# Proudly Gay and Ordained?



## trisha

With all the publicity about gay marriage, I ask what's the deal on some religions relaxing about ordained gays and lesbians? Is this something you agree or disagree about?


----------



## Railroad

trisha said:
			
		

> With all the publicity about gay marriage, I ask what's the deal on some religions relaxing about ordained gays and lesbians? Is this something you agree or disagree about?


Homosexuality and lesbianism are an abomination in the eyes of God.  Neither the marriages nor the "clergy" should be accepted by any Chrisitan religion.

Welcome aboard, BTW.


----------



## morganj614

Railroad said:
			
		

> Homosexuality and lesbianism are an abomination in the eyes of God.  Neither the marriages nor the "clergy" should be accepted by any Chrisitan religion.
> 
> Welcome aboard, BTW.



God loves everyone. Good morning, BTW.


----------



## virgovictoria

morganj614 said:
			
		

> God loves everyone. Good morning, BTW.




For the most part, unless angered, I try not to mix into politics or religion.  I won't resign myself to a label or strict adherence to one path of thinking.  I feel that each of us believes or disbelieves in a God, Gods, god, a higher power of powers that are greater than we humans are...  Individuals are spiritual, individuals are religious.  Some are not.  Some have faith.  Some can believe that there lies a goodness in themselves for the sake of humanity and/or for the hopes of eternal peace or because of Christianity and what God gave for our sins.  

With that said, regardless of a person's sexuality, if he or she wants to carry a message of God, a higher power, of Christianity, of spirituality, of peace and serenity then openness of heart and mind and acceptance should be greater than anything else.  Willingness, forgiveness, peace and unity is what I feel it is all about.  If you don't feel that you can be comfortable with a homosexual sharing the gospel, then don't attend their church.  Just don't hinder their desire to spread the message.

As always, my opinion.


----------



## morganj614

virgovictoria said:
			
		

> For the most part, unless angered, I try not to mix into politics or religion.  I won't resign myself to a label or strict adherence to one path of thinking.  I feel that each of us believes or disbelieves in a God, Gods, god, a higher power of powers that are greater than we humans are...  Individuals are spiritual, individuals are religious.  Some are not.  Some have faith.  Some can believe that there lies a goodness in themselves for the sake of humanity and/or for the hopes of eternal peace or because of Christianity and what God gave for our sins.
> 
> With that said, regardless of a person's sexuality, if he or she wants to carry a message of God, a higher power, of Christianity, of spirituality, of peace and serenity then openness of heart and mind and acceptance should be greater than anything else.  Willingness, forgiveness, peace and unity is what I feel it is all about.  If you don't feel that you can be comfortable with a homosexual sharing the gospel, then don't attend their church.  Just don't hinder their desire to spread the message.
> 
> As always, my opinion.



Well said, I don't plan on argueing and God, Buddha, Allah et al., they do not put conditions on love.


----------



## Railroad

morganj614 said:
			
		

> God loves everyone. Good morning, BTW.


True statement - He loves everyone, including the worst of the worst, but that doesn't mean He accepts our sins.


----------



## morganj614

Railroad said:
			
		

> True statement - He loves everyone, including the worst of the worst, but that doesn't mean He accepts our sins.



So I am going to hell for all my sins? According to the way I was brought up, all sins are forgiven as we are born of sin. Anyway, I am outta this thread, I hate to think there are conditions on one's spirituality or holiness. Have a beautiful day!


----------



## vraiblonde

virgovictoria said:
			
		

> If you don't feel that you can be comfortable with a homosexual sharing the gospel, then don't attend their church.


Seems simple, doesn't it? 

It's like  - what was it, the Episcopalians? - that ordained that gay minister and everybody was up in arms.  But the Episcopalian powers that be approved it.  So if you, as a member of the Episcopalian faith, don't like it, the logical thing to do would be change religious persuasions, because you are no longer at one with that brand of Christianity.


----------



## Railroad

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Seems simple, doesn't it?
> 
> It's like - what was it, the Episcopalians? - that ordained that gay minister and everybody was up in arms. But the Episcopalian powers that be approved it. So if you, as a member of the Episcopalian faith, don't like it, the logical thing to do would be change religious persuasions, because you are no longer at one with that brand of Christianity.


Right answer.

But the question was asking me how *I* felt about gay clergy, and I answered it truthfully.  There is a Bible verse that explicitly says that gay sexuality is an abomination before the Lord, but I can't find it at the moment.  

You don't think I'm trying to change anyone's position on this, do you?  The law of averages says that sooner or later in life, someone will ask a question and not like the answer.  I can't help that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

morganj614 said:
			
		

> So I am going to hell for all my sins? According to the way I was brought up, all sins are forgiven as we are born of sin. Anyway, I am outta this thread, I hate to think there are conditions on one's spirituality or holiness. Have a beautiful day!


I will not speak to other religions. I live a way of life which is a relationship with Jesus. I am a Christian. If you are a Christian, then you must believe the word of God, the Bible. If you don't, then what do you place your faith on? That is a rhetorical question. That said, the Bible states that homosexual acts are an abomination to God. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, Genesis 18:20 - 19:29. These entire cities were destroyed by God for the sin of homosexual behavior.

   God loves everyone, but He hates sin. Period. You can be forgiven all your sins, but that requires repentance. True repentance is the turning away from *all* sin including sexual sin. It doesn't matter whether in human wisdom people don't believe that there are conditions on salvation; the Bible says there are.
*



			Matthew 7:21-23
		
Click to expand...

*


> <sup id="en-NASB-23338">21</sup>"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.     <sup id="en-NASB-23339">22</sup>"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23340">23</sup>"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


 This is just one of many places. I used this one since it is the New Testament and is a quote from Y'shua (Jesus.). I do this because many want to dismiss the account of Sodom and Gomorrah as being from the Old Testament. There are references to homosexual behavior being not acceptable in the New Testament as well.


