# Gospel of Inclusion.



## JPC sr

Jesus paid the penalty for all humanity so everyone does get saved in the end, 

and it is called the Gospel of Inclusion link HERE.

It is "inclusion" because everybody is included.

Some one gives a fancy name for anything and that is another one.

The Bishop has that message correct but I do not say that he goes as far with the truth as I do.

But now it is an official doctrine.


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## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



JPC sr said:


> Jesus paid the penalty for all humanity so everyone does get saved in the end,
> 
> and it is called the Gospel of Inclusion link HERE.
> 
> It is "inclusion" because everybody is included.
> 
> Some one gives a fancy name for anything and that is another one.
> 
> The Bishop has that message correct but I do not say that he goes as far with the truth as I do.
> 
> But now it is an official doctrine.


 I just saw this report last night Sunday on some News Station telling about Bishop Pearson.

Link HERE to Dateline but that might not be the show that I saw.

It said that his very large 60,000 plus congregants shrank to nothing because those so-called "Christians" could not accept a non-vengeful God without their fire in Hell. 

Then afterwards the Bishop stuck to the truth and now his church group is gaining new congregants that are far more Christ-like Christians.


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## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



JPC sr said:


> Jesus paid the penalty for all humanity so everyone does get saved in the end,
> 
> and it is called the Gospel of Inclusion link HERE.
> 
> It is "inclusion" because everybody is included.
> 
> Some one gives a fancy name for anything and that is another one.
> 
> The Bishop has that message correct but I do not say that he goes as far with the truth as I do.
> 
> But now it is an official doctrine.


 It troubles me that so many people cling to that dead idea of Hell link HERE.

The Bible and Jesus were only talking about death and the grave but people cling to the torture of sinners like it simply has to be.

Muslims are like Christians in believing that error of people in Hell and it is not true.

Jesus paid the full price and full penalty for everybody. 

Not partial, not half payment.

Jesus died for sinners and not the righteous so sinners would be in Hell except Christ forgives them all.

It is so simple.

Now it is not just me "JPC sr" telling this because now we have a Christian Bishop teaching the salvation truth too.

Everybody gets saved.


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## camily

JPC sr said:


> It troubles me that so many people cling to that dead idea of Hell link HERE.
> 
> The Bible and Jesus were only talking about death and the grave but people cling to the torture of sinners like it simply has to be.
> 
> Muslims are like Christians in believing that error of people in Hell and it is not true.
> 
> Jesus paid the full price and full penalty for everybody.
> 
> Not partial, not half payment.
> 
> Jesus died for sinners and not the righteous so sinners would be in Hell except Christ forgives them all.
> 
> It is so simple.
> 
> Now it is not just me "JPC sr" telling this because now we have a Christian Bishop teaching the salvation truth too.
> 
> Everybody gets saved.



Talking to yourself?


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## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



JPC sr said:


> Jesus paid the penalty for all humanity so everyone does get saved in the end,
> 
> and it is called the Gospel of Inclusion link HERE.
> 
> It is "inclusion" because everybody is included.
> 
> Some one gives a fancy name for anything and that is another one.
> 
> The Bishop has that message correct but I do not say that he goes as far with the truth as I do.
> 
> But now it is an official doctrine.


 Perhaps the best place to start understanding the scripture correctly is through the Jesus Seminar of Bible scholars and associates, link HERE.

Plus there are plenty of books available through the libraries and book stores on Biblical criticism, link HERE.

The older the book the better the info because many in modern Christianity are actively trying to hide the old yet new truths from the scriptures.

There is far more and far better info then just no hell and everyone getting saved.

Those are easy and the Bible goes much deeper then that.


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## spike2763

camily said:


> Talking to yourself?



why yes, yes he is


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## Marie

*Questions*

When Christ Died he decended into hell?

The  fallen angels that breed with the daughters of men are in Tratus Hebrew for hell mentioned 5 places in scripture.

Christ talks more about hell then he ever did about heaven? (most have been pretty important to him)

Hell was orignally created for Satin and there is no redemptive plan for him.

Larger question here, ask yourself why would God provide himself the son, as an atonement for sin on the cross. Why not choose another method if he just going to give a free pass to everyone?

John 6
64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that *no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”*


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## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus,*



Marie said:


> When Christ Died he decended into hell?


 Yes, and "hell" meant the grave.

Christ died on the cross and spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave dead and then rose from the dead.

If Christ did not die then our savation is void and vain, link HERE.


			
				Marie said:
			
		

> The fallen angels that breed with the daughters of men are in Tratus Hebrew for hell mentioned 5 places in scripture.


 That is just mixed up Christian traditions but not Bible text.

The "sons of God" is just a fancy way of saying "men" with the daughters, link HERE

That is also where people stopped living so long as He changed it to 120 years old (verse 3) and it slowly decreased to 120 max.

That is why one generation is 120 years per the Bible definition of generation.





			
				Marie said:
			
		

> Christ talks more about hell then he ever did about heaven? (most have been pretty important to him)


 Hell means the grave and Christ was talking about death which mankind is so afraid of.

Jesus told and demonstrated that we do not need to fear death.





			
				Marie said:
			
		

> Hell was orignally created for Satin and there is no redemptive plan for him.


 Christian tradition teaches that but none of it is from the Bible and it is not correct.





			
				Marie said:
			
		

> Larger question here, ask yourself why would God provide himself the son, as an atonement for sin on the cross. Why not choose another method if he just going to give a free pass to everyone?


 According to the Bible God did not like giving His son but it was necessary because it was the only way to reconcile mankind to God.

God gives salvation as a free gift but not a cheap gift because it cost a fortune in order to give it away for free.

If Christ had failed then God would have been a fraud and His word would have been worthless.





			
				Marie said:
			
		

> John 6
> 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that *no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”*


 That text is a two edged sword that cuts both ways, link HERE.

It also says that those that do not come to Him is because He does not draw them or enable the people link HERE.

Therefore if anyone does not get saved then is would be a sin by God in dooming the people to hell.

So on Judgement Day every knee shall bow and confess and everyone does get saved, link HERE.

The Bible and God has a great plan with a happy ending for all.


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## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> Yes, and "hell" meant the grave.
> 
> Christ died on the cross and spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave dead and then rose from the dead.
> 
> If Christ did not die then our savation is void and vain, link HERE.
> That is just mixed up Christian traditions but not Bible text.
> 
> The "sons of God" is just a fancy way of saying "men" with the daughters, link HERE
> 
> That is also where people stopped living so long as He changed it to 120 years old (verse 3) and it slowly decreased to 120 max.
> 
> That is why one generation is 120 years per the Bible definition of generation. Hell means the grave and Christ was talking about death which mankind is so afraid of.
> 
> Jesus told and demonstrated that we do not need to fear death. Christian tradition teaches that but none of it is from the Bible and it is not correct. According to the Bible God did not like giving His son but it was necessary because it was the only way to reconcile mankind to God.
> 
> God gives salvation as a free gift but not a cheap gift because it cost a fortune in order to give it away for free.
> 
> If Christ had failed then God would have been a fraud and His word would have been worthless. That text is a two edged sword that cuts both ways, link HERE.
> 
> It also says that those that do not come to Him is because He does not draw them or enable the people link HERE.
> 
> Therefore if anyone does not get saved then is would be a sin by God in dooming the people to hell.
> 
> So on Judgement Day every knee shall bow and confess and everyone does get saved, link HERE.
> 
> The Bible and God has a great plan with a happy ending for all.


God is Holy... therefore in judgment the unholy could not enter heaven.  It is man's sin redeemed by the blood of Jesus.  The teaching that "everyone" goes to heaven regardless has been around since Jesus' day.  It is a false teaching that came from religion.

Regardless of the tons of evidence in Scripture that would counter the teaching of man that everyone goes to heaven regardless... common sense needs to kick in.  Man that rapes and murders up to the moment he dies goes to heaven where a holy God is throned????  Not likely my friends.

Jesus died for ALL MANKIND.  All mankind is responsible to believe in the Word and Work of Jesus Christ to receive what has already been accomplished.  When a person believes, change takes place by the power of the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit gives life.  I.e. those without the Spirit of God DO NOT enter heaven.  Religion is deceptive, the word of God speaks.


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> God is Holy... therefore in judgment the unholy could not enter heaven.  It is man's sin redeemed by the blood of Jesus.  The teaching that "everyone" goes to heaven regardless has been around since Jesus' day.  It is a false teaching that came from religion.
> 
> Regardless of the tons of evidence in Scripture that would counter the teaching of man that everyone goes to heaven regardless... common sense needs to kick in.  Man that rapes and murders up to the moment he dies goes to heaven where a holy God is throned????  Not likely my friends.
> 
> Jesus died for ALL MANKIND.  All mankind is responsible to believe in the Word and Work of Jesus Christ to receive what has already been accomplished.  When a person believes, change takes place by the power of the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit gives life.  I.e. those without the Spirit of God DO NOT enter heaven.  Religion is deceptive, the word of God speaks.



your word of god IS religion.


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> your word of god IS religion.


Which one?  Which religion does God name specifically in the Bible?  Outside of the JEwish nation... which religion did Jesus say belong too?


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> Which one?  Which religion does God name specifically in the Bible?  Outside of the JEwish nation... which religion did Jesus say belong too?



much of the bible was written by jews who were trying to form a new sect in response to a schism among jews wrt if jesus was the son of god.


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## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> God is Holy... therefore in judgment the unholy could not enter heaven.


 That does not come from the scriptures,

because Jesus forgives sinners (or un-Holy) and then everyone gets saved.

Jesus said to "love thy enemy" and not to torture them in a hell fire.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> It is man's sin redeemed by the blood of Jesus.


 Yes, Jesus paid the price in full for all sin for everyone.  

Forgive them even though they do not know what they are doing.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> The teaching that "everyone" goes to heaven regardless has been around since Jesus' day.


 That is very true and correct.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the salvation for all humanity.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> It is a false teaching that came from religion.


 There is much false teachings in religions but Christ did not preach a false teaching.

Love thy enemy and not to torture them in hell fire, link HERE.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Regardless of the tons of evidence in Scripture that would counter the teaching of man that everyone goes to heaven regardless... common sense needs to kick in.


 The problem with statements as above is that the poster gives no scripture and then demand the "common sense" be accepted.

The scriptures teach that Christ paid the penalty for all of humanity and our human senses can not quite understand the absolute forgiveness of sins through unconditional love, but there it is indeed.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Man that rapes and murders up to the moment he dies goes to heaven where a holy God is throned????  Not likely my friends.


 According to the Bible then after death is not the end of this life but the beginning of a new birth into the Kingdom of God.

So on Judgement Day the murderer and rapist will still face down their own past sins in the "furnace of fire" and then they will see and will believe and then they will repent with "weaping and nashing of teeth" link HERE.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Jesus died for ALL MANKIND.


 That is it.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> All mankind is responsible to believe in the Word and Work of Jesus Christ to receive what has already been accomplished.  When a person believes, change takes place by the power of the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit gives life.  I.e. those without the Spirit of God DO NOT enter heaven.  Religion is deceptive, the word of God speaks.


 This above is putting a condition when God gives unconditionally.

Salvation is a free gift. 

If one had to pay for salvation by believing then it is not free and Christ did not pay in full - but Christ did pay in full.

Unconditional love means no conditions - it is free to us receiving it.


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> much of the bible was written by jews who were trying to form a new sect in response to a schism among jews wrt if jesus was the son of god.


really?  Fascinating....  Jew first and then Gentile believed... yet new sect???


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## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> That does not come from the scriptures,
> 
> because Jesus forgives sinners (or un-Holy) and then everyone gets saved.
> 
> Jesus said to "love thy enemy" and not to torture them in a hell fire. Yes, Jesus paid the price in full for all sin for everyone.
> 
> Forgive them even though they do not know what they are doing. That is very true and correct.
> 
> Jesus was the fulfillment of the salvation for all humanity. There is much false teachings in religions but Christ did not preach a false teaching.
> 
> Love thy enemy and not to torture them in hell fire, link HERE. The problem with statements as above is that the poster gives no scripture and then demand the "common sense" be accepted.
> 
> The scriptures teach that Christ paid the penalty for all of humanity and our human senses can not quite understand the absolute forgiveness of sins through unconditional love, but there it is indeed. According to the Bible then after death is not the end of this life but the beginning of a new birth into the Kingdom of God.
> 
> So on Judgement Day the murderer and rapist will still face down their own past sins in the "furnace of fire" and then they will see and will believe and then they will repent with "weaping and nashing of teeth" link HERE. That is it. This above is putting a condition when God gives unconditionally.
> 
> Salvation is a free gift.
> 
> If one had to pay for salvation by believing then it is not free and Christ did not pay in full - but Christ did pay in full.
> 
> Unconditional love means no conditions - it is free to us receiving it.


Quote one Scripture that SPECIFICALLY WITHOUT A DOUBT says NO HELL... NO JUDGMENT...


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## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> That does not come from the scriptures,
> 
> because Jesus forgives sinners (or un-Holy) and then everyone gets saved.
> 
> Jesus said to "love thy enemy" and not to torture them in a hell fire. Yes, Jesus paid the price in full for all sin for everyone.
> 
> Forgive them even though they do not know what they are doing. That is very true and correct.
> 
> Jesus was the fulfillment of the salvation for all humanity. There is much false teachings in religions but Christ did not preach a false teaching.
> 
> Love thy enemy and not to torture them in hell fire, link HERE. The problem with statements as above is that the poster gives no scripture and then demand the "common sense" be accepted.
> 
> The scriptures teach that Christ paid the penalty for all of humanity and our human senses can not quite understand the absolute forgiveness of sins through unconditional love, but there it is indeed. According to the Bible then after death is not the end of this life but the beginning of a new birth into the Kingdom of God.
> 
> So on Judgement Day the murderer and rapist will still face down their own past sins in the "furnace of fire" and then they will see and will believe and then they will repent with "weaping and nashing of teeth" link HERE. That is it. This above is putting a condition when God gives unconditionally.
> 
> Salvation is a free gift.
> 
> If one had to pay for salvation by believing then it is not free and Christ did not pay in full - but Christ did pay in full.
> 
> Unconditional love means no conditions - it is free to us receiving it.


So, in context of the scripture you quoted, Matthew 6 in the same sermon (Matthew 6.15) does not mean anything... If I don't forgive, Jesus lied?


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> really?  Fascinating....  Jew first and then Gentile believed... yet new sect???



for a suposed man of god your history is lacking.

the majority of the jews did not believe, those that did wrote the gospels to justify and propagate their position. Reading in the context of the times is important when trying to find the true meaning of ancient works.


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> for a suposed man of god your history is lacking.
> 
> the majority of the jews did not believe, those that did wrote the gospels to justify and propagate their position. Reading in the context of the times is important when trying to find the true meaning of ancient works.


He came to that which was His own (Jews) but His own (Jews) did not receive Him, Yet to those who believed (Jews and Gentiles) in His name, he gave the right to become children of God.... (John 1.12)

As to context and times, that is the point.  Total man throughout all times have rejected the authority of God and that is why we have religious threads to go back and forth on.  

Man always "propagates" his thinking.  Godly men have "propagated" the word according to what the Spirit showed them and ungodly men have "propagated" their word according to what their spirit showed them.


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## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> Quote one Scripture that SPECIFICALLY WITHOUT A DOUBT says NO HELL... NO JUDGMENT...


 Well I gave two text links in the previous post but this is my favorite link HERE.

That says: *EVERY* knee shall bow and *EVERY* tongue shall confess. *EVERYONE*, see link above.

But I must add that I am not saying there is "no hell" or "no Judgement".

Those words are simply being mis-interpreted. 

So there is a hell but it just means the common grave or tomb for the dead bodies and not a place of torture.

There is a Judgement and Judgement Day but it is not like human Judging in a Court of human laws.

The Bible discription of Judgement is best given by the entire Bible Book of Judges where the Judges teach righteousness and that is what will happen on J-Day.

The fire of torment in the Bible is a purifying fire that changes the sinner into a repentant disciple.

Fire is a symbol of the holy spirit and of righteousness but not of torture, link HERE.


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## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> Well I gave two text links in the previous post but this is my favorite link HERE.
> 
> That says: *EVERY* knee shall bow and *EVERY* tongue shall confess. *EVERYONE*, see link above.
> 
> But I must add that I am not saying there is "no hell" or "no Judgement".
> 
> Those words are simply being mis-interpreted.
> 
> So there is a hell but it just means the common grave or tomb for the dead bodies and not a place of torture.
> 
> There is a Judgement and Judgement Day but it is not like human Judging in a Court of human laws.
> 
> The Bible discription of Judgement is best given by the entire Bible Book of Judges where the Judges teach righteousness and that is what will happen on J-Day.
> 
> The fire of torment in the Bible is a purifying fire that changes the sinner into a repentant disciple.
> 
> Fire is a symbol of the holy spirit and of righteousness but not of torture, link HERE.


Revelation 22.15... "outside"... guess it takes eternity to refine those who practice falsehood to become repentant disciples after they die.

Every knee will TRULY bow and every tongue TRULY confess... how sad to do this after one dies instead of taking the blessing now and having the right to become children of God.  

[Your Scriptures listed in your messages did NOT say there is no hell (fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth) just said things we do as a result of believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our life.)


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> He came to that which was His own (Jews) but His own (Jews) did not receive Him, Yet to those who believed (Jews and Gentiles) in His name, he gave the right to become children of God.... (John 1.12)



and there you have it, a gospel written by someone who was trying to say that "if you dont believe jesus is god then you are not one of gods children" and later attributed to john to give it credence.

how do you know this annonymus work was inspired by the godly spirit and not the ungodly?


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> and there you have it, a gospel written by someone who was trying to say that "if you dont believe jesus is god then you are not one of gods children" and later attributed to john to give it credence.
> 
> how do you know this annonymus work was inspired by the godly spirit and not the ungodly?


same way you know what you believe was thought up by man.  FAITH.

Who wrote your beliefs?


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> same way you know what you believe was thought up by man.  FAITH.
> 
> Who wrote your beliefs?



noone needed to write my beliefs, my beliefs are my own.







			
				freddy said:
			
		

> Religion is deceptive, the word of God speaks.


well if an annonymus man wrote the gospel trying to convince others of his beliefs, that makes it more religon to me that word of god.


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## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> Revelation 22.15... "outside"... guess it takes eternity to refine those who practice falsehood to become repentant disciples after they die.


 I agree that it probably will take a very long time for the worse cases of humanity to come around and God will not use force so it could take a very long time for some to reach salvation even in the Judgement Day.

Revelations even says some will show repentance but then turn again after the Devil is let loose because the children of God are a stubborn bunch.

It also says the Devil will be forever tormented by the righteous fire and that the Devil will be the one everlasting reminder to us all of the debauchery that we came out of.

Sin is forgiven but never forgotten and that is what makes sin horrible.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Every knee will TRULY bow and every tongue TRULY confess... how sad to do this after one dies instead of taking the blessing now and having the right to become children of God.


 That is very true and I agree it is a very sad reality.

People do need to repent and do right now today but few will really even try.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> [Your Scriptures listed in your messages did NOT say there is no hell (fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth) just said things we do as a result of believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our life.)


 Again, I do not say there is no hell because hell only means the common grave.

It is a matter of interpretation, and a matter of faith in a loving God and not a torturing tyrant of a God.

The belief in that burning torturing "hell" is believing in a monster as their God.


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> noone needed to write my beliefs, my beliefs are my own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well if an annonymus man wrote the gospel trying to convince others of his beliefs, that makes it more religon to me that word of god.


You sound like Al Gore... you created the "I exist, therefore I am" and evolution, and atheism... etc. etc. etc.?

We are shaped by what we see and read.


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## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> I agree that it probably will take a very long time for the worse cases of humanity to come around and God will not use force so it could take a very long time for some to reach salvation even in the Judgement Day.
> 
> Revelations even says some will show repentance but then turn again after the Devil is let loose because the children of God are a stubborn bunch.
> 
> It also says the Devil will be forever tormented by the righteous fire and that the Devil will be the one everlasting reminder to us all of the debauchery that we came out of.
> 
> Sin is forgiven but never forgotten and that is what makes sin horrible. That is very true and I agree it is a very sad reality.
> 
> People do need to repent and do right now today but few will really even try. Again, I do not say there is no hell because hell only means the common grave.
> 
> It is a matter of interpretation, and a matter of faith in a loving God and not a torturing tyrant of a God.
> 
> The belief in that burning torturing "hell" is believing in a monster as their God.


It is a matter of interpretation, and a matter of faith in a loving God and not a torturing tyrant of a God.

It is a matter of interpretation based on belief....  "God is love", "God is Spirit", "God is a God of wrath"... all true in Scripture.


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> You sound like Al Gore... you created the "I exist, therefore I am" and evolution, and atheism... etc. etc. etc.?
> 
> We are shaped by what we see and read.



you asked who wrote down my beliefs, and i say no one and i never said that others thoughts haven't affected my beliefs. but at the same time none of them (or me) represented their ideas as those of god to make them carry more weight or convince others they are true.......


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> you asked who wrote down my beliefs, and i say no one and i never said that others thoughts haven't affected my beliefs. but at the same time none of them (or me) represented their ideas as those of god to make them carry more weight or convince others they are true.......


"none of them (or me) represented their ideas as those of god to make them carry more weight or convice others they are true..."  

Why do write and say so many things then?  If atheists or Christians are not trying to convice, why so many arguments?  Why would evolutionists keep other type of origin teaching out of schools and such then?  Why not let everyone choose?  

Everybody wants everybody to agree with them.... it is guised in God, gods, man, government, and such.  When I say something that burns against your belief, you immediately fire back (just like I do) ... and that is trying to "convince" others or me that I'm wrong and by default you must be right.  (The  reverse is true towards me too.)


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## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> It is a matter of interpretation, and a matter of faith in a loving God and not a torturing tyrant of a God.
> 
> It is a matter of interpretation based on belief....  "God is love", "God is Spirit", "God is a God of wrath"... all true in Scripture.


 Amen, and that is so very true and well said too.

The true creator God is said to be like our Father that cares greatly about His children, and when anyone does wrong then we get punished and often times it is a severe punishment,

but like a loving Father the real God gives punishments that lead to repentance and that teaches the errant children to act right, 

but the Father does not force it onto us.

Punishment might look and feel like force but it is only to stop the wrongdoing, while for doing right we must do the repenting ourselves or else it would be worthless.

Many if not most of humanity will not repent until the Judgement Day and then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


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## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> "none of them (or me) represented their ideas as those of god to make them carry more weight or convice others they are true..."
> 
> Why do write and say so many things then?  If atheists or Christians are not trying to convice, why so many arguments?  Why would evolutionists keep other type of origin teaching out of schools and such then?  Why not let everyone choose?
> 
> Everybody wants everybody to agree with them.... it is guised in God, gods, man, government, and such.  When I say something that burns against your belief, you immediately fire back (just like I do) ... and that is trying to "convince" others or me that I'm wrong and by default you must be right.  (The  reverse is true towards me too.)



debating something is differnet than attributing writings to god's word.

you cliam your beliefs carry more weight bc they are gods word not religion.


if you want to debate why we debate thats a differnt argument....


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## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> debating something is differnet than attributing writings to god's word.
> 
> you cliam your beliefs carry more weight bc they are gods word not religion.
> 
> 
> if you want to debate why we debate thats a differnt argument....


"you cliam your beliefs carry more weight bc they are gods word not religion."

You claim your beliefs carry more weight because they have no "religious" tone or belief but come from man alone without a need for god.

debate: n (Webster; 1992) a formal argument conducted as a contest between opposing sides...   [note this is definition 2 under noun] A contest is worthless without attributing words to god, gods, man, government, science

... afterall, if your opinion is not supported by anything than it has no weight, right?  Making a claim for god or no gods cannot come from one or it is not recognized.  The weight of atheists rests in philosophy, government, science, and history... these must be quoted in order to be recognized as "true" or "worthy of opinion" and so therefore would imply "weight" of value.

For man to say the Bible is not written by the Spirit of God... he must quote something to substantiate that claim, like "because man wrote it"... okay, who just wrote that claim?  Another man!?????  Kinda weird how that works isn't it...  

So in the end, which "man" are we going to believe?  We choose, and it is perfectly okay to choose.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> So, in context of the scripture you quoted, Matthew 6 in the same sermon (Matthew 6.15) does not mean anything... If I don't forgive, Jesus lied?


 Matthew 6:14-15 link HERE mean in this present world - now, not after death, link HERE.

We have two different equations.

One is the commandments for life in this world, 

and the second is principles that carry onto the next world.

On Judgement Day the conditions for humanity will be greatly improved.

Therefore the physical demands of this world will not exist in the next.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> Matthew 6:14-15 link HERE mean in this present world - now, not after death, link HERE.
> 
> We have two different equations.
> 
> One is the commandments for life in this world,
> 
> and the second is principles that carry onto the next world.
> 
> On Judgement Day the conditions for humanity will be greatly improved.
> 
> Therefore the physical demands of this world will not exist in the next.


Well, that is certainly convenient.  Here's hoping it works out that way.  (After all, we reap what we sow.)


----------



## fredcaudle

fredcaudle said:


> Well, that is certainly convenient.  Here's hoping it works out that way.  (After all, we reap what we sow.)


On Judgement Day the conditions for humanity will be greatly improved.  Here's a picture of judgment day (I know, just written by men who were religious and trying to dupe everyone...)

Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV) Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire


----------



## godsbutterfly

fredcaudle said:


> On Judgement Day the conditions for humanity will be greatly improved.  Here's a picture of judgment day (I know, just written by men who were religious and trying to dupe everyone...)
> 
> Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV) Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire



You are right that you're probably going to be told it's just religious propaganda. To me it is the infallible word of God and I believe God is not a man that He would lie - just as it is written. Even Satan knows the scriptures - he said so. He said "I know scripture more than all of you." It is about Faith. I don't like to "debate" God. It tends to make people not even hear what you're saying after awhile.The only way the issue will ever be settled for some is when the moment actually comes at the end of their life to face whatever comes next for them.


----------



## fredcaudle

godsbutterfly said:


> You are right that you're probably going to be told it's just religious propaganda. To me it is the infallible word of God and I believe God is not a man that He would lie - just as it is written. Even Satan knows the scriptures - he said so. He said "I know scripture more than all of you." It is about Faith. I don't like to "debate" God. It tends to make people not even hear what you're saying after awhile.The only way the issue will ever be settled for some is when the moment actually comes at the end of their life to face whatever comes next for them.


Yeah, if we quote man (that man agrees with anyway) - it is truth... quote something like the Blble and look out!  It truly is amazing how this one book has been debated, refuted, approved, disaproved, etc... but the book keeps going with 1,000's of translations that never change in meaning.  

...anywho's, ...take care.


----------



## Xaquin44

fredcaudle said:


> but the book keeps going with 1,000's of translations that never change in meaning.



ummm if they never changed in meaning then they wouldn't be different translations.


----------



## camily

Xaquin44 said:


> ummm if they never changed in meaning then they wouldn't be different translations.



They are just written differently to make it easier to understand for different people.


----------



## Xaquin44

camily said:


> They are just written differently to make it easier to understand for different people.



so they're written differently.

Meaning they're different.


----------



## camily

Xaquin44 said:


> so they're written differently.
> 
> Meaning they're different.



No, it's the same meaning with different phasing.
Ex:John 3:16 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16"For God so (A)loved the world, that He (B)gave His (C)only begotten Son, that whoever (D)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

John 3:16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


----------



## fredcaudle

Xaquin44 said:


> ummm if they never changed in meaning then they wouldn't be different translations.


I've heard many statements... but your's takes the cake.  So, Koreans speak English?  How about any other languages?  Are we so centered on English that we must have everyone in the world speak as King James era people?????

Yeah, ok.. so they are written differently... amazing how Jesus stays exactly the same in all of them though.  Amazing how the content never changes...


----------



## camily

fredcaudle said:


> I've heard many statements... but your's takes the cake.  So, Koreans speak English?  How about any other languages?  Are we so centered on English that we must have everyone in the world speak as King James era people?????
> 
> Yeah, ok.. so they are written differently... amazing how Jesus stays exactly the same in all of them though.  Amazing how the content never changes...



Hi Fred! 
Friday night and we're here. Sad, sad lives I tell ya'. It didn't always be this way. Actually, that's a good thing!


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> On Judgement Day the conditions for humanity will be greatly improved.  Here's a picture of judgment day (I know, just written by men who were religious and trying to dupe everyone...)


 I agree, and I sympathize, as I must deal with that too.


			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV) ... 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


 See that "the sea" gave up its "dead" like people were in the "sea" and not in "hell or Heaven" and it says "Hades" meaning the grave as in "death and Hades [the grave] gave up their dead" not their living in torture as prisoners of an evil God.

The resurection means from the "dead" and not resurected from a firey hell.


			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.


 It says "death and Hell" are in the fire but not burning people being tortured.

The second death means dead to sin, link HERE.

And dead to sin, link HERE.

Sin causes death and not torture in a hell fire, link HERE and the free gift is eternal life not eternal torture in hell.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


 Revelations 20:14-15 link HERE tells that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and not people.

Death is the final enemy destroyed = death where is thy sting link HERE.

Notice it says on that Day we shall ALL be changed, not some but ALL.


----------



## fredcaudle

camily said:


> Hi Fred!
> Friday night and we're here. Sad, sad lives I tell ya'. It didn't always be this way. Actually, that's a good thing!


Very sad... and to think... I must go to a birthday party tonight and here I sit!


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> I agree, and I sympathize, as I must deal with that too.
> See that "the sea" gave up its "dead" like people were in the "sea" and not in "hell or Heaven" and it says "Hades" meaning the grave as in "death and Hades [the grave] gave up their dead" not their living in torture as prisoners of an evil God.
> 
> The resurection means from the "dead" and not resurected from a firey hell.
> It says "death and Hell" are in the fire but not burning people being tortured.
> 
> The second death means dead to sin, link HERE.
> 
> And dead to sin, link HERE.
> 
> Sin causes death and not torture in a hell fire, link HERE and the free gift is eternal life not eternal torture in hell. Revelations 20:14-15 link HERE tells that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and not people.
> 
> Death is the final enemy destroyed = death where is thy sting link HERE.
> 
> Notice it says on that Day we shall ALL be changed, not some but ALL.


Verse 15... If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life (interesting book, not book of dead), he (i.e. anyone not found in the book of life) was thrown into the lake of fire.

Second death means eternal separation from God the Father.  We are all assigned to die once for sin (wages of sin is death), but Jesus paid the penalty of sin (death) and so those who profess (believe) in His name will not suffer eternal death.  (Name is in Book of Life when you profess (believe) in the name of Jesus).  

Again, God is Holy... those who sow unholiness and never ask for forgiveness and repent reap no part of a Holy God.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I agree, and I sympathize, as I must deal with that too.
> See that "the sea" gave up its "dead" like people were in the "sea" and not in "hell or Heaven" and it says "Hades" meaning the grave as in "death and Hades [the grave] gave up their dead" not their living in torture as prisoners of an evil God.
> 
> The resurection means from the "dead" and not resurected from a firey hell.
> It says "death and Hell" are in the fire but not burning people being tortured.
> 
> The second death means dead to sin, link HERE.
> 
> And dead to sin, link HERE.
> 
> Sin causes death and not torture in a hell fire, link HERE and the free gift is eternal life not eternal torture in hell. Revelations 20:14-15 link HERE tells that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and not people.
> 
> Death is the final enemy destroyed = death where is thy sting link HERE.
> 
> Notice it says on that Day we shall ALL be changed, not some but ALL.



I certainly don't want to seem rude but generally speaking doesn't fire burn (unless it's like Moses and the burning bush) and wouldn't continually being burned hurt? I would think it would be excruciating pain. I knew someone who suffered severe burns on her face and arms and she was in agony.
As for all being changed - not all change is positive! 
For me it is still a matter of God said it and I believe it. You cannot have an erasable Bible where you pick and choose only certain parts of it to suit yourself and make your point. God, by his own words, is a jealous God and that means it is all or nothing.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



fredcaudle said:


> Verse 15... If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life (interesting book, not book of dead), he (i.e. anyone not found in the book of life) was thrown into the lake of fire.
> 
> Second death means eternal separation from God the Father.  We are all assigned to die once for sin (wages of sin is death), but Jesus paid the penalty of sin (death) and so those who profess (believe) in His name will not suffer eternal death.  (Name is in Book of Life when you profess (believe) in the name of Jesus).
> 
> Again, God is Holy... those who sow unholiness and never ask for forgiveness and repent reap no part of a Holy God.


 Well I gave scripture text and link after text after link and more,

while you preach the traditional message with nothing to back it up.

So it boils down to those of us that want the deeper truths and not the comfortable truths.

The Bible says the second death means "death to sin" (see my many links in previous post) and here this poster says second death means "eternal separation" but death does not mean torture in hell as that would be living and not dead.

And "wages of sin is death" not toture in hell.

And "Book of life" not of death.

To believe as ye are told is what traditional Christianity is.

But the scriptures tells us a much better story indeed.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I certainly don't want to seem rude but generally speaking doesn't fire burn (unless it's like Moses and the burning bush) and wouldn't continually being burned hurt? I would think it would be excruciating pain.


 Natural fire burns but spiritual fire purifies.

And the burning bush of Moses that did not burn is a vivid example of Godly  fire that does not burn.





			
				godsbutterfly said:
			
		

> For me it is still a matter of God said it and I believe it. You cannot have an erasable Bible where you pick and choose only certain parts of it to suit yourself and make your point. God, by his own words, is a jealous God and that means it is all or nothing.


 If you were preaching Bible instead of Christian tradition then that might be true.

But the Bible does not say what Christian tradition is claiming.

Therefore your words are wrong too, because you put your faith in what other people say instead of seeking the truth thyself.


----------



## tommyjones

fredcaudle said:


> I've heard many statements... but your's takes the cake.  So, Koreans speak English?  How about any other languages?  Are we so centered on English that we must have everyone in the world speak as King James era people?????
> 
> Yeah, ok.. so they are written differently... amazing how Jesus stays exactly the same in all of them though.  Amazing how the content never changes...



freddy, you have got to realize that the personn who translated the KJV did so to make the king happy and to make his interpretation THE interpretation.

i mean think about it


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> Natural fire burns but spiritual fire purifies.
> 
> And the burning bush of Moses that did not burn is a vivid example of Godly  fire that does not burn. If you were preaching Bible instead of Christian tradition then that might be true.
> 
> But the Bible does not say what Christian tradition is claiming.
> 
> Therefore your words are wrong too, because you put your faith in what other people say instead of seeking the truth thyself.



I am well acquainted with Holy Ghost Fire having experienced it on numerous occasion myself. I know of it's cleansing power and of the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus Christ. I use God's Butterfly because I know he changed my life from what it was to something good. By the way - how my life changed and why is absolutely not open to debate nor would I expect anyone else's to be unless they volunteered it.  I am not perfect but I am living my life the best I can in accordance with what God's Word says so that when my life here on Earth is over I can live eternally in Heaven with Jesus Christ. That's what I believe and I can't make anybody else believe as I believe - especially not you. On the other hand - nobody - especially not you - can make me believe Hell is not the Lake of Fire and that I am misguided in the Rapture and all that will happen in the end times.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> Well I gave scripture text and link after text after link and more,
> 
> while you preach the traditional message with nothing to back it up.
> 
> So it boils down to those of us that want the deeper truths and not the comfortable truths.
> 
> The Bible says the second death means "death to sin" (see my many links in previous post) and here this poster says second death means "eternal separation" but death does not mean torture in hell as that would be living and not dead.
> 
> And "wages of sin is death" not toture in hell.
> 
> And "Book of life" not of death.
> 
> To believe as ye are told is what traditional Christianity is.
> 
> But the scriptures tells us a much better story indeed.


So it boils down to those of us that want the deeper truths and not the comfortable truths.

Hell is uncomfortable to many a folk... soft sell and candy food like Disney land sells that we "will live happily ever after" regardless of our actions down here is nonsense... 

Deeper truths... links are fine... link up to the Bible it stands on its own.


----------



## fredcaudle

tommyjones said:


> freddy, you have got to realize that the personn who translated the KJV did so to make the king happy and to make his interpretation THE interpretation.
> 
> i mean think about it


Don't know who 'freddy' is... I assume you are speaking to me?  

Sure it made the king happy... that was good.  It also runs parallel to the Greek.  It also agrees with the English versions prior to King James.  It also agrees with the Septuagint.  The king was happy... So was the King who's Spirit told the story.

So, it was a "person" who 'translated' the KJV?  And did this "person" use any manuscripts or originals to 'translate'?


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*

 I found a couple links that show Bible errors so here they are:

1)  Additions and omissions of the synoptic gospels, link HERE.

2)  Spurious changes to the Bible,  link HERE.

I took these links from another thread so I must give it link HERE.

And an old reliable info on the synoptic problem of the Gospels, link HERE.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> I found a couple links that show Bible errors so here they are:
> 
> 1)  Additions and omissions of the synoptic gospels, link HERE.
> 
> 2)  Spurious changes to the Bible,  link HERE.
> 
> I took these links from another thread so I must give it link HERE.
> 
> And an old reliable info on the synoptic problem of the Gospels, link HERE.





 Shut up ....... stupid.


----------



## ItalianScallion

I've sat out of this one too long. Fred & godsbutterfly, you' might want to know that you're in a no win forum. JPC can't see the truth and the other's refuse to see it. They all have been told repeatedly, that the Bible is not on trial here but that we all are. On judgment day, their paisley agruments against the Book will not stand up. I hope they will see & accept that before The Day. This silly notion that, because the Bible was written by man it's less credible, is sooo weak and shows NO faith in God's power; (but then they don't believe in Him anyhow so therein lies the root of their false notions). They have been told the answers but won't accept them. Anyone wanting to learn something would normally ask questions and then say "I see that or I don't". They're already accountable, so save your typing fingers. 
JPC, AGAIN, is wrong on this Synoptic Gospel issue. There is nothing that needs to be "added or removed" from them. When 4 different people tell the same story, it will be written in different ways so as to show that there was no collusion between the authors. If they were supposed to say the exact same thing, 3 of them wouldn't have been needed.
As far as King James goes, you're right. I can't see why anyone in 2007 keeps quoting the Bible in that archaic Shakespearean wording. There's nothing wrong with using *SOME* modern translations of the Bible today. 
To get back on topic, there is NO gospel of inclusion in the Bible. Some make it, many don't. JPC's misinterpretation of Romans 14 & Philippians 2 (every knee bow & tongue confess...) doesn't change God's message of judgment in Matthew 7 v 14.


----------



## godsbutterfly

ItalianScallion said:


> I've sat out of this one too long. Fred & godsbutterfly, you' might want to know that you're in a no win forum. JPC can't see the truth and the other's refuse to see it. They all have been told repeatedly, that the Bible is not on trial here but that we all are. On judgment day, their paisley agruments against the Book will not stand up. I hope they will see & accept that before The Day. This silly notion that, because the Bible was written by man it's less credible, is sooo weak and shows NO faith in God's power; (but then they don't believe in Him anyhow so therein lies the root of their false notions). They have been told the answers but won't accept them. Anyone wanting to learn something would normally ask questions and then say "I see that or I don't". They're already accountable, so save your typing fingers.
> JPC, AGAIN, is wrong on this Synoptic Gospel issue. There is nothing that needs to be "added or removed" from them. When 4 different people tell the same story, it will be written in different ways so as to show that there was no collusion between the authors. If they were supposed to say the exact same thing, 3 of them wouldn't have been needed.
> As far as King James goes, you're right. I can't see why anyone in 2007 keeps quoting the Bible in that archaic Shakespearean wording. There's nothing wrong with using *SOME* modern translations of the Bible today.
> To get back on topic, there is NO gospel of inclusion in the Bible. Some make it, many don't. JPC's misinterpretation of Romans 14 & Philippians 2 (every knee bow & tongue confess...) doesn't change God's message of judgment in Matthew 7 v 14.



I agree with you and actually I am going to be doing some praying that JPC in particular gets what amounts to a "Road to Damascus" experience before he ends up literally Dead Wrong.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



camily said:


> Talking to yourself?


 I heard and saw on a recent PBS Bill Moyer talking to Thomas Cahill link HERE and Cahill told of another Bible scholar supposition that Abraham (almost) sacrifice of Isaac link HERE marked the end of human sacrifice by the Hebrews.

In old history human sacrifice was in many if not most and maybe all human cultures and that is why the Bible shows as if it were a *normal happening* and the exception and adnormal occurance being that God stopped it and said that He God would provide the "lamb" sacrifice (Jesus Christ) link HERE and so at that time the practice of *human sacrifice was stopped by the Hebrews* and that is a big part of the untold message in that Bible account.

The Bible and history scholars and research are brillient and we need such insight if we want to learn the deeper truths. 

Those that do not seek out the full truths will indeed be left behind in darkness, and will be greatly surprised on our Judgement Day.


----------



## somdprincess

JPC sr said:


> Yes, and "hell" meant the grave.
> 
> Christ died on the cross and spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave dead and then rose from the dead.
> 
> If Christ did not die then our savation is void and vain, link HERE.
> That is just mixed up Christian traditions but not Bible text.
> 
> The "sons of God" is just a fancy way of saying "men" with the daughters, link HERE
> 
> That is also where people stopped living so long as He changed it to 120 years old (verse 3) and it slowly decreased to 120 max.
> 
> That is why one generation is 120 years per the Bible definition of generation. Hell means the grave and Christ was talking about death which mankind is so afraid of.
> 
> Jesus told and demonstrated that we do not need to fear death. Christian tradition teaches that but none of it is from the Bible and it is not correct. According to the Bible God did not like giving His son but it was necessary because it was the only way to reconcile mankind to God.
> 
> God gives salvation as a free gift but not a cheap gift because it cost a fortune in order to give it away for free.
> 
> If Christ had failed then God would have been a fraud and His word would have been worthless. That text is a two edged sword that cuts both ways, link HERE.
> 
> It also says that those that do not come to Him is because He does not draw them or enable the people link HERE.
> 
> Therefore if anyone does not get saved then is would be a sin by God in dooming the people to hell.
> 
> So on Judgement Day every knee shall bow and confess and everyone does get saved, link HERE.
> 
> The Bible and God has a great plan with a happy ending for all.



You are weird, weird and scary.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



somdprincess said:


> You are weird, weird and scary.


 Religion is scary to most people,

and the messages of the Bible are weird by any honest perspective.

So I am agreeing with you that I probably am weird and scary in many ways.

In fact I apreciate your honesty and how you express your feelings so matter-of-factly.

It appears to me that this is one of the great advantages of the Internet Forum,

that most posters are annonymous while my identity is plainly told and on the Internet there is no intimidations by threats or violence,

so one can give beliefs and express one-self here while such communications do not much happen in real company since society is so tense.

My final point being is that even though I may be weird and scary - at the same time I am completely harmless.


----------



## somdprincess

JPC sr said:


> Religion is scary to most people,
> 
> and the messages of the Bible are weird by any honest perspective.
> 
> So I am agreeing with you that I probably am weird and scary in many ways.
> 
> In fact I apreciate your honesty and how you express your feelings so matter-of-factly.
> 
> It appears to me that this is one of the great advantages of the Internet Forum,
> 
> that most posters are annonymous while my identity is plainly told and on the Internet there is no intimidations by threats or violence,
> 
> so one can give beliefs and express one-self here while such communications do not much happen in real company since society is so tense.
> 
> My final point being is that even though I may be weird and scary - at the same time I am completely harmless.



well.........thats good to know.....


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



somdprincess said:


> well.........thats good to know.....


 Now I feel better too.

And your the first person I ever knew from "Candy land".

Have some flowers  and a carrot .


----------



## somdprincess

JPC sr said:


> Now I feel better too.
> 
> And your the first person I ever knew from "Candy land".
> 
> Have some flowers  and a carrot .



Thank you.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> I found a couple links that show Bible errors so here they are:
> 
> 1)  Additions and omissions of the synoptic gospels, link HERE.
> 
> 2)  Spurious changes to the Bible,  link HERE.
> 
> I took these links from another thread so I must give it link HERE.
> 
> And an old reliable info on the synoptic problem of the Gospels, link HERE.



The Bible has no errors.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



camily said:


> The Bible has no errors.


 There is a lot of truth in that statement even though it seems like a contradiction in itself.

The Bible is a wonderful Book with fantastic information.

It is really just people that are in error and not really the Bible.

Many people treat the Bible as an idol and as if the Bible has some mystical powers in itself and that is not the Bible's fault for the people's errors.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> There is a lot of truth in that statement even though it seems like a contradiction in itself.


If there were anyone who would know a truthful statement that is a contradiction, it would be you.

The Bible contains no errors.  The errors you find are in your understanding, not in the Bible.  It is not an idol, it is has no special powers.  The errors are not in the writing, but the perception of the reader - most notably on this forum, you.  

The atheists, for the most part, have a better, more accurate understanding than you do, which is why they won't debate you point for point - it's a waste of their time.  They can't prove something false to someone who doesn't get it in the first place.


----------



## Xaquin44

fredcaudle said:


> I've heard many statements... but your's takes the cake.  So, Koreans speak English?  How about any other languages?  Are we so centered on English that we must have everyone in the world speak as King James era people?????
> 
> Yeah, ok.. so they are written differently... amazing how Jesus stays exactly the same in all of them though.  Amazing how the content never changes...



-sigh-

different translations in english (you should have known what I was saying).

why bother?

If gods hand wrote it then why does it need to be translated differently (several times in english)?


----------



## Xaquin44

camily said:


> The Bible has no errors.



baaahahahhahaha


----------



## camily

Xaquin44 said:


> -sigh-
> 
> different translations in english (you should have known what I was saying).
> 
> why bother?
> 
> If gods hand wrote it then why does it need to be translated differently (several times in english)?



The King James Version makes my head spin. I understand NIV, or American Standard.


----------



## Xaquin44

camily said:


> The King James Version makes my head spin. I understand NIV, or American Standard.



They are gods holy words. Shouldn't they make sense no matter what?

It's strange how many excuses and translations and hidden meanings and old outdated ideas are in a book written (ha) by an omnipotent being.


----------



## camily

Xaquin44 said:


> They are gods holy words. Shouldn't they make sense no matter what?
> 
> It's strange how many excuses and translations and hidden meanings and old outdated ideas are in a book written (ha) by an omnipotent being.



Whatever.
Have you ever thought about believing?
Why not? What have you got to lose?
If your right, then we all just die and it's over. If I'm right, and you chose not to believe, eternity is going to suck for you.
So why not believe and spend eternity in paradise if I'm right?
Why risk it?
If you put half the effort into believing as you do into trying to prove christianity wrong, you'd be an awesome christian!


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



camily said:


> Whatever.
> Have you ever thought about believing?
> Why not? What have you got to lose?
> If your right, then we all just die and it's over. If I'm right, and you chose not to believe, eternity is going to suck for you.
> So why not believe and spend eternity in paradise if I'm right?
> Why risk it?
> If you put half the effort into believing as you do into trying to prove christianity wrong, you'd be an awesome christian!


 My belief is that it matters little what happens after death,

the "*TRUTH*" is what helps and serves us now in the present.

People need to be right and correct and we need to be certain about it and not some superficial blind faith.

We need strong and determined faith and that comes from being dead certain of what is true and correct.

And the scriptures show people how to live now in the present and now is the preparation for the after-life.

To "just believe" and "unsure blind faith" is not the right way.


----------



## Xaquin44

camily said:


> If you put half the effort into believing as you do into trying to prove christianity wrong, you'd be an awesome christian!



thats ok .... I'll just go on doing the best I can and not hope/pray I'll get some kind of payoff.


----------



## camily

Xaquin44 said:


> thats ok .... I'll just go on doing the best I can and not hope/pray I'll get some kind of payoff.



Okie dokie.


----------



## Marie

fredcaudle said:


> Which one?  Which religion does God name specifically in the Bible?  Outside of the JEwish nation... which religion did Jesus say belong too?


