot; &nbsp;That grey monster would stand on his head, twirl on one leg and jump through rings of fire. &nbsp;No, I never taught him this...just so happened it was passed down...genetics I guess. 

So, I move to the states and bring &quot;Dumbo&quot; with me. &nbsp;One day, the owner of Cole Bros. saw me riding &quot;Dumbo&quot; down Rt. 5. &nbsp;He really liked &quot;Dumbo&quot; and even though it broke my heart to let him go, I sold &quot;Dumbo&quot; to that nice man. &nbsp;

Please don't ban the circus from St. Mary's county---that is the only time I get to see &quot;Dumbo.&quot; &nbsp;I can't have my heart broken again! &nbsp;


----------



## Christy




----------



## missi1013

The sh*t
's flying now! &nbsp;


----------



## mark

Jimmy,

I never said that I was an activist, I read the post by Animal Lover... and i thought that as so many of you were arguing with AL whether or not the abuse that the circus carries out is true, I would let you know what it is really like..

and I did try and report the abuse but nothing was done....

I am just trying to let you all know that AL is correct and that the circus really does abuse and horiffically beat the animals.. why do we want to support that


----------



## spinner

Why don't you all just take this out to the playground after school? I agree with Mark and AI, there is more to the circus than the glitz and the glamor you see and some of it isn't pretty. Now as entertaining as you all are I have more important things to do. Fight nice!


----------



## jlabsher

I think that animal rights activists who try to force their opinions on others are wrong. Dead and simple. &nbsp;Let me go to the circus and eat ribs in front of vegans while I'm doing it. &nbsp;The rest can move to Montgomery County with all the other fun killing liberals (who tried to outlaw smoking at home!) &nbsp;Since SOMD is rural as has been evidenced by the recent fight in St Marys county board, I think those who would appreciate a circus outweigh the vocal minority who wouldn't. &nbsp;They understand that humans and animals are different, we should treat them good, but not to our detriment. I have smacked my dog when she snapped at my child, but I also have hugged her 5 minutes later, should I be considered evil?

I don't think animal abuse happens very often in circuses, you can train them easier with positive reinforcement. &nbsp;People also beat kids and old folks, there are bad apples in every bunch. &nbsp;The animal rights people should move to Oregon and live in a commune, eat berries and starve in the winter, if they don't freeze from wearing only natural fibers. &nbsp;Oh they can't grow cotton because it would upset the environment. &nbsp;Common sense is what is called for, not extremism.


----------



## Christy

Oh Dear AL, me thinks you have opened yourself up for the full wrath of Ken!  &nbsp;You may have wanted to do a little asking around about his background before guessing. &nbsp;You are so in for it now! &nbsp; &nbsp;

Silly girl!


----------



## ShellyCW

I can't say that all the wrangling has changed my opinion of the circus.  I still won't go--clown buggery, animal abuse, and expensive food, oh my.  

I think this thread has been more entertaining than any circus.  We could cancel the circus and put somd.com posters in a ring. :stooges: Then everybody's happy!


----------



## Sharon

> ShellyCW on 3:53 pm on April 23, 2002[br]
> I think this thread has been more entertaining than any circus.  We could cancel the circus and put somd.com posters in a ring. :stooges: Then everybody's happy!



ROTFLMAO--Now that might be worth watching!   Every time I get bored I come back here to read the latest ruckus!


----------



## BL

Jlabsher,

I agree with you 100%. &nbsp;You have to remember you are dealing with some real idiots here, or shall I say “liberals”. &nbsp;They believe in the government totally controlling us because we are to stupid to figure anything out ourselves. &nbsp;These people are such hypocrites they will probably go to the circus anyway.. &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

&quot;Clown buggery&quot;  &nbsp;And I'm STILL not going to the circus, either. &nbsp;But I might go for the somd.com forum pay-per-view.

And, Ken, I'm sure you have a few choice words for AL and Mark, who insulted every one of us with his &quot;inbred&quot; comments. &nbsp;If you would try to keep the language at a minimum, it would be appreciated.


----------



## BL

AL,

Typical liberal you are. &nbsp;Let’s shut down the circus because you’re not happy. &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## BL

AL,

As far as your stupid statement at the end of your posts. &nbsp;You are going to sit here and tell me that you have never eaten any meat or worn any close made out of any kind of animal. &nbsp;I doubt it. &nbsp;So once again you are a typical liberal or shall I say hypocrite. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## Larry Gude

I find the deep emotions for animals rather interesting. 

On the one hand we have allegations of criminal behavior that must, MUST result in a circus being eliminated. I neither see nor hear anything regarding making it, the circus, acceptable and a responsible follower of sound rules. Certainly that is because one side sees animal captivity, in any form, as anathema, yes? 

Put simply, is it unacceptable to the anti circus folks to have a circus, with animals doing tricks, in any form, including stringent rules for animal treatment?

On the other hand, the romanticism of wild life is interesting to. I would guess that it's great being the king of the jungle or an elephant, IE, one of the larger creatures. Being a smaller critter is probably tougher. 

Some of the most heartbreaking footage I have ever seen, after human suffering of course, was of a pack of hyenas systematically distracting a wild boar as she tried to ferry her young from one hiding place to another. They got all but one. Ah, nature. 

Another one was the obvious longing a herd of elephants did when they lost a member to disease. They constantly looked for her. I think the film guys said they keep this up for months and will recognize the remains forever. 

Mega death due to severe drought is pretty difficult to watch to. The young always go first. 

I wanted to kill those hyenas, right up until the part where, in a later segment, the same pack messed with a lion. He ran the mother down and mauled her like a rag doll. Just snapped her neck and left her to rot. Just another day in paradise. &nbsp;

Point being, it is not impossible to imagine an animal suffering and being conscious of it to some point. It is also very easy for me to see many animals as having it pretty good in a circus. 

Rodeos are noted for taking excellent care of their animals. So again, is it simply unacceptable, no matter what, or, given good care, health, exercise feeding and all, is it OK to have animals living under mans control?

