# 6 year olds carrying anti-abortion signs



## sockgirl77

I'm not posting this to discuss views on abortion. I am wondering what everyone thinks about this. As I was driving up Rt. 235 yesterday I noticed tons of people in Lex. Park holding up stop abortion signs. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and view on abortion. What bothered me was that there were quite a few kids ranging from 6-10 holding signs. Seems to me that a child this young shouldn't even know what abortion is. I just want to say shame on the churches and parents that allowed their children to stand out in the cold yesterday to support a cause that they should even know about! What do you think about this?


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## Sharon

Gimme a break  ...they learn about birth control and homosexuality in elem. school and you have a problem with this.


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## Tonio

There was a letter in the Enterprise recently that accused schools of teaching kids to be gay. Hell of a charge to make without some solid evidence. "Okay, class, first you have to loosen up your wrist so it's limp. Tomorrow, we'll work on lisping..."


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## J.South

More than anything else it was a distraction for me driving... I didnt want to run over any protesters..


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## ptbrien

*Wha????*

So they shouldn't have to learn about the consequences of their actions?


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## dustin

I saw them as well. Nickel and I were driving by and thought it was a bunch of Kerry supporters at first and then noticed their signs... that's the first demonstration I've ever witnessed in this area.

Good on them for getting out there to represent their cause


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## Katie

We saw it yesterday also, and people are entitled to their opinion. I am guessing that the 6 year old's parents were probably there, so that is why they were.


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## Tina2001aniT

Katie said:
			
		

> We saw it yesterday also, and people are entitled to their opinion. I am guessing that the 6 year old's parents were probably there, so that is why they were.


When i was a kid we did somnething similiar, we had no idea what abortion was, but knew that it was something my parents felt strongly about, I remember making the signs before we went and everything.....like i said we had NO IDEA that abortion was or was not killing babies, we just knew that it was important to our parents, therefore it was important to us.....


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## dustin

Tina2001aniT said:
			
		

> When i was a kid we did somnething similiar, we had no idea what abortion was, but knew that it was something my parents felt strongly about, I remember making the signs before we went and everything.....like i said we had NO IDEA that abortion was or was not killing babies, we just knew that it was important to our parents, therefore it was important to us.....



Yeah, the parents probably had to take the kids along, so they gave them signs to hold up so the little farts wouldnt be running around next to 235 and acting like little hooligans. Probably just givin the little buggers something to do...


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## sockgirl77

*So.....*

I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?


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## dustin

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?



nope. i think you are the only one. :shrug:


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## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?


I personally would never use my child to promote a cause I believe in but if he is aware of what it is and believes in the cause himself then I won't stop him from joining me, but the choice would be his.  And yes, he vaguely does know about abortion.


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## Tina2001aniT

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?


nope, we went to DC for the national march for life in January, so it was colder and lots more people, but like I said we werent aware of exactly what abortion was so it was pretty fun for us...we got to be in a "parade"  and spend the day in DC....


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## Sharon

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?



I think there's more wrong with this...



> I just want to say shame on the churches and parents that allowed their children to stand out in the cold yesterday ...



...when you make no mention of them being in front of a church (how do you know they were church people?) then say that the kids had to stand out in the cold yesterday. I suppose it's wrong for them to go trick or treating next week in the cold too, huh?


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## Danzig

Anyone who takes a child to an Anti or Pro Abortion Rally is idiot. Why put a child in danger just to support your cause. Find a fricking baby sitter.


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## dustin

Danzig said:
			
		

> Anyone who takes a child to an Anti or Pro Abortion Rally is idiot. Why put a child in danger just to support your cause. Find a fricking baby sitter.



From where these individuals were prostesting. It looked like they had a higher chance of being hit by a drunk driver than anything else...


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## sockgirl77

Sharon said:
			
		

> I think there's more wrong with this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...when you make no mention of them being in front of a church (how do you know they were church people?) then say that the kids had to stand out in the cold yesterday. I suppose it's wrong for them to go trick or treating next week in the cold too, huh?


i spoke with a friend of mine who goes to St. Michael's Church and he told me that they were passing flyers around asking people to come on out and support the cause. so, yes they were affiliated with the local churches.


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## sockgirl77

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> i spoke with a friend of mine who goes to St. Michael's Church and he told me that they were passing flyers around asking people to come on out and support the cause. so, yes they were affiliated with the local churches.


to add to this. there's  a huge difference between going trick or treating and freezing your butt off to support a cause that you are way too young to know about or understand.


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## espyn

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?


It's perfectly OK to parade your children across the stage at the county fair, just do not use them in side of the road protests


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## dustin

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> freezing your butt off to support a cause that you are way too young to know about or understand.



I'm sure the parents took appropriate measures to ensure their childrens' warmth. Did you happen to stop and ask a child if he or she was cold?

exactly, they are way too young to know about or understand it. So what does it matter? The parents were probably just keeping their kids busy. What little girl would want to sit and play with her barbie in a lawn chair while her mommy is holding up a big sign and waving at cars? What fun she would be missing out on!


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## sockgirl77

espyn said:
			
		

> It's perfectly OK to parade your children across the stage at the county fair, just do not use them in side of the road protests


my son is 4 months old and i didn't have him out in the cold to support a cause that he can't possibly understand. would you look at a first grader and tell them about killing babies? i sure as hell wouldn't!


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## Club'nBabySeals

> I guess nobody thinks that there is something wrong with this?




No, you're not.  

I don't think children that young have any business being at ANY such event---whether it be a rally concerning abortion, politics, etcetera.  

I remember going to a Bush rally four years ago, and one of the women that was there had brought her litter along.  These little babies were running around waving bumper stickers, regurgitating rhetoric and screaming prose at the opposing Gore supporters and I thought to myself "Geez, they have absolutely no comprehension of what they are saying, or what it means to make this choice on their own".  

I don't have a problem with people wanting to get their kids involved, or attempting to make them aware of what's going on in the world----but I DO have a problem with parents who take advantage of their children's trust without ever bothering to explain WHY they should or should not support an issue.  Unless that child can understand what they are fighting for, they are simply ignorant and brainwashed.  

We talk about the kids over in Iraq and Palestine growing up with some blind allegiance to fundamentalism because that's the way they were raised---well what's the difference between that and this situation?  In both cases children are being exposed to something they do not understand, and NO ONE is taking the time to explain the unbiased facts to them.  Likewise, even if someone did try to explain abortion to a 6 year old---do you really think they could comprehend these rammifications? 

When you go to the polls this November, will you vote for the same candidate as your parents just because they told you to?  Or will you look at your own values and opinions before casting your vote?  

I just think these kids should have the same opportunity.


(sigh---there goes my good karma...)


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## Danzig

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> to add to this. there's a huge difference between going trick or treating and freezing your butt off to support a cause that you are way too young to know about or understand.


 There is a big difference in going door to door to get candy for yourself and holding up a sign that you don’t understand for a retarded parent who never should have had a kid in the first place.


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## sockgirl77

dustin said:
			
		

> I'm sure the parents took appropriate measures to ensure their childrens' warmth. Did you happen to stop and ask a child if he or she was cold?
> 
> exactly, they are way too young to know about or understand it. So what does it matter? The parents were probably just keeping their kids busy. What little girl would want to sit and play with her barbie in a lawn chair while her mommy is holding up a big sign and waving at cars? What fun she would be missing out on!


they should  have gotten a babysitter or left them in the church daycare.


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## bresamil

Elle said:
			
		

> I personally would never use my child to promote a cause I believe in but if he is aware of what it is and believes in the cause himself then I won't stop him from joining me, but the choice would be his.  And yes, he vaguely does know about abortion.



That is my feeling also.  My 12 year old is at the right age to start thinking about issues and his stance on them.  I would not have the other 2 involved.  Also as Danzig pointed out, pro/anti choice rallies are a hotbed for violence - I probably would not have my child in harm's way.  
I don't like using children for political purposes.  I remember one year at the fair, one of the groups promoting a certain sheriff candidate rushed up and tied balloons on my children's wrists without asking.  After I reamed them about it I tried to take off the balloons, but you know kids - they want the balloon.  So I went to every other sheriff candidate group and added balloons, that way my children weren't being used to promote anyone in particular.  And I did not vote for that first candidate.


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## mAlice

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> would you look at a first grader and tell them about killing babies?



No, and I think the parents who drag small children along to protest anything, are wrong.  Any protest has the potential of becoming a dangerous situation.


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## Vince

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> to add to this. there's  a huge difference between going trick or treating and freezing your butt off to support a cause that you are way too young to know about or understand.


And how do you think these children are going to learn about it and form their own opinions (parents opinion).  And that's only until they're old enough to make an informed decision on their own.  But 9 out of 10 times they won't change their opinion.  It's like politics.  If you mother and father were Democrates, chances are you'll be a Dem.  Guess I'm the exception.  My whole family are Democrates. :ashamed:  But I turned out OK (Republican).


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## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> would you look at a first grader and tell them about killing babies? i sure as hell wouldn't!



So when he is 6 and asks you about abortion what are you going to tell him?


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## sockgirl77

Elle said:
			
		

> So when he is 6 and asks you about abortion what are you going to tell him?


flat out: son, you are too young to know about this!


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## mAlice

Elle said:
			
		

> So when he is 6 and asks you about abortion what are you going to tell him?




If a child asks, you answer.  You still don't drag a small child into a protest.  If the child is older, and asks to be included, that's another story.


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## Vince

elaine said:
			
		

> If a child asks, you answer.  You still don't drag a small child into a protest.  If the child is older, and asks to be included, that's another story.


They probably did it for lack of a sitter :shrug: .


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## sockgirl77

elaine said:
			
		

> If a child asks, you answer.  You still don't drag a small child into a protest.  If the child is older, and asks to be included, that's another story.


maybe it's because i'm a new mom. maybe it's because i was sheltered as a child. but, i cannot see myself explaining to a six year old about abortion. but, then again the world is changing.  i still don't think that small children need to know about these issues. there's no way that they are mentally capable of understanding them yet.


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## Tonio

Years ago, one of the local churches had an anti-porn protest. One of the group was a small child carrying a sign reading "Pornography Hurts Children."


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## Sharon

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> there's  a huge difference between going trick or treating and freezing your butt off to support a cause that you are way too young to know about or understand.




You don't know whether the kids understood it or not, nor do you know the ages of the children and whether they had an opinion on abortion or not.  Some elem age kids know where babies come from (maybe not graphically) so why would they not know that some people kill them before they are born?

 Temps were not freezing yesterday.


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## mAlice

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> maybe it's because i'm a new mom. maybe it's because i was sheltered as a child. but, i cannot see myself explaining to a six year old about abortion. but, then again the world is changing. by time my son is 6 there might be girls in his school pregnant. i still don't think that small children need to know about these issues. there's no way that they are mentally capable of understanding them yet.




When my daughter was six, I was forced to explain a few things (no details, just basic answers) due to the fact that a little girl she was playing with had been molested and was sharing some information.  This little girl was sharing things that she had learned due to her unfortunate incident.  Of course, I didn't know how this little girl knew until I confronted her mother about what her little girl was teaching mine.  

There will be times when you need to share more with your children than you'd like to.  Keep it simple, no details.  Short, accurate answers will be enough.  However, unless they ask there is no reason to bring it up.  Let them be children.


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## sockgirl77

Sharon said:
			
		

> You don't know whether the kids understood it or not, nor do you know the ages of the children and whether they had an opinion on abortion or not.  Some elem age kids know where babies come from (maybe not graphically) so why would they not know that some people kill them before they are born?
> 
> Temps were not freezing yesterday.


no, i don' t know the exact ages of the children, but i got pretty good looks at them and most of them were between the ages of 6-10. no, it may not have been freezing but it was cold.


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## mAlice

Vince said:
			
		

> They probably did it for lack of a sitter :shrug: .




There have been many things I've not done due to not having a sitter.  I got over it.


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## sockgirl77

elaine said:
			
		

> There have been many things I've not done due to not having a sitter.  I got over it.


  plus, they were supporting it for their church. the churches have daycares


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## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> the churches have daycares


Mine doesn't


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## pixiegirl

elaine said:
			
		

> When my daughter was six, I was forced to explain a few things (no details, just basic answers) due to the fact that a little girl she was playing with had been molested and was sharing some information.  This little girl was sharing things that she had learned due to her unfortunate incident.  Of course, I didn't know how this little girl knew until I confronted her mother about what her little girl was teaching mine.
> 
> There will be times when you need to share more with your children than you'd like to.  Keep it simple, no details.  Short, accurate answers will be enough.  However, unless they ask there is no reason to bring it up.  Let them be children.




I have to agree.  I think my first instinct would be to wonder where in the hell my kid heard about such things at that age and seek out the initial source.  I would explain things to them in a way a they could understand but would keep the details down to a minimum.


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## Danzig

elaine said:
			
		

> When my daughter was six, ........ Let them be children.


For once I found a reason to give you good karma.
and I get
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to elaine again.


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## mAlice

Danzig said:
			
		

> For once I found a reason to give you good karma.
> and I get
> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to elaine again.




If you hadn't jumped to conclusions and assumed I gave you bad karma the other day, you wouldn't have gotten that message.


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## sockgirl77

Elle said:
			
		

> Mine doesn't


sorry, i assumed that they all did. the one that i went to did. however, if one feels the need to support a cause they can find someone to take care of their children for the few hours that they decide to spend walking up and down sidewalks. i am under the understanding that this "walk" was planned for awhile, so the parents had plenty of time to find someone to take care of their little ones.


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## dustin

If I was in that protest, and I couldnt find a sitter, then I would have brought my kids along.

Now if the protest was in DC there is no way I would take them with me.


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## Christy

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> sorry, i assumed that they all did. the one that i went to did. however, if one feels the need to support a cause they can find someone to take care of their children for the few hours that they decide to spend walking up and down sidewalks. i am under the understanding that this "walk" was planned for awhile, so the parents had plenty of time to find someone to take care of their little ones.


Personally, I think you need to get a life and worry about your own kids instead of everyone else's.   Who are you to say what cause a parent should or should not get their children involved in? 

You've got kids being strolled around for walks/benefits to fight cancer, AIDS, starvation,  etc... Where is the outcry for that?   Should kids really be exposed to the knowledge of sickness and starvation?  You've got kids by the thousands out trumping for UNICEF on Halloween.  Big flippin deal. :shrug:


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## Vince

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> plus, they were supporting it for their church. the churches have daycares


Mine doesn't either.  Not all churches have daycare.


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## Danzig

If it was planned for a while then some other group of tards could plan a counter protest and before you know it some small child is caught in the middle and hurt or worse killed. Yea I know it is a one in a million chance but it’s still a chance. If you are that much of an idiot to put your kid at risk then you really don’t need to be raising kids.


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## sockgirl77

Christy said:
			
		

> Personally, I think you need to get a life and worry about your own kids instead of everyone else's.   Who are you to say what cause a parent should or should not get their children involved in?
> 
> You've got kids being strolled around for walks/benefits to fight cancer, AIDS, starvation,  etc... Where is the outcry for that?   Should kids really be exposed to the knowledge of sickness and starvation?  You've got kids by the thousands out trumping for UNICEF on Halloween.  Big flippin deal. :shrug:


there is a really big difference between having your kids support issues that they can understand and those that they can't. all i wanted to know is how people felt about this.


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## Vince

elaine said:
			
		

> There have been many things I've not done due to not having a sitter.  I got over it.


Maybe you can.  Some people feel so strongly about things they want their entire family involved. Personally, I wouldn't have brought my children to an event like this unless they were old enough to understand, but I would definitely support it.


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## sockgirl77

Vince said:
			
		

> Mine doesn't either.  Not all churches have daycare.


yes, i've already apologized for assuming that they all did


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## Danzig

Christy said:
			
		

> Personally, I think you need to get a life and worry about your own kids instead of everyone else's.  Who are you to say what cause a parent should or should not get their children involved in?
> 
> You've got kids being strolled around for walks/benefits to fight cancer, AIDS, starvation, etc... Where is the outcry for that?  Should kids really be exposed to the knowledge of sickness and starvation? You've got kids by the thousands out trumping for UNICEF on Halloween. Big flippin deal. :shrug:


When is the last time someone bombed a cancer or AIDS march.


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## Christy

Danzig said:
			
		

> When is the last time someone bombed a cancer or AIDS march.


Probably the last time someone bombed an anti-abortion protest, which would be never. :shrug:


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## mAlice

Christy said:
			
		

> Personally, I think you need to get a life and worry about your own kids instead of everyone else's.   Who are you to say what cause a parent should or should not get their children involved in?
> 
> You've got kids being strolled around for walks/benefits to fight cancer, AIDS, starvation,  etc... Where is the outcry for that?   Should kids really be exposed to the knowledge of sickness and starvation?  You've got kids by the thousands out trumping for UNICEF on Halloween.  Big flippin deal. :shrug:



Christy, a walk or benefit, such as those you've mentioned,  is not the same as a protest.  I don't feel it's any of my business how people raise their kids, but that doesn't keep me from having an opinion, and that's all SG was asking for.


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## sockgirl77

elaine said:
			
		

> Christy, a walk or benefit, such as those you've mentioned,  is not the same as a protest.  I don't feel it's any of my business how people raise their kids, but that doesn't keep me from having an opinion, and that's all SG was asking for.


   TYVM


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## Christy

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> there is a really big difference between having your kids support issues that they can understand and those that they can't. all i wanted to know is how people felt about this.


And I'm telling you how I feel about it. :shrug:

Okay, so you have no problem educating your kids on Cancer, AIDS, and world starvation, but you have an issue with educating them on what abortion is?   I don't see the logic. :shrug:


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## sockgirl77

Christy said:
			
		

> And I'm telling you how I feel about it. :shrug:
> 
> Okay, so you have no problem educating your kids on Cancer, AIDS, and world starvation, but you have an issue with educating them on what abortion is?   I don't see the logic. :shrug:


you want logic: 6 year old kids should not know about sex or issues pertaining to it.


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## dustin

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> you want logic: 6 year old kids should not know about sex or issues pertaining to it.



you should marry a Vulcan


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## Danzig

Christy said:
			
		

> And I'm telling you how I feel about it. :shrug:
> 
> Okay, so you have no problem educating your kids on Cancer, AIDS, and world starvation, but you have an issue with educating them on what abortion is?  I don't see the logic. :shrug:


There is a big difference in educating a child and being a crappy parent and taking your child to a place where violence could occur.


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## KCM

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> you want logic: 6 year old kids should not know about sex or issues pertaining to it.


Just wait till your child is in school.  They will learn all about sex whether you want them to or not - from other children around them.


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## Christy

elaine said:
			
		

> Christy, a walk or benefit, such as those you've mentioned, is not the same as a protest. I don't feel it's any of my business how people raise their kids, but that doesn't keep me from having an opinion, and that's all SG was asking for.


Well her issue is having her children involved in something they don't understand, which #1. I would argue that a child has the ability to understand abortion, both my kids know what abortion is.  :shrug:  #2. I'd take my kids to a protest I believed in, I think far too many people themselves don't get involved with important issues, and don't involve their children in important issues of this country, which in turn creates idiot children who look at Madonna or Ben Affleck as brilliant authorites on social issues.  

And that's my opinion.


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## mAlice

KCM said:
			
		

> Just wait till your child is in school.  They will learn all about sex whether you want them to or not - from other children around them.




And now they'll learn about abortion, too.  Isn't that special?


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## sockgirl77

KCM said:
			
		

> Just wait till your child is in school.  They will learn all about sex whether you want them to or not - from other children around them.


probably so, but hopefully i won't have to explain abortion to a 6 year old


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## Vince

Danzig said:
			
		

> There is a big difference in educating a child and being a crappy parent and taking your child to a place where violence could occur.


Why do automatically assume violence is going to occur at a peaceful demonstration?  Violence can occur when you take your kid to the mall or drive down the street.  Are going to hide them in the house until they grow up?