The Way


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> My belief is that it matters little what happens after death,
> 
> the "*TRUTH*" is what helps and serves us now in the present.
> 
> People need to be right and correct and we need to be certain about it and not some superficial blind faith.
> 
> We need strong and determined faith and that comes from being dead certain of what is true and correct.
> 
> And the scriptures show people how to live now in the present and now is the preparation for the after-life.
> 
> To "just believe" and "unsure blind faith" is not the right way.


Hey thats not scriptural, at all everything we do here, is paving the way for eternity. Its not about us, its about the honor and glory of God.

Mat 6:19  "Stop storing [or, treasuring] up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal, 
Mat 6:20  but be storing [or, treasuring] up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in nor steal, 
Mat 6:21  for where your* treasure is, there will your* heart [fig., inner desire] be also.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



Marie said:


> The Way


 I am impressed as not many people know that, link HERE and link HERE.

It is said in many other Bible text too but few seem to make the connection.

So did you know that is the connection of Jesus to the Chinese Bible called the Tao Te Ching? 

Tao te ching = "The way of integrity book".

Tao means "the Way" and for those that research it the Tao sounds much like Christ.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

More heresy from JPC, Sr.

Do not pay attention to this proclaimer of falsehoods.


----------



## ItalianScallion

Xaquin44 said:


> -sigh-
> different translations in english (you should have known what I was saying).
> If gods hand wrote it then why does it need to be translated differently (several times in english)?


2 reasons: 
1) The English language changes over the years. There are words today  
    that have a completely different meaning than they did hundreds, even 
    thousands of years ago. God's Word is still inerrant, but our words need 
    updating from time to time. Remember Shakespearean English. Well, dost 
    thou? Thank God we don't speak that way any longer! (Well most of us)
2) As time goes by, we learn how to better translate from one language to 
    another by a deeper understanding of the meaning of some words. If you  
    know anything about foreign languages, you know that almost none of 
    them translate word for word into English. The KJV is a good example of 
    translation shortcomings.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



JPC sr said:


> Jesus paid the penalty for all humanity so everyone does get saved in the end,
> 
> and it is called the Gospel of Inclusion link HERE.
> 
> It is "inclusion" because everybody is included.
> 
> Some one gives a fancy name for anything and that is another one.
> 
> The Bishop has that message correct but I do not say that he goes as far with the truth as I do.
> 
> But now it is an official doctrine.


 I do believe the point was this quote given above here,


----------



## smcop

JPC sr said:


> My belief is that it matters little what happens after death,
> 
> the "*TRUTH*" is what helps and serves us now in the present.
> 
> People need to be right and correct and we need to be certain about it and not some superficial blind faith.
> 
> We need strong and determined faith and that comes from being dead certain of what is true and correct.
> 
> And the scriptures show people how to live now in the present and now is the preparation for the after-life.
> 
> To "just believe" and "unsure blind faith" is not the right way.



I need people to be good fathers who support their family financially and emotionally reguardless of if they live with them or not so the children of the father do not end up in jail and my tax dollars are then paying to house, clothe and feed them!


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



smcop said:


> I need people to be good fathers who support their family financially and emotionally reguardless of if they live with them or not so the children of the father do not end up in jail and my tax dollars are then paying to house, clothe and feed them!


 So long as you keep trying to have others to serve your own intentions then you will always be on the wrong side.

No matter have right one is, then it is still wrong to force their intentions onto others.

Families and parents must live and proceed under their own given circumstances and the laws that take custody away from one parent and the unjust laws of child support that denegrade the separated parents and cheapen the children will forever by wrong as they are now.

I want the USA to start protecting parents and defending families which is not happening now.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> So long as you keep trying to have others to serve your own intentions then you will always be on the wrong side.
> 
> No matter have right one is, then it is still wrong to force their intentions onto others.
> 
> Families and parents must live and proceed under their own given circumstances and the laws that take custody away from one parent and the unjust laws of child support that denegrade the separated parents and cheapen the children will forever by wrong as they are now.
> 
> I want the USA to start protecting parents and defending families which is not happening now.



So what we need is a law that forces couples to remain married and allows partners to commit adultery, mentally, verbally and physically abuse each other and/or their children thereby preserving the sanctity of the family?


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



godsbutterfly said:


> So what we need is a law that forces couples to remain married and allows partners to commit adultery, mentally, verbally and physically abuse each other and/or their children thereby preserving the sanctity of the family?


 I would prefer to see a law that makes the adultery with a married person to be illegal.

The person outside the family that comes in and adulterates the marriage is the true criminal.

Like Monica Lewinski was the true criminal in the Clinton marriage as that woman tried to destroy that family but after her dirty work was done and exposed the adulterous woman walked away as if she did no wrong, link HERE.

So in the USA if some outside adulterer violates a family then the USA will grant a easy divorce and that is American law.

Like divorce is the prize or reward for some outsider violating a marriage. 

We as a society need to create laws which would protect the marriages and defend the family units.


----------



## ~mellabella~

*sooo...what you're saying is...*



JPC sr said:


> I would prefer to see a law that makes the adultery with a married person to be illegal.
> 
> The person outside the family that comes in and adulterates the marriage is the true criminal.
> 
> Like Monica Lewinski was the true criminal in the Clinton marriage as that woman tried to destroy that family but after her dirty work was done and exposed the adulterous woman walked away as if she did no wrong, link HERE.
> 
> So in the USA if some outside adulterer violates a family then the USA will grant a easy divorce and that is American law.
> 
> Like divorce is the prize or reward for some outsider violating a marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> We as a society need to create laws which would protect the marriages and defend the family units.



You don't think that both parties are guilty? Just the outsider of the affair?


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I would prefer to see a law that makes the adultery with a married person to be illegal.
> 
> The person outside the family that comes in and adulterates the marriage is the true criminal.
> 
> Like Monica Lewinski was the true criminal in the Clinton marriage as that woman tried to destroy that family but after her dirty work was done and exposed the adulterous woman walked away as if she did no wrong, link HERE.
> 
> So in the USA if some outside adulterer violates a family then the USA will grant a easy divorce and that is American law.
> 
> Like divorce is the prize or reward for some outsider violating a marriage.
> 
> We as a society need to create laws which would protect the marriages and defend the family units.



That still would not prevent further adultery from recurring within the marriage nor does it deal with the issues of repeated abuse. The spouse who is committing adultery is betraying their partner and the vows they made before God.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



~mellabella~ said:


> You don't think that both parties are guilty? Just the outsider of the affair?


 The outsider adulterer is *MORE* guilty then the married person because the outsider is violating the marriage and the family unit.

Even if we said the married cheaters were more guilty (which they are not) then for governmental laws the gov must remain neutral inside the marriage and protect the marriage and the family from outside immoral attacks as in an outsider adulterater.

The gov laws now put blame and force against a married spouse that cheats and so now we have gov laws that break up marriages and laws that divide families and that is absurd.

So attaching "guilt" is a minor issue compared to protecting the families and defending the marriages and that means we need laws that attack the outsider adulterer.


----------



## JPC sr

*Ferrous Canus, and Stupidus Giganticus.*



godsbutterfly said:


> That still would not prevent further adultery from recurring within the marriage nor does it deal with the issues of repeated abuse. The spouse who is committing adultery is betraying their partner and the vows they made before God.


 It appears you are saying that based on our society as it is now today and not how it would become if the laws were corrected to protect the family units and defended the marriages.

That would be a big change for the better if we made laws like that.

The cheating spouse now and their adulterous partners have the law protecting their dirty deeds. The worse thing that can happen is the marriage gets a divorce from the other spouse that has already been cheated once and the laws cheat the other spouse again. Then the adulterer is free to marry or to find another family to destroy.

That is our American society that gives privledge to the outsider adulterers.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*

 By sticking with the example of the President Clinton family,

then if the law were to punish the outsider adulterer woman like give Lewinski jail time, 

then everyone in the world would now know that if they cheat on Hillary then they too would go to jail and therefore that marriage would be more secure and unthreatened.

Now any woman can hit on the husband (Bill Clinton) and if he falls then it is their victory to destroy that marriage through their aduterating that family and many Republicans would cheer it on.

The same would be true in common society.

If a spouse cheats then the offended other spouse would have a legal means of protecting the marriage and the family unit against the outsider adulterer whether it is a male or female or homosexual intruder.

It is absurd that the person living in the town with everyone knowing that they cheated and the married couple can only get a divorce or live under mockery and scorn because our present laws protect and defend the adulterers and not the families.

Also I saw this info about step-family abuse link HERE and our society need to help the real family and stop promoting divorce and separations.

What we have now of easy divorce, then taking custody away from one parent, then ordering child support claiming that a real parent pays the thieves, and children being confused.

We could do better then that, but we need to do it fast.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> By sticking with the example of the President Clinton family,
> 
> then if the law were to punish the outsider adulterer woman like give Lewinski jail time,
> 
> then everyone in the world would now know that if they cheat on Hillary then they too would go to jail and therefore that marriage would be more secure and unthreatened.
> 
> Now any woman can hit on the husband (Bill Clinton) and if he falls then it is their victory to destroy that marriage through their aduterating that family and many Republicans would cheer it on.
> 
> The same would be true in common society.
> 
> If a spouse cheats then the offended other spouse would have a legal means of protecting the marriage and the family unit against the outsider adulterer whether it is a male or female or homosexual intruder.
> 
> It is absurd that the person living in the town with everyone knowing that they cheated and the married couple can only get a divorce or live under mockery and scorn because our present laws protect and defend the adulterers and not the families.
> 
> Also I saw this info about step-family abuse link HERE and our society need to help the real family and stop promoting divorce and separations.
> 
> What we have now of easy divorce, then taking custody away from one parent, then ordering child support claiming that a real parent pays the thieves, and children being confused.
> 
> We could do better then that, but we need to do it fast.



But I am still asking you what of the spouse who is physically, sexually, mentally or verbally abusing their spouse and/or child? Is that supposed to remain a shameful secret to protect the guise of a "family"? That's not a family! That's a sick and twisted nightmare. What about that scenario?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> But I am still asking you what of the spouse who is physically, sexually, mentally or verbally abusing their spouse and/or child? Is that supposed to remain a shameful secret to protect the guise of a "family"? That's not a family! That's a sick and twisted nightmare. What about that scenario?


 I guess the divorce itself will never fully go away,

so under a situation like that then a divorce and a restraining order too would be required and I agree with that.

But I do not like mis-using claims like that to mis-justify easy divorces based on the capricious whims of one spouse. 

If we are going to dig up and search out reasons for easy divorce then there are many to be found.

Thus the idea must turn to protecting and prolonging the marriage and the family units.

I use to believe that cheating was the best reason for divorce but if the law were to make adultery (by an outsider) to be against the law then that is a viable and realistic ulternative.

Many people really like Hillary Clinton and her endorsement became BIG-TIME after she stood firm and saved her marriage and she saved her family from that home wrecker woman and that is the biggest root of her popularity to this day.

Saving a marriage is a strength while a divorce marks a failure. 

So for us to build a sound society again then we need to give strength to families and to marriages so they can stand too against the immoral attacks from outsiders.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I guess the divorce itself will never fully go away,
> 
> so under a situation like that then a divorce and a restraining order too would be required and I agree with that.
> 
> But I do not like mis-using claims like that to mis-justify easy divorces based on the capricious whims of one spouse.
> 
> If we are going to dig up and search out reasons for easy divorce then there are many to be found.
> 
> Thus the idea must turn to protecting and prolonging the marriage and the family units.
> 
> I use to believe that cheating was the best reason for divorce but if the law were to make adultery (by an outsider) to be against the law then that is a viable and realistic ulternative.
> 
> Many people really like Hillary Clinton and her endorsement became BIG-TIME after she stood firm and saved her marriage and she saved her family from that home wrecker woman and that is the biggest root of her popularity to this day.
> 
> Saving a marriage is a strength while a divorce marks a failure.
> 
> So for us to build a sound society again then we need to give strength to families and to marriages so they can stand too against the immoral attacks from outsiders.



It's either divorce them or kill them and we can't exactly legalize murder either no matter how deserving the abuser might be. I do agree many people give up on marriages too easily. I meant my vows when I said them but when the time comes that your physical and mental well-being and those of your children are in danger and your spouse has already left you cannot maintain a relationship that way.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> It's either divorce them or kill them and we can't exactly legalize murder either no matter how deserving the abuser might be. I do agree many people give up on marriages too easily. I meant my vows when I said them but when the time comes that your physical and mental well-being and those of your children are in danger and your spouse has already left you cannot maintain a relationship that way.


 I do not speak about your particular marriage and not my own either,

but many if not most cases of abuse against the spouse or against the children link HERE come out of the perverted ways and laws of our present system and society.

If the laws were improved then our social situations would improve too.

The pressure and stresses that now exist could be lowered and spouses would have options that save their marriage.

Like the abuses in domestic violences today are often from persons on their second or third marriages and so they carry "rebound" baggage link HERE. And many spouses cheat because of their human weaknesses and not any real dishonest betrayal. And very many people refuse to get married because the marriage is a legal threat and marriage is being openly scorned in many ways. Even child-birth is degraded with orders that they better be able to afford the baby, or else get an abortion because our society and gov has made parenting into a type of crime.

The role of government is not really obscure. In a Capitalist system as the USA has then gov is not to be run like a business by promoting profit and growth as that is an improper gov function under Capitalism. The Capitalist gov is to minimize conflicts and discontent in the Country so that the public sector can proceed without calamity.

Marriage is a social and religious institution and the gov has taken over the Institution of marriage instead of protecting it and now the gov has turned marriage into a mess. 

And a divorce / separations are hostile acts and the gov has tried to limit the conflicts of divorce like a fool, so now the USA has easy divorce and laws that steal the children from the parents and unjust thievery as child support.

The gov's one and ONLY answer to marriage is divorce and thus the American families are suffering under our misguided laws.

We can either improve these or else let the next generation suffer under it too, and I want to change it soon.


----------



## MMDad

JPC sr said:


>



Hey quarter wit!

Marriage laws are state laws, not federal laws. You are running for the wrong office if you want to change them.


----------



## hvp05

JPC sr said:


> I do not speak about your particular marriage and not my own either


Yeah you are.  You are still angry that your wife divorced you and found someone with whom she found a true, mutual love.  And you consider her second husband to be the "adulterer" of your marriage, even though, realistically, your marriage was several years dead.



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> The role of government is not really obscure.


This is true - only not why you think it is.  As MMDad just said, the federal government is not ordained with the powers to control marriages.  It really is a shame you don't understand the office you're after.


And Jimmy, why don't you explain the dichotomy in your belief that the government should stay *out* of child support enforcement (because you want families to guide themselves), while you want the government to get *into* illegalizing adultery (because families need protection).  That doesn't seem to have come up yet, and I'm sure some of your new friends would enjoy learning that as well.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I would prefer to see a law that makes the adultery with a married person to be illegal.
> 
> The person outside the family that comes in and adulterates the marriage is the true criminal.
> 
> Like divorce is the prize or reward for some outsider violating a marriage.
> 
> We as a society need to create laws which would protect the marriages and defend the family units.


Why do you neglect as secondary the personal responsibility of the married person?

To use your oft-used Clinton issue, Bill was the one who swore an oath to his betrothed to be honest and faithful and upstanding.  HE violated that oath.  By your thoughts, the person who did NOT swear to uphold the marriage is more responsible than the person who SWORE to uphold the marriage.  That's like making the shopkeeper responsible for someone stealing his wares - because he had good wares to steal.  It makes no sense.

Do you understand that people are responsible for their own actions?


----------



## This_person

MMDad said:


> Hey quarter wit!
> 
> Marriage laws are state laws, not federal laws. You are running for the wrong office if you want to change them.


Jimmy,  MMDad brings up an excellant point here.  Do you understand that what you're proposing as the primary plank in your platform is not even achievable by becoming a US Representative?

You are actually trying to become a US Representative, right?  You're not just using this as a platform for trying to shore up support for some other run for some other office later, being dishonest to the people and disrespectful to the process, are you?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> MMDad brings up an excellant point here.  Do you understand that what you're proposing as the primary plank in your platform is not even achievable by becoming a US Representative?


  Of course I know that marriage is under State laws.

This is a "Religion" thread and we are discussing side issues.

My platform for my US Congress campaign is still the same as it is told on my campaign website, link HERE.

Marriage law reform is not one of my primary platform issues but it is still very important to me.





This_person said:


> Why do you neglect as secondary the personal responsibility of the married person?
> 
> By your [words], the person who did NOT swear to uphold the marriage is more responsible than the person who SWORE to uphold the marriage.  That's like making the shopkeeper responsible for someone stealing his wares - because he had good wares to steal.


  It is not like that at all.

The shopkeeper is like the marriage and the thief is like the adulterer.

Under the present divorce laws if an outside adulterer violates the marriage (steal from store) then the divorce laws say the store can close down - or the marriage can break up.

Your "responsibility" claim is just that you are determined to blame the victim and not the perpetrator.

If we continue to punish the spouse and divorce the family unit and do nothing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the outsider thief adulterer then we are destroying our own society by these misguided laws.

The outsider that adulterates a marriage is the thief in the store that we fail to punish.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Your "responsibility" claim is just that you are determined to blame the victim and not the perpetrator.



Funny, I thought the victim was the spouse who was cheated on. Its poetic justice then, in your eyes?


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> Of course I know that marriage is under State laws.
> 
> This is a "Religion" thread and we are discussing side issues.
> 
> My platform for my US Congress campaign is still the same as it is told on my campaign website, link HERE.
> 
> Marriage law reform is not one of my primary platform issues but it is still very important to me.  It is not like that at all.
> 
> The shopkeeper is like the marriage and the thief is like the adulterer.
> 
> Under the present divorce laws if an outside adulterer violates the marriage (steal from store) then the divorce laws say the store can close down - or the marriage can break up.
> 
> Your "responsibility" claim is just that you are determined to blame the victim and not the perpetrator.
> 
> If we continue to punish the spouse and divorce the family unit and do nothing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the outsider thief adulterer then we are destroying our own society by these misguided laws.
> 
> The outsider that adulterates a marriage is the thief in the store that we fail to punish.



And how often is "The Shopkeeper" not to be held accountable for allowing "The Thief" into the store? Why should a spouse have to risk their life thru the fear of sexually transmitted diseases such as Aids, HIV or HVP (Human Papiloma Virus that can cause cervical cancer) because the other spouse cannot seem to resist the urge to cheat over and over? Not all cheaters are concientious and considerate - Imagine That!


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> Funny, I thought the victim was the spouse who was cheated on. Its poetic justice then, in your eyes?


 I do not know what is meant by "poetic justice" but if that means to minimize the blame game then I will be a poet.

So yes the other spouse has been cheated on, and the child(ren) are also injured, so are the extended families, and I add that our society is harmed by the cheating and it is a problem for gov to address and not just to push the writ of divorce as the ONLY solution. 

Everybody is harmed as a victim after an act of adultery but the divorce is a second way of harming us all a second time. 

By your figuring it was Hillary Clinton that was the victim and I agree, but it was Hillary that saw the true enemy in the adulterous woman and Hillary did not play the "victim" and she saved her marriage and she preserved her family unit.

I am saying that we need to give that option to our general population so then the victim spouse can turn to the law to prosecute the outsider adulterer and then save their marriage and preserve their families too.

Afterwards the word would get around that if anyone cheats on her then they too would go to jail or other punishment such as money damages and then the whole town would learn fast.

Being given a divorce is not a prize, and after an outsider violates a marriage then the divorce is a second violation and not vengeance at all.

Such a change at first would hurt those now that believe adultery of married people is fair game - so let them hurt.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> And how often is "The Shopkeeper" not to be held accountable for allowing "The Thief" into the store?


 I do not have all the answers and I figure others could give suggestions too.

But it is the job of the police to stop the store from being robbed and not the Shopkeepers place.

Many spouses cheat by being made drunk or drugged or when in a vulnerable condition (like a spousal dispute) and most often the outside adulterer is a close friend or associate.

If there was a law that protected married person from adulteries then the secretary could not play dumb when the bossman is married and she wants to cheat. Neither could the neighbors say they were ignorant of the law and etc. 

Right now the shopkeeper (spouse) is robbed because there is no police and no law.





			
				godsbutterfly said:
			
		

> Why should a spouse have to risk their life thru the fear of sexually transmitted diseases such as Aids, HIV or HVP (Human Papiloma Virus that can cause cervical cancer) because the other spouse cannot seem to resist the urge to cheat over and over?


 This is what people face now because our society gives license to sin.

To protect a marriage from outside sexual disease then we need to make outside adultery against the law.

Those that get a divorce then must go to the outside themselves, so divorce is not a victory.





			
				godsbutterfly said:
			
		

> Not all cheaters are concientious and considerate - Imagine That!


  That is true now because we have social laws that permit debauchery and protect cheaters.

So to make them "concientious and considerate" we need laws that punish wrong doing and that will improve the conscience of the cheaters.

Defend the marriage and protect the family with the force of law.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I do not have all the answers and I figure others could give suggestions too.


We know you don't, and we did.

Have the person who made the oath,swearing before their mate that they'd never cheat on them, be the one MOST responsible for their actions.

Thanks for realizing that you make no sense with your answer, and that your answer leaves more questions than answers, though.


----------



## ~mellabella~

*Dare I ask???*



JPC sr said:


> Those that get a divorce then must go to the outside themselves, so divorce is not a victory.



WHY would anyone see divorce as a victory anyway? How does that make any sense? Unless you mean the freedom it gives from oppressive, abusive, cheating, & negligent spouses...but in that case you are putting blame on the spouse who is in the wrong...and that contradicts what you said earlier...

I don't believe that just anybody should be able to get a divorce, but people with extinuating cricumstance should have some leeway-FREE of judgment.


----------



## godsbutterfly

This_person said:


> We know you don't, and we did.
> 
> Have the person who made the oath,swearing before their mate that they'd never cheat on them, be the one MOST responsible for their actions.
> 
> Thanks for realizing that you make no sense with your answer, and that your answer leaves more questions than answers, though.



I agree with you completely and have been trying to make this point but it's been like trying to hug a cactus -the effort has not been worth the end result so far!


----------



## This_person

godsbutterfly said:


> I agree with you completely and have been trying to make this point but it's been like trying to hug a cactus -the effort has not been worth the end result so far!


You've clearly not been arguing with Jimmy long.  When you nail him to the wall with lies, he resorts to ignoring you and stating "I stand by all I post and all mine true and correct", and won't acknowledge his inaccuracies and lies.    Most people will fully agree arguing with him is worthless.  For some reason, I can't stop - it's like some kind of drug I can't get shake.  His idiocy and lunacy draw me in with almost every post.


----------



## godsbutterfly

This_person said:


> You've clearly not been arguing with Jimmy long.  When you nail him to the wall with lies, he resorts to ignoring you and stating "I stand by all I post and all mine true and correct", and won't acknowledge his inaccuracies and lies.    Most people will fully agree arguing with him is worthless.  For some reason, I can't stop - it's like some kind of drug I can't get shake.  His idiocy and lunacy draw me in with almost every post.



I know what you mean. I just keep thinking if I show enough examples or ask enough questions to back  myself up it will turn him around. He did acknowledge that we would never be able to get rid of divorce completely. Do I get half a point for that? Come on! Throw me a crumb!


----------



## This_person

godsbutterfly said:


> I know what you mean. I just keep thinking if I show enough examples or ask enough questions to back  myself up it will turn him around. He did acknowledge that we would never be able to get rid of divorce completely. Do I get half a point for that? Come on! Throw me a crumb!


  Just wait, though.  He'll either deny ever saying that, say just the opposite, or *both*!  He's admitted that parents are both responsible for their kids, and then said the non-custodial parent has no moral responsibility.  He's said that his son was not his immediate family because he didn't live with him, then said he WAS immediate family and I was twisting his words, and then reiterated that he was NOT immediate family and that's why JPC wasn't violating a Christian family value.  He's said he deserted his family, then denied saying he deserted his family, then (when linked to his own quote) said that it was a twist of his words (he must have been twisting them himself ).

I laugh, but I truly worry for his sanity.  I believe he is delusional and grossly out of touch with reality.  His sparks of anger tell me he possibly could be a danger to himself or others, and I believe he should be taken off of the streets for everyone's safety.  But, quite frankly, I don't want to pay for it, and he doesn't threaten me enough yet to do anything about it.                  Yet.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

You two are gluttons for punishment. I have given up on JPC. I think he is truly delusional and incapable of understanding when he is incorrect.


----------



## godsbutterfly

2ndAmendment said:


> You two are gluttons for punishment. I have given up on JPC. I think he is truly delusional and incapable of understanding when he is incorrect.



It concerns me that somebody might actually be misled by what he posts.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I agree with you [T_p] completely and have been trying to make this point but it's been like trying to hug a cactus -the effort has not been worth the end result so far!


 One needs to have some vision to see what could be and vision to see improvements.

This is the religion thread after all.

But if you only want to complain and criticize an idea of improving the situation then you got the best buddy for that in T_p.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> One needs to have some vision to see what could be and vision to see improvements.
> 
> This is the religion thread after all.
> 
> But if you only want to complain and criticize an idea of improving the situation then you got the best buddy for that in T_p.



I do have vision and I am open to new ideas and improvements. If you think I don't because I don't agree with everything you say then I'm sorry you feel that way. My only "complaint" with you is that you don't seem to ever want to acknowledge that somebody else might have a valid point except for you. No person is ever 100% right all of the time.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I do have vision and I am open to new ideas and improvements. If you think I don't because I don't agree with everything you say then I'm sorry you feel that way. My only "complaint" with you is that you don't seem to ever want to acknowledge that somebody else might have a valid point except for you. No person is ever 100% right all of the time.


 Having two eyes that physically see is not religious vision.

I agreed with you that we will surely always have divorce so I gave your valid point.

It is you being obstinant.

I figure you are afraid the fools here will call you names, and the red karma is more than you can handle.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> Having two eyes that physically see is not religious vision.
> 
> I agreed with you that we will surely always have divorce so I gave your valid point.
> 
> It is you being obstinant.
> 
> I figure you are afraid the fools here will call you names, and the red karma is more than you can handle.



I live my life for God and I have been called a lot worse than obstinate and survived it. I stand firm on my beliefs and I do not betray them regardless of any criticism or ridicule. I listen to what others have to say and if their point is something I consider valid I will acknowledge their point is valid.  I have received red karma before.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I live my life for God and I have been called a lot worse than obstinate and survived it. I stand firm on my beliefs and I do not betray them regardless of any criticism or ridicule. I listen to what others have to say and if their point is something I consider valid I will acknowledge their point is valid.  I have received red karma before.


 So your religious belief is that we must have divorces and trying to save the marriage instead of divorce is me being invalid?

But you and T_p say blame the spouse that cheats and grant divorce and keep breaking up the families is your religious point here?

And my idea that we give the marriages another chance to save their families like the Hillary Clinton family did - is some how wrong?

Those are questions and not accusations.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> WHY would anyone see divorce as a victory anyway? How does that make any sense?


  Divorce is presented like some kind of reward for the spouse that got cheated on.

So if a married person cheats then the gov will give the victim spouse an easier divorce as if they get a victory over the cheating spouse by sticking them with a divorce.

What I did say was that granting a divorce is NOT a victory and it is a nasty reward too.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> So your religious belief is that we must have divorces and trying to save the marriage instead of divorce is me being invalid?
> 
> But you and T_p say blame the spouse that cheats and grant divorce and keep breaking up the families is your religious point here?
> 
> And my idea that we give the marriages another chance to save their families like the Hillary Clinton family did - is some how wrong?
> 
> Those are questions and not accusations.



No, my religious belief is that  there comes a time when you cannot save the marriage if the unbeliever is going to continue to committ adultery and to even leave the home to set up a "lovenest" with somebody else. That was in my personal situation. For my general belief I think that your notion to punish the adulterer who is outside of the marriage and let the adulterer who is inside of the marriage go free is unacceptable. That adulterer made vows before God and before their spouse and must be held accountable for breaking those vows. I am not talking about a public flogging but he/she must acknowledge the wrong they have committed because it does take two to committ adultery and the defense of "They seduced me!" is bull!


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> So your religious belief is that we must have divorces and trying to save the marriage instead of divorce is me being invalid?
> 
> But you and T_p say blame the spouse that cheats and grant divorce and keep breaking up the families is your religious point here?
> 
> And my idea that we give the marriages another chance to save their families like the Hillary Clinton family did - is some how wrong?
> 
> Those are questions and not accusations.


Jimmy, as usual your lack of reading comprehension skills have hurt you.

No one says that trying to save a marriage is bad.  No one says that divorce is the first or best answer.

However, when someone cheats on their spouse, they are the ones at fault far more than the person they cheated with.  To use your common test case, Monica is not the one who vowed to Hillary on a marriage certificate that she would remain faithful and true.  Bill did.  Bill is the one at fault.  Monica knew he was married, and so she's wrong too. But not as wrong as Bill.  She may have been tempting to him, but it was his fault he failed to meet the test.

You are wrong when you place very little or no blame on the people who do the most wrong.  This is true with illegal aliens, with parents who refuse to support their children, with cheating spouses - with everything that I've read by you regarding any personal accountability.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Jimmy, as usual your lack of reading comprehension skills have hurt you.


  You keep repeating this same childish nonsense so you must think it is clever or some thing.

I do not see where you have any superiority in that regard.





			
				This_person said:
			
		

> Monica is not the one who vowed to Hillary on a marriage certificate that she would remain faithful and true.  Bill did.  Bill is the one at fault.  Monica knew he was married, and so she's wrong too. But not as wrong as Bill.  She may have been tempting to him, but it was his fault he failed to meet the test.


 The BIG point of me refering to the Clinton issue is because from then till now it is Hillary that has profitted from the feasco because Hillary knew what really mattered and Hillary did the right thing, and now it is Hillary that could be the first female President of the USA and many of us morally conscious persons say it is because Hillary was strongest when she defended her marriage and Hillary protected her family from the outside adulterous woman.

If Hillary had been nieve enough to believe that divorce garbage then she would have failed and her family destroyed and surely she would be in no position to run for election if the populace had seen Monica taking Hillary down.

I am saying to look and see the big example of power in virtue done by Hillary Clinton by rejecting divorce.

Believe thy eyes instead of thy filthy opinion.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Divorce is presented like some kind of reward for the spouse that got cheated on.
> 
> 
> 
> What I did say was that granting a divorce is NOT a victory and it is a nasty reward too.



I know some people divorce for the wrong reasons, and yeah they run their spouse for all they've got. But not all people divorce for the money, some divorce for the sake of their mental/physical wellbeing. In that case, divorce is not a reward.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> You keep repeating this same childish nonsense so you must think it is clever or some thing.
> 
> I do not see where you have any superiority in that regard.


My "superiority" is not that at all.  I'm just capable of reading and comprehending what people write, and you don't seem to be able to do that.  I repeat it because you repeatedly offend.





> The BIG point of me refering to the Clinton issue is because from then till now it is Hillary that has profitted from the feasco.  I am saying to look and see the big example of power in virtue done by Hillary Clinton by rejecting divorce.


Great, she didn't get divorced.  She looked the other way, again and again and again and again and again when Bill cheated on her.  That's her "victory".

But, you didn't address the whole concept behind what I was saying (see why I question your reading comprehension skills?) regarding personal responsibility.  Monica didn't swear in front of God, family, friends, and on a legal document that she would be faithful to Hillary.  Bill did.  He's the one that violated the marriage vows, because he's the one that MADE the marriage vows.

Saving marriages when it can be done is great, I agree.  But, put the blame where it belongs.  

You also failed to note whether you recognize that you make this personal responsibility mistake repeatedly.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


>


 I understand you, 

but I see your opinions are filthy and sinful.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I understand you,


No, I don't think that you do





> but I see your opinions are filthy and sinful.


What is filthy or sinful about recognizing that the one who takes an oath is the one responsible for fullfilling that oath?

I'll even give you kudos for Hillary sticking by Bill time after time after time after time of his infidelities.  She did not get divorced.  

But, what does that have to do with it being Bill who is the one who swore in front of God, family, friends, and on a document that he wouldn't perform those infidelities, and thus it is Bill who was in the wrong?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> I know some people divorce for the wrong reasons, and yeah they run their spouse for all they've got. But not all people divorce for the money, some divorce for the sake of their mental/physical wellbeing. In that case, divorce is not a reward.


 My point was, and still is,

that:

Divorce is never a reward,

and divorce is never a victory.

Divorce is always a hostile action,

and divorce is always a mark of a failure.

Therefore trying to minimize the divorces and trying to save marriages is the thing that society needs.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> My point was, and still is, that:
> Divorce is never a reward,


Except to the victim of abuse, I agree





> and divorce is never a victory.


Except to the victim of abuse, I agree





> Divorce is always a hostile action,


Except to the victim of abuse, or when two adults can achieve some level of mature parting of ways, it usually is





> and divorce is always a mark of a failure.


Here, you're just plain wrong.  When the wronged party finally chooses self worth over a cheating spouse, or an abusive spouse, after long and repeated attempts at making the marriage work, it is not a failure to that person.  It may be a failure of the marriage, and it may mark the abusive, cheating, or otherwise despicable spouse, but not both spouses.





> Therefore trying to minimize the divorces and trying to save marriages is the thing that society needs.


Society, yes.  I agree.  Through laws, absolutely not.  You repeatedly state that the government should get out of the way of what the people in the family want and need, and in this case you are right.  Keep the government out of marriages - especially trying to keep failed marriages together.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Divorce is presented like some kind of reward for the spouse that got cheated on.
> What I did say was that granting a divorce is NOT a victory and it *is* a nasty reward too.









JPC sr said:


> My point was, and still is,
> 
> that:
> 
> Divorce is never a reward,





uh, contradicting yourself hon.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> You keep repeating this same childish nonsense so you must think it is clever or some thing.
> 
> I do not see where you have any superiority in that regard. The BIG point of me refering to the Clinton issue is because from then till now it is Hillary that has profitted from the feasco because Hillary knew what really mattered and Hillary did the right thing, and now it is Hillary that could be the first female President of the USA and many of us morally conscious persons say it is because Hillary was strongest when she defended her marriage and Hillary protected her family from the outside adulterous woman.
> 
> If Hillary had been nieve enough to believe that divorce garbage then she would have failed and her family destroyed and surely she would be in no position to run for election if the populace had seen Monica taking Hillary down.
> 
> I am saying to look and see the big example of power in virtue done by Hillary Clinton by rejecting divorce.
> 
> Believe thy eyes instead of thy filthy opinion.



Hillary Clinton was also standing under a very public spotlight in the middle of a political arena at that time. How humiliating for her to have been seen crying or screaming at her lecherous unfaithful husband for the pain he had caused her. She had no option but to hold her head up and "stand by her man". I am in favor of saving a marriage whenever it is possible and I endured a lot to try and salvage my own, but the one who breaks the vows is most undeniably not blameless. If they have no remorse the marriage has no hope of surviving and they will do it again as I found out all too well. If there is no accountability then it depends on the person's morals and conscience and if they didn't care enough to not cheat the first time they'll care even less the second or third time.


----------



## Xaquin44

Wasn't JPC divorced?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> Hillary Clinton was also standing under a very public spotlight in the middle of a political arena at that time. How humiliating for her to have been seen crying or screaming at her lecherous unfaithful husband for the pain he had caused her. She had no option but to hold her head up and "stand by her man". I am in favor of savin a marriage whenever it is possible and I endured a lot to try and salvage my own, but the one who breaks the vows is most undeniabley not blameless and if they have no remorse the marriage has no hope of surviving and they will do it again as I found out all too well. If there is no accountability then it depends on the person's morals and conscience and if they didn't care enough to not cheat the first time they'll care even less the second or third time.


 This is enough for me.

Believe as you choose and it is only an ideal of mine but not my agenda.

I am going to try to get back to the thread subject and that works for me.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



Xaquin44 said:


> Wasn't JPC divorced?


 Yes, I was divorced,

and I lived long enough to regret it. Cheers.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Yes, I was divorced, and I lived long enough to regret it. Cheers.


That makes one of you.....

But, you still didn't answer my questions (again):

What is filthy or sinful about recognizing that the one who takes an oath is the one responsible for fullfilling that oath?

I'll even give you kudos for Hillary sticking by Bill time after time after time after time of his infidelities. She did not get divorced. 

But, what does that have to do with it being Bill who is the one who swore in front of God, family, friends, and on a document that he wouldn't perform those infidelities, and thus it is Bill who was in the wrong?


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Yes, I was divorced,
> 
> and I lived long enough to regret it. Cheers.



wow. that sounded like remorse. 

chimo!


----------



## Xaquin44

~mellabella~ said:


> wow. that sounded like remorse.
> 
> chimo!



I'll give you one guess why she wanted to get away.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> wow. that sounded like remorse.
> 
> chimo!


  Yes, I have lots of regrets and remorse.

I have had a hard life.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Yes, I have lots of regrets and remorse.
> 
> I have had a hard life.



self inflicted? or a share of you and others making it hard?


----------



## This_person

~mellabella~ said:


> wow. that sounded like remorse. chimo!


He doesn't actually feel any remorse.  He said so here:





JPC sr said:


> When my son and I went to his mom's grave I told him that *I did not feel sorry to her* as all I could feel was my own great gratitude for the woman that gave us our son.


It was her own fault for getting the "prize" of their son that she suffered so much.  If she had not wanted a life of poverty and being the only one responsible to their son, she should have given Junior up to Jimmy Sr.


That's always been his attitude.  Any time he feigns remorse it's to get sympathy (the kind he did not give when he deserted his family).


----------



## godsbutterfly

This_person said:


> He doesn't actually feel any remorse.  He said so here:It was her own fault for getting the "prize" of their son that she suffered so much.  If she had not wanted a life of poverty and being the only one responsible to their son, she should have given Junior up to Jimmy Sr.
> 
> 
> That's always been his attitude.  Any time he feigns remorse it's to get sympathy (the kind he did not give when he deserted his family).



I was kinda reading that as not mourning her death because of being too grateful to her for giving them a son? I'm not in the right ballpark? Where is Jimmy Jr. anyway?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> self inflicted? or a share of you and others making it hard?


     Its not all one sided.

At first it was my birth and upbringing,

then it was me and my faults,

then my screw ups again,

but then there were others that inflicted hardships.

And it still continues.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I was kinda reading that as not mourning her death because of being too grateful to her for giving them a son? I'm not in the right ballpark? Where is Jimmy Jr. anyway?


 Well are not you a winner?

You accepting T_p as talking for me, and expect him to speak for my son.

No wonder there is no communicating with this kind of crud.

He does not speak for me or for anyone else but his own trashy opinions made by himself.


----------



## This_person

godsbutterfly said:


> I was kinda reading that as not mourning her death because of being too grateful to her for giving them a son? I'm not in the right ballpark? Where is Jimmy Jr. anyway?


If he did not feel sorry "for" (instead of sorry "to" her), I would agree.  But, the context of the conversation was such that he was not sorry for the pain and suffering he had caused the family he "deserted" to "figure it out for themselves" (his words, not mine), because they had all they needed with him providing nothing.  In his view, as long as there are other family members, welfare programs, etc, the separated parent need not provide anything, because all is taken care of for the families.  He has repeatedly said there is no such thing as a needy or hungry child unless the _custodial parent *only*_ is at fault.

I couldn't put the whole context of the statement in, but as a long time arguer with Jimmy, I can honestly tell you it was there.

Junior is a grown man, with child that he recently was taken to court for not supporting.  Dear ol' dad tried to get him to do the same thing he did, fight the support by going to jail.  The kid is more interested in drugs, drinking, and gambling than he is in meeting Bubba in the shower, so he chose (after every legal maneuver he could muster against doing this) to finally pay a little something for his child.  Didn't take dear ol' daddy's advice.  Sweet family, huh?


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> You accepting T_p as talking for me, and expect him to speak for my son.


You've spoken for your son enough - wasn't even sure the woman he slept with was faithful enough to be bearing HIS child, so he had to get a paternity test.  When that showed him the father, he still couldn't pay for his kid until threatened with jail.  Meanwhile, several DUI's.  This from YOUR keyboard.  Imagine what someone who DOESN'T like him would say


----------



## JPC sr

This_person said:


> If he did not feel sorry "for" (instead of sorry "to" her), I would agree.  But, the context of the conversation was such that he was not sorry for the pain and suffering he had caused the family he "deserted" to "figure it out for themselves" (his words, not mine), because they had all they needed with him providing nothing.  In his view, as long as there are other family members, welfare programs, etc, the separated parent need not provide anything, because all is taken care of for the families.  He has repeatedly said there is no such thing as a needy or hungry child unless the _custodial parent *only*_ is at fault.
> 
> I couldn't put the whole context of the statement in, but as a long time arguer with Jimmy, I can honestly tell you it was there.
> 
> Junior is a grown man, with child that he recently was taken to court for not supporting.  Dear ol' dad tried to get him to do the same thing he did, fight the support by going to jail.  The kid is more interested in drugs, drinking, and gambling than he is in meeting Bubba in the shower, so he chose (after every legal maneuver he could muster against doing this) to finally pay a little something for his child.  Didn't take dear ol' daddy's advice.  Sweet family, huh?


  This is just slander and lies.

This person pretends to speak for me when he himself has nothing to say.

He is a complete fraud.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> This is just slander and lies.
> 
> This person pretends to speak for me when he himself has nothing to say.
> 
> He is a complete fraud.


Perhaps if you gave your position instead of just attacking the messanger?  Do you think I can't (and won't) back this up with link after link to your previous posts?  Jimmy, I do it to you all the time, what would stop me now.  Admit the truth!


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> Well are not you a winner?
> 
> You accepting T_p as talking for me, and expect him to speak for my son.
> 
> No wonder there is no communicating with this kind of crud.
> 
> He does not speak for me or for anyone else but his own trashy opinions made by himself.



I was asking YOU! Do you not see my interpretation was different?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I was asking YOU! Do you not see my interpretation was different?


 That being the case then I do sincerely apologize.

The forum often makes our intentions appear different then they truly are,

so I was angry at you and now I am very sorry for mis-understanding.

And yes, I saw your first interpretation and you were totally correct in that.

T_p was not there and he certainly does not speak for me or any of my family.

I think he is just green with jealousy over my being a candidate for Congress.

My son is around and he visited here today and I try not to speak much about him on here as some other posters just try to degrade everything. Plus, even I do not speak for my son as he is 30 years old and he does what he wants.

His mom died of cancer when he was 17 and she is buried in Hollywood.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> That being the case then I do sincerely apologize.
> 
> The forum often makes our intentions appear different then they truly are,
> 
> so I was angry at you and now I am very sorry for mis-understanding.
> 
> And yes, I saw your first interpretation and you were totally correct in that.
> 
> T_p was not there and he certainly does not speak for me or any of my family.
> 
> I think he is just green with jealousy over my being a candidate for Congress.
> 
> My son is around and he visited here today and I try not to speak much about him on here as some other posters just try to degrade everything. Plus, even I do not speak for my son as he is 30 years old and he does what he wants.
> 
> His mom died of cancer when he was 17 and she is buried in Hollywood.



Thank you. I just wanted to hear what you had to say.


----------



## This_person

godsbutterfly said:


> Thank you. I just wanted to hear what you had to say.


Note, he did not refute anything I said.

Jimmy, do you deny saying that there are no hungry or needy children?  Do you deny saying that if there are any children going without, that it is only the custodial parent's fault?  Do you deny saying saying that you deserted your family to let them figure it out for themselves (when your son was around five years old or less)?  Do you deny the quote where you said you did not feel sorry "to" your dead wife for the pain you caused her and your son?  Do you deny your son's gambling issue?  Do you deny your anything I said regarding your son's child support (or lack thereof) issue?

You can't deny it, because you know I'll link to one of the many times you said it, so you attack _me_ instead.  I can take it, but the life you left your son (how many DUI's has he had?) shows what you've been in your life.

You have to attack people who speak the truth, because the truth of what you are and what it meant to your immediate family (yes, I know you don't consider your son your immediate family, as was posted earlier, but.... he is) is just too painful for you to accept.  You have to create an alternate reality, the one you try and live in.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Its not all one sided.
> 
> At first it was my birth and upbringing,
> 
> then it was me and my faults,
> 
> then my screw ups again,
> 
> but then there were others that inflicted hardships.
> 
> And it still continues.



What a fun cycle to go through. Don't know about you, but I am fully capable of screwing my own life up, I wouldn't want anyone else trying to help me out!


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> What a fun cycle to go through. Don't know about you, but I am fully capable of screwing my own life up, I wouldn't want anyone else trying to help me out!


  If you have not had others screwing up your life for you,

then you must be the most unusual person on the whole planet earth.

I certainly have screwed up myself many times but I hate when others do it for me.

But I still like and welcome the help and assistance of others even when they help nothing.

I still regard my ex-wife very highly even though our marriage failed.

It is better to fail then to miss the experience and the benefits.

And if I loose this election there is still much I might gain from the effort.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> If you have not had others screwing up your life for you,
> 
> then you must be the most unusual person on the whole planet earth.
> 
> I certainly have screwed up myself many times but I hate when others do it for me.
> 
> But I still like and welcome the help and assistance of others even when they help nothing.
> 
> I still regard my ex-wife very highly even though our marriage failed.
> 
> It is better to fail then to miss the experience and the benefits.
> 
> And if I loose this election there is still much I might gain from the effort.




Others have screwed me over, don't get me wrong. If nothing else I dare say this election will be a learning experience for you. And that is the wisest thing I have ever heard you say..."It is better to fail then to miss the experience and the benefits."


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> If you have not had others screwing up your life for you, then you must be the most unusual person on the whole planet earth.  I certainly have screwed up myself many times but I hate when others do it for me.


It's been said that good luck is always proceeded by a lot of hard work.  It's also been said that life is only 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you respond to what happens to you.

Jimmy, you're a 90% what happens to you, 10% personal responsibility person.  You blame outside circumstances for your life, instead of yourself.  You blame child support for separating you from your child.  You blame being jailed for your own actions for separating you from your child.  You adamently refuse to acknowledge that these were choices on your part, not choices of outside forces.  YOU, and you alone, screwed your life up.  You need to come to grips with that.





> But I still like and welcome the help and assistance of others even when they help nothing.


What assistance is nothing?  This is the type of sentence you write that I have to ask if you understand English.

However, it's good to know that you welcome this assistance from me, repeatedly.





> I still regard my ex-wife very highly even though our marriage failed.  It is better to fail then to miss the experience and the benefits.
> 
> And if I loose this election there is still much I might gain from the effort.


It's good to read you say this.  Does this mean you now acknowledge and regret the pain you caused her and your son when you deserted them to figure it out for themselves?


----------



## MMDad

~mellabella~ said:


> this election will be a learning experience for you.


 No, it won't be. He refuses to learn. He didn't learn from his resounding defeat in the '06 primary, and he won't learn from this.

By the way, don't fall for his "other people cause my problems" line. He did it all himself. He did the drugs, he still drinks even though it causes his physical affliction, he quit school, he abandoned his family and ran away to avoid his narcotics indictment, he refused to pay one penny of support, he quit his job to avoid wage garnishment, he put himself in prison.

He has worked hard to cause everything that has happened to him, and he has reaped the reward. He's as messed up as a screen door on a submarine. Just think what he could have become if he put one tenth of that effort into a worthwhile pursuit?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


>


 You really need to grow up T_p.

You could run for election yourself.

But then you would need to speak for yourself and that might be difficult.

See here, This person is trying to screw me up instead of letting me do it myself.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> You really need to grow up T_p.  You could run for election yourself.  But then you would need to speak for yourself and that might be difficult.  See here, This person is trying to screw me up instead of letting me do it myself.


Instead of attacking the messenger, perhaps you could state your position on personal responsibility.


----------



## ~mellabella~

MMDad said:


> No, it won't be. He refuses to learn. He didn't learn from his resounding defeat in the '06 primary, and he won't learn from this.
> 
> By the way, don't fall for his "other people cause my problems" line. He did it all himself. He did the drugs, he still drinks even though it causes his physical affliction, he quit school, he abandoned his family and ran away to avoid his narcotics indictment, he refused to pay one penny of support, he quit his job to avoid wage garnishment, he put himself in prison.
> 
> He has worked hard to cause everything that has happened to him, and he has reaped the reward. He's as messed up as a screen door on a submarine. Just think what he could have become if he put one tenth of that effort into a worthwhile pursuit?