I'd hate to feel compelled to get rid of all the chew toys and tell the cats to hit the bricks. &nbsp;Or worse, they kick me out of their house...


----------



## jimmy

God...again with the Liberal bashing...and you all wonder why I get so defensive on these forums. She doesn't speak for all liberals. And, by YOUR arguement, BL, they should go to, Montgomery County with the...how did you say it...&quot;Fun-sucking-liberals&quot;...then, you blast them with the hypocritical statement that they are doing this because THEY don't like it. They could turn around to you and say &quot;well, just because you LIKE IT doesn't make it right...let's keep this going just because YOU LIKE IT. and you'd be right where you THINK they are....try coming up with an arguement that uses facts and reasons instead of just spewing anti-liberal sentiment in an arguement where THIS liberal AGREES with you....


----------



## otter

Oh wow..clown buggery, smibs, liberals, repubs, squirrel gravy...This thread has become the collective...


----------



## Larry Gude

Just out of curiosity...

Anyone know if the clown was Catholic or not? 

...&quot;Pastor! Pastor! What's with the elephant???&quot;...


----------



## BudoPo

I'm going to be very frank here. &nbsp;I'm not trying single anyone out; I'm addressing the entire membership of this forum (including myself).

I'm not too surprised by the way this thread has run. &nbsp;I joined this forum fairly recently, and have found that personal attacks, name calling, and sterotyping is very common. &nbsp;I've been on several other forums (for various fields of interest of mine) and I've rarely seen it to this extent. &nbsp;It seems at times that people are more interested in bashing others than in discussing the topic of a particular thread.

There have been some threads with good discussions of interesting topics, where people presented their views with a polite tone. &nbsp;I think we all (myself included) need to think before we type. &nbsp;Even if we are well intentioned, it's very easy for the typed word to be taken in a manner other than it was intended. &nbsp;I've seen this happen to myself and others on various forums.

I'm a non-Christian Democrat with moderately liberal tendancies, from a big city, so often my views are different than many of the people on this forum. &nbsp;I usually respect other people's views and try to see things their way, even if I may not agree with them. &nbsp;If I think a person is a complete moron, I don't post it, as if I were talking to the person face to face.

Stereotyping is another thing that leads to this nastiness. &nbsp;Saying things like, &quot;you're a liberal, and therefore an idiot&quot; or &quot;you're a Republican, and therefore a hypocrite&quot; does not help get your point across, and in fact paints you in a bad light (by the way, feel free to swap liberal and Republican in that example - liberals can be hypocrites just as easily as Republicans can be idiots). &nbsp;There are as many opinions on this website as there are members, so sterotyping is uncalled for.

OK, I've spoken my mind.


----------



## Christy

BudoPro, Oh Puh Lease! &nbsp; &nbsp;If I wanted polite, I'd go spend the day chitty chatting with my mother over flowers!  &nbsp;If everyone were to be polite to me on these forums I'd be nodding off from the shear boredom of it all! &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

Okay, I’ll attempt to do this in an orderly manner since so much has gone on since my last post.

First Cariblue,

Milk information, just do a little search for “milk production” and you can find sites such as http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/biosynthesis.html it is just a school so you might not find the data up to PETA standards.  I like Dogpile to search with because it hits several engines at once.

Next Sxy,

We might disagree at times but I so loved your input.  Timely and it lit up my heart.  Thank ya girl for shedding the obvious light upon some.  

Vraiblonde,

“If you would try to keep the language at a minimum, it would be appreciated.”  What the hell does that mean?    You know this old ignorant redneck doesn’t know what these citified folk are talking about.  Even though I have no problem placing my words in correct grammatical position, spell properly, and research what I talk about before putting my foot deep within my mouth.  Unlike some.  

Now to my two new friends of limited mental capacity.  

Those that have chosen to bring heritage, threats, insults and other juvenile ploys into a discussion about a circus.  Your methodology of discussion is equivalent to your ability to comprehend that you are doing no good whatsoever.  You shout that the circuses are abusing the animals and that we shouldn’t support them.  You do not cite with any specificity were the operators have been convicted of anything.  One clown was charged with a criminal act, but can you show the nexus between that act and what it is you and PETA protest?  

Next, if you were sincere in your approach you would have been acting well before this became sanctioned by the county and attempted your informing of the people that can control this activity.  You aren’t activists you are reactionaries.  Those that decide with the heart and not the head.

Throughout this all I have said, other then the bantering with you, is that I will support the circus because I see that they need the money just to offer the opportunity to keep these animals fed.  The boycott is what I think is a stupid idea.  However your limited mental processes are such that you shallowly only saw dissention and attacked. 

Now to each of you independently,

Mark,

You tired of me?  Get a life, I‘ve been here for quite a few years and some little “dweeb” like you won’t chase me off.  Don’t think I was born here either, granted I have spent a lot of time here and plan on being here for quite a few more years so you might as well get use to it.  Probably have more of the world under my belt then you can imagine, probably have a higher IQ then you realize also (I know mine, do you even know yours?) and my folks of are a caliber that are beyond reproach by some little sniveling butt dragging punk like you.  Next I suppose you’ll call me out.  Come on down, boy, I’m not going anywhere.  I ain’t afraid of fighting, don’t start them but don’t run away from them either.  I’ll take my teeth out before we start.


Animal Lover,

What can I say about you.  You want to explain something to me?  Try, go ahead, it makes for some fun seeing how closed minded you are in your way of thinking.  Not to mention your approach here.  You think I don’t see your concern, well trust me I understand it fully.  My appreciation of wildlife, domestic animals and life in general are beyond your limited comprehensive capability.  You are not dealing with who you think you are. 

Someone tells Mark “screw yourself”, then I say it my way and I offend you. It appears that you have a problem with me as both phrases meant the same thing. Yeah, I know how to take care of myself, but unlike you I don’t need batteries and plastic for satisfaction.  You probably use more then one at the same time.  And as far as opinions, is it your contention that I can’t speak out about your opinion?  Sounds somewhat hypocritical for a supposedly educated person.    