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## Kain99

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> you want logic: 6 year old kids should not know about sex or issues pertaining to it.


Abortion has very little to do with sex...... From a marketing standpoint, having 6 year olds with signs is pure genius!


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## Christy

Danzig said:
			
		

> There is a big difference in educating a child and being a crappy parent and taking your child to a place where violence could occur.


Guess we'd better keep our kids from their soccer games and the Waldorf Mall then.


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## sockgirl77

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Abortion has very little to do with sex...... From a marketing standpoint, having 6 year olds with signs is pure genius!


and just how did you come up with the logic that abortion has little to do with sex? last time i checked abortions are the result of sex.


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## sockgirl77

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Abortion has very little to do with sex...... From a marketing standpoint, having 6 year olds with signs is pure genius!


yeah, that's really genius


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## Christy

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> and just how did you come up with the logic that abortion has little to do with sex? last time i checked abortions are the result of sex.


You'd better shield your child from all the pregnant women in the County, as kept pregnancies also result from sex.


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## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> probably so, but hopefully i won't have to explain abortion to a 6 year old


I'll put money on you probably will have to


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## sockgirl77

Christy said:
			
		

> You'd better shield your child from all the pregnant women in the County, as kept pregnancies also results from sex.


i'm not in here discussing my views on abortion. i'm discussing the fact that i think that it is wrong to have small children involved in such issues as abortion


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## KCM

elaine said:
			
		

> And now they'll learn about abortion, too.  Isn't that special?


I ended up having to explain to my son about abortion before I really wanted to.  A fellow classmates mother had an abortion and this child decided to share this with the rest of the class.


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## Christy

Danzig said:
			
		

> There is a big difference in educating a child and being a crappy parent and taking your child to a place where violence could occur.


Oh!  And I'll bet you a dollar, statistically, public schools have more incidence of violence than a church sponsored protest.


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## sockgirl77

Elle said:
			
		

> I'll put money on you probably will have to


why did you have to explain to him about abortions? couldn't you just say that the church had crosses outside for decoration?


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## sockgirl77

KCM said:
			
		

> I ended up having to explain to my son about abortion before I really wanted to.  A fellow classmates mother had an abortion and this child decided to share this with the rest of the class.


and shame on the mother for thelling her child about her abortion


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## dustin

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> i'm not in here discussing my views on abortion. i'm discussing the fact that i think that it is wrong to have small children involved in such issues as abortion


 Well the durn thing is over and done with now. Maybe you should call the cops on whoever has another protest on the side of 235 with kids involved. Tell them that you are witnessing negligent and potentially harmfull parenting.


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## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> why did you have to explain to him about abortions? couldn't you just say that the church had crosses outside for decoration?


B/c I believe in the truth


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## sockgirl77

Elle said:
			
		

> B/c I believe in the truth


well, i guess as parents we will have to decide what is best for our children. i personally, will not be explaining abortioin or sex to a 6 year old.


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## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> well, i guess as parents we will have to decide what is best for our children. i personally, will not be explaining abortioin or sex to a 6 year old.


It's better for him to hear about it from his friends


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## Christy

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> i'm not in here discussing my views on abortion. i'm discussing the fact that i think that it is wrong to have small children involved in such issues as abortion


And that is what I'm discussing. 

I don't know, it's just never been a taboo subject with me and my kids, and they're pretty happy to know their mother not once considered having them sucked out and flushed. :shrug:


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## KCM

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> well, i guess as parents we will have to decide what is best for our children. i personally, will not be explaining abortioin or sex to a 6 year old.


Sometimes you don't have a choice.  And I would rather that my kids hear it from me than from someone else.  I want them to know the truth and consequences involving sex/abortion. Not what he/she hears from fellow students.


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## mAlice

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> why did you have to explain to him about abortions? couldn't you just say that the church had crosses outside for decoration?




Yeah, I could have danced around that one, too.


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## sockgirl77

Elle said:
			
		

> It's better for him to hear about it from his friends


whatever. hopefully my son won't have the kind of friends that discuss abortion at the age of 6


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## sockgirl77

*excuse me while*

i go put my son on a waiting list for a private school. i don't want him going to a school where they talk about sex and abortion at the ripe old ages of 6-10


----------



## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> whatever. hopefully my son won't have the kind of friends that discuss abortion at the age of 6


For your sake, and his too, I hope the same thing for ya


----------



## Elle

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> i go put my son on a waiting list for a private school. i don't want him going to a school where they talk about sex and abortion at the ripe old ages of 6-10


Pssst, the abortion crosses were in front of a private school


----------



## sockgirl77

Elle said:
			
		

> Pssst, the abortion crosses were in front of a private school


oh, i know that. and all of the ones that they were in front of will not be on my list of schools to send him to. there are private schools that aren't church affiliated


----------



## mAlice

Unfortunately, we live in a society where everyone wears their beliefs on their shirt sleeve.  There's a good chance that, regardless of what school you send your child to, they will be exposed to something that they're too young to understand.

If you choose to dump all of life's ugliness on your child when they are young, that's your choice.  If you choose to keep it simple and not go into any more detail than neccessary, that's your choice.


----------



## Katie

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> oh, i know that. and all of the ones that they were in front of will not be on my list of schools to send him to. there are private schools that aren't church affiliated



And do you really think that in private school the 6-10 year old's don't discuss sex and other stuff. BOY..you got another thing coming. Sometimes they are worse in private schools then in public.

I went to a private school..


----------



## sockgirl77

Katie said:
			
		

> And do you really think that in private school the 6-10 year old's don't discuss sex and other stuff. BOY..you got another thing coming. Sometimes they are worse in private schools then in public.
> 
> I went to a private school..


all i know is that i didn't know about sex until i was in middle school. maybe i had different parenting than others


----------



## unixpirate

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> no, i don' t know the exact ages of the children, but i got pretty good looks at them and most of them were between the ages of 6-10. no, it may not have been freezing but it was cold.




The adults were thinking about themselves   and the impact it would do by exploiting there own children.


----------



## Katie

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> all i know is that i didn't know about sex until i was in middle school. maybe i had different parenting than others



Hmm..my parents didn't to bad, I didn't end up in jail, on drugs or drinking at a young age. Nor did I end up having a baby when I was 14 or 15. My parents were up front and honest with me about all questions that I asked.


----------



## sockgirl77

Katie said:
			
		

> Hmm..my parents didn't to bad, I didn't end up in jail, on drugs or drinking at a young age. Nor did I end up having a baby when I was 14 or 15. My parents were up front and honest with me about all questions that I asked.


well, good for you. guess we just don't agree on what to tell children and what not to. i just know what i'm not going to tell my son.


----------



## mAlice

Katie said:
			
		

> My parents were up front and honest with me about all *questions that I asked*.




ding ding!


----------



## workin hard

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> i go put my son on a waiting list for a private school. i don't want him going to a school where they talk about sex and abortion at the ripe old ages of 6-10



HaHa good luck finding a school like that.  One of my best friend teaches kindergarten at a local elementary school.  This good friend has a very ample rear and numerous times the little boys in the class has commented on its size and how they would like to hit that.  They don't know what that means but they pick it up from parents, friends, etc.


----------



## mAlice

workin hard said:
			
		

> They don't know what that means but they pick it up from parents, friends, etc.




ding ding!


----------



## sunflower

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> all i know is that i didn't know about sex until i was in middle school. maybe i had different parenting than others


My son will be 9 and he has never said the word sex. The only thind he has asked is when you have a baby where does it come out at. I told him my belly. When i feel the time is right to discuss sex i will. Or when he comes to me asking about SEX. I guess all kids are different and it depends on the enviroment they are raised in and what kind of kids they hang out with?? JMO


----------



## watercolor

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> why did you have to explain to him about abortions? couldn't you just say that the church had crosses outside for decoration?




So lying to your child and giving them the same sheltered life you had- is better than giving them a life you never had? Just because you have to explain something to a child doesnt mean it has to be graphic or detrimental(sp) to their health. Its in the way the conversation and the details are handled. Im not saying you have to beat around the bush either. Just the graphic details are not needed. (leave that for when they are older)

Children are alot smarter and cohearant than you are making them out to be. Maybe this is just a side of you that is showing from your own sheltered lifestyle. :shrug: Personally... if the child was old enough I would have them out there with me to an extent of what the situation may be. Maybe not a 6 year old.. but a 9-12 year old would fully understand and be able to say "no I want to go to so and so's house while you are out there" or "yes, I would like to show I want to be there". Whatever the cause I may be or what have you- be supporting. 

It may not be right in your eyes, but that is why you are not their parent. That is why you are going to be the one to show your child in your life how it is done. Just hopefully you will not lead him to make the same rough decisions you were shown to make. (such as thinking the crosses are decoration. That is just a poor taste answer. )


----------



## Kain99

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> yeah, that's really genius


It is.... who in their right mind can feel that abortion is ok when you have children protesting against it?  Come on now... I know you're not all, dumb.


----------



## maxima87

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> probably so, but hopefully i won't have to explain abortion to a 6 year old



It isn't easy trying to explain it to a child.  About two months ago I was in Wal-Mart with my 5 year old and the two chickenheads in front of me were discussing one of them getting one.  Right there in the store he wanted to know what is was.  THe chix in front apologized for bringing it up around him...but I had to give my best explanation.  His response...What about adoption, so someone who really wants a baby can have one?  The girls in front looked like they wanted to cry.  I didn't need to go into all the details with him, but he knows now.  Bottom line is you cannot always avoid what other people, adults or kids say around your child.


----------



## watercolor

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> whatever. hopefully my son won't have the kind of friends that discuss abortion at the age of 6




Oh and further more- its not "that kind of friends" that will warp your child. "Those kind of friends" are normal children who will repeat everything told to them. Gee.. how relivant a child speaking what they are told. A child going and saying what they know. They are know it all's dont you know! What child do you know that will sit there and not voice that they know about this and that is the end of the story. That is when the time comes to step in and say- "well that is not exactly how it goes" and bring the truth to the situation for a better understanding.

I am really disgusted on how you are chosing your wording. because that right there shows that you are going to pick and choose your childrens friends and its going to be a sad day for your little boy when he doesnt mesh with the people you think he should. And then he is going to grow up depressed and when he hits the age of pure understanding- start to wonder

WHY YOU DID THIS TO HIM!

do you want that? Do you want to be the reason for him to start hating certain types of people just because you think its right? What happened to equal opportunity? It really does apply to alot of things.


Also- just for the record. I went to private school.. and it doesnt make a difference.. you think private school is going to shelter anything. You got a good smack in the face coming then.


----------



## Danzig

Kain99 said:
			
		

> It is.... who in their right minds can feel taht abortion is ok when you have children protesting against it? Come on now... I know you're not all, dumb.


Children ARE NOT protesting against it. They have no clue what it all means. Their retarded parents are protesting it and using their child as a pawn. I could take my kid to a rally to legalize crack but it does not mean he is for legalizing crack it just means his father is a crack head.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


----------



## mAlice

watercolor said:
			
		

> I am really disgusted on how you are chosing your wording.




Oh, the irony.


----------



## Katie

watercolor said:
			
		

> Oh and further more- its not "that kind of friends" that will warp your child. "Those kind of friends" are normal children who will repeat everything told to them. Gee.. how relivant a child speaking what they are told. A child going and saying what they know. They are know it all's dont you know! What child do you know that will sit there and not voice that they know about this and that is the end of the story. That is when the time comes to step in and say- "well that is not exactly how it goes" and bring the truth to the situation for a better understanding.
> 
> I am really disgusted on how you are chosing your wording. because that right there shows that you are going to pick and choose your childrens friends and its going to be a sad day for your little boy when he doesnt mesh with the people you think he should. And then he is going to grow up depressed and when he hits the age of pure understanding- start to wonder
> 
> WHY YOU DID THIS TO HIM!
> 
> do you want that? Do you want to be the reason for him to start hating certain types of people just because you think its right? What happened to equal opportunity? It really does apply to alot of things.


----------



## geminigrl

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> why did you have to explain to him about abortions? couldn't you just say that the church had crosses outside for decoration?


My 9 year old son noticed the crosses at the church on St John's Road, and he asked me what the crosses were for, before I could answer he read the sign, so now how do you get out of discussing it? You don't. I explained to him what they were and that was that. I'm not gonna lie to my kid, especailly when he already read the sign.


----------



## watercolor

elaine said:
			
		

> Oh, the irony.





You may think that. but its my _opinion_


----------



## sunflower

geminigrl said:
			
		

> My 9 year old son noticed the crosses at the church on St John's Road, and he asked me what the crosses were for, before I could answer he read the sign, so now how do you get out of discussing it? You don't. I explained to him what they were and that was that. I'm not gonna lie to my kid, especailly when he already read the sign.


 
Gem he read the sign but did he really know what he was reading? Anyway you explained it!! I was wondering even though he can read doesnt mean he knew what it meant?? I guess 9 is the right age to start talking about things like this though


----------



## geminigrl

sunflower said:
			
		

> Gem he read the sigh but did he really know what he was reading? Anyway you explained it!! I was wondering even though he can read doesnt mean he knew what it meant?? I guess 9 is the right age to start talking about things like this though


Sun, now you know that a 9 year old kid knows the meaning of "200 babies killed this year"(that's not what the sign said, but something to that matter)...Right?


----------



## mAlice

watercolor said:
			
		

> You may think that. but its my _opinion_



We need a whooosh here.


----------



## watercolor

elaine said:
			
		

> We need a whooosh here.




Not really... its just the point that I dont really care what you think.


----------



## mAlice

watercolor said:
			
		

> Not really... its just the point that I dont really care what you think.



Of course not.  You'd have to grasp it, first.


----------



## watercolor

elaine said:
			
		

> Of course not.  You'd have to grasp it, first.



No I just choose not to pay attention to you wanting to pay attention to me


----------



## mAlice

watercolor said:
			
		

> No I just choose not to pay attention to you wanting to pay attention to me



You may have the last word.


----------



## Nickel

I saw the kids, they were all bundled up.  I think the reason children were involved was because it was an anti-abortion demonstration, and nothing says "anti-abortion" like a bunch of kids, who obviously were not aborted.  They weren't protesting, they were standing on the side of the road holding up signs.  

The only time I've had issue with something like this was when something similar (albeit heinous) happened in Va Beach.  A friend of mine had a miscarriage at 6 months, and was given the option to deliver the fetus, or basically have a mock abortion.  She wasn't strong enough emotionally to deliver a dead child, so she opted for the abortion-type method.  She still isn't the same, and it happened about 5 years ago.  Then one day she was driving down the road, and saw some people holding signs.  She glanced at one, an anti-abortion poster, with a picture of an aborted fetus on it.  That has to be the most horrible and insensitive thing a person could ever do.  I don't care if it's meant to be that way, if the shock factor is supposed to get to people, but it was the middle of the day on a Saturday, I'm sure more than one child had to see that.


----------



## Josimmon

I think having a child at a protest is not a good thing no matter what the subject matter is.  What if the parents get taken away by the cops never mind heated fights.  I have my own feelings about heated subjects and yes I tell my children what they are but they are the opposite from the way I was raised.  I try to teach my kids to make their own choices about these heated topics.  I give both sides and try to be the devils advocate for both sides.  No I will never lie to my kids.  I made the truth age appropriate but it was still the truth.  

As far as teaching your kids about sex, in this day and age you almost have to.  There are far too many child molesters out there that prey on our innocent children.  Unfortunately these molesters are usually in the child’s life and not a stranger.  Just like that ad about talking to your kids about not using drugs or smoking, sometimes you have to tell them about sexual stuff.  It stinks that our society is so yucky that our kids can’t be kids.


----------



## Nickel

Josimmon said:
			
		

> I think having a child at a protest is not a good thing no matter what the subject matter is.  What if the parents get taken away by the cops never mind heated fights.  I have my own feelings about heated subjects and yes I tell my children what they are but they are the opposite from the way I was raised.  I try to teach my kids to make their own choices about these heated topics.  I give both sides and try to be the devils advocate for both sides.  No I will never lie to my kids.  I made the truth age appropriate but it was still the truth.
> 
> As far as teaching your kids about sex, in this day and age you almost have to.  There are far too many child molesters out there that prey on our innocent children.  Unfortunately these molesters are usually in the child’s life and not a stranger.  Just like that ad about talking to your kids about not using drugs or smoking, sometimes you have to tell them about sexual stuff.  It stinks that our society is so yucky that our kids can’t be kids.


 You're right, you do need to tell your children just enough so that if they are molested, they know it's wrong, or that hopefully they won't be molested.  But you could always do what my mom did...I was maybe 4 or 5, and she told me that anything that is covered by a bathing suit shouldn't be touched by anyone.  As I got older, she told me more.  I think I got the sex talk when I was about 9, and it was only the basics.


----------



## BuddyLee

I think most points have already been hit on here.  However, If the child is capable of understanding what *they* believe in and not what their *guardians *believe in then let them do what they will.  I think a child could understand the basics of this issue but not enough to understand all the possible details that are involved in this issue.  Abortion is a hot topic but only a prodigy child could understand everything the abortion issue has to offer.


----------



## Danzig

Nickel said:
			
		

> Inothing says "anti-abortion" like a bunch of kids, who obviously were not aborted. *They weren't protesting, they were standing on the side of the road holding up signs.*


*define PROTEST = standing on the side of the road holding up signs.*


----------



## Bogart

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> all i know is that i didn't know about sex until i was in middle school. maybe i had different parenting than others


Nobody knocked this grapefruit into the bay? Wow, it really _*is*_ a kinder, gentler forum.


----------



## Nickel

Danzig said:
			
		

> *define PROTEST = standing on the side of the road holding up signs.*


 I'm not speaking in a literal sense, the word "protest" has a strong connotation.  When I, and I'm sure many others, hear the word "protest", they think of the crazies in DC.  I would call what I saw a demonstration.


----------



## Sharon

Danzig said:
			
		

> *define PROTEST = standing on the side of the road holding up signs.*



I saw a ghoul at the corner of Rt. 235 and Rt. 4 all weekend long protesting the sale at K-mart.


----------



## Elle

Sharon said:
			
		

> I saw a ghoul at the corner of Rt. 235 and Rt. 4 all weekend long protesting the sale at K-mart.


Hey, if I happened to purchase a $28 bag for only $4.80 at said sale, does that mean I partook in a protest this weekend


----------



## Nickel

Elle said:
			
		

> Hey, if I happened to purchase a $28 bag for only $4.80 at said sale, does that mean I partook in a protest this weekend


 Were any children involved?


----------



## Elle

Nickel said:
			
		

> Were any children involved?


No I found a babysitter.  But I was there with my mom, does that make her a bad parent now


----------



## Nickel

Elle said:
			
		

> No I found a babysitter.  But I was there with my mom, does that make her a bad parent now


 Absolutely.


----------



## mAlice




----------



## PrepH4U

sockgirl77 said:
			
		

> I'm not posting this to discuss views on abortion. I am wondering what everyone thinks about this. As I was driving up Rt. 235 yesterday I noticed tons of people in Lex. Park holding up stop abortion signs. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and view on abortion. What bothered me was that there were quite a few kids ranging from 6-10 holding signs. Seems to me that a child this young shouldn't even know what abortion is. I just want to say shame on the churches and parents that allowed their children to stand out in the cold yesterday to support a cause that they should even know about! What do you think about this?



I agree with you, but my guess was there were kids that looked to be younger than 6.  I  think a few look like they were around 3.  I guess helping the parents got a little boring, as my car along with a few others had to slam on brakes as some little one got away from parent and came very close to entering 235.  Looking at it from the viewpoint of safety vs topic - I would say putting their children at risk of being hit by a car a little confusing to me.