I think (and even by his own admission) that yes, most of it has been his own doing. But also that others have compounded the situation. Its a natural course of life. Everyone gets screwed over at some point. 

He's as messed up as a screen door on a submarine?? Never heard that one before. Thats cute.


----------



## MMDad

~mellabella~ said:


> He's as messed up as a screen door on a submarine?? Never heard that one before. Thats cute.


 It's usually stated in a much more vulgar way, but I thought I'd keep it clean since it is the religion forum.


----------



## ~mellabella~

MMDad said:


> It's usually stated in a much more vulgar way, but I thought I'd keep it clean since it is the religion forum.



always thoughtful! thats why I like ya.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> always thoughtful! thats why I like ya.


  Do not be nice to that nasty poster.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Do not be nice to that nasty poster.


----------



## MMDad

~mellabella~ said:


>



 Jimmy is just bitter because Santa is bringing me good stuff, but he's just getting a lump of coal.

The first question on the "naughty or nice" list for fathers is the question "Do you provide for your family?"

Jimmy has always failed that one, so he always gets a lump of coal. That's why he's so bitter at this time of year. It's also why he denies the existence of Santa.

He still can't answer the question: If there's no santa, how does the lump of coal get there every year?


----------



## Purplefox

JPC sr said:


> Do not be nice to that nasty poster.




You forgot this at the end of your post:


----------



## This_person

MMDad said:


> Jimmy is just bitter because Santa is bringing me good stuff, but he's just getting a lump of coal.
> 
> The first question on the "naughty or nice" list for fathers is the question "Do you provide for your family?"
> 
> Jimmy has always failed that one, so he always gets a lump of coal. That's why he's so bitter at this time of year. It's also why he denies the existence of Santa.
> 
> He still can't answer the question: If there's no santa, how does the lump of coal get there every year?


I suspect if you smell it, that dark brown lump is not coal..........


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> I suspect if you smell it, that dark brown lump is not coal..........


 Always back to filth.

Even on the religion thread it is more filth.

Nothing to do with the subject, nothing added to the discussions,

nothing of quality, just more filth.


----------



## ImnoMensa

Discussing  religion with JPC is a lot like discussing sex with a eunoch.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



I'mno Mensa said:


> Discussing  religion with JPC is a lot like discussing sex with a eunoch.


  The religion discussion is open to anyone.

It is not necessarily discussed with me, even though I do give my side.

The original post of this thread is based on a Christian Bishop that preaches everybody gets saved,

and I agree with that.

Jesus paid the full price for everybody so everybody gets saved and no torture of people in Hell.

Only paradise and no hell for the future of every person of all times.


----------



## hvp05

This_person said:


> Just wait, though.  He'll either deny ever saying that, say just the opposite, or *both*!


I'd like to add my own bit here:  the time I posted the list of traits of the classic sociopath.  At first ol' Jimmy said it was slander and denied being a sociopath, then eventually shifted to saying that he may be a sociopath but that did not affect his candidacy or its factuality or his helping others.  That despite the fact that, by their very nature, sociopaths live in a reality based on grandiose claims of self-importance, lies, and deceiving others for their own gain.   




JPC sr said:


> Yes, I have lots of regrets and remorse.  I have had a hard life.


What do you regret?  Not deserting your family sooner?  Not vandalizing the two government buildings sooner?  Not partying harder while you were still living out West?  Not staying in hiding longer so as to avoid prosecution?

I _know_ you regret that you _ever_ paid *any* child support because you've said so.  But what else do you regret?



JPC sr said:


> Nothing to do with the subject, nothing added to the discussions, nothing of quality, just more filth.


If he posted any more substance you would not have answered him at all.


----------



## hvp05

JPC sr said:


> The religion discussion is open to anyone.


Too bad you don't hold that same view for other discussions where you are involved...





			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> I have often heard it said as an American tradition:  That if one has nothing to add to the convesation then they need to shut up.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Always back to filth.  Even on the religion thread it is more filth.  Nothing to do with the subject, nothing added to the discussions, nothing of quality, just more filth.


Okay, then go back to the others:





This_person said:


> Instead of attacking the messenger, perhaps you could state your position on personal responsibility.





This_person said:


> Note, he did not refute anything I said.
> 
> Jimmy, do you deny saying that there are no hungry or needy children?  Do you deny saying that if there are any children going without, that it is only the custodial parent's fault?  Do you deny saying saying that you deserted your family to let them figure it out for themselves (when your son was around five years old or less)?  Do you deny the quote where you said you did not feel sorry "to" your dead wife for the pain you caused her and your son?  Do you deny your son's gambling issue?  Do you deny your anything I said regarding your son's child support (or lack thereof) issue?
> 
> You can't deny it, because you know I'll link to one of the many times you said it, so you attack _me_ instead.  I can take it, but the life you left your son (how many DUI's has he had?) shows what you've been in your life.
> 
> You have to attack people who speak the truth, because the truth of what you are and what it meant to your immediate family (yes, I know you don't consider your son your immediate family, as was posted earlier, but.... he is) is just too painful for you to accept.  You have to create an alternate reality, the one you try and live in.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



hvp05 said:


> Too bad you don't hold that same view for other discussions where you are involved...


   I believe that the point was the "Gospel of Inclusion" link HERE.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I believe that the point was the "Gospel of Inclusion" link HERE


Not since about the third page of this thread, but it was WAY off course at least by post 83.  You're merely trying to change the subject back since you can't win when people starting throwing that nasty, filthy truth of your life, your words, your opinions, etc., at you.  Otherwise, you'd answer my posts.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



JPC sr said:


> I believe that the point was the "Gospel of Inclusion" link HERE.


 I find it a big relief to have learned that "Hell" does not exist, link HERE.

Hell comes from words that mean the "grave" and not a place of torture by fire.

Only people would think up such a horrid concept, while God thought up forgiveness and salvation for everyone.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The religion discussion is open to anyone.
> 
> It is not necessarily discussed with me, even though I do give my side.
> 
> The original post of this thread is based on a Christian Bishop that preaches everybody gets saved,
> 
> and I agree with that.
> 
> Jesus paid the full price for everybody so everybody gets saved and no torture of people in Hell.
> 
> Only paradise and no hell for the future of every person of all times.



So what is unusual that you agree with a lie? Nothing.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I find it a big relief to have learned that "Hell" does not exist, link HERE.
> 
> Hell comes from words that mean the "grave" and not a place of torture by fire.
> 
> Only people would think up such a horrid concept, while God thought up forgiveness and salvation for everyone.



LIES!


----------



## godsbutterfly

2ndAmendment said:


> LIES!



My experience with this topic?  

                      "HE WHO HAS EARS LET HIM HEAR."


----------



## 2ndAmendment

godsbutterfly said:


> My experience with this topic?
> 
> "HE WHO HAS EARS LET HIM HEAR."



I know. JPC, Sr. is as hardheaded as people come.

And JPC, that is not a complement.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> LIES!


 Of course in this particular case,

I have the Christian Bishop on my side,

preaching the "Gospel of Inclusion" link HERE.

Jesus paid the penalty in full for ALL of mankind so everyone gets saved.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Of course in this particular case,
> 
> I have the Christian Bishop on my side,
> 
> preaching the "Gospel of Inclusion" link HERE.
> 
> Jesus paid the penalty in full for ALL of mankind so everyone gets saved.



Jesus says you and the bishop are wrong.


> Matthew 7:13-23
> 
> 13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
> 
> 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
> 
> 15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
> 
> 16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
> 
> 17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
> 
> 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
> 
> 19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
> 
> 20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
> 
> 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
> 
> 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Jesus says you and the bishop are wrong.
> 
> [Matthew 7:13-23 link HERE]


 Those Bible verses that you give are talking about now - here on earth and not after death and resurrection.

So Jesus agrees with me and the Bishop that everyone everywhere do get saved in the end.

For more accurate Bible verses about God and mankind is in Matthew 5:43-48 link HERE.

Jesus says to love thy enemies and that loving only Christians would be imperfect.

The carnal-fear method of "believe in Jesus or else burn in Hell" is an unloving and untrue  message.

In the Bible the word for "hell" only means the common grave or tomb for dead bodies.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


>


And, what is your view of the importance of personal responsibility?


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> Those Bible verses that you give are talking about now - here on earth and not after death and resurrection.
> 
> So Jesus agrees with me and the Bishop that everyone everywhere do get saved in the end.
> 
> For more accurate Bible verses about God and mankind is in Matthew 5:43-48 link HERE.
> 
> Jesus says to love thy enemies and that loving only Christians would be imperfect.
> 
> The carnal-fear method of "believe in Jesus or else burn in Hell" is an unloving and untrue  message.
> 
> In the Bible the word for "hell" only means the common grave or tomb for dead bodies.



If you had read carefully what 2nd Ammendment had quoted from the Bible:

"21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "

you would notice it says "On THAT DAY" and not here and now. Yes, the verses you referred to do tell us to love our enemies and do good to those that hate us but these verses tell us that not all are going to Heaven.  Those who "bear bad fruit"  - sin without repentance - are not going to Heaven. It says those branches will be cut off and thrown into the fire. Not the cleansing fire - you don't purify a tree! You burn dead, unproductive wood and whosever does not bear good fruit in the name of Jesus Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is Hell & which burns forever and HURTS not purifies!


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> And, what is your view of the importance of personal responsibility?


 I find that terminology to be very mis-used in todays world.

It is used a lot by gov and beligerant people as a way of BLAMING others link HERE, and blame is a wrong way of doing things.

The word "responsibility" comes the word "respond" and of course "personal" means the person's own response and not following orders.

When the gov or beligerant persons demand "personal responsibility" then it always means for others to do as they are commanded to do, instead of acually responding in a way that the person chooses of their own free will. 

Telling other people how they are to "respond" means the person does not have any free choice to decide how they themselves want to respond because the people are being told what to do and are expected to follow the beligerant orders.

Therefore the only true "personal responsibility" is when we each make our own decision as to how we ourself will respond or not respond.

So considering the huge way that terminology is mis-used then I say it must be regarded as inapropriate and no one will ever hear it mis-used by me.

As to the "importance" of it, then I say it is important that we all see it for what it really is - beligerant blame.

 Of course in the end everybody gets saved anyway because salvation is a done deal.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Therefore the only true "personal responsibility" is when we each make our own decision as to how we ourself will respond or not respond.


You make an interesting, if not wholly linguistically inaccurate, point.

So, if this is your view of personal responsibility, what is your view of the concept of being accountable for your actions?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> You make an interesting, if not wholly linguistically inaccurate, point.
> 
> So, if this is your view of personal responsibility, what is your view of the concept of being accountable for your actions?


 I say we need to at least try to stick with the subject on these threads.

You can start some word game thread if you choose but I do not like the games.

The "personal responsibility" did not work for you so now you got the "accountable for your actions" as a different version of the beligerant blame game.

I suggest to everyone that we defy your kind and those commands.


----------



## smcop

JPC sr said:


> I say we need to at least try to stick with the subject on these threads.
> 
> You can start some word game thread if you choose but I do not like the games.
> 
> The "personal responsibility" did not work for you so now you got the "accountable for your actions" as a different version of the beligerant blame game.
> 
> I suggest to everyone that we defy your kind and those commands.



I suggest we incarcerate, for long periods of time, those who refused to take care of their family.  I say we lock them up and throw away the key, and for every failing of their children we blame them, and for every law broken by their children we incarcerate them along with the children!


----------



## hvp05

JPC sr said:


> I say we need to at least try to stick with the subject on these threads.


You went along with it a short while ago.  Looks like you are doing what you accuse Hoyer of doing:  running away from the heat.



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> You can start some word game thread if you choose but I do not like the games.


You once stated, "We need technicalities and the wording must be exact to hold true."

When we break down "personal responsibility" we get (a) personal - "relating to, directed to, or intended for a particular person"; and (b) responsibility - "reliability or dependability".  Nowhere is there inherent blame, and your definition is not exact so it must be false - as judged by your own words.



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> the beligerant blame game.


If you see blame everywhere perhaps you have a guilty conscience.  If only you would seek the mental help we suggest, you could possibly work these issues out.   :shrug:


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



smcop said:


> I suggest we incarcerate, for long periods of time, those who refused to take care of their family.  I say we lock them up and throw away the key, and for every failing of their children we blame them, and for every law broken by their children we incarcerate them along with the children!


 Families need help and not mistreated more.

The parenting police that we have now only know two (2) methods:

1) Steal the parent's money,

and 

2) Put parents into jail.

These are barbaric methods and they do not defend marriages and they do not protect families.

Parents need help to do their own business and we do not need the gov to keep attacking parents.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> If you had read carefully what 2nd Ammendment had quoted from the Bible:
> 
> "21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
> 
> 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "
> 
> you would notice it says "On THAT DAY" and not here and now. Yes, the verses you referred to do tell us to love our enemies and do good to those that hate us but these verses tell us that not all are going to Heaven.  Those who "bear bad fruit"  - sin without repentance - are not going to Heaven. It says those branches will be cut off and thrown into the fire. Not the cleansing fire - you don't purify a tree! You burn dead, unproductive wood and whosever does not bear good fruit in the name of Jesus Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is Hell & which burns forever and HURTS not purifies!


  I did read what was posted and I am very familiar with the Bible.

I say you and others are very mistaken in that claim.

The fire is a cleaning and purifying fire which you deny.

"On that day" means any day that it gets done, and we all still reap as we sow here on earth.

Since Jesus plainly said to "love thy enemies" link HERE while others claim that "hell" (the grave) means the torture of people by hell fire, then the two (2) sayings contradict each other.

And since Jesus does say to "love thy enemies" and then if He tortures His enemies in fire-hell then that would make Jesus into a hypocrite (which He is not).

Of course in my interpretation (and the Bishop's) then there is no contradiction at all.

God and Jesus love their enemies unconditionally, and "Hell" only means the common grave or tomb which everyone gets resurrected from and saved.

If people were burning in Hell (they are not) then there would be no need for a resurrection.

Of course the correct interpretation says that everyone gets resurrected from their graves (hell) and then saved and that makes sense with no contradiction.

The notion that people are being tortured in hell-fire by Jesus Christ is very far from the Gospel message and far from the truth.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I did read what was posted and I am very familiar with the Bible.
> 
> I say you and others are very mistaken in that claim.
> 
> The fire is a cleaning and purifying fire which you deny.
> 
> "On that day" means any day that it gets done, and we all still reap as we sow here on earth.
> 
> Since Jesus plainly said to "love thy enemies" link HERE while others claim that "hell" (the grave) means the torture of people by hell fire, then the two (2) sayings contradict each other.
> 
> And since Jesus does say to "love thy enemies" and then if He tortures His enemies in fire-hell then that would make Jesus into a hypocrite (which He is not).
> 
> Of course in my interpretation (and the Bishop's) then there is no contradiction at all.
> 
> God and Jesus love their enemies unconditionally, and "Hell" only means the common grave or tomb which everyone gets resurrected from and saved.
> 
> If people were burning in Hell (they are not) then there would be no need for a resurrection.
> 
> Of course the correct interpretation says that everyone gets resurrected from their graves (hell) and then saved and that makes sense with no contradiction.
> 
> The notion that people are being tortured in hell-fire by Jesus Christ is very far from the Gospel message and far from the truth.



God turned away from Jesus on the cross because he cannot look upon sin. I have read and had instruction and sermons on the End Times. You and I will never agree on this. You are believing a Bishop and I am believing the King of Kings. Best of luck to you.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> God turned away from Jesus on the cross because he cannot look upon sin. I have read and had instruction and sermons on the End Times. You and I will never agree on this. You are believing a Bishop and I am believing the King of Kings. Best of luck to you.


 My beliefs do not come from the Bishop.

That Bishop just happens to preach that one thing that we are agreed upon.

I did give text from the Bible as my proof and not from any other sourse.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> The "personal responsibility" did not work for you so now you got the "accountable for your actions" as a different version of the beligerant blame game.


"Did not work"?  Are you assuming I had an intent?

However, your inability to understand the English language was very evident in your answer, and you showed what you believe "responsibility" to be, so you answered my question quite well indeed.  Anyone who might possibly be unaware of your views will probably be better informed now.  

Also, your assumption that I had an agenda in asking the question, and then refusing to answer a follow-up related question also shows you for being you, and should tell any potential supporters even more about you.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> God turned away from Jesus on the cross because he cannot look upon sin. I have read and had instruction and sermons on the End Times. You and I will never agree on this. You are believing a Bishop and I am believing the King of Kings. Best of luck to you.


 So in your interpretation that others have indoctrinated into you,

of having people being totured in that Hell fire by the loving Jesus,

and that is acceptable as truth to your beliefs?

But having a loving God that forgives sins and saves everybody even His enemies, 

and that is not acceptable to your religion?

Those are the questions of your personal relationship and not Orthodox indoctrinations.

  ............................  :shrug:


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> So in your interpretation that others have indoctrinated into you,
> 
> of having people being totured in that Hell fire by the loving Jesus,
> 
> and that is acceptable as truth to your beliefs?
> 
> But having a loving God that forgives sins and saves everybody even His enemies,
> 
> and that is not acceptable to your religion?
> 
> Those are the questions of your personal relationship and not Orthodox indoctrinations.
> 
> ............................  :shrug:



My interpretation does not allow us to go around behaving any way we want to  - it makes no difference how we act or what we do - because in the end we all get forgiven and go up to Heaven with Jesus for a big Hallelujah party. That is not realistic and it is not what the Bible says no matter how hard I try to read it that way, which, frankly, I don't!  That makes Jesus' sacrifice on the cross much too shallow.Hell does exist and God has provided a way for all to be saved and that is thru accepting Christ as their Lord. If they don't then they go to Hell and yes, it is a place of punishment.  Actions have consequences. If they didn't Satan would still be up in Heaven along with the 1/3 of the angels that were kicked out with him now wouldn't he?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> My interpretation does not allow us to go around behaving any way we want to  - it makes no difference how we act or what we do - because in the end we all get forgiven and go up to Heaven with Jesus for a big Hallelujah party. That is not realistic and it is not what the Bible says no matter how hard I try to read it that way, which, frankly, I don't!  That makes Jesus' sacrifice on the cross much too shallow.Hell does exist and God has provided a way for all to be saved and that is thru accepting Christ as their Lord. If they don't then they go to Hell and yes, it is a place of punishment.  Actions have consequences. If they didn't Satan would still be up in Heaven along with the 1/3 of the angels that were kicked out with him now wouldn't he?


 I would like to introduce you to the real Jesus that loves His enemies and that does right to those that hate Him link HERE.

That evil tyrant God and evil Jesus that you profess now are not the truth.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I did give text from the Bible as my proof and not from any other sourse.



You give text that supports your point of view while ignoring other text which dispels your lies:



> The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his
> kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.  They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth…  Mat 13:41-42





> This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth…  Mat 13:49-50





> Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God… John 3:18





> The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever… Rev 20:10





> The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire… Rev 20:13-15


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I would like to introduce you to the real Jesus that loves His enemies and that does right to those that hate Him link HERE.



So let me get this straight... There are those that hate Jesus and God, but God loves them anyway and will accept them into heaven even though they hate Him?

I can't wait to see why God would want someone that hates Him in His kingdom.

Are you telling me that if I hate you, and aim to curse you at every available moment you're going to invite me in your home?  I wonder how long that visit will last.


----------



## This_person

godsbutterfly said:


> Actions have consequences.


This was my whole point in bringing up responsibility and accountability.  Whether it's on the religious or personal front, Jimmy does not believe that we are accountable for our actions, that we need to act responsibly.  He believes he's saved no matter how he acts, no matter what he believes, no matter what he spouts out and encourages others to do.  He's a danger to himself and anyone around him.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> You give text that supports your point of view while ignoring other text which dispels your lies:


 The text that you give about "fire" means a fire that cleans and purifies the person.

The person dies of sin and receive eternal life link HERE.

The gift can not be "eternal life" if people already have eternal life in Hell fire, and death means dead to sin.





PsyOps said:


> So let me get this straight... There are those that hate Jesus and God, but God loves them anyway and will accept them into heaven even though they hate Him?


 That is exactly correct.

The worse of the worse sinners get in based on Christ sacrifice.

The punisment for all sins has been paid in full already - and it was planned that way.





PsyOps said:


> I can't wait to see why God would want someone that hates Him in His kingdom.


 It is like a miracle link HERE, because the Father in Heaven is "perfect".

The hate will die along with the sins and the sinner will be made righteous, thank God for us all.





PsyOps said:


> Are you telling me that if I hate you, and aim to curse you at every available moment you're going to invite me in your home?  I wonder how long that visit will last.


 Well I am not God and I am not as strong as Christ and I do not want hateful people in my house or even in my Country or anywhere in this world I do not want them.

But then salvation is not now in this wicked system and that is why on Judgement Day then all people will see the truth and then there will be a blessed improvement and at that time things will be far better then things are now in this wicked world.

On Judgement Day then everyone will believe and be saved link HERE.

Our hope, and the promise of God is that a better world will come on earth as it is in Heaven.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I would like to introduce you to the real Jesus that loves His enemies and that does right to those that hate Him link HERE.
> 
> That evil tyrant God and evil Jesus that you profess now are not the truth.



I have long been familiar with Jesus Christ and I know Him and God for their Mercy and their Grace but I also know and understand what the Bible tells us of the Last Days and in those Days God will not be a Tyrant but a Just God dispersing out the Judgement He has long declared was coming  -  *in the **manner He has promised in His Word *-  the passages that I, Psy Ops, 2nd Amendment, and Oh so many others have quoted directly from the Holy Bible you somehow don't have in your Bible or they mean something else or we all read them wrong or something. How is it that all of us plus every theologian for lo these many centuries has been wrong and you and this Bishop are right? Why can you not conceive of the notion that you are wrong?  Oh - Perish *that *thought!  "God is not a man that He should lie."


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I have long been familiar with Jesus Christ and I know Him and God for their Mercy and their Grace but I also know and understand what the Bible tells us of the Last Days and in those Days God will not be a Tyrant but a Just God dispersing out the Judgement He has long declared was coming  -  *in the **manner He has promised in His Word *-  the passages that I, Psy Ops, 2nd Amendment, and Oh so many others have quoted directly from the Holy Bible you somehow don't have in your Bible or they mean something else or we all read them wrong or something. How is it that all of us plus every theologian for lo these many centuries has been wrong and you and this Bishop are right? Why can you not conceive of the notion that you are wrong?  Oh - Perish *that *thought!  "God is not a man that He should lie."


 The whole world is deceived Revelations 12:9 link HERE.

But Jesus said there would be a few (not the many) that do not get deceived,link HERE. 

It is a false Christ that claim He tortures people in a Hell fire while the true Christ loves His enemies.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> The whole world is deceived Revelations 12:9 link HERE.
> 
> But Jesus said there would be a few (not the many) that do not get deceived,link HERE.
> 
> It is a false Christ that claim He tortures people in a Hell fire while the true Christ loves His enemies.



So what's your explnation for God destroying the Earth by Flood because of the sinfulness of man? Or did that not really happen either?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> So what's your explnation for God destroying the Earth by Flood because of the sinfulness of man? Or did that not really happen either?


 Well God cares about people, and God loves humanity.

God destroyed those by flood, and Abe Lincoln saw God in defeating the evil of slavery, and many still today know it was God that destroyed Nazi Germany, so sometimes God uses water and flood but He also uses people to do His hard work.

But see that they were all "destroyed" and not tortured forever in Hell fire.

They were destroyed and they died and they are still dead, thank God.

According to the Bible those destroyed will be resurrected and given a second chance on Judgement Day link HERE and then they all will be saved through Christ sacrifice.

God does not murder as people murder because God knows the plan of resurrection and those people were horribly lost so that destruction till Judgement Day was the best those could get from this wicked world, and temporary destruction from their loving God.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> The text that you give about "fire" means a fire that cleans and purifies the person.



You are so lost JPC.  You completely ignored this one:



> The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. *There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever*… Rev 20:10



It's your wish and desire to believe EVERYONE gets into heaven regardless of whether they recieve Christ as their savior because you have no desire to change your life.  You set up your own rules to make it convenient for yourself.  Manipulating God into your own little mold.


----------



## godsbutterfly

PsyOps said:


> You are so lost JPC.  You completely ignored this one:
> 
> 
> 
> It's your wish and desire to believe EVERYONE gets into heaven regardless of whether they recieve Christ as their savior because you have no desire to change your life.  You set up your own rules to make it convenient for yourself.  Manipulating God into your own little mold.



It is an unfortunate tendency with him and I am not saying that to be unkind. He will not see anything he does not want to but believes we all are the blind ones, does not hear want he does not want to and calls all of us deaf.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> It is an unfortunate tendency with him and I am not saying that to be unkind. He will not see anything he does not want to but believes we all are the blind ones, does not hear want he does not want to and calls all of us deaf.


 I never said nor say any such thing as that.

It is ONLY you saying that I do not see and do not hear.

What I have done is quote the Bible and give Bible links and I back up all that I posted with proof from the Bible.

So those claims bounce off of me and sticks to GBF.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I never said nor say any such thing as that.
> 
> It is ONLY you saying that I do not see and do not hear.
> 
> What I have done is quote the Bible and give Bible links and I back up all that I posted with proof from the Bible.
> 
> So those claims bounce off of me and sticks to GBF.



I back up what I say with the Bible too and so have many others on here but you say we are all wrong. We have given you scripture references galore but you still we are wrong. Why are your scriptures right and ours are wrong when they are coming from the same Bible? Interpretation- that's why. Because I don't see it as you do that makes me (and a lot of others) wrong in your eyes even though we have scripture as well. It's like being caught up in a never-ending circle because yo  will never concede that you could be even slightly misguided in this at all.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> You are so lost JPC.  You completely ignored this one:
> 
> The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever… Rev 20:10​


 The word "tormented" does not mean "torture by fire" except by misinterpretaion.

That torment means massive regrets and remorse but not torture by fire.

And it says "the Devil" and "beast" and "false prophet" that gets such torments and not people.

Jesus paid the penalty for all human beings to be saved so not even one person will suffer torture from God.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> It's your wish and desire to believe EVERYONE gets into heaven regardless of whether they recieve Christ as their savior because you have no desire to change your life.  You set up your own rules to make it convenient for yourself.  Manipulating God into your own little mold.


 That is far from true.

I have repented big time in my own life and I always preach for me and for everyone to do right and to resist any wrongs.

It was NOT my idea to give salvation to everybody, so I am not "manipulating" God.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> The word "tormented" does not mean "torture by fire" except by misinterpretaion.
> 
> That torment means massive regrets and remorse but not torture by fire.
> 
> And it says "the Devil" and "beast" and "false prophet" that gets such torments and not people.
> 
> Jesus paid the penalty for all human beings to be saved so not even one person will suffer torture from God.



I don’t think any of us really know what eternal damnation will be like.  All I know is it’s a place I don’t want to be.  A place of unimaginable suffering.  

But, predictably you ignored key provisions of the Bible:



> For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him *might not perish *but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but *whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God*… John 3:16-18





> A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice, "Anyone who worships the beast or its image, or accepts its mark on forehead or hand, *will also drink the wine of God's fury*, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, *and will be tormented in burning sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb. The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night *for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name."… Rev 14:9-11



There are so many passages that refer to the demise of those who do not believe.  Nothing talks about your claim that non-believers’ torment being remorse or regret, but I’m sure they will be quite remorseful and regretful.  

Those who do not believe are condemned to eternal tormenting day and night forever and ever.  You have to take things in their entire context and not extract out what you do not want to apply just to fit your own image of God.  You have things completely backwards.  We are in God’s image, not God in ours.



JPC sr said:


> I have repented big time in my own life and I always preach for me and for everyone to do right and to resist any wrongs.
> 
> It was NOT my idea to give salvation to everybody, so I am not "manipulating" God.



You have already said that everyone gets into heaven and are forgiven.  You have also said that it is not necessary to repent.  If it’s not necessary it is a waste of time.  Why do you waste your time on such petty actions like repentance?  What have you to repent for if it is already forgiven?  Actually what do you repent for?  Perhaps you would like to explain to me what repentance (as used in the original Greek text) means.


----------



## PsyOps

godsbutterfly said:


> It is an unfortunate tendency with him and I am not saying that to be unkind. He will not see anything he does not want to but believes we all are the blind ones, does not hear want he does not want to and calls all of us deaf.



Go ahead... call the sky blue.  I dare you.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> You have already said that everyone gets into heaven and are forgiven.  You have also said that it is not necessary to repent.  If it’s not necessary it is a waste of time.  Why do you waste your time on such petty actions like repentance?  What have you to repent for if it is already forgiven?  Actually what do you repent for?  Perhaps you would like to explain to me what repentance (as used in the original Greek text) means.


 We must repent here now because here and now is what matters most.

What is to happen after death is only slightly better then meaningless because it is all taken care of.

To repent means to turn around and make right the wrongs that we have done.

Like if stolen some thing then repent means giving it back with remorse.

Now in this world is the time for action - now.

Jesus told us how to live now and He did not say how to live after death.

Planning for Heaven or avoiding Hell are worthless pursuits and empty goals.


----------



## godsbutterfly

PsyOps said:


> Go ahead... call the sky blue.  I dare you.



You would't be instigating would you Psy Ops? Okay - I double dare *you*!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Those Bible verses that you give are talking about now - here on earth and not after death and resurrection.
> 
> So Jesus agrees with me and the Bishop that everyone everywhere do get saved in the end.
> 
> For more accurate Bible verses about God and mankind is in Matthew 5:43-48 link HERE.
> 
> Jesus says to love thy enemies and that loving only Christians would be imperfect.
> 
> The carnal-fear method of "believe in Jesus or else burn in Hell" is an unloving and untrue  message.
> 
> In the Bible the word for "hell" only means the common grave or tomb for dead bodies.



You are wrong, but what is unusual about that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I did read what was posted and I am very familiar with the Bible.
> 
> I say you and others are very mistaken in that claim.
> 
> The fire is a cleaning and purifying fire which you deny.
> 
> "On that day" means any day that it gets done, and we all still reap as we sow here on earth.
> 
> Since Jesus plainly said to "love thy enemies" link HERE while others claim that "hell" (the grave) means the torture of people by hell fire, then the two (2) sayings contradict each other.
> 
> And since Jesus does say to "love thy enemies" and then if He tortures His enemies in fire-hell then that would make Jesus into a hypocrite (which He is not).
> 
> Of course in my interpretation (and the Bishop's) then there is no contradiction at all.
> 
> God and Jesus love their enemies unconditionally, and "Hell" only means the common grave or tomb which everyone gets resurrected from and saved.
> 
> If people were burning in Hell (they are not) then there would be no need for a resurrection.
> 
> Of course the correct interpretation says that everyone gets resurrected from their graves (hell) and then saved and that makes sense with no contradiction.
> 
> The notion that people are being tortured in hell-fire by Jesus Christ is very far from the Gospel message and far from the truth.



You are totally wrong....again.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

PsyOps said:


> So let me get this straight... There are those that hate Jesus and God, but God loves them anyway and will accept them into heaven even though they hate Him?
> 
> I can't wait to see why God would want someone that hates Him in His kingdom.
> 
> Are you telling me that if I hate you, and aim to curse you at every available moment you're going to invite me in your home?  I wonder how long that visit will last.



Especially since God tossed satan and a third of the angels out of His kingdom already.

JPC must read the Bible, but he shows that he understands little to none of it just as he understands little to none of the the law or about personal responsibility or care of one's family.

JPC, you are truly a sad sack.


----------



## PsyOps

2ndAmendment said:


> JPC must read the Bible, but he shows that he understands little to none of it just as he understands little to none of the the law or about personal responsibility or care of one's family.



I think JPC understands things more than he leads on.  It seems it is in his nature to be a contrarian to everything considered normal.  From that end I really don’t know why I even bother.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> I think JPC understands things more than he leads on.  It seems it is in his nature to be a contrarian to everything considered normal.  From that end I really don’t know why I even bother.


 It is correct that I understand the subject well and I do know the other side of the stories and I know about the many versions of Christian Orthodoxy too.

IMO, it is persons like yourself and 2A and others that hide behind the Orthodox claims and refuse to face the truth.

I too find myself against many things that are considered as "normal" and I highly recommend the abnormal.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I too find myself against many things that are considered as "normal" *and I highly recommend the abnormal*.



Now we finally agree on something.  And that about sums it all up.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Now we finally agree on something.  And that about sums it all up.


 Just a few questions for you since  you prize the normal.

Are the Catholics normal?

Are the Protestants normal? since they are not Papist.

Are the Jehovah Witnesses normal?

The Mormons? the Athiest? the Buddhist? Hindu? Taoist?

Is it just those that disagree with "PsyOps" version are the abnormal?

or do you consider me as special?


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> Just a few questions for you since  you prize the normal.
> 
> Are the Catholics normal?
> 
> Are the Protestants normal? since they are not Papist.
> 
> Are the Jehovah Witnesses normal?
> 
> The Mormons? the Athiest? the Buddhist? Hindu? Taoist?
> 
> Is it just those that disagree with "PsyOps" version are the abnormal?
> 
> or do you consider me as *special*?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



camily said:


>


 Just FYI,

I have no idea what is meant by the short school bus.

If it is meant as a symbol of some hidden message then I do not know what the message is at all.

FYI.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Just FYI,
> 
> I have no idea what is meant by the short school bus.
> 
> If it is meant as a symbol of some hidden message then I do not know what the message is at all.
> 
> FYI.


You prove her correct about her reference with this post!


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> You prove her correct about her reference with this post!


 You might think yourself funny but the bus means only a bus and nothing else.

There are short buses that carry kids to school so it is not a positive nor a negative icon.

That being your "proof" then no one has proven anything.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Just a few questions for you since  you prize the normal.
> 
> Are the Catholics normal?
> 
> Are the Protestants normal? since they are not Papist.
> 
> Are the Jehovah Witnesses normal?
> 
> The Mormons? the Athiest? the Buddhist? Hindu? Taoist?
> 
> Is it just those that disagree with "PsyOps" version are the abnormal?
> 
> or do you consider me as special?



JPC… This has nothing to do with being Catholic, protestant, or any other denomination or faith.  It has to do with Christ and the Bible.  You started this thread talking about Christ; the Christ of the Bible.  My belief in Christ is quite normal.  I don’t raise points that only comply with MY thinking.  I have given you verse after verse that disputes your claim that EVERYONE, no matter what, goes to heaven.  You have rejected this.  You have chosen your own version of the Bible; a version that picks and chooses what supports your twisted thinking, and dismisses everything else.  And you have chosen to describe everyone, other than you, as abnormal.  You are the only one in this forum that believes this nonsense – THE ONLY ONE!  This SHOULD tell you something, but it doesn’t.  I’m not sure what makes a person believe the sky is purple when everyone is telling them its blue.  You see things the way you see them regardless of the truth.  You seem little interested in the truth but rather you own version of the truth based on your contrarian mentality.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> And you have chosen to describe everyone, other than you, as abnormal.


 I liked everything you said but this one line above.

I said that I am the abnormal one and that most other people fit into some kind of normalcy like sheep.

If fact I believe it is the "normal" people that have messed up our society with their self righteous demands.

Most normal people drive me crazy with their do-nothing-to-rock-the-boat timidness.

That is all.


----------



## This_person

PsyOps said:


> JPC… This has nothing to do with being Catholic, protestant, or any other denomination or faith.  It has to do with Christ and the Bible.  You started this thread talking about Christ; the Christ of the Bible.  My belief in Christ is quite normal.  I don’t raise points that only comply with MY thinking.  *I have given you verse after verse that disputes your claim that EVERYONE, no matter what, goes to heaven.*  You have rejected this.  *You have chosen your own version of the Bible; a version that picks and chooses what supports your twisted thinking, and dismisses everything else.*  And you have chosen to describe everyone, other than you, as abnormal.  You are the only one in this forum that believes this nonsense – THE ONLY ONE!  This SHOULD tell you something, but it doesn’t.  I’m not sure what makes a person believe the sky is purple when everyone is telling them its blue.  *You see things the way you see them regardless of the truth.  You seem little interested in the truth but rather you own version of the truth based on your contrarian mentality*.





JPC sr said:


> I liked everything you said but this one line above.  Edit:  The line Jimmy is referring to is the one in blue.  The bold ones are my highlights to show what Jimmy "liked"




Jimmy, you "like" the highlighted lines (since you liked "everything" but the blue line).  This implies you have some serious mental issues.

But, then again, what about you doesn't.?


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I have no idea what is meant by the short school bus.
> 
> If it is meant as a symbol of some hidden message then I do not know what the message is at all.





JPC sr said:


> ... the bus means only a bus and nothing else.
> 
> There are short buses that carry kids to school so it is not a positive nor a negative icon.


You "have no idea what is meant by the short school bus", but, you know that it "means only a bus nothing else".  

You slay me!  

More proof, that's all, Jimmy.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Jimmy, you "like" the highlighted lines (since you liked "everything" but the blue line).  This implies you have some serious mental issues.


 I respect what "PsyOps" posted and his religious beliefs and it does not matter to me that my beliefs and his beliefs are different.

In fact I respect the fact that he does testify about it and that he gives his true feelings on the subject.

And I find that most of religion is a positive mental issue that make the person stronger.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I said that I am the abnormal one and that most other people fit into some kind of normalcy like sheep.



That's not what you said.  You accused me of calling you abnormal because you disagree with me:



JPC sr said:


> Is it just those that disagree with "PsyOps" version are the abnormal?



You should really make up your mind.  But I will humbly agree with you; you *are* abnormal.  I have no problem being called a sheep since that is what Jesus referred to his followers:



> I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep... John 10:11





JPC sr said:


> If fact I believe it is the "normal" people that have messed up our society with their self righteous demands.
> 
> Most normal people drive me crazy with their do-nothing-to-rock-the-boat timidness.
> 
> That is all.



It is your purpose to create anarchy.  YOU are the one that rocks the boat.  You are the one that stands contrary to everything our society tries to adhere to: the law, recognizing the enemy, responsibility to what you have brought into this world, responsibility to yourself.  Rocking the boat is fine if it serves a greater purpose.  You rock the boat for the sole purpose of just rocking the boat.  If you really believe all of your contrarian views then you only chose to live a frustrated life.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I respect what "PsyOps" posted and his religious beliefs and it does not matter to me that my beliefs and his beliefs are different.


Thank you for agreeing with me, and adding the word respect.

I'm glad to know that you like and respect his (and my) view that "You see things the way you see them regardless of the truth. You seem little interested in the truth but rather you own version of the truth based on your contrarian mentality."


----------



## This_person

PsyOps said:


> It is your purpose to create anarchy.  YOU are the one that rocks the boat.  You are the one that stands contrary to everything our society tries to adhere to: the law, recognizing the enemy, responsibility to what you have brought into this world, responsibility to yourself.  Rocking the boat is fine if it serves a greater purpose.  You rock the boat for the sole purpose of just rocking the boat.  If you really believe all of your contrarian views then you only chose to live a frustrated life.


Well spoken!


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> It is your purpose to create anarchy.  YOU are the one that rocks the boat.  You are the one that stands contrary to everything our society tries to adhere to: the law, recognizing the enemy, responsibility to what you have brought into this world, responsibility to yourself.


  I agree and we are in agreement as I said that I do rock the boat, and I am happy to do so.

And to quote myself from an earlier post in this thread :   

"Most normal people drive me crazy with their do-nothing-to-rock-the-boat timidness."





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> Rocking the boat is fine if it serves a greater purpose.  You rock the boat for the sole purpose of just rocking the boat.


 That is underestimating me and my "purposes",

because I want to turn the nasty boat over and not just rock it.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> If you really believe all of your contrarian views then you only chose to live a frustrated life.


 That is very true and I do get frustrated and live frustrated.

I believe that comes from resisting the evils of this society with little success which is frustrating but it is still my Christian duty.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I agree and we are in agreement as I said that I do rock the boat, and I am happy to do so.
> 
> "Most normal people drive me crazy with their do-nothing-to-rock-the-boat timidness."
> 
> I want to turn the nasty boat over and not just rock it.  I do get frustrated and live frustrated.


I used to think you didn't get people's point when they said stuff like this to you.  I understand now that you do get their point.  You are agreeing with his point that you rock the boat for no greater purpose than to rock the boat - indeed you'd be most proud to completely turn the boat over for no other purpose than turning the boat over.

You may want to consider therapy to help you understand that it's not EVERYONE else who is wrong, and ONLY you understanding that.  If you were capable of logical reasoning, you could come to it on your own, but clearly you are not.  This is why I seriously suggest the therapy.  It would help you get over being so frustrated with life.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> I used to think you didn't get people's point when they said stuff like this to you.  I understand now that you do get their point.  You are agreeing with his point that you rock the boat for no greater purpose than to rock the boat - indeed you'd be most proud to completely turn the boat over for no other purpose than turning the boat over.
> 
> You may want to consider therapy to help you understand that it's not EVERYONE else who is wrong, and ONLY you understanding that.  If you were capable of logical reasoning, you could come to it on your own, but clearly you are not.  This is why I seriously suggest the therapy.  It would help you get over being so frustrated with life.


 T_p had better learn to swim in what is coming to his kind,

because his dirty little boat is going to be sent to the bottom of the ocean with my help,

and I shall have the final laugh from the shore line.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> T_p had better learn to swim in what is coming to his kind, because his dirty little boat is going to be sent to the bottom of the ocean with my help, and I shall have the final laugh from the shore line.


Jimmy, is that a personal threat?  "better learn to swim", "sent to the bottom of the ocean *with my help*".....

You should be careful with things like that.

I have to ask, why do you respond to me?  You know you're morally wrong in what you say and that you'll be proven wrong in the vast majority of your posts, etc....  Do you get some sort of masochistic thrill?


----------



## MMDad

JPC sr said:


> T_p had better learn to swim in what is coming to his kind,
> 
> because his dirty little boat is going to be sent to the bottom of the ocean with my help,
> 
> and I shall have the final laugh from the shore line.



But Jimmy, I thought your point was that it doesn't matter what you do, say, or believe. There are no consequences. Everyone is saved.

So how could This_person face any consequences in not believing you? Either you are wrong, there is a hell, and he's saved. Or you're right, and he is saved no matter what he believes.

Do you really think that God likes people who stand on the shore and watch people drown? Is that the kind benevolent God you believe in? It would explain a lot, since you did stand on the shore and watch your family sent to the bottom of the ocean after you abandoned them....


----------



## This_person

MMDad said:


> It would explain a lot, since you did stand on the shore and watch your family sent to the bottom of the ocean after you abandoned them....


He doesn't like the word "abandoned", he prefers "deserted". 





JPC sr said:


> Actually that is rightly called baseless slander accusations and it is not "abandonment" at all.





JPC sr said:


> When I first separated I paid all the bills as she stayed in our house and that was rediculous as it was like I just was not home, so then I stopped and she would not file for divorce or for child support so again it was unacceptable, then it was thought that they could live off the family or the gov if need be, but since there was property and credit available then the time restraints became a problem, so *I deserted to let them figure it out*.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



MMDad said:


> But Jimmy, I thought your point was that it doesn't matter what you do, say, or believe. There are no consequences. Everyone is saved.
> 
> So how could This_person face any consequences in not believing you? Either you are wrong, there is a hell, and he's saved. Or you're right, and he is saved no matter what he believes.
> 
> Do you really think that God likes people who stand on the shore and watch people drown? Is that the kind benevolent God you believe in?


 I am not talking about his ignorant boat sinking after he dies.

I mean to sink it now in this present world of the living.

And I do believe in consiquences, as we all reap what we sow here and now.


----------



## MMDad

JPC sr said:


> And I do believe in consiquences, as we all reap what we sow here and now.



Consequences.... Hmmmmmm..... I guess we do reap what we sow. That would explain why you are such a pathetic, impotent, broken down, worhtless excuse for a man. You got out of your life exactly what you put into it. Nothing.

Just think, Jimmy. If you'd have actually put some effort into your life you might actually be something today. But it's too late now. You've run away every time the going got tough, and in return you earned nothing. You have truly reaped what you sowed.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



MMDad said:


> Consequences.... Hmmmmmm..... I guess we do reap what we sow. That would explain why you are such a pathetic, impotent, broken down, worhtless excuse for a man. You got out of your life exactly what you put into it. Nothing.
> 
> Just think, Jimmy. If you'd have actually put some effort into your life you might actually be something today. But it's too late now. You've run away every time the going got tough, and in return you earned nothing. You have truly reaped what you sowed.


  I am satisfied with my own,

as I say things are going well for my side.

And everybody gets saved on Judgement Day, so rock and roll the cruddy boats.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I am not talking about his ignorant boat sinking after he dies.
> 
> *I mean to sink it now in this present world of the living.*
> 
> And I do believe in consiquences, as we all reap what we sow here and now.


Well, that's two out and out threats!  If I didn't think you were incapable of tying your own shoes, let alone hurting someone, I might feel actually threatened!

Are you talking about your "threat" to change the child support system?  Is that your delusion?  I would have to receive child support for that to be a threat.  My ex is most often a deadbeat, unsupportive, uncaring, useless excuse for a parent (like you were and continue to be), so it would have no effect on me even in the 0.00000000000001% chance you would succeed in anything you attempt.

As for reaping what we sow, I'm a decent, honorable, and upstanding _contributing_ citizen with the love and respect of family and friends.  I'm accomplished in my career, my children seek and listen to my advise, and my wife and I love each other very much.  You are a load on society, who admits to being "well known" by the local police, with a son who is constantly in trouble with the law, that won't follow your advise.  You're the laughing stock of anyone who's read your words - your name invokes anger and resentment in decent, honest, God-loving people.

So, even by your own words, we've reaped what we've sown, you and I.  I hope and pray and take actions every day that are consistent with someone who will be saved in the end.  You inspire contempt and pity in anyone who's read your words, and you've sown a son who can't stay sober and gambles his child's health and prosperity away.

I'll take the gamble of your "tipping over" my boat!


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I agree and we are in agreement as I said that I do rock the boat, and I am happy to do so.
> 
> And to quote myself from an earlier post in this thread :
> 
> "Most normal people drive me crazy with their do-nothing-to-rock-the-boat timidness."



If rocking boat is in light of the truth then it serves a purpose.  If rocking the boat means manipulating the truth its only purpose is self-serving.



JPC sr said:


> That is underestimating me and my "purposes",
> 
> because I want to turn the nasty boat over and not just rock it.



Make sure you have your life vest on.  You seem to be the only one in this boat.



JPC sr said:


> That is very true and I do get frustrated and live frustrated.
> 
> I believe that comes from resisting the evils of this society with little success which is frustrating but it is still my Christian duty.



When you have nearly everyone telling you that you have the facts wrong and you don’t get that message it’s quite obvious you will live in frustration.  But your mind is set on this path (whatever it is) and at your age very little will change that I suppose.  It seems things have happened in your life that have caused you to be bitter towards certain establishments.  But I believe it has also caused you to lose site of the greater picture of certain truths.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> When you have nearly everyone telling you that you have the facts wrong and you don’t get that message it’s quite obvious you will live in frustration.


 If you consider my heckler group here to be "everyone telling me", then you are very mistaken indeed.

I have many people that agree with my positions and many tell me so.

Many people will not post because of the forum bullies on here but not I.

Perhaps since you say these hecklers amount to being "everyone" then that must be your other expressed idea on "normal" too.

The hecklers on here might be normal for forum bullies but those do nothing.

I am the one that spray paint the State Bldgs and I run for election and I do much more while those here steal from their children's mothers.

I have my facts very correct and all you will get by being "normal" is worthless green Karma.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Perhaps since you say these hecklers amount to being "everyone" then that must be your other expressed idea on "normal" too.
> 
> I am the one that spray paint the State Bldgs and I run for election and I do much more while those here *steal from their children's mothers.*
> 
> I have my facts very correct.


Gee, did you have anyone in mind?  

If you have your facts correct, why is it that you are *proven* wrong so often, and you won't provide the "evidence" for your "facts" when there is evidence provided against your "facts"?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> If you have your facts correct, why is it that you are *proven* wrong so often, and you won't provide the "evidence" for your "facts" when there is evidence provided against your "facts"?