*



			1 Corinthians 6:8-10
		
Click to expand...

*


> <sup id="en-NASB-28476">8</sup>On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.     <sup id="en-NASB-28477">9</sup>Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28478">10</sup>nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


 Seems pretty clear cut to me.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Seems simple, doesn't it?
> 
> It's like - what was it, the Episcopalians? - that ordained that gay minister and everybody was up in arms. But the Episcopalian powers that be approved it. So if you, as a member of the Episcopalian faith, don't like it, the logical thing to do would be change religious persuasions, because you are no longer at one with that brand of Christianity.


Or, as many have done, reject the Episcopal organization and consider it an anathema. The Bible also confirms that as we get closer to the last day, many will fall away from the Truth. The Episcopal organization has done just that by rejecting God's word for political correctness.


----------



## virgovictoria

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I will not speak to other religions. I live a way of life which is a relationship with Jesus. I am a Christian. If you are a Christian, then you must believe the word of God, the Bible. If you don't, then what do you place your faith on? That is a rhetorical question. That said, the Bible states that homosexual acts are an abomination to God. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, Genesis 18:20 - 19:29. These entire cities were destroyed by God for the sin of homosexual behavior.
> 
> God loves everyone, but He hates sin. Period. You can be forgiven all your sins, but that requires repentance. True repentance is the turning away from *all* sin including sexual sin. It doesn't matter whether in human wisdom people don't believe that there are conditions on salvation; the Bible says there are.
> * This is just one of many places. I used this one since it is the New Testament and is a quote from Y'shua (Jesus.). I do this because many want to dismiss the account of Sodom and Gomorrah as being from the Old Testament. There are references to homosexual behavior being not acceptable in the New Testament as well.
> 
> 
> Seems pretty clear cut to me.*


*

I do not know Bible verse, but my experience has been that it is the desire of the Lord to spread the word of the Lord.  If the message can be reached by more people via a person they are comfortable with - NOT based on their homosexuality, but, just so happens to be homosexual in addition to being religious, wouldn't the greater good lie in spreading the message?  To reach more people and spread faith?*


----------



## ceo_pte

Railroad said:
			
		

> Homosexuality and lesbianism are an abomination in the eyes of God.  Neither the marriages nor the "clergy" should be accepted by any Chrisitan religion.
> 
> Welcome aboard, BTW.




 

But I do think the church & people should treat them with love.  Allow them to attend services, etc....


----------



## Railroad

Leviticus chapter 18 (excerpt)

_20:_ And you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, and defile yourself with her. 
_21:_ You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 
_22:_ You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 
_23:_ And you shall not lie with any beast and defile yourself with it, neither shall any woman give herself to a beast to lie with it: it is perversion. 
_24:_ "Do not defile yourselves by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am casting out before you defiled themselves; 

Thanks, Penn!


----------



## vraiblonde

Let me point out that Leviticus is in the Old Testament.  If you are going to take the teachings in the Old Testament as literal gospel, then you must also believe that a woman is unclean for 40 days after having a baby - longer if that baby is a girl. You must also believe that a rape victim must marry her attacker and that women should be stoned to death for pre-marital sex. 

No picking and choosing, please.


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Let me point out that Leviticus is in the Old Testament.  If you are going to take the teachings in the Old Testament as literal gospel, then you must also believe that a woman is unclean for 40 days after having a baby - longer if that baby is a girl. You must also believe that a rape victim must marry her attacker and that women should be stoned to death for pre-marital sex.
> 
> No picking and choosing, please.



  Those laws were chosen then as a guideline, etc... at the time the earth was sparsely populated and the gay relationships would have stunted the population ... who is to say whether those rules were for that reason or not... God has infinite wisdom and its not up to us to decide why or why not the laws were written that way.  BTW, I'd like to see your 4 foot beard too and Amish hat seeings how we are going by the Old Testament.

I think everyone is a sinner, haven’t you realized by now that the Bible has it set up that way?  Some people its homosexuality... doesn't mean you are condemned to hell, etc... it just means they are HUMAN and no different than you or I.  However its a sexual preference that deviates from the norm so it gets made fun of - just the same as if a kid was born and walked around with 10 arms or something.  Things in this world happen for a reason and its not up to us to judge others and decide how this world, that belongs to God should be run.  

Homosexuals are human beings just the same as you and me, they have feelings, they cry, they get hurt, they laugh and they also bleed red blood when cut.  Stop ostracizing your fellow man.  Have you ever talked to gay people and realized alot of these folks are not Christian??  Its not because of the Bible its because of the bashing that goes on by "proclaimed" Christians. Its a cycle of hatred that separates people instead of recognizing the similarities and the commonbond of everyone being a sinner to unite one another. This issue continues to be a divider for them and zealous Christians - that will talk out of both sides of their mouth... one side saying -- Oh no!!! I'm not innocent... I'm a sinner too!!! and then the other side -- Off with your head you sinner gay person you!!!  Even the scripture that Railroad quoted -- the word "effiminate" is used... there's alot of men that are like that in this day and age -- that are entirely straight men. 

The Biblical fact remains that no matter what man does here on Earth, they will always be a sinner.  The Bible is based on sins and the redemption of sins through Jesus Christ.  The homosexual should be no more judged than someone that judges others.  Both are sinners in the eyes of the Lord.  There's is no such thing as half sins or a percentage of wrongness greater in one sin over another - no matter who is commiting it.  A sin is a sin.  Just the same as a woman is either pregnant or not.  The Bible teaches us that we ARE ALL sinners and to accept each other and realize its only through Jesus we receive salvation and redemption for our sins.  You can hate the sin, but don't hate the person.  Everyone is human and has sins.