----------



## mAlice

PrepH4U said:
			
		

> I agree with you, but my guess was there were kids that looked to be younger than 6.  I  think a few look like they were around 3.  I guess helping the parents got a little boring, as my car along with a few others had to slam on brakes as some little one got away from parent and came very close to entering 235.  Looking at it from the viewpoint of safety vs topic - I would say putting their children at risk of being hit by a car a little confusing to me.




Potential delayed abortion.  Somebody had a name for that.  What was it?


----------



## Makavide

So, no comments on yesterday's protest along 235?  Is it so commonplace now no one is concerned anymore?


----------



## mAlice

Freaks.  That's what I thought when I drove by.  Just freakin' nuts.


----------



## kwillia

Makavide said:
			
		

> So, no comments on yesterday's protest along 235?  Is it so commonplace now no one is concerned anymore?


I didn't see is so I can't comment... but it seems you saw it... do you have a comment...:shrug:


----------



## mAlice

kwillia said:
			
		

> I didn't see is so I can't comment... but it seems you saw it... do you have a comment...:shrug:




I saw it   They were freaks, I tell ya'.


----------



## kwillia

elaine said:
			
		

> I saw it   They were freaks, I tell ya'.


So that's one vote for "didn't help their cause one bit"...:gotcha:


----------



## mAlice

kwillia said:
			
		

> So that's one vote for "didn't help their cause one bit"...:gotcha:




   <---------Like my sign?


----------



## Tigerlily

Well I drove by twice trying to avoid an accident with my daughter next to me clearly proving that my abortion did not happen.


----------



## mAlice

Tigerlily said:
			
		

> Well I drove by twice trying to avoid an accident with my daughter next to me clearly proving that my abortion did not happen.




Translation, please?  Anybody?


----------



## kwillia

elaine said:
			
		

> Translation, please?  Anybody?


Best I can figure is she considered abortion, but it never happened thus she had her now grown fetus with her when she drove past them not only once, but twice...:shrug:


----------



## Makavide

kwillia said:
			
		

> I didn't see is so I can't comment... but it seems you saw it... do you have a comment...:shrug:



I only got to see a little part of it.  I was on the side of the road with them, hoping to let people know that there are people out there who believe abortion is wrong.


----------



## Tigerlily

kwillia said:
			
		

> Best I can figure is she considered abortion, but it never happened thus she had her now grown fetus with her when she drove past them not only once, but twice...:shrug:




 No just stating that I saw it once going North then again going back South. I just did not know what reaction to give them as I had chosen to give birth. They were all waving and chanting what was the point really. How many preganant people contemplating abortion really drove by there yesterday?


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> I only got to see a little part of it.  I was on the side of the road with them, hoping to let people know that there are people out there who believe abortion is wrong.




Well, that was silly.  Everybody knows that some people out there think abortion is wrong.  So, the only thing you accomplished is proving that you're freaks, and a buch of little kids asking "Mommy, what's abortion?".


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> Well, that was silly.  Everybody knows that some people out there think abortion is wrong.  So, the only thing you accomplished is proving that you're freaks, and a buch of little kids asking "Mommy, what's abortion?".



Well, hopefully we have helped open a line of communications between the mother and child - and that the mother is not afraid to talk to the child.


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> Well, that was silly.  Everybody knows that some people out there think abortion is wrong.  So, the only thing you accomplished is proving that you're freaks, and a buch of little kids asking "Mommy, what's abortion?".


 
I guess the people who are pro-choice( pro-abortion is what it really is)  don't bring their kids to pro-choice rallys! OH yeah maybe because they don't have any..duh! But alot do. And those kids must ask the same question. Right! "Mommy, what's abortion"? " Hey mommy did you think about aborting me"?


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> Well, hopefully we have helped open a line of communications between the mother and child - and that the mother is not afraid to talk to the child.




I think it's very selfish of you and you're church to force the rest of the world to have to explain something to a child that's too young to even know something like this exists.


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> I guess the people who are pro-choice( pro-abortion is what it really is)  don't bring their kids to pro-choice rallys! OH yeah maybe because they don't have any..duh! But alot do. And those kids must ask the same question. Right! "Mommy, what's abortion"? " Hey mommy did you think about aborting me"?




Where did I say that was okay?


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> Well, that was silly.  Everybody knows that some people out there think abortion is wrong.  So, the only thing you accomplished is proving that you're freaks, and a buch of little kids asking "Mommy, what's abortion?".


 Well why are they freaks?


----------



## BuddyLee

elaine said:
			
		

> I think it's very selfish of you and you're church to force the rest of the world to have to explain something to a child that's too young to even know something like this exists.


 There is a clear difference between public and private life.  More people should stop imposing their private views in the public realm, this causes much conflict as we can certainly see in this case.


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Well why are they freaks?




Because they're standing on the side of a busy road like retards.  :dur:  These people were leaning over the edge of the road with their signs.  Things like this cause distractions to drivers.  You want us to drive, or read your signs?  Don't we have enough signs that we're already required to read?


----------



## mAlice

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> There is a clear difference between public and private life.  More people should stop imposing their private views in the public realm, this causes much conflict as we can certainly see in this case.




That, too.  I've never protested anything.  It's stoopid.  You're not gonna change somebody's mind by making a fool of yourself.


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> I think it's very selfish of you and you're church to force the rest of the world to have to explain something to a child that's too young to even know something like this exists.



So, you are wishing that no one would publicly protest anything, because a child may be too young to be told about it?


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> So, you are wishing that no one would publicly protest anything, because a child may be too young to be told about it?



That's exactly what I'm saying.


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> That, too.  I've never protested anything.  It's stoopid.  You're not gonna change somebody's mind by making a fool of yourself.



I guess you have never heard of Susan B Anthony


----------



## kwillia

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Well why are they freaks?


I think it's freaky that they want to make an all inclusive "one size fits all" ruling for an issue that is personal and based on many factors in a given woman's life. A woman has a choice to make based on those many factors and what she deems is best for her circumstances.  I know many, many women who chose to continue their pregnancy, but that doesn't mean the same decision is right for every woman.


----------



## tomchamp

kwillia said:
			
		

> I think it's freaky that they want to make an all inclusive "one size fits all" ruling for an issue that is personal and based on *many factors in * *a given woman's life*. A woman has a choice to make based on those many factors and what she deems is best for her circumstances.  I know many, many women who chose to continue their pregnancy, but that doesn't mean the same decision is right for every woman.



I think sucking a baby out of the womb is far more freaky. BTW, most abortions are for the womens convenience.


----------



## MMDad

This type of protest, as well as the shock displays of fetuses does more to hurt a cause than help it. Those who agree with you aren't served, because they already believed. Those who disagree with you likewise will not change. That leaves those in between. If you were trying to decide wether to buy a Ford or Chevy, would you listen to the dealer shouting on the TV, or would you have a rational discussion of the subject with people familiar with both views?

Wave a sign in my face, and you will alienate me. Wave a bible in my face screaming about salvation, and you will turn me away from your brand of religion.


----------



## MMDad

tomchamp said:
			
		

> I think sucking a baby out of the womb is far more freaky. BTW, most abortions are for the womens convenience.



Your statement is purposefully shocking. It defeats your purpose. You have just made everyone who is either pro-choice or nuetral shy away from your view. Why not trying to use logical discussion to persuade?


----------



## BuddyLee

elaine said:
			
		

> That, too. I've never protested anything. It's stoopid. You're not gonna change somebody's mind by making a fool of yourself.


I wouldn't go that far.  Everyone has the right to protest, you have that right to protest their protest right here and now.  However, I don't know if that protest in particular will do more good than harm.


----------



## Pegster710

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> There is a clear difference between public and private life.  More people should stop imposing their private views in the public realm, this causes much conflict as we can certainly see in this case.



WTF??   

I guess you're saying it's OK to have an opinion on something, say, politics, but keep it to yourself?


----------



## itsbob

Vince said:
			
		

> They probably did it for lack of a sitter :shrug: .


Due to abortion 15 years ago, there is now a shortage of babysitters..


----------



## BuddyLee

MMDad said:
			
		

> This type of protest, as well as the shock displays of fetuses does more to hurt a cause than help it. Those who agree with you aren't served, because they already believed. Those who disagree with you likewise will not change. That leaves those in between. If you were trying to decide wether to buy a Ford or Chevy, would you listen to the dealer shouting on the TV, or would you have a rational discussion of the subject with people familiar with both views?
> 
> Wave a sign in my face, and you will alienate me. Wave a bible in my face screaming about salvation, and you will turn me away from your brand of religion.


Not only that but add on the guilt factor.  I wonder how many women DID have an abortion and DOES feel horrible about it.  Does anyone think they need a roadside reminder for miles upon end?  Keep it at home and the church, if you feel that is not enough write your congress.


----------



## BuddyLee

Pegster710 said:
			
		

> WTF??
> 
> I guess you're saying it's OK to have an opinion on something, say, politics, but keep it to yourself?


Read my second comment.  You may have an opinion but you may not force that opinion on someone else.  When this happens it causes much conflict as it is already seen here in this case.


----------



## itsbob

Makavide said:
			
		

> I guess you have never heard of Susan B Anthony


Who??


----------



## mAlice

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I wouldn't go that far.  Everyone has the right to protest, you have that right to protest their protest right here and now.  However, I don't know if that protest in particular will do more good than harm.



I didn't say people don't have the right.  I said I think it's stupid.  As long as they can stand on the side of the road and wave signs at people, I can say theyr'e stupid.


----------



## tomchamp

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I wouldn't go that far.  Everyone has the right to protest, you have that right to protest their protest right here and now.  However, I don't know if that protest in particular will do more good than harm.



Maybe, just maybe. There there was one girl that went by there that day. And thought twice about it and decided to keep her baby. I doubt there where any that where convinced that abortion was the only way. So just by getting one to change her mind. They may have done more good!


----------



## MMDad

MMDad said:
			
		

> Your statement is purposefully shocking. It defeats your purpose. You have just made everyone who is either pro-choice or nuetral shy away from your view. Why not trying to use logical discussion to persuade?




I got red for this, without the courage to identify themselves. Just the statement "Wrong". If you don't have the courage to debate rationally and openly, don't hide behind your anonymity to insult my views.


----------



## Makavide

MMDad said:
			
		

> Wave a sign in my face, and you will alienate me. Wave a bible in my face screaming about salvation, and you will turn me away from your brand of religion.




We are not waving a sign in anyone's face - we are standing along the road (much like any political canidates supporters) holding up a sign to show, those willing to see, that abortion is not the only answer.  If we save even one child, or open the eyes of one person we have accomplished something.


----------



## BuddyLee

elaine said:
			
		

> I didn't say people don't have the right. I said I think it's stupid. As long as they can stand on the side of the road and wave signs at people, I can say theyr'e stupid.


And I'll go onto agree with you in this case in particular.


----------



## MMDad

Makavide said:
			
		

> We are not waving a sign in anyone's face - we are standing along the road (much like any political canidates supporters) holding up a sign to show, those willing to see, that abortion is not the only answer.  If we save even one child, or open the eyes of one person we have accomplished something.



If you turn one person toward your views yet alienate one hundred, what have you accomplished? Wouldn't it be more effective if you used rational discussion to convince the hundred?

When you see a politician waving a sign, does that convince you to vote for them? Or do you pursue the facts and make an informed decision?

I'm less likely to vote for the person with the most signs. It shows that they think we are stupid sheep who will vote solely based on name recognition. Alas, the press has proven that most voters are sheep.


----------



## BuddyLee

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Maybe, just maybe. There there was one girl that went by there that day. And thought twice about it and decided to keep her baby. I doubt there where any that where convinced that abortion was the only way. So just by getting one to change her mind. They may have done more good!


True, you may be right.  However, the weight factor comes in.  That one person may have changed their minds but how many children have you corrupted at such a young age?


----------



## mAlice

Pegster710 said:
			
		

> WTF??
> 
> I guess you're saying it's OK to have an opinion on something, say, politics, but keep it to yourself?




Like someone else said, have your opinion, even share it with your church or organization that thinks the way you do.  Write your congressman, vote, whatever...I just don't think it should be shoved down my throat, forcing me (hypothetically) to have to explain it to my kid before it's time to have a discussion on that nature.


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> We are not waving a sign in anyone's face - we are standing along the road (much like any political canidates supporters) holding up a sign to show, those willing to see, that abortion is not the only answer.  If we save even one child, or open the eyes of one person we have accomplished something.




You should put as much effort into saving homeless and abused children.  There's a cause for you.  Have you considered adopting one of these "live" children?


----------



## tomchamp

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> True, you may be right.  However, the weight factor comes in.  That one person may have changed their minds but how many children have you corrupted at such a young age?



How in the hell could telling a kid abortion is wrong be corrupting them?


----------



## mAlice

MMDad said:
			
		

> I got red for this, without the courage to identify themselves. Just the statement "Wrong". If you don't have the courage to debate rationally and openly, don't hide behind your anonymity to insult my views.




Gee.  I wonder who that was?


----------



## BuddyLee

tomchamp said:
			
		

> How in the hell could telling a kid abortion is wrong be corrupting them?


Follow the logic:  

Parent: ABORTION IS WRONG!

Child:  What is abortion?


----------



## tomchamp

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> Follow the logic:
> 
> Parent: ABORTION IS WRONG!
> 
> Child:  What is abortion?



How about this logic: 

Parent: Explains to child what abortion is!

Child: Abortion is wrong!


----------



## BuddyLee

tomchamp said:
			
		

> How about this logic:
> 
> Parent: Explains to child what abortion is!
> 
> Child: Abortion is wrong!


 Have fun with that explanation.

:depressionrises: :anotherschoolshooting: :moreno-namepsychologicaldiseasessprout:


----------



## Makavide

MMDad said:
			
		

> If you turn one person toward your views yet alienate one hundred, what have you accomplished? Wouldn't it be more effective if you used rational discussion to convince the hundred?



If we turned one person, we have saved lives.

If by peacefully standing on the side of the roads alienates people, then they I will pray for them that they can learn tolerance.

And to start a rational discussion requires letting others know your opinion, which is what we did.

So let's start a rational discussion -  my view is that abortion is terminating the life of a fetus, which is a viable human at the point of conception.


----------



## kwillia

So much for thinking a thread could actually develop into a thought provoking conversation...


----------



## meangirl

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Maybe, just maybe. There there was one girl that went by there that day. And thought twice about it and decided to keep her baby. I doubt there where any that where convinced that abortion was the only way. So just by getting one to change her mind. They may have done more good!



OMG, give me a break!


----------



## BuddyLee

Makavide said:
			
		

> If we turned one person, we have saved lives.
> 
> If by peacefully standing on the side of the roads alienates people, then they I will pray for them that they can learn tolerance.


So why not 'pray' in the first place?  If you believe and have faith why should you need more than prayer?  Did another David Koresh come about your group and say "I've spoken to God and he wants us to protest!"?


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> You should put as much effort into saving homeless and abused children.  There's a cause for you.  Have you considered adopting one of these "live" children?


yes


----------



## RoseRed

Makavide said:
			
		

> If by peacefully standing on the side of the roads alienates people, then they I will pray for them that they can learn tolerance.



I saw people leaning out into the road and trying to touch the cars.


----------



## BuddyLee

RoseRed said:
			
		

> I saw people leaning out into the road and trying to touch the cars.


:delayedabortion:


----------



## itsbob

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Maybe, just maybe. There there was one girl that went by there that day. And thought twice about it and decided to keep her baby. I doubt there where any that where convinced that abortion was the only way. So just by getting one to change her mind. They may have done more good!


How many clinics have you been to, and offered up adoption to someone considering abortion.. not to put the kid in an adoption mill but for you to adopt?  How many of these adopted kids do you have??


----------



## RoseRed

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> :delayedabortion:


:snort:


----------



## itsbob

Makavide said:
			
		

> If we turned one person, we have saved lives.
> 
> If by peacefully standing on the side of the roads alienates people, then they I will pray for them that they can learn tolerance.
> 
> And to start a rational discussion requires letting others know your opinion, which is what we did.
> 
> So let's start a rational discussion -  my view is that abortion is terminating the life of a fetus, which is a viable human at the point of conception.


and if abortion wasn't legal, an alternative, what would the women do that did not want the child??  Have it anyways??  No.. they would find other ways.. lets see in the past.. there were letting their boyfriends hit and kick them in the stomach hoping to cause miscarriage.. there were dirty metal hangers.. illegal abortion clinics on kitchen tables... or in dirty hourly rate hotels.. OR it can be legal, in a clean and sterile environment where the chances of the young girls survivale are better then 50 50....


----------



## tomchamp

itsbob said:
			
		

> How many clinics have you been to, and offered up adoption to someone considering abortion.. not to put the kid in an adoption mill but for you to adopt?  How many of these adopted kids do you have??



 None Bob, my point to this whole tread was is telling kids if abortions is wrong or not! They were peacefully protesting and were called freaks and they should not have had their kids with them! I disagreed!


----------



## BuddyLee

tomchamp said:
			
		

> None Bob, my point to this whole tread was is telling kids if abortions is wrong or not! They were peacefully protesting and were called freaks and they should not have had their kids with them! I disagreed!


When I have children I cannot wait to tell them about death and other macabre things of this world.


----------



## DoWhat

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> When I have children


Got to get laid first.


----------



## BuddyLee

DoWhat said:
			
		

> Got to get laid first.


I could go to an abortion clinic, you know they're putting out.


----------



## RoseRed

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I could go to an abortion clinic, you know they're putting out.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BuddyLee again.


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> None Bob, my point to this whole tread was is telling kids if abortions is wrong or not! They were peacefully protesting and were called freaks and they should not have had their kids with them! I disagreed!




And you're missing my point.  It should be up to the parents when to have this type of discussion with their children.  Not forced on them early because you have an agenda.


----------



## meangirl

elaine said:
			
		

> And you're missing my point.  It should be up to the parents when to have this type of discussion with their children.  Not forced on them early because you have an agenda.



Exactly.   Easy to tell who does and does not have children.


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> And you're missing my point.  It should be up to the parents when to have this type of discussion with their children.  Not forced on them early because you have an agenda.



I agree. These parents decided to do just that!


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> I agree. These parents decided to do just that!



Decided to do what?


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> And you're missing my point.  It should be up to the parents when to have this type of discussion with their children.  Not forced on them early because you have an agenda.



Your quote! They should decide!


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Your quote! They should decide!




I don't care what they tell their children.  I care what my children read on the side of the road, that I have to explain before my child is ready.

Are you drinking already?


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> I don't care what they tell their children.  I care what my children read on the side of the road, that I have to explain before my child is ready.
> 
> *Are you drinking already?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Don't go there. This is a freindly argument!


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> elaine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what they tell their children.  I care what my children read on the side of the road, that I have to explain before my child is ready.
> 
> *Are you drinking already?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Don't go there. This is a freindly argument!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must have hit the nail on the head.
Click to expand...


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> Must have hit the nail on the head.



Yeah and I would have missed the nail!  No hard feeling elaine!


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Yeah and I would have missed the nail!  No hard feeling elaine!






No Drinking and Posting.


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> And you're missing my point.  It should be up to the parents when to have this type of discussion with their children.  Not forced on them early because you have an agenda.



I am sorry about this misunderstanding.  My "agenda" is not to force you to talk with your children.  My "agenda" is to let people know that I believe abortion is wrong, and that I am willing to stand up for my beliefs in the hopes that others will stand up as well and someday get everyone to agree that abortion is wrong.

The nice thing about this country is that I am allowed to express my opinons in public, just like you are.  There were announcement out about this protest, so the area could have been avoided if someone did not want to deal with the questions that may arise.


----------



## vraiblonde

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I could go to an abortion clinic, you know they're putting out.


OMG!


----------



## tomchamp

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> OMG!



He got that line from Chris Rock!


----------



## vraiblonde

Makavide said:
			
		

> The nice thing about this country is that I am allowed to express my opinons in public, just like you are.  There were announcement out about this protest, so the area could have been avoided if someone did not want to deal with the questions that may arise.