 For a heckler you add absolutely nothing to the conversation.

I gave all the facts about everyone being saved from the first post to this one.

*Duh*.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> For a heckler you add absolutely nothing to the conversation.
> 
> I gave all the facts about everyone being saved from the first post to this one.
> 
> *Duh*.


And, you've proven your inability to accept others' points of view by not recognizing that your "facts" are wrong interpretations and cherry-picked omissions of the real facts.

Once again, Shortbus Jimmy, you're proving my point about your incompetance.

I have to ask you again, why do you respond to me?  Nine out of ten times you're shown to be wrong and stupid (the tenth time you're only shown to be wrong OR stupid, not both, so ya got that going for ya!).


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> I have to ask you again, why do you respond to me?


 You have been carrying-on about me ignoring you,

and now you ask why do I respond to you.

If you stop asking me questions then you will get far less responses from me.

Of course that would mean that you would have to actually do some thing by restraining your self.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> that would mean that you would have to actually do some thing.


And, what is it you do, again?  Throw temper tantrums at buildings to get out of being there for your son?  Get ignored by your son?  Skip out on your family?

You have been busy.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> And, what is it you do, again?  Throw temper tantrums at buildings to get out of being there for your son?  Get ignored by your son?  Skip out on your family?
> 
> You have been busy.


 I realize you follow me around like some stray dog,

but the thread is not about me, and you waste our time in talking ONLY about me.

This is the "Religion" forum with a religious thread on a religious topic, so you are abusing the Forum by putting your heckling over me onto it.

I believe you are olny one of very few here that only want to talk about me and it is absurd.

This obsession of yours is very childish and you need to grow up.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I have many people that agree with my positions and many tell me so.
> 
> Many people will not post because of the forum bullies on here but not I.



Okay, I wait for those that agree with you.  I promise I wont heckle them  



JPC sr said:


> Perhaps since you say these hecklers amount to being "everyone" then that must be your other expressed idea on "normal" too.
> 
> The hecklers on here might be normal for forum bullies but those do nothing.
> 
> I am the one that spray paint the State Bldgs and I run for election and I do much more while those here steal from their children's mothers.
> 
> I have my facts very correct and all you will get by being "normal" is worthless green Karma.



You spray painted a state building, breaking the law.  You still stand by this act as justified thus encouraging others that breaking the law is the way to solve ones problems.  If you get elected into congress is this how you will solve your problems if you don't get your way in Congress, spray paint the Capital building?  Or are you going to propose a law that will make defacing a state or federal building legal only to support your admitted “abnormal” behavior?  When 99.9% of society behaves rationally and solves their problems within the law I think it's fair for them to heckle you for believing you should be afforded some special privilege to subvert the law.  And not only laws that guide our every day lives but the laws of nature and morality.  You seem to be disinterested in acknowledging these things are what keep our society from chaos.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> You spray painted a state building, breaking the law.  You still stand by this act as justified thus encouraging others that breaking the law is the way to solve ones problems.


 The rightful use of non violent civil disobedience is a proven method of protest.  

I highly recommend it.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> If you get elected into congress is this how you will solve your problems if you don't get your way in Congress, spray paint the Capital building?


 Of course not. 

When I get elected to Congress then I will become one of the law makers so I could not sensibly spray paint my own Office Building.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> Or are you going to propose a law that will make defacing a state or federal building legal only to support your admitted “abnormal” behavior?


 No, civil disobediance being illegal is the point.  

If the civil disobediance act were to be made legal then it would lose its true value of protest.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> When 99.9% of society behaves rationally and solves their problems within the law I think it's fair for them to heckle you for believing you should be afforded some special privilege to subvert the law.


 I do not say to stop heckling, I just want others to see that is what they are doing.

I do not approve of heckling in most cases as it is not civil disobediance but just being a nuisance or cry baby.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> And not only laws that guide our every day lives but the laws of nature and morality.  You seem to be disinterested in acknowledging these things are what keep our society from chaos.


 I do see that those false claims of "laws of nature and morality" are really injustices and gov violence against the population.

Oppression and tyranny and fear mongering might well hold this society together but it needs to be improved.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I do not approve of heckling in most cases as it is not civil disobediance but just being a nuisance or cry baby.



I seem to recall you approved of the Westboro Baptist church "heckling" the mourners of their fallen military family members.  Now you are telling me you do not approve of such heckling?  Man, you are all over the place.  Your number one problem is you have no single moral or ethical foundation.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> I seem to recall you approved of the Westboro Baptist church "heckling" the mourners of their fallen military family members.  Now you are telling me you do not approve of such heckling?  Man, you are all over the place.  Your number one problem is you have no single moral or ethical foundation.


 I would never myself participate in that funeral protest but I argue that they have the right to do so.

I do separate my religious dictates from my political positions.

And I truly believe in being very flexible as "the tree that does not bend with the wind will surely snap" so bending my positions to meet the needs is my way and I say it is the best way.

My single moral and ethical foundation is for only myself and I am easier on others that fall short or fail.


----------



## Kevlar

JPC sr said:


> My single moral and ethical foundation is for only myself


 Being self centered and self serving is neither moral or ethical.

Are you for real, or are you somebody else pretending to be theis "JPC" guy? You sure are doing a good job of making him look like an idiot. Does he know you are on here sabotaging his campaign?


----------



## PsyOps

Gospel of Inclusion. 11-28-2007 10:30 PM He has a good point. Please for God's sake leave this guy be, this is the religion forum! 

Okay I promised I wouldn't heckle you, but I have to know specifically which points you see as valid?

“This guy” is volunteering to engage in this debate, so leaving him alone serves no purpose but to allow “this guy” to spew his fallacies.  And leaving (or anyone) alone defeats the purpose of a forum.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> The rightful use of non violent civil disobedience is a proven method of protest.  I highly recommend it.


Responsible, reasonable discourse, working within the system and accepting failure and gains with grace and dignity (and respect for the process) are the methods of responsible adults.  I wonder if you'll ever try that method?





> Of course not. When I get elected to Congress then I will become one of the law makers so I could not sensibly spray paint my own Office Building.


And, when you lose?  Will you spraypaint the your opponents homes, instead?  No, Jimmy, you've demonstrated your distaste for our country and it's laws, so you won't have the opportunity to do these things.





> I do not say to stop heckling, I just want others to see that is what they are doing.  I do not approve of heckling in most cases as it is not civil disobediance but just being a nuisance or cry baby.


Perhaps what you call heckling is merely people pointing out what they see are falacies and inaccuracies in what you have to say.   Legally, by pointing it out in a (normally) productive manner how wrong you are in most everything you say, we can be helpful to anyone who reads you without causing damage to any property.  


> I do see that those false claims of "laws of nature and morality" are really injustices and gov violence against the population.


I don't think you have grasped that the government is made up of the population, and needs to answer to those bosses every two years (in the case of HoR).  Why do you think the majority of people accept the issues as they are by voting people in with these values you call injustice and violence?  Think hard Jimmy.  It's that they're not really injustices or violence.  It's that they're "laws of nature and morality".  The vast majority of people understand these things, and you don't.  Please, seek therapy.  I'm not saying that sarcastically or beligerantly.  I'm saying it with your future in mind.  Hopefully, it can be better than your past.





> Oppression and tyranny and fear mongering might well hold this society together but it needs to be improved.


Improved - certainly.  Nothing you've ever suggested is an improvement though.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



Kevlar said:


> Being self centered and self serving is neither moral or ethical.


 That can be true and correct but for a principle it falls short.

Jesus said to clean out our own eye first so we can see clearly in helping others - paraphrased link HERE.

So we really do need to be self centered and self serving in the correct ways before one can preach rightfully to others.

It is a two (2) step method of fix thyself first then take it to the world.

This is what I have done and still try to do.





			
				Kevlar said:
			
		

> Are you for real, or are you somebody else pretending to be the "JPC" guy? You sure are doing a good job of making him look like an idiot. Does he know you are on here sabotaging his campaign?


 I am the real person, 

and to "look" like an "idiot" is very misleading because looks are deceptive.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Okay I promised I wouldn't heckle you, but I have to know specifically which points you see as valid?


 All my karma goes out as gray or blue since I am the King of red Karma.

So my most valid point of this thread is that:

*Everybody gets saved because Jesus paid the penalty for everyone.*


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> All my karma goes out as gray or blue since I am the King of red Karma.
> 
> So my most valid point of this thread is that:
> 
> *Everybody gets saved because Jesus paid the penalty for everyone.*



LIE from the pits of hell!


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> All my karma goes out as gray or blue since I am the King of red Karma.
> 
> So my most valid point of this thread is that:
> 
> *Everybody gets saved because Jesus paid the penalty for everyone.*



Everyone… you are relieved of any spiritual responsibility of your actions.  Go steal, lie, cheat, blaspheme God, murder, whatever… Do not ask for forgiveness, as it is not necessary; you are saved anyway.  A new day has been born where we no longer have to act in accordance with God’s will: love one another, do unto other, the 10 Commandments, etc...  You don’t even have to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior.  JPC has granted us a new way to salvation.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> That can be true and correct but for a principle it falls short.
> 
> Jesus said to clean out our own eye first so we can see clearly in helping others - paraphrased link HERE.
> 
> So we really do need to be self centered and self serving in the correct ways before one can preach rightfully to others.
> 
> It is a two (2) step method of fix thyself first then take it to the world.
> 
> This is what I have done and still try to do. I am the real person,
> 
> and to "look" like an "idiot" is very misleading because looks are deceptive.


"Jesus said to clean out our own eye first so we can see clearly in helping others -   So we really do need to be self centered and self serving in the correct ways before one can preach rightfully to others."

You've got to be kidding me... This thread had priests believing in gospel of inclusion... I think even their heads would spin on this one!  How in the world can an educated or uneducated person get that out a verse...


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Everyone… you are relieved of any spiritual responsibility of your actions.  Go steal, lie, cheat, blaspheme God, murder, whatever… Do not ask for forgiveness, as it is not necessary; you are saved anyway.  A new day has been born where we no longer have to act in accordance with God’s will: love one another, do unto other, the 10 Commandments, etc...  You don’t even have to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior.  JPC has granted us a new way to salvation.


 If we (or one) commit any sin now then we reap what we sow now in this present time.

If one  does "lie, cheat, blaspheme God, murder", etc., then they will pay any penalty ourself now as we live in this present world and not after death.

If one steals then they live as a thief, or perhaps goes to jail, same with murder or any sin then the person lives here as a murderer and maybe life in jail or executed by the law but not torture for all eternity after they die.

The ten commandments and all of Jesus teachings ALL tell us how to live now because now is what matters and not after death because after death is all taken care of by Jesus sacrifice.

Consider Adolf Hitler as he must be in Hell now some 62 years in torment and torture with the loving Christ looking on if the Orthodox "Hell" were true, and claiming we do not know who is in Hell is a big cop-out because if Hitler is not burning then the rest of us certainly do not compare to him so that if Hitler is not burning then we sure have nothing to worry about.

I say the "Hell" is not a correct interpretation and that Jesus would never do that to anyone, and Jesus said to love our enemies link HERE because our Father in Heaven does that. 

If Adolf Hitler (or anyone else) is burning in Hell then that God would be a tyrant and a monster and a hypocrite.

But fortunately Jesus did pay the penalty in full (not partial) and all of mankind does get saved.

Hitler was punished here on earth. His thousand year empire fell before his eyes and he had to kill himself in total defeat and on Judgement Day he will probably be the most repentant of us all because his greater sins are forgiven as are our lesser sins are by the blood of Christ.

On Judgement Day then everyone will be a true believer.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> If we (or one) commit any sin now then we reap what we sow now in this present time.
> 
> If one  does "lie, cheat, blaspheme God, murder", etc., then they will pay any penalty ourself now as we live in this present world and not after death.
> 
> If one steals then they live as a thief, or perhaps goes to jail, same with murder or any sin then the person lives here as a murderer and maybe life in jail or executed by the law but not torture for all eternity after they die.
> 
> The ten commandments and all of Jesus teachings ALL tell us how to live now because now is what matters and not after death because after death is all taken care of by Jesus sacrifice.
> 
> Consider Adolf Hitler as he must be in Hell now some 62 years in torment and torture with the loving Christ looking on if the Orthodox "Hell" were true, and claiming we do not know who is in Hell is a big cop-out because if Hitler is not burning then the rest of us certainly do not compare to him so that if Hitler is not burning then we sure have nothing to worry about.
> 
> I say the "Hell" is not a correct interpretation and that Jesus would never do that to anyone, and Jesus said to love our enemies link HERE because our Father in Heaven does that.
> 
> If Adolf Hitler (or anyone else) is burning in Hell then that God would be a tyrant and a monster and a hypocrite.
> 
> But fortunately Jesus did pay the penalty in full (not partial) and all of mankind does get saved.
> 
> Hitler was punished here on earth. His thousand year empire fell before his eyes and he had to kill himself in total defeat and on Judgement Day he will probably be the most repentant of us all because his greater sins are forgiven as are our lesser sins are by the blood of Christ.
> 
> On Judgement Day then everyone will be a true believer.


Hitler did not have a 1000 year empire.

Everyone _can_ be saved, Jesus died for all, but not everyone _will_ be saved because those that do not believe and do not accept lose out on the gift. At the judgment, everyone will believe for then they will see with their own eyes, but it will be too late for those that did not accept Jesus as Savior and Lord in this life by faith without seeing.

JPC, you are preaching a *false gospel*, a *lie.* If you lose the election, take it as a sign that you are wrong about this lie you are asking everyone to believe and change your ways.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Hitler did not have a 1000 year empire.


 The thousand year German Empire was Hitler's plan that failed with him.

Of course 2A avoids the whole question about Hitler burning (or not burning) but I want people to see that even Hitler gets saved link HERE.

Everybody gets saved.





			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Everyone _can_ be saved, Jesus died for all, but not everyone _will_ be saved because those that do not believe and do not accept lose out on the gift. At the judgment, everyone will believe for then they will see with their own eyes, but it will be too late for those that did not accept Jesus as Savior and Lord in this life by faith without seeing.


 See this above is putting a human condition onto God's unconditional love, link again HERE.

There are no conditions when even our enemies get saved.





			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> JPC, you are preaching a *false gospel*, a *lie.* If you lose the election, take it as a sign that you are wrong about this lie you are asking everyone to believe and change your ways.


 My election campaign has nothing to do with Biblical truths.

John the Baptist preached the truth and got his head cut off, then Jesus preached and got crucified.

Perhaps you might see those like Bush and Hoyer that won the worldly election as being thereby correct - but I say not.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The thousand year German Empire was Hitler's plan that failed with him.
> 
> Of course 2A avoids the whole question about Hitler burning (or not burning) but I want people to see that even Hitler gets saved link HERE.
> 
> Everybody gets saved. See this above is putting a human condition onto God's unconditional love, link again HERE.
> 
> There are no conditions when even our enemies get saved. My election campaign has nothing to do with Biblical truths.
> 
> John the Baptist preached the truth and got his head cut off, then Jesus preached and got crucified.
> 
> Perhaps you might see those like Bush and Hoyer that won the worldly election as being thereby correct - but I say not.



I won't state whether Hitler is in heaven or not. That is between God and Hitler.

Your election has everything to do with Biblical truth since you are the one that compared yourself to David. God is in control of all who come to power. If you win, it is because God wants you to and I will have to accept that you are preaching the truth. If you lose, then God does not want you in power and it may be because, as we all know from the Bible, you are preaching lies.

The concept that everyone gets saved is a *lie.*


----------



## hvp05

2ndAmendment said:


> If you lose the election, take it as a sign that you are wrong about this lie you are asking everyone to believe and change your ways.


I told him that once a few months back...

... it didn't work.  In fact, he never responded to my point at all.


> JPC sr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I even believe in a God watching over me so that if I do lie then I reap what I sow - whatever that might be.
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy, have you ever heard the parable of the man deserted on an island?  Being intensely devout, he knew God would save him.  So he waited.  A boat arrived and he turned it down, saying God would come.  A sea plane spots him and lands, and he turns it away saying God would come.  Lastly, a helicopter comes his way and he turns it down for the same reason.  Eventually the man dies from starvation, and when he meets God he disappointedly questions, "I waited for your help, why did you not come, Lord?"  And God says, "I tried *three* times, and you turned away every attempt."  (Or something like that...)
> 
> Now, you said, "if I do lie then I reap what I sow."  You were injured multiple times at work many years ago.  Then you became estranged from and despised by your family - blood and extended.  Incarcerated multiple times.  Dupuytren's contracture (from excessive alcohol).  Living on public/government aid.  One failed campaign for public office - and in the midst of another.  And laughed at and mocked by most of the people that learn of your beliefs.
> 
> See now, your story is very different from that of the man on the island, but the ultimate point remains the same...  God has put you in a downward spiral of failure.  *You are reaping what you have sown by being a complete failure and disgrace.*  Yet you persist in your beliefs, even in the desire to spread those beliefs via public office.  Don't you see that God doesn't want that to happen?  You continually scoff at the others here - even though they are the ones who would actually put you in office, but how can you scoff at the will of God?  _(Post.)_
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

hvp05 said:


> I told him that once a few months back...
> 
> ... it didn't work.  In fact, he never responded to my point at all.



And now JPC is suggesting that withholding information from the people by not telling the Washington Post reporter his whole platform is OK. Half truth is lie in my way of thinking, so JPC is suggesting that lying is OK. By golly, there isn't much difference between him and Hoyer ... if you leave out sanity.


----------



## hvp05

2ndAmendment said:


> JPC is suggesting that withholding information from the people by not telling the Washington Post reporter his whole platform is OK.


But he comes on the forum nearly daily to trumpet his failed views.  Funny, eh?  I think his slick aversion of certain issues is, in fact, an admission, inadvertent though it may be.  He is finally realizing that virtually everyone sees him as a nutjob when he spouts venom against child support, the "greed growth", and numerous other things.

The problem is he thinks no one will notice if he just doesn't talk about more than one or two issues.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> So my most valid point of this thread is that:
> 
> *Everybody gets saved because Jesus paid the penalty for everyone.*





2ndAmendment said:


> LIE from the pits of hell!


 The two (2) quotes above demonstrate one of the BIG contradictions of the Bible and yet it is only a contradiction between people and interpretations.

The first shows God as unconditional love and as a caring Father to mankind link HERE.

While the second quote is meant to frieghten people with threats of torture in Hell after death, which is not the way link HERE.

The word for "Hell" only meant the common grave or tomb of the dead bodies.

The false idea of a place of torture came from the Greek religion with Hades link HERE.

This is an important message that people need to know.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The two (2) quotes above demonstrate one of the BIG contradictions of the Bible and yet it is only a contradiction between people and interpretations.
> 
> The first shows God as unconditional love and as a caring Father to mankind link HERE.
> 
> While the second quote is meant to frieghten people with threats of torture in Hell after death, which is not the way link HERE.
> 
> The word for "Hell" only meant the common grave or tomb of the dead bodies.
> 
> The false idea of a place of torture came from the Greek religion with Hades link HERE.
> 
> This is an important message that people need to know.



The only reason I post that what JPC has posted about this is a lie is becuse it is. 

JPC and others that believe this false doctrine are looking for a free ride on their own terms. What is new for JPC? The person who is posting the lie should be evidence enough that what is being posted in suspect at best. But, in the chance that someone may come here and read what JPC posts and have some inkling that it is what the Bible states, I must point that what JPC posts is falsehoods.

It is absolutely true that Jesus died to provide the blood sacrifice necessary to save all people, but, as with all gifts, it comes with a requirement, you must actively, not passively, accept the gift through repentance, love of God, and showing love for God through the way you live your life. 

JPC is teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. The idea that we can do whatever we want, and not have to worry about incurring a rebuke from Jesus, is in line with the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. What did Jesus say of the  deeds of the Nicolaitans? 





> Revelation 2:6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.


 and 





> Revelation 2:14-16
> 
> 14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
> 
> 15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
> 
> 16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.


I think I remember JPC says that he didn't agree with the book of Revelation. No wonder that someone who preaches and seems to live the doctrine of the Nicolaitans would not like the scripture where Jesus declares He hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans.

Do not be deceived by the false doctrine JPC is proclaiming.


----------



## camily

The gospel of inclusion preaches a reconstructed, therapeutic Jesus, who accepts us exactly as we are. Traditional Christianity, however, holds that Jesus calls us to repentance of sins, and to transformation through a new life lived in accordance with God's will.

The gospel of inclusion has little place for repentance or transformation. Thus, it has little place for the central feature of Christianity: Christ's Cross, which brings redemption through suffering. This new gospel may be appealing, for it permits its adherents to "divinize" their own, largely secular agenda. But in a Christian church, it cannot easily coexist with the Gospel of Christ.
More...............
From gotquestions.org
What is the gospel of inclusion?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Question: "What is the gospel of inclusion?"

Answer: The gospel of inclusion is simply the old heresy of universalism re-packaged and given a new name. Universalism is the belief that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven. The gospel of inclusion, as taught by Carlton Pearson, encompasses these false beliefs:

(1) The gospel of inclusion espouses that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ paid the price for all of humanity to enjoy eternal life in heaven without any need for repentance.

(2) The gospel of inclusion teaches that salvation is unconditional and does not even require faith in Jesus Christ as the payment for mankind’s sin debt.

(3) The gospel of inclusion believes that all humanity is destined to life in heaven whether or not they realize it.

(4) The gospel of inclusion declares that all humanity will go to heaven regardless of religious affiliation.

(5) Lastly, the gospel of inclusion holds that only those who intentionally and consciously reject the grace of God—after having “tasted the fruit” of His grace—will spend eternity separated from God.

The gospel of inclusion runs counter to the clear teachings of Jesus and the Bible. In John’s gospel, Jesus clearly states that the only path to salvation is through Him (John 14:6). God sent Jesus into the world to secure salvation for a fallen humanity, but that salvation is only available to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ as God’s payment for their sin (John 3:16). The apostles echo this message (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:8-9; 1 John 5:13). Faith in Jesus Christ means no longer trying to secure salvation based on works, but rather trusting that what Jesus did was sufficient to secure salvation.

In conjunction with faith is repentance. The two go hand-in-hand. Repentance is a change of mind about your sin and need for salvation through Christ by faith (Acts 2:38). The act of repentance is one in which we acknowledge that before God we’re sinners incapable of earning our way to salvation, so we repent (the Greek word for “repent” literally means “to change your mind”) of our sins—we turn away from them—and seek Christ by faith.

Jesus offers the gospel of salvation to everyone who is willing to repent and believe (John 3:16). However, Jesus Himself said that not everyone will believe (Matthew 7:13-14; John 3:19). No one likes to think that a loving and gracious God would send people to hell, but that is exactly what the Bible teaches. In the clearest teaching Jesus gave regarding the final judgment, He says that at the end the Son of Man will separate all the nations as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep (representing those who through faith in Jesus Christ have salvation secured) will go into the kingdom with Jesus. The goats (representing those who have rejected the salvation that Jesus offers) will go into hell, which is described as eternal fire (Matthew 25:31-46).

This teaching offends many, so instead of conforming their thinking to the clear teaching of the word of God, they change what God’s word says on the matter and spread this false teaching to the masses. The gospel of inclusion is a clear example of this.

Here are some additional arguments against the gospel of inclusion:

(1) If faith and repentance are not required to receive the gift of salvation, then why is the New Testament littered with calls to repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ?

(2) If salvation doesn’t require faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, then why did Jesus submit to such a humiliating and excruciatingly painful death? God could have just granted everyone a “divine pardon.”

(3) If everyone is going to go to heaven whether they realize it or not, then what about free will? Is the hard-core atheist who has spent his life rejecting God, the Bible, Jesus, and Christianity going to be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming against his will? To believe this tenet of the gospel of inclusion seems to indicate that heaven will be filled with people who don’t necessarily want to be there.

(4) How can all people go to heaven regardless of religious affiliation if there are many religions which hold to contradictory claims? For example, what about people who believe completely different things about the after-life such as reincarnation or annihilationism (i.e., the idea that at death we are snuffed out of existence)?

(5) Finally, if those who openly reject the grace of God don’t go to heaven, then it’s hardly a gospel of inclusion, is it? Either all people go to heaven, or do not call it the gospel of inclusion; because it still excludes some.

The apostle Paul called the message of the gospel the “fragrance of death” (2 Corinthians 2:16). What he meant by this is that to many the message of the gospel is offensive. It tells people the truth about their sin and hopeless state without Christ. It tells people that there is nothing they can do to bridge the gap between themselves and God. For centuries, there have been those (many with good intentions) who have attempted to soften the message of the gospel to get more people into church. On the surface, that seems like the wise thing to do, but in the end all it does is give people a false sense of security. It was the apostle Paul who said that anyone who preached a different gospel than the one he preached should be cursed (Galatians 1:8). That is strong language, but once you realize how vitally important the message of the gospel is, you also realize how vitally important it is to get it right. A false gospel doesn’t save anyone. All it does is condemn more people to hell and generate greater condemnation for those who purvey such falsehoods - such as the gospel of inclusion.


----------



## hvp05

camily said:


> The gospel of inclusion is simply the old heresy of universalism re-packaged and given a new name.


That was great.   

But, as he said a couple days back:





> Well speaking practically and politically then too much info just confuses people.


So all of that will, no doubt, bounce right off.


----------



## camily

hvp05 said:


> That was great.
> 
> But, as he said a couple days back:So all of that will, no doubt, bounce right off.



I know.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



camily said:


> I know.


 Camily - you are one of my favorite posters on this board,

and you have the hotest avatar of them all.

The Bishop Carlton Pearson only has similar beliefs of my own as I go much farther and deeper into the truths of the scriptures then he.

I would never serve a tyrant God that tortures his enemies link HERE and so I do not.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> The Bishop Carlton Pearson only has similar beliefs of my own as *I go much farther and deeper into the truths of the scriptures* then he.


Where do you find the time?

Oh yeah, you dishonestly and dishonorably live off of the government (me and the rest of the taxpayers), and you needn't worry about being there for your family, so what else do you have to do?

BTW, before you ask, yes I do have an opinion on your "beliefs" here, but they've been so thoroughly refuted that it would be pointless to add any more to the pile stacked against you.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> I would never serve a tyrant God that tortures his enemies link HERE and so I do not.


So you choose to serve a god (Notice lower case g, because your god is not the God of the Bible) of your own making.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> So you choose to serve a god (Notice lower case g, because your god is not the God of the Bible) of your own making.


 The command to love thy enemies link HERE is not one of my ideas.

I use to agree with Christians to burn the sinners in Hell but I was shown to be wrong and that we are to hate the sin but not the sinners.

The whole point of the cross was to take away the penalty for sinning.

Jesus paid the price in full - for everybody, and I did not make that up.


----------



## ~mellabella~

*I can't believe I'm back on this thread.*

JPC, 

No, you didn't make that part up. BUT. Do you really believe you should be saved when you have done nothing to deserve God's forgiveness? Us humans will never reach perfection here on this earth. However, that does not give us license to live like the devil during the week and then suddenly turn holy on Sunday. God doesn't work that way. You need a personal relationship with Him, and its something that we as Christians have to work at everyday. Pleasing him. Its not something we can use only when convienent-ie, your so called Gospel of Inclusion. Don't use God as your corner 7-11. Show some respect for His word, and stop *slandering* Him by calling him unmerciful.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> JPC,
> 
> Do you really believe you should be saved when you have done nothing to deserve God's forgiveness?


 It is called un-conditional love.





			
				~mellabella~ said:
			
		

> Show some respect for His word, and stop *slandering* Him by calling him unmerciful.


 Fact is that I am the one calling God very VERY merciful indeed.

It is others that declare God and Jesus as being unmerciful to sinners.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> It is others that declare God and Jesus as being unmerciful to sinners.



links?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> It is others that declare God and Jesus as being unmerciful to sinners.





~mellabella~ said:


> links?


 Anyone that preaches people being tortured in Hell is saying God and Jesus lack mercy.

Link one HERE.

Link two HERE.

It can not be sustained to claim that burning people in Hell is some how merciful because it is not.


----------



## ~mellabella~

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)



..."For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



~mellabella~ said:


> "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)


 It is okay by me if you continue to hold onto that belief of Hell,

but I made the thread for anyone that wants more.

That text you give link HERE says that those who believe *"has everlasting life"* and so how can one burn in Hell unless those that do not believe had *everlasting life* too?

That contradiction does not add up.

The fact is that those that believe now receive great blessings now in this life, but on Judgement Day then everyone will be believers because then everyone will bow and confess.

The Hell concept says everyone already has eternal life in Heaven or in Hell, but that text of yours says only believers have eternal life and non believers do not.

The contradiction is in the untruth that some how God would let anyone slip through without being saved.

God does not even allow for one lost sheep - not even one.





			
				~mellabella~ said:
			
		

> ..."For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)


 That means people do nothing to earn it - saved is a "gift" and not a choice.

Those that chose it are "boasting" here now that they chose God by there work of choosing and it is wrong link HERE.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> It is okay by me if you continue to hold onto that belief of Hell,
> 
> but I made the thread for anyone that wants more.
> 
> That text you give link HERE says that those who believe *"has everlasting life"* and so how can one burn in Hell unless those that do not believe had *everlasting life* too?
> 
> That contradiction does not add up.
> 
> The fact is that those that believe now receive great blessings now in this life, but on Judgement Day then everyone will be believers because then everyone will bow and confess.
> 
> The Hell concept says everyone already has eternal life in Heaven or in Hell, but that text of yours says only believers have eternal life and non believers do not.
> 
> The contradiction is in the untruth that some how God would let anyone slip through without being saved.
> 
> God does not even allow for one lost sheep - not even one. That means people do nothing to earn it - saved is a "gift" and not a choice.
> 
> Those that chose it are "boasting" here now that they chose God by there work of choosing and it is wrong link HERE.



You are proclaiming a lie as truth. If anyone is led astray by that lie, God may hold you accountable.

It is you that is wrong. The Bible is not false. Your are a teller of falsehoods.

You have to accept a gift. You have to claim a prize. It is not yours until you ask for it.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> The Bible is not false. Your are a teller of falsehoods.


 See in my post I gave correct quotes from the Bible,

and I gave correct links to the Bible texts.

That 2A is playing the role of accuser.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> If we (or one) commit any sin now then we reap what we sow now in this present time.
> 
> If one  does "lie, cheat, blaspheme God, murder", etc., then they will pay any penalty ourself now as we live in this present world and not after death.
> 
> If one steals then they live as a thief, or perhaps goes to jail, same with murder or any sin then the person lives here as a murderer and maybe life in jail or executed by the law but not torture for all eternity after they die.



Really?  How do you explain people like Michael Newdow (and all other atheists)?  How are they paying for their complete loathing for God is this current life?  We’re not just talking about breaking the law and going to jail for it.  We are talking about sinning against God and the penalty for not asking, through Jesus, forgiveness.  You are thinking on a different plane than me.  You are thinking about the consequences we, man, places on each other for breaking the law; I am talking about God’s judgment on us for not accepting his plan for salvation.



JPC sr said:


> The ten commandments and all of Jesus teachings ALL tell us how to live now because now is what matters and not after death because after death is all taken care of by Jesus sacrifice.



But, as you have already said this doesn’t matter, we are saved anyway.  So accepting the Commandments and Jesus’ teachings or how we live has no meaning in your world, whether it’s here and now or “after death”.  And that’s where you have it wrong… in God’s terms our goal should be to live for God’s eternal gift, not the here and now.  We don’t do things here and now so we wont suffer here and now; we do here and now so we will be accepted in God’s kingdom.  The first step in that is accepting Christ.



JPC sr said:


> Consider Adolf Hitler as he must be in Hell now some 62 years in torment and torture with the loving Christ looking on if the Orthodox "Hell" were true, and claiming we do not know who is in Hell is a big cop-out because if Hitler is not burning then the rest of us certainly do not compare to him so that if Hitler is not burning then we sure have nothing to worry about.



I don’t even know what you’re saying here.  None of us know what Hitler’s demise is as this can only be decided by God.



JPC sr said:


> I say the "Hell" is not a correct interpretation and that Jesus would never do that to anyone, and Jesus said to love our enemies link HERE because our Father in Heaven does that.
> 
> If Adolf Hitler (or anyone else) is burning in Hell then that God would be a tyrant and a monster and a hypocrite.



No, Jesus wouldn’t  The role of Jesus is to reach to all of us and for us to accept Him for salvation.  It is God’s role to judge.  Actually God is a tyrant and a dictator, up to a point.  He has a set of rules that are set in stone.  HE made the rules, not you.  HE decides who gets in to heaven and who goes to hell.  HE has the final say.  This is HIS creation and HE gets to decide.  You are part of that creation, but you don’t like the rules He has set.  So you are setting your own.  God will not allow for that.  Yes, he is a dictator from that standpoint.  Where he’s not a dictator is YOU get to decide.  Sounds like you have decided.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> See in my post I gave correct quotes from the Bible,
> 
> and I gave correct links to the Bible texts.
> 
> That 2A is playing the role of accuser.



And you are playing the role of tool of satan.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Really?  How do you explain people like Michael Newdow (and all other atheists)?  How are they paying for their complete loathing for God is this current life?


 The man you referenced is said to be an "athiest" and he belong to a "Universal Life Church" and he is Jewish, link HERE so like him - I find that most people that claim to be "athiest" are really just preaching against the beligerant people of Christian Orthodoxy. 

But even if one were truely "athiest" and truely have no God then they are the ones that are depriving themselves of the greatest blessings in this whole world.

They are lost, and that is their biggest payment and their biggest punishment in this world. 

I say there is no greater punishment then to live this life without having faith and privledge that only come from the true God.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> But, as you have already said this doesn’t matter, we are saved anyway.  So accepting the Commandments and Jesus’ teachings or how we live has no meaning in your world, whether it’s here and now or “after death”.  And that’s where you have it wrong…


 I never preach that. 

I say the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus are wonderful and it enpowers the believer to move mountains and to be somebody that counts.  

To disobey the commands and the principles will destroy anybody's life fast and immediate.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> in God’s terms our goal should be to live for God’s eternal gift, not the here and now.  We don’t do things here and now so we wont suffer here and now; we do here and now so we will be accepted in God’s kingdom.  The first step in that is accepting Christ.


 If one follows Christ for the reasons above then their motivations are wrong and their efforts are vain.

We must do right because it is right and not for any reward.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> I don’t even know what you’re saying here.  None of us know what Hitler’s demise is as this can only be decided by God.


We do know that Hitler killed his wife and himself and ordered his body burned and did not order a surrender for the war to end, so Hitler did not get saved between the pulling his trigger and the bullet killing him.

Therefore if Hitler is not in Hell then no of us that only curse, sin, adultery, lie, are all little nothings compared to Hitler.

So if Hitler is not burning in Hell now 62 years then there is no reason to believe anybody is burning in Hell.

In fact that makes Hell into a fraud.

And even if we deny Hitler being there, then is there evil angels burning and being tortured in Hell by your version of our loving God.

I say that even if angels or demons are being tortured then you serve an unmerciful monster as your God.

My God from the Bible loves His enemies, link HERE. 

Jesus never preached torturing people in any way.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> We must do right because it is right and not for any reward.We do know that Hitler killed his wife and himself and ordered his body burned and did not order a surrender for the war to end, so Hitler did not get saved between the pulling his trigger and the bullet killing him.
> 
> Therefore if Hitler is not in Hell then no of us that only curse, sin, adultery, lie, are all little nothings compared to Hitler.
> 
> So if Hitler is not burning in Hell now 62 years then there is no reason to believe anybody is burning in Hell.
> 
> In fact that makes Hell into a fraud.
> 
> And even if we deny Hitler being there, then is there evil angels burning and being tortured in Hell by your version of our loving God.
> 
> I say that even if angels or demons are being tortured then you serve an unmerciful monster as your God.
> 
> My God from the Bible loves His enemies, link HERE.
> 
> Jesus never preached torturing people in any way.



There are no distinctions between sins. One sin is as bad as another. And all sin is deserving of the same consequence - death - separation for eternity from God - casting into the lake of fire.

According to scripture, Hilter is in the grave now and if judged bu Jesus to the lake of fire at the resurrection. Those that die in this life that are already saved do not wait in the grave but go directly to heaven.

All you have to do is read the Bible JPC.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> We do know that Hitler killed his wife and himself and ordered his body burned and did not order a surrender for the war to end, so Hitler did not get saved between the pulling his trigger and the bullet killing him.
> 
> Therefore if Hitler is not in Hell then no of us that only curse, sin, adultery, lie, are all little nothings compared to Hitler.
> 
> So if Hitler is not burning in Hell now 62 years then there is no reason to believe anybody is burning in Hell.
> 
> In fact that makes Hell into a fraud.
> 
> And even if we deny Hitler being there, then is there evil angels burning and being tortured in Hell by your version of our loving God.
> 
> I say that even if angels or demons are being tortured then you serve an unmerciful monster as your God.
> 
> My God from the Bible loves His enemies, link HERE.
> 
> Jesus never preached torturing people in any way.



You don’t seem to recognize that there is a place where those that are not saved go after the second death.  You want to refer to hell as this place where people go to get cleansed, the bible says differently.  There is a hell called the grave where God calls up everyone to be judge and “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Rev 20:15)”; that same pool of fire where “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:10)”.  The condition for being the book of life was mandated when Christ said: “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18)”.  All of these verses you have conveniently ignored for your own convenient purposes.

Do you know what condemned means JPC?  It does not mean saved.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> You don’t seem to recognize that there is a place where those that are not saved go after the second death.  You want to refer to hell as this place where people go to get cleansed, the bible says differently.  There is a hell called the grave where God calls up everyone to be judge and “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Rev 20:15)”; that same pool of fire where “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:10)”.  The condition for being the book of life was mandated when Christ said: “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18)”.  All of these verses you have conveniently ignored for your own convenient purposes.
> 
> Do you know what condemned means JPC?  It does not mean saved.


 We must use the symbols in the book of Revelations in context with the direct words of Jesus Christ link HERE.

The Book of Revelations is harder to understand but the words of Jesus in the Gosples are not so difficult.

The "second death" is where those resurrected persons "die to sin" link HERE.

The "pool of fire" is a fire that cleans and purifies (not torture) link HERE God's "ministers are a flame of fire", 

and like Moses and the burning bush that God called "holy ground" link HERE.

The Devil and false prophet are tormented day and night because the children of God all won and not by torture.

And "condemned" in John 3:18 says they are condemned "*already*" and that means now already in this present world and not condemned after death. 

And see in verse 19 it actually tells us what "condemned" means to Christ link HERE.

It means those people are lost in darkness and not being tortured by our loving Father God.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> We must use the symbols in the book of Revelations in context with the direct words of Jesus Christ



The command to love each other is for us.  We already know God loves us because of his place for our salvation.  But God does not want anyone in his Kingdom that does not abide by his command to accept Christ.



JPC sr said:


> The Book of Revelations is harder to understand but the words of Jesus in the Gosples are not so difficult.



And sorry to be so rude but you exemplify this inability to understand it.  If you understood Jesus’ words you would understand his words in John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, *but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God*.”  This states quite clearly that those that do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are condemned to this pool of fire forever.  You can envision what this pool is like how ever you want.  I don’t claim to know what it is; all I know is it’s a place I don’t want my soul to go.  It’s about the SOUL JPC.  Not the here and now on this earth.



JPC sr said:


> The "second death" is where those resurrected persons "die to sin".
> 
> The "pool of fire" is a fire that cleans and purifies (not torture) God's "ministers are a flame of fire"



This is false.  The Bible refers several times about how those that don’t believe will suffer (or torture as you like to put it):



> I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12)





> The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom 21 all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)





> Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)





> For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.  And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 25:29-30)





> Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!' And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out. (Luke 13:27-28)



And understand that it is not God that is condemning us (or torturing us as you like to put it); it is us that does it to ourselves.  Like the person that murders someone and has to face the death penalty.  It's not the government that putting this guy to death; he did it to himself by rejecting the law.  If we reject God we bring this judgment on ourselves.



JPC sr said:


> And "condemned" in John 3:18 says they are condemned "already" and that means now already in this present world and not condemned after death.



False again.  This means that God ALREADY knows who they are and they stand condemned.



JPC sr said:


> And see in verse 19 it actually tells us what "condemned" means to Christ
> 
> It means those people are lost in darkness and not being tortured by our loving Father God.



This has nothing to do with torture.  It has to do with judgment; judgment only God can impose.  You are applying worldly definitions to things that are spiritual.  If you had read on to verses 20 and 21 you would see there are two types of people, those that chose (IN THEIR HEARTS AND SOULS) to live in the light (Jesus) and adhere to the truth of God are saved (not condemned) and those that continue to do wicked things and refuse the light (Jesus) are condemned.  This light is Jesus as he stated: 

Jesus spoke to them again, saying, *"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (John 8:12)*


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> But God does not want anyone in his Kingdom that does not abide by his command to accept Christ.


 That is a worldly opinion of yours and of others but the Bible says that God gives unconditional love.

That unconditional love means that His enemies do not have any conditions to accept or not to accept because the "gift" of God is "eternal life" and not eternal torture link HERE.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> The Bible refers several times about how those that don’t believe will suffer (or torture as you like to put it):


 The weeping and knashing of teeth does not mean people being burned alive link HERE.

We all do suffer from sin and Christ suffered the most and Jesus paid that penalty completely for everyone.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> We all do suffer from sin and Christ suffered the most and Jesus paid that penalty completely for everyone.


Shortbus, when you discuss these things with people, and virtually everyone disagrees with you, showing you chapter and verse where you are wrong (not their teachings, but chapter and verse), and actual biblical scholars disagree with you (not "church/orthodox" scholars, but biblical scholars), why do you think you're more qualified to interpret what you're reading than EVERYONE else?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Shortbus,


 It has been brought to my attention that some people on this Forum do mis-use this school bus for children shortbus as one of their symbols to degrade others.

So just for the record I tell that I see nothing wrong with the short-bus and I *never ever* mean anything dirty or hateful when I use it, as other do.

I am not one of that group, thank God.





			
				This_person said:
			
		

> when you discuss these things with people, and virtually everyone disagrees with you, showing you chapter and verse where you are wrong (not their teachings, but chapter and verse), and actual biblical scholars disagree with you (not "church/orthodox" scholars, but biblical scholars), why do you think you're more qualified to interpret what you're reading than EVERYONE else?


 "Everyone" does not disagree with me as the very first post on this thread shows a Bishop and his entire Church group agrees with me on this one point that everybody does get saved as in the Gospel of Inclusion.

Plus I am the one that has given the Bible text and links to prove it correct.

And when I am right as this time - then it matters not if "everyone" else were wrong.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> That is a worldly opinion of yours and of others but the Bible says that God gives unconditional love.
> 
> That unconditional love means that His enemies do not have any conditions to accept or not to accept because the "gift" of God is "eternal life" and not eternal torture link HERE.



You gave us a verse that proves my point and disproves yours.  The gift of God is THROUGH CHRIST JESUS.  So there are conditions; but not to His love, but to his salvation.  I would like you to show me where it says that there are no conditions in obtaining salvation.  And because someone decides to condemn themselves to eternal damnation by rejecting God doesn’t mean God doesn’t love that person.  God still loves them and is reaching out to them.  It is us (man) that places conditions on our love for God.  So because someone is condemned to the lake of fire does not mean God didn’t love them; it is because they didn’t love God.



JPC sr said:


> The weeping and knashing of teeth does not mean people being burned alive.



First of all, you seem to not be able to separate the difference between what God commands us to do on this earth and the judgment God will impose on us in the last days.  The verse you provided refers to how He commands us to treat each other on this earth.  It does not apply to God’s judgment and your twisting this in to a love/hate comparison.  

But…  You believe they are gleefully swimming in the lake fire?  This weeping is weeping for joy and the ‘G’NASHING of teeth is just one big tooth-shining grin?  No!  It means they are suffering.  None of us can understand what this suffering truly is since we have not been there.  I can only deduce from The Word that it is a place of complete suffering and pain and anguish; a place I don’t want to go.



JPC sr said:


> We all do suffer from sin and Christ suffered the most and Jesus paid that penalty completely for everyone.



You are right here.  We do suffer from our sins.  Then, those that who don’t accept Christ will suffer the ultimate price in hell.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Then, those that who don’t accept Christ will suffer the ultimate price in hell.


 It is okay by me if you believe different then I believe and I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else to my way.

My point of telling this is because I believe there are people out there that want to know more and so I feel I must make it known.

I have been reading some Freud book called "The future of Illusion" link HERE and he says the population needs those kind of beliefs to tolerate the injustices of this world.

That even implies that my not having that belief might be why I push and make demands for justice in the here and now.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> It is okay by me if you believe different then I believe and I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else to my way.
> 
> My point of telling this is because I believe there are people out there that want to know more and so I feel I must make it known.
> 
> I have been reading some Freud book called "The future of Illusion" link HERE and he says the population needs those kind of beliefs to tolerate the injustices of this world.
> 
> That even implies that my not having that belief might be why I push and make demands for justice in the here and now.



You're an idiot.


----------



## hvp05

JPC sr said:


> Plus I am the one that has given the Bible text and links to prove it correct.


You have repeatedly used the same 3 or 4 quotes, whereas PsyOps [and others] has used multiple different quotes.  In his post you were referencing above, he provided 6 quotes - all of which you conveniently ignored and kept right on  .  So obviously, providing or reading pertinent quotes means nothing to you.




JPC sr said:


> It is okay by me if you believe different then I believe and I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else to my way.


That would require the precondition that a given person be a sociopath, which despite your call of, "The need is now for more sociopaths and not less," we have not seen swarms of people running to join you - thankfully.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I have been reading some Freud book called "The future of Illusion" link HERE and he says the population needs those kind of beliefs to tolerate the injustices of this world.



Funny you picked Freud; this explains a lot.  "The Future of an Illusion" is Freud's attempt (in part) to explain why humans resort to religion and such belief is an illusion, rather than religion being an actual act of faith in a real God.  It was an attempt to dispel the reality of a real God and promote the fact that religion is nothing more than a fabricated part of our psyche as an explanation for a nature that is mostly a traumatic experience and as a fabricated explanation of the conflicts between nature and culture.  Freud believed God is nothing more than a human invention.



JPC sr said:


> That even implies that my not having that belief might be why I push and make demands for justice in the here and now.



I see nothing wrong in demanding justice.  Even God demands that.  Justice has to serve the greater man and not be simplified down to any specific individual.  Justice isn't something applied to make YOUR life easier.  Justice is to provide a protection to the masses.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> "Everyone" does not disagree with me as the very first post on this thread shows a Bishop and his entire Church group agrees with me on this one point that everybody does get saved as in the Gospel of Inclusion.


That's why I said "virtually everyone", not everyone.  Obviously there can be more than one wrong person, but that doesn't stop them from being wrong





> Plus I am the one that has given the Bible text and links to prove it correct.


And, you've been shown verse after verse after verse after verse after verse after verse to show you are wrong, and that you're taking the quotes that "prove" you correct out of context and thus improperly interpretting them.

Why do you not see that?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Funny you picked Freud; this explains a lot.  "The Future of an Illusion" is Freud's attempt (in part) to explain why humans resort to religion and such belief is an illusion, rather than religion being an actual act of faith in a real God.  It was an attempt to dispel the reality of a real God and promote the fact that religion is nothing more than a fabricated part of our psyche as an explanation for a nature that is mostly a traumatic experience and as a fabricated explanation of the conflicts between nature and culture.  Freud believed God is nothing more than a human invention.


 That one part of the book was okay but after I read the rest of that book it is like you say and Freud is a fraud.

He started off with sound sensible words then turned it into crud.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> I see nothing wrong in demanding justice.  Even God demands that.  Justice has to serve the greater man and not be simplified down to any specific individual.  Justice isn't something applied to make YOUR life easier.  Justice is to provide a protection to the masses.


 Our US Constitution is based on individual rights (justice) and to protect the minority (of even one) from the unjust demands of the majority. 

Providing justice to the masses over the individual is what oppression and tyranny are based on.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Why do you not see that?


 Because I am right and everybody else is wrong.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> Because I am right and everybody else is wrong.


to quote your words from the other thread...

"God is the boss and not some puny choice of any individual."