Just for one day, I would love to see everyone ostracized by their sin and ridiculed and the worst possible insult - to be called not a Christian because of their sin... just one day, have everyone take a look at their own sins instead of others.  Let them have to host parades just to show other people they are indeed human beings and flesh and blood and fallable just the same as the rest of the World and to have a day where they don't feel alienated. Sometimes Christians (and I'm guilty of this two) really do need to walk a mile in someonelse's shoes before passing judgement and then literally hiding behind a Bible and using it as an excuse to hate people.  Do you really think Jesus gave Christians a Bible so that they can bludgened those that have different sins than themselves?  Or as a means to justify their vile behavior towards their fellow man.

These same "proclaimed" Christians must have also just thrown out the entire chapter about the adulterer that was being stoned and Jesus saying "you without sin, cast the first stone" - NOONE threw any  stones and I'll wager my right arm that it wasn't because all them were homosexuals.  We are all sinners, the sooner folks accept it the sooner folks will stop passing harsh judgment on their brothers and sisters in Christ.  If anything they may need some guidance, and Love (what Jesus taught) not hatred, harassment and ridicule.  If you see differently, then I think we have a different Bible, a different Jesus and a different God.  JMHO


----------



## dems4me

grey block... "04-15-2005 01:24 PM hush up.. "



:  Yet another side of the mouth words are leaking out of... 

You guys are TFF!!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

virgovictoria said:
			
		

> I do not know Bible verse, but my experience has been that it is the desire of the Lord to spread the word of the Lord. If the message can be reached by more people via a person they are comfortable with - NOT based on their homosexuality, but, just so happens to be homosexual in addition to being religious, wouldn't the greater good lie in spreading the message? To reach more people and spread faith?


God can use anyone or any experience to reach someone. Does He use sinners? You bet. Does He approve of sin? Emphatically, NO!

 Christianity has nothing to do with being religious. It has everything to do with a personal relationship with God. He details what is acceptable and what is not in the Bible. Almost everyone wants and expects to go to heaven, but they don't want to live the way God expects them to to get there. They want God and heaven on their terms not on God's terms. Sorry. It does not work that way. Not my rules, His.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Let me point out that Leviticus is in the Old Testament. If you are going to take the teachings in the Old Testament as literal gospel, then you must also believe that a woman is unclean for 40 days after having a baby - longer if that baby is a girl. You must also believe that a rape victim must marry her attacker and that women should be stoned to death for pre-marital sex.
> 
> No picking and choosing, please.


No picking and choosing. I believe every word of the Bible.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Those laws were chosen then as a guideline, etc...
> 
> I think everyone is a sinner, haven’t you realized by now that the Bible has it set up that way? Some people its homosexuality... doesn't mean you are condemned to hell, etc... it just means they are HUMAN and no different than you or I. However its a sexual preference that deviates from the norm so it gets made fun of - just the same as if a kid was born and walked around with 10 arms or something. Things in this world happen for a reason and its not up to us to judge others and decide how this world, that belongs to God should be run. .... JMHO


Sorry Dems, you are wrong.

    If you believe the Bible, then I re quote these and it is New Testament (vrai take note).


> Matthew 7:21-23
> 
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23338">21</sup>"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. <sup id="en-NASB-23339">22</sup>"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23340">23</sup>"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'





> 1 Corinthians 6:8-10
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28476">8</sup>On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.     <sup id="en-NASB-28477">9</sup>Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28478">10</sup>nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


 "Just Your Humble Opinion" has nothing to do, absolutely no bearing on scripture. If opinion matter instead of the Bible, everyone could do anything they wanted and still be in God's grace. That is not what the Bible says. If you are a Christian, the Bible has to be your final authority on all things spiritual. If it is not, you a fooling yourself.


----------



## ceo_pte

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> God can use anyone or any experience to reach someone. Does He use sinners? You bet. Does He approve of sin? Emphatically, NO!
> 
> Christianity has nothing to do with being religious. It has everything to do with a personal relationship with God. He details what is acceptable and what is not in the Bible. Almost everyone wants and expects to go to heaven, but they don't want to live the way God expects them to to get there. They want God and heaven on their terms not on God's terms. Sorry. It does not work that way. Not my rules, His.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Sorry Dems, you are wrong.
> 
> If you believe the Bible, then I re quote these and it is New Testament (vrai take note).
> "Just Your Humble Opinion" has nothing to do, absolutely no bearing on scripture. If opinion matter instead of the Bible, everyone could do anything they wanted and still be in God's grace. That is not what the Bible says. If you are a Christian, the Bible has to be your final authority on all things spiritual. If it is not, you a fooling yourself.




are you implying there is NO OTHER sin than homosexuality referenced in the New Testiment?  Especially of juding other people?  We truely do have different bibles 2 A.  It is mentioned in the New Testament in  Romans (12 if I recall correctly) and no where else mentioned in the New Testiment.  We've had this debate between ourselves time and time again. It's not worth me expending any more energy on a topic that people such as yourselves like to condem others for but fail to pick up your own Cross.  If you were focusing on picking up the weight of your own cross you would not be preoccupied with others for falling short of your (not God's) expectations are :shrug:  I think people are born that way and God doesn't make mistakes :shrug:  for whatever reason, that's just the way it is and its not up to me to play God and try to figure out why.  Nuff said.  Thank the Lord the Bible says... all shall enter the Kingdom of God through Jesus and not 2A.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> are you implying there is NO OTHER sin than homosexuality referenced in the New Testiment? Especially of juding other people? We truely do have different bibles 2 A. It is mentioned in the New Testament in Romans (12 if I recall correctly) and no where else mentioned in the New Testiment. We've had this debate between ourselves time and time again. It's not worth me expending any more energy on a topic that people such as yourselves like to condem others for but fail to pick up your own Cross. If you were focusing on picking up the weight of your own cross you would not be preoccupied with others for falling short of your (not God's) expectations are :shrug:  I think people are born that way and God doesn't make mistakes :shrug: for whatever reason, that's just the way it is and its not up to me to play God and try to figure out why. Nuff said. Thank the Lord the Bible says... all shall enter the Kingdom of God through Jesus and not 2A.