Your description of me wasn’t very close.  You can ask as some of the posters have met me and know for sure that I am far from bald, hair on my extremities is minimal, I dress well and typically have my shirt tucked in.  Who have you been hanging with?  Yeah, I love hunting, but not a single trophy hangs on my walls.  Why take an old buck when a young one is so much better to eat.  If it bothers you that I eat meat get over it, I’m not by myself.  I also like the wild game, my kills are clean and I use what I take and only take what I will use.  Deer meat is leaner so it is obviously healthier, at least my doctor prefers that I eat it.  And guess what, I did all the work to get it to.  Please, if you can, make that wrong?  

Republican, nope.  Registered Democrat, with a mind of my own.  Yeah I know a strange concept isn’t it?  And you call me ignorant.  I did vote for GW but look what the Democrats had done the previous eight years and what they were sending up.  Does that make me blind to everything he has done that I don’t agree with?  No.  There just isn’t much that has pissed me off other then the snowmobiles in Yellowstone.  I wrote a letter, did you?  Hell no, you’re a fair weather soldier.  You only fight when you can be safe and hide, like you do under your forum handle.  I stand behind my opinion and want you to know I said it.  Arrogant, yeah, ignorant, don’t think so.  Don’t drink either, boy you sure aren’t good at this are you?  I also don’t own a pickup or have a Rebel Flag.  Guess you scored about a zero, which probably indicates functioning of other areas in your logical processing.  I think who you were describing is the man of your dreams sweetheart.  The one you deserve for having such a shallow mind and heart.  

If these animals are being abused as you suggest then go to the circus get proof and have them arrested.  It’s time for you to put up or shut up.  If you had a real desire to fix the problem you would know how to go about it.  I could, can you? 

Vraiblonde, was it of suitable language for you? 



(Edited by Ken King at 7:33 pm on April 23, 2002)


(Edited by Ken King at 7:34 pm on April 23, 2002)


----------



## Christy

Hah sxy!  And you thought Ken was going to rip you a new A hole!   See, he's just a big ole pussycat!   That likes to chase squirrels! 

(Edited by Christy at 7:16 pm on April 23, 2002)


----------



## Ken King

Christy,

You ought to know I don't chase them. &nbsp;They don't move much after I see them.


----------



## Ken King

Cariblue,

Full head of hair, approaching shoulder length, full beard, albeit gray, good quantity on the chest, developing a nice ring around and over the shoulders, continuous new growth on the ears (real irritating), just not much towards the knuckles as some think I should have. &nbsp;I’m not quite an ape, but the wife sure likes snuggling me and running her hands through my hair.


----------



## vraiblonde

Now see, Ken? &nbsp;Doesn't it feel good to offer up a reasonable, mature response rather than just blasting someone? &nbsp;Don't you feel good about yourself? &nbsp;Hell, Mark had to call me an idiot and stupid several times before I told him to screw himself. &nbsp;Self-control is what separates man from animals.  

Jimmy and Cariblue, tomorrow I'm going to start a new thread and tell you why there is so much liberal bashing going on, not just in here, but all over the US. &nbsp;And apparently they're getting sick of liberalism in France, too, if you can believe that.

Barbra, sorry you're sick but glad you had something to keep you amused!


----------



## Ken King

Vraiblonde,

No, it doesn't feel all that good. &nbsp;But I didn't want another feral cat thing going on, plus a wise blonde (unreal huh) once told me it is better to be nice to idiots, they go away quicker. &nbsp;BTW I am starting a new PETA organization. &nbsp;My PETA is People Eating Tasty Animals. &nbsp;


----------



## RoseRed

> Ken King on 7:15 am on April 24, 2002[br] BTW I am starting a new PETA organization.  My PETA is People Eating Tasty Animals.




Good one Ken!!! &nbsp;


----------



## BL

Jimmy,

The facts are these: &nbsp;1) &nbsp;There was never any facts presented on this topic that convinced me, or it appears anyone else that these animals are being abused. &nbsp;2) &nbsp;Instead of trying to boycott the circus why doesn’t AL or Mark come up with some evidence and a plan and try and stop the abuse instead of bitching about it on here. &nbsp;Obviously they have not found any confirmation about the abuse or they would have already done this and we would not be talking about it anymore. &nbsp;3) &nbsp;No one on this thread condones animals being abused!

The reason I get disgusted with liberals is because of discussions like this one. &nbsp;Liberals claim to be for the working class or lower class but instead they choice animals over human beings, a bit hypocritical if you ask me. &nbsp;One example of this is drilling for oil in various parts of the U.S. &nbsp;Instead of drilling in lets say, we will use Alaska as an example, all of the animal lovers and tree huggers stop it because it might hurt the animals or ruin the environment, which is not true. &nbsp;Instead of lowering the price of gas, creating jobs fore more people and putting money into the economy they are hindering the economy and the working class people by doing this and they just don’t see what they are doing, or maybe they do and that makes it worse. &nbsp;It is this kind of thinking that many people are getting sick of. &nbsp;If this offends you I guess you are embarrassed to be a liberal and I can not help you. I just called a spade a spade.


----------



## BL

cariblue,

Of course you do. &nbsp;You are probably offended by everything that is why this country is falling apart, because of people like you.


----------



## SxyPrincess

Wow---I'm in shock from Ken's response! &nbsp;

Can I join the new PETA??? &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## jimmy

BL,

Ok. This &quot;offended by everything&quot; crap is gonna stop right now. I am probably the HARDEST person to offend on this board. &nbsp;Just as every Conservative isn't a bible toting fundamentalist, neither is every liberal a bleeding heart. I hate overtly political correctness and I think that many of these causy-liberal-types are grasping at straws trying to find SOMETHING to focus on and rebel against. These damn protests in DC about US support for the Colombian government. How many of them got all their info off of some news letter placed on their car along side a flier for the next time the Phish cover band is coming to town? Many of these kids, and lord knows I went to school with them, take this crap WAY too far much in the same way ultra-rightests take their moral agendas. I'm agianst EXTREMISM on either side. I just see it more often on these boards coming from the right and I react accordingly. &nbsp;HOWEVER---look here. We're on a board with some causy, do-nothing, &quot;activist reactionaries&quot; and I'm on the same side as you. 
I think for myself. I don't subscribe to every liberal belief or each passing fad. I call myself a liberal because I am for social reform, freedom, general goodwill towards your fellow man. &nbsp;But don't mistake my politics for the ones Rush and Jerry and Pat are crusading against. &nbsp;Take some time, do some research and find out where someone is coming from before you lash out and accuse someone of being ashamed to be who they are. &nbsp;You're doing yourself, and your cause, a disservice by not doing so.