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



fredcaudle said:


> to quote your words from the other thread...
> 
> "God is the boss and not some puny choice of any individual."


 I am not refering to a "choice".

I am talking about being correct in doctrine.

If everybody (or the majority) believe that people are burning in Hell and there is no such place (which there is not) then the majority are wrong.

This is not a matter for majority vote. 

We can not vote for the existance of Hell or not, and we can not choose Hell or Heaven or not.

If I were the ONLY ONE that knew Hell was a fraud then it would still be a fraud even when no one else believed it.

Nobody gets to choose if they will be resurrected or not, no choice about going to Judgement Day or not, and no choice about punishment or not. 

The great plan for humanity is already made and settled and we are moving right along.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


>


Maybe the better way for you to word it is this is the Jimmy religion, not a Christian, Islamic, Judaic, or any other version of accepted religions.  You're not trying to tell us what the established concepts of our religion are, just what YOUR religion is.

That would make sense, and make it palatable.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Maybe the better way for you to word it is this is the Jimmy religion, not a Christian, Islamic, Judaic, or any other version of accepted religions.  You're not trying to tell us what the established concepts of our religion are, just what YOUR religion is.
> 
> That would make sense, and make it palatable.


 That works for me.

It is a representation of my personal relationship with God. 

I am testifying about my religion.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> That works for me.
> 
> It is a representation of my personal relationship with God.
> 
> I am testifying about my religion.


Please state you are not speaking for Christianity nor any other view, just your view.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Please state you are not speaking for Christianity nor any other view, just your view.


 Since I am a Christian then I speak as a Christian.

I would say that everybody here speaks only for themself too.

If I go to a Church then that Pastor might speak for the Church but not for each individual.

The Pope is said to speak for all Catholics.

Even President Bush does not speak for all Americans.

So I speak for Islam as an Islamic, and Christian as a Christian, Buddhist as Buddhist, and etc.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Since I am a Christian then I speak as a Christian.
> 
> I would say that everybody here speaks only for themself too.
> 
> If I go to a Church then that Pastor might speak for the Church but not for each individual.
> 
> The Pope is said to speak for all Catholics.
> 
> Even President Bush does not speak for all Americans.
> 
> So I speak for Islam as an Islamic, and Christian as a Christian, Buddhist as Buddhist, and etc.


So, you are saying you are a Christian, a Buddhist, a Muslim, etc., etc.  Thus, you are speaking _the religion of Jimmy P. Cusick_, not any of these particular religions.

As such, I disagree with you, but respect your right to your opinion.  Should you state that you are speaking the Christian point of view, I will vehemently deny you as wrong.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> So, you are saying you are a Christian, a Buddhist, a Muslim, etc., etc.
> 
> Should you state that you are speaking the Christian point of view, I will vehemently deny you as wrong.


 I do not agree with most  forms of the religions orthodoxies, ie: link HERE.

A few parts and pieces of each religions' orthodoxies have some truths in them added to large parts of nonsense.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I do not agree with most  forms of the religions orthodoxies, ie: link HERE.
> 
> A few parts and pieces of each religions' orthodoxies have some truths in them added to large parts of nonsense.


Very well.  We all have the right to our opinions.  I strongly disagree with yours, but it's yours, and you're not claiming it to be the Christian concept, so have at it.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Very well.  We all have the right to our opinions.  I strongly disagree with yours, but it's yours, and you're not claiming it to be the Christian concept, so have at it.


 What I am saying is that I am giving the correct teachings of Jesus Christ and of the Bible,

which is different then Christian orthodoxy.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> What I am saying is that I am giving the correct teachings of Jesus Christ and of the Bible,
> 
> which is different then Christian orthodoxy.



And I am saying that I stand firm on what I have read in the Holy Bible and all that I have ever been taught and it contadicts your interpretation and everthing you have said.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Our US Constitution is based on individual rights (justice) and to protect the minority (of even one) from the unjust demands of the majority.
> 
> Providing justice to the masses over the individual is what oppression and tyranny are based on.



I thought we were talking about the Bible and God's judgment.  You want to talk about the Constitution now?


----------



## hvp05

PsyOps said:


> I thought we were talking about the Bible and God's judgment.  You want to talk about the Constitution now?


He is an expert on that too, don'tcha know?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> I thought we were talking about the Bible and God's judgment.  You want to talk about the Constitution now?


 That is because justice is an aspect of God and it is a duty of gov.

When you said the Bible permits the individual demands for justice to be subject to the justice of the majority then I say our gov does not agree with that, and neither does the Bible.

If there is even one ( just 1) mean rotten angle or person burning in a painful fire of the Christian Hell then your God has sinned.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> What I am saying is that I am giving the correct teachings of Jesus Christ and of the Bible,
> 
> which is different then Christian orthodoxy.



And we are claiming that the Bible is the word of God and you are full of something but it is not the word of God.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> And we are claiming that the Bible is the word of God


 That is a common and big mistake in Christianity.

Claiming the Bible is the "word of God" as 2A does above and it is NOT.

The Bible itself tells us that Jesus is the "word" link HERE and not the Bible.

Many Christians make that mistake and it turns the Bible itself into a type of idol and then view the Bible in a wrong way.

Claiming it is the "written word of God" is only sugar-coating the error and that is not what 2A is saying above and it is not what Christians claim when they put their hand on the "Holy Bible" either. 

Jesus is the word of God - not the Bible.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> That is because justice is an aspect of God and it is a duty of gov.
> 
> When you said the Bible permits the individual demands for justice to be subject to the justice of the majority then I say our gov does not agree with that, and neither does the Bible.
> 
> If there is even one ( just 1) mean rotten angle or person burning in a painful fire of the Christian Hell then your God has sinned.



Well, I noticed you called Him my God and not your God too.  This says a lot.

We have choices here on this earth.  These choices are based on laws set before us.  We can either choose to obey them or not.  If we chose to disobey the law we face judgment in our courts.  These judgments do not come out of a hatred or lacking of love.  They are simply judgments from disobedience.  Disobedience has consequences here on earth as well as with God.  God has placed a simple rule in front of us: Believe in Christ and be saved; don’t believe in Christ and be condemned to eternal damnation.  The condition is not based in hatred or lacking in love simply because there are consequences to disobeying this simply rule.  In fact the choice is rooted in love.  God loved us enough to give an opportunity to be saved.  The people of Noah’s day weren’t so fortunate.  He simply washed the earth clean and started over.  Are you going to tell me the God that drowned all those people didn’t love back then, but loves now?  The God that drowned so many people back then is the same God that still loves us today to not do that again, but to give us a choice.  ALL OF US!  But there will be a final purging or cleansing.  And, just like we place judgment on each other for disobeying laws and rules, God also places that same judgment on us if we chose to disobey Him.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> That is a common and big mistake in Christianity.
> 
> Claiming the Bible is the "word of God" as 2A does above and it is NOT.
> 
> The Bible itself tells us that Jesus is the "word" link HERE and not the Bible.
> 
> Many Christians make that mistake and it turns the Bible itself into a type of idol and then view the Bible in a wrong way.
> 
> Claiming it is the "written word of God" is only sugar-coating the error and that is not what 2A is saying above and it is not what Christians claim when they put their hand on the "Holy Bible" either.
> 
> Jesus is the word of God - not the Bible.



More education for you JPC… The original text of the New Testament was written in Greek.  The term “Word” means “Logos” or “Will”.  So, a more ENGLISH translation would be “In the beginning was God’s will…”.  It was John’s way of explaining to the people of the day (both Jews and Greeks) that all things came from God’s will, that he all he had to do was think it and speak it and it was so.  John wanted to use a word that had meaning to both factions.  If you read John 14:8-9 Jesus makes it clear that he and God (His Father) are one and the same: “Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?  So, it was John’s purpose to make sure we understand that not only was God in the beginning, but Jesus was too and it was His “Word” or “Will”  that created everything.

When we say the Bible is the word of God, we are not using the same term that John used.  We are simply saying that when we read the Bible we believe the words that are written in that book were inspired by God, thus God’s words, thus the word of God.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Well, I noticed you called Him my God and not your God too.  This says a lot.


 I do say we all have one true God but when you and others mis-represent His character like some mean tyrant that burns people then it appears that is a fake man-made false God and that is why I call it your God.

In reality there is only one with many subordinates.





			
				PsyOps said:
			
		

> We have choices here on this earth.  These choices are based on laws set before us.  We can either choose to obey them or not.  If we chose to disobey the law we face judgment in our courts.  These judgments do not come out of a hatred or lacking of love.  They are simply judgments from disobedience.  Disobedience has consequences here on earth as well as with God.  God has placed a simple rule in front of us: Believe in Christ and be saved; don’t believe in Christ and be condemned to eternal damnation.  The condition is not based in hatred or lacking in love simply because there are consequences to disobeying this simply rule.  In fact the choice is rooted in love.  God loved us enough to give an opportunity to be saved.  The people of Noah’s day weren’t so fortunate.  He simply washed the earth clean and started over.  Are you going to tell me the God that drowned all those people didn’t love back then, but loves now?  The God that drowned so many people back then is the same God that still loves us today to not do that again, but to give us a choice.  ALL OF US!  But there will be a final purging or cleansing.  And, just like we place judgment on each other for disobeying laws and rules, God also places that same judgment on us if we chose to disobey Him.


 God's judgement is far better then mankind's mis-judgement and on Judgement Day everybody gets saved.

The people of Noah's time will be resurrected too and then they too will believe and be saved link HERE.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I do say we all have one true God but when you and others mis-represent His character like some mean tyrant that burns people then it appears that is a fake man-made false God and that is why I call it your God.
> 
> In reality there is only one with many subordinates. God's judgement is far better then mankind's mis-judgement and on Judgement Day everybody gets saved.
> 
> The people of Noah's time will be resurrected too and then they too will believe and be saved link HERE.



Have a nice day JPC.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> I do say we all have one true God but when you and others mis-represent His character like some mean tyrant that burns people then it appears that is a fake man-made false God and that is why I call it your God.
> 
> In reality there is only one with many subordinates. God's judgement is far better then mankind's mis-judgement and on Judgement Day everybody gets saved.
> 
> The people of Noah's time will be resurrected too and then they too will believe and be saved link HERE.



Mark 6:11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



 11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, *It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.*

That is the quote you referenced above, JPC, and it is talking about when God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrha for the sins the people were committing. He is saying in this verse that anyone who will not receive His disciples in His name will suffer more on Judgement Day AKA "the last day" than what Sodom and Gomorrha suffered. There is your proof right there that not everyone is saved.


----------



## PsyOps

godsbutterfly said:


> Mark 6:11 (King James Version)
> King James Version (KJV)
> Public Domain
> 
> 
> 
> 11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, *It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.*
> 
> That is the quote you referenced above, JPC, and it is talking about when God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrha for the sins the people were committing. He is saying in this verse that anyone who will not receive His disciples in His name will suffer more on Judgement Day AKA "the last day" than what Sodom and Gomorrha suffered. There is your proof right there that not everyone is saved.



 What everyone reads.  

What JPC reads --------->


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> Mark 6:11 (King James Version)
> King James Version (KJV)
> Public Domain
> 
> 
> 
> 11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, *It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.*
> 
> That is the quote you referenced above, JPC, and it is talking about when God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrha for the sins the people were committing. He is saying in this verse that anyone who will not receive His disciples in His name will suffer more on Judgement Day AKA "the last day" than what Sodom and Gomorrha suffered. There is your proof right there that not everyone is saved.


 It does not say that at all.

You have turned the whole text around to a completely opposite meaning then what Jesus said.

That verse says that the sinful people of both Sodom and Gomorrah *will be there on the Judgement Day* (not already in Hell) and it will be more tolerable for them, and that itself means a second chance (more tolerable for S & G) and not eternal burning.

I stand by mine as correct and yours is twisted.


----------



## toppick08

JPC sr said:


> It does not say that at all.
> 
> You have turned the whole text around to a completely opposite meaning then what Jesus said.
> 
> That verse says that the sinful people of both Sodom and Gomorrah *will be there on the Judgement Day* (not already in Hell) and it will be more tolerable for them, and that itself means a second chance (more tolerable for S & G) and not eternal burning.
> 
> I stand by mine as correct and yours is twisted.



Rest assured JPC, you ain't got a snowballs chance in HELL to win Chit.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



toppick08 said:


> Rest assured JPC, you ain't got a snowballs chance in HELL to win Xhit.


 It is not necessary to use dirty language here.

Going around the filter for profanity on the religion forun is not a nice thing to do.

It is not a competition where I am not trying to win or to beat anyone.

I try hard to respect other people's beliefs.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I try hard to respect other people's beliefs.


You do?


JPC sr said:


> It does not say that at all.
> I stand by mine as correct and yours is twisted.


  It doesn't seem so.


----------



## toppick08

JPC sr said:


> It is not necessary to use dirty language here.
> 
> Going around the filter for profanity on the religion forun is not a nice thing to do.
> 
> It is not a competition where I am not trying to win or to beat anyone.
> 
> I try hard to respect other people's beliefs.



I apologize to all the nice people logging in to hear(type) you spout your


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> It does not say that at all.
> 
> You have turned the whole text around to a completely opposite meaning then what Jesus said.
> 
> That verse says that the sinful people of both Sodom and Gomorrah *will be there on the Judgement Day* (not already in Hell) and it will be more tolerable for them, and that itself means a second chance (more tolerable for S & G) and not eternal burning.
> 
> I stand by mine as correct and yours is twisted.



Mark 6:11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


*I went to your link and copied and pasted so I twisted nothing.*  Okay, let's break this down shall we?
 "Whosoever does not recieve you...etc." - that refers to the disciples
"Verily *I* say unto you..." "I" refers to Jesus speaking
"It shall be more tolerable to Sodom & Gomorrah in the last day  than for that city"   - Sodom & Gomorrah were already destroyed once by God for the actions of their people. Jesus is not pleased that His disciples are being rejected so he tells them if people reject them just shake off the dust of that place and keep on going and in the last days even Sodom & Gomorrah which is a sin-filled destroyed city will have it better than the place that rejected those who came in the name of Jesus Christ.

And that is the true untwisted version.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> That is a common and big mistake in Christianity.
> 
> Claiming the Bible is the "word of God" as 2A does above and it is NOT.
> 
> The Bible itself tells us that Jesus is the "word" link HERE and not the Bible.
> 
> Many Christians make that mistake and it turns the Bible itself into a type of idol and then view the Bible in a wrong way.
> 
> Claiming it is the "written word of God" is only sugar-coating the error and that is not what 2A is saying above and it is not what Christians claim when they put their hand on the "Holy Bible" either.
> 
> Jesus is the word of God - not the Bible.



You are such a sorry confused person. The difference is Word and word. You really ought to stop trying to explain things of which you obviously have no concept.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I do say we all have one true God but when you and others mis-represent His character like some mean tyrant that burns people then it appears that is a fake man-made false God and that is why I call it your God.
> 
> In reality there is only one with many subordinates. God's judgement is far better then mankind's mis-judgement and on Judgement Day everybody gets saved.
> 
> The people of Noah's time will be resurrected too and then they too will believe and be saved link HERE.




You are the one misrepresenting God's word and plan. My sincere hope is you will be so embarrassed by your total loss in the primary that you will never come post on this site ever again.

Not everyone is saved! Many will join satan in the lake of fire.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> It does not say that at all.
> 
> You have turned the whole text around to a completely opposite meaning then what Jesus said.
> 
> That verse says that the sinful people of both Sodom and Gomorrah *will be there on the Judgement Day* (not already in Hell) and it will be more tolerable for them, and that itself means a second chance (more tolerable for S & G) and not eternal burning.
> 
> I stand by mine as correct and yours is twisted.



You have a twisted mind. Therefore your understanding of anything not conceived in your own mind is twisted. You would not know the Truth if He came up to you in person.

JPC, Please seek mental help. I say this in all seriousness. You really need help.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> It is not necessary to use dirty language here.
> 
> Going around the filter for profanity on the religion forun is not a nice thing to do.
> 
> It is not a competition where I am not trying to win or to beat anyone.
> 
> I try hard to respect other people's beliefs.



No you don't. You totally ignore other people's beliefs. You are totally self centered and others, including family, mean little to nothing to you. What you post affirms that. Your actions affirm that. You idea that deceiving the voters is OK affirms that.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> Mark 6:11 (King James Version)
> King James Version (KJV)
> Public Domain
> 
> 11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
> 
> *I went to your link and copied and pasted so I twisted nothing.*  Okay, let's break this down shall we?
> "Whosoever does not recieve you...etc." - that refers to the disciples
> "Verily *I* say unto you..." "I" refers to Jesus speaking
> "It shall be more tolerable to Sodom & Gomorrah in the last day  than for that city"   - Sodom & Gomorrah were already destroyed once by God for the actions of their people. Jesus is not pleased that His disciples are being rejected so he tells them if people reject them just shake off the dust of that place and keep on going and in the last days even Sodom & Gomorrah which is a sin-filled destroyed city will have it better than the place that rejected those who came in the name of Jesus Christ.
> 
> And that is the true untwisted version.


 What you have posted above is confusing.

The text of Mark 6:11 KJV is link HERE.

It says: "*It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.*"

That means and it SAYS that the people of both Sodom and Gomorrha will be there on the Judgement Day,

as a second chance - because it will be "more tolerable" for them.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> What you have posted above is confusing.
> 
> The text of Mark 6:11 KJV is link HERE.
> 
> It says: "*It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.*"
> 
> That means and it SAYS that the people of both Sodom and Gomorrha will be there on the Judgement Day,
> 
> as a second chance - because it will be "more tolerable" for them.



I sincerely pray that God will open your blinded eyes so you may see reality before it literally smacks you in the face with "IF YOU'RE LIVING LIKE THERE IS NO HELL YOU BETTER BE RIGHT!"


----------



## hvp05

godsbutterfly said:


> I sincerely pray that God will open your blinded eyes so you may see reality


Did you really consider to whom you were writing when you wrote that?  This is a man who says...



JPC sr said:


> What you have posted above is confusing.


... when reading plain English, and...





			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> Everybody is smart enough to understand the Bible.  Just skip any difficult part and go from the beginning to the end.


... when he gets stumped.  The reason he quotes the same handful of verses is because that's all he's read and understood.  (And even his understanding of those few is questionable.)


----------



## toppick08

hvp05 said:


> Did you really consider to whom you were writing when you wrote that?  This is a man who says...
> 
> ... when reading plain English, and...... when he gets stumped.  The reason he quotes the same handful of verses is because that's all he's read and understood.  (And even his understanding of those few is questionable.)



You know, JPC ought to win his election bid. I say this because in true politician form, HE SEEMS TO HAVE AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> I sincerely pray that God will open your blinded eyes so you may see reality before it literally smacks you in the face with "IF YOU'RE LIVING LIKE THERE IS NO HELL YOU BETTER BE RIGHT!"


  I live as though I care about God,

and I do not live in any fear of being tortured in that mystical Hell.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I live as though I care about God,
> 
> and I do not live in any fear of being tortured in that mystical Hell.



Just like you cared about your son. The Bible is very clear about the lake of fire.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC... simply put "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. *No one comes to the Father except through me*.'" (John 14:6)

You defy this basic premise.  By doing do so you promote a false argument.  It answers to Jesus' claim that "Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold.  *But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved*." (Matthew 24:11-13)

In other words, those that do not perservere will NOT be saved.  In other words, some will NOT be saved.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> JPC... simply put "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. *No one comes to the Father except through me*.'" (John 14:6)
> 
> You defy this basic premise.  By doing do so you promote a false argument.  It answers to Jesus' claim that "Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold.  *But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved*." (Matthew 24:11-13)
> 
> In other words, those that do not perservere will NOT be saved.  In other words, some will NOT be saved.


 He is talking about this present world - here and now.

Jesus message can save people now from addictions and from injustices and God gives His followers the ability to move mountains in this world of sin.

When He said such things as feed the hungry or cloth the naked or visit those in jail and etc., then that meant save them now in this life and not after they are dead.

Salvation from sin mean here and now, and not saving from torture in Hell after death because God loves His enemies and after death from this world there will be no more tears and no more pain and suffering.

The truest punishment is to live this world being lost.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> He is talking about this present world - here and now.


What is your basis for this "thought"?





> The truest punishment is to live this world being lost.


Do you say these things just to entertain us?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> What is your basis for this "thought"?


 I gave the answer to that in the post link HERE.

You simply must read pst the first line.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> Because I am right and everybody else is wrong.




 You're an idiot.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



Giantone said:


> You're an idiot.


 *FYI,* even if I were an "idiot" then I would still be right and correct.

Being an "idiot" does not make one wrong or less honorable.

In fact I find that everybody is smart in some areas and ignorant about other things.

It is a normal human condition, so for me - I respect idiots.


----------



## godsbutterfly

Originally Posted by hvp05  
"Did you really consider to whom you were writing when you wrote that? "

Sorry! Momentary lapse of sanity! Seriously, I do believe only a miracle from God could make JPC realize the error in what he believes. And it would have to be a "Road to Damascus" type miracle!


----------



## ~mellabella~

*no....*



Giantone said:


> You're an idiot.



He's not an idiot, nor is he a fool...he is just highly mis-informed.


----------



## This_person

~mellabella~ said:


> He's not an idiot, nor is he a fool...he is just highly mis-informed.


He's been informed, and given example, chapter, verse, and explaination.  He chooses to not see.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> He's been informed, and given example, chapter, verse, and explaination.  He chooses to not see.


 It is a matter of perspective in seeing right verses wrong.

I give one of the most non violent passages in the whole Bible to love thy enemies link HERE, 

and others here declare that means God burns people in fire for all eternity.

So it is true that I choose to see what is right and loving, 

while others want to see violence and crualty being done in the name of Christ and preach that violent message.

It is important for humanity to finally wake up to the fact that our loving Father God does not torture people.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> It is a matter of perspective in seeing right verses wrong.
> 
> I give one of the most non violent passages in the whole Bible to love thy enemies link HERE,
> 
> and others here declare that means God burns people in fire for all eternity.
> 
> So it is true that I choose to see what is right and loving,
> 
> while others want to see violence and crualty being done in the name of Christ and preach that violent message.
> 
> It is important for humanity to finally wake up to the fact that our loving Father God does not torture people.


Shortbus, you've admitted that you pick and choose what you believe in the Bible, and what you don't.  Anything that doesn't fit your warped sense of reality you don't believe:





JPC sr said:


> There are large sections of the Bible that are untrue and some complete books of the Bible are fakes.


Any other discussion regarding your vision is pointless.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Shortbus, [   ]


 It is a sad thing to say but that poster mis-uses the "shortbus" (  ) as his way of saying that children on such a bus are perverted in his perception and I find it disgusting and shameful for him to do such a thing.

When I use or see that symbol then it is never used as some dirty perverted message but that poster does.

He needs to be ashamed but since he is not embarased by his pervertion then I need to expose it and state that I am not perverted as he is.

That person takes name-calling too far and it certainly has nothing to do with the thread subject.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> it certainly has nothing to do with the thread subject.


then drop it and move onto the substantive parts of our posts with regard to the subject at hand.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> It is a sad thing to say but that poster mis-uses the "shortbus" (  ) as his way of saying that children on such a bus are perverted in his perception and I find it disgusting and shameful for him to do such a thing.
> 
> When I use or see that symbol then it is never used as some dirty perverted message but that poster does.
> 
> He needs to be ashamed but since he is not embarased by his pervertion then I need to expose it and state that I am not perverted as he is.
> 
> That person takes name-calling too far and it certainly has nothing to do with the thread subject.


To be argumentative... ThisPerson can't be wrong for using the "bus" in a "perverted" way... according to you we all will be saved, so she has no shame or consequence in this and you need not be bothered in your message for God loves her even as much as you... right?


----------



## camily

fredcaudle said:


> To be argumentative... ThisPerson can't be wrong for using the "bus" in a "perverted" way... according to you we all will be saved, so she has no shame or consequence in this and you need not be bothered in your message for God loves her even as much as you... right?


----------



## toppick08

fredcaudle said:


> To be argumentative... ThisPerson can't be wrong for using the "bus" in a "perverted" way... according to you we all will be saved, so she has no shame or consequence in this and you need not be bothered in your message for God loves her even as much as you... right?



Good 'un...  JPC?


----------



## This_person

Jimmy, you are incapable of understanding that someone who actually was involved on a day to day basis in raising children wouldn't degrade children - because you've never done such a thing as raise a child or be a part of supporting a child for any length of time.  So, knowing your mental limitations, I'll repost my previous statements without the nickname:



This_person said:


> Jimmy, you've admitted that you pick and choose what you believe in the Bible, and what you don't.  Anything that doesn't fit your warped sense of reality you don't believe:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JPC sr said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are large sections of the Bible that are untrue and some complete books of the Bible are fakes.
> 
> 
> 
> Any other discussion regarding your vision is pointless.
Click to expand...


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



fredcaudle said:


> To be argumentative... ThisPerson can't be wrong for using the "bus" in a "perverted" way... according to you we all will be saved, so she has no shame or consequence in this and you need not be bothered in your message for God loves her even as much as you... right?


 Well I will try again to make the point clear,

that the Gospel message is to save people now in this wicked world but not after death.

People like T_p do need saved from pervertion now and not after death, people need saved from ignorance and from injustices now and that was the message that Jesus Christ teaches.

Going to Heaven or Hell *after death* is an utterly meaningless and useless message for saving people from this present sinful world.

Except for that *pretended* "salvation" that draws from the ignorant fear some desired behavior so then the persons are not "deciples of Christ" or "followers of Christ" but prisoners to an untrue fear of being tortured in Hell by their loving Father God and it is not true.

The truth will set people free from ignorance and fear now in this wicked world and that is the powerful message.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



camily said:


>


 I know it is all your fault, and I am glad you did.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> People like T_p do need saved from pervertion now and not after death, people need saved from ignorance and from injustices now and that was the message that Jesus Christ teaches.


Judging me, Jimmy?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> Judging me, Jimmy?


 We all need saved from the wickedness in this sinful world.

Therefore we must judge right from wrong. 

Only the guilty try to avoid judgements while the righteous seek out justice.

We must judge the actions and not the person - hate the sin and not the sinner.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> Well I will try again to make the point clear,
> 
> that the Gospel message is to save people now in this wicked world but not after death.
> 
> People like T_p do need saved from pervertion now and not after death, people need saved from ignorance and from injustices now and that was the message that Jesus Christ teaches.
> 
> Going to Heaven or Hell *after death* is an utterly meaningless and useless message for saving people from this present sinful world.
> 
> Except for that *pretended* "salvation" that draws from the ignorant fear some desired behavior so then the persons are not "deciples of Christ" or "followers of Christ" but prisoners to an untrue fear of being tortured in Hell by their loving Father God and it is not true.
> 
> The truth will set people free from ignorance and fear now in this wicked world and that is the powerful message.


Sorry, you can't have it both ways....  No need to be saved today if I'm already saved "tomorrow".... if it is not wicked enough to be sent to a hell then it obviously is not wicked enough today as we are living.  Just because you don't like the use of the "shortbus" by Tp - doesn't matter.  Your view says Jesus likes it enough to save her in the end you are just a little meaningless speck in mankind's history and Jesus has decided (in your view) to save everybody... who are you to say the world is wicked or injust - you say Jesus is good to go with it all because everybody including Satan gets in at the end!

If there is no consequence in the end there is no consequence today.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> We must judge the actions and not the person - hate the sin and not the sinner.


Is that why you said:





JPC sr said:


> He needs to be ashamed ...he is not embarased by his pervertion ... I need to expose it ... I am not perverted as he is.


Telling me I need to be ashamed, that I am perverted....  That's judging the sin and not the sinner?

That must be from one of the parts of the Bible you think is true, not one you think is untrue, or a complete fake:


JPC sr said:


> There are large sections of the Bible that are untrue and some complete books of the Bible are fakes.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



fredcaudle said:


> Sorry, you can't have it both ways....  No need to be saved today if I'm already saved "tomorrow".... if it is not wicked enough to be sent to a hell then it obviously is not wicked enough today as we are living.  Just because you don't like the use of the "shortbus" by Tp - doesn't matter.  Your view says Jesus likes it enough to save her in the end you are just a little meaningless speck in mankind's history and Jesus has decided (in your view) to save everybody... who are you to say the world is wicked or injust - you say Jesus is good to go with it all because everybody including Satan gets in at the end!
> 
> If there is no consequence in the end there is no consequence today.


 But we have factual believe-your-own-eyes evidence of the sin and suffering in this present world.

We can know that people do need saved from the debaucheries and violences and pain that we each can see and hear and feel in this present world and our own society.

That proof is very obvious and verifiable.

Thereafter our faith in God and the Bible and the after-death / after-life are the product from the here and now.

In the end neither humanity nor our loving Father God would ever accept our enemies being burned for ever and ever.

It is not just that the Christian "Hell" does not exist, but that it can not posibly exist.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> But we have factual believe-your-own-eyes evidence of the sin and suffering in this present world.
> 
> We can know that people do need saved from the debaucheries and violences and pain that we each can see and hear and feel in this present world and our own society.
> 
> That proof is very obvious and verifiable.
> 
> Thereafter our faith in God and the Bible and the after-death / after-life are the product from the here and now.
> 
> In the end neither humanity nor our loving Father God would ever accept our enemies being burned for ever and ever.
> 
> It is not just that the Christian "Hell" does not exist, but that it can not posibly exist.


"We can know that people do need saved from the debaucheries and violences and pain that we each can see and hear and feel in this present world and our own society."

Why?  Live it up today.. tomorrow Jesus will take me regardless of what I said, did, or believe.  Who cares if people are hurting, just wait until eternity where we can hold hands and love each other, right?  (I'm speaking only to what you have written, I would never believe such nonsense.)

You do not know the holiness of God and His Spirit, this is why you are preaching a perverted gospel.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



fredcaudle said:


> "Why?  Live it up today.. tomorrow Jesus will take me regardless of what I said, did, or believe.  Who cares if people are hurting, just wait until eternity where we can hold hands and love each other, right?  (I'm speaking only to what you have written, I would never believe such nonsense.)


 You are free to try that,

and it will back-fire on you as it does to anyone.

And if you or anyone does that then you will reap that as you sow it - here and now.

If the reason you do not do that is because your afraid of Hell then you are already walking dead.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> You are free to try that,
> 
> and it will back-fire on you as it does to anyone.
> 
> And if you or anyone does that then you will reap that as you sow it - here and now.
> 
> If the reason you do not do that is because your afraid of Hell then you are already walking dead.


How will it backfire?  In what tangible way will it backfire, based upon your view of religion?


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> You are free to try that,
> 
> and it will back-fire on you as it does to anyone.
> 
> And if you or anyone does that then you will reap that as you sow it - here and now.
> 
> If the reason you do not do that is because your afraid of Hell then you are already walking dead.


the 'walking dead' are those without Jesus Christ, for the Spirit gives life.

Your argument on hell is mindless...  there are people who are afraid of entering hell and then those truly saved understand the greater fear which includes the meaning respect....

"the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111.10)  You do not fear God (fear literally or respect literally) and so you please your mind to say no hell, for god would be "unjust" "unmerciful" etc.  Like God really cares what you think about Him... He loves you (John 3.16) but will not be changed by or to you.  The verses below are Jesus' own words... your thread here has accused Jesus of lieing and for this you need to repent.  You will say "man" wrote it, or "church doctrine" came up with it... etc.  And you will reap the eternity you preach - and it won't be salvation.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV) "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'   Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


----------



## 2ndAmendment

fredcaudle said:


> "We can know that people do need saved from the debaucheries and violences and pain that we each can see and hear and feel in this present world and our own society."
> 
> Why?  *Live it up today.. tomorrow Jesus will take me regardless of what I said, did, or believe.  Who cares if people are hurting, just wait until eternity where we can hold hands and love each other, right?*  (I'm speaking only to what you have written, I would never believe such nonsense.)
> 
> You do not know the holiness of God and His Spirit, this is why you are preaching a perverted gospel.



That is what the Nicolaitans believed and we know how Jesus feels about their deeds. 





> Revelation 2:5-7
> 
> 5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.
> 
> 6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
> 
> 7'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'


----------



## 2ndAmendment

fredcaudle said:


> ...
> 
> Your argument on hell is mindless... .



Goes with the rest of JPC.


----------



## fredcaudle

2ndAmendment said:


> Goes with the rest of JPC.


amen and amen...


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



fredcaudle said:


> the 'walking dead' are those without Jesus Christ, for the Spirit gives life.


 That was my point.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Your argument on hell is mindless...


 That might have some truth to it because the human mind is wicked and thinks up such violent concepts.

Everybody getting saved is far from anything that I could have thought up without seeing it in the Bible.

It is a matter of faith and rightness and not a human thought.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> there are people who are afraid of entering hell and then those truly saved understand the greater fear which includes the meaning respect....


  Fear and respect are far from being the same thing.

The "fear of God" means like not being afraid of doing a sin like lie, steal, cheat, etc., because we will reap as we sow, and it makes one weaker.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111.10)


 That means like a child fearing a parent and not like fearing a tyrant violent torturer, because then God would be an abuser.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> You do not fear God (fear literally or respect literally) and so you please your mind to say no hell, for god would be "unjust" "unmerciful" etc.


 I am not afraid of God.  

God's truth does not ask for cowardice so I fear His anger but I am not afraid of His sound judgements.

Like I might well get violently punished and tortured by other people but not from our loving Father God.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Like God really cares what you think about Him... He loves you (John 3.16) but will not be changed by or to you.


 Yes, God does care about what you and me and everyone think about Him, and He cares about what we each say and do too. 

The old drunken bum laying in a gutter will one day be a Prince of the most High except the lost soul does not know it, and neither does the people that scorn the guy (or gal).





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> your thread here has accused Jesus of lieing and for this you need to repent.


 I never ever said Jesus lied at any time.

I have only said that Christianity has made mistakes in interpreting the scriptures.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> You will say "man" wrote it, or "church doctrine" came up with it... etc.  And you will reap the eternity you preach - and it won't be salvation.


 The human fear threat of torture (Hell) has no effect on me,

because I know better.





			
				fredcaudle said:
			
		

> Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV) "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'   Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


 Well Judgement Day will not be a complete picnic for everyone as some will need to be cleaned and purified by the lake of fire that save people's souls but even that is an undeserved and an unconditional blessing.

But still, in those passages Jesus is giving a message for now here in this present world because many people are lost now.

The key is "lost" because people are not really evil but just lost in this wicked world.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> That was my point. That might have some truth to it because the human mind is wicked and thinks up such violent concepts.
> 
> Everybody getting saved is far from anything that I could have thought up without seeing it in the Bible.
> 
> It is a matter of faith and rightness and not a human thought.  Fear and respect are far from being the same thing.
> 
> The "fear of God" means like not being afraid of doing a sin like lie, steal, cheat, etc., because we will reap as we sow, and it makes one weaker. That means like a child fearing a parent and not like fearing a tyrant violent torturer, because then God would be an abuser. I am not afraid of God.
> 
> God's truth does not ask for cowardice so I fear His anger but I am not afraid of His sound judgements.
> 
> Like I might well get violently punished and tortured by other people but not from our loving Father God. Yes, God does care about what you and me and everyone think about Him, and He cares about what we each say and do too.
> 
> The old drunken bum laying in a gutter will one day be a Prince of the most High except the lost soul does not know it, and neither does the people that scorn the guy (or gal). I never ever said Jesus lied at any time.
> 
> I have only said that Christianity has made mistakes in interpreting the scriptures. The human fear threat of torture (Hell) has no effect on me,
> 
> because I know better. Well Judgement Day will not be a complete picnic for everyone as some will need to be cleaned and purified by the lake of fire that save people's souls but even that is an undeserved and an unconditional blessing.
> 
> But still, in those passages Jesus is giving a message for now here in this present world because many people are lost now.
> 
> The key is "lost" because people are not really evil but just lost in this wicked world.


The verses below are Jesus' own words... your thread here has accused Jesus of lieing and for this you need to repent. You will say "man" wrote it, or "church doctrine" came up with it... etc. And you will reap the eternity you preach - and it won't be salvation.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


----------



## This_person

fredcaudle said:


> The verses below are Jesus' own words... your thread here has accused Jesus of lieing and for this you need to repent. You will say "man" wrote it, or "church doctrine" came up with it... etc. And you will reap the eternity you preach - and it won't be salvation.
> 
> "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


Once again, Fred, Jimmy is better than the Bible - he knows where it's right, and where it's wrong:





JPC sr said:


> There are large sections of the Bible that are untrue and some complete books of the Bible are fakes.  ... persons put their shallow faith in the Bible and not in God. ... God is not in the Bible. ... I find it incredibly strengthening to see that the fake parts reveal the truth more precisely.


----------



## fredcaudle

This_person said:


> Once again, Fred, Jimmy is better than the Bible - he knows where it's right, and where it's wrong:


I know... I was just sitting here praying that he would look into matters rather than being hard hearted.

We make significant and incredible choices today because we don't have to face "tomorrow" in our minds.  Only we will face "tomorrow" and be held accountable to everything we thought and did in life.  And people are constantly trying to escape this truth.

Keep encouraged...


----------



## This_person

fredcaudle said:


> I know... I was just sitting here praying that he would look into matters rather than being hard hearted.
> 
> We make significant and incredible choices today because we don't have to face "tomorrow" in our minds.  Only we will face "tomorrow" and be held accountable to everything we thought and did in life.  And people are constantly trying to escape this truth.
> 
> Keep encouraged...


It seems as though Jimmy has a lot of truth to escape, and he has.  I fear his mental escape is a permanent condition.  The way I personally believe in God, He will care for Jimmy as He would a child, or any other adled adult.  Something snapped in Jimmy - whether it was the drugs, the alcohol, or just a weak mental capacity.  I think it's called cognitive dissonance, but I'm not sure by any means.  I actually pity him, but he makes it very hard to do so kindly.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



fredcaudle said:


> The verses below are Jesus' own words... your thread here has accused Jesus of lieing and for this you need to repent. You will say "man" wrote it, or "church doctrine" came up with it... etc. And you will reap the eternity you preach - and it won't be salvation.
> 
> "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


 He is talking about those that claim to be followers of His (Jesus Christ) and are not.

But none of that says the people will then be tortured and burned in a Hell.

The problem I see you making is that Jesus is not the Father God and so Jesus plainly tells us what the Father God does to His enemies link it HERE.

Human beings want to torture and burn others in their mystical Hell but our Father God has plainly said He will love His enemies and that is that.

Jesus is the way to the Father - so if one only makes it to Jesus then you have not made it all the way to the top.

The Father God is in charge and Jesus will do as He is told link HERE.


----------



## fredcaudle

JPC sr said:


> He is talking about those that claim to be followers of His (Jesus Christ) and are not.
> 
> But none of that says the people will then be tortured and burned in a Hell.
> 
> The problem I see you making is that Jesus is not the Father God and so Jesus plainly tells us what the Father God does to His enemies link it HERE.
> 
> Human beings want to torture and burn others in their mystical Hell but our Father God has plainly said He will love His enemies and that is that.
> 
> Jesus is the way to the Father - so if one only makes it to Jesus then you have not made it all the way to the top.
> 
> The Father God is in charge and Jesus will do as He is told link HERE.


Oh well, you can't say you didn't have chances to repent and accept the Gospel.

Reply back with your foolishness... I'm moving on.  This whole thread is man's foolishness trying to reach God by changing the gospel so that everyone can do their own thing - even JPC


----------



## 2ndAmendment

fredcaudle said:


> Oh well, you can't say you didn't have chances to repent and accept the Gospel.
> 
> Reply back with your foolishness... I'm moving on.  This whole thread is man's foolishness trying to reach God by changing the gospel so that everyone can do their own thing - even JPC



I suggested a long time ago that everyone totally ignore JPC. Don't reply to him at all in the hope that he will just go away. Very little he says has any merit; most is just his stupidity expressed. It is hard to ignore such stupidity, I know. And when his lies may deceive someone, then it is appropriate to tell them JPC is a liar and does not believe the Bible and leave it at that.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> I suggested a long time ago that everyone totally ignore JPC. Don't reply to him at all in the hope that he will just go away. Very little he says has any merit; most is just his stupidity expressed. It is hard to ignore such stupidity, I know. And when his lies may deceive someone, then it is appropriate to tell them JPC is a liar and does not believe the Bible and leave it at that.


 That works for me.

We can all have separate beliefs and I only speak out for those that might want more.

Cheers.


----------



## PsyOps

2ndAmendment said:


> I suggested a long time ago that everyone totally ignore JPC. Don't reply to him at all in the hope that he will just go away. Very little he says has any merit; most is just his stupidity expressed. It is hard to ignore such stupidity, I know. And when his lies may deceive someone, then it is appropriate to tell them JPC is a liar and does not believe the Bible and leave it at that.



I rather think of him like burning popcorn.  Taking out of the microwave stops the burning, but doesn't get rid of the smell.  Ignoring him stops the burning, but we are still left with that annoying smell.  You can try to ignore it but it's still there.  Maybe there is no good solution for some things.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> That works for me.
> 
> We can all have separate beliefs and I only speak out for those that might want more.
> 
> Cheers.



Because I have to change my kid's diaper doesn't mean I want more of it.  But I know I'm going to get it.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Because I have to change my kid's diaper doesn't mean I want more of it.  But I know I'm going to get it.


 I see this as one of our big differences in that I respect the beliefs of others and you do not.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I see this as one of our big differences in that I respect the beliefs of others and you do not.


This beligerant, arrogant, foolish, (what else have you called me lately?), fraudulant, child degrading, hypocritical heckler (that's enough for now, I think) disagrees with your claim that you respect the belief of others.  I have first hand knowledge of you calling names, threatening, and otherwise belittling anyone who disagrees with you.

Try again, son.

Oh, I forgot, I'm also a 





JPC sr said:


> #$%^&
> 
> DUH.


and that's a direct quote.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> This beligerant, arrogant, foolish, (what else have you called me lately?), fraudulant, child degrading, hypocritical heckler (that's enough for now, I think) disagrees with your claim that you respect the belief of others.  I have first hand knowledge of you calling names, threatening, and otherwise belittling anyone who disagrees with you.
> 
> Try again, son.
> 
> Oh, I forgot, I'm also a and that's a direct quote.


 For me - respecting "PsyOps" beliefs does NOT include respecting T_p's improper actions.

You are trying to include yourself into a comment that did not include your actions.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> For me - respecting "PsyOps" beliefs does NOT include respecting T_p's.
> You are trying to include yourself into a comment that did not include you.





JPC sr said:


> I see this as one of our big differences in that *I respect the beliefs of others* and you do not.


I thought you meant you respected others, not just some others.

Sorry.  Now I understand you only respect some, not all others' beliefs.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> I thought you meant you respected others, not just some others.
> 
> Sorry.  Now I understand you only respect some, not all others' beliefs.


 To clarify again,

I respect everyone's beliefs but I do not respect wrongful actions.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I see this as one of our big differences in that I respect the beliefs of others and you do not.



I respect the truth.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> I respect the truth.


 Well I bet that takes little effort.

And the "truth" always agrees with your own beliefs - with few small exceptions.

Of course that is not what Jesus Christ taught link HERE.

This is why it is correct to give our regard to ACTIONS and not to beliefs.

The "Good Samaritan" link HERE was one that had different beliefs (the un-truth) while the Priest and the Levite that had the "truth" yet  had the incorrect actions.

Like hate the sin and not the sinner - Jesus is saying to love doing right and hate doing wrong.

The action speak louder then the words (beliefs).


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Well I bet that takes little effort.
> 
> And the "truth" always agrees with your own beliefs - with few small exceptions.
> 
> Of course that is not what Jesus Christ taught link HERE.
> 
> This is why it is correct to give our regard to ACTIONS and not to beliefs.
> 
> The "Good Samaritan" link HERE was one that had different beliefs (the un-truth) while the Priest and the Levite that had the "truth" yet  had the incorrect actions.
> 
> Like hate the sin and not the sinner - Jesus is saying to love doing right and hate doing wrong.
> 
> The action speak louder then the words (beliefs).


And that's the truth!



Well, your truth, 'cuz you believe it


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



This_person said:


> And that's the truth!
> 
> 
> 
> Well, your truth, 'cuz you believe it


 Well thank you T_p,

and God bless you for saying and posting that.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Well I bet that takes little effort.
> 
> And the "truth" always agrees with your own beliefs - with few small exceptions.
> 
> Of course that is not what Jesus Christ taught link HERE.



Why should respecting the truth require any effort?  What does effort have to do with it?  The truth is what it is.  And my beliefs are rooted in the truth not the other way around.  The verse you provided has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  The fact that I believe some will not go to heaven has nothing to do with whether I live them or not.  My dad does not believe in Christ.  He is not going to heaven unless he changes this.  But I still love him even though I disagree with him on his beliefs.  Christians are charged with bringing the Gospel to others, but you can’t make them drink.  THAT is what Jesus taught.  It has to do with our faith and God’s faithfulness.



JPC sr said:


> This is why it is correct to give our regard to ACTIONS and not to beliefs.



You can’t have one without the other.  Faith without actions (or works) is dead (James 2:14-18).  God gives no regard to your actions if you have no faith.  Actions all by themselves serve no purpose.  It’s like driving a car without knowing where you are going.  You are just driving around aimlessly.  It has to have a purpose.



JPC sr said:


> The "Good Samaritan" was one that had different beliefs (the un-truth) while the Priest and the Levite that had the "truth" yet had the incorrect actions.



This is false.  The Good Samaritan demonstrated someone who has faith and actions to back his faith up.  The priest had only faith with no actions.  The priest’s faith was dead.



JPC sr said:


> Like hate the sin and not the sinner - Jesus is saying to love doing right and hate doing wrong.
> 
> The action speak louder then the words (beliefs).



One of the things that is DOING RIGHT is believing in Christ.  Just like Christ knew that it was right to be baptized.  Now he charges us to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, not just with water.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> Why should respecting the truth require any effort?  What does effort have to do with it?  The truth is what it is.  And my beliefs are rooted in the truth not the other way around.


 Effort has to do with what we actually do according to those believed truths.

The actions count more then the words.

Like committing adultery in our mind as Jesus said but doing it as action is worse.

We have President Bush that believes his violent and abusive "truths" of torture and war-ing so it is not right to call our truths as if the truths are absolute.

Most times it is harmless when a person's believed truths are wrong or mistakes but when the incorrect truths are put into action then there becomes problems.

Therefore the real and hard efforts come from accepting the unwanted truths, the truths that do not comply with our beliefs.


----------



## Giantone

This_person said:


> He's been informed, and given example, chapter, verse, and explaination.  He chooses to not see.




.................which makes him and idiot.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> To clarify again,
> 
> I respect everyone's beliefs but I do not respect wrongful actions.




 The actions that you yourself admit to towards your own family are just some of the reasons I don't and won't respect you.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> Like committing adultery in our mind as Jesus said but doing it as action is worse.....



That is not what Jesus taught. 





> Mathew 5:21-48
> 
> 21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
> 
> 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
> 
> 23"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
> 
> 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.
> 
> 25"Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
> 
> 26"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
> 
> *27"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
> 
> 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.*
> 
> 29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
> 
> 30"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
> 
> 31"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';
> 
> 32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
> 
> 33"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
> 
> 34"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
> 
> 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
> 
> 36"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
> 
> 37"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
> 
> 38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
> 
> 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
> 
> 40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
> 
> 41"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
> 
> 42"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
> 
> 43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
> 
> 44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
> 
> 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
> 
> 46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
> 
> 47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
> 
> 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> That is not what Jesus taught.


 The point I made and still say is that committing the sin is worse then doing it in our mind or heart.

It is still wrong to think it, but to actually do it is worse.

Jesus words do not contradict that simple and obvious point.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The point I made and still say is that committing the sin is worse then doing it in our mind or heart.
> 
> It is still wrong to think it, but to actually do it is worse.
> 
> Jesus words do not contradict that simple and obvious point.



Yes, they do. 

No sin is greater or less than any other sin. To lust which involves no action is as bad as fornication which is as bad as adultery which is as bad as homosexuality which is as bad as murder which is as bad as lying which is as bad as worshiping some god other than YHWH. 

Sin is sin and all sin is deserving of death. 