You know that is not what I said or implied. Did you read the quotes?  			 				                              1 Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor *homosexuals*," I don't think so. 

     I did not condemn anyone. You condemn me for not picking up my cross yet you dispute the Bible when it is quoted for you with references so you can read it for yourself in any version you like.

   And the Bible does not say "all shall enter the Kingdom of God through Jesus" or did you not read the other quote  			 				                              Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

  Dems you are expressing your wishes and opinions instead of scripture. Your wishes and opinion mean nothing in comparison to the Bible.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You know that is not what I said or implied. Did you read the quotes?  			 				                              1 Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor *homosexuals*," I don't think so.
> 
> I did not condemn anyone. You condemn me for not picking up my cross yet you dispute the Bible when it is quoted for you with references so you can read it for yourself in any version you like.
> 
> And the Bible does not say "all shall enter the Kingdom of God through Jesus" or did you not read the other quote  			 				                              Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
> 
> Dems you are expressing your wishes and opinions instead of scripture. Your wishes and opinion mean nothing in comparison to the Bible.




2A, you are picking various scripture fragments, out of context,  ala cart style and running with them.. to understand the Bible you need to compare Scripture in light of other Scripture to derive at the meaning of it.  Does your Bible not say that "Jesus's Blood at Calgary washed away our sins and paid our sin debts in full" :shrug:  or does yours say "Jesus's Blood at Calgary washed away our sins and paid our sin debts in full unless you were gay".  Or does your Bible not say or imply that concept at all :shrug:

We all will be judged on the day of reckoning... you too just the same as me, or a gay person or an effiminate male, and those men that have sex with women while they are menstrating, or men with beards that are too long, too short, etc... the Bible is full of sins.  Man cannot be considered man without having any sins... thereby we need Jesus Christ for eternal life.  Did he not die for our sins and transgressions?  Yes he did, for people like me and you and other human beings that have "a sin nature".  I believe the only clear cut directive and only because it can be compared in light of many other scriptures is... you can't be in denial of Christ and still get into heaven.  So 2A, I think once again we will have to agree to disagree on this.  You will however be in my prayers tonight! 

We are not seeing eye to eye on this issue and probably never will.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2A, you are picking various scripture fragments, out of context, ala cart style and running with them.. to understand the Bible you need to compare Scripture in light of other Scripture to derive at the meaning of it. Does your Bible not say that "Jesus's Blood at Calgary washed away our sins and paid our sin debts in full" :shrug: or does yours say "Jesus's Blood at Calgary washed away our sins and paid our sin debts in full unless you were gay". Or does your Bible not say or imply that concept at all :shrug:
> 
> We all will be judged on the day of reckoning... you too just the same as me, or a gay person or an effiminate male, and those men that have sex with women while they are menstrating, or men with beards that are too long, too short, etc... the Bible is full of sins. Man cannot be considered man without having any sins... thereby we need Jesus Christ for eternal life. Did he not die for our sins and transgressions? Yes he did, for people like me and you and others that have sin. I believe the only clear cut directive and only because it can be compared in light of many other scriptures is... you can't be in denial of Christ and still get into heaven. So 2A, I think once again we will have to agree to disagree on this. You will however be in my prayers tonight!
> 
> We are not seeing eye to eye on this issue and probably never will.


I took nothing out of context at all. That is the reason I included the scriptures surrounding the pertinent verse. Can a homosexual be saved? Yes, as can a murderer, but only after they repent of their sin. Repentance means recognizing the act as sin and stopping the action or participation in the sin, i.e., "doing the will of the Father". A practicing homosexual is in denial; they do not admit that their sexual preference is sin. 

 I read the Bible. I have read it cover to cover multiple times. Don't accuse me of not reading the Bible or using scripture out of context. I do not quote my opinion but scripture. Show even one verse that says it is OK to be a sinner. It is not there. You cannot find it. It says you must repent of your sin and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I took nothing out of context at all. That is the reason I included the scriptures surrounding the pertinent verse. Can a homosexual be saved? Yes, as can a murderer, but only after they repent of their sin. Repentance means recognizing the act as sin and stopping the action or participation in the sin, i.e., "doing the will of the Father". A practicing homosexual is in denial; they do not admit that their sexual preference is sin.
> 
> I read the Bible. I have read it cover to cover multiple times. Don't accuse me of not reading the Bible or using scripture out of context. I do not quote my opinion but scripture. Show even one verse that says it is OK to be a sinner. It is not there. You cannot find it. It says you must repent of your sin and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord.




Yes, but we all are sinners - the bible says we were born that way by nature.  Just because one person repents of say, adultery, it does not render that person sinless.  We all have sins... and that is why we need a Savior :shrug:  its just not for a select few that have prayed forgiveness and now are considering themselves as "sinless" Messiah's walking around. 

If anything, man - having all these sins and never being able to be sinless as a human being, you would think would make one humble.  But some don't see them selves for their sins, and never reach a humble stage, instead they go after gay people and other people that sin instead of focusing on their own.  I for one, don't feel the Bible should be used for that.  

If only you heard people quote Scripture for all its Love and forgiveness, etc mentioned in the Bible instead of all the condemnation ... only half as much as you hear thumpers smacking folks over the head with one sin or another in the Bible --  I think maybe folks would be more understanding and the world woudl be a better place and the Christian message wuold not tend to fall on as many deaf ears..  Beating eachother up over the head and hiding behind a bible and proclaiming to be better than - will never help bridge any gaps from one person to another.  People don't like folks on a soap box preaching to them about their sins and oustercizing them for it.  

Kind of like the story about the sparrows out in the winter by the barn one year.  The farmer kept trying to usher them in before the blizzard but they didn't come... then he realized if he was a little bitty sparrow such as them, they'd be more akin to listen and follow the farmer (now a sparrow) into the barn.  And it was used in an analogy about the Lord and there being a Jesus,etc.. someone human beings could relate to man to man just as a sparrow to a sparrow.  Now 2A, lets take this one step further... if that farmer with the sparrows didn't show any compassion and just demanded they get in the barn, cursed them out, told them they deserved to die because they are idiots, etc... it would just have created a wedge... it almost the same kind of wedge, I feel, that divides homosexuals and most Christians.    