----------



## Ken King

Sxy,

Sure you can join but you have to wear a thong made from animal skin.


----------



## SxyPrincess

Not a problem, Ken, just as long as you where your &quot;zebra&quot; speedos!


----------



## Ken King

Normally I am more &quot;natural&quot; but for you, okay.


----------



## SxyPrincess

Christy, 

You must join us and wear your green butt floss! &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

Look now - you all (Jimmy and BL) are messing up my future thread about why liberals get bashed.

Did you all notice that I've got over 1,000 posts on this board!?! &nbsp;It's embarrassing. &nbsp;I'm going to request my Forum Junkie status be replaced with &quot;No Life Loser&quot; and post under a different name. &nbsp;It'll be nice to be a Newbie again...or maybe I should just try for 2,000? &nbsp;Whaddaya think, folks? &nbsp;Go for the gold or start over?


----------



## Ken King

Cariblue,

What do you mean by around here? &nbsp;I know there is a camp up around Crownsville that caters to those of free spirit. &nbsp;If you would like I can get you the data and send it via messenger. &nbsp;For a more private scene, a boat and some of the shorelines have beaches were you can get away with it a little, just got to be careful and don't do it anywhere on this side of the bay from Point No Point to Cedar Point as there are some high power cameras along the coast.


----------



## Ken King

vraiblonde,

Just go for the higher number, you already post under two names, three would make me think you have a multiple personality disorder. &nbsp;I wish the number of posts from the old forum carried over, some of us would be over 2,000.


----------



## Ken King

Cariblue,

Watch that old sun, as it will turn velvety skin into that of a lizard.  But then you could always work at the CIRCUS.  

Seriously, I just recent had some melanoma removed from my back so be careful.  If you are still interested you need to find someone that has a nice chunk of property that you can borrow. &nbsp;


----------



## vraiblonde

Yeah, but my other screen name doesn't count because I hardly ever post under it. &nbsp;I'd be sorry to give up Vraiblonde - then how would I know when I'm winning an argument? &nbsp;(&quot;You MUST be blonde...&quot


----------



## vraiblonde

Jimmy sez 





> This &quot;offended by everything&quot; crap is gonna stop right now.


There you go with those liberal control issues again


----------



## Ken King

Vraiblonde,

Regardless of the name you use we would KNOW that you are blonde.


----------



## BL

Jimmy,

Your point is taken. &nbsp;I have read some of your previous post and know were you stand. &nbsp;I was attacking the thought processes of the extreme left. &nbsp;You can call it stereotyping or whatever you want. &nbsp;I don’t care. &nbsp;Like I said before if the truth hurts these people maybe they should reconsider their position. &nbsp;Did they ever take in consideration that the circus folk have to make money to put food on the table for their families, or is it, &nbsp;“just screw them too”. &nbsp; &nbsp;


----------



## jimmy

I don't think the question here is about the circus making money or not. &nbsp;Frankly, if someone is making money off of something that is wrong, even if they are putting food on the table, it's wrong and should be stopped. I mean, a drug dealer makes money but what he's doing is wrong. It's also illegal but I think that's the direction that people like AL are trying to take the circus so don't tell me that it's not the same. My arugement against what AL is trying to do, however, is that we're just supposed to take her word and carny-mark's word that all this abuse is going on, everyone knows it, and no one is doing anything about it. I say, invesitgate it to be sure, and if they find abuse, then I don't care how many starving clown's children there are. It's wrong to abuse an animal. But until that is proven to be the case, boycotting the circus isn't the answer.


----------



## BL

> BL on 8:44 am on April 24, 2002[br]Jimmy,
> 
> The facts are these:  1)  There was never any facts presented on this topic that convinced me, or it appears anyone else that these animals are being abused.  2)  Instead of trying to boycott the circus why doesn’t AL or Mark come up with some evidence and a plan and try and stop the abuse instead of bitching about it on here.  Obviously they have not found any confirmation about the abuse or they would have already done this and we would not be talking about it anymore.  3)  No one on this thread condones animals being abused!
> 
> 
> Hey jimmy,
> Your last post sounds familiar


----------



## mark

Ken et al…

Let me start of my saying, I am not going to get into this verbal bashing anymore, this is about the circus and the abuse of animals, so I have tried to present some of the facts… please take some time to read them and then you can make up your own mind whether or not you think that circuses are good places for animals to be, and whether or not you want to support that…

Animals used in circuses live a dismal life of domination, confinement, and violent training. It is standard practice to beat, shock, and whip them to make them perform ridiculous tricks that they cannot comprehend.

Most elephants used by circuses were captured in the wild. Once removed from their families and natural habitat, their lives consist of little more than chains and intimidation. Baby elephants born in breeding farms are torn from their mothers, tied with ropes, and kept in isolation until they learn to fear their trainers.

Big cats, bears, and primates are forced to eat, drink, sleep, defecate, and urinate in the same cramped cages.

Elephants often suffer crippling injuries from constant chaining and performing physically difficult tricks.

 The circus deprives animals of their basic needs to exercise, roam, socialize, forage, and play. Stereotypic behaviors such as swaying back and forth, head-bobbing, pacing, bar-biting, and self-mutilation are common signs of mental distress.

Using dangerous animals in performances jeopardizes public safety and often puts children at greatest risk. Since 1990, 57 people have been killed and more than 120 seriously injured by captive elephants.