And all sin can be forgiven through the grace of God and the salvation provided through Christ Jesus.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Yes, they do.
> 
> No sin is greater or less than any other sin. To lust which involves no action is as bad as fornication which is as bad as adultery which is as bad as homosexuality which is as bad as murder which is as bad as lying which is as bad as worshiping some god other than YHWH.
> 
> Sin is sin and all sin is deserving of death.
> 
> And all sin can be forgiven through the grace of God and the salvation provided through Christ Jesus.


 Well I certainly do not agree with that above,

and I do not see sense in arguing the truth since "2A" is believing it.

So I will word it differently so the point can be understood.

If a person thinks (in heart and brain) to murder or rape or violence, then there is no crime, but if that person actually goes out and does as thy thinketh then they have gone to far.

Turning thy wicked thoughts into wicked action is a far greater wrong.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Well I certainly do not agree with that above,
> 
> and I do not see sense in arguing the truth since "2A" is believing it.
> 
> So I will word it differently so the point can be understood.
> 
> If a person thinks (in heart and brain) to murder or rape or violence, then there is no crime, but if that person actually goes out and does as thy thinketh then they have gone to far.
> 
> Turning thy wicked thoughts into wicked action is a far greater wrong.



Not according to the Bible. Of course you don't believe the Bible, so that is why you disagree.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Effort has to do with what we actually do according to those believed truths.



This has nothing to do with my point that believing in the truth requires any amount of effort.



JPC sr said:


> The actions count more then the words.



But actions don’t count more than faith.  You can have all the good actions in the world, but without faith and belief in Christ your action mean nothing.



JPC sr said:


> Like committing adultery in our mind as Jesus said but doing it as action is worse.



Jesus also said that lusting after someone is also adultery.  So, just the thought of it is a sin.



JPC sr said:


> We have President Bush that believes his violent and abusive "truths" of torture and war-ing so it is not right to call our truths as if the truths are absolute.
> 
> Most times it is harmless when a person's believed truths are wrong or mistakes but when the incorrect truths are put into action then there becomes problems.



Was God being violent and abusive when He flooded the earth drowning every living being?  Was God being violent and abusive when He used his power to defeat the Egyptians when the Hebrews were freed?  Was God being violent and abusive when he used Moses to defeat the Amalekites?  What about when God helped David defeat the Philistines?  Was it violent, abusive and tortuous to allow his own son to die on the cross?  You know, with all of these things, you can call Bush (or anyone else) a liar and evil and  but God has a larger purpose that I trust.  My faith takes me way beyond what Bush or any other world leader does.



JPC sr said:


> Therefore the real and hard efforts come from accepting the unwanted truths, the truths that do not comply with our beliefs.



What?


----------



## Xaquin44

2ndAmendment said:


> Not according to the Bible. Of course you don't believe the Bible, so that is why you disagree.



I believe that if the bible says that checking some lady out is the same as killing her and eating the toes then the bible is stupid.

Common sense here people .... would you be equally angry if a guy flipped you off as if a guy killed your dog and then laughed at you?


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



PsyOps said:


> This has nothing to do with my point that believing in the truth requires any amount of effort.


 Well you certainly are consistant - and I do like that.

When I said link HERE that it takes little effort to respect the truth then I mean that you are only respecting those that agree with your beliefs and your buddies and like that is no effort at all to cheer on your own band.

And sinners respect those that respect them because it takes no effort to love thy friends and respect those that share your own beliefs - your own truths even when the truths are violent or nasty or sinful.

The trick or challenge is to love thy enemies (like respect the enemy) even though their truths are different then your truths. Therefore give respect to  those whom are considered as being wrong (having untruths).

It takes effort to respect those that are wrong, link HERE.





PsyOps said:


> But actions don’t count more than faith.  You can have all the good actions in the world, but without faith and belief in Christ your action mean nothing.


 That parable of the "good Samaritan" said otherwise.

The high priest did not act on his faith while the Samaritan was acting on his human compassion.

Faith without works is dead, but in works without faith there is praise from God.





PsyOps said:


> Jesus also said that lusting after someone is also adultery.  So, just the thought of it is a sin.


 The thought is sinful but the sinful thought in action is worse.





PsyOps said:


> Was God being violent and abusive when He flooded the earth drowning every living being?  Was God being violent and abusive when He used his power to defeat the Egyptians when the Hebrews were freed?  Was God being violent and abusive when he used Moses to defeat the Amalekites?  What about when God helped David defeat the Philistines?  Was it violent, abusive and tortuous to allow his own son to die on the cross?


 The violence and abuse are a functioning part of this world, so God makes ammends and He repents and He has regrets and His mistakes and His own guilt. 

The fact that God has feelings is a big part of the reason that everyone gets saved in the end.





PsyOps said:


> You know, with all of these things, you can call Bush (or anyone else) a liar and evil and  but God has a larger purpose that I trust.  My faith takes me way beyond what Bush or any other world leader does.


  I see many people doing that of mis-using their faith to cover up the evils of this world.

Mis-using faith to pretend that the atrocities of the Bush administration are correct and righteous is what makes America into an infidel Country.





PsyOps said:


> What?


 When people believe lies and hypocrisies and accept the untruths as their beliefs, then it takes much effort for them to face the real truths.

Some hard truths are absolute but most truths are not.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> :...
> Faith without works is dead, but in works without faith there is praise from God. The thought is sinful but the sinful thought in action is worse.


Wrong. They are both sin and all sin carries the same consequence.





JPC sr said:


> The violence and abuse are a functioning part of this world, so God makes ammends and He repents and He has regrets and His mistakes and His own guilt.


God never makes mistakes. You speak of God like He is a human. He is not. God is Holy. God has no guilt. It is true that God has expressed regret. For one, He regretted creating man to live so long (originally forever) that He shortened man's lifespan. 





JPC sr said:


> *The fact that God has feelings is a big part of the reason that everyone gets saved in the end.*  I see many people doing that of mis-using their faith to cover up the evils of this world.


LIE!


JPC sr said:


> Some hard truths are absolute but most truths are not.



Truth is absolute. It is not relative. It is humanism that makes truth relative and not absolute. Relative truth may or may not be Truth; Truth is always truth.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> Faith without works is dead, but in works without faith there is praise from God.




Where did you find this little nugget of bull?


----------



## godsbutterfly

Originally Posted by JPC sr  


"Faith without works is dead, but in works without faith there is praise from God."

If that were true we would have God praising Satan!  Surely no Faith in the works Satan does! Do you ever read what you write? That's too ludricous for words! Get a Clue!


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> Faith without works is dead, but in works without faith there is praise from God.





~mellabella~ said:


> Where did you find this little nugget of bull?


 That "nugget" comes from the parable of the righteous Samaritan link it HERE.

The Samaritans link HERE were examples of sinners and people that did not have the truths of God but that Samaritan showed himself righteous by his actions without true faith.

Thus Jesus told in that parable that a person's rightful works is what defines the person before man and God.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> That "nugget" comes from the parable of the righteous Samaritan link it HERE.
> 
> The Samaritans link HERE were examples of sinners and people that did not have the truths of God but that Samaritan showed himself righteous by his actions without true faith.
> 
> Thus Jesus told in that parable that a person's rightful works is what defines the person before man and God.



The Parable of the Good Samaritan 
 25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 
 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 

 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]" 

 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." 

 29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 

 30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' 

 36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 

 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." 
      Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
That is describing who a neighbor is. Read 25-28. That is the true answer.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> If that were true we would have God praising Satan!  Surely no Faith in the works Satan does! Do you ever read what you write? That's too ludricous for words! Get a Clue!


 The Apostle Paul did say that Satan's work would save the sinner on Judgement Day link HERE,

and that is the point of this whole thread - that everything works for the salvation of all.

Even the Devil gets saved in the end.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



camily said:


> The Parable of the Good Samaritan
> 25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
> 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
> 
> 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
> 
> 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
> 
> 29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
> 
> 30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
> 
> 36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
> 
> 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
> Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
> That is describing who a neighbor is. Read 25-28. That is the true answer.


 Amen sister C.

Faith without works is dead, and Jesus' parable of the righteous Samaritan praises the Godly works done by one of wrong beliefs.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> Amen sister C.
> 
> Faith without works is dead, and Jesus' parable of the righteous Samaritan praises the Godly works done by one of wrong beliefs.



Faith without works is dead, but you won't get to heaven on works alone. He said the Samaritan helped the man, he didn't say the samaritian was saved.


----------



## godsbutterfly

JPC sr said:


> The Apostle Paul did say that Satan's work would save the sinner on Judgement Day link HERE,
> 
> and that is the point of this whole thread - that everything works for the salvation of all.
> 
> Even the Devil gets saved in the end.



That is not what it says. It says that a man who sleeps with his father's wife (you know - like probably his own mother) should have his flesh destroyed by Satan so he  - the man - *NOT* Satan - can be saved.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



camily said:


> Faith without works is dead, but you won't get to heaven on works alone. He said the Samaritan helped the man, he didn't say the samaritian was saved.


 That is mixing up Jesus actual  teaching about being saved now in this present world - for that wrong and useless message of being saved after death.

Refer to post #1 of this thread.

Jesus message is salvation now and the Samaritan saved the man that was robbed and left as half dead.

The Samaritan was not trying to save himself for "Heaven", but the injured victim of crime was the one that got saved.

Jesus tells us to save people now in this world - save people from violence, injustices and pain in this world now, and not after death. 

Could we not immagine the Priest that got there before the Samaritan arrived and the Priest asking or telling the guy to have faith and believe and be saved after death while leaving the man half dead in the ditch.

Because the faithful Priest had no works and had the wrong message too.

The Samaritan gave no message but had actions more powerful then words and Jesus praised the righteous Samaritan for his works without faith.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



godsbutterfly said:


> That is not what it says. It says that a man who sleeps with his father's wife (you know - like probably his own mother) should have his flesh destroyed by Satan so he  - the man - *NOT* Satan - can be saved.


 Yes, I see that.

The point was that Satan is working the savation of that man at Paul's instruction shows.

Therefore even Satan is doing works for the salvation of mankind.

I put the last part about even the Devil getting saved just because I say people need to know that truth too.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> 
> and that is the point of this whole thread - that everything works for the salvation of all.
> 
> Even the Devil gets saved in the end.



Lies!!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The Apostle Paul did say that Satan's work would save the sinner on Judgement Day link HERE,





> 1 Corinthians 5
> Immorality Rebuked
> 1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
> 
> 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
> 
> 3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
> 
> 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
> 
> 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> 6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
> 
> 7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
> 
> 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
> 
> 9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
> 
> 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
> 
> 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
> 
> 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
> 
> 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.


Context is everything. JPC, this is one reason you were rebuked from the pulpit not once but twice.


----------



## JPC sr

*The truth will set us all free.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Context is everything. JPC, this is one reason you were rebuked from the pulpit not once but twice.


 The context does not change anything I said in my post so I am still right and correct.

Plus the Bible link I gave does give anyone full access to the entire Bible if they want or need it.

Plus I get rebuked here too and it does not work because I am right.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Therefore even Satan is doing works for the salvation of mankind.


Wow.


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> The context does not change anything I said in my post so I am still right and correct.
> 
> Plus the Bible link I gave does give anyone full access to the entire Bible if they want or need it.
> 
> Plus I get rebuked here too and it does not work because I am right.



You are WRONG. And the reason you get rebuked daily-no make that hourly- is being you are preaching untruths. And let me tell you this, if anyone fails to come to Christ because of your lies and deceit, then their blood is on your hands JPC. And I can only pray that you don't learn that the hard way.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The context does not change anything I said in my post so I am still right and correct.
> 
> Plus the Bible link I gave does give anyone full access to the entire Bible if they want or need it.
> 
> Plus I get rebuked here too and it does not work because I am right.



You are right only in your own mind. You truly need help. 

Do you have anyone that really loves you? Not out of Christian compassion or because they feel sorry for you, but someone that really loves you? If you do, you need to ask them to have you committed.


----------



## ~mellabella~

2ndAmendment said:


> you need to ask them to have you committed.



ouchies!


----------



## This_person

~mellabella~ said:


> ouchies!


Maybe, but I think we all believe it to be true, to some degree, for him.

It's really just sad.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

~mellabella~ said:


> ouchies!



I say that out of compassion for him. He is truly loony tunes if he actually believes all the junk he espouses and needs psychiatric help for a long time.


----------



## ~mellabella~

2ndAmendment said:


> I say that out of compassion for him. He is truly loony tunes if he actually believes all the junk he espouses and needs psychiatric help for a long time.



I think he is just misinformed. No, make that HIGHLY misinformed. Wait, I can't speak for him, so maybe I should ask him. 

JPC, are you highly misinformed?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

~mellabella~ said:


> I think he is just misinformed. No, make that HIGHLY misinformed. Wait, I can't speak for him, so maybe I should ask him.
> 
> JPC, are you highly misinformed?



I've met him in real life. There is a presence about him. He is strange and it is obvious.


----------



## Xaquin44

man, 2A put me on ignore, but not JPC lol

wonder why ....


----------



## ~mellabella~

2ndAmendment said:


> I've met him in real life. There is a presence about him. He is strange and it is obvious.



I've met him in real life too. He was actually quite pleasant in the brief moments we talked. I guess he's just more vocal on the forums and once you know him better??


----------



## 2ndAmendment

~mellabella~ said:


> I've met him in real life too. He was actually quite pleasant in the brief moments we talked. I guess he's just more vocal on the forums and once you know him better??



He can be pleasant. He is just strange and his ideals are mostly off the wall. Sometimes, very infrequently, he gets something right, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



~mellabella~ said:


> You are WRONG. And the reason you get rebuked daily-no make that hourly- is being you are preaching untruths. And let me tell you this, if anyone fails to come to Christ because of your lies and deceit, then their blood is on your hands JPC. And I can only pray that you don't learn that the hard way.


 Anyone that checks out what I am preaching here and finds it correct and true which it is, 

then I will be pleased to help anyone out of the religious false truths.

That works for me, and I am happy to help others.

You might live in religious fear and want others to share that fear but me and Jesus teach real salvation.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> You might live in religious fear and want others to share that fear but me and Jesus teach real salvation.



Jesus teaches True salvation. The Bible teaches True salvation.

You teach lies!!!


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> You are right only in your own mind. You truly need help.
> 
> Do you have anyone that really loves you? Not out of Christian compassion or because they feel sorry for you, but someone that really loves you? If you do, you need to ask them to have you committed.


 Your kind might well believe in forcing others to believe your violent and hateful interpretations of Jesus and God, 

but that sure is not love.


----------



## tommyjones

2ndAmendment said:


> Jesus teaches True salvation. The Bible teaches True salvation.
> 
> You teach lies!!!



2ndA finally finds someone on his intellectual level to debate


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



~mellabella~ said:


> I think he is just misinformed. No, make that HIGHLY misinformed. Wait, I can't speak for him, so maybe I should ask him.
> 
> JPC, are you highly misinformed?


 Now do not you remember the first post of this thread?

I certainly am not misinformed as I am well informed.

Me and the Bishop and his entire congregation of people all know the truth that Hell does not exist and never did and Hell could never exist because God is love and not a monster.

Both the Bishop and I know that everybody gets saved and that is correct.


----------



## Xaquin44

tommyjones said:


> 2ndA finally finds someone on his intellectual level to debate



he only argues with people who have no chance of putting together a coherent thought.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I certainly am not misinformed as I am well informed.


Lie


JPC sr said:


> Hell does not exist and never did and Hell could never exist


Lie



JPC sr said:


> everybody gets saved and that is correct.


Lie.

You are on a roll. Care to try for four in a row?


----------



## tommyjones

Xaquin44 said:


> he only argues with people who have no chance of putting together a coherent thought.



and check out his fine debating skills, i sure am glad i am on iggy


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



~mellabella~ said:


> I've met him in real life too. He was actually quite pleasant in the brief moments we talked. I guess he's just more vocal on the forums and once you know him better??


 We could have a "real life" meeting with 2A and others to preach their threats and fear tactics, and I will tell the rest of the story - the truth.

I would participate in some thing like that so no one needs to think that face to face would make any difference.

I explained to 2A's Pastor that everyone gets saved and that conversation worked out fine.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> I say that out of compassion for him. He is truly loony tunes if he actually believes all the junk he espouses and needs psychiatric help for a long time.


 I say we need to take note of this one BIG claim that the sanity is said to believe that there are people in torment being burned alive in pain and misery in Hell and that is the normal sanity.

While my need for psychiatric help is because I tell that nobody no-how are in Hell and God loves all His children and no one gets rejected and that is said to be one of the signs of mental illness.

So the violent torture of human beings (Hell) is normal healthy sanity, 

while believing in a all merciful loving God is abnormal and insane. 

From my perspective I do not see 2A or Orthodoxy as crazy but just ridden with fear and intolerance.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> :...
> 
> I explained to 2A's Pastor that everyone gets saved and that conversation worked out fine.



Remember what he told you? He said you were wrong.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I say we need to take note of this one BIG claim that the sanity is said to believe that there are people in torment being burned alive in pain and misery in Hell and that is the normal sanity.
> 
> While my need for psychiatric help is because I tell that nobody no-how are in Hell and God loves all His children and no one gets rejected and that is said to be one of the signs of mental illness.
> 
> So the violent torture of human beings (Hell) is normal healthy sanity,
> 
> while believing in a all merciful loving God is abnormal and insane.
> 
> From my perspective I do not see 2A or Orthodoxy as crazy but just ridden with fear and intolerance.



God is absolutely the God of love, forgiveness, and mercy. That is why He came as man to give us the gift of salvation for the acceptance, but the gift must be accepted. The Bible also says God is a vengeful God delivering recompense. 





> Psalm 94:1-3
> 
> 
> The LORD Implored to Avenge His People.
> 1O LORD, God of vengeance,
> God of vengeance, shine forth!
> 2Rise up, O Judge of the earth,
> Render recompense to the proud.
> 3How long shall the wicked, O LORD,
> How long shall the wicked exult?





> Isaiah 35:3-5
> 
> 3Encourage the exhausted, and strengthen the feeble.
> 4Say to those with anxious heart,
> "Take courage, fear not
> Behold, your God will come with vengeance;
> The recompense of God will come,
> But He will save you."
> 5Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
> And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.


And lest you post that that is only the Old Testament, a scripture from the New Testament.





> Romans 12:18-20
> 
> 18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
> 
> 19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
> 
> 20"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."


We are to be at peace with others and leave the vengeance to God. It is His domain.

You are full of new age nonsense.

It is not your belief that indicates a lack of sanity. Anyone can believe something that is totally wrong. It is your intransigence in the face of overwhelming evidence that refutes your belief that is insane. 

Sane people, when presented with credible overwhelming evidence that refutes one's belief and proffers a viable alternative, most often modify their stance or at least consider that their belief may be incorrect. It is your intransigence in the face of such evidence from the Word of God, the Bible, that indicates your lack of saneness.


----------



## tommyjones

JPC sr said:


> :
> From my perspective I do not see 2A or Orthodoxy as crazy but just ridden with fear and intolerance.





even a stopped clock........


----------



## ~mellabella~

JPC sr said:


> We could have a "real life" meeting with 2A and others to preach their threats and fear tactics, and I will tell the rest of the story - the truth.
> 
> I would participate in some thing like that so no one needs to think that face to face would make any difference.
> 
> I explained to 2A's Pastor that everyone gets saved and that conversation worked out fine.



You really are way out in left field. Its a shame too, because with the kind of hardheadedness you have to keep going regardless of ridicule Jesus really could have used you for good.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> You are full of new age nonsense.


 I do like the "new age" stuff and I believe that God wants people to grow and mature like entering the 21st century.

New age link HERE, and HERE. 

Having tolerance and respect for others are high virtues.

I find the "new age" stuff to be very beneficial.





2ndAmendment said:


> It is not your belief that indicates a lack of sanity. Anyone can believe something that is totally wrong. It is your intransigence in the face of overwhelming evidence that refutes your belief that is insane.
> 
> Sane people, when presented with credible overwhelming evidence that refutes one's belief and proffers a viable alternative, most often modify their stance or at least consider that their belief may be incorrect. It is your intransigence in the face of such evidence from the Word of God, the Bible, that indicates your lack of saneness.


 So 2A is a pretend psychiatrist passing out diagnosis based on his interpretation of the Bible.

The fact - and the point remains, *THAT :*

A person believing people are burning in a Hell in pain and torment is normal healthy sanity,

while me telling that God loves all His children and everyone gets full forgiveness and salvation - and that is the abnormal insanity.

Of course that psychiatric diagnosis is because I interpret the same Bible differently then the Orthodox dictate it.

And such as 2A even says people are tormented in fire Hell for thinking sin - not doing it but just THINKING sin gets them the torture for everlasting eternity and that is his sanity and not mine and it is not what Jesus taught either.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I do like the "new age" stuff and I believe that God wants people to grow and mature like entering the 21st century.
> 
> New age link HERE, and HERE.
> 
> Having tolerance and respect for others are high virtues.
> 
> I find the "new age" stuff to be very beneficial. So 2A is a pretend psychiatrist passing out diagnosis based on his interpretation of the Bible.
> 
> The fact - and the point remains, *THAT :*
> 
> A person believing people are burning in a Hell in pain and torment is normal healthy sanity,
> 
> while me telling that God loves all His children and everyone gets full forgiveness and salvation - and that is the abnormal insanity.
> 
> Of course that psychiatric diagnosis is because I interpret the same Bible differently then the Orthodox dictate it.
> 
> And such as 2A even says people are tormented in fire Hell for thinking sin - not doing it but just THINKING sin gets them the torture for everlasting eternity and that is his sanity and not mine and it is not what Jesus taught either.



Why do you persist in your lies? Jesus is the one who said that thinking a sin is as guilty as committing the sin. It is in the Bible. 





> Matthew 5:27-28
> 
> 27"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
> 
> 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.



If you are not insane, then you have an inability to read and comprehend what you read. It may be both.


----------



## Xaquin44

2ndAmendment said:


> If you are not insane, then you have an inability to read and comprehend what you read. It may be both.





2ndAmendment said:


> Matthew 5:21-24
> 
> 21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
> 
> 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
> 
> 23"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
> 
> 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.







2ndAmendment said:


> It is this.It is really, really hard to not violate that one when it comes to JPC.



too difficult for you apparently.  I guess 'not typing insults' is a difficult thing for a man of god?

I mean it does involve a lot of .... um .... not typing.

hmmmm


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Why do you persist in your lies? Jesus is the one who said that thinking a sin is as guilty as committing the sin. It is in the Bible.
> 
> If you are not insane, then you have an inability to read and comprehend what you read. It may be both.


 Jesus did say it was a sin to think it and so it is,

but He is not burning people in Hell for it and that is not only the point but it is the repeated point of this whole thread.

It is you that twist the words to make your false claims.

You and your Orthodoxy that scare people with torture and torment in fire but Jesus did not say that.

It being a sin does not change the fact that Jesus paid the full penalty for sin for everybody and Jesus paid it in full so the sin does not equate to that false and mystical Hell of your heteful immagination.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Jesus did say it was a sin to think it and so it is,
> 
> but He is not burning people in Hell for it and that is not only the point but it is the repeated point of this whole thread.
> 
> It is you that twist the words to make your false claims.
> 
> You and your Orthodoxy that scare people with torture and torment in fire but Jesus did not say that.
> 
> It being a sin does not change the fact that Jesus paid the full penalty for sin for everybody and Jesus paid it in full so the sin does not equate to that false and mystical Hell of your heteful immagination.



You are wrong again. Jesus did say very plainly that the unrighteous would be thrown into the fire.


> Matthew 13:36-52
> 
> 36Then He left the crowds and went into the house And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
> 
> 37And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
> 
> 38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
> 
> 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
> 
> 40"*So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
> 
> 41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
> 
> 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.*
> 
> 43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.
> Hidden Treasure
> 44"The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
> A Costly Pearl
> 45"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,
> 
> 46and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.
> A Dragnet
> 47"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
> 
> 48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
> 
> 49*"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
> 
> 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> *
> 51"Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes."
> 
> 52And Jesus said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old."



Jesus paid the price for all who *accept* the gift of salvation.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> You are wrong again. Jesus did say very plainly that the unrighteous would be thrown into the fire.
> 
> Jesus paid the price for all who *accept* the gift of salvation.


 The so-called "lake of fire" means fire that cleans and purifies and not brutal torture for all enternity.

That claim that people must accept the gift of Jesus is completely contrary to the unconditional love of God.

The idea of pain and torment and misery in a Hell fire is a man made concept while the message from God and delivered by Jesus was and is to love thy enemies link HERE.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The so-called "lake of fire" means fire that cleans and purifies and not brutal torture for all enternity.
> 
> That claim that people must accept the gift of Jesus is completely contrary to the unconditional love of God.
> 
> The idea of pain and torment and misery in a Hell fire is a man made concept while the message from God and delivered by Jesus was and is to love thy enemies link HERE.



That is not what the Bible says. 





> Revelation 20:7-15
> 
> 7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
> 
> 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
> 
> 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
> 
> 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and *they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.*
> Judgment at the Throne of God
> 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
> 
> 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
> 
> 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
> 
> 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.
> 
> 15And* if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.*


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> That is not what the Bible says.


 Well I told what my beliefs are and I stand by what I posted as correct and true,

and you have given your beliefs that you believe are correct.

So I say this is fine by me, and we do not need to be in agreement. 

I still go to Churches that have those same wrong beliefs and that is just a sad reality.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



~mellabella~ said:


> You really are way out in left field. Its a shame too, because with the kind of hardheadedness you have to keep going regardless of ridicule Jesus really could have used you for good.


 Part of my training comes from being the sixth of 12 siblings and we all fought and competed like animals.

And I see my efforts as promoting the right way so do not count Jesus out of my efforts.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Jesus did say it was a sin to think it and so it is,
> 
> but He is not burning people in Hell for it and that is not only the point but it is the repeated point of this whole thread.



It isn’t God that is burning people in hell.  When someone commits murder knowing what the penalty (execution) is, is it the law’s fault for executing this person or is it the person’s fault for committing the crime?  You know going in that not believing is going to have the consequence of eternal damnation.  

Which begs the question… If it’s not required to believe in order to go to heaven, then why do you believe?  Why bother?


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> The so-called "lake of fire" means fire that cleans and purifies and not brutal torture for all enternity.
> 
> That claim that people must accept the gift of Jesus is completely contrary to the unconditional love of God.
> 
> The idea of pain and torment and misery in a Hell fire is a man made concept while the message from God and delivered by Jesus was and is to love thy enemies link HERE.



You still aren’t getting the “unconditional love” thing.  Because there are consequences to not believing is not an indication of God’s conditions on His love for us; it’s our placing conditions on loving Him.  God is extending a FREE gift to us for salvation.  This GIFT is Christ.  In order for us to obtain this gift we have to receive it.  If someone gives you money it’s not yours until you actually take it.  If you refuse it, then it isn’t really yours.  It’s like eating.  The food is in front of you; it’s yours to eat.  But it doesn’t become a part of you until you eat it.  If you refuse to eat it you will certain die of starvation; a horrible and painful death.  The unconditional part of this is God places the gift on the table; it’s always there.  It sits there always until you decide to take it.  As long as you decide not to take it, it remains on the table.  He has given it to you without any conditions; those that don’t believe haven’t actually taken it.  And if you don’t take it the consequence is… well you know already.  And the choice is yours not God’s.  So He is not torturing you.  It is you that is accepting the consequence of not accepting Him.  I mean not only is this biblically true but it is logical.  It makes sense that if something is placed in front of you, if you refuse it, then you don’t get it.  The other logical part is: Why would God force you to have something you don’t want?  If god wanted to force it on us he could; but he doesn’t.  He offers it.  We either chose or not.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> It isn’t God that is burning people in hell.  When someone commits murder knowing what the penalty (execution) is, is it the law’s fault for executing this person or is it the person’s fault for committing the crime?  You know going in that not believing is going to have the consequence of eternal damnation.


 Many Countries in this World have stopped execution as a form of punishment and some States in the USA have stopped executions and even our Maryland might stop the barbaric practice soon because mankind is slowly growing out of our barbaric past brutality concepts.

The idea of people burning in torment of a mystical Hell is just a man-made idea based in people's acceptance of internalized cruelties.

Every person will be saved and our Father God will not abuse any of His children - not even one will stay lost. 





PsyOps said:


> Which begs the question… If it’s not required to believe in order to go to heaven, then why do you believe?  Why bother?


 Believe because it is real and it is true.

The blessings and power and rewards within the truths are so great that it surpasses any thought of death or of cruel punishment.

People in bondage will work by constant force but free people will act with energy and gusto.

It use to be thought that the Egyption Pyramids were built by slaves but now they finally figured out that the workers build the Pyramids out of pride and enthusiasm.

We are not to be the servants of Heaven - we are the children of God with rightful claim as prince and princess to the Kingdom.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> I mean not only is this biblically true but it is logical.  It makes sense that if something is placed in front of you, if you refuse it, then you don’t get it.  The other logical part is: Why would God force you to have something you don’t want?  If god wanted to force it on us he could; but he doesn’t.  He offers it.  We either chose or not.


 God will force salvation onto us all and we do not have the option of saying no.

Did anyone ask not to be born? No. Does any one ask to be resurrected? Instead we could be left alone dead in the grave. God is forcing the Judgement Day and everyone will get saved whether anyone likes it or not. 

We are the children of God and not His servants or His panws, and the children do not say no to our Father God.

Salvation is not a matter of punishment but of rescue.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> The idea of people burning in torment of a mystical Hell is just a man-made idea based in people's acceptance of internalized cruelties.
> 
> Every person will be saved and our Father God will not abuse any of His children - not even one will stay lost.  Believe because it is real and it is true.


Lies.



JPC sr said:


> God will force salvation onto us all and we do not have the option of saying no.
> 
> Did anyone ask not to be born? No. Does any one ask to be resurrected? Instead we could be left alone dead in the grave. God is forcing the Judgement Day and everyone will get saved whether anyone likes it or not.


Lies.





JPC sr said:


> Salvation is not a matter of punishment but of rescue.


True. But Salvation is a gift through grace. You must accept a gift. If you do not, you do not have the gift even though it is offered.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Lies.
> 
> Lies.True. But Salvation is a gift through grace. You must accept a gift. If you do not, you do not have the gift even though it is offered.


 Well I accept the gift of salvation so that makes me saved too.

But since I believe everyone gets saved too then does that belief doom me to burn in Hell anyway?

Or is it okay to believe that God loves His enemies and that Hell does not exist and still be saved?

Of course I know the correct answers to those questions, but does the Christian thought police demand that we accept people burning in Hell for all eternity as part of our salvation requirement?

Or can I believe differently then the Orthodox and still be saved?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Well I accept the gift of salvation so that makes me saved too.
> 
> But since I believe everyone gets saved too then does that belief doom me to burn in Hell anyway?
> 
> Or is it okay to believe that God loves His enemies and that Hell does not exist and still be saved?
> 
> Of course I know the correct answers to those questions, but does the Christian thought police demand that we accept people burning in Hell for all eternity as part of our salvation requirement?
> 
> Or can I believe differently then the Orthodox and still be saved?



If you know Jesus as Savior and Lord then you will enter God's kingdom.

God does love His enemies. He created satan. But hell, the lake of fire, does exist and satn and those whose name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into it. Can you believe it does not and still be a Christian? I am not the judge of that. You have to take that up with God.

Jesus said you must have the faith of a child. That is blind faith. God's word says it. A Christian must believe it. Again. I am not your judge. God knows your heart. He will judge your error.

In the meantime, if you insist on posting things that contradict the Bible, then I must insist on calling them the heresies that they are.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> God will force salvation onto us all and we do not have the option of saying no.



Then why did Jesus say “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned”?  This is a choice.  Why did Christ give us the choice?  If so many chose not to believe why would God force something on them they don’t want?  Why would He even give us a choice to believe or not believe?  Please explain this cruel game God is playing with us.



JPC sr said:


> Did anyone ask not to be born? No. Does any one ask to be resurrected? Instead we could be left alone dead in the grave. God is forcing the Judgement Day and everyone will get saved whether anyone likes it or not.



Life is also a gift that not everyone gets.  Some are born and die in a short time.  Some don’t even make it out of the womb.  Some (sadly) are aborted.  Some are taken in a car accident at 16.  Do we know God’s will?  I think not.  For those that are given the choice and can make that choice and refuse to accept that choice, the consequences are clear.  



JPC sr said:


> We are the children of God and not His servants or His panws, and the children do not say no to our Father God.



Jesus was God’s "pawn" (to use your word).  He served God’s purpose.  And we, when we become Christians we serve God as pawns for his purpose.  If you are not seeing this then perhaps you need to reevaluate.



JPC sr said:


> Salvation is not a matter of punishment but of rescue.



Yes salvation is a matter of rescue from condemnation.  And where there is no salvation there is condemnation.  This statement you just posted proves everything I have been saying.  You should read it real carefully.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> Then why did Jesus say “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned”?  This is a choice.  Why did Christ give us the choice?  If so many chose not to believe why would God force something on them they don’t want?  Why would He even give us a choice to believe or not believe?  Please explain this cruel game God is playing with us.


 He is saying to choose today for today.

We are to do it and live it now - here in this world now - the work and the job is now in this life and not after death.

Jesus gave an immediate message that applies immediately and not later after death.

It is a self severing and self righteous pretense that things are okay for now because God is in control now, and worry about after death as if we get to choose for after dead.

The exact opposite is true - worry about now for the after-life is none of our concern as God has taken care of the after life and we need to care for the present world now.





PsyOps said:


> Life is also a gift that not everyone gets.  Some are born and die in a short time.  Some don’t even make it out of the womb.  Some (sadly) are aborted.  Some are taken in a car accident at 16.  Do we know God’s will?  I think not.  For those that are given the choice and can make that choice and refuse to accept that choice, the consequences are clear.


 There is no clear after-life, no "clear" Hell, those that die without choices are not burning in torment.





PsyOps said:


> Jesus was God’s "pawn" (to use your word).  He served God’s purpose.  And we, when we become Christians we serve God as pawns for his purpose.  If you are not seeing this then perhaps you need to reevaluate.


 It appears that you are seeing yourself in far to grandious a style.

You and "Christians" are not "pawns" of God.





PsyOps said:


> Yes salvation is a matter of rescue from condemnation.  And where there is no salvation there is condemnation.  This statement you just posted proves everything I have been saying.  You should read it real carefully.


 It is because you put your deffinition to my words as you do to the Bible's words.

"Condemnation" does not mean God is torturing and tormenting His enemies in the fires of a Hell.

Your self imposed deffinition to the words is where we differ.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> He is saying to choose today for today.
> 
> We are to do it and live it now - here in this world now - the work and the job is now in this life and not after death.
> 
> Jesus gave an immediate message that applies immediately and not later after death.
> 
> It is a self severing and self righteous pretense that things are okay for now because God is in control now, and worry about after death as if we get to choose for after dead.
> 
> The exact opposite is true - worry about now for the after-life is none of our concern as God has taken care of the after life and we need to care for the present world now.



So, what’s the purpose of doing anything here and now?  Do you know how many Christians I’ve known that did it right for the “here and now” and died a horrible death from cancer?  So, what are you trying to tell me, that there is something to gain here and now by doing “the work and the job” here and now?  Why don’t you tell me how well your life is going by doing it right “here and now”?



JPC sr said:


> It appears that you are seeing yourself in far to grandious a style.
> 
> You and "Christians" are not "pawns" of God.



Is that how it appears to you?  For me it’s an honor and a complete blessing to call myself a servant to God.  Nothing “grandiose”.  But it is special and uplifting.  I want God to use me for His purpose; from that aspect I am His pawn.  You, on the other hand, are self-serving and intend to manipulate God for your own purpose.  You twist his Word around to suit your own selfish reasons.  



JPC sr said:


> It is because you put your deffinition to my words as you do to the Bible's words.
> 
> "Condemnation" does not mean God is torturing and tormenting His enemies in the fires of a Hell.
> 
> Your self imposed deffinition to the words is where we differ.



There you go again.  You’re just not paying attention.  I have said it and will said it again; it is NOT God that is torturing and tormenting those that do not accept Christ.  It is those that do not accept Christ that are condemning themselves by making that conscious choice.  Condemnation means judgment.  The Bible has that word everywhere and you should pay more attention to it.  The price for not believing is condemnation or judgment.  If I tell my kid if he touches the fragile lamp he will be grounded in his room for a week; when he finally touches it and breaks it does that mean I condemned him, or did he condemn himself by disobeying me?  I made the rule, he broke it.  God made the rule “accept Christ or be condemned”.  If you chose not to follow that rule you face the consequences.  You bring judgment on yourself.

Your problem is, you think everything is absolutely for free.  The gift is free for the taking, but you have to take it.  If you don’t take it then how can you claim to have it?  You want something out of nothing.  You don’t want rules.  You want to manipulate everything to fit your purpose.  The child support laws is your pet peeve.  You failed to pay child support so now you are bent on getting into Congress to change that to fit your own personal agenda.  This thing with God is the same.  You don’t want to have to comply to the rules set in front of you.  You want to establish your own rules in order to make it easier for you.  You may be able to run into Congress and get your way with the child support laws, but you can’t get into God’s court and change his rules.  He alone will decide your fate.   And there are two paths: one you want to go and one you don’t.  That’s just the way it is, and you have not accepted this yet.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> So, what’s the purpose of doing anything here and now?  Do you know how many Christians I’ve known that did it right for the “here and now” and died a horrible death from cancer?  So, what are you trying to tell me, that there is something to gain here and now by doing “the work and the job” here and now?  Why don’t you tell me how well your life is going by doing it right “here and now”?


 Doing nothing is far from doing right.

Most of Christianity teaches the people to be passive and submissive sheep and call that "doing right".

Jesus instructed His followers to take up their own cross and fight for right and social justice and for truth.

My life is very difficult and demanding because I follow the commands as best as I can.

We all must die and those "Christians" have no superior claim in their dying.

Jesus told us all the way to die with honor and glory by following the great martyr.


----------



## Kain99

Chuck Norris doesn't tea bag... He potato sacks!


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Kain99 said:


> Chuck Norris doesn't


 Why not we try to stay on the decent and clean side over here?


----------



## Kain99

JPC sr said:


> Why not we try to stay on the decent and clean side over here?



Because you guys are serious, you are going to self implode!


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Kain99 said:


> Because you guys are serious, you are going to self implode!


 Well we are discussing a "serious" subject but I see no reason to stop it by bringing it down to the gutter.

We already have enough things in this world to keep people down and unimformed.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> We already have enough things in this world to keep people down and unimformed.


Been looking in the mirror again, Jimmy?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> There you go again.  You’re just not paying attention.  I have said it and will said it again; it is NOT God that is torturing and tormenting those that do not accept Christ.  It is those that do not accept Christ that are condemning themselves by making that conscious choice.  Condemnation means judgment.  The Bible has that word everywhere and you should pay more attention to it.  The price for not believing is condemnation or judgment.  If I tell my kid if he touches the fragile lamp he will be grounded in his room for a week; when he finally touches it and breaks it does that mean I condemned him, or did he condemn himself by disobeying me?  I made the rule, he broke it.  God made the rule “accept Christ or be condemned”.  If you chose not to follow that rule you face the consequences.  You bring judgment on yourself.


 God does not twist the truth around like that.

Even in this world we have many Countries and in the USA there are many States that have stopped executions and we know who is doing the executions (the killing) and it is not the prisoner doing the executions.

The blaming of a prisoner for their own punishment is just a cheap cutdown like kicking the person while they are down.

If your God is burning people in a Hell and you blame those burning then you will make an excellant demon in the after-life.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Even in this world we have many Countries and in the USA there are many States that have stopped executions and we know who is doing the executions (the killing) and it is not the prisoner doing the executions.



The state of MD still conducts executions, the most recent being in Dec 2005.  So we still have many that still do executions.  If someone comes to MD and commits murder they do so with the understanding that it is THEY that subject themselves to this penalty.  If I try to walk across the beltway and get hit by a car it’s not the driver's fault.  It’s mine for ignoring the risk and consequences.



JPC sr said:


> The blaming of a prisoner for their own punishment is just a cheap cutdown like kicking the person while they are down.



What the heck are you talking about?  It’s not my fault or anyone else’s (AND CERTAINLY NOT THE LAW’S FAULT) that any criminal is in jail.  It’s the criminal’s fault and no one else’s.  They brought upon themselves.  If that person has any desire for rehabilitation they would be kicking themselves down every day as a reminder that we have laws and they should abide by those laws.  Calling my comments as a “cheap cutdown” on further explains why you feel salvation is free; that there are no (and shouldn’t be) any consequences for breaking man’s laws and, especially, God’s laws.  



JPC sr said:


> If your God is burning people in a Hell and you blame those burning then you will make an excellant demon in the after-life.



And once again you still don’t get it.  It says it plainly in Revelation 20:15 – “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.” and in Matthew 13:49-50 – “Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.”


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> And once again you still don’t get it.  It says it plainly in Revelation 20:15 – “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.” and in Matthew 13:49-50 – “Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.”


 Sure I get it - but the Book of Revelations is using symbols and metaphors that are meant to mean some thing different then what it says.

The Book of revelation is not to be taken literally or else the symbols would be ridiculous, see Link Here.

Jesus spoke in symbols and parables too like the Matthew text you said above link HERE.

The lake of fire means a place of cleaning and purification and not torture and pain for ever and ever.

God loves His enemies and does not hurt them link HERE.

People are letting their fear to do the interpreting and the fear is wrong.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Sure I get it - but the Book of Revelations is using symbols and metaphors that are meant to mean some thing different then what it says.
> 
> The Book of revelation is not to be taken literally or else the symbols would be ridiculous, see Link Here.
> 
> Jesus spoke in symbols and parables too like the Matthew text you said above link HERE.
> 
> The lake of fire means a place of cleaning and purification and not torture and pain for ever and ever.
> 
> God loves His enemies and does not hurt them link HERE.
> 
> People are letting their fear to do the interpreting and the fear is wrong.



You have just talked yourself out of the truth of The Word.  When you can reduce your “belief” to symbology and that this Word has no real meaning except as a story or metaphor you have proven you don’t really believe in this Word at all.  

The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14).  Do you understand what death is?  God does not talk about a grave or hell as before regarding those who are dead.  He talks about a “lake of fire”.  A place of real suffering.  Revelation 20:15- “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.”  In other words they suffer the second death.  Is this a REAL lake of fire?  I have no idea.  All I know is these are the people that don’t make it into heaven.  These are the people (according to the Bible) that will suffer painfully; the “weeping and gnashing of teeth”.  Do I believe this in the literal sense?  Yes I do.  Do I claim to understand what this suffer will be like?  No!  All I know is it is a place I don’t want to be.  

God loves everyone, but he also is not going to force anyone to believe in Him.  He is going to let us decide and face the consequences.  It is not God that does this to us.
It is us that subjects ourselves to this “hurt”.  The verse you quoted is a command by Christ to us to love each other and to love God.  This has nothing to do with God’s judgment on us.  Your belief that we all go to heaven, no matter what, cancels out any requirement for God to judge us.  It’s just not necessary in your world.  But the Bible of full of explaining how God will judge us.  Why would God do this?  Judge us?  Why would he waste His time when he’s just going to raise us up in the end?

But you have chosen to not believe this.  You have chosen to believe this is nothing more than a book full of parables and has no real meaning.  You have convinced yourself that no matter what we do, and regardless of whether we accept Christ or not, God will accept us into heaven with loving arms.  You even believe that Satan goes to heaven too even after being shown, time and time again, Revelation 20:10- “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”  You do understand what “TORMENTED” menas, don’t you?  None of what you believe is consistent with the Bible.  Yet you constantly try to use it for your deceptive purposes.  Do I believe you will go to this lake of fire because of it?  I have no idea.  All I know is if you don’t accept Christ you don’t receive the gift.  You WILL see this lake of fire and you WILL only bring this on yourself as you know of the Word of God and Christ.  That is about as basic as it gets.  Grasping this basic concept, in my opinion, is necessary for living a life that is consistent with what Christ demands of us.

You certainly are going to have a lot to answer for for trying to convey such a deceptive message.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> You have just talked yourself out of the truth of The Word.  When you can reduce your “belief” to symbology and that this Word has no real meaning except as a story or metaphor you have proven you don’t really believe in this Word at all.


 It is very true that "Revelations" does not have much credibility.

It is not the words of Jesus but claims to be Jesus speaking to a "John" and that John pretends to be the Apostle when it is really a "John the Diviner" and not John the Apostle and this so-called Jesus Reveletions is a far cry from what Jesus said in the Gospels.  

Now we have Christians that are determined to believe those symbols over top of the plain words spoken by Jesus in the Gospels. 

The best arguement against the mystical Hell is Jesus' own words describing the Father God link HERE.

By the fear of death and fear of burning you miss the message.





PsyOps said:


> The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14).  Do you understand what death is?  God does not talk about a grave or hell as before regarding those who are dead.  He talks about a “lake of fire”.  A place of real suffering.  Revelation 20:15- “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.”  In other words they suffer the second death.  Is this a REAL lake of fire?  I have no idea.


 "Death" does not mean people burning in Hell for all eternity.

Do you not understand what "death" means?

That "lake of fire" produces the "second death" not eternal life in Hell. DEATH.  

You ask me if I understand "death" when you pretend it means eternal life in Hell and death does not mean eternal life.

The second death means dead to sin and then receive eternal life link HERE.

One can not be dead (death) and have eternal life at the same time because death and life are opposites of each other.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> It is very true that "Revelations" does not have much credibility.



Oh I see, Revelation is a big fat lie.  If you believe Revelation has no credibility then how is it you even believe there is a resurrection?  This is what Revelation is all about.  

But, we really don’t need to go on.  You have just proven that you do not believe in the Word of God.  All you intend to do here is stir things up and engage in worthless debate.  You’re nothing more than a troublemaker.  



JPC sr said:


> It is not the words of Jesus but claims to be Jesus speaking to a "John" and that John pretends to be the Apostle when it is really a "John the Diviner" and not John the Apostle and this so-called Jesus Reveletions is a far cry from what Jesus said in the Gospels.



This proves that you do not believe in the inspired Word of God; that God speaks through others.  You have posted quote after quote of verses from various Gospels; books that were written by mere men.  Christ never wrote a word of it.  So, based on your above assessment it can’t be valid.  It’s all hearsay.



JPC sr said:


> Now we have Christians that are determined to believe those symbols over top of the plain words spoken by Jesus in the Gospels.



Words *claimed *to be spoken by Jesus.  I mean really these books were not written by Jesus.  They are really just second-hand information.  Can’t be reliable, just like Revelation.

The best arguement against the mystical Hell is Jesus' own words describing the Father God link HERE.

Unreliable!  As you stated this is just a person writing about Jesus.  Jesus never wrote this.  Can’t be trusted.



JPC sr said:


> By the fear of death and fear of burning you miss the message.



The message isn’t about death and burning and the fear thereof; the message is about salvation and choices.  You’ve made yours perfectly clear and you certainly will have much to answer for.



JPC sr said:


> "Death" does not mean people burning in Hell for all eternity.



Yes it does.  It says it pretty clearly in the verses from Revelation I provided.  But, as you stated (and all so conveniently for your own purposes) it can’t be trusted.



JPC sr said:


> Do you not understand what "death" means?



You answered my question with the same question?  Not surprised.



JPC sr said:


> That "lake of fire" produces the "second death" not eternal life in Hell. DEATH.
> 
> You ask me if I understand "death" when you pretend it means eternal life in Hell and death does not mean eternal life.



God is talking about the death of the soul.  I guess this needs very basic terms… Your soul either gets to go to heaven or to hell.  Those who go to heaven their souls live in eternal bliss and peace.  Those who go to hell live in eternal damnation.  The term death is used to describe this existence.  The actual meaning is eternal damnation.  So, if you want to apply the word “life” or “live” to this, then yes you live, but it is a life of eternal misery.  The Bible is quite clear about this.



JPC sr said:


> The second death means dead to sin and then receive eternal life link HERE.