I also believe that anger will only beget anger and hatred will only beget hatred.  Its when sinners stop accussing fellow sinners of their sins and focus on themselves instead is when bridges will start to be gapped.  Folks need to humble themselves sometimes and look at the "log in their own eye".   

I am really not trying to be critical towards you or anything 2A and I think its awesome you are alive in your spirit life,etc... and would even love to sit down over a cup of coffee one day, etc... but sometimes on here you come across as a reformed smoker (all of a sudden against all forms of tobacco), a recovered drinker (all of a sudden wants the prohibition days back), etc.. its nice the fire has been lit indeed.  But sometimes and I'm sure its just writting styles, it comes across as harsh, stern and abbrassive to folks with either different lifestyles or interpretations of the Bible and occassionally as a "I'm better than" mentality - just the same as some other folks that assail and judge others for their sins.

I enjoy these religious forums very much, but not if its going to be one-way-sally kind of discussions such as - believe in my beliefs or we will argue and debate until the cows come home.  

Also, I don't seel how one Christian's sins should be the buisiness of another Christian quiet frankly, especially if it doesn't involve them... If it doesn't involve them, then it should be  none of their business... its between that person and God.  But I guess that issue is for another day...  

God Bless, 2A.   Although we disagree at times ...I still love ya' 2A!!


----------



## Bustem' Down

The way I see it is if nobody wants to give them a wedding in a church, so be it, that's thier perrogotive.  But they should be allowed civil unions, it doesn't hurt anybody.


----------



## gumbo

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> The way I see it is if nobody wants to give them a wedding in a church, so be it, that's thier perrogotive.  But they should be allowed civil unions, it doesn't hurt anybody.


Doesn't hurt anybody ? Are you serious?
I have seen first hand ,many times, how messed up in the head grown adults can be after being raised by Homosexual's.

And what about Social Security? Let's say A Homo couple gets married legally
and one of them dies , does one get to collect the others Social Security?
If so ,wouldn't that put a bigger strain on the system.
And what's to stop two people that are not Homos from getting married just so their friend can collect the others Social Security or retainment funds ?

Dad why is Mr Jones kissing Mr Smith next door. Dad ! Mr Smith is now Mr Jones too ! They got Married ,can I go next door and play with Ricky Smith or would that be Ricky Jones Now?
I bet you wouldn't want to be in that situation would you?

Last I recall God Nuked Two towns for these abominations and to this day nothing grows there. Um ...Clue don't ya think.

There is a thing called celibacy and billions of people practice it,so if someone is a freak of nature ,then I suggest they practice it.
And if they cannot then they need to keep that moral decay to themselves behind closed doors.
I am not being judgmental. Right is right and wrong is wrong and if you don't know just ask yourself if you would want your children exposed to it and you will come up with the right answer of what is right.
So all that have no honor of right anymore stand up for yourself and stop being a bleeding heart Liberal.


----------



## Bustem' Down

gumbo said:
			
		

> Dad why is Mr Jones kissing Mr Smith next door. Dad ! Mr Smith is now Mr Jones too ! They got Married ,can I go next door and play with Ricky Smith or would that be Ricky Jones Now?
> I bet you wouldn't want to be in that situation would you?
> 
> Last I recall God Nuked Two towns for these abominations and to this day nothing grows there. Um ...Clue don't ya think.
> 
> There is a thing called celibacy and billions of people practice it,so if someone is a freak of nature ,then I suggest they practice it.
> And if they cannot then they need to keep that moral decay to themselves behind closed doors.
> I am not being judgmental. Right is right and wrong is wrong and if you don't know just ask yourself if you would want your children exposed to it and you will come up with the right answer of what is right.
> So all that have no honor of right anymore stand up for yourself and stop being a bleeding heart Liberal.


That is a tired argument.  Do you really think that by them not getting married any of that is going to stop?  They are still going to kiss in public, live together and do what they want.  And as to moral decay, if a male and female couple decide that they like to have multiple people all together, should we ban them from marrying too?  I believe that that to people, male and female, living together and having children out of wedlock isn't right too, but we don't stop common law marrages.


----------



## EmnJoe

The bible is interpreted differently by everyone. Just remember "opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one and most of them stink". Interpretations are the same way. 
But just for the record I happen to like Dems opinions on this subject.


----------



## Bustem' Down

I think too many people are scared like it's some disease you can catch.  Homosexuals have always been around, will always be around, and ignoring them will not make them go away.


----------



## Railroad

People often say that the times were different in the Old Testament and that what it says there doesn't apply anymore (some say because Jesus came and changed all that).  I've been taught that that's not how it works - God is timeless and so are His words and rules.  

But I know people's opinions about these things differ.  I'm with 2A 100% on this one.  The Bible says, "Judge not lest you yourself be judged," so I'm not going to even attempt to deal with who's going to he11 and who's going to heaven.  I know I'm saved, and that's that.


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> The Bible says, "Judge not lest you yourself be judged," so I'm not going to even attempt to deal with who's going to he11 and who's going to heaven.


  Homosexuality is an issue to broad in scope for me to wrap my mind around.  What I do know, is that the homosexuals that I know are wonderful people, and are often more compassionate and understanding than the heterosexuals I know.  Specifically, one of my friends is a lesbian.  She has had my back since the day she met me, and is one of the most loyal female friends I have ever had (and as a rule I generally don't congregate with female friends, they are too catty).  That being said, I refuse to entertain the thought that she will go to hell.  It's her life, she lives it the way she wants, and she understands the consequences.  But I am not going to miss out on our friendship simply because the bible says she's damned. :shrug:


----------



## reefbeef

trisha said:
			
		

> With all the publicity about gay marriage, I ask what's the deal on some religions relaxing about ordained gays and lesbians? Is this something you agree or disagree about?