Animals in circuses are hauled around the country in poorly ventilated trailers and boxcars for up to 50 weeks a year in all kinds of extreme weather conditions. Access to the basic necessities of food, water, and veterinary care is often inadequate.

A growing number of cities are restricting or banning the use of animals in entertainment. 

For example…..here are just some of the cities that have outlawed animals in the circus: Pasedena CA, Stamford CN, Hollywood FL, Quincy MA, Takoma Park MD, Estes Park CO, Redmond WA and Revere MA, to name but a few

According to congressional testimony provided by former Beatty-Cole elephant keeper Tom Rider, “In White Plains, N.Y., when Pete did not perform her act properly, she was taken to the tent and laid down, and five trainers beat her with bullhooks. PETE IS NOW DEAD.”

The bullhook is a tool used to punish and control elephants. It is also called an ankus, elephant goad, or elephant hook. The handle is made of wood, metal, plastic, or fiberglass, and there is a sharp steel hook at one end. Its shape resembles a boat hook or fireplace poker. Some bullhooks have long, &quot;shepherd’s crook&quot; cane-style handles, allowing the trainer a firmer grip so that greater force can be exerted while pulling and yanking the hook deeper into the elephant’s flesh. 

Both ends inflict damage. The trainer uses the hook to apply varying degrees of pressure to sensitive spots on the elephant’s body (see diagram), causing the elephant to move away from the source of discomfort. Holding the hooked end, the handle is swung like a baseball bat and induces substantial pain when the elephant is struck on the wrist, ankle, and other areas where there is little tissue between skin and bone. 

The thickness of an elephant’s skin ranges from one inch across the back and hindquarters to paper-thin around the mouth and eyes, inside the ears, and at the anus. Their skin appears deceptively tough, but in reality it is so delicate that an elephant can feel the pain of an insect bite. A bullhook can easily inflict pain and injury on an elephant’s sensitive skin. Trainers often embed the hook in the soft tissue behind the ears, inside the ear or mouth, in and around the anus, and in tender spots under the chin and around the feet.

While performing in the ring, an elephant responds to verbal commands from a trainer carrying a bullhook and moderate pressure from the bullhook because the elephant has been conditioned through violent training sessions that refusal to obey in the ring will result in severe punishment later. Moments before entering the ring, while out of view of the public, trainers may give the elephants a few painful whacks to remind them who's boss and ensure that the elephants perform the specified tricks on command.

Because a dispirited elephant submits to a dominant trainer toting a bullhook, circuses mislead the public with spurious claims that a bullhook is only used to guide or cue an elephant. The difficult tricks that elephants are forced to perform place a great deal of stress on their muscles and joints. They are physically strenuous and no elephant would perform these grotesquely exaggerated maneuvers on command, over and over, hundreds of times a year without the constant threat of punishment. In the wild, an adult elephant would lie down in slow, gradual movements no more than once or twice per day. A typical circus act requires that they lie down and rise very quickly several times in a single show. If it were possible for an elephant to simply be &quot;guided&quot; to perform rapid successions of headstands, hind-leg stands, lying down, tub-sitting, crawling, and twirling, the trainer would be carrying a soft, cotton wand, not a hard, pointed object

That’s the facts……make your own mind up….


----------



## jlabsher

Wow, Mark was that stolen verbatum from PETA? &nbsp;Here is stolen verbatum from Cole Brothers Circus website:

The management, staff and performers of Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. consider our animals and their welfare central to the life of our entire traveling community.

We treat our animals with respect and kindness, adhering to strict standards for housing, feeding, watering, training, exercising, and performing with animals. &nbsp;The Circus provides a safe and wholesome environment for the animals, circus personnel and their families, and the patrons who attend our performances.

Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus possesses a license to exhibit animals issued by the United States Department of Agriculture, which regulates and monitors licensees to ensure the humane treatment of performaing animals in accordance with the federal Animal Welfare Act.

We increase the body of knowledge about animals by working with them. &nbsp;Furthermore, we expand public awareness and appreciation of endangered species through our performances, educational materials and outreach, and participation in captive breeding programs to preserve endangered species from extinction. &nbsp;We appreciate the support of millions of Americans, who attend our performances, praise our animal care, and encourage us to continue presenting animals in the circus.

Let the facts be known.


----------



## Ken King

Mark,

If you have specific evidence that this is being done why haven't the operators of this circus been legally stopped? &nbsp;Obviously you don't or the fact is that they aren't breaking the current laws.

You can regurgitate all the PETA information you want (which is filled with speculation and innuendo and not much fact) but until such time as the circus is in violation of the law they have the right to conduct business in accordance with the issued permits.

What you have failed to realize is that because you see it as wrong does not make it illegal. &nbsp;We are a nation that has laws and until such time as new laws are crafted you are just whistling in the wind.

As I said earlier, put up or shut up, find out if they are in violation and report them. &nbsp;You might have to purchase a ticket though to get in.


----------



## vraiblonde

God knows I hate to agree with Mark after he was so mean but he's right. &nbsp;Everything I've ever read or heard about training circus animals is described just about how Mark put it up. &nbsp;That's why I don't go.

To be honest, there's really no other way to train a large animal, not to mention a predator, than to establish dominance over it. &nbsp;And typically dominance is established through discomfort, because that's all the animal really understands - comfort vs. discomfort. &nbsp;It's not like a dog that is domesticated enough be uncomfortable when you yell at it - larger animals and predators need a more aggressive stimulus.

So it's unrealistic to say protest for better treatment of the animals - there's no other way to train them, really, than the methods currently used.

I meant what I said, though, about them being in just about the same (arguably better) straights at the circus as they are in the wild. &nbsp;Life expectancy for animals in captivity is almost ALWAYS longer than animals in the wild. &nbsp;Infants survive in greater numbers in captivity as well. &nbsp;Look it up on the Internet if you don't believe me - the only sites that say animals do better in the wild are run by activists, not scientists or animal behavior experts.