Ah, the book of Romans, written by another mere man (Paul).  Not even one of Jesus’ original apostles.  Can’t be trusted.  Oh and the verse you quote states that “the wages of sin is death”.  DEATH.  Go back and read Revelation chapter 20 again and understand the second death.  Oh wait, that’s right, Revelations is a lie, a “far cry” from the words spoken by Christ.  “The gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus.”  There’s that word gift again.  When someone gives you a gift you have to actively and consciously receive it in order for it to be yours.  Until then it’s not yours.  Doesn’t matter anyway; it’s all a bunch of hooey since it was only written by a second-hand non-apostle.  



JPC sr said:


> One can not be dead (death) and have eternal life at the same time because death and life are opposites of each other.



It means dead to God.  Those who are sent to the lake of fire are dead to God.  Do you get this?  DEAD TO GOD!

You have made it clear that you don’t really believe in the Bible at all.  You have set your own definition of who God is and His purpose.  There is no need for this conversation to go on any further.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> You’re nothing more than a troublemaker.
> 
> God is talking about the death of the soul.  I guess this needs very basic terms… Your soul either gets to go to heaven or to hell.  Those who go to heaven their souls live in eternal bliss and peace.  Those who go to hell live in eternal damnation.  The term death is used to describe this existence.  The actual meaning is eternal damnation.  So, if you want to apply the word “life” or “live” to this, then yes you live, but it is a life of eternal misery.  The Bible is quite clear about this.
> 
> Oh and the verse you quote states that “the wages of sin is death”.  DEATH.  Go back and read Revelation chapter 20 again and understand the second death.
> 
> It means dead to God.  Those who are sent to the lake of fire are dead to God.  Do you get this?  DEAD TO GOD!


 Even if you do call it "death of the soul" or "dead to God" the Apostle Paul in the Bible called it "dead to sin" and ONLY eternal life comes otherwise link HERE. 

The "second death" in the "lake of fire" is death to sin and salvation for the worst of the worst sinners so then everybody gets saved.

Fire is a possitive symbol for the Holy Spirit and fire stands for the word of God and fire never ever means torturing people in a Hell because God loves His enemies and love does not ever means burn for all eternity link HERE.

God sent Jesus with a wonderful message of redemption and forgiveness and salvation for all of mankind.

Not even one nasty rotten sheep will be left or lost as we all will be saved unconditionally.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Even if you do call it "death of the soul" or "dead to God" the Apostle Paul in the Bible called it "dead to sin" and ONLY eternal life comes otherwise link HERE.
> 
> The "second death" in the "lake of fire" is death to sin and salvation for the worst of the worst sinners so then everybody gets saved.
> 
> Fire is a possitive symbol for the Holy Spirit and fire stands for the word of God and fire never ever means torturing people in a Hell because God loves His enemies and love does not ever means burn for all eternity link HERE.
> 
> God sent Jesus with a wonderful message of redemption and forgiveness and salvation for all of mankind.
> 
> Not even one nasty rotten sheep will be left or lost as we all will be saved unconditionally.



As you wrote yourself 



JPC sr said:


> "It is very true that "Revelations" does not have much credibility.
> 
> It is not the words of Jesus but claims to be Jesus speaking to a "John" and that John pretends to be the Apostle when it is really a "John the Diviner" and not John the Apostle and this so-called Jesus Reveletions is a far cry from what Jesus said in the Gospels."



THE BIBLE HAS *NO CREDIBILITY *SINCE IT WAS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE OTHER THAN JESUS.  It's all hearsay.

Without any credibility how can we be sure that there any such thing as salvation.  YOUR words.  Not mine.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> As you wrote yourself
> 
> THE BIBLE HAS *NO CREDIBILITY *SINCE IT WAS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE OTHER THAN JESUS.  It's all hearsay.
> 
> Without any credibility how can we be sure that there any such thing as salvation.  YOUR words.  Not mine.


 That is far from what I said, and you are simply doing the all-or-nothing nonsense.

Like if Jonah was not swallowed by a BIG fish then Jesus did not exist, which is foolish.

If Revelations is a phony then the whole Bible is worthless - and that is not true.

God is in life / in reality, and God is not the Bible and God is not IN the Bible.

Protestants have made a false idol out of the Bible and Jesus told us to seek out the truth.

When I researched the subject it became really kind of easy to find out the true parts and separating truth from fiction makes the Bible a hundred times more interesting.

I find the small truths to be so very powerful that the large non-truths to be worthless information anyway.

If the Bible did not exist and maybe destroyed completely in the first century then the salvation of Jesus would still be true and effective and people today would not be any more uninformed then those that believe our loving Father God would burn people in a Hell.

That false interpretation of God lives in an "infalible book" while the true God lives out here in the real world.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



JPC sr said:


> Even if you do call it "death of the soul" or "dead to God" the Apostle Paul in the Bible called it "dead to sin" and ONLY eternal life comes otherwise link HERE.
> 
> The "second death" in the "lake of fire" is death to sin and salvation for the worst of the worst sinners so then everybody gets saved.
> 
> Fire is a possitive symbol for the Holy Spirit and fire stands for the word of God and fire never ever means torturing people in a Hell because God loves His enemies and love does not ever means burn for all eternity link HERE.
> 
> God sent Jesus with a wonderful message of redemption and forgiveness and salvation for all of mankind.
> 
> Not even one nasty rotten sheep will be left or lost as we all will be saved unconditionally.


 Now I feel I need to point out that above I showed from the Bible that the "lake of fire" is a symbol for purification and not torture in Hell, and I showed from the Bible that the "second death" means dead to sin and thus saved, so I used the Bible correctly to show that the concept of "Hell" is not true, and I showed from the Bible that everyone does get saved in the end.

So the belief that parts of the Bible being faked and fraudulent has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of no Hell and everyone gets saved.

Therefore even the fake parts of the Bible agree that everybody gets saved and there is no place of torture called "Hell".

Just *FYI*.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Even if you do call it "death of the soul" or "dead to God" the Apostle Paul in the Bible called it "dead to sin" and ONLY eternal life comes otherwise link HERE.
> 
> The "second death" in the "lake of fire" is death to sin and salvation for the worst of the worst sinners so then everybody gets saved.
> 
> Fire is a possitive symbol for the Holy Spirit and fire stands for the word of God and fire never ever means torturing people in a Hell because God loves His enemies and love does not ever means burn for all eternity link HERE.
> 
> God sent Jesus with a wonderful message of redemption and forgiveness and salvation for all of mankind.
> 
> Not even one nasty rotten sheep will be left or lost as we all will be saved unconditionally.


It is plain to see for anyone who has actually read the Bible, you have no understanding of what you post. Death of the soul or dead to God and dead to sin are two totally different concepts. In order to not suffer being dead to God you must become dead to sin.

Fire can be used as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, but the use in the phrase "lake of fire" is plain since "the lake of fire" is a place of eternal torment. Therefore, the meaning of the word fire in "lafe of fire" is not the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit does not bring torment but joy.

Not everyone is saved. You are wrong. Your sources are wrong. Your interpretation is wrong. Your actions are wrong. You will be defeated in the election. Take that defeat as a sign that God is telling you that you are wrong. For if you are right, God will let you prevail in the election no matter how inconceivable it is in human understanding.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Now I feel I need to point out that above I showed from the Bible that the "lake of fire" is a symbol for purification and not torture in Hell, and I showed from the Bible that the "second death" means dead to sin and thus saved, so I used the Bible correctly to show that the concept of "Hell" is not true, and I showed from the Bible that everyone does get saved in the end.
> 
> So the belief that parts of the Bible being faked and fraudulent has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of no Hell and everyone gets saved.
> 
> Therefore even the fake parts of the Bible agree that everybody gets saved and there is no place of torture called "Hell".
> 
> Just *FYI*.



Do not believe JPC. You too, Kain. If you do you are believing and relying on lies. 

The Bible is the word of God; the history of the great "I AM" revealed to man. The prophesy of what God will bring to pass and Christ's kingdom that will be established, and of the casting out of the kingdom of satan, the former angels that followed satan in the battle against God, and all humans that do not find God's path to salvation through righteousness.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> You will be defeated in the election. Take that defeat as a sign that God is telling you that you are wrong. For if you are right, God will let you prevail in the election no matter how inconceivable it is in human understanding.


 So you say if I win this election then God is on my side!!!!

And all I need is the 50.1 % of the vote and I WIN.   

But in my own belief then God only ask me to deliver the message that offers a way out and that I am doing so I see my campaign as a BIG win already.

The vote is only a physical act and not God acting - in fact the majority of people kind of voted against Jesus when He was here on earth so I do not believe the popular vote is a true reflection of the will of God.

Even Adolf Hitler got voted in - and you might call that God's work but I do not.

I feel much like the prophet Jonah link HERE because like Jonah I would prefer that the wrath of God come on this people instead of repentance but I feel pressured to do my duty anyway and run for election and offer the sinners a chance at redemption so I do it grudgingly like Jonah did in that story.

Considering that I am running a morality campaign against immorality it would seem that God would bless the effort,

and all I need is 50.001 % and I win.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> So you say if I win this election then God is on my side!!!!
> 
> And all I need is the 50.1 % of the vote and I WIN.
> 
> But in my own belief then God only ask me to deliver the message that offers a way out and that I am doing so I see my campaign as a BIG win already.
> 
> The vote is only a physical act and not God acting - in fact the majority of people kind of voted against Jesus when He was here on earth so I do not believe the popular vote is a true reflection of the will of God.
> 
> Even Adolf Hitler got voted in - and you might call that God's work but I do not.
> 
> I feel much like the prophet Jonah link HERE because like Jonah I would prefer that the wrath of God come on this people instead of repentance but I feel pressured to do my duty anyway and run for election and offer the sinners a chance at redemption so I do it grudgingly like Jonah did in that story.
> 
> Considering that I am running a morality campaign against immorality it would seem that God would bless the effort,
> 
> and all I need is 50.001 % and I win.





> Romans 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Yeah. We know you do not believe the Bible, so you don't believe God is in control and places those that are put in a place of authority. Your past actions and most of what you post show that you do not believe the Bible. Someone who believed the Bible would have been man enough to have taken proper care of his child.

It is not moral to preach  lies, and you won't get close to 50% of the vote. You might get 5%, but even that will be a protest against Hoyer and not a vote for you.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Romans 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.





2ndAmendment said:


> Yeah. We know you do not believe the Bible, so you don't believe God is in control and places those that are put in a place of authority.


 I had not realized that was the error.

The governing "authorities" does not mean persons but the demands of gov are the authorities.

Like President Nixon broke the rules and lost his governing power because the person Nixon like every person (as the text says) is subject to the authority of gov.

It is saying the authority of gov and not the authority of the person in gov.

Hitler was only a person and Hitler abused the authority of gov and Hitler destroyed himself and his Country accordingly.

Because the authority of gov is not the authority of the person in gov  authority.

A person in gov must not abuse the authority and when the person does abuse the authority there is repercussions.

That is what Romans 13:1 is talking about.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I had not realized that was the error.
> 
> The governing "authorities" does not mean persons but the demands of gov are the authorities.
> 
> Like President Nixon broke the rules and lost his governing power because the person Nixon like every person (as the text says) is subject to the authority of gov.
> 
> It is saying the authority of gov and not the authority of the person in gov.
> 
> Hitler was only a person and Hitler abused the authority of gov and Hitler destroyed himself and his Country accordingly.
> 
> Because the authority of gov is not the authority of the person in gov  authority.
> 
> A person in gov must not abuse the authority and when the person does abuse the authority there is repercussions.
> 
> That is what Romans 13:1 is talking about.



Wrong again, but what is new.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



JPC sr said:


> I had not realized that was the error.
> 
> The governing "authorities" does not mean persons but the demands of gov are the authorities.
> 
> Like President Nixon broke the rules and lost his governing power because the person Nixon like every person (as the text says) is subject to the authority of gov.
> 
> It is saying the authority of gov and not the authority of the person in gov.
> 
> Hitler was only a person and Hitler abused the authority of gov and Hitler destroyed himself and his Country accordingly.
> 
> Because the authority of gov is not the authority of the person in gov  authority.
> 
> A person in gov must not abuse the authority and when the person does abuse the authority there is repercussions.
> 
> That is what Romans 13:1 is talking about.


 God is not a respecter of persons but only the gov that does right, see text below.

*Acts 10:34-35.*

*34)* Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 

*35)* But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Link HERE.

Of course God is not a dis-respecter of persons either, but when a gov official abuses their authority then that person will pay the penalty.

And the penalty is here and in their present time and not after death.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> That is far from what I said, and you are simply doing the all-or-nothing nonsense.
> 
> Like if Jonah was not swallowed by a BIG fish then Jesus did not exist, which is foolish.



You said “Revelation does not have much credibility.  If one book has no credibility, how can any of them have credibility?  What is your measure for credibility?  What are you using to come to this conclusion?  Your Jonah comparison doesn’t fit because, according to the Bible, Jonah WAS swallowed by the big fish.  And Jesus did exist.  And Revelations is an explanation of the end of times.  It is an all-encompassing book that you can’t just weed out what doesn’t fit into your own personal agenda.  You’re constantly accusing us of misinterpreting the Bible while you are the one that is doing just that.  



JPC sr said:


> If Revelations is a phony then the whole Bible is worthless - and that is not true.
> 
> God is in life / in reality, and God is not the Bible and God is not IN the Bible.



The Bible is an all-inclusive book; from beginning to end.  The Bible isn't about God being in it or God being the Bible.  The Bible was written as an account of God’s purpose not just through history but also what is to come.  You have provided quote after quote from the Bible.  Why would you do this if you believe God is not IN the Bible?  



JPC sr said:


> Protestants have made a false idol out of the Bible and Jesus told us to seek out the truth.



I have seem many interpretations of the Bible and “seeking of the truth” but I have never seen an interpretation such as yours.



JPC sr said:


> When I researched the subject it became really kind of easy to find out the true parts and separating truth from fiction makes the Bible a hundred times more interesting.
> 
> I find the small truths to be so very powerful that the large non-truths to be worthless information anyway.



And I have asked you before: Specifically which parts are true and which parts are fictitious.  What are your sources for telling you this?  You have yet to answer (I mean except for Revelation being a complete fraud).



JPC sr said:


> If the Bible did not exist and maybe destroyed completely in the first century then the salvation of Jesus would still be true and effective and people today would not be any more uninformed then those that believe our loving Father God would burn people in a Hell.



Ah, but the part you ignore in all this is, this exemplifies the power of God to have kept this WORD alive all these years making it the largest faith on earth.  



JPC sr said:


> That false interpretation of God lives in an “infallible book” whiles the true God lives out here in the real world.



Then why do you quote it so much?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> And I have asked you before: Specifically which parts are true and which parts are fictitious.  What are your sources for telling you this?  You have yet to answer (I mean except for Revelation being a complete fraud).


Biblical Criticism link HERE and if you want to learn about it then take the names given in that link to the library St. Mary's County Library, Leonardtown, MD and find the old books.

The Catholic explaination of "Higher Criticism" of the Bible is in the link HERE and particularly go down to the "The Johannine Writings" where the Book of Revelations is called the "Apocalypse" : "The criticism of Apocalypse is still in an immature stage. There is much diversity of view as to its author, the Anglican school inclining to St. John. It has been recently proposed that the book is a Jewish apocalypse retouched by a Christian; so Vischer, Harnack. Nearly all critics acknowledge that there is much apocalyptic element in it, admitting that some of its visions in a veiled manner depict historical situations under the guise of events to come." That Catholic link above does word itself tensely.





PsyOps said:


> Then why do you quote it so much?


 The Bible is still a great book with wonderful messages in it and it does tell about God.

To seek the truth means to dig through un-truths.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> :..
> To seek the truth means to dig through un-truths.



There are no untruths in the Bible like there are in your posts and the man-made stuff you prefer to God's word.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Biblical Criticism link HERE and if you want to learn about it then take the names given in that link to the library St. Mary's County Library, Leonardtown, MD and find the old books.
> 
> The Catholic explaination of "Higher Criticism" of the Bible is in the link HERE and particularly go down to the "The Johannine Writings" where the Book of Revelations is called the "Apocalypse" : "The criticism of Apocalypse is still in an immature stage. There is much diversity of view as to its author, the Anglican school inclining to St. John. It has been recently proposed that the book is a Jewish apocalypse retouched by a Christian; so Vischer, Harnack. Nearly all critics acknowledge that there is much apocalyptic element in it, admitting that some of its visions in a veiled manner depict historical situations under the guise of events to come." That Catholic link above does word itself tensely. The Bible is still a great book with wonderful messages in it and it does tell about God.
> 
> To seek the truth means to dig through un-truths.



You are the type that wants to find fault in everything; something to criticize.  You will go to great lengths to prove that, on a bright sunny day, the sky is not blue.  Some things just are.  I have learned to accept that in God’s Word.  You have not.  This contrarianism isn’t just within these religious discussions.  This is your way within everything.  

And the arrogance in all this is that you seem to have found yourself believing you know more of the truth than God; that somehow you are going to disprove God as the ultimate truth; that there are flaws in his Word.  You have convinced yourself that not even God is able to inspire His own Word through others and bring that truth to us.

There is only one truth.  You either accept it or you don’t.  

You don’t.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> You are the type that wants to find fault in everything; something to criticize.  You will go to great lengths to prove that, on a bright sunny day, the sky is not blue.  Some things just are.  I have learned to accept that in God’s Word.  You have not.  This contrarianism isn’t just within these religious discussions.  This is your way within everything.
> 
> And the arrogance in all this is that you seem to have found yourself believing you know more of the truth than God; that somehow you are going to disprove God as the ultimate truth; that there are flaws in his Word.  You have convinced yourself that not even God is able to inspire His own Word through others and bring that truth to us.
> 
> There is only one truth.  You either accept it or you don’t.
> 
> You don’t.


 Well I take criticism too, and I even like criticism, and criticizing is both negative and positive and I like both ways because I want the hard truths and not just the comfortable pretty words.

The Bible can take criticism too, so can God, and Jesus takes criticizing, and in fact we all dish it out too. 

I criticize when I feel it is called for, and the Bible has its own words of criticism, as does God and Jesus criticize others in both positive and in negative ways.

Those that built their foundation on sand takes great effort to keep their houses from falling down.

But for those seeking the fuller truths then there is never just one truth because that way one gets stuck.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> But for those seeking *the fuller truths* then there is never just one truth because that way one gets stuck.



This sentence proves you are not interested in the truth.  You are only interested in the "truth" that you are able to define for yourself.  You are attempting to go beyond the truth and redefine it as something else.  In this case "the FULLER TRUTH".  What the heck is the "fuller truth"?  The truth is simply that; "THE TRUTH".  It can’t be fuller than what it already is?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> This sentence proves you are not interested in the truth.  You are only interested in the "truth" that you are able to define for yourself.  You are attempting to go beyond the truth and redefine it as something else.  In this case "the FULLER TRUTH".  What the heck is the "fuller truth"?  The truth is simply that; "THE TRUTH".  It can’t be fuller than what it already is?


 It deffinately is best when one can define the truth(s) them-self.

The fact is that some people (like PsyOps, and 2A) claim they know the "truth" and they shut out any corrections.

Many people and Churches teach about Jesus but do not teach the message that Jesus taught.

Jesus did NOT give the simple message to believe in Himself and be saved and the Bible was not even written at that time.

The message that Jesus brought and not a message about Jesus.

A new book called the "Scandalous Gospel of Jesus" is telling about that same message the Jesus taught link HERE. 

The answer to "what is the fuller truth?" is that is the truth discovered after one moves out of their rut.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> It deffinately is best when one can define the truth(s) them-self.
> 
> The fact is that some people (like PsyOps, and 2A) claim they know the "truth" and they shut out any corrections.
> 
> Many people and Churches teach about Jesus but do not teach the message that Jesus taught.



And you CLAIM to know the truth too.  Problem is you have everyone telling you that you have it wrong, yet you remain in denial.  Your perception is EVERYONE out there is wrong and JPC is right.  



JPC sr said:


> Jesus did NOT give the simple message to believe in Himself and be saved and the Bible was not even written at that time.



This shows you can’t even make sense out of it yourself.  I can’t even make sense out of this statement.  Are you claiming that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not write their Gospels?  Are you claiming they were not actually there with Jesus?  Are you claiming that, because they did not write their witness of Christ, at the time He was alive, that it’s not valid?  What is your point here, other than to disclaim the Bible (the same Bible you conveniently quote over and over)?



JPC sr said:


> The message that Jesus brought and not a message about Jesus.
> 
> A new book called the "Scandalous Gospel of Jesus" is telling about that same message the Jesus taught



What the heck have we been talking about in this thread?  We have been discussing salvation.  Not Jesus, THE MAN, but the salvation he brought.  THAT *is* His message.  THAT *is* the message you are not getting.  When I go to church I hear that same message.  I don’t hear the preacher talking about how tall Jesus was, and whether he had a beard or if his breath stunk or whether he was attracted to women or not.  I hear the message of His salvation.  Man you have things so twisted around.  And so does this Peter J. Gomes.



JPC sr said:


> The answer to "what is the fuller truth?" is that is the truth discovered after one moves out of their rut.



Well, it doesn’t seem to be working for you.  If you want to know “the fuller truth” you have to know the simple truth first.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> And you CLAIM to know the truth too.  Problem is you have everyone telling you that you have it wrong, yet you remain in denial.  Your perception is EVERYONE out there is wrong and JPC is right.


 Perhaps one might see you and 2A and T_p as speaking for "EVERYONE" but the fact is that the very first post of this thread shows a Christian Bishop and his entire congregation telling the Hell is not real and everyone gets saved.  

Plus there are many other groups and Churches that denounce the barbaric ideals of Hell and Orthodoxies.

So you do not speak for EVERYONE and everyone is not in opposition to me or my beliefs.





PsyOps said:


> This shows you can’t even make sense out of it yourself.  I can’t even make sense out of this statement.  Are you claiming that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not write their Gospels?  Are you claiming they were not actually there with Jesus?  Are you claiming that, because they did not write their witness of Christ, at the time He was alive, that it’s not valid?  What is your point here, other than to disclaim the Bible (the same Bible you conveniently quote over and over)?


 The point is that the written Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, tell about Jesus link as much or even more about the person Jesus then about the message that Jesus was teaching link HERE.

There is a big difference in preaching "about Jesus" and Jesus' own message about the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven.





PsyOps said:


> What the heck have we been talking about in this thread?  We have been discussing salvation.  Not Jesus, THE MAN, but the salvation he brought.  THAT *is* His message.  THAT *is* the message you are not getting.  When I go to church I hear that same message.  I don’t hear the preacher talking about how tall Jesus was, and whether he had a beard or if his breath stunk or whether he was attracted to women or not.  I hear the message of His salvation.


 Jesus did not teach about salvation because Jesus said the people were saved already and just do not know it link HERE, 

what He did teach was the Kingdom of God link because that was His message and not about Himself. 





PsyOps said:


> Man you have things so twisted around.  And so does this Peter J. Gomes.


 See you have to disqualify another person to make your "everybody" but Peter Gomes is just one more of many that see the truths that have been hidden under Orthodoxy.

It is not that I am against "everybody" because it is your kind that must be against anybody ANY-BODY or any person that fails to agree with your violent perception of God.





PsyOps said:


> Well, it doesn’t seem to be working for you.


 It would work better for me if I had not been a screwed up person for my first 30 years and repentance has been slow and difficult for me.   

Considering that I got thrown out of prison as homeless and destitute in 2003 and now I am running for the US Congress then I see some things working well for me - and I thank God for it.





PsyOps said:


> If you want to know “the fuller truth” you have to know the simple truth first.


 I actually agree with this comment completely, except I would make the "truth" plural as one must learn the "simple truths" first and foremost.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ... Hell is not real and everyone gets saved.  ...



Lie. And since it is a lie it does not matter who says it is true since the Bible says it is a lie.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Lie. And since it is a lie it does not matter who says it is true since the Bible says it is a lie.


 Just so happens that I do not see the Bible calling it a lie - as I only see 2A doing that.

In fact I see the Bible showing everyone getting saved and no eternal "Hell" see link HERE.

Our "2A" is not the spokesperson for the Bible, thank God.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> Just so happens that I do not see the Bible calling it a lie - as I only see 2A doing that.
> 
> In fact I see the Bible showing everyone getting saved and no eternal "Hell" see link HERE.
> 
> Our "2A" is not the spokesperson for the Bible, thank God.



The Narrow and Wide Gates
 13"(K)Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 
 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 
A Tree and Its Fruit
 15"Beware of the (L)false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves. 
 16"You will (N)know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 

 17"So (O)every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 

 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 

 19"(P)Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 

 20"So then, you will know them (Q)by their fruits. 

 21"(R)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 

 22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 

 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (U)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



camily said:


> The Narrow and Wide Gates
> 13"(K)Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
> 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
> A Tree and Its Fruit
> 15"Beware of the (L)false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves.
> 16"You will (N)know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
> 
> 17"So (O)every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
> 
> 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
> 
> 19"(P)Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
> 
> 20"So then, you will know them (Q)by their fruits.
> 
> 21"(R)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
> 
> 22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (U)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


 Since you do not give any comment of your own there - then it is hard to tell if you are agreeing with me or trying to say some thing otherwise.

But as for the Bible verses quoted above - many people do get such words confused with meanings of the Orthodox "Hell" and that is not being said there at all.

It saying that people now and on Judgement Day will claim to be with "Christ" and "Christ-ian" and Jesus will tell those that they are not.

The difference there is that Jesus is not the Father God, and Jesus specifically told what the "Father which is in heaven" does to God's enemies link it HERE.

Jesus has ways of telling people now that they are frauds and on Judgement Day Jesus will tell them then that they are fakes but then comes forgiveness and salvation to everyone as the truth is made known and everyone will believe at the Judgement Day and then every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess per Romans 14:11 link it in context HERE.

The problem is in some persons claiming to be with Christ and "Christian" and they are deceived.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Since you do not give any comment of your own there - then it is hard to tell if you are agreeing with me or trying to say some thing otherwise.
> 
> But as for the Bible verses quoted above - many people do get such words confused with meanings of the Orthodox "Hell" and that is not being said there at all.
> 
> It saying that people now and on Judgement Day will claim to be with "Christ" and "Christ-ian" and Jesus will tell those that they are not.
> 
> The difference there is that Jesus is not the Father God, and Jesus specifically told what the "Father which is in heaven" does to God's enemies link it HERE.
> 
> Jesus has ways of telling people now that they are frauds and on Judgement Day Jesus will tell them then that they are fakes but then comes forgiveness and salvation to everyone as the truth is made known and everyone will believe at the Judgement Day and then every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess per Romans 14:11 link it in context HERE.
> 
> The problem is in some persons claiming to be with Christ and "Christian" and they are deceived.



You are the one that is confused. Jesus was plainly saying that not everyone is saved. Those verses are not the only verses where Jesus said that. You are a fraud and are perverted and pervert the word of God, even the portion you say you believe.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Jesus did not teach about salvation because Jesus said the people were saved already and just do not know it link HERE,
> 
> what He did teach was the Kingdom of God link because that was His message and not about Himself.



You don’t know what you’re talking about.  Jesus preached endlessly about salvation, and how we MUST ACCEPT HIM!  It was very much about HIM.  Here:



> For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life… John 3:16



EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES JPC!  In other words you must make the choice to believe.  You have to actually do something.  BELIEVE!



> Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."… John 3:3





> "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, 3 you will not enter the kingdom of heaven”… Matthew 18:3



YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.  BECOME LIKE CHILDREN.  In other words, become innocent like children.  YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.



> Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me… John 14:6



YOU CANNOT GO TO HEAVEN ACCEPT THROUGH JESUS!  Refer back to Joh 3:16.  YOU MUST DO SOMETHING!  YOU MUST BELIEVE!



> But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God… John 1:12



WHICH MEANS YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.  YOU MUST ACCEPT CHRIST!  



> You must know, my brothers, that through him forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, (and) in regard to everything from which you could not be justified under the law of Moses, in him every believer is justified… Acts 13:38-39



IN HIM EVERY BELIEVER IS JUSTIFIED.  IN OTHER WORDS YOU MUST BELIEVE.  YOU MUST BE A BELIEVER.  THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE DO NOT GET IN.

The New Testament is ALL about salvation.  THAT IS ALL IT IS ABOUT… OUR SALVATION THROUGH BELIEVING IN CHRIST.  Your implication that it is not about that shows your complete and conscious lack of understanding of this basic concept.



JPC sr said:


> It would work better for me if I had not been a screwed up person for my first 30 years and repentance has been slow and difficult for me.



I wish this hadn't happened to you too.  I believe you would think with a lot more clarity.  From this standpoint I do pray for you.



JPC sr said:


> I actually agree with this comment completely, except I would make the "truth" plural as one must learn the "simple truths" first and foremost.



The truth is simply that... THE TRUTH.


----------



## Marie

PsyOps said:


> EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES .


 
I take it one step forward and thats to allow him lordship to your life complete surrender. Thats the hardest part!

Anything else is an attempt to salvation on our terms and is no salvation at all.
We are to evaluate ourselves on a regular basis
Check this out
By John Mcauthur

http://home.md.metrocast.net/coiac/Dale.mp3


----------



## Xaquin44

Complete surrender?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> You don’t know what you’re talking about.  Jesus preached endlessly about salvation, and how we MUST ACCEPT HIM!  It was very much about HIM.  Here:
> 
> EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES JPC!  In other words you must make the choice to believe.  You have to actually do something.  BELIEVE!
> 
> YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.  BECOME LIKE CHILDREN.  In other words, become innocent like children.  YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.
> 
> YOU CANNOT GO TO HEAVEN ACCEPT THROUGH JESUS!  Refer back to Joh 3:16.  YOU MUST DO SOMETHING!  YOU MUST BELIEVE!
> 
> WHICH MEANS YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.  YOU MUST ACCEPT CHRIST!
> 
> IN HIM EVERY BELIEVER IS JUSTIFIED.  IN OTHER WORDS YOU MUST BELIEVE.  YOU MUST BE A BELIEVER.  THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE DO NOT GET IN.
> 
> The New Testament is ALL about salvation.  THAT IS ALL IT IS ABOUT… OUR SALVATION THROUGH BELIEVING IN CHRIST.  Your implication that it is not about that shows your complete and conscious lack of understanding of this basic concept.
> 
> I wish this hadn't happened to you too.  I believe you would think with a lot more clarity.  From this standpoint I do pray for you.
> 
> The truth is simply that... THE TRUTH.


 All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.

On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.

It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.
> 
> On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.
> 
> It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.


 
I recomened studying Genesis, Abraham had faith and therefore believed Gods promises. He didnt need proof before he obeyed. By the way he came from a family of Idol worshippers.

*[SIZE=+2]"W[/SIZE]ithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that be is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6). It is a requirement, not just a suggestion, that we have faith! If we are to please God, we must believe that He is - that He exists and is the Creator of all things and the One who rewards those who diligently seek Him.*

After Thomas personally saw Jesus miraculously appear in a room where he and other apostles were assembled. behind closed doors, and was able to feel with his own hands the holes that were pierced in Jesus hands and side, only then did he believe. Jesus replied "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: *Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed* (Jn. 20:29).

The writer of Hebrews wrote, "Now faith is the substance [realization] of things hoped for, the evidence [confidence] of things not seen" (11:1). In other words, faith is truly believing in and being fully confident of the things God promises. That's how we have to go to God, believing all things.

Not making them up as we go! 

Christ gave us the model. If Christ isnt your lord he isnt your savior.
Listen to the sermon,  Wide is the way and narrow is the gate.
Matthew 7:21-23: 
"*Not everyone* who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall *enter* the kingdom of heaven, but *he who does the will of My Father in heaven*. Many will say to Me in *that day*, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, '*I never knew you*; depart from Me, *you who practice lawlessness!*'"

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:15-16

"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:23 Those goats that have ears that cannot hear are condemned already. Only God's children can hear His voice, and only His sheep can and do respond.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.
> 
> On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.
> 
> It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.


So explain the unpardonable sin, denouncing the Holy Ghost which is excatly what your theory does. If the sin is unpardonable, and the wages of sin are death???


----------



## PsyOps

Marie said:


> I take it one step forward and thats to allow him lordship to your life complete surrender. Thats the hardest part!
> 
> Anything else is an attempt to salvation on our terms and is no salvation at all.
> We are to evaluate ourselves on a regular basis
> Check this out
> By John Mcauthur
> 
> http://home.md.metrocast.net/coiac/Dale.mp3



One step at a time with this guy.  One step at a time.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.
> 
> On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.
> 
> It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.



This belief makes everything Jesus did a waste of time.  In fact, given your take, Jesus wasn't even necessary to have come to this earth.  If God was going to let us into heaven anyway, why would we need Jesus?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> So explain the unpardonable sin, denouncing the Holy Ghost which is excatly what your theory does.


 The unpardonable sin link HERE may not be forgiven but not forgiven does not mean punishment because Jesus paid the full punishment completely. 

I do not like the idea of blanket forgiveness anyway, because I do not even forgive myself for my own pass sins even after I have repented of the sins big time, so I see no logic in forgiveness for most cases.

I can see forgiving mistakes and forgiving accidents, forgiving stupidity and ignorance, as we can do those, but other then those there is no real need to forgive any sin at all since the punishment is paid in full for everyone. 

The cross paid the penalty for all sin but it does not forgive nor forget and I do not see why anyone wants forgiveness anyway.

By repenting and making amends we cover over the sin and replace wrongdoing with the rightness, so forgiveness is only needed for the sins made out of ignorance.





Marie said:


> If the sin is unpardonable, and the wages of sin are death???


 It clearly says that "death" does NOT mean "eternal life" link it HERE.

So if sin means death then that is not eternal *life* in Hell.

First people die to sin - then - life eternal.  

No conditions and the punishment has already been paid in full.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> This belief makes everything Jesus did a waste of time.  In fact, given your take, Jesus wasn't even necessary to have come to this earth.  If God was going to let us into heaven anyway, why would we need Jesus?


  It is Jesus that needs us.

We are the children of God and we are very important indeed.

Each and every person is a valuable asset to God and not even one will be lost or forgotten.

*John 3:16 KJV:* 
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

On Judgement Day then everyone will believe and not even one rotten soul will be lost.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> It is Jesus that needs us.



Once again you prove how lost you are; how backwards your thinking is.  Jesus DOES NOT need us.  We need Jesus.  But since you believe this perhaps you could explain how it is Jesus needs us?



JPC sr said:


> We are the children of God and we are very important indeed.
> 
> Each and every person is a valuable asset to God and not even one will be lost or forgotten.



I haven’t said one thing about how important or unimportant we are.  But even John the Baptist said “Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones.”  In other words, you have to DO SOMETHING to become children of God.  By merely being a human does not earn your way into heaven.



JPC sr said:


> John 3:16 KJV:
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



You provided a verse disproves your point:  “THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH SHALL NOT PERSIH…”  Meaning that if you do not BELIEVE you WILL perish.  You have to DO SOMETHING.  BELIEVE.  You have to make that choice.  I am amazed that you don’t see this right in the very verse you provided.



JPC sr said:


> On Judgement Day then everyone will believe and not even one rotten soul will be lost.



If everyone is saved there is no reason to even have a Judgment Day.  What is God to judge us by if we are already saved and going to heaven?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> I recomened studying Genesis, Abraham had faith and therefore believed Gods promises. He didnt need proof before he obeyed. By the way he came from a family of Idol worshippers.
> 
> *[SIZE=+2]"W[/SIZE]ithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that be is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6). It is a requirement, not just a suggestion, that we have faith! If we are to please God, we must believe that He is - that He exists and is the Creator of all things and the One who rewards those who diligently seek Him.*
> 
> After Thomas personally saw Jesus miraculously appear in a room where he and other apostles were assembled. behind closed doors, and was able to feel with his own hands the holes that were pierced in Jesus hands and side, only then did he believe. Jesus replied "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: *Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed* (Jn. 20:29).
> 
> The writer of Hebrews wrote, "Now faith is the substance [realization] of things hoped for, the evidence [confidence] of things not seen" (11:1). In other words, faith is truly believing in and being fully confident of the things God promises. That's how we have to go to God, believing all things.
> 
> Not making them up as we go!
> 
> Christ gave us the model. If Christ isnt your lord he isnt your savior.
> Listen to the sermon,  Wide is the way and narrow is the gate.
> Matthew 7:21-23:
> "*Not everyone* who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall *enter* the kingdom of heaven, but *he who does the will of My Father in heaven*. Many will say to Me in *that day*, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, '*I never knew you*; depart from Me, *you who practice lawlessness!*'"
> 
> "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
> But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:15-16
> 
> "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:23 Those goats that have ears that cannot hear are condemned already. Only God's children can hear His voice, and only His sheep can and do respond.


 The confusion is because God and the Bible are refering to two (2) different subjects.

First is the life here and now on earth and the punishment is here and now on earth link it HERE.

The punishments come here and now and not after dying.

Jesus and the Bible is telling us how to live in faith and rightness in this world here and now.

While you are presenting those verses as if they apply after death and they do not.

The war is now in this life and not after death.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> The confusion is because God and the Bible are refering to two (2) different subjects.
> 
> First is the life here and now on earth and the punishment is here and now on earth link it HERE.
> 
> The punishments come here and now and not after dying.
> 
> Jesus and the Bible is telling us how to live in faith and rightness in this world here and now.
> 
> While you are presenting those verses as if they apply after death and they do not.
> 
> The war is now in this life and not after death.



I’m trying to figure something out  .  If all we have to do to be saved is be born a human, why did God feel a need to send a *Savior* to save us?  What’s the point?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> I’m trying to figure something out  .  If all we have to do to be saved is be born a human, why did God feel a need to send a *Savior* to save us?  What’s the point?


  The word "Savior" is a term mostly used to say God as savior and not Jesus, and "savior" is mostly found in the Old Testiment text being for David or some prophets being "saved" from their physical enemies link HERE. 

The word "savior" is not even found in the King James version but it was put into newer versions like the NIV to satisfy the beliefs of Orthodoxy.

Jesus is called "Christ" (the Christ) or "Messiah" meaning the "annointed one" and calling Jesus the "Savior" is not really a Bible term. 

When Jesus came He changed the course of humanity because people were headed down an evil and destructive way with the Roman Empire taking over from the Greek Hellenism and subsequently by the process started by Christ the entire world would eventually change its direction so I still see it as fair to say that Jesus was the "savior" of this world but that was in a physical and very real sense of "saving" and not some mystical salvation that only happens after people die.

People do still need "saved" today but not to be saved from the mystical "Hell". People need saved from addictions, and saved from ignorance, and saved from injustices, and violence, etc. People need saved now in this present wicked life time and not after they die.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> The word "Savior" is a term mostly used to say God as savior and not Jesus, and "savior" is mostly found in the Old Testiment text being for David or some prophets being "saved" from their physical enemies link HERE.



God is often referred to as the savior, so you are partly right and partly wrong.  It is actually both.



> “For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.” … Luke 2:11





JPC sr said:


> The word "savior" is not even found in the King James version but it was put into newer versions like the NIV to satisfy the beliefs of Orthodoxy.
> 
> Jesus is called "Christ" (the Christ) or "Messiah" meaning the "annointed one" and calling Jesus the "Savior" is not really a Bible term.



Definitely Wrong!



> For unto you is born this day in the city of David a *Saviour*, which is Christ the Lord.… Luke 2:11 (KJV)





> And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the *Saviour* of the world… John 4:42 (KJV)





> Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a *Saviour*, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins… Acts 5:31 (KJV)





> Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a *Saviour*, Jesus… Acts 13:23 (KJV)





> For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the *saviour* of the body… Eph 5:23 (KJV)





> For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the *Saviour*, the Lord Jesus Christ… Phil 3:20 (KJV)





> But is now made manifest by the appearing of our *Saviour* Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel… 2 Tim 1:10 (KJV)





> To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our *Saviour*… Titus 1:4





> Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our *Saviour Jesus Christ*… Titus 2:13 (KJV)



Do you need more verses to convince you?



JPC sr said:


> When Jesus came He changed the course of humanity because people were headed down an evil and destructive way with the Roman Empire taking over from the Greek Hellenism and subsequently by the process started by Christ the entire world would eventually change its direction so I still see it as fair to say that Jesus was the "savior" of this world but that was in a physical and very real sense of "saving" and not some mystical salvation that only happens after people die.



Wrong again!



> Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water *and of the Spirit*, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God… John 3:5 (KJV)





JPC sr said:


> People do still need "saved" today but not to be saved from the mystical "Hell". People need saved from addictions, and saved from ignorance, and saved from injustices, and violence, etc. People need saved now in this present wicked life time and not after they die.



Christ came to witness about what we will be given AFTER WE DIE.  He explained what we needed to do to get into heaven, not what we need to do to avoid pain on this earth.  If that was the case He would have never said:



> … If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me… Mat 16:24 (KJV)



He warned his disciples this:



> Remember the word I spoke to you, 'No slave is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.  And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me… John 15:20-21



I have known many devout Christians that suffered and died from cancer and other diseases.  How do you account for this?  Answer… They receive their reward in heaven, not on this earth.  Christians don’t seek peace and safety and reward on this earth.  They seek eternal life in heaven:



> Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man.  Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, *your reward will be great in heaven*. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way… Luke 6:22-23



Psalm 23 says: “The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want…”  In other words, we do not have wants and desires of this earth, we want what is of God.  So receiving salvation has nothing to do with being saved from horrible things on this earth.

Jesus told the rich man:



> Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."  At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" ... Mark 10:21



God does not want us to look towards reward and be saved from pain and anguish on this earth.  He wants to us to desire these things in heaven.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> The word "Savior" is a term mostly used to say God as savior and not Jesus, and "savior" is mostly found in the Old Testiment text being for David or some prophets being "saved" from their physical enemies link HERE.


 
Yo James, As PsyOps pointed out, it is in the 1611 King James version Strongs # G4990 is used 24 times, of which all are in the New Testament.
Also its in the orignal Greek, I looked Σωτήρ, Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός 
sōtēr
_so-tare'
_From G4982; a _deliverer_, that is, God or Christ: - saviour.
In case that dosent suit in the Aramaic the word savior is used as well!

your refrence that you referred to is Strongs #  H3467 used 15 times in the old testament
ישׁע
yâsha‛
_yaw-shah'
_A primitive root; properly to _be_ _open_, _wide_ or _free_, that is, (by implication) to _be_ _safe_; causatively to _free_ or _succor: - _X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.
 
You missed Bible study Thursday night, and it's ashame to, as we studied  Biblical hermeneutics and how FALSE teachers use "twisted scripture." 
Context, context context!
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE 


LoL


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> God is often referred to as the savior, so you are partly right and partly wrong.  It is actually both.
> 
> 
> God does not want us to look towards reward and be saved from pain and anguish on this earth.  He wants to us to desire these things in heaven.


  Okay, I freely admit that I was mistaken about the word "Savior" being in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.

I had looked up "*savior*" in the online concordance and I never even thought about the old english wording and spelling so it is spelled with a "u" as "*Saviour*" in the KJV.

So this was my error and I did it.

But of course, my particular point that Jesus came to save mankind in the here and now on earth is still true and correct, and it was not directed at saving people from some "pits of a Hell" after people die.

I was wrong on the first part but the latter part was correct.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> But of course, my particular point that Jesus came to save mankind in the  here and now on earth


 
Thats absurd, Show me that verse or anything close, you wont find it.

Lets start at the begining
 BIBLE=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

Salvation
*H3444 is used 65 times and ONLY in the old testament!
*ישׁוּעה
y<SUP>eshû‛âh
_yesh-oo'-aw
_Feminine passive participle of H3467; something _saved_, that is, (abstractly) _deliverance_; hence _aid_, _victory_, _prosperity: - _deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

*H3467 only used twice and in the old testament!
*ישׁע
yâsha‛
_yaw-shah'
_A primitive root; properly to _be_ _open_, _wide_ or _free_, that is, (by implication) to _be_ _safe_; causatively to _free_ or _succor: - _X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.

*H3468 Used 31 times and only in the old testament!
*ישׁע ישׁע
yesha‛ yêsha‛
_yeh'-shah,_ _yay'-shah
_From H3467; _liberty_, _deliverance_, _prosperity: - _safety, salvation, saving.
*G4991 used 41 times and only in the New testament
*σωτηρία
sōtēria
_so-tay-ree'-ah
_Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; _rescue_ or _safety_ (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

*G4992 used 5 times only in the new Testament!
*σωτήριον
sōtērion
_so-tay'-ree-on
_Neuter of the same as G4991 as (properly concrete) noun; _defender_ or (by implication) _defence:_ - salvation.
</SUP>


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> Thats absurd, Show me that verse or anything close, you wont find it.
> 
> Lets start at the begining
> BIBLE=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
> 
> *Salvation*


  I am not saying that there is no salvation because everybody does get saved in the end.

But Jesus and the Bible teach us how to live now (saved now) from the wickedness of this world now.

Jesus gave the example in wearing a crown of thorns in defying this wicked world.

Here is a text from the old Testement *2 Samuel 22:3* link HERE which says :

"3 my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, 
       my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation. 
       He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior— 
       from violent men you save me."

So note that it says "salvation" and "savior" from violence happening here on earth in that present time.

And a New Testiment text *1 Timothy 4:9-11* link HERE which says:

"9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 
 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 
 11 These things command and teach."

And see it says "Saviour of all men" all mankind (means male and female) and then "specially those that believe" because those that believe get saved here and now from the wickedness of this world and not after death.

Salvation is easy after death because Jesus paid the penalty in full, but for here and now we have works to do.

Faith without works is dead, link.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> I am not saying that there is no salvation because everybody does get saved in the end.





JPC sr said:


> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
> In general you tend to gravitate to the Old Testament and reject the New Testament where the gospel resides.<o></o>
> Why did Christ come to earth as a man? He had been here numerous times before in the Old Testament. Just to teach us to play nice? <o></o>
> <o></o>
> Mat 6:33 but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you. <o></o>
> Luk 12:29  `And ye--seek not what ye may eat, or what ye may drink, and be not in suspense, <o></o>
> Luk 12:30 for all these things do the nations of the world seeks after, and your Father hath known that ye have need of these things; <o></o>
> Luk 12:31  but, seek ye the reign of God, and all these things shall be added to you. <o></o>
> Here are two verses that say not to be concerned of the necessities of life but to have your thoughts on eternal matters!<o></o>
> <o></o>
> How about these verses<o></o>
> <o></o>
> Mar 4:18  "And these are the [seeds] having been sown into the thorns: the ones hearing the word, <o></o>
> Mar 4:19 and the anxieties [or, cares] of this age [fig, the present life] and the deception of riches and the desires [or, lusts] concerning the remaining [things] entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. <o></o>
> <o></o>
> Those *deliberately* teaching a false Gospel will be punished (cf. Gal. 1:9; Mt. 23:16, 33!; 2 Tim.4:3-4, etc.). <o></o>
> <o></o>
> Gal 1:6 I marvel [or, am amazed] that you* are so quickly turning away [or, apostatizing] from the One having called you* in [or, by] the grace of Christ to a different gospel, <o></o>
> Gal 1:7 which is not another [Gospel], except there are some, the ones having disturbed you* and desiring to distort the Gospel of Christ. <o></o>
> Gal 1:8  _But_ even if we or an angel out of heaven shall himself be proclaiming a gospel to you* besides [or, contrary to] what we proclaimed to you*, let him be accursed [Gr., anathema]! <o></o>
> Gal 1:9  As we have forewarned and now say again, if anyone shall be proclaiming a gospel to you* besides [or, contrary to] what you* received, let him be accursed! <o></o>
> <o></o>
> Mat 23:14  "How horrible it will be to you*, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you* shut off the kingdom of the heavens before the people, for _you*_ do not enter, nor do You* allow the ones entering to enter. <o></o>
> Mat 23:15  "How horrible it will be to you*, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you* travel over the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte [or, convert to Judaism], and whenever it happens, you* make him twice as much a son of hell [Gr., gehenna] [as] you* [are]. <o></o>
> <o></o>
> 2Ti 4:3  For there will be a time when they themselves will not put up with sound teaching, _*but_ according to their own lusts *they will heap up teachers to themselves, itching in the ear [fig., craving to hear what they want to hear], <o></o>
> 2Ti 4:4  and on the one hand they will turn away the ear from the truth, on the other hand they will be turned aside to myths. <o></o>
> <o></o>
> 1Co 2:6  But we speak wisdom among the perfect [or, mature], but wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, the ones being destroyed. <o></o>
> <o></o>
> 1Co 2:14  and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned; <o></o>
> <o></o>
> James you’re a smart guy, but a lot like a blind man yielding a sword. (Dangerous to yourself and others!) You can put your trust in Herbert W Armstrong, or believe a heart that is deceitfully wicked, but having knowledge of the condition of the human heart, its more prudent to examine yourself. <o></o>
> Unpack that Bible, blow the dust off of it, and pray that God will open your eyes to his word, and have at it. Its possible to read scripture and not get much out of it. But if you come at it prayerfully seeking Gods will, It will speak to you!