 Do you know that song doe a deer. If God wanted you to marry a man if your a ### then he would have all men on this earth. Whats doe a deer, Buck a deer a female deer I don't think so.


----------



## vraiblonde

reefbeef said:
			
		

> Do you know that song doe a deer. If God wanted you to marry a man if your a ### then he would have all men on this earth. Whats doe a deer, Buck a deer a female deer I don't think so.




And you guys say _I_ drink


----------



## Railroad

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> And you guys say _I_ drink


Not ME!


----------



## somdcrab

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> And you guys say _I_ drink


yeah     still wubya tho


----------



## Tigerlily

somdcrab said:
			
		

> yeah     still wubya tho


----------



## Ken King

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> And you guys say _I_ drink


 No, we say you should drink.


----------



## vraiblonde

That would make a great sig line though - "Buck a deer a female deer I don't think so"


----------



## Bustem' Down

Railroad said:
			
		

> People often say that the times were different in the Old Testament and that what it says there doesn't apply anymore (some say because Jesus came and changed all that).  I've been taught that that's not how it works - God is timeless and so are His words and rules.
> 
> But I know people's opinions about these things differ.  I'm with 2A 100% on this one.  The Bible says, "Judge not lest you yourself be judged," so I'm not going to even attempt to deal with who's going to he11 and who's going to heaven.  I know I'm saved, and that's that.


Railroad, That's one of the more intellegent things I've heard here and respect you for that.  Too many people like to throw stones first.


----------



## Railroad

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> Railroad, That's one of the more intellegent things I've heard here and respect you for that. Too many people like to throw stones first.


Thanks!


----------



## K_Jo

I don't care what the bible says.  Homosexuality is not a choice.  Therefore, calling someone a sinner for being born gay is the same as calling someone a sinner for being born ugly.


----------



## Railroad

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I don't care what the bible says. Homosexuality is not a choice. Therefore, calling someone a sinner for being born gay is the same as calling someone a sinner for being born ugly.


  Somebody's got *YOU* fooled!


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> Somebody's got *YOU* fooled!


How would you know wether or not homosexuality is a choice?


----------



## Railroad

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY id=collapseobj_usercp_reputation><TR><TD class=alt2>*http://forums.somd.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif*</TD><TD class=alt1Active id=p905355 width="50%">*Proudly Gay and Ordained?*</TD><TD class=alt2 noWrap>*04-17-2005 10:05 AM*</TD><TD class=alt1 width="50%">*nobody's rules are timeless.*</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>You'll find out for certain about that someday, I'm sure.


----------



## Railroad

Nickel said:
			
		

> How would you know wether or not homosexuality is a choice?


Because God created each of us, and He abhors homosexuality, so I 'spect He didn't wire anybody that way.  Our weaknesses are often the result of tendencies we're born with (temper, alcoholism, etc.).  That doesn't make it okay to yield to them.  My weakness is alcohol - I'm wired that way.  I can choose not to drink, though.


----------



## K_Jo

Railroad said:
			
		

> Somebody's got *YOU* fooled!


That will be fixed when I'm "saved," right?


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> Because God created each of us, and He abhors homosexuality, so* I 'spect He didn't wire anybody that way*.


Ok, so you _don't_ know, you just assume.  Just checking.


----------



## K_Jo

Railroad said:
			
		

> Because God created each of us, and He abhors homosexuality, so I 'spect He didn't wire anybody that way. Our weaknesses are often the result of tendencies we're born with (temper, alcoholism, etc.). That doesn't make it okay to yield to them. My weakness is alcohol - I'm wired that way. I can choose not to drink, though.


 Somebody's got *YOU* fooled!


----------



## Railroad

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Somebody's got *YOU* fooled!


What would YOU know?! You spend most of your time in *SUITLAND*.


----------



## K_Jo

Don't kiss me - I'm not finished sparring.


----------



## Railroad

Please understand, I don't hate gay people.  They've made their choices, that's their prerogative.  But when asked, I tell what I know, and what I know is based on what the Bible says, not what modern society would ask me to believe.  What I post on this topic are my opinions as best I can express them, but the REAL opinion is God's, and all I know about that is what's in the Bible.


----------



## Railroad

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Don't kiss me - I'm not finished sparring.


Punch me right in the kisser - I'll kiss your fist!


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> Please understand, I don't hate gay people.


I never said that you did.  You assume that homosexuals are not born that way, however you go on to say that "our weaknesses are often the result of tendencies we're born with".  From that I gather that you believe homosexuals are born with the predisposed attraction to members of their same sex, and what separates the sinners from the non-sinners is the acting out of those tendencies.  I don't necessarily disagree, I just think it's ignorant to assume that homosexuality is a choice, when you _do not_ know this is fact.


----------



## Railroad

Nickel said:
			
		

> I never said that you did. You assume that homosexuals are not born that way, however you go on to say that "our weaknesses are often the result of tendencies we're born with". From that I gather that you believe homosexuals are born with the predisposed attraction to members of their same sex, and what separates the sinners from the non-sinners is the acting out of those tendencies. I don't necessarily disagree, I just think it's ignorant to assume that homosexuality is a choice, when you _do not_ know this is fact.


Assuming gays are wired that way (although I think not), and knowing from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin just as many other things are, then we can deduce (not assume) that homosexuality is a sin just like drinking to excess, adultery. etc.  The challenge we face as Christians is to recognize these behaviors as counter to what God intends, and be strong enough to resist them (with God's help).  So in that challenge there IS a choice, and the choice is to obey God's rules.  Therefore one can say that there is a choice.

People need guidance as they make their choices in life, and unfortunately it's either unavailable or not heeded by everybody when they need it the most. Those who get and use the guidance God provides know what choices to make.  I have known effeminate men (by mannerisms, build, and speech) that were either celibate or heterosexuals.  They were Christians.  I've also known masculine women (same set of parameters as for men) who were either celibate or heterosexuals.  They also were Christians.  I see in them the very noble quality of obeying God's word, regardless of their tendencies.