And I don't want to hear about how it's not &quot;natural&quot; for bears to dance on their hind legs. &nbsp;It's not &quot;natural&quot; for my cats to eat out of a bowl and have their crunchies handed to them. &nbsp;Nor is it &quot;natural&quot; for your dog to be on the end of a leash. &nbsp;And, boy, is it not &quot;natural&quot; for fish to swim in a bowl.

So those of you who enjoy the circus, go and have fun. &nbsp;Those who don't, stay away.

Circuses are like scrapple - you'll enjoy it more if you don't see how it's made.


----------



## Ken King

Vraiblonde,

Do you go to the county fair? &nbsp;Ever watch the horse pulls? &nbsp;Is that abuse too?


----------



## vraiblonde

To jlabsher I respond: &nbsp;well, what do you expect them to say? &nbsp;Nobody would go to a circus that says they beat their animals to get them to perform. &nbsp;How depressing.

To Ken: &nbsp;there is no current law against training animals in that method. &nbsp;There are laws that regulate the living conditions of the animals, but I think they may vary from state to state. &nbsp;Not sure about that, would have to look it up. &nbsp;I think, though, that's what AL and Mark are really shooting for - making this stuff illegal. &nbsp;And I'm not sure if I'd support that - have to think about it some more.


----------



## Ken King

I was just wondering, if some get their way the local Amish will have to buy cars and tractors.


----------



## vraiblonde

Any activity that involves taking a whip or shock prod to an animal is abusive, IMHO. &nbsp;HOWEVER...we are a little higher on the food chain so there you go. &nbsp;The day that horse can get &lt;i&gt;us&lt;/i&gt; to pull a tractor, then they'll get some say-so. &nbsp;I'm against animal testing, too, for what it's worth. &nbsp;But I certainly see the need for it in many cases. &nbsp;Again I say, it's like sausage...


----------



## Ken King

Vicos,

I think we are on their watch list. &nbsp;To another thought, anyone notice that the PETA &nbsp;complex in Virginia Beach area was built on wetlands? &nbsp;How do they justify that?


----------



## Jameo

Just a question, say the circus is closed down because of everyone boycotting, blah, blah, blah, what happens to the animals then????

a. released back in to the wild??? How long to you think they will survive before they starve to death??

b.  released to the Zoo??  Yeah, that is a MUCH nicer place!!  NOT!!  What's the difference between a zoo and a circus? The animals are standing on their heads at the zoo, besides that?

c.  Release them to Ms. Animal Lover so she can take care of the Lions and Tigers and Bears, OH MY!!!

or

d.  They are save by some resuce group of retired circus animals???  Is there such a thing??? 

I think this is pretty entertaining, along with the circus!!


----------



## Silly Girl

My goodness!! &nbsp; &nbsp; After reading this board for the last week, I just had to join. &nbsp;This is much more fun (and apparently more animal friendly) than any circus I've every been too. &nbsp;


----------



## missi1013

Welcome to the boards guys. &nbsp;Just sit back and put your seat belts on, because your in for a ride around here!


----------



## SxyPrincess

Ken, I thought you might enjoy this PETA story!

http://www.peta.org/news/NewsItem.asp?id=886


----------



## RoseRed

EWWWW!!!!! &nbsp; 

I'll stick to my store bought filet mignons! &nbsp;


----------



## Ken King

I think it is time the health department visits these folk that could be killing others by using non-inspected meat and serving it to the public. &nbsp;I wish I was in Lubbock, I would own them and take all the money the raise.


----------



## BL

Ken,

PETA sucks!


----------



## Kyle

People Eating Tasty Animals?   Sounds like a great Org!


----------



## missi1013

Road kill anyone!!


----------



## RoseRed

Ya know... I took my daughter to the circus and I didn't see one darn protester!?! &nbsp;Wassup wit dat???? &nbsp;Anyone else notice that too?


----------



## Ken King

RedRose,

I noticed that too but wasn't going to mention it.  I was planning on introducing myself.


----------



## RoseRed

You're funny! &nbsp;Did you bring your wiffle ball bat to protect yourself??? &nbsp; 

How's the new grandbaby?


----------



## Ken King

Rose Red,

No wiffle ball bat necessary as it seems it was only a &quot;phantom menace&quot;. &nbsp; These people have a voice but they don't seem to exercise it unless they are coming from the shadows. &nbsp;Good thing they had the circus in an open field, it gave them nowhere to hide.

Baby is doing fine, everyone came home on Friday. &nbsp;They stopped by yesterday and we watched the baby sleep for five hours before she got up ready to eat. &nbsp;Formula only, no cereal yet. &nbsp;


----------



## seasquirt

What, you all didn't see me with my folding lawn chair and cardboard sign? You didn't get any of my pamphlets? You didn't see my free shirts that said &quot;Just say NO to Bears on Unicycles&quot;? I have failed!!!


----------



## RoseRed

Was that you I ran over while 4 wheeling through the mud puddles??? &nbsp; 

Ken - glad the family is doing well &nbsp;


----------



## otter

bump da bump...might as well send this to the top...


----------



## Dymphna

Yes


----------



## otter

> _Originally posted by cariblue _
> *Is this resurrect dead thread day? *



You didn't get the PM???


----------



## Ehesef

Yay!  The circus will be back in town:

(Taken from the St. Mary's Today website)

Tickets for the World's Largest Circus Under the Big Top are now on sale at McKays in Lexington Park, Charlotte Hall and Leonardtown and at Mail Boxes Etc. at Wildewood. The New COLE BROS. CIRCUS is coming to town at the St. Mary's County Fairgrounds on Monday April 26th and Tuesday April 27th with two shows each day at 4:30 and 7:30 pm.

(I just wanted to stir this pot up again :teehee: )


----------



## jlabsher

Wow, this was the first thread I ever posted to, brings back memories of a quieter, more innocent time.


----------



## otter

> _Originally posted by jlabsher _
> *Wow, this was the first thread I ever posted to, brings back memories of a quieter, more innocent time. *



Steadily downhill since ya got here, eh, Jlab?? Makes ya wonder..