May I?

Elaine, if "Planned Parenthood" (and I use that term loosely because everyone knows they're merely a pro-abortion, pro-teen sex organization) would offer alternatives to these girls instead of just scheduling them for abortions, maybe people like Makavide wouldn't have to stand on the side of the road doing it for them.

Yes, I'd freak if one of my girls got pregnant.  But I also know (because I've done it) that teen pregnancy isn't the end of the world.  You can marry the father or not, have your baby and it will all work out.  I have never regretted not aborting my son.


----------



## tomchamp

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> May I?
> 
> Elaine, if "Planned Parenthood" (and I use that term loosely because everyone knows they're merely a pro-abortion, pro-teen sex organization) would offer alternatives to these girls instead of just scheduling them for abortions, maybe people like Makavide wouldn't have to stand on the side of the road doing it for them.
> 
> Yes, I'd freak if one of my girls got pregnant.  But I also know (because I've done it) that teen pregnancy isn't the end of the world.  You can marry the father or not, have your baby and it will all work out.  I have never regretted not aborting my son.



Amen to Vrai!


----------



## Ken King

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I have never regretted not aborting my son.


And I bet he feels the same if not more so then you do.


----------



## BuddyLee

Makavide said:
			
		

> I am sorry about this misunderstanding. My "agenda" is not to force you to talk with your children. My "agenda" is to let people know that I believe abortion is wrong, and that I am willing to stand up for my beliefs in the hopes that others will stand up as well and someday get everyone to agree that abortion is wrong.


In trying to do what you want or what you think is right you also do many other things which you do not mean to do, you're initial act is not pure, it has costs.

From Levinas:

"The comedy begins with the simplest of our movements, each of which carries with it an inevitable awkwardness.  In putting out my hand to approach a chair, I have creased the sleeve of my jacket.  I have scratched the floor, I have dropped the ash from my cigarette.  In doing that which I wanted to do, I have done so many things I did not want.  The act has not been pure, for I have left some traces.  In wiping out these traces, I have left others.  Sherlock Holmes will apply his science to this irreducible coarseness of each of my initiatives and thereby, the comedy may well turn tragic.  When the awkwardness of the act turns against the goal pursued, we are at the height of tragedy."

BTW, good point Vrai.


----------



## MMDad

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Don't go there. This is a freindly argument!



This stopped being friendly when you said "I think sucking a baby out of the womb is far more freaky."

Your comment was divisive and it polarized the discussion. This is not a black and white issue. 10% of people believe in their view without regard to any other opinions and they are called radicals. The other 80% of us are somewhere between and are willing to listen to other points of view and form our own opinions.

When you use shock statements, you galvanize everyone. You now have your 10%, but you lost the other %90. When I drove past the site of the protest on my way home, I looked at all of the crosses and thought of you. I will not listen to someone who shows his radical side by being intentionally offensive.


----------



## MMDad

Makavide said:
			
		

> I am sorry about this misunderstanding.  My "agenda" is not to force you to talk with your children.  My "agenda" is to let people know that I believe abortion is wrong, and that I am willing to stand up for my beliefs in the hopes that others will stand up as well and someday get everyone to agree that abortion is wrong.
> 
> The nice thing about this country is that I am allowed to express my opinons in public, just like you are.  There were announcement out about this protest, so the area could have been avoided if someone did not want to deal with the questions that may arise.



As a veteran, I fully support your right to say what you want. And as I drive by, I have the right to feel you are pushing me away with your in-your-face demonstration.

As a parent, I have the right to choose when to educate my children. I can research what's on TV, and take steps to prevent exposure to inappropriate content. I have the choice when to explain to my children why people who believe they are reasonable choose to pretend they have buried hundreds of babies next to the road. Your display means that now I have to either avoid the area or distract my children. That puts you in the same league as the strip club and smut advertisers.


----------



## vraiblonde

MMDad said:
			
		

> This stopped being friendly when you said "I think sucking a baby out of the womb is far more freaky."


Hello????  You don't think that is freaky????  Freakier, even, than people holding signs CALLING it freaky???

Well, I do and I'm even pro-abortion!

What is so shocking or offensive about calling abortion what it is - the sucking of infants from the womb, then disposing of them like yesterday's garbage?  If that offends people, oh-frigging-well.  

I find the act itself shocking and offensive, but not the people who call it what it is.  And I find people who want to play sensitive language games and call it "choice" offensive and shocking as hell.


----------



## vraiblonde

MMDad said:
			
		

> That puts you in the same league as the strip club and smut advertisers.


How can you say that?????

Abortion has been a hot topic for as long as I can remember.  My kids have known what it was since they were old enough to read.  When they asked, I told them and they said (I quote)  "Ewwwwww!  How can people do that and not get arrested???"

Good question.  And a much harder one to answer than "Mommy, what's abortion?"


----------



## MMDad

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Hello????  You don't think that is freaky????  Freakier, even, than people holding signs CALLING it freaky???
> 
> Well, I do and I'm even pro-abortion!
> 
> What is so shocking or offensive about calling abortion what it is - the sucking of infants from the womb, then disposing of them like yesterday's garbage?  If that offends people, oh-frigging-well.
> 
> I find the act itself shocking and offensive, but not the people who call it what it is.  And I find people who want to play sensitive language games and call it "choice" offensive and shocking as hell.



That's like showing the dead kurdish babies to justify killing Saddam. Rational discussion does not resort to shock tactics. I'm not denying what abortion is, but when you use divisive, polarizing, shocking phrases you have to expect most people to react negatively.


----------



## MMDad

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> How can you say that?????
> 
> Abortion has been a hot topic for as long as I can remember.  My kids have known what it was since they were old enough to read.  When they asked, I told them and they said (I quote)  "Ewwwwww!  How can people do that and not get arrested???"
> 
> Good question.  And a much harder one to answer than "Mommy, what's abortion?"



If you chose to educate at that age, that's fine. I don't choose to do that yet, and that's fine.

I'm just trying to make the point that forcing your views on people is divisive. Any time I see the holier than thou people on the side of the road, it drives me farther away from their views.

Vrai, I believe we have the same feelings on this. I believe that no woman should use her right to choose, but I am not willing to support anyone who would remove that right. However, the shock comments used earlier have galvanized opinions to the point that everyone has become "if you aren't with me, you're against me."


----------



## Pete

MMDad said:
			
		

> If you chose to educate at that age, that's fine. I don't choose to do that yet, and that's fine.
> 
> I'm just trying to make the point that forcing your views on people is divisive. Any time I see the holier than thou people on the side of the road, it drives me farther away from their views.


Boy asked me months ago what all those crosses were on 235 by the church.  I told him the truth.  It was a little uncomfortable but I figured I had a choice.  1. I could do what I did and tell him what abortion is and be truthful.  2. Say something like "It is too complicated for you, we can talk about it when you are older." THEN have his go somewhere else for the info.  I would rather teach my kid than leave it to someone else.


----------



## MMDad

Pete said:
			
		

> Boy asked me months ago what all those crosses were on 235 by the church.  I told him the truth.  It was a little uncomfortable but I figured I had a choice.  1. I could do what I did and tell him what abortion is and be truthful.  2. Say something like "It is too complicated for you, we can talk about it when you are older." THEN have his go somewhere else for the info.  I would rather teach my kid than leave it to someone else.



I assume you made your choice based on your assessment of what was best. I want to educate my kids, but not until I believe they are ready. Neither of us is wrong.


----------



## Makavide

itsbob said:
			
		

> Who??



Not sure if you were being serious or sarcastic, but since I was discussing this board with someone earlier and they had the same response - Susan B. Anthony was a leading figure in the protests that eventually allowed women the right to vote in this country. 

(and it has gone down hill ever since j/k)


----------



## vraiblonde

MMDad said:
			
		

> I'm just trying to make the point that forcing your views on people is divisive. Any time I see the holier than thou people on the side of the road, it drives me farther away from their views.


I don't see it as "forcing their views" - I see it as protesting something they think is wrong and bringing attention to it.

And anytime you think something is wrong and you speak out against it, people who are FOR it are going to get pissed and consider it divisive.  So what?  :shrug:

Curious, though - what statements were made that you found so offensive and inflammatory?  I used to drive past a church every day that had "Aborticide is murder" on their marquee.  My girlfriend used to get really angry at that sign but I was like, "Okay, but aborticide IS murder - why would that make you angry when someone says so?    "


----------



## vraiblonde

Musing:

What if the US had decided to not get involved in WWII because it would be too hard to explain to your children exactly what Hitler was doing over there?


----------



## Pete

MMDad said:
			
		

> I assume you made your choice based on your assessment of what was best. I want to educate my kids, but not until I believe they are ready. Neither of us is wrong.


Agree, BTW he thought the practice was "nasty" without prompting.  Especially when he realized he would not be there to ask the question if his mom had had one.

BTW, I disagree with you regarding calling abortion what it is as "shocking speech".  I feel that is a great deal of what is wrong in this country, we have been desensitized by the PC police homogenizing things down to "non-offensive terms".


----------



## vraiblonde

Pete said:
			
		

> Especially when he realized he would not be there to ask the question if his mom had had one.


My kids never considered what would have happened had I or the girls' mother had an abortion when we were pregnant with them.  They automatically assumed that women who would do that are low-rent skeezers who probably don't know who the father is anyway.  I did nothing to dissuade them from this assessment.


----------



## Pete

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> My kids never considered what would have happened had I or the girls' mother had an abortion when we were pregnant with them.  They automatically assumed that women who would do that are low-rent skeezers who probably don't know who the father is anyway.  I did nothing to dissuade them from this assessment.


I purposely avoided letting him in on the fact that I married his mom despite her being a low rent skeezer.  I still want him to think I am smart.


----------



## kwillia

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> They automatically assumed that women who would do that are low-rent skeezers who probably don't know who the father is anyway.  I did nothing to dissuade them from this assessment.


Interesting, I don't see it that way because I see so many low-rent skeezers hauling around snot-nosed, unkept infants everytime I go to the store.


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> The nice thing about this country is that I am allowed to express my opinons in public, just like you are.  There were announcement out about this protest, so the area could have been avoided if someone did not want to deal with the questions that may arise.



You're a self serving, fanatatical ass.  You have absolutely no interest in the harm you cause others.  If you did, you wouldn't be out on the side of the street.  Do you really think _everyone_ will see every announcement that's made?  You're pathetic.


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> You're a self serving, fanatatical ass.  You have absolutely no interest in the harm you cause others.  If you did, you wouldn't be out on the side of the street.  Do you really think _everyone_ will see every announcement that's made?  You're pathetic.



If it is a matter of saving the life of an unborn child compared to a 6 year old child finding out what abortion is from their parent as opposed to them being 8 and finding out about on the play ground, then I can see no harm being done to anyone.  In fact two things are accomplished -  a child is saved and the lines of communication between parent and child is stronger.


----------



## vraiblonde

kwillia said:
			
		

> Interesting, I don't see it that way because I see so many low-rent skeezers hauling around snot-nosed, unkept infants everytime I go to the store.


Those are the ones that lost the gamble (the "gamble" being that Bebe Daddy would marry them and stay home to raise a family instead of continuing to bang his old girlfriends).  In a lot of ways, the abortion gals are smarter.


----------



## BuddyLee

Tomorrow I'm starting up a big rally to gain momentum for an even greater Nazi following.  While you're driving down 235 tomorrow, you can thank us fellow Nazi's for all the Nazi propaganda that others and I spew (with our freedom).  You can also thank us for the many swastikas that will be flying tomorrow.  Hell, we'll even do it all in front of our gassing chambers for an even greater effect.  I don't care what you tell your children as long as my beliefs are infringed upon you...someway.  You lose.  I win. :bwahahah:


----------



## vraiblonde

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I don't care what you tell your children as long as my beliefs are infringed upon you...someway.


Feel free.  My kids and I would make merciless fun of you and you would provide us with catchphrases for months.


----------



## BuddyLee

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Feel free. My kids and I would make merciless fun of you and you would provide us with catchphrases for months.


It matters not, for my ideas still live within your jokes.  My beliefs do not die; they live on, they're talked about, joked about, thought about.  The worst possible thing you could do is to _try_ to ignore it, however, most don't have the will to do so.


----------



## meme

Sorry I didn't read through all the posts.  

But I do see a problem with this.  There are alot of sick-o's out there bombing abortion clinics, killing abortion doctors, nurses, and people who come into the clinics for abortions.  God forbid some anit-abortion nazi takes out their views/frustration on some 6 year old kid (or any kid for that matter.)


----------



## vraiblonde

When I was at Tester we got an ad from a right-to-life group depicting a photograph of an 8 week old fetus, with an anti-abortion message.  On one hand, well, that's what they look like and that's what you're killing.  Why is it wrong to educate people so they can make an informed decision?  On the other hand, who needs the controversy?

I finally passed it up to my boss and made it her problem.  She gave it the  because it was fairly graphic.


----------



## BuddyLee

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> When I was at Tester we got an ad from a right-to-life group depicting a photograph of an 8 week old fetus, with an anti-abortion message. On one hand, well, that's what they look like and that's what you're killing. Why is it wrong to educate people so they can make an informed decision? On the other hand, who needs the controversy?
> 
> I finally passed it up to my boss and made it her problem. She gave it the  because it was fairly graphic.


 Problem is, not many can decide on a line to meet at.  At what point do your beliefs and what you do with those beliefs start to infringe upon anothers beliefs?


----------



## vraiblonde

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> At what point do your beliefs and what you do with those beliefs start to infringe upon anothers beliefs?


Good question. 

Simply making their beliefs against the law isn't necessarily "infringing" - lots of people think murder and assault shouldn't be against the law, and we "infringe" on them all the time.

People think gun ownership shouldn't be against the law, and many states actually go against our country's Constitution to "infringe" on those rights.

Here's a funny one - we "infringe" on the rights of people who want to have more than one spouse, yet we don't "infringe" when they want to kill their unborn child.



How screwed up is that?


----------



## BuddyLee

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Good question.
> 
> Simply making their beliefs against the law isn't necessarily "infringing" - lots of people think murder and assault shouldn't be against the law, and we "infringe" on them all the time.
> 
> People think gun ownership shouldn't be against the law, and many states actually go against our country's Constitution to "infringe" on those rights.
> 
> Here's a funny one - we "infringe" on the rights of people who want to have more than one spouse, yet we don't "infringe" when they want to kill their unborn child.
> 
> 
> 
> How screwed up is that?


We live in a carnival.


----------



## crabcake

Makavide said:
			
		

> Well, hopefully we have helped open a line of communications between the mother and child - and that the mother is not afraid to talk to the child.


 Ironic you're concerned about communication between mother and child, yet your tagline reads "Not too talkative".


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> That, too. I've never protested anything. It's stoopid. You're not gonna change somebody's mind by making a fool of yourself.


  But it's fun to laugh at them for making a fool of themselves! 

 This crap reminds me of that vehicle that would drive around the streets of Washington with huge pictures (5'x5') of aborted fetuses ... like kids need to see _that_ crap to "open those lines of communication".


----------



## Chasey_Lane

Nevermind, Elaine - I found my answer(s).


----------



## morganj614

Makavide said:
			
		

> If it is a matter of saving the life of an unborn child compared to a 6 year old child finding out what abortion is from their parent as opposed to them being 8 and finding out about on the play ground, then I can see no harm being done to anyone.  In fact two things are accomplished -  a child is saved and the lines of communication between parent and child is stronger.



I see you are not raising free thinkers


----------



## vraiblonde

morganj614 said:
			
		

> I see you are not raising free thinkers


Thank god.  I'm sick of "free-thinkers" - half of them are insane and the other half are just stupid.  "Free-thinker" is typically a euphemism for "You can't boss me!  Whatevah!  I do what I want!"


----------



## crabcake

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Thank god. I'm sick of "free-thinkers" - half of them are insane and the other half are just stupid. "Free-thinker" is typically a euphemism for "You can't boss me! Whatevah! I do what I want!"


 Now now ... I raise my daughter to think for herself (free thinker), but not in the sense that she be an idiot about it. I think the key to encouraging free thought is to also inform them about consequences, and to think about that when they make decisions. If you have a kid who can't comprehend consequences, free thought isn't a good idea.


----------



## vraiblonde

crabcake said:
			
		

> I think the key to encouraging free thought is to also inform them about consequences


Key phrase.  However, so-called "free thinkers" don't seem to be able to grasp that part.


----------



## Christy

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Here's a funny one - we "infringe" on the rights of people who want to have more than one spouse, yet we don't "infringe" when they want to kill their unborn child.
> 
> 
> 
> How screwed up is that?


Isn't that just nuts?   I'm desperate for a second wife to tend to my house.  (for real!)

Here's what else is nuts.  A hysterectomy is not a "choice", it's pretty much got to be rotting with the gang green before they'll give you the "choice" to have it yanked. But a perfectly healthy, viable human being can be yanked from it nooooo problemo.   It just irks me. 

Okay so I went totally off topic. Sue me.


----------



## morganj614

If you must tell a six year old what abortion is then they should also be told about choice. Why not tell both sides?


----------



## vraiblonde

Christy said:
			
		

> rotting with the gang green


Ewww


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Ewww



It's true.  I used to make up symptoms to try and get that crap removed.  It's still there.


----------



## Christy

morganj614 said:
			
		

> If you must tell a six year old what abortion is then they should also be told about choice. Why not tell both sides?


Because as a parent, in no uncertain terms, do I want my kids to think abortion is an option. :shrug:  Here's a bad analogy, but  It's along the same lines with parents telling kids that at the age of 16 it's legal to quit school. :shrug:  It may be legal but it's in no way, shape or form, a choice in our household. Does that make any sense?


----------



## mAlice

Christy said:
			
		

> Because as a parent, in no uncertain terms, do I want my kids to think abortion is an option. :shrug:  Here's a bad analogy, but  It's along the same lines with parents telling kids that at the age of 16 it's legal to quit school. :shrug:  It may be legal but it's in no way, shape or form, a choice in our household. Does that make any sense?



I've always explained that there are choices.  Have an abortion, keep it, or carry it and give it up.  It has in no way influenced my daughters views.  She finds the thought of having an abortion horrifying.


----------



## morganj614

Christy said:
			
		

> Because as a parent, in no uncertain terms, do I want my kids to think abortion is an option. :shrug:  Here's a bad analogy, but  It's along the same lines with parents telling kids that at the age of 16 it's legal to quit school. :shrug:  It may be legal but it's in no way, shape or form, a choice in our household. Does that make any sense?



It makes sense...and kids will form adult opinions when the time comes. While I may not believe in abortion I do believe in choice and kids being told they always have a choice AND the pros and cons of possible choices.

I watched Nip/Tuck...would you like your uterus removed?


----------



## vraiblonde

morganj614 said:
			
		

> If you must tell a six year old what abortion is then they should also be told about choice. Why not tell both sides?


  Okay....

There's no "both sides" - abortion is what it is.  I didn't say anything to my children about right or wrong - they asked what abortion was and I said, "It's when a woman is pregnant and doesn't want to have the baby, so she has a doctor vacuum it out of her and throws it away."

Plain and simple.  I didn't say, "But this is WRONG!" - they caught that on their own.  Now that they're older, they know exactly how I feel about it.


----------



## morganj614

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Okay....
> 
> There's no "both sides" - abortion is what it is.  I didn't say anything to my children about right or wrong - they asked what abortion was and I said, "It's when a woman is pregnant and doesn't want to have the baby, so she has a doctor vacuum it out of her and throws it away."
> 
> Plain and simple.  I didn't say, "But this is WRONG!" - they caught that on their own.  Now that they're older, they know exactly how I feel about it.


----------



## vraiblonde

You know, when I was a kid, I never gave abortion a second thought.  It was no more consequential to me than clipping my fingernails, and I figured if I ever got pregnant at an inconvenient time I'd just run on down to the Planned Parenthood and have it sucked out - no sweat.