----------



## K_Jo

:holdingtongueandabandoningthread:


----------



## Railroad

K_Jo said:
			
		

> :holdingtongueandabandoningthread:


I apologize if I've offended anybody, you in particular, K_Jo, because I respect you a whole lot!  You have your opinion and I have mine, and I respect yours, even if I disagree with it.


----------



## K_Jo

You didn't run me off or offend me.  I just happen to have very strong opinions/beliefs that are exactly the opposite of yours and there's no sense in going back and forth about it.  I'd much rather mess around in Chit Chat than get all riled up in a forum I know will be nothing but trouble.


----------



## Railroad

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You didn't run me off or offend me. I just happen to have very strong opinions/beliefs that are exactly the opposite of yours and there's no sense in going back and forth about it. I'd much rather mess around in Chit Chat than get all riled up in a forum I know will be nothing but trouble.


I'm with ya there!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## gumbo

Born that way or not. Who cares thats not the point.
Is it a immoral sex act according to the Bible , Yes it is.
There are choices everyone has to make, if they feel they are born that way they can choose to be celibate.

The fact is everyone wants to make their problems someone else's and will manipulate and twist the word to suit themselves..

Its funny when I was a biker and a drug user I thought it was OK to exploit women, to do drugs and fight. 
During that time in my life I could twist the laws and the word to suit myself and argue the point that it was perfectly OK to do what I was doing.
I didn't feel I was hurting anyone or myself.
Because I truly believed this, I would twist anything anyone said and make it seem like they was wrong and the bad guy.

The point is we all want accept what we do as right even if it is wrong.
Because we know Gay folks or even have a loved one that is Gay, does not make it any less lewd behavior.
I am not saying shun them or to judge them ,because that too  is a sin,
But it is dead wrong to twist Gods word to fit a life style of immorality.

Homosexuality is an action , not a person or a race
What part of being held accountable for your actions don't you understand?


----------



## JabbaJawz

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I don't care what the bible says.  Homosexuality is not a choice.  Therefore, calling someone a sinner for being born gay is the same as calling someone a sinner for being born ugly.



Agreed.


----------



## gumbo

EmnJoe said:
			
		

> The bible is interpreted differently by everyone. Just remember "opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one and most of them stink". Interpretations are the same way.
> But just for the record I happen to like Dems opinions on this subject.


No its not interpreted differently by everyone.

It,s only misinterpreted by those of greed and those whom are trying to make there actions fit the word of God.


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> I have known effeminate men (by mannerisms, build, and speech) that were either celibate or heterosexuals.  They were Christians.  I've also known masculine women (same set of parameters as for men) who were either celibate or heterosexuals.  They also were Christians.  I see in them the very noble quality of obeying God's word, regardless of their tendencies.


I will leave this conversation with this:

A man or woman's mannerisms have absolutely nothing to do with their sexual preferances.  To say that a man who dresses well, cries, or has any other stereotypical gay traits is ignorant.  To say that a woman who (heaven forbid) displays male tendencies, such as hammering a nail or playing sports is attracted to other women is not only ignorant, it is narrow minded and archaic.  Maybe they were "heterosexuals" because they were attracted to members of the other sex.  Get a grip, a person's sexual preference is none of your business or concern...if they're going to hell that's their cross to bear, not yours.  Do not condemn those that you do not know.


----------



## Nickel

gumbo said:
			
		

> The point is we all want accept what we do as right even if it is wrong.
> Because we know Gay folks or even have a loved one that is Gay, does not make it any less lewd behavior.
> I am not saying shun them or to judge them ,because that too  is a sin,
> But it is dead wrong to twist Gods word to fit a life style of immorality.
> 
> Homosexuality is an action , not a person or a race
> What part of being held accountable for your actions don't you understand?


I agree with this.  I do not condone homosexuality, but honestly, it has no basis on my life, and I'm not going to prance around like some lunatic telling people they're going to hell.  Frankly, it's not my job, nor is it any other earthly person's.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

You know what? It makes no difference what opinion any human being has on the subject of sin no matter what sin it is. The only thing that matters is what God knows. It is His kingdom and He will let in or reject and  condemn who He wishes. Period. Many, many people want to go to heaven on their own terms. The Bible says they won't. It does not matter what I say. It does not matter what Dems says, or Railroad, or vrai, or Nickel, or Bustin or anyone else. It just does not matter what your opinion is. Your choice whether you choose to obey God's word does matter. The difference is heaven or hell. There is no in between and when you die, there is no second chance. Choose wisely.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Nickel said:
			
		

> ... and I'm not going to prance around like some lunatic telling people they're going to hell. Frankly, it's not my job, nor is it any other earthly person's.


If you are a Christian, it is your business. The Bible says to proclaim the Truth. Those that die in their sin without forgiveness will go to hell. If you don't agree, too bad. It doesn't matter. I would hope you would do it in a reasonable manner and not like a prancing lunatic, but if you are a Christian, you must do it.


----------



## Ricky Racer

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I don't care what the bible says.  Homosexuality is not a choice.  Therefore, calling someone a sinner for being born gay is the same as calling someone a sinner for being born ugly.


This statement doesn't apply to any laws of logic.  
Being ugly is not an action.
Someone,s sexual preference is a *ACTION*

And to state that Homosexuality is not a choice is to aSSume that all Homosexuals are genetically deformed.  


Um....So what about men who go into prison heterosexually but become homosexual , or woman that just get tired of being screwed over by men , all they did was change their sexual preference.

That shoots your theory in the foot.