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> In general you tend to gravitate to the Old Testament and reject the New Testament where the gospel resides.
> 
> Why did Christ come to earth as a man? He had been here numerous times before in the Old Testament. Just to teach us to play nice?
> 
> 
> Mat 6:33 but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you. <o></o>
> Luk 12:29  `And ye--seek not what ye may eat, or what ye may drink, and be not in suspense, <o></o>
> Luk 12:30 for all these things do the nations of the world seeks after, and your Father hath known that ye have need of these things; <o></o>
> Luk 12:31  but, seek ye the reign of God, and all these things shall be added to you. <o></o>
> Here are two verses that say not to be concerned of the necessities of life but to have your thoughts on eternal matters!<o></o>
> <o></o>
> How about these verses<o></o>
> <o></o>
> Mar 4:18  "And these are the [seeds] having been sown into the thorns: the ones hearing the word, <o></o>
> Mar 4:19 and the anxieties [or, cares] of this age [fig, the present life] and the deception of riches and the desires [or, lusts] concerning the remaining [things] entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. <o></o>
> <o></o>
> Those *deliberately* teaching a false Gospel will be punished (cf. Gal. 1:9; Mt. 23:16, 33!; 2 Tim.4:3-4, etc.). <o></o>
> 
> 
> James you’re a smart guy, but a lot like a blind man yielding a sword. (Dangerous to yourself and others!)


  It seems to me that the difference here between what I am saying compared to you and Orthodoxy is that you can pray and be saved and then God will give you (Christians) the works thereafter, but I am saying that we must do the works of salvation first or else the value of being "saved" is greatly deminished.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> It seems to me that the difference here between what I am saying compared to you and Orthodoxy is that you can pray and be saved and then God will give you (Christians) the works thereafter, but I am saying that we must do the works of salvation first or else the value of being "saved" is greatly deminished.


Thats called works based rightousness, and is practiced by one group of Christians.

Isa 64:6 But we are al as an vncleane thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy ragges, and we all doe fade as a leafe, and our iniquities like the wind haue taken vs away.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> Thats called works based rightousness, and is practiced by one group of Christians.
> 
> Isa 64:6 But we are al as an vncleane thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy ragges, and we all doe fade as a leafe, and our iniquities like the wind haue taken vs away.


 That is just twisting things around into a confusing mess,

and that is not correct.

My previous post told it the right way.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> Thats called works based rightousness, and is practiced by one group of Christians.


 I say "Marie" might have it right here above.

That one group is the real Christians, because they do the righteous works.

There is no other righteousness without works.

Claiming one as righteous because Jesus paid the price but the one has no righteous works then that claim is not true.

One does not need to do evil or do wrong but just do nothing and therefore no right works and that is not a follower of Christ.

Such a one will be saved in the end, but that one without works is absolutely worthless in this world.


----------



## clevalley

JPC sr said:


> Yes, and "hell" meant the grave.
> :



Sorry - you're off base - Hell's translation in Hebrew is sheol - sheol is where dead people go in Hebrew, this is assumed "the grave" - but in today's translation, it would be the grave.

But supporting hell is a bad place with fire and screams, here you go;

Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to *go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched*." The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.

Revelation 20:13-15: "...*death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."*

 Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Brimstone is sulphur. In order for sulphur to form a lake, it must be molten. Thus, its temperature must be at or below 444.6 °C or 832 °F.

or you can research a bit from here, but you might need a Bible...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.
> 
> On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.
> 
> It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.



You are totally wrong. The Bible says so, but you only believe in the gospel according to JPC, Sr.

After a person dies, there are no second chances. The time for acceptance of Jesus as Savior and Lord is in this life.

On the judgment day, every knee will bow and and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, but it will be too late for salvation for those who have had the chance in this life.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> It is Jesus that needs us.
> 
> We are the children of God and we are very important indeed.
> 
> Each and every person is a valuable asset to God and not even one will be lost or forgotten.
> 
> *John 3:16 KJV:*
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 
> On Judgement Day then everyone will believe and not even one rotten soul will be lost.



You are so spiritually wrong it is surprising that light even shines on you. On judgment day everyone will believe, but it will be too late for most according to the Bible. I'll believe the Bible over the gospel of JPC, Sr. every time.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



clevalley said:


> Sorry - you're off base - Hell's translation in Hebrew is sheol - sheol is where dead people go in Hebrew, this is assumed "the grave" - but in today's translation, it would be the grave.


 Okay, so we do agree that the old Testement "hell" was only the common grave and not a firey torture of people.

Rock on.  


clevalley said:


> But supporting hell is a bad place with fire and screams, here you go;
> 
> Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
> 
> Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to *go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched*." The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.
> 
> Revelation 20:13-15: "...*death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."*
> 
> Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Brimstone is sulphur. In order for sulphur to form a lake, it must be molten. Thus, its temperature must be at or below 444.6 °C or 832 °F.
> 
> or you can research a bit from here, but you might need a Bible...


 Fire is a possitive symbol for the Holy Spirit and fire stands for the word of God and fire never ever means torturing people in a Hell because God loves His enemies and love does not ever means burn for all eternity link HERE.

God sent Jesus with a wonderful message of redemption and forgiveness and salvation for all of mankind.

Not even one nasty rotten sheep will be left or lost as we all will be saved unconditionally.  

Even if you do call it "death of the soul" or "dead to God" the Apostle Paul in the Bible called it "dead to sin" and ONLY eternal life comes otherwise link HERE. 

The "second death" in the "lake of fire" means "death to sin" and thereafter salvation for the worst of the worst sinners so then everybody gets saved.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Okay, I freely admit that I was mistaken about the word "Savior" being in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.
> 
> I had looked up "*savior*" in the online concordance and I never even thought about the old english wording and spelling so it is spelled with a "u" as "*Saviour*" in the KJV.
> 
> So this was my error and I did it.
> 
> But of course, my particular point that Jesus came to save mankind in the here and now on earth is still true and correct, and it was not directed at saving people from some "pits of a Hell" after people die.
> 
> I was wrong on the first part but the latter part was correct.



You are mistaken about a whole bunch of things.  You completly dismissed everything else I posted in regard to Jesus' references to God's Kingdom and Jesus stating that His Kingdom is not of this earth and that we should give up all worldly possessions and take up the cross and follow Him.  What does that mean?  It means we would suffer the same fate.  We would suffer as humans on this earth.  You still didn't answer to how it is so many Christians suffer from cancer and other diseases on this earth?  If Jesus came for the here and now how can there be so many Christians suffering HERE AND NOW?  Answer... your assertion is false.  Our reward is obtained in heaven.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> You are mistaken about a whole bunch of things.  You completly dismissed everything else I posted in regard to Jesus' references to God's Kingdom and Jesus stating that His Kingdom is not of this earth and that we should give up all worldly possessions and take up the cross and follow Him.  What does that mean?  It means we would suffer the same fate.  We would suffer as humans on this earth.  You still didn't answer to how it is so many Christians suffer from cancer and other diseases on this earth?  If Jesus came for the here and now how can there be so many Christians suffering HERE AND NOW?  Answer... your assertion is false.  Our reward is obtained in heaven.


 You post like a spoiled pampered brat.

Christ died on the cross, so you think your Christians are to miss out on that kind of fun? I say not. 

Life is hard on everybody and in the next life it will be even harder.

You ask for a "reward" in Heaven, there is no reward, no prize, we are only to get more living.

Everlasting life is an adventure, and drama, and a lot of hard work, and that is the reward - we get more and more stuff to do. 

It is like a child growing up, and expecting that becoming an adult then life gets easier, and it does not.

As an adult the child must mature and life gets more complicated and more challenging and far more demanding.

Mankind are just children now, and on Judgement Day we grow up fast, and for those of us that prepare now will lead the way.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> You post like a spoiled pampered brat.
> 
> Christ died on the cross, so you think your Christians are to miss out on that kind of fun? I say not.
> 
> Life is hard on everybody and in the next life it will be even harder.
> 
> You ask for a "reward" in Heaven, there is no reward, no prize, we are only to get more living.
> 
> Everlasting life is an adventure, and drama, and a lot of hard work, and that is the reward - we get more and more stuff to do.
> 
> It is like a child growing up, and expecting that becoming an adult then life gets easier, and it does not.
> 
> As an adult the child must mature and life gets more complicated and more challenging and far more demanding.
> 
> Mankind are just children now, and on Judgement Day we grow up fast, and for those of us that prepare now will lead the way.



Pampered brat?    Oh........ I mean........  

You haven't paid one bit of attention to anything I have written.  I was clear on the suffering Christians would go through in this life.  

The Bible doesn't say one thing about the next life being harder; in fact it says just the opposite.  You enjoy making up your own facts just to keep 

Read this very carefully from Revelation 21:



> I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them as their God.  *He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain*, for the old order has passed away."  The one who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then he said, "Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true."  He said to me, "They are accomplished. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. *To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water*.  The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.  *But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death*."



Time to come clean now… Are you a Christian or a Satan Worshiper?  You show all the signs of the latter.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> Read this very carefully from Revelation 21: [Link]


 The text you quote are revealing:


PsyOps said:


> Verse 4, "He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, for the old order has passed away."


 This says no more pain and that shuts out the possiblily of Hell because the Orthodox deffinition of Hell is painful.





PsyOps said:


> Verse 8, "But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."


  It says "second death" and not eternal life in Hell.

Death does not mean living.

The Apostle Paul explained that the second death means dead to sin link HERE and so all those negative things quoted above from Revelations 21:8, will all die with the sinner and the person will come out of the purifying fire as a new creature in Christ. 

Everybody gets saved on the great Judgement Day.





PsyOps said:


> Time to come clean now… Are you a Christian or a Satan Worshiper?  You show all the signs of the latter.


 Even Satan the Devil gets saved in the end.

Such as human demons like Adolf Hitler, then once the power is taken away from Satan and taken away from evil acting people - then they become harmless and God does love His enemies, link HERE.

They will still be upset and weeping with nashing of teeth for a long while but eventually it will work out fine.


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> The text you quote are revealing:
> This says no more pain and that shuts out the possiblily of Hell because the Orthodox deffinition of Hell is painful.


Sorry Charlie, you have to look at *when* this is being said to take place.
By that point we will be able to see and think like Him, and rejoice over love ones in Hell, because its JUST. We will marvel over how JUST God is we will no longer have the same rationalization at that point that we do now!

People will no longer worry about JPC at that point, as with clear concious they did everything they could to get him to understand when there was still time!
The fact that you REJECT GOD and his WORD because it dosent meet with your aproval, you will one day recieve the justice for that rejection of the Holy Spirit ( The unpardonable Sin) and all the other souls that you confused and took with you, with the FALSE TEACHING of everyone gets saved in the end.

TRUE FRIENDS WILL LOVE YOU ENOUGH TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH EVEN IF IT HURTS! RATHER A BRUISED EGGO NOW, THEN AN ETERNITY IN HELL!

Here is the way Mathew Henry explains it!
*The covenant, interest, and relation, that there are now between God and his people, will be filled up and perfected in heaven. They shall be his people; their souls shall be assimilated to him, filled with all the love, honour, and delight in God which their relation to him requires, and this will constitute their perfect holiness; and he will be their God: God himself will be their God; his immediate presence with them, his love fully manifested to them, and his glory put upon them, will be their perfect happiness; then he will fully answer the character of the relation on his part, as they shall do on their part.*

The clocks ticking, how much time do you really have left? Are you really willing to gamble with the most valuable thing you have?

*"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"--Mark 8:36* 
*"For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?"--Luke 9:25*​


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> Sorry Charlie, you have to look at when this is being said to take place.
> By that point we will be able to see and think like Him, *and rejoice over love ones in Hell*, because its JUST. We will marvel over how JUST God is we will no longer have the same rationalization at that point that we do know!


 That comment really knocks me out.

You have a God and Hell where you will "rejoice" over the vanquished.

This leaves me almost speachless.

It remind me of people acting Godly but by not having love (Charity in KJV) then you have nothing link HERE 1 Corinthians 13.

I tell you and all my choice, that I will burn in Hell with my comrades before I would ever bow to a tyrant and monster of a God as Orthodoxy claims.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> The text you quote are revealing:
> This says no more pain and that shuts out the possiblily of Hell because the Orthodox deffinition of Hell is painful.  It says "second death" and not eternal life in Hell.



Wait a minute... You wrote here:



JPC sr said:


> Life is hard on everybody and in the next life it will be even harder.



So what is it... do we live in eternal bliss or are our next lives going to "be even harder?"  Once again you make it up as you go along.



JPC sr said:


> Death does not mean living.



Really?  Aw man... REALLY?  Are you sure?  Let me think about this a minute   ... Death... does... not... mean... living.  

I don't know man.  I'm not sure if I believe this.  

Okay, I've thought about it... I have to say this has to be one of the most rediculous statements I've ever read.



JPC sr said:


> The Apostle Paul explained that the second death means dead to sin link HERE and so all those negative things quoted above from Revelations 21:8, will all die with the sinner and the person will come out of the purifying fire as a new creature in Christ.



Wrong again, Paul was referring to those who are saved.  Those who have accepted Christ.  You have to read the whole passage and not selectively cut out what doesn't fit your distorted belief:



> Know ye not, that so many of us as were *baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death*? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life... Romans 6:3-4



And the important part that you conveniently left out:



> Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, *that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin*. For he that is dead is freed from sin... Romans 6:6-7



Being dead from sin means we were baptized into Christ's death and would sin no more.  This does not mean when we ALL die we also die from sin.  It means that we died in the death of Christ and became new.  YOU MUST ACCEPT CHRIST IN ORDER FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.



JPC sr said:


> Everybody gets saved on the great Judgement Day. Even Satan the Devil gets saved in the end.



Once again you completely ignored this passage:



> The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever... Rev 20:10





JPC sr said:


> Such as human demons like Adolf Hitler, then once the power is taken away from Satan and taken away from evil acting people - then they become harmless and God does love His enemies, link HERE.
> 
> They will still be upset and weeping with nashing of teeth for a long while but eventually it will work out fine.



I have no idea what Hitler's fate is.  It's up to God.  I have no idea what your fate is.  I know you have admitted we do not have souls.  This convinces me that you are NOT a believer.  Just my observation.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> So what is it... do we live in eternal bliss or are our next lives going to "be even harder?"  Once again you make it up as you go along.


 It is no confusion of mine.

You are claiming "eternal bliss" and not I, and I counter your incorrect claim by saying in the Kingdom of God there will be much righteous work to do.

So the confusion comes from comparing your wrong belief with my correct interpretation.





PsyOps said:


> Really?  Aw man... REALLY?  Are you sure?  Let me think about this a minute   ... Death... does... not... mean... living.
> 
> I don't know man.  I'm not sure if I believe this.
> 
> Okay, I've thought about it... I have to say this has to be one of the most rediculous statements I've ever read.


 You and Orthodoxy claim that death means "enternal life" in Hell, and I point out that it does not link HERE Romans 6:23.

It says death is the punishment and eternal life is the gift, so Hell is not the punishment.

So death does not mean eternal living in Hell as you and the Orthodox are mis-claiming.

And since Jesus paid the punishment for everyone then everyone will die to sin and everyone gets saved. 

It really is very simple yet overwhelming too.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> It is no confusion of mine.
> 
> You are claiming "eternal bliss" and not I, and I counter your incorrect claim by saying in the Kingdom of God *there will be much righteous work to do*.



Yup, completely dismissing this:



> And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  *And he said unto me, It is done*. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end… Rev 21:3-6





JPC sr said:


> You and Orthodoxy claim that death means "enternal life" in Hell, and I point out that it does not Romans 6:23.



No!  Pay attention… The second death is the final death.  It is not to be compared to what we call dying, as in the flesh (the heart stopping, no brain activity, the body decaying, etc…).  It is a spiritual death.  It is eternal damnation of the soul (the thing you have admitted you do not believe exists).  A complete and everlasting separation from God.  To be separated from God means to be dead to God.  And since you don’t believe God gave each of us a soul how could you possibly understand this.



JPC sr said:


> It says death is the punishment and eternal life is the gift, so Hell is not the punishment.
> 
> So death does not mean eternal living in Hell as you and the Orthodox are mis-claiming.



The sentence of eternal damnation in the “pool of fire” is the death.  This is the eternal separation from God.  This is what sin means.  Separation from God.  When one decides to not accept Christ they accept their life of sin and will die in that sin and remain separated from God forever.  You throw these terms out there like: death, and punishment, and love, and Orthodoxy as if they had real meaning the in the context of this discussion when in reality you are only using them as term intended to distort the Word of God.



JPC sr said:


> And since Jesus paid the punishment for everyone then everyone will die to sin and everyone gets saved.
> 
> It really is very simple yet overwhelming too.



If it's so simple then why aren't you getting it?  

Jesus paid the punishment for everyone that believes.  You must do something; take action.  You must believe.  It is not by just being born as a human that we are saved.  It says it over and over in the bible that you have to take the ACTION to believe in order to be saved and not face eternal damnation.    



> For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation *to every one that believeth*; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek… Romans 1:16



Again, you are setting up your own rules so you don’t have to make that commitment.  Life is not formed around your convenience.  But you sure think it is.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> Yup, completely dismissing this:
> 
> And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
> 
> Rev 21:3-6


  Having righteous work to do does not mean or include crying, sorrow or pain.

You might see hardships in worldly work but it is not in righteous jobs.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> Having righteous work to do does not mean or include crying, sorrow or pain.



When God says it's finished, that means it's finished.  There is no more "righteous work" to do.  



JPC sr said:


> You might see hardships in worldly work but it is not in righteous jobs.



As usual, your grammar leaves me wondering what the heck you're talking about.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> When God says it's finished, that means it's finished.  There is no more "righteous work" to do.


 So I guess this will be another surprise waiting for your kind.

So you are of the Orthodox belief in a Heaven of bliss and do nothing for all eternity while others burn in Hell and praise your God.

My God gives me an exciting life now, and promises of adventures in the next life, and no bliss for me. 


PsyOps said:


> As usual, your grammar leaves me wondering what the heck you're talking about.


 I know and this happens to me a lot.

It just feels so repulsive for me to talk down to others that I do not do that very often. :shrug:


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> It is a spiritual death.  It is eternal damnation of the soul (the thing you have admitted you do not believe exists).  A complete and everlasting separation from God.  To be separated from God means to be dead to God.
> 
> The sentence of eternal damnation in the “pool of fire” is the death.  This is the eternal separation from God.  This is what sin means.  Separation from God.  When one decides to not accept Christ they accept their life of sin and will die in that sin and remain separated from God forever.
> 
> If it's so simple then why aren't you getting it?


 I have heard that claim a lot lately about being "separated from God" and it is impossible to be correct or for it to happen.

If one sparrow (bird) falls to the ground then God knows it, link HERE, and we are more valuable than birds.

Our very life and heart beat and breath of air are all from God and there is no such thing as being separate from God.

No one can be lost in "Hell" or lost (separated) from God by sin or by anything.

Perhaps the mistake comes from the Orthodox belief that one accepts Jesus as their savior and that starts a relationship with God and that misses the reality.

Everybody already has a personal relationship with the real God whether anyone likes it or not.

It is just that some people have a negative relationship, or a shallow relationship with God, but everyone is connected to the real God and it is totally impossible to be separate or separated from the truth which is God.

We people do not have any choice if we want it or not, or if one accepts it or not.

No one is left out, no one is lost, and everyone gets saved.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> So I guess this will be another surprise waiting for your kind.
> 
> So you are of the Orthodox belief in a Heaven of bliss and do nothing for all eternity while others burn in Hell and praise your God.
> 
> My God gives me an exciting life now, and promises of adventures in the next life, and no bliss for me.



Your god is not my God.  This much is obvious.  The Revelation 21 is clear that Heaven and Earth will be new and God will dwell with His people.  It is quite obvious there are those that will be saved and live in this place with God and others will not.



JPC sr said:


> It just feels so repulsive for me to talk down to others that I do not do that very often.



Yeah, right.  

If you're so repulsed by talking down to me OH MIGHTY AND ARROGANT ONE, then why do you bother?


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> Your god is not my God.  This much is obvious.  The Revelation 21 is clear that Heaven and Earth will be new and God will dwell with His people.  It is quite obvious there are those that will be saved and live in this place with God and others will not.


 This is fine by me.

You have your beliefs and I maintain my beliefs and that is that.

In my opinion it matters more how one acts and what they do, then what the person believes.


PsyOps said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> If you're so repulsed by talking down to me OH MIGHTY AND ARROGANT ONE, then why do you bother?


 Because I care.


----------



## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> This is fine by me.
> 
> You have your beliefs and I maintain my beliefs and that is that.
> 
> In my opinion it matters more how one acts and what they do, then what the person believes.



You have to have both.  Read James 2:26



> "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."



How about Romans 3:27-30



> What occasion is there then for boasting?  It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith.  For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.  Does God belong to Jews alone? Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith.



What this means is it doesn't matter what you do if you don't have faith; a belief in Christ; be born again.



JPC sr said:


> Because I care.



Someone that cares is not repulsed.  Someone that cares does not place themselves above others as you have:



JPC sr said:


> It just feels so repulsive *for me to talk down to others* that I do not do that very often.



This is an arrogant and self-serving mentality that shows very little care, if any.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> You have to have both.  Read James 2:26
> 
> How about Romans 3:27-30
> 
> What this means is it doesn't matter what you do if you don't have faith; a belief in Christ; be born again.
> 
> Someone that cares is not repulsed.  Someone that cares does not place themselves above others as you have:
> 
> This is an arrogant and self-serving mentality that shows very little care, if any.


 It is okay by me if you believe that way as it is all irrelevant to the point.

Sure people need to do right in this world but most people are lost and do not even know what right from wrong is.

So a few exceptional persons will do right and like a shephard will lead the ignorant sheep into a better place.

Every person will go through the fire of God to get clean and purified.

And on Judgement Day the truth will be known and everyone will believe then and everyone gets saved.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Rock on.    Fire is a possitive symbol for the Holy Spirit and fire stands for the word of God and fire never ever means torturing people in a Hell because God loves His enemies and love does not ever means burn for all eternity link HERE.


Still telling lies. While fire is a symbol of the Holy Spirit it is not used in that way when the lake of fire is written about in the Bible.


JPC sr said:


> God sent Jesus with a wonderful message of redemption and forgiveness and salvation for all of mankind.


Redemption and forgiveness for all those who believe and accept. It is not blanket coverage.


JPC sr said:


> Not even one nasty rotten sheep will be left or lost as we all will be saved unconditionally.


Wrong.





JPC sr said:


> Even if you do call it "death of the soul" or "dead to God" the Apostle Paul in the Bible called it "dead to sin" and ONLY eternal life comes otherwise link HERE.
> 
> The "second death" in the "lake of fire" means "death to sin" and thereafter salvation for the worst of the worst sinners so then everybody gets saved.


No. "Lake of fire" does not mean "death to sin" and if you could read with a modicum of understanding you would know that. Quit posting lies.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> You post like a spoiled pampered brat.
> 
> Christ died on the cross, so you think your Christians are to miss out on that kind of fun? I say not.
> 
> Life is hard on everybody and in the next life it will be even harder.
> 
> You ask for a "reward" in Heaven, there is no reward, no prize, we are only to get more living.
> 
> Everlasting life is an adventure, and drama, and a lot of hard work, and that is the reward - we get more and more stuff to do.
> 
> It is like a child growing up, and expecting that becoming an adult then life gets easier, and it does not.
> 
> As an adult the child must mature and life gets more complicated and more challenging and far more demanding.
> 
> Mankind are just children now, and on Judgement Day we grow up fast, and for those of us that prepare now will lead the way.



You are the arrogant brat.

And there will be no growing on Judgment Day. The time of growth and believing will be over; those subject to the judgment will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.

You are so out of touch with reality I doubt you could lead anyone anywhere.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ....
> 
> Everybody gets saved on the great Judgement Day. Even Satan the Devil gets saved in the end.
> 
> Such as human demons like Adolf Hitler, then once the power is taken away from Satan and taken away from evil acting people - then they become harmless and God does love His enemies, link HERE.
> 
> They will still be upset and weeping with nashing of teeth for a long while but eventually it will work out fine.



LIES!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> I tell you and all my choice, that I will burn in Hell with my comrades before I would ever bow to a tyrant and monster of a God as Orthodoxy claims.



You may get that chance if you keep telling lies.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> So I guess this will be another surprise waiting for your kind.
> 
> So you are of the Orthodox belief in a Heaven of bliss and do nothing for all eternity while others burn in Hell and praise your God.
> 
> My God gives me an exciting life now, and promises of adventures in the next life, and no bliss for me.
> I know and this happens to me a lot.
> 
> It just feels so repulsive for me to talk down to others that I do not do that very often. :shrug:



I guarantee you are not talking down to anyone. Everyone realizes you are mentally deluded and operate in a haze of confusion. You are only superior in your own mind, but your ignorance of the Bible, Truth, God's Laws, and even man's laws is evident to all who have ever read your posts.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I have heard that claim a lot lately about being "separated from God" and it is impossible to be correct or for it to happen.
> 
> If one sparrow (bird) falls to the ground then God knows it, link HERE, and we are more valuable than birds.
> 
> Our very life and heart beat and breath of air are all from God and there is no such thing as being separate from God.
> 
> No one can be lost in "Hell" or lost (separated) from God by sin or by anything.
> 
> Perhaps the mistake comes from the Orthodox belief that one accepts Jesus as their savior and that starts a relationship with God and that misses the reality.
> 
> Everybody already has a personal relationship with the real God whether anyone likes it or not.
> 
> It is just that some people have a negative relationship, or a shallow relationship with God, but everyone is connected to the real God and it is totally impossible to be separate or separated from the truth which is God.
> 
> We people do not have any choice if we want it or not, or if one accepts it or not.
> 
> No one is left out, no one is lost, and everyone gets saved.


No one is not loved by God, and God does know even when a sparrow falls. But, just as a father loves his son as he dies in the gas chamber for disobeying man's law, God will righteously judge those that do not accept His gift of salvation in this life and they will be cast into the lake of fire.





> Matthew 13:24-30, 13:36-43
> 
> 24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
> 
> 25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
> 
> 26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
> 
> 27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
> 
> 28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
> 
> 29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
> 
> 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
> 
> ...
> 
> 36Then He left the crowds and went into the house And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
> 
> 37And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
> 
> 38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
> 
> 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
> 
> 40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
> 
> 41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
> 
> 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> 43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.



Better stop lying Jimmy. Seems you may be gathered with the tares if you don't find the Truth.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> And on Judgement Day the truth will be known and everyone will believe then and everyone gets saved.



Judgment Day is too late for salvation. Now is the acceptable time of salvation.


> 2 Corinthians 6:2for He says,
> "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,
> AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU."
> Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"--



Everyone does not get saved.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> LIES!


 I never lie, and I stand by all of my post, and all of mine are true and mine are correct.


----------



## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> Seems you may be gathered with the tares if you don't find the Truth.


  I went to Church today and discused this very subject of the "tares" link HERE, 

Matthew 13:40-43 KJV:

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 

 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 

 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
===

and concluded from that last verse #43 that it says "then" as in first the sinners are cleaned and purified in the fire and "then" they become righteous and everyone gets saved.

This was a ne revelation of truth today, in that every person must in one way or another go through the fire of God to get saved and as such everyone one of us must go through the righteous fires of God as each and all of us do indeed get saved in the end.

So 2A and I now might have a slight but twisted agreement here.

First the sinners burn and THEN they shine says Jesus in the text above.


----------



## Marie

Who are the elect and why does scripture mention them?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
H972<o></o>
בּחיר<o></o>
bâchîyr<o></o>
_baw-kheer'<o></o>_
From H977; _select: - _choose, chosen one, <o></o>
<o></o>
Mat 19:28 - (7) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the (q) regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. <o></o>
(Not Everyone there is no provision for all!)<o></o>
<o></o>
Mat 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and (l) shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. <o></o>
<o></o>
Mat 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the (r) four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. <o></o>
<o></o>
Luk 18:7 - And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though (d) he bear long with them? <o></o>
Rom 8:33 - (27) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] (p) God that justifieth. <o></o>
<o></o>
Rom 11:22 - (11) Behold therefore the (x) goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] (y) goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Note Some get cut off)<o></o>
<o></o>
NON-ELECT, n. [L. non, not, and elected.] One who is not elected or chosen to salvation.<o></o>
<o></o>
Rom 11:25 - (13) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your (b) own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be (c) come in. <o></o>
<o></o>
We talked about this also the heart being deceitfully wicked and believing our own lies!<o></o>
<o></o>
1Co 1:18 - For the (m) preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the (n) power of God. <o></o>
Php 4:3 - And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the (c) book of life. <o></o>
<o></o>
Why keep a book if everyones names in it?<o></o>
2Th 2:13 - (10) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through (p) sanctification of the Spirit and (q) belief of the truth: <o></o>
(Not all believe, not all are chosen)<o></o>
<o></o>
2Ti 2:19 - (11) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that (g) nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (NOT Everyone)<o></o>
<o></o>
Heb 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of (s) many;(16) and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. See the word many, not the word all!<o></o>
<o></o>
1Pe 1:2 - (1) Elect according to the (a) foreknowledge of God the Father, through (b) sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. <o></o>
*<o></o>*
*<o></o>*
<o></o>


----------



## Marie

JPC sr said:


> I went to Church today and discused this very subject of the "tares" link HERE,


 
Mat 13:3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
Mat 13:4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. <o></o>
Mat 13:5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, <o></o>
Mat 13:6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. <o></o>
Mat 13:7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. <o></o>
Mat 13:8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. <o></o>
Mat 13:9 He who has ears, let him hear." <o></o>
Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" <o></o>
*Mat 13:11* And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. <o></o>
Mat 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. <o></o>
Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. <o></o>
Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. <o></o>
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' <o></o>
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. <o></o>
Mat 13:17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. 
<o></o> 
*Why Discus those blinded and deaf to the truth?  Why mention that all but one type fall away? These represent different type of people claiming the name of Christ. Only one is the true Christian that was known to him ( the elect) before the foundation of the world the rest are posers!*
*<o></o>*


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


>


  I say we need to try to remain non violent here.

I also say that Jesus was and is non-violent and Jesus will always be non violent.

In the Bible violence and evil are synonymous link HERE.

The concept of "Hell" means committing a giant act of violence against our fellow man, and so Hell is the opposite of Jesus' message.


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



JPC sr said:


> I went to Church today and discused this very subject of the "tares" link HERE,
> 
> Matthew 13:40-43 KJV:
> 
> 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
> 
> 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
> 
> 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
> ===
> 
> and concluded from that last verse #43 that it says "then" as in first the sinners are cleaned and purified in the fire and "then" they become righteous and everyone gets saved.
> 
> This was a ne revelation of truth today, in that every person must in one way or another go through the fire of God to get saved and as such everyone one of us must go through the righteous fires of God as each and all of us do indeed get saved in the end.
> 
> So 2A and I now might have a slight but twisted agreement here.
> 
> First the sinners burn and THEN they shine says Jesus in the text above.


 I feel I must add to the message above since it is such a powerful revelation.

The word "then" in verse 43 means "there-after" as in first the sins are burned and there-after (then) comes the righteous person out of that purifying fire.

And see that in verse 42 it says "furnace of fire" while the Book of Revelations calls it the "lake of fire" because "fire" means the cleaning of the Holy Spirit and the "furnace or lake" have little meaning at all.

In fact if Jesus was actually talking about burning people in the Orthodox version of "Hell" (which is not real) then Jesus might have said instead of "tares in a funace" He would more certainly have said that people absolutely must do exactly as He commands or else He would torture and torment us all in real flames of real fire - but Jesus did not say that at all.

Jesus told us to love our enemies just like the Father God does link HERE and not burn people in torturous fire for ever and ever.

So here is the hard proof from Jesus and the Bible that everybody gets saved whether anyone likes it or not.


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## wineo

With all your knowledge and self education, why don't you have a job?  Seems you are capeable enough to have one.

God dosen't like lazy or moochers either.  You suck the system dry with your disability, which you don't have, since you can type, and preach why not work for the lord, and get off these forums.


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## PsyOps

JPC sr said:


> I say we need to try to remain non violent here.
> 
> I also say that Jesus was and is non-violent and Jesus will always be non violent.
> 
> In the Bible violence and evil are synonymous link HERE.
> 
> The concept of "Hell" means committing a giant act of violence against our fellow man, and so Hell is the opposite of Jesus' message.



Throughout the Bible God has used man to go to war for Him.  God has destroyed cities (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah) in very violent ways.  God destroyed the entire world with a flood.  Can't get more violent than that.  Revelations (which you have admitted has no credibility) is a book revolving around the violent end of this world.  Jesus used violence to drive the merchants from His temple.  God is the final judge and will not hesitate to cleanse His creation through whatever means He sees fit (and He has ascribed His means clearly in the Bible).  

You are in denial of these facts because you want to fit God into your little convenient mold.  A mold that allows you to continue living whatever sort of lifestyle you are living while accepting belief systems (life Islam, Satanism and Atheism) that stand contrary to the God Yahweh, Jehovah, the God of the living Christ Jesus.  You have rejected the book Revelation, you have admitted you do not believe we have a soul, you believe everyone gets saved even though you wrote this:



JPC sr said:


> Those that do not seek out the full truths will indeed be left behind in darkness, and will be greatly surprised on our Judgement Day.



You do not believe the Bible is the word of God:



JPC sr said:


> Claiming the Bible is the "word of God" as 2A does above and it is NOT.



You falsely believe that even Satan gets saved:



JPC sr said:


> Even Satan the Devil gets saved in the end.



When it's clear he does not:



> The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever... Rev 20:10



You take every possible stance to ensure your soul is saved.  It's a stance of convenience for your sake.  Your opinion on this issue only serves you.  It does not serve the truth.  You're not interested in the truth, you are interested in what will satisfy your conscience.

I think I have provided enough that shows your unstable and inconsistent view on the Bible; which you will obviously deny.  But it is what it is.

Bye Bye


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



wineo said:


> With all your knowledge and self education, why don't you have a job?  Seems you are capeable enough to have one.
> 
> God dosen't like lazy or moochers either.  You suck the system dry with your disability, which you don't have, since you can type, and preach why not work for the lord, and get off these forums.


 I am trying to get a job as the new US Congress person for 5th District.

Just 50.1 % and I win, so vote for me and then I will be closer to having a job.

And 2 of my 3 issues for disability came from job related injuries.

I will probably need some provisions even if I get elected because I will still be injured and disabled even if I become a Congress Representative.

This Forum is nothing like an actual job, but I do get to "preach for God" on here.


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> I think I have provided enough that shows your unstable and inconsistent view on the Bible; which you will obviously deny.  But it is what it is.
> 
> Bye Bye


  I am happy with my beliefs as I see mine are the correct and true interpretation.

You keep your beliefs and that works for me. 

I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else.

But I do offer the real correct interpretation of God and the scriptures for anyone that wants more.


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## Marie

You know we have no right to get upset with JPC, you wouldnt fault a blind man for being blind or a deaf man for being deaf. So we shouldnt fault him, but we do still need to correct his false statements that may lead others astray.

I guess we also need to remember that God used both Pharaoh and Nebakanezer to accompolish his will without either of them ever intending to serve God, perhaps thats JPC lot to spread falsehoods that others correct so the gospel can be told correctly to those that have a heart thats open to the truth.

 It's very disapointing not to be able to get through to him, but its not our job but the work of the Holly Spirit which may or may not ever happen. The best we can do is pray for him that God will soften his heart and open his eyes to the truth.


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> You know we have no right to get upset with JPC, you wouldnt fault a blind man for being blind or a deaf man for being deaf. So we shouldnt fault him, but we do still need to correct his false statements that may lead others astray.


 But you do accept that the spiritually blind and deaf and those giving false statements and leading others astray - such one(s) must burn in the pits of Hell.

If that is not getting "upset" or particlarly "faulting" them (and me) by condemning to Hell, then it is just cold blooded hatred.





Marie said:


> The best we can do is pray for him that God will soften his heart and open his eyes to the truth.


 But I do know the Orthodox version of "truth".

That Jesus and the saints and believers are to go to happiness and bliss in Heaven, while us sinners and defiant ones burn in the fires of Hell.

My eyes are wide open to that and I reject it completely. And I honestly denounce it all as false and incorrect.

Everybody gets saved and not even one rotten awful sinner gets lost.


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



PsyOps said:


> Throughout the Bible God has used man to go to war for Him.  God has destroyed cities (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah) in very violent ways.  God destroyed the entire world with a flood.  Can't get more violent than that.  Revelations (which you have admitted has no credibility) is a book revolving around the violent end of this world.  Jesus used violence to drive the merchants from His temple.  God is the final judge and will not hesitate to cleanse His creation through whatever means He sees fit (and He has ascribed His means clearly in the Bible).
> 
> You are in denial of these facts because you want to fit God into your little convenient mold.


 I do not deny any of that but I do interpret it more correctly.

Since God is going to ressurect all those people and He has already worked out their full and complete salvation, then it is not really an act of violence at all.

We could call it mercy killing as that would be more accurate indeed.


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## 2ndAmendment

JPC is a liar. He must be a pathological liar since he apparently does not understand that he is lying. 

How he can read scripture and come up with what he believes is inconceivable by anyone who actually reads the Bible. Time and time again people post scripture and he comes up with some off the wall meaning that is so off base that one must wonder if he has any cognitive ability at all.

Jpc is only correct in his own confused mind.


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



2ndAmendment said:


> JPC is a liar. He must be a pathological liar since he apparently does not understand that he is lying.
> 
> How he can read scripture and come up with what he believes is inconceivable by anyone who actually reads the Bible. Time and time again people post scripture and he comes up with some off the wall meaning that is so off base that one must wonder if he has any cognitive ability at all.
> 
> Jpc is only correct in his own confused mind.


 I just want to point out that "2A" is attacking me the messanger while he completely avoids the message and the subject.

That is what the religious leaders did to Jesus when they attacked Jesus to silence His message.


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## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I just want to point out that "2A" is attacking me the messanger while he completely avoids the message and the subject.
> 
> That is what the religious leaders did to Jesus when they attacked Jesus to silence His message.



OK. Let me rephrase. The message you are proclaiming are lies. Better? 

You proclaim a message that tickles the ears instead of proclaiming the Truth. The Bible says people like you will come in the last days, but we know you do not believe the Bible.





> 2 Timothy 4:3-4
> 
> 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
> 
> 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


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## Marie

*He welcomes them to hell*



JPC sr said:


> But you do accept that the spiritually blind and deaf and those giving false statements and leading others astray - such one(s) must burn in the pits of Hell.
> 
> If that is not getting "upset" or particlarly "faulting" them (and me) by condemning to Hell, then it is just cold blooded hatred. But I do know the Orthodox version of "truth".
> 
> That Jesus and the saints and believers are to go to happiness and bliss in Heaven, while us sinners and defiant ones burn in the fires of Hell.
> 
> My eyes are wide open to that and I reject it completely. And I honestly denounce it all as false and incorrect.
> 
> Everybody gets saved and not even one rotten awful sinner gets lost.


 
He welcomes them to hell
Thomas Watson

"The prince of this world." John 16:11
The devil has a kingdom. His throne is set up in the hearts of men. Satan does not care for their purses--but their hearts! Satan's empire is very large. Most people in the world pay tribute to him. 
His kingdom has two characters:
[1] Satan's kingdom is a kingdom of IMPIETY. 
Nothing but sin goes on in his kingdom. Murder and heresy, lust and treachery, oppression and division--are the constant trade driven in his dominions. He is called "the unclean spirit." 
Nothing else but iniquity is propagated in his kingdom.
[2] Satan's kingdom is a kingdom of SLAVERY. 
He makes all his subjects--slaves. The sinner is held captive under the grim tyranny of the devil! 
Satan is a tyrant--and a worse tyrant than any other! Other tyrants do but rule over the body: but Satan rules over the soul! He rides his captives--as we ride upon horses. 
Other tyrants have some pity on their slaves. 
Though they make them work in the galleys; yet they give them food, and let them have their hours for rest. But Satan is a merciless tyrant--who gives his slaves poison instead of food, and hurtful lusts to feed on! 1 Tim 6:9. 
Nor will he let his slaves have any rest--he wearies them out to do his drudgery. "They weary themselves to commit iniquity." Jer 9:5. 
When men have served him to their utmost strength--he welcomes them to hell with fire and brimstone! Thus he is the worst of tyrants.
Men are willing slaves to Satan! They will fight and die for him! Therefore he is not only called "the prince of this world," but "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4), to show what power he has over men's souls. 
O let us pray that "they may come to their senses and escape the Devil's trap, having been captured by him to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:26


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> He welcomes them to hell
> Thomas Watson
> 
> "The prince of this world." John 16:11
> The devil has a kingdom. His throne is set up in the hearts of men. Satan does not care for their purses--but their hearts! Satan's empire is very large. Most people in the world pay tribute to him.
> His kingdom has two characters:
> [1] Satan's kingdom is a kingdom of IMPIETY.
> Nothing but sin goes on in his kingdom. Murder and heresy, lust and treachery, oppression and division--are the constant trade driven in his dominions. He is called "the unclean spirit."
> Nothing else but iniquity is propagated in his kingdom.
> [2] Satan's kingdom is a kingdom of SLAVERY.
> He makes all his subjects--slaves. The sinner is held captive under the grim tyranny of the devil!
> Satan is a tyrant--and a worse tyrant than any other! Other tyrants do but rule over the body: but Satan rules over the soul! He rides his captives--as we ride upon horses.
> Other tyrants have some pity on their slaves.
> Though they make them work in the galleys; yet they give them food, and let them have their hours for rest. But Satan is a merciless tyrant--who gives his slaves poison instead of food, and hurtful lusts to feed on! 1 Tim 6:9.
> Nor will he let his slaves have any rest--he wearies them out to do his drudgery. "They weary themselves to commit iniquity." Jer 9:5.
> When men have served him to their utmost strength--he welcomes them to hell with fire and brimstone! Thus he is the worst of tyrants.
> Men are willing slaves to Satan! They will fight and die for him! Therefore he is not only called "the prince of this world," but "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4), to show what power he has over men's souls.
> O let us pray that "they may come to their senses and escape the Devil's trap, having been captured by him to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:26


 Satan the Devil serves a Godly purpose in this world link HERE.

*1 Corinthians 5:5*, The Apostle Paul said about a sinner:

KJV:  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Satan works hell here on earth to the flesh - *THEN* - everybody gets saved on J-Day.


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## Marie

*Nice try but you didnt do your homework!*



JPC sr said:


> Satan the Devil serves a Godly purpose in this world link HERE.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 5:5*, The Apostle Paul said about a sinner:
> 
> KJV: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> Satan works hell here on earth to the flesh - *THEN* - everybody gets saved on J-Day.


Hey nice try, but were you sleeping last night? Obviously you didnt do all the work to interpurt the veres. Remember the 5 steps?

So as you dont confuse anyone else with this verse taken out of context, heres what it really means.

*1Co 5:5* - To deliver such an one - This was the highest degree of punishment in the Christian church; and we may observe, the passing this sentence was the act of the apostle, not of the Corinthians. To Satan - Who was usually permitted, in such cases, to inflict pain or sickness on the offender. For the destruction - Though slowly and gradually. Of the flesh - Unless prevented by speedy repentance.

<SUP>(5) The one who is excommunicated is delivered to the power of Satan, in that he is cast out of the house of God. 
(c) What it is to be delivered to Satan the Lord himself declares when he says, "Let him be unto thee as a heathen and publican"; (Mat_18:17). That is to say, to be disfranchised and put out of the right and privileges of the city of Christ, which is the Church, outside of which Satan is lord and master. (6) The goal of excommunication is not to cast away the excommunicate that he should utterly perish, but that he may be saved, that is, that by this means his flesh may be tamed, that he may learn to live to the Spirit.

And for the millionth time, only those whose name is written in the lambs book of life will be in heaven, not everyone!And no not everyone name is in there!

</SUP>


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> So as you dont confuse anyone else with this verse taken out of context, heres what it really means.
> 
> *1Co 5:5* - To deliver such an one - This was the highest degree of punishment in the Christian church; and we may observe, the passing this sentence was the act of the apostle, not of the Corinthians. To Satan - Who was usually permitted, in such cases, to inflict pain or sickness on the offender. For the destruction - Though slowly and gradually. Of the flesh - Unless prevented by speedy repentance.
> 
> <SUP>(5) The one who is excommunicated is delivered to the power of Satan, in that he is cast out of the house of God.
> (c) What it is to be delivered to Satan the Lord himself declares when he says, "Let him be unto thee as a heathen and publican"; (Mat_18:17). That is to say, to be disfranchised and put out of the right and privileges of the city of Christ, which is the Church, outside of which Satan is lord and master. (6) The goal of excommunication is not to cast away the excommunicate that he should utterly perish, but that he may be saved, that is, that by this means his flesh may be tamed, that he may learn to live to the Spirit.
> 
> And for the millionth time, only those whose name is written in the lambs book of life will be in heaven, not everyone!And no not everyone name is in there!
> 
> </SUP>


 Both "Marie" and whoever she is quoting has twisted that Bible verse way out of proportion.

What I said in my previous post is correct and true, and I gave a link to the text,

and see in my post I have it short and simple and easy to understand,

because it is easy to understand the Bible - while others try to make the scriptures complicated.


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## Marie

JPC sr said:


> Both "Marie" and whoever she is quoting has twisted that Bible verse way out of proportion.
> 
> What I said in my previous post is correct and true, and I gave a link to the text,
> 
> and see in my post I have it short and simple and easy to understand,
> 
> because it is easy to understand the Bible - while others try to make the scriptures complicated.


 
Well congratts you understand scripture better than John Wesley, Mathew Henery, and the writters of the Geneva Bible.

Like I said you didnt do you homework, the coresponding verse is 
<DIR>*1Ti 1:20* among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 
</DIR>Amazing Hugh?
REMEMBER THE INDUCTIVE METHOD OF STUDING SCRIPTURE?
Examining data to make a conclusion and then an application.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!​*Step One:​*​​Observe the text:
Look at the coresponding verses!
 Who was Paul writting to the church of Corinth, Why to address division & disorder  in the church.
*Step Two: *How wide is the river?
 Not very!​
*Step Three:​*​​What is the principle?
Discipline that without the fellowship/support of other belivers, this mans left alone to face his sin and repent or that Satin would cause an infliction driving him to God and the disclipine of putting someone out of the church.​
*Step Four:​*​​Does the NT change my understanding?
NO​
*Step Five:​*​​Application:
A last resort means of dealing with a church member​


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## 2ndAmendment

Everyone does not get saved. Everyone can, but everyone won't.


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## JPC sr

*The big pic.*



Marie said:


> Well congratts you understand scripture better than John Wesley, Mathew Henery, and the writters of the Geneva Bible.


 This is true but they lived a long time ago and did not have the resources that we have today.

It does not mean they were stupid or such, they just did not have the info available as we do now.


Marie said:


> Like I said you didnt do you homework, the coresponding verse is
> <DIR>*1Ti 1:20* among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
> </DIR>Amazing Hugh?
> 
> *Step Five:* Application:
> A last resort means of dealing with a church member


 The point I made, and that text confirms, is that Satan is performing a necessary task.

Satan teaches the person not to "blaspheme" and then the person gets saved.

That is also the message of Judgement Day, that then everyone will believe and everyone gets saved.


----------