Then when I DID get pregnant at an inconvenient time, abortion wasn't even something we discussed.  The talk was whether we were going to get married or not - the baby was definitely going to be born.


----------



## morganj614

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> You know, when I was a kid, I never gave abortion a second thought.  It was no more consequential to me than clipping my fingernails, and I figured if I ever got pregnant at an inconvenient time I'd just run on down to the Planned Parenthood and have it sucked out - no sweat.
> Then when I DID get pregnant at an inconvenient time, abortion wasn't even something we discussed.  The talk was whether we were going to get married or not - the baby was definitely going to be born.



I never gave it a thought either when I was told I needed to have one. I never gave adoption a thought either when told I needed to do that.. My 1st pregnancy was not convienent and I made the right choice for me. 
I know people that have done both and it was right for them but they had the choice and made a decision based on the pros and cons of the options.


----------



## kwillia

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Okay....
> 
> There's no "both sides" - abortion is what it is.  I didn't say anything to my children about right or wrong - they asked what abortion was and I said, "It's when a woman is pregnant and doesn't want to have the baby, so she has a doctor vacuum it out of her and throws it away."
> 
> Plain and simple.  I didn't say, "But this is WRONG!" - they caught that on their own.  Now that they're older, they know exactly how I feel about it.


Exactly... I have only ever been pregnant twice in my life and both times were planned, however, I cannot think of anytime in my life where I would of felt abortion was the choice for me should I of ended up pregnant unexpectedly, but I do believe that every woman should have the option to make that choice for herself.


----------



## migtig

*What a Great Tread*

And the childhood memories it brought back.  My mother was a "hippie" all the way.  I probably attended more protests, rallies and marches before the age of 5 than most folks have in their entire lives.   

Some things I remember from those events- my mom getting punched in the face and blood spewing out all over me, my mom getting arrested and my dad coming and getting me while leaving my mom in jail lmao: now), running at a frantic pace with a mob of people and getting lost and separated from my mom, getting hit with a flying brick and going to the hospital in an ambulance.  Heck and those are only a few of my pre-teen memories.  Some are much much worse.  

I don't care how good the cause or how safe the event is supposed to be, if a child is not old enough to fend for themselves without adult supervision, they should never be taken to anything like that.  My mom always told me afterwards that it was a worthy event and nothing bad was supposed to have happened to me or her.    As the saying goes, the highway to hell is paved with good intentions.


----------



## vraiblonde

migtig said:
			
		

> And the childhood memories it brought back.  My mother was a "hippie" all the way.


A-HA!  



> I don't care how good the cause or how safe the event is supposed to be, if a child is not old enough to fend for themselves without adult supervision, they should never be taken to anything like that.


Completely agree.  Remember that protest in Germany or somewhere where that little girl got punched in the face by the cop and the photo was all over the news?


----------



## kingpl2

kwillia said:
			
		

> Exactly... I have only ever been pregnant twice in my life and both times were planned, however, I cannot think of anytime in my life where I would of felt abortion was the choice for me should I of ended up pregnant unexpectedly, but I do believe that every woman should have the option to make that choice for herself.




It's amazing...woman do not have 2 hearts four legs and four arms they are making the "choice" to kill someone else not even themselves..why is that so hard to understand.. some people just want it to be ok to kill someone else..


----------



## kingpl2

explaining what abortion is, does not involve explaining what sex is. Therein lies the problem pro-abortion people want to have sex and remove the natural consequences of their actions - which is another reason it should be against the civil law again because it is against natural law
 please inform yourself listen to this..talk by Jim Sedlak here  http://smclife.org/


----------



## DoWhat

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> explaining what abortion is, does not involve explaining what sex is. Therein lies the problem pro-abortion people want to have sex and remove the natural consequences of their actions - which is another reason it should be against the civil law again because it is against natural law
> please inform yourself listen to this..talk by Jim Sedlak here  http://smclife.org/


*:bangbangbang:*


----------



## kingpl2

Interesting that you say the worst thing that could possibly happen is a child getting killed that was the worst thing you could think of...and that is exactly what happens every time the "choice" to abort the offspring is made..


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> explaining what abortion is, does not involve explaining what sex is. Therein lies the problem pro-abortion people want to have sex and remove the natural consequences of their actions - which is another reason it should be against the civil law again because it is against natural law
> please inform yourself listen to this..talk by Jim Sedlak here  http://smclife.org/




This does not explain away the ugliness that children that young have no need to be aware of, and anyone who is telling their children about something like this at that age is seriously warped.


----------



## kingpl2

No. Abortion is killing the life within the mother so the mother won't experience the same consequences she would experieince if she births rather than kills the baby. She believes the consequences will be better for her.  Often she learns differently after she buys into the lie..I suggest SILENTNOMORE awareness campaign look it up

.  but it is always "a poverty to decide a child must die so that you may live as you wish" Mother Teresa said


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> This stopped being friendly when you said "I think sucking a baby out of the womb is far more freaky."
> 
> Your comment was divisive and it polarized the discussion. This is not a black and white issue. 10% of people believe in their view without regard to any other opinions and they are called radicals. The other 80% of us are somewhere between and are willing to listen to other points of view and form our own opinions.
> 
> When you use shock statements, you galvanize everyone. You now have your 10%, but you lost the other %90. When I drove past the site of the protest on my way home, I looked at all of the crosses and thought of you. I will not listen to someone who shows his radical side by being intentionally offensive.


 if the truth is offensive it is not turth that must change.
america will reject abortion when america sees abortion.... you want to hide information so people are not " polarized " by the facts.
if the truth is offensive it is not turth that must change.
If you want it to be legal to kill innocent people then just say so directly


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> Well, that was silly.  Everybody knows that some people out there think abortion is wrong.  So, the only thing you accomplished is proving that you're freaks, and a buch of little kids asking "Mommy, what's abortion?".


 this thread is proof of why the chain was held


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> america will reject abortion when america sees abortion....



Why can't you wait until "america" is old enough to know the facts of life, and the consequences?  Why do 6 year olds need to know?


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> this thread is proof of why the chain was held



You're not making any sense at all.


----------



## kingpl2

Danzig said:
			
		

> Children ARE NOT protesting against it. They have no clue what it all means. Their retarded parents are protesting it and using their child as a pawn. I could take my kid to a rally to legalize crack but it does not mean he is for legalizing crack it just means his father is a crack head.
> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


 so children are less human than you? ...children can't protest? you obviously have had little experieince with kids. natural protesters of injustice especially to themselves


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> You're not making any sense at all.


 The purpose of the Life Chain was to educate people to make informed choices, to change hearts and minds and to cause discussions - that is all happening even on this thread.  Parents should teach their kids about their environment.  In the US MD even we live in a culture of death and must teach our kids how to bring about a culture of life...we must teach our kids to hate evil and love God and all life that comes from Him alone.

check this out listen to Jim Sedlak www.smclife.org


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> Why can't you wait until "america" is old enough to know the facts of life, and the consequences?  Why do 6 year olds need to know?


 I recommend explaining to your 6 yr old what poison is and why it's harmful
I recommend explaining to your 6 yr old what abortion is and why it's harmful but in this case only when he or she asks..when it comes up as a result of the environment they are exposed to.


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I recommend explaining to your 6 yr old what poison is and why it's harmful
> I recommend explaining to your 6 yr old what abortion is and why it's harmful but in this case only when he or she asks..when it comes up as a result of the environment they are exposed to.




Explaining poison to a 6 year old is perfectly normal, because I want her to avoid poisoning  herself.  Not much chance of her getting knocked up at 6 years old.  Your argument doesn't hold water.


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> The purpose of the Life Chain was to educate people to make informed choices, to change hearts and minds and to cause discussions - that is all happening even on this thread.  Parents should teach their kids about their environment.  In the US MD even we live in a culture of death and must teach our kids how to bring about a culture of life...we must teach our kids to hate evil and love God and all life that comes from Him alone.
> 
> check this out listen to Jim Sedlak www.smclife.org




I don't believe in a diety, so your argument again, doesn't hold water.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> if the truth is offensive it is not turth that must change.
> america will reject abortion when america sees abortion.... you want to hide information so people are not " polarized " by the facts.
> if the truth is offensive it is not turth that must change.
> If you want it to be legal to kill innocent people then just say so directly



I can understand why we have to fight child pronography without studying pictures. Likewise, I can understand abortion without graphic, shocking statements. If you want to use facts, use scientific terminology instead of shocking terminology. Of course that would imply that you want to discuss the facts, not regurgitate what you heard from the pulpit.

What is turth?

Look at your keyboard. There is a little key on the left side that says shift. Learn it. Know it. Live it.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I recommend explaining to your 6 yr old what poison is and why it's harmful
> I recommend explaining to your 6 yr old what abortion is and why it's harmful but in this case only when he or she asks..when it comes up as a result of the environment they are exposed to.



Don't presume to tell me what I should be teaching my child. That is the ultimate hubris.


----------



## mAlice

elaine said:
			
		

> Explaining poison to a 6 year old is perfectly normal, because I want her to avoid poisoning  herself.  Not much chance of her getting knocked up at 6 years old.  Your argument doesn't hold water.





> 6 year olds carrying an... 10-28-2005 01:13 PM Does RoseRed help you with all your opins?



RoseRed has nothing to do with my opinions.  Care to explain why you'd ask that?  Are you a total moron and don't know that I have kids?  You think I need a "practicing mommy" to clue me in, that I've somehow forgotten how it's done?


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> I don't believe in a diety, so your argument again, doesn't hold water.


 Even if you omit the reference to the creator the statements stand on their own due to natural law.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> Don't presume to tell me what I should be teaching my child. That is the ultimate hubris.


 So you are telling me what to do?


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> So you are telling me what to do?



I'll try to put it into smaller words you might understand. I told you what not to do. Do not tell me what to teach my child. Use a dictionary and look up hubris.


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 tell me what we're debating here, because we seem to have two different things going on.  Do you want to argue abortion, or do you want to argue about how other people raise their children?  Because, they are two different things.  Pick one, but don't confuse one with the other.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> I can understand why we have to fight child pronography without studying pictures. Likewise, I can understand abortion without graphic, shocking statements. If you want to use facts, use scientific terminology instead of shocking terminology. Of course that would imply that you want to discuss the facts, not regurgitate what you heard from the pulpit.
> 
> What is turth?
> 
> Look at your keyboard. There is a little key on the left side that says shift. Learn it. Know it. Live it.


 In science we use photographs extensively as data. To reject the data because it does not meet our preconcieved bias is not scientific. The theory must change to meet the data.  Instead it seems you wish to ignore or not review the data for because it is disturbing. The photos are disturbing because abortion is disturbing. It is not my branch of science- but medical science now uses tiny video cameras to see what before remained hidden. The same is done on the space shuttle missions since STS-01.


----------



## MMDad

elaine said:
			
		

> kingpl2 tell me what we're debating here, because we seem to have two different things going on.  Do you want to argue abortion, or do you want to argue about how other people raise their children?  Because, they are two different things.  Pick one, but don't confuse one with the other.



This isn't a debate, because that requires considering opposing arguments. He is only willing to regurgitate what is said on the pulpit. Reasonable thought is a dangerous thing to these people.


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> kingpl2 tell me what we're debating here, because we seem to have two different things going on.  Do you want to argue abortion, or do you want to argue about how other people raise their children?  Because, they are two different things.  Pick one, but don't confuse one with the other.


 I am educating about abortion and it's effect on society in this case 6yr old kids.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> This isn't a debate, because that requires considering opposing arguments. He is only willing to regurgitate what is said on the pulpit. Reasonable thought is a dangerous thing to these people.


 MMdad please tell me what is reasonable about killing an innocent human being?


----------



## mAlice

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I am educating about abortion and it's effect on society in this case 6yr old kids.




You may have the last word, I refuse to have a discussion with a box of rocks.


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> kingpl2 tell me what we're debating here, because we seem to have two different things going on.  Do you want to argue abortion, or do you want to argue about how other people raise their children?  Because, they are two different things.  Pick one, but don't confuse one with the other.


 Why do you reference someone you do not believe in.
You say, Like on Judgment day God isn't gonna look at people and say ,,Yea but you kept doing it over and over like it was insurance coverage. ~gumbo


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> You may have the last word, I refuse to have a discussion with a box of rocks.


 http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/
www.smclife.org


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> *You may have the last word*, I refuse to have a discussion with a box of rocks.



Bill O'Reilly says that at the end of every show!


----------



## kingpl2

itsbob said:
			
		

> and if abortion wasn't legal, an alternative, what would the women do that did not want the child??  Have it anyways??  No.. they would find other ways.. lets see in the past.. there were letting their boyfriends hit and kick them in the stomach hoping to cause miscarriage.. there were dirty metal hangers.. illegal abortion clinics on kitchen tables... or in dirty hourly rate hotels.. OR it can be legal, in a clean and sterile environment where the chances of the young girls survivale are better then 50 50....


 You are misinformed. Please learn about Dr. Bernard Nathanson would made up statistics regarding the number of "back alley abortion deaths" as a scare tactic when he was National Abortion Rights Action Leagues head.  He is now pro-life.

Did you know that ther are absolutely NO health inspection requirements for any abortion clinic in the state of MD..there are inspection reqs for veterinary clinics and hospitals but not for abortions facilities.  How does that help?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I am educating about abortion and it's effect on society in this case 6yr old kids.


 Dear King,

 Are you a teacher? What university did you attend? Can I see a copy of your certificate? 

 Oh, wait, you must be a doctor. In which state/s are you licensed to practice? What is your area of specialty?

 Thanks,
 Crabcake


----------



## kingpl2

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> So why not 'pray' in the first place?  If you believe and have faith why should you need more than prayer?  Did another David Koresh come about your group and say "I've spoken to God and he wants us to protest!"?


 We did pray in the first place. Prayer in our cction is also required


----------



## DoWhat

King,
Do you believe in birth control?


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> Your statement is purposefully shocking. It defeats your purpose. You have just made everyone who is either pro-choice or nuetral shy away from your view. Why not trying to use logical discussion to persuade?


 The only logic fault made here, is because it disturbs you throw out that evidence.


----------



## kingpl2

DoWhat said:
			
		

> King,
> Do you believe in birth control?


 Yes I believe it exists.  Did you listen to the talk yet about the origin and purpose of planned parnethood?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> The only logic fault made here, is because it disturbs you throw out that evidence.


 If the only way you can "prove your case" is to throw out pictures of aborted fetuses, your battle was lost from the start.


----------



## crabcake

*Bump*



			
				crabcake said:
			
		

> Dear King,
> 
> Are you a teacher? What university did you attend? Can I see a copy of your certificate?
> 
> Oh, wait, you must be a doctor. In which state/s are you licensed to practice? What is your area of specialty?
> 
> Thanks,
> Crabcake


----------



## Fred Hoeck

I was at the Life Chain, I did not see any children "forced" to stand on the road in witness to pro-life.  Neither have I ever seen any children complaining about marching for life in DC.  They know at some level that they have fewer playmates due to abortion.  They are members of the survivor generation, those that were born after January 1973.  So, the children were not there by force and the weather was not that cold.
I think the complaints about children participating in the life chain are a smoke screen to generate a pro-abortion stance.
Calling people who disagree with you on this or any other topic as "retards" is not condusive to intelligent debate.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> Dear King,
> 
> Are you a teacher? What university did you attend? Can I see a copy of your certificate?
> 
> Oh, wait, you must be a doctor. In which state/s are you licensed to practice? What is your area of specialty?
> 
> Thanks,
> Crabcake


 Yes I am teacher.... I attended the University of MD.... You may if you wish.... I said I am a scientist not a doctor.


----------



## mAlice

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> I was at the Life Chain, I did not see any children "forced" to stand on the road in witness to pro-life.  Neither have I ever seen any children complaining about marching for life in DC.  They know at some level that they have fewer playmates due to abortion.  They are members of the survivor generation, those that were born after January 1973.  So, the children were not there by force and the weather was not that cold.
> I think the complaints about children participating in the life chain are a smoke screen to generate a pro-abortion stance.
> Calling people who disagree with you on this or any other topic as "retards" is not condusive to intelligent debate.




Fred, you don't get it either.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> If the only way you can "prove your case" is to throw out pictures of aborted fetuses, your battle was lost from the start.


 Why is it necessary for you to disregard photographic (including ultrasonic) evidence?


----------



## crabcake

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> I was at the Life Chain, I did not see any children "forced" to stand on the road in witness to pro-life. Neither have I ever seen any children complaining about marching for life in DC. They know at some level that they have fewer playmates due to abortion. They are members of the survivor generation, those that were born after January 1973. So, the children were not there by force and the weather was not that cold.
> I think the complaints about children participating in the life chain are a smoke screen to generate a pro-abortion stance.
> Calling people who disagree with you on this or any other topic as "retards" is not condusive to intelligent debate.


 I'm sure the parents of these kids said, "*Little Suzy, do you want to go stand with me while I look like a moron on the side of the street holding signs to protest the sucking out of a fetus from a woman's uterus* ... or would you rather stay home and play with your friends today?" ... and I'm sure little Suzy said, "Sure mom! I'll go with you."


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Yes I am teacher.... I attended the University of MD.... You may if you wish.... I said I am a scientist not a doctor.


 And what exactly do you teach? And where?


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> Fred, you don't get it either.


 Maybe what you are really saying is you wish our society was different so abortion would not have to be protested and then ultimately explained to youngsters..?


----------



## mAlice

crabcake said:
			
		

> And what exactly do you teach? And where?



You know why people are evasive like this, don't you?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Why is it necessary for you to disregard photographic (including ultrasonic) evidence?


 Why is it necessary for you to feel you have the right to show that kind of thing to MY child?


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> And what exactly do you teach? And where?


 I am teaching right here on this thread,  I teach the truth on any subject matter I am sure of.


----------



## MMDad

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why is it necessary for you to feel you have the right to show that kind of thing to MY child?



Because their boy touching priest told them to? Because they are arrogant?


----------



## mAlice

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why is it necessary for you to feel you have the right to show that kind of thing to MY child?




You can't discuss this with them.  They're talking about two different issues as if they were one and the same.  They're not intelligent enough to differentiate between the two.

You may as well


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> You know why people are evasive like this, don't you?



Why? Thrill me!


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Maybe what you are really saying is you wish our society was different so abortion would not have to be protested and then ultimately explained to youngsters..?


 I think it's sad that certain "members" (and I'm being nice there) of society wish to take my child's education matters into _their own_ hands and choose for me when my child should learn about this. 

 You don't raise my child; you don't know what her developmental level is, or whether she can even comprehend what she is hearing. So who are you to decide she SHOULD know about this right now. 

 I think -- having opted to _not_ abort her, and having raised her ... spending damn near every day of her life with her by my side ... that I just might know her a little better than you, and when it is/is not appropriate to discuss the matter with her. 

 If you wanted to parent children so bad and have that option, you should've had some or more.


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I am teaching right here on this thread,  I teach the truth on any subject matter I am sure of.


 Clue: "Holier than thou" attitudes don't do well 'round these parts.


----------



## Fred Hoeck

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm sure the parents of these kids said, "*Little Suzy, do you want to go stand with me while I look like a moron on the side of the street holding signs to protest the sucking out of a fetus from a woman's uterus* ... or would you rather stay home and play with your friends today?" ... and I'm sure little Suzy said, "Sure mom! I'll go with you."


Again, you can not have a serious discusion without making disparaging comments about the people you disagree with.  Would you call workers picketing a plant or business "morons" or "retards" if you were on the businesses side?  Would you like people to say them same of you?

As I said, the children know what is going on at the level they can handle it.  It seems that the pro-abortion crowd can't handle seeing pro-life signs, they hit a nerve because no matter what people may say, deep down, they know abortion is wrong.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why is it necessary for you to feel you have the right to show that kind of thing to MY child?