----------



## jlabsher

> _Originally posted by otter _
> *Steadily downhill since ya got here, eh, Jlab?? Makes ya wonder.. *



Kind of reminds me of the current administration


----------



## otter

> _Originally posted by jlabsher _
> *Kind of reminds me of the current administration *



Exactly, the freaking naysayers have undermined everything.


----------



## Christy

bump for fun.


----------



## JohnnyRebel

animal lover said:
			
		

> The Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus is coming to Leonardtown &nbsp;April 29th and 30th. #Please help to stop this from happening!
> 
> The Cole Bros. Circus has consistantly failed to meet minimum federal standards for the care of animals used in exhibition as established in the Animal Welfare Act. #:angry: # #There are more than twenty documented cases of neglect and cruelty against the circus... #Many communities have banned live animal acts, and St. Mary's County should be one of them. #
> 
> Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire.... #to force them to do these cruel acts the &quot;trainers&quot; use various tools such as whips, electric shock, muzzles and bullhooks, (to name a few). #
> 
> Please take a stand against the circus!!! #


When you move to a 1 bedroom apartment in the city then you can say something if you live in a house with any land you have took habitat away from something!!


----------



## JohnnyRebel

JohnnyRebel said:
			
		

> When you move to a 1 bedroom apartment in the city then you can say something if you live in a house with any land you have took habitat away from something!!


 BTW dont let any flying insects hit your car windsheild and watch out for crawling insects also!!!


----------



## itsbob

animal lover said:
			
		

> Obviously I am way slow on replying...
> 
> No I don't eat meat. &nbsp;After watching videos of what goes on in slaughterhouses, I don't intend to ever again. &nbsp;And to be completely honest, I have never felt better in my life.
> 
> I have visited PETA's website on many occasions. &nbsp;I don't think that they are extreme at all. &nbsp;I don't agree with everything that they stand for, but I do agree with most of it. &nbsp;Regardless, though, whatever PETA stands for or doesn't stand for or where it spends the money it receives, is beside the point. &nbsp; The POINT is still the mistreatment of animals in the circus...
> 
> Now are you gonna make that phone call or what? &nbsp; &nbsp;



I like the circus.. and I like my steak medium well, and my chicken fried.. we've been wearing furs since the beginning of time, and natural furs are better for the environment then something synthetic ANY day.. and if we lived in Korea we wouldn't have to worry about Greyhound adoptions..


----------



## JohnnyRebel

itsbob said:
			
		

> I like the circus.. and I like my steak medium well, and my chicken fried.. we've been wearing furs since the beginning of time, and natural furs are better for the environment then something synthetic ANY day.. and if we lived in Korea we wouldn't have to worry about Greyhound adoptions..


PETA is  a terrorist org in the USA they send divers down in the water during fishing tourneys to sabotage boats ,they shoot in the water next to fisherman,which btw is against the law!!


----------



## RoseRed

It's baaaack...


----------



## Chasey_Lane

RoseRed said:
			
		

> It's baaaack...


It is about that time, isn't it...


----------



## Mikeinsmd

RoseRed said:
			
		

> It's baaaack...


Let the PETA bashing begin!!!


----------



## Railroad

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Let the PETA bashing begin!!!


Buncha tree-hugging, bleeding-heart, Jane Fonda-school-of-commonsense, Al Gorelicks!  

How's that?

PETA?  I don't mind PETA.  Put some sour cream, feta cheese, grilled veal, and garlic and tomato in there, it's not bad.


----------



## Sharon

Chasey_Lane said:


> It is about that time, isn't it...


If you say so.


----------



## Jameo




----------



## RoseRed

Sharon said:


> If you say so.



You are so bad!


----------



## kwillia

animal lover said:


> Hey Ken. &nbsp;I'm so impressed. &nbsp;Thanks for playing. &nbsp;Bye bye!! &nbsp;
> 
> Have a nice day! &nbsp;





Ken King said:


> Playing, so none of what you posted was serious. &nbsp;Typical idiotic behavior. &nbsp;BTW were you making an offer with your emoticon or are you waiting for a Clydsedale?



Oh my...


----------



## aps45819

animal lover said:


> Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire.... #to force them to do these cruel acts the "trainers" use various tools such as whips, electric shock, muzzles and bullhooks, (to name a few). # #



Sounds like the stuff I do at work. It sucks for both them and me :shrug:

Change "trainer" to "supervisor" and it sound like a typical day at the office


----------



## kwillia

BudoPo said:


> I'm going to be very frank here. &nbsp;I'm not trying single anyone out; I'm addressing the entire membership of this forum (including myself).
> 
> I'm not too surprised by the way this thread has run. &nbsp;I joined this forum fairly recently, and have found that personal attacks, name calling, and sterotyping is very common. &nbsp;I've been on several other forums (for various fields of interest of mine) and I've rarely seen it to this extent. &nbsp;It seems at times that people are more interested in bashing others than in discussing the topic of a particular thread.
> 
> There have been some threads with good discussions of interesting topics, where people presented their views with a polite tone. &nbsp;I think we all (myself included) need to think before we type. &nbsp;Even if we are well intentioned, it's very easy for the typed word to be taken in a manner other than it was intended. &nbsp;I've seen this happen to myself and others on various forums.
> 
> I'm a non-Christian Democrat with moderately liberal tendancies, from a big city, so often my views are different than many of the people on this forum. &nbsp;I usually respect other people's views and try to see things their way, even if I may not agree with them. &nbsp;If I think a person is a complete moron, I don't post it, as if I were talking to the person face to face.
> 
> Stereotyping is another thing that leads to this nastiness. &nbsp;Saying things like, &quot;you're a liberal, and therefore an idiot&quot; or &quot;you're a Republican, and therefore a hypocrite&quot; does not help get your point across, and in fact paints you in a bad light (by the way, feel free to swap liberal and Republican in that example - liberals can be hypocrites just as easily as Republicans can be idiots). &nbsp;There are as many opinions on this website as there are members, so sterotyping is uncalled for.
> 
> OK, I've spoken my mind.