 There were NO pictures of aborted fetuses at the life chain on 235 in Lex Park Sunday.  The word abortion was on most signs.  Your child did not see any graphic picture of abortion results but if it's so OK what would be wrong with seeing what you say is OK and up to the mother?


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> Clue: "Holier than thou" attitudes don't do well 'round these parts.


 so you are trying to teach me are you not?


----------



## crabcake

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> It seems that the pro-abortion crowd can't handle seeing pro-life signs, they hit a nerve because no matter what people may say, deep down, they know abortion is wrong.


 And just who are you to judge me what I feel is/is not right for me?  I thought judging the actions of others was a  in your book?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> There were NO pictures of aborted fetuses at the life chain on 235 in Lex Park Sunday. The word abortion was on most signs. Your child did not see any graphic picture of abortion results but if it's so OK what would be wrong with seeing what you say is OK and up to the mother?


 Would it be okay to be across the street, holding up signs that say the 'F' word? :shrug:

 You people should be more concerned with what goes on in your own homes vs what goes on in others. My experience is that those who preach about the home life of others, tend to have the leakiest roof.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> And just who are you to judge me what I feel is/is not right for me?  I thought judging the actions of others was a  in your book?


 What is right is not a matter of, right for one person and not right for another person. It's called objective morality. Abortion is wrong for everyone because it takes an innocent life. It is an objective moral evil.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> Would it be okay to be across the street, holding up signs that say the 'F' word? :shrug:
> 
> You people should be more concerned with what goes on in your own homes vs what goes on in others. My experience is that those who preach about the home life of others, tend to have the leakiest roof.


 If that is true it must be true in your case too and I am glad you are talking about it so you can get the help you need


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> What is right is not a matter of, right for one person and not right for another person. It's called objective morality. Abortion is wrong for everyone because it takes an innocent life. It is an objective moral evil.


 You didn't answer my question. Who are you to judge? Your book tells you not to do that, correct?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> If that is true it must be true in your case too and I am glad you are talking about it so you can get the help you need


 I don't need help. I haven't nor would I have an abortion. But I don't believe I have the right to judge someone else for what they feel is right for them; and if you are a Christian person, neither do you.

 Would you appreciate me standing in front of your home holding up signs that denounce Christianity?


----------



## mAlice

crabcake said:
			
		

> Would it be okay to be across the street, holding up signs that say the 'F' word? :shrug:




I can think of several choice words I'd like to introduce their children to next time they form a daisy chain.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> What is right is not a matter of, right for one person and not right for another person. It's called objective morality. Abortion is wrong for everyone because it takes an innocent life. It is an objective moral evil.



Once again you show your arrogance. You want to inflict your morals onto the public because you are holier-than-thou and percieve yourself to be more intelligent. We don't want you to baby sit us.


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> I can think of several choice words I'd like to introduce their children to next time they form a daisy chain.


   

 I'd like to see 'em explain  to their kids the signs I'd hold up stating why their parents are hypocrites.


----------



## MMDad

Woo-hoo! I got anonymous red! I must be doing something right if they don't have the courage to sign it!


----------



## Fred Hoeck

MMDad said:
			
		

> Once again you show your arrogance. You want to inflict your morals onto the public because you are holier-than-thou and percieve yourself to be more intelligent. We don't want you to baby sit us.


You are trying to inflict your morals on us.  The innocent, unborn child does not get a choice!  He/she is not asked if they want to live or be chopped up and thrown out.
And the Gospel says that when one is going astray, the rest of us must fratererly correct them, first privately, them with a small group, and then to the entire community.


----------



## mAlice

I'm not one for protests, but I think I'd like standing across the street from them holding signs to educate their children.


----------



## Makavide

elaine said:
			
		

> I can think of several choice words I'd like to introduce their children to next time they form a daisy chain.



There were a few people who decided to "introduce choice" words while driving by.  And I explained to my kids again,as I have in the past, that people us those words out of ignorance.  They have a limited vocabulary due to lack of education and or social graces.


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> There were a few people who decided to "introduce choice" words while driving by.  And I explained to my kids again,as I have in the past, that people us those words out of ignorance.  They have a limited vocabulary due to lack of education and or social graces.




Oh, you misunderstand me completely.  I wouldn't swear at all.


----------



## MMDad

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> You are trying to inflict your morals on us.  The innocent, unborn child does not get a choice!  He/she is not asked if they want to live or be chopped up and thrown out.
> And the Gospel says that when one is going astray, the rest of us must fratererly correct them, first privately, them with a small group, and then to the entire community.



Arrogant again. You are pushing your gospel onto people who don't want you to. Fortunately, the constitution protects my right to believe as I want. You are no different than the crusaders, or the Islamic extremists who believe it's my way or the highway.


----------



## Pete

MMDad said:
			
		

> Woo-hoo! I got anonymous red! I must be doing something right if they don't have the courage to sign it!


Dude, you really need to get over the red unsigned karma thing.


----------



## tomchamp

MMDad said:
			
		

> Arrogant again. You are pushing your gospel onto people who don't want you to. Fortunately, the constitution protects my right to believe as I want. You are no different than the crusaders, or the Islamic extremists who believe it's my way or the highway.



Did the crusaders have highways?


----------



## crabcake

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> You are trying to inflict your morals on us. The innocent, unborn child does not get a choice! He/she is not asked if they want to live or be chopped up and thrown out.
> And the Gospel says that when one is going astray, the rest of us must fratererly correct them, first privately, them with a small group, and then to the entire community.


 You're assuming everyone shares your beliefs, and in doing so, you are sorely mistaken. Just because you hold in your hand a book that you believe in that tells you to do something doesn't make you a police officer; I didn't elect you to represent me; and I didn't choose you to have a child with. :shrug:


----------



## mAlice

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> You are trying to inflict your morals on us.



Well.  If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black!


----------



## meme

Okay I'm lost.  Is this a post about "is it right for a 6 year old to carry anti-abortion signs or is this about prochoice/proabortion?"


----------



## MMDad

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Did the crusaders have highways?



Yes. The Romans built them, so they were there.


----------



## mAlice

meme said:
			
		

> Okay I'm lost.  Is this a post about "is it right for a 6 year old to carry anti-abortion signs or is this about prochoice/proabortion?"




It's about "is it right for a 6 year old to carry anti-abortion sign and should my child have to see that as we drive down the road, but some people can't make the distiction between the two.


----------



## meme

elaine said:
			
		

> It's about "is it right for a 6 year old to carry anti-abortion sign and should my child have to see that as we drive down the road, but some people can't make the distiction between the two.



That's what I thought.  Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## getthefacts

crabcake said:
			
		

> I don't believe I have the right to judge someone else for what they feel is right for them



So if I "feel" something is right and/or moral to do then it is o.k. for me to do it? 

Adolf Hitler would be the first one to tell you that he "felt" it was right to kill several million jews.


----------



## BuddyLee

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> if the truth is offensive it is not turth that must change.
> america will reject abortion when america sees abortion.... you want to hide information so people are not " polarized " by the facts.
> if the truth is offensive it is not turth that must change.
> If you want it to be legal to kill innocent people then just say so directly


What an idiot!  You're saying that everyone should know everything possible.  Some people should know squat to protect the interests of others.  Children shouldn't know certain things, they're children.  I don't know what's worse, abortion or the killing of a childs innocence at a young age.


----------



## tomchamp

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> What an idiot!  You're saying that everyone should know everything possible.  Some people should know squat to protect the interests of others.  Children shouldn't know certain things, they're children.  I don't know what's worse, abortion or the killing of a childs innocence at a young age.



Abortion is way worse!


----------



## crabcake

I'm curious ... would it be morally okay for me to stand on a street and hold up Pro-Pornography signs in an effort to increase awareness to the various ways in which a couple could experience "lovely relations"?


----------



## crabcake

getthefacts said:
			
		

> So if I "feel" something is right and/or moral to do then it is o.k. for me to do it?
> 
> Adolf Hitler would be the first one to tell you that he "felt" it was right to kill several million jews.


 I didn't say that. I said I do not possess the right to tell someone else what they should/shouldn't do with their bodies; and neither do you.

 And you SURELY lack the right to determine when it's appropriate to educate my child to such matters. Now, if you wanna start coughing up some bucks for child support, that's a different matter.


----------



## MMDad

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm curious ... would it be morally okay for me to stand on a street and hold up Pro-Pornography signs in an effort to increase awareness to the various ways in which a couple could experience "lovely relations"?



Following the zealot logic, only if you have your six year old holding the sign.


----------



## BuddyLee

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Even if you omit the reference to the creator the statements stand on their own due to natural law.


Natural law comes down to self interest. If you cannot defend _yourself_ then you're screwed. You automatically sign a 'social contract' to have protection from the state, you are supposedly 'safe' now. If you're using 'natural law' then let it be natural law, it is then the people's own self interest and not yours imposing upon theirs.


----------



## tomchamp

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm curious ... would it be morally okay for me to stand on a street and hold up Pro-Pornography signs in an effort to increase awareness to the various ways in which a couple could experience "lovely relations"?



You do have the right to do just that, but answer your own question? What it be morally ok?


----------



## crabcake

tomchamp said:
			
		

> You do have the right to do just that, but answer your own question? What it be morally ok?


 This isn't a dance-off. I'm asking those of you who feel what you've done/are doing in respect to subjecting children to abortion at an obviously inappropriate age if it is okay.


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> You do have the right to do just that, but answer your own question? What it be morally ok?




Starting your weekend early, TC?


----------



## tomchamp

crabcake said:
			
		

> This isn't a dance-off. I'm asking those of you who feel what you've done/are doing in respect to subjecting children to abortion at an obviously inappropriate age if it is okay.



You do care so much about the ones that already have had the chance to LIVE. What about the ones who never were born to even ask?


----------



## MMDad

The funny thing about this thread is that it sounds like almost everyone here is anti-abortion. The only difference is that there are a few zealots who want to parent our children for us. Their arrogance has offended most of us so much that they are driving people away from their objective. Good job.


----------



## crabcake

tomchamp said:
			
		

> You do care so much about the ones that already have had the chance to LIVE. What about the ones who never were born to even ask?


 Why do you keep dodging the question, Tom?  Just answer it.


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> You do care so much about the ones that already have had the chance to LIVE. What about the ones who never were born to even ask?



The children that are gone are gone.  We can do nothing for them.  The children that are living are the topic of discussion.  If you want to discuss abortion, then you may as well jump on the daisy chain.


----------



## getthefacts

crabcake said:
			
		

> I do not possess the right to tell someone else what they should/shouldn't do with their bodies; and neither do you.



An unborn baby is not part of the body of the mothers. The baby inside the mother has it's own physical body and soul completely separate of the mothers. 

So according to your own words, it o.k. for us to "tell someone else" that it is wrong to have an abortion. Who else is going to speak for the child who can't speak for himself.


----------



## tomchamp

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why do you keep dodging the question, Tom?  Just answer it.



What is the question?


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> An unborn baby is not part of the body of the mothers. The baby inside the mother has it's own physical body and soul completely separate of the mothers.
> 
> So according to your own words, it o.k. for us to "tell someone else" that it is wrong to have an abortion. Who else is going to speak for the child who can't speak for himself.




Why do you people keep making this discussion about abortion?


----------



## getthefacts

elaine said:
			
		

> Why do you people keep making this discussion about abortion?



I see 6-year olds selling cookies at Wal Mart all the time. No one complains about using children to make money. This discusion has been about abortion from the beginning or it never would have been started.


----------



## BuddyLee

*And I quote once again...*

In trying to do what you want or what you think is right you also do many other things which you do not mean to do, you're initial act is not pure, it has costs.

From Levinas:

"The comedy begins with the simplest of our movements, each of which carries with it an inevitable awkwardness. In putting out my hand to approach a chair, I have creased the sleeve of my jacket. I have scratched the floor, I have dropped the ash from my cigarette. In doing that which I wanted to do, I have done so many things I did not want. The act has not been pure, for I have left some traces. In wiping out these traces, I have left others. Sherlock Holmes will apply his science to this irreducible coarseness of each of my initiatives and thereby, the comedy may well turn tragic. When the awkwardness of the act turns against the goal pursued, we are at the height of tragedy."


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> I see 6-year olds selling cookies at Wal Mart all the time. No one complains about using children to make money. This discusion has been about abortion from the beginning or it never would have been started.




I hope you don't have children.


----------



## BuddyLee

getthefacts said:
			
		

> An unborn baby is not part of the body of the mothers. The baby inside the mother has it's own physical body and soul completely separate of the mothers.


But who created that?  If you create you thus have the right, also to destroy.


----------



## getthefacts

MMDad said:
			
		

> The funny thing about this thread is that it sounds like almost everyone here is anti-abortion.



You don't really believe that do you? Last time I checked the statistics most people in the United States believe that abortion is wrong and should be made illegal or very difficult to use.


----------



## getthefacts

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> But who created that?  If you create you thus have the right, also to destroy.



Logically then, if I call up your Dad right now and offer him a hundred bucks to end your life then you wouldn't have a problem with that?


----------



## crabcake

MMDad said:
			
		

> The funny thing about this thread is that it sounds like almost everyone here is anti-abortion. The only difference is that there are a few zealots who want to parent our children for us. Their arrogance has offended most of us so much that they are driving people away from their objective. Good job.


 You're _almost_ right. Personally, I'm anti-abortion for myself, and I would hope no one I love or care about would have one ...

_however ... _that doesn't give me the right to tell them what to do because every situation is different and every person has different circumstances; therefore, my stance is pro-choice.


----------



## tomchamp

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> But who created that?  If you create you thus have the right, also to destroy.



Who the #### said that?


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> You don't really believe that do you? Last time I checked the statistics most people in the United States believe that abortion is wrong and should be made illegal or very difficult to use.




 








:boxorox:


----------



## getthefacts

elaine said:
			
		

> I hope you don't have children.



I only have five children. They all know in their hearts that abortion is murder and therefore abortion is wrong.


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> Logically then, if I call up your Dad right now and offer him a hundred bucks to end your life then you wouldn't have a problem with that?




I bet he'd do it for fifty.


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> I only have five children. They all know in their hearts that abortion is murder and therefore abortion is wrong.



I pity your children, and I mean that in the nicest way.


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> I bet he'd do it for fifty.



Why would he waste 25 bucks?


----------



## getthefacts

crabcake said:
			
		

> You're _almost_ right. Personally, I'm anti-abortion for myself, and I would hope no one I love or care about would have one ...
> 
> _however ... _that doesn't give me the right to tell them what to do because every situation is different and every person has different circumstances; therefore, my stance is pro-choice.



You sound like John Kerry. I'm personnaly opposed to murder but if you want to murder somebody then that's your free choice. Either you want to defend life or you want to kill the unborn. There is no middle ground.


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Who the #### said that?



BuddyLee said it, TC.


----------



## MMDad

getthefacts said:
			
		

> You don't really believe that do you? Last time I checked the statistics most people in the United States believe that abortion is wrong and should be made illegal or very difficult to use.



Isn't that what I said?


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> You sound like John Kerry. I'm personnaly opposed to murder but if you want to murder somebody then that's your free choice. Either you want to defend life or you want to kill the unborn. There is no middle ground.




Oh, so if someone murders your children, then they shouldn't get the death penalty?


----------



## BuddyLee

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Who the #### said that?


Frankenstien.



			
				elaine said:
			
		

> I bet he'd do it for fifty.


Probably.


----------



## MMDad

crabcake said:
			
		

> You're _almost_ right. Personally, I'm anti-abortion for myself, and I would hope no one I love or care about would have one ...
> 
> _however ... _that doesn't give me the right to tell them what to do because every situation is different and every person has different circumstances; therefore, my stance is pro-choice.



That is what most people on here have said, including me.


----------



## getthefacts

elaine said:
			
		

> Oh, so if someone murders your children, then they shouldn't get the death penalty?



I don't believe in the death penalty either. They should be punished but killing them itsn't going to help me or them. Who knows, maybe after they spend 20 years in jail they will realize what they did was wrong and seek forgiveness and possibly save their soul from eternal damnation.


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> I hope you don't have robots.


 fixed


----------



## mAlice

getthefacts said:
			
		

> I don't believe in the death penalty either. They should be punished but killing them itsn't going to help me or them. Who knows, maybe after they spend 20 years in jail they will realize what they did was wrong and seek forgiveness and possibly save their soul from eternal damnation.




If there were such a thing, I'd prefer the eternal damnation.  What planet do you live on?


----------



## tomchamp

elaine said:
			
		

> The children that are gone are gone.  We can do nothing for them.  The children that are living are the topic of discussion.  If you want to discuss abortion, then you may as well jump on the daisy chain.



Don't you mean the fetus's(sp? babies)? You called them children!


----------



## BuddyLee

getthefacts said:
			
		

> Logically then, if I call up your Dad right now and offer him a hundred bucks to end your life then you wouldn't have a problem with that?


I would have a problem with this, most would.  No one is saying this is 'right'.  However, my life rests upon my mother and her choice.  If she has the ability to bring me into this world she also has the ability to take me out of this world.  When I rest inside her and depend on her while in the womb it is her choice, I am a part of her.  If I am born, as soon as I am born I have certain rights.  I am attached to her no more, I may not ever see her again.


----------



## getthefacts

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing." - English philosopher Edmund Burke 

Or for this particular situation.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to say they personally oppose abortion but do nothing about (i.e. say they are "Pro-Choice)".


----------



## crabcake

getthefacts said:
			
		

> You sound like John Kerry. I'm personnaly opposed to murder but if you want to murder somebody then that's your free choice. Either you want to defend life or you want to kill the unborn. There is no middle ground.


   That's funny. 

 I'm not debating abortion b/c we simply have different beliefs; therefore, we'll never agree. :shrug:

 HOWEVER, when it comes to my child (who, again, I did NOT abort, mind you), I am the parent; I make the rules; I decide when it's appropriate for her to learn things and whey she's too young; and I decide whether or not to brainwash her (as you choose to do for your kids) or let her develop her own ideas of what is right or wrong in accordance with the laws. Unless you want me to stand in front of your house and display "101 Ways to Have Lovely Relations With your Significant Other" for *your* child to see, then I suggest you respect my wishes and position as MY child's parent and let me be her parent.


----------



## crabcake

MMDad said:
			
		

> That is what most people on here have said, including me.


 I know; just restating my stance for the s.


----------



## crabcake

getthefacts said:
			
		

> I don't believe in the death penalty either. They should be punished but killing them itsn't going to help me or them. Who knows, maybe after they spend 20 years in jail they will realize what they did was wrong and seek forgiveness and possibly save their soul from eternal damnation.


  I thought the phrase "eye for an eye" appeared in the good book.


----------



## Makavide

So, at what age is okay to teach about abortion?

And if I want to protest what I find offensive, without the possiblity of injuring whomever, where do I go?


----------



## mAlice

tomchamp said:
			
		

> Don't you mean the fetus's(sp? babies)? You called them children!



I'm talking about children in general.  I'm talking about how we raise our children.  I'm not talking about abortion.  Get a freakin' clue.


----------



## Makavide

crabcake said:
			
		

> That's funny.
> 
> I'm not debating abortion b/c we simply have different beliefs; therefore, we'll never agree. :shrug:
> 
> HOWEVER, when it comes to my child (who, again, I did NOT abort, mind you), I am the parent; I make the rules; I decide when it's appropriate for her to learn things and whey she's too young; and I decide whether or not to brainwash her (as you choose to do for your kids) or let her develop her own ideas of what is right or wrong in accordance with the laws. Unless you want me to stand in front of your house and display "101 Ways to Have Lovely Relations With your Significant Other" for *your* child to see, then I suggest you respect my wishes and position as MY child's parent and let me be her parent.



Is your child home schooled or attend school?


----------



## getthefacts

crabcake said:
			
		

> I thought the phrase "eye for an eye" appeared in the good book.



You are correct. But Jesus tells us to love our enemies. He's the final word.


----------



## crabcake

Makavide said:
			
		

> So, at what age is okay to teach about abortion?
> 
> And if I want to protest what I find offensive, without the possiblity of injuring whomever, where do I go?


 There is no magical age. Some children may be capable of comprehending it at 10; others may be older. You can't just flash some pictures of aborted fetuses at a child and say "Ewwwww, lookie! That's bad ... bad, bad, bad! " and really expect them to understand. There's a lot more to understanding human behavior, decision-making, etc. than just throwing up flash-cards. 

 Why do you feel a need to protest anything? Again, it's not YOUR decision to make for someone else -- the decision to abort, the decision to educate children, the decision to _not_ educate children. If it's not your body or your child, and no laws are being broken, what makes YOU right? :shrug:

 And note, having the right to do something doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.


----------



## crabcake

Makavide said:
			
		

> Is your child home schooled or attend school?


 She attends school.


----------



## crabcake

getthefacts said:
			
		

> You are correct. But Jesus tells us to love our enemies. He's the final word.


 Quit dodging the question. If the bible says "an eye for an eye", and a person murders, then, according to "the good book", the murderer should receive the same fate. If you're gonna preach the book and its beliefs, you can't pick and choose which ones you wanna believe in.


----------



## Makavide

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why do you feel a need to protest anything? Again, it's not YOUR decision to make for someone else -- the decision to abort, the decision to educate children, the decision to _not_ educate children. If it's not your body or your child, and no laws are being broken, what makes YOU right? :shrug:
> 
> And note, having the right to do something doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.



And I feel the law should be changed.  Just becuase it is legal now, does not mean it will always be legal.  Just like 50 years ago segragation was legal, and 50 years before that women could not vote.  But through protest, education and such the laws were changed.  So, now you have the right to vote for the candidate who sees things your way, because others protested on your behalf.


----------



## Makavide

crabcake said:
			
		

> She attends school.



So, unless you are there 100% of the time, you can not be sure of what she will learn today.


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> So, unless you are there 100% of the time, you can not be sure of what she will learn today.




I can bet it won't be about abortion.  No...wait.   I take that back.  There's always the possibility that she's sitting next to a 6 year old, like yours, that has been told all about abortion.  

Thanks a lot.


----------



## Makavide

crabcake said:
			
		

> Quit dodging the question. If the bible says "an eye for an eye", and a person murders, then, according to "the good book", the murderer should receive the same fate. If you're gonna preach the book and its beliefs, you can't pick and choose which ones you wanna believe in.



Why not, the Catholics are doing that in the other thread "Catholics Church no longer swear by the Bible.


----------



## mAlice

Makavide said:
			
		

> Why not, the Catholics are doing that in the other thread "Catholics Church no longer swear by the Bible.




This isn't the other thread, is it?  Just admit it.  You can't answer the question.


----------



## crabcake

Makavide said:
			
		

> And I feel the law should be changed. Just becuase it is legal now, does not mean it will always be legal. Just like 50 years ago segragation was legal, and 50 years before that women could not vote. But through protest, education and such the laws were changed. So, now you have the right to vote for the candidate who sees things your way, because others protested on your behalf.


  So run for office so you can make your laws. :shrug: Or write your congressman/senator. :shrug: But in the mean time ... you gotta play by the same rules as everyone else. 



			
				Makavide said:
			
		

> So, unless you are there 100% of the time, you can not be sure of what she will learn today.


 I'm relatively confident that her 2nd grade class will not be discussing abortion or the related pros/cons anytime soon.  If I wanted her force-fed that mess, I'd send her to Catholic school.  But I have had "the talk" with her because she has asked questions, and when she comes home and asks about abortion b/c she overheard it somewhere (or if I decide she's at an age appropriate to discuss it with her), I'll explain it to her in a manner as I see fit/appropriate for her age that doesn't include pictures of aborted fetuses ... because that's MY job as her parent.


----------



## mAlice

Well, I'm outta' here.  Thanks for the distraction today.  I needed it.


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> This isn't the other thread, is it?  Just admit it.  You can't answer the question.


 :flipflop:


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> Well, I'm outta' here.  Thanks for the distraction today.  I needed it.


 Have a great weekend!


----------



## Makavide

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'll explain it to her in a manner as I see fit/appropriate for her age that doesn't include pictures of aborted fetuses ... because that's MY job as her parent.



Very good, I do agree - it is your right as a parent to discuss the issue as you see fit, at the level you believe your children can comprehend.  And I would never presume to talk to some one else's child about abortion (with out permission).  And if you drove by, you would not have seen us discussing it with others children.  We were just standing in protest agains something we feel is wrong.


----------



## getthefacts

crabcake said:
			
		

> Quit dodging the question. If the bible says "an eye for an eye", and a person murders, then, according to "the good book", the murderer should receive the same fate. If you're gonna preach the book and its beliefs, you can't pick and choose which ones you wanna believe in.



Do you know anything about Divine Revelation? 

God reveled himself to humanity in the two parts of the Bible: the Old and New Testaments. 

God gradually made himself known to men, to the point of becoming man himself, in order to draw to himself the whole world and unite it with himself through his Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. 

God’s definitive Word to mankind was Jesus Christ (in the New Testament). 

Get the facts yourself and you'll find that that's what the largest Christian denomination on earth believes.


----------



## crabcake

getthefacts said:
			
		

> Do you know anything about Divine Revelation?
> 
> God reveled himself to humanity in the two parts of the Bible: the Old and New Testaments.
> 
> God gradually made himself known to men, to the point of becoming man himself, in order to draw to himself the whole world and unite it with himself through his Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ.
> 
> God’s definitive Word to mankind was Jesus Christ (in the New Testament).
> 
> Get the facts yourself and you'll find that that's what the largest Christian denomination on earth believes.


 I'm not gonna sit here and debate religion; been there, done that. And there's really no debate necessary. It's a simple question that you insist dodging. :shrug: 

 You can believe whatever you want; that's your right.  But when you subject my kid to it by holding up signs on the side of the road, you're inflicting your beliefs on my child, and that's _not_ your right.


----------



## crabcake

Makavide said:
			
		

> Very good, I do agree - it is your right as a parent to discuss the issue as you see fit, at the level you believe your children can comprehend. And I would never presume to talk to some one else's child about abortion (with out permission). And if you drove by, you would not have seen us discussing it with others children. We were just standing in protest agains something we feel is wrong.


 What exactly did the signs say that ya'll held up ... ver batim. :shrug:


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> You didn't answer my question. Who are you to judge? Your book tells you not to do that, correct?


 Incorrect. If by "your book" you are referring to the Bible - which by the way I did not write I just read and try to heed. Jesus taught us to judge actions justly. John chapter 7 verse 24.  If you don't have a Bible you can use one online. We are however taught not to condemn and I am not condemning anyone. What do you think I am condeming you for?

There are actions that do harm to others which are wrong no matter who does them. It is object not subjective.
You are free to stand in front of my home and denounce christianity. I would gladly talk with you.


----------



## Makavide

crabcake said:
			
		

> What exactly did the signs say that ya'll held up ... ver batim. :shrug:



one sign had "Stop abortion now!"
another one was "Abortion Kills"

Those are the two I remember, I will try to find out what the others had - there were maybe 5 different sign types.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> What exactly did the signs say that ya'll held up ... ver batim. :shrug:


 I cannot tell you the content of any home-made signs and there were at least two.  The other signs read:  
1. STOP ABORTION NOW
2. ABORTION KILLS CHILDREN
3. YOU CAN'T BE CATHOLIC AND PRO-ABORTION.
4. WOMEN DESERVE BETTER
5. JESUS FORGIVES AND HEALS
6. THE NATURAL CHOICE IS LIFE
7. DEFEND LIFE
8. ABORTION IS HOMICIDE / ROCK FOR LIFE
9. ABORTION STOPS A BEATING HEART

 THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A FEW THAT READ
 ABORTION: ONE DEAD ONE WOUNDED


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Incorrect. If by "your book" you are referring to the Bible - which by the way I did not write I just read and try to heed. Jesus taught us to judge actions justly. John chapter 7 verse 24.  If you don't have a Bible you can use one online. We are however taught not to condemn and I am not condemning anyone. What do you think I am condeming you for?
> 
> There are actions that do harm to others which are wrong no matter who does them. It is object not subjective.
> You are free to stand in front of my home and denounce christianity. I would gladly talk with you.



You illeterate, ignorant, .... Never mind, i don't have to sink to your level. Don't excuse your ignorance by denying the bible. Also, don't presume to justify your actions by quoting one verse. True believers live by the whole of the bible, rather than picking the ones that suit their objectives.

Nobody ever said they would stand in front of your house and denounce Christianity, they just said they would denounce your beliefs. If you really read the New Testament, instead of listening to propoganda, you would know the difference.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> I thought the phrase "eye for an eye" appeared in the good book.


 Well if by the good book you mean the Bible        You are Correct !!      Yes an eye for an eye is taught in the old testament. Even there it was meant as temperance because what was actually happening ( and for that matter still is happening today with Jews and arabs) was when someone killed someone's brother in retaliation they would then go kill that guys whole family, in counter retaliation his relatives would go wipe out an entire village -only escalation.. The meaning was to be temperate in your response..BUT THAT WAS OLD TESTAMENT now in the new testament Jesus who is the fulfillment of the old law teaches that an eye for an eye only leaves everyone blind and toothless and that the heart of the law is mercy, turning the other cheek.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> You illeterate, ignorant, .... Never mind, i don't have to sink to your level. Don't excuse your ignorance by denying the bible. Also, don't presume to justify your actions by quoting one verse. True believers live by the whole of the bible, rather than picking the ones that suit their objectives.
> 
> Nobody ever said they would stand in front of your house and denounce Christianity, they just said they would denounce your beliefs. If you really read the New Testament, instead of listening to propoganda, you would know the difference.


 I guess when all else fails just call people names huh? Too bad name calling won't really make one's heart joyful. I live by more than just the whole Bible it is a subset of the Truth albeit a major portion. Please quote me anywhere they Bible says to not judge.   and perhaps you did not see the message but the author did say protest in front of my home to "denounce christianity"


----------



## kingpl2

elaine said:
			
		

> The children that are gone are gone.  We can do nothing for them.  The children that are living are the topic of discussion.  If you want to discuss abortion, then you may as well jump on the daisy chain.


 Correction the children who are gone we can do something for  - memorialize them.  That is what the cross display on Rt 235 at IHM is doing.


----------



## kingpl2

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> But who created that?  If you create you thus have the right, also to destroy.


 This is not true.  Gomez V Perez. After you read the case you will understand why Roe V Wade was decided after this case, even though it was before it on the supreme courts docket. It take a man's sperm fertilizing a womens egg to "make" a human being. God is still the creator we only procreate. to create is to make something from nothing we anything physical we only make.


----------



## BuddyLee

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> This is not true. Gomez V Perez. After you read the case you will understand why Roe V Wade was decided after this case, even though it was before it on the supreme courts docket. It take a man's sperm fertilizing a womens egg to "make" a human being. God is still the creator we only procreate. to create is to make something from nothing we anything physical we only make.


Therefore two people 'create' something.



> God is still the creator


 Prove it.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why is it necessary for you to feel you have the right to show that kind of thing to MY child?


 The signs were necessary to start this discussion  and stop the innocent from being killed by someone else's choice.


----------



## kingpl2

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> Therefore two people 'create' something.
> 
> Prove it.


 you are a creature, hence there must have been a creator


----------



## BuddyLee

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> you are a creature, hence there must have been a creator


Yea, my parents.


----------



## kingpl2

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> Yea, my parents.


 Carry this to the Nth degree and we have an infinity of evidence


----------



## BuddyLee

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Carry this to the Nth degree and we have an infinity of evidence


Sure, if you believe in the whales belly story among others.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I guess when all else fails just call people names huh? Too bad name calling won't really make one's heart joyful. I live by more than just the whole Bible it is a subset of the Truth albeit a major portion. Please quote me anywhere they Bible says to not judge.   and perhaps you did not see the message but the author did say protest in front of my home to "denounce christianity"



Now I understand! The Bible is a subset of the truth! You are a Mormon!


----------



## meme

I'm still trying to figure out how this got turned into an abortion debate???


----------



## MMDad

meme said:
			
		

> I'm still trying to figure out how this got turned into an abortion debate???


Because the radicals are not able to debate anything but abortion. The rest of us have been trying to debate whether or not we should be allowed to be parents.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> Now I understand! The Bible is a subset of the truth! You are a Mormon!


 I am not a mormon. Another incorrect conclusion jumped to. The Bible contains enough but not all which by the way it does say in the Bible.


----------



## meme

MMDad said:
			
		

> Because the radicals are not able to debate anything but abortion. The rest of us have been trying to debate whether or not we should be allowed to be parents.



That's exactly what I thought.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I am not a mormon. Another incorrect conclusion jumped to. The Bible contains enough but not all which by the way it does say in the Bible.



If you are not a Mormon, but you still believe that the Bible is not complete, what do you believe?


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> Because the radicals are not able to debate anything but abortion. The rest of us have been trying to debate whether or not we should be allowed to be parents.


 no one is telling you how to parent, conversly this thread was started with a statement about how I parent, what I should do or not do in others eyes (kids holding signs on 235)..who is saying you shouldn't be allowed to be parents?


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> If you are not a Mormon, but you still believe that the Bible is not complete, what do you believe?


 What do I believe about what?  9please be specific so I can be specific...I belief what is handed down to me from Jesus the God who became man. I don't decide right and wrong God does I just pass it on for the good of all.


----------



## meme

I'll tell you what I need...A    or a :martini:


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> What do I believe about what?  9please be specific so I can be specific...I belief what is handed down to me from Jesus the God who became man. I don't decide right and wrong God does I just pass it on for the good of all.




"The Bible contains enough but not all" Where do you get the rest? Is the Bible incomplete? Do you presume to know more than your god?


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> "The Bible contains enough but not all" Where do you get the rest? Is the Bible incomplete? Do you presume to know more than your god?


 The bible is not "incomplete".  I get the full deposit of faith from the church He came to establish. The Bible is part of that deposit. I did not invent it. It has been given to me...and I say again we don't decide right and wrong God does.


----------



## BuddyLee

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> and I say again we don't decide right and wrong God does.


You should have nothing to worry about then.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> The bible is not "incomplete".  I get the full deposit of faith from the church He came to establish. The Bible is part of that deposit. I did not invent it. It has been given to me...and I say again we don't decide right and wrong God does.




"The Bible contains enough but not all" This a quote from you. This means that you think that the Bible is not complete. And you portray youself as a Christian?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> and I say again we don't decide right and wrong God does.


  THAT'S RIGHT! So quit judging the actions of others as 'right' or 'wrong' and worry about your own family.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> THAT'S RIGHT! So quit judging the actions of others as 'right' or 'wrong' and worry about your own family.


 You are my family.
We are supposed to judge ourselves first then others that is the order of the teaching.
God said Thou shall not murder.  I repeat his judgement. I do not condemn. That is God's task. He does that based on what he knows he gave to each person since he created them.  The measiure we measure with will be used to measure us.  Mercy...call sin sin and good good. many people want their sin to be called good to quiet their conscience. In you saying stop judging, you are making a judgement and a command yourself.


----------



## kingpl2

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> You should have nothing to worry about then.


 Exactly!!! That is why it is a medical fact people of faith live longer on average. Jesus teaches to stop worrying have faith, everything will be provided he also teaches us to be faithful to all he has commanded. That is why we were out there being faithful


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> You are my family.
> We are supposed to judge ourselves first then others that is the order of the teaching.
> God said Thou shall not murder. I repeat his judgement. I do not condemn. That is God's task. He does that based on what he knows he gave to each person since he created them. The measiure we measure with will be used to measure us. Mercy...call sin sin and good good. many people want their sin to be called good to quiet their conscience. In you saying stop judging, you are making a judgement and a command yourself.


 You said (your) God decides what is right and what is wrong, then you say that it's okay for you to make that determination, as well. Quit backpedaling and throwing out the God-speak in a discussion that is NOT about God; it's about the inappropriateness of your message on a group that is still learning how to tie their dang shoelaces.  If you can't understand or grasp that, then I pity you AND your children. 

 And hear me clear on this: You are NOT part of my family ... I wouldn't have someone like you around my child to warp and brainwash her mind.


----------



## Kain99

You guys have broken the golden rule... "Never never let them see you sweat."


----------



## harleygirl

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> You are my family.
> We are supposed to judge ourselves first then others that is the order of the teaching.
> God said Thou shall not murder.  I repeat his judgement. I do not condemn. That is God's task. He does that based on what he knows he gave to each person since he created them.  The measiure we measure with will be used to measure us.  Mercy...call sin sin and good good. many people want their sin to be called good to quiet their conscience. In you saying stop judging, you are making a judgement and a command yourself.



Cindy? Cindy Sheehan? Is this really you?!


----------



## crabcake

Kain99 said:
			
		

> You guys have broken the golden rule... "Never never let them see you sweat."


 I'm not sweating ... my kid's not gonna need psychological counseling to deal with the nightmares from seeing pictures of aborted fetuses ... she's not gonna be called into the principal's office for talking about having babies sucked out of her innerds ... She's gonna be empowered to think for herself, make decisions about her well-being and what's best for her and be comfortable talking to me about them because she'll know that mommy won't judge or ridicule her and tell her she's going to hell.


----------



## MMDad

MMDad said:
			
		

> "The Bible contains enough but not all" This a quote from you. This means that you think that the Bible is not complete. And you portray youself as a Christian?




Do you not have an answer? Did your priest not prepare you to answer a rational question? Maybe you could ask your priest, if he's not busy touching little boys. Then you can regurgitate what you heard, since you obviously cannot think for yourself.


----------



## Kain99

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm not sweating ... my kid's not gonna need psychological counseling to deal with the nightmares from seeing pictures of aborted fetuses ... she's not gonna be called into the principal's office for talking about having babies sucked out of her innerds ... She's gonna be empowered to think for herself, make decisions about her well-being and what's best for her and be comfortable talking to me about them because she'll know that mommy won't judge or ridicule her and tell her she's going to hell.


Well... You all have validated the effectiveness of the campaign.


----------



## crabcake

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Well... You all have validated the effectiveness of the campaign.


 How so? I still don't agree with him/them in that abortion should be banned, nor do I support their stance. :shrug: The only thing he/they've achieved (in my book) is show that they have no respect for others and their beliefs.


----------



## harleygirl

crabcake said:
			
		

> How so? I still don't agree with him/them in that abortion should be banned, nor do I support their stance. :shrug: The only thing he/they've achieved (in my book) is show that they have no respect for others and their beliefs.


  We all have to live with the personal choices we make in life, good or bad, or what some think is right or wrong.  Personally, what I decide to do with my uterus is my choice.


----------



## DDoyle

bresamil said:
			
		

> I probably would not have my child in harm's way.


----------



## camily

Kain99 said:
			
		

> You guys have broken the golden rule... "Never never let them see you sweat."


----------



## camily

I'm a little late, but I'll get my two cents in. I think they can protest what ever they want, but I do agree that it is wrong to have your kids out there holding signs. I remember when I went to private school they had all of us sign a petition against abortion. Looking back I think that was an awful thing to do because you are just not informed enough to make that kind of descision at that age. I think I was 10-12. I have many horror stories from there though and that is a whole new thread.


----------



## MMDad

camily said:
			
		

> I'm a little late, but I'll get my two cents in. I think they can protest what ever they want, but I do agree that it is wrong to have your kids out there holding signs. I remember when I went to private school they had all of us sign a petition against abortion. Looking back I think that was an awful thing to do because you are just not informed enough to make that kind of descision at that age. I think I was 10-12. I have many horror stories from there though and that is a whole new thread.



I think you get it. Express your opinion to me, but don't force your opinion on my kids.

The worst thing about this whole issue is how the holier than thou types push people away by being so arrogant.