Christy said:


> BudoPro, Oh Puh Lease! &nbsp; &nbsp;If I wanted polite, I'd go spend the day chitty chatting with my mother over flowers!  &nbsp;If everyone were to be polite to me on these forums I'd be nodding off from the shear boredom of it all! &nbsp; &nbsp;



You go, gurl!


----------



## Chasey_Lane

kwillia said:


> Botswana...


----------



## RoseRed

Cole Brother's will be back on the 27th and 28th of April.


----------



## 4d2008

well this thread looked like fun.


----------



## Fishn Guy

Man, this would have been awesome... I miss out on all the good stuff..


----------



## frequentflier

RoseRed said:


> Cole Brother's will be back on the 27th and 28th of April.


----------



## tiltedangel

animal lover said:


> The Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus is coming to Leonardtown &nbsp;April 29th and 30th. #Please help to stop this from happening!
> 
> The Cole Bros. Circus has consistantly failed to meet minimum federal standards for the care of animals used in exhibition as established in the Animal Welfare Act. #:angry: # #There are more than twenty documented cases of neglect and cruelty against the circus... #Many communities have banned live animal acts, and St. Mary's County should be one of them. #
> 
> Animals do not naturally ride bicycles, stand on their heads, balance on balls, or jump through rings of fire.... #to force them to do these cruel acts the &quot;trainers&quot; use various tools such as whips, electric shock, muzzles and bullhooks, (to name a few). #
> 
> Please take a stand against the circus!!! #




BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!

Not all animals are abused as you say...and the circus is that is coming doesn't have the elephants and things anymore they have not had in years because of people that put up things like this post...and have nothing better to do with their time...I hate groups that think of idiotic things to protest! get a freakin life!


----------



## hotmomma

Does anyone know how long the circus lasts?  Thinking of going to 7:30 tonight and just wanna know what time to expect to get home if I went.


----------



## citizen_fear

hotmomma said:


> Does anyone know how long the circus lasts?  Thinking of going to 7:30 tonight and just wanna know what time to expect to get home if I went.



Guess that would depend on where you live, how fast you drive, how much traffic is on the road and uh, what time you get home??????


----------



## citizen_fear

hotmomma said:


> Does anyone know how long the circus lasts?  Thinking of going to 7:30 tonight and just wanna know what time to expect to get home if I went.



No, I dont know


----------



## Elle

hotmomma said:


> Does anyone know how long the circus lasts?  Thinking of going to 7:30 tonight and just wanna know what time to expect to get home if I went.



Last night the 7:30 show started late (well maybe it was right on time for them but it was 7:45 according to the clock on my phone) and wasn't over until 9:30.  

If you spend the money to get reserved or vip tickets - section K sucked to no end - J & L were only slightly better - at the end of the rings so no better views than General Admission plus there are props in theway the first 1/4 of the show and right before the elephants came out they raised the cannon ball net so it blocked the view.


----------



## Elle

tiltedangel said:


> BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!
> 
> Not all animals are abused as you say...and the circus is that is coming doesn't have the elephants and things anymore they have not had in years because of people that put up things like this post...and have nothing better to do with their time...I hate groups that think of idiotic things to protest! get a freakin life!



Actually they do and you can ride the elephants before the show for $8 a person.  They also have camels and miniature horses (also available for rides before the show and during the breaks for $5/person).  There were also dogs, don't remember seeing the house cats like in the past but refer to my previous post about my obscured view..


----------



## hotmomma

citizen_fear said:


> Guess that would depend on where you live, how fast you drive, how much traffic is on the road and uh, what time you get home??????



All I was asking is how long the circus lasts and why I wanted to know.  I know you don't know how long it takes me to get home


----------



## citizen_fear

hotmomma said:


> All I was asking is how long the circus lasts and why I wanted to know.  I know you don't know how long it takes me to get home


----------



## EmptyTimCup

this needs bumped again .... its been awhile


----------



## Merlin99

EmptyTimCup said:


> this needs bumped again .... its been awhile



I thought so, that's why I did it the day before.
http://forums.somd.com/4576996-post6.html


----------



## Mongo53

cattitude said:


> Cariblue, that's what I thought. &nbsp;Doesn't PETA and other organizations keep a pretty close watch on these circuses? &nbsp;I'd like more information as well.


If the Circus is NOT breaking the Law, then there is nothing PETA can do about it, other than protest.  I don't get to shut down PETA because I don't like what they do.  Nor is it right that I break the law, rules and basic fairness trying to disrupt PETA because I don't like what they do.


----------



## kwillia

cattitude said:


> Just out of curiosity, how does Ringling Bros. stand up in the cruelty area? &nbsp;They've been advertising on TV lately about their great advances and how well they treat their animals. &nbsp;Is this just bs?


Well since you asked...

An animal rights group will pay Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus $9.3 million to settle a lawsuit the circus filed after courts found that activists paid a former circus worker for his help in claiming the circus abused elephants. 

Read more: Animal rights group settles lawsuit with Ringling - The Denver Post Animal rights group settles lawsuit with Ringling - The Denver Post 
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post


----------



## kwillia

animal lover said:


> Vrai -
> 
> You must be joking. &nbsp;Please tell me that you are not serious. &nbsp;If you are actually watching the Discovery Channel, then you must have it on mute.



Giggle.


----------



## mamatutu

kwillia said:


> Well since you asked...
> 
> An animal rights group will pay Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus $9.3 million to settle a lawsuit the circus filed after courts found that activists paid a former circus worker for his help in claiming the circus abused elephants.
> 
> Read more: Animal rights group settles lawsuit with Ringling - The Denver Post Animal rights group settles lawsuit with Ringling - The Denver Post
> Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post



What is the world coming to that even animal rights groups are corrupt.   I am glad the court found them guilty, and Ringling was found innocent of abusing the elephants.  Where is the 9.3 mil coming from; donations?


----------



## aps45819

*Breaking news*

Bacon not fun for pigs


----------



## RoseRed

The circus is coming!


----------



## vraiblonde

RoseRed said:


> The circus is coming!



Run for your lives!!


----------