----------



## tomchamp

MMDad said:
			
		

> I think you get it. Express your opinion to me, but don't force your opinion on my kids.
> 
> The worst thing about this whole issue is how the holier than thou types push people away by being so arrogant.



I like your MPD better! I know it too! To easy!


----------



## MMDad

tomchamp said:
			
		

> I like your MPD better! I know it too! To easy!



Wow, you are the first person here to confuse me. Who do you think my MPD is? I give Vrai and Admin permission to disillusion you if you'd like to ask. My only MPD was when I first joined, messed up my email, and had to start over. If you are accusing me of something else, please elaborate.

Since you are a Bills fan, you probably aren't able to form coherent sentences, so I really don't expect a response.


----------



## camily

MMDad said:
			
		

> I think you get it. Express your opinion to me, but don't force your opinion on my kids.
> 
> The worst thing about this whole issue is how the holier than thou types push people away by being so arrogant.


Yeah, leave the kids out of it.


----------



## Fred Hoeck

camily said:
			
		

> I'm a little late, but I'll get my two cents in. I think they can protest what ever they want, but I do agree that it is wrong to have your kids out there holding signs. I remember when I went to private school they had all of us sign a petition against abortion. Looking back I think that was an awful thing to do because you are just not informed enough to make that kind of descision at that age. I think I was 10-12. I have many horror stories from there though and that is a whole new thread.


If 12 is too young to learn the consequences of sex, when!  12 is old enough to get pregnant.
Would any of you have complained if we were protesting segration in the 50-60's? or slavery in the 1850's?
Do not hide behind children demonstrating.  Children see much worse on T.V. nowadays.
It is informative to see how many people would be happy to see another killed.  Already many children who would be born with a handicap are killed, are handicapped people not of value?  Will some court, 50 years from now, legalize the killing of born people with handicaps?  You may laugh now, but who would have thought 50 years ago that abortion would be legal up until delivery?  Who would have thought that old people could be euthanized as in New Orleans?  Think about that before you are so quick to condemn people with the courage to take a stand.


----------



## MMDad

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> If 12 is too young to learn the consequences of sex, when!  12 is old enough to get pregnant.
> Would any of you have complained if we were protesting segration in the 50-60's? or slavery in the 1850's?
> Do not hide behind children demonstrating.  Children see much worse on T.V. nowadays.
> It is informative to see how many people would be happy to see another killed.  Already many children who would be born with a handicap are killed, are handicapped people not of value?  Will some court, 50 years from now, legalize the killing of born people with handicaps?  You may laugh now, but who would have thought 50 years ago that abortion would be legal up until delivery?  Who would have thought that old people could be euthanized as in New Orleans?  Think about that before you are so quick to condemn people with the courage to take a stand.



Wow, you are amazingly ignorant. The issues here are: When should my child be exposed to certain information? Who should decide when that exposure should take place?

The answers are: When they are ready for it and when their parents determine that they are ready.

You have decided that all children shall be exposed to your views, regardless of their parents judgement. That makes you a pompous ass.


----------



## crabcake

camily said:
			
		

> I remember when I went to private school they had all of us sign a petition against abortion. *Looking back I think that was an awful thing to do because you are just not informed enough to make that kind of descision at that age. I think I was 10-12.*


  And there you have it -- straight from the mouth of a (former forced) street-side protestor!  You simply cannot expect a child -- much less one 6-7 yrs old -- to grasp the depth of the message displayed on that sign. You wouldn't give a child that age a job, keys to a car, a credit card ... how do you expect them to understand something like abortion/sex/pregnancy/reproduction? :shrug:

 The REAL reason these folks have their kids out there (but are afraid to say it) is to add shock/guilt to their message ... they are parading their kids around like "Look, we didn't abort ours so you shouldn't either." There's no other justifiable or responsible reason to have these children out there on the side of a busy road. 



			
				Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> Think about that before you are so quick to condemn people with the courage to take a stand.


 I'm not condemning you for taking a stand (even though I think it's stupid). I'm condemning you for subjecting young children to adult content -- plain and simple.


----------



## MMDad

Crabcake, I'm not allowed to give you any more green right now. Thanks for being reasonable. I just wish the anti-choice Nazis were rational enough to realize that they are hurting their cause.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> I think you get it. Express your opinion to me, but don't force your opinion on my kids.
> 
> The worst thing about this whole issue is how the holier than thou types push people away by being so arrogant.


 I just want to say shame on the churches and parents that allowed their children to stand out in the cold yesterday to support a cause that they should even know about! 

These are not my words but the words that started this thread, and you have twisted that attack on me and mine, into an accusasion saying I am telling you how to parent when that is precisely how this started and what you persist in doing.  Remember you can't so,lve a problem with the same thinking that started it.


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> And there you have it -- straight from the mouth of a (former forced) street-side protestor!  You simply cannot expect a child -- much less one 6-7 yrs old -- to grasp the depth of the message displayed on that sign. You wouldn't give a child that age a job, keys to a car, a credit card ... how do you expect them to understand something like abortion/sex/pregnancy/reproduction? :shrug:
> 
> The REAL reason these folks have their kids out there (but are afraid to say it) is to add shock/guilt to their message ... they are parading their kids around like "Look, we didn't abort ours so you shouldn't either." There's no other justifiable or responsible reason to have these children out there on the side of a busy road.
> 
> 
> I'm not condemning you for taking a stand (even though I think it's stupid). I'm condemning you for subjecting young children to adult content -- plain and simple.


 Projection.  What you are so upset about I understand to be others telling you how to parent your child.  That is exactly what you are doing telling the parents of the children who were there that they should not have been. Do you acknowledge this fact?


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## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I just want to say shame on the churches and parents that allowed their children to stand out in the cold yesterday to support a cause that they should even know about!
> 
> These are not my words but the words that started this thread, and you have twisted that attack on me and mine, into an accusasion saying I am telling you how to parent when that is precisely how this started and what you persist in doing. Remember you can't so,lve a problem with the same thinking that started it.


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## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Projection. What you are so upset about I understand to be others telling you how to parent your child. That is exactly what you are doing telling the parents of the children who were there that they should not have been. Do you acknowledge this fact?


  What they wanna do with their kids is their business. :shrug: So long as they don't go to school and talk to my kid about it, I don't care what they brand of  they brainwash their kid with. :shrug:

 But yes, I DO think that 6-7 year olds have no place out there on the road at an abortion protest. But it's from a common sense standpoint ... not a crutch under my left armpit called "religion".


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## MMDad

crabcake said:
			
		

>



Arrgh! I still can't give you green!


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## crabcake

MMDad said:
			
		

> Arrgh! I still can't give you green!


 It's okay ... I gave you some instead.


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## kingpl2

harleygirl said:
			
		

> We all have to live with the personal choices we make in life, good or bad, or what some think is right or wrong.  Personally, what I decide to do with my uterus is my choice.


 Catchy phrase but incorrect. The hippocratic oath was changed to abort the life.  It still contains text referring to "do no harm" and one may not legally request a doctor to remove any normally functioning part of the body. This topic was part of the oral arguments of Roe V Wade.

Yes we all have choices, and every choice has it's own built in consequences. Your choice legally should end where another innocent life is involved. I can legaly curl my finger unless it happens to be on a trigger attached to a gun pointed at another human.


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## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> What they wanna do with their kids is their business. :shrug: So long as they don't go to school and talk to my kid about it, I don't care what they brand of  they brainwash their kid with. :shrug:
> 
> But yes, I DO think that 6-7 year olds have no place out there on the road at an abortion protest. But it's from a common sense standpoint ... not a crutch under my left armpit called "religion".


 I don't understand your response. Do you recognize you are doing, what you are condemning?


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## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Catchy phrase but incorrect. The hippocratic oath was changed to abort the life. It still contains text referring to "do no harm" and one may not legally request a doctor to remove any normally functioning part of the body. This topic was part of the oral arguments of Roe V Wade.
> 
> Yes we all have choices, and every choice has it's own built in consequences. Your choice legally should end where another innocent life is involved. I can legaly curl my finger unless it happens to be on a trigger attached to a gun pointed at another human.


 THIS ARGUMENT ISN'T ABOUT ABORTION!  START ANOTHER THREAD!


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## camily

Fred Hoeck said:
			
		

> If 12 is too young to learn the consequences of sex, when!  12 is old enough to get pregnant.
> Would any of you have complained if we were protesting segration in the 50-60's? or slavery in the 1850's?
> Do not hide behind children demonstrating.  Children see much worse on T.V. nowadays.
> It is informative to see how many people would be happy to see another killed.  Already many children who would be born with a handicap are killed, are handicapped people not of value?  Will some court, 50 years from now, legalize the killing of born people with handicaps?  You may laugh now, but who would have thought 50 years ago that abortion would be legal up until delivery?  Who would have thought that old people could be euthanized as in New Orleans?  Think about that before you are so quick to condemn people with the courage to take a stand.


Ok, when I was 12 it was 1985. Just so you know, I was raped by a teacher when I was 12 at this Christian school, the same people that cared enough about kids to stop abortion paddled me and said I was lying about it. Nice, huh. This private school is growing tremendously now and it makes me sick.  I guess they only care when your still in the womb.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> "The Bible contains enough but not all" This a quote from you. This means that you think that the Bible is not complete. And you portray youself as a Christian?


 Please recall there were Christians for hundreds of years before there was our Bible as canonically expressed.  Do you call yourself a Christian?


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## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> You said (your) God decides what is right and what is wrong, then you say that it's okay for you to make that determination, as well. Quit backpedaling and throwing out the God-speak in a discussion that is NOT about God; it's about the inappropriateness of your message on a group that is still learning how to tie their dang shoelaces.  If you can't understand or grasp that, then I pity you AND your children.
> 
> And hear me clear on this: You are NOT part of my family ... I wouldn't have someone like you around my child to warp and brainwash her mind.


 If you are part of the speceis Homo Sapiens whether you like it or not we are family.  It is a scientific fact we are all at leaset 52nd cousins based on number of people on the earth today.


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I don't understand your response. Do you recognize you are doing, what you are condemning?


 There are two different perspectives from which I derive my response. 

 1) Do I agree it's appropriate for those kids to be out there? No, I don't. Why? Because it's unsafe for children that young to be on the side of the road. That's the 'common sense' part of it and that's the part that I do think I have a voice in ... as a citizen, as a parent and a driver. There's no rationale reason for children to be on the side of a busy road -- period! 

 2) Do I think it's appropriate for 6-7 year olds to be involved in an abortion protest (let's say in a park near a church or something)? No, but that's for those kids' parents to decide. And I'm not going to tell them what they should/shouldn't brainwash their kids with, so long as they don't take that  to school and discuss it with other kids. :shrug:

 What's so hard to understand about that?


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> If you are part of the speceis Homo Sapiens whether you like it or not we are family. It is a scientific fact we are all at leaset 52nd cousins based on number of people on the earth today.


 In that case, I hereby disown you.  So quit forcing your beliefs on me and my child.


----------



## kingpl2

MMDad said:
			
		

> Do you not have an answer? Did your priest not prepare you to answer a rational question? Maybe you could ask your priest, if he's not busy touching little boys. Then you can regurgitate what you heard, since you obviously cannot think for yourself.


 If you have been hurt I can refer you to someone who can help you. If you are just repeating what you hear in mainstream media cause you're out of thoughtful statements, I 'll let the volley end. 

Unless you give a rational response attacking the issue instead of a person. This is the last word from this messenger...Pearls to swine...


----------



## kingpl2

crabcake said:
			
		

> There are two different perspectives from which I derive my response.
> 
> 1) Do I agree it's appropriate for those kids to be out there? No, I don't. Why? Because it's unsafe for children that young to be on the side of the road. That's the 'common sense' part of it and that's the part that I do think I have a voice in ... as a citizen, as a parent and a driver. There's no rationale reason for children to be on the side of a busy road -- period!
> 
> 2) Do I think it's appropriate for 6-7 year olds to be involved in an abortion protest (let's say in a park near a church or something)? No, but that's for those kids' parents to decide. And I'm not going to tell them what they should/shouldn't brainwash their kids with, so long as they don't take that  to school and discuss it with other kids. :shrug:
> 
> What's so hard to understand about that?


 in  1. You say you have a voice as a citizen in whether or not a parent has their child with them on the side of the road. That is the entire purpose for the sidewalk, a safe place for pedestrians. 

in 2. you say the kids shouldn't be there but that's for their parnets to decide ..(over your protest as a citizen of their parental rights)

circular


----------



## kingpl2

camily said:
			
		

> Ok, when I was 12 it was 1985. Just so you know, I was raped by a teacher when I was 12 at this Christian school, the same people that cared enough about kids to stop abortion paddled me and said I was lying about it. Nice, huh. This private school is growing tremendously now and it makes me sick.  I guess they only care when your still in the womb.


 You should go to the police to help others from getting hurt as well.  Don't make excuses that nothing will be done about it... that is another reason I was on the side of the road because of women I know who have had horrible things happen to them then to "fix it" the most horrible choice was made which only made things much worse for them in hindsight...  these are their words though not mine. I just understand the trauma of post abortion sydrome AND want the innocents spared.


----------



## Nickel

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> I just understand the trauma of post abortion sydrome


Alright Tom Cruise, how many abortions _have_ you had?  If the answer is none, and I assume that it is, then you know nothing about the trauma of post abortion syndrome.


----------



## camily

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> You should go to the police to help others from getting hurt as well.  Don't make excuses that nothing will be done about it... that is another reason I was on the side of the road because of women I know who have had horrible things happen to them then to "fix it" the most horrible choice was made which only made things much worse for them in hindsight...  these are their words though not mine. I just understand the trauma of post abortion sydrome AND want the innocents spared.


Thanks for the concern but I did go to the police. I was told that they would not persue this because there was no evidence, so save it. I do however volunteer at CAP.


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> in 1. You say you have a voice as a citizen in whether or not a parent has their child with them on the side of the road. That is the entire purpose for the sidewalk, a safe place for pedestrians.
> 
> in 2. you say the kids shouldn't be there but that's for their parnets to decide ..(over your protest as a citizen of their parental rights)
> 
> circular


 The difference is the purpose for which they are there.  They're not walking the family dog; they're not crossing the street to catch the bus. They're there to distract passersby in an effort to attract attention to their cause, which, in essence, is a danger to not only yourself, but your kids and those on the road. We have enough to do driving a car with watching the street signs, other drivers, traffic lights, etc. We don't need our attention diverted by a bunch of morons with their kids clogging up the sidewalk waving signs. 

 If you wish to brainwash your kids, that's your prerogative ... just like it's my prerogative to tell my kid that your kids _are_ in fact brainwashed and can't think for themselves. :shrug:


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> If you have been hurt I can refer you to someone who can help you.


 Lemme guess, your parish priest?


----------



## kingpl2

Nickel said:
			
		

> Alright Tom Cruise, how many abortions _have_ you had?  If the answer is none, and I assume that it is, then you know nothing about the trauma of post abortion syndrome.


 Correct I have not had an abortion (yes I have other faults). If you love someone you feel the pain they feel.  Then your read about it to try to help them, then you realize you are powerless and must rely on Him as well as professional help in many cases.  I am unable to explain why we feel the pain of those we love, are you?  To say I know nothing of the trauma is not correct. I don't have to have my leg cut off, to know it hurts either..   BTW I do realize half of those reading this have had some involvement in one statistically speaking..The object is not condemnation but rather coping after facing the truth and beginning the road to forgiveness and healing..


----------



## crabcake

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Correct I have not had an abortion (yes I have other faults). If you love someone you feel the pain they feel.


   

 What you feel is empathy; you can never feel their pain ... not in childbirth and certainly not following an abortion.


----------



## Nickel

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> If you love someone you feel the pain they feel.


No, you witness it.  I wouldn't dare to trivialize someone else's pain by saying that I, someone who has never walked in their shoes, "understand" it.  


> I don't have to have my leg cut off, to know it hurts either.


No, you don't.  But to say you understand it is being pompous.  Could you describe every single excruciating detail, from the time the blade enters the leg until the leg stops hurting?  Probably not.  And that my friend, is the difference between witnessing and understanding.  I'm not saying you have to understand someone's pain to help them through it, you only have to acknowledge it.  But presuming that you know their pain when you don't makes you a pompous ass.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Please recall there were Christians for hundreds of years before there was our Bible as canonically expressed.  Do you call yourself a Christian?



If you don't have the courage to answer the question, don't dodge it. I am a Christian, but I probably don't meet your narrow minded view as preached from your boy touching priest.


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> If you have been hurt I can refer you to someone who can help you. If you are just repeating what you hear in mainstream media cause you're out of thoughtful statements, I 'll let the volley end.
> 
> Unless you give a rational response attacking the issue instead of a person. This is the last word from this messenger...Pearls to swine...



You claim that this is your last message, then you post more. Do you not see that you are a liar, hypocrit, and arrogant jerk?


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> in  1. You say you have a voice as a citizen in whether or not a parent has their child with them on the side of the road. That is the entire purpose for the sidewalk, a safe place for pedestrians.
> 
> in 2. you say the kids shouldn't be there but that's for their parnets to decide ..(over your protest as a citizen of their parental rights)
> 
> circular



What are parnets?


----------



## MMDad

kingpl2 said:
			
		

> Catchy phrase but incorrect. The hippocratic oath was changed to abort the life.  It still contains text referring to "do no harm" and one may not legally request a doctor to remove any normally functioning part of the body. This topic was part of the oral arguments of Roe V Wade.
> 
> Yes we all have choices, and every choice has it's own built in consequences. Your choice legally should end where another innocent life is involved. I can legaly curl my finger unless it happens to be on a trigger attached to a gun pointed at another human.



You are so stupid. I can legally ask my doctor to remove my "normally functioning" left manbreast if I want to. If you want to claim to know the law, at least be somewhat intelligent. What law are you claiming?


----------



## MMDad

camily said:
			
		

> Ok, when I was 12 it was 1985. Just so you know, I was raped by a teacher when I was 12 at this Christian school, the same people that cared enough about kids to stop abortion paddled me and said I was lying about it. Nice, huh. This private school is growing tremendously now and it makes me sick.  I guess they only care when your still in the womb.



I just tried to give you green, but I can't. Thanks for being so brutally honest to these assinine idiots.


----------



## Sharon

MMDad said:
			
		

> assinine idiots



Woosh!


----------



## camily

MMDad said:
			
		

> I just tried to give you green, but I can't. Thanks for being so brutally honest to these assinine idiots.


You know, I really didn't want to go there, but when some people try to hide behind the "I'm a Christian and always right" belief it really pisses me off. I am a Christian and really, it gives us a bad name. By no means do I know everything and the only way to learn and grow is through an open mind. Anyone, Christian or nonchristian, republican or democrat whatever the situation is that follows a specific group without question, taking their beliefs or opinions as there own without first thinking things through and gathering all the facts in the worst kind of ignorant. I only shared to get the point accross that all is not always as it seems by the outward appearance, as I know firsthand.


----------



## MMDad

camily said:
			
		

> You know, I really didn't want to go there, but when some people try to hide behind the "I'm a Christian and always right" belief it really pisses me off. I am a Christian and really, it gives us a bad name. By no means do I know everything and the only way to learn and grow is through an open mind. Anyone, Christian or nonchristian, republican or democrat whatever the situation is that follows a specific group without question, taking their beliefs or opinions as there own without first thinking things through and gathering all the facts in the worst kind of ignorant. I only shared to get the point accross that all is not always as it seems by the outward appearance, as I know firsthand.



I just tried to give you green again, but I can't. You have expressed beliefs that I want to.


----------



## camily

MMDad said:
			
		

> I just tried to give you green again, but I can't. You have expressed beliefs that I want to.


Thanks. Glad to meet a like minded person, and hey, even if you weren't, I wouldn't hold that against you and try to tear you down for it.


----------