Speaking of choice....That would be your choice not to care what the bible says


----------



## SmallTown

Ricky Racer said:
			
		

> Speaking of choice....That would be your choice not to care what the bible says


homosexuality is such an easy target for the biblethumpers.  Please, show me one person in this entire world who follows exactly what they bible says.  Going by your logic, EVERY christian chooses not to care what the bible says in one aspect or another.  Many christians use a liberal interpretation of the bible for themselves, and a very strict interpretation when it pertains to others.


----------



## Ricky Racer

SmallTown said:
			
		

> homosexuality is such an easy target for the biblethumpers.  Please, show me one person in this entire world who follows exactly what they bible says.  Going by your logic, EVERY christian chooses not to care what the bible says in one aspect or another.  Many christians use a liberal interpretation of the bible for themselves, and a very strict interpretation when it pertains to others.


No target .. Last I looked this thread is about Homosexuals being ordained.
Then as usual you have those who think it's OK.

As for the rest of your statement I agree.
As for being Christan. I am not trying to be ordained.


----------



## SmallTown

Ricky Racer said:
			
		

> No target .. Last I looked this thread is about Homosexuals being ordained.
> Then as usual you have those who think it's OK.
> 
> As for the rest of your statement I agree.
> As for being Christan. I am not trying to be ordained.


Every Christian I have even known that tries to "spread the word of God" say it isn't them, but rather God speaking through them.  So I would imagine if being Gay is so wrong in God's eyes, whenever they opened their mouth to spread the word, nothing would come out :shrug:


----------



## Bustem' Down

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I don't care what the bible says.  Homosexuality is not a choice.  Therefore, calling someone a sinner for being born gay is the same as calling someone a sinner for being born ugly.


I have to agree with that.  My Uncle was gay and he's told me that he wan't to be straight, but can't.  He wouldn't choose to be ostracized from society.


----------



## gumbo

The more I read these post the more I realize that people assume people have to have sex.
To be a Homosexually  you have to be having sex.
And what does the Bible say about immoral sex?
It's a sin.

End of conversation. 

From what I see allot of you think it's ok for a man to be ordained that is known to be slamming it to another man's butt.
What a wonderful world of morals we live in.
Soon the word moral will be a bad word.


----------



## Bustem' Down

gumbo said:
			
		

> The more I read these post the more I realize that people assume people have to have sex.
> To be a Homosexually  you have to be having sex.
> And what does the Bible say about immoral sex?
> It's a sin.
> 
> End of conversation.
> 
> From what I see allot of you think it's ok for a man to be ordained that is known to be slamming it to another man's butt.
> What a wonderful world of morals we live in.
> Soon the word moral will be a bad word.


Point taken, but isn't it immoral to commit adultery?  Why are those people exempt?


----------



## SamSpade

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> Point taken, but isn't it immoral to commit adultery?  Why are those people exempt?


  I don't think people think it's exempt, least of all, Christians. Of course they believe it's wrong.

 One of the most worn-out arguments is the discussion that somehow, homosexuality is singled out amongst Christians as somehow being worse than everything else - that with all the sin out there, it gets a worse rap than anything else.

  Bull.

 It gets *attention* because there are so many trying to put across the idea that no matter what the Bible teaches or what the church says, that it's just plain ok. And see, no one is saying that hey, if you're a good person, a nice guy, help people out BUT you do commit adultery, then that makes it all ok. No one's saying that. And no one is saying that homosexuality is some far terrible sin that trumps all others.

 The issue only exists at all because there's a side claiming that it's ok, and another saying it isn't. It's not being "picked on". The issue exists because some *support* it.

 Where are the pro-adultery marchers? Where's the thread on saying adultery is ok, as long as you're a good person, and that you have several friends that are habitual adulterers, but, you don't have a problem with that? It's simple. People know that that is wrong. It doesn't get "picked on" because people aren't defending it.


----------



## Railroad

SamSpade said:
			
		

> I don't think people think it's exempt, least of all, Christians. Of course they believe it's wrong.
> 
> One of the most worn-out arguments is the discussion that somehow, homosexuality is singled out amongst Christians as somehow being worse than everything else - that with all the sin out there, it gets a worse rap than anything else.
> 
> Bull.
> 
> It gets *attention* because there are so many trying to put across the idea that no matter what the Bible teaches or what the church says, that it's just plain ok. And see, no one is saying that hey, if you're a good person, a nice guy, help people out BUT you do commit adultery, then that makes it all ok. No one's saying that. And no one is saying that homosexuality is some far terrible sin that trumps all others.
> 
> The issue only exists at all because there's a side claiming that it's ok, and another saying it isn't. It's not being "picked on". The issue exists because some *support* it.
> 
> Where are the pro-adultery marchers? Where's the thread on saying adultery is ok, as long as you're a good person, and that you have several friends that are habitual adulterers, but, you don't have a problem with that? It's simple. People know that that is wrong. It doesn't get "picked on" because people aren't defending it.


Well said, Sam, as usual!!!


----------



## K_Jo

Ricky Racer said:
			
		

> And to state that Homosexuality is not a choice is to aSSume that all Homosexuals are genetically deformed.


_Deformed_?  That's certainly not what _I'm_ assuming.  You poor thing.  Poor little homophobe.


----------



## Ricky Racer

K_Jo said:
			
		

> _Deformed_?  That's certainly not what _I'm_ assuming.  You poor thing.  Poor little homophobe.


Excuse me ! You was the one that posted Homo's are born that way.
That would make then a genetic deformity would it not.

Hardly am I Homophobic , I grew up 15 miles from Hollywood CA.
I have had lots of friends that are gay , but thats besides the point.

I don't think a Hooker should be ordained either


----------



## K_Jo

Ricky Racer said:
			
		

> Excuse me ! You was the one that posted Homo's are born that way.
> That would make then a genetic deformity would it not.
> 
> Hardly am I Homophobic , I grew up 15 miles from Hollywood CA.
> I have had lots of friends that are gay , but thats besides the point.
> 
> I don't think a Hooker should be ordained either


Right, I believe homesexuals are born homosexual.  That does not mean I believe homosexuality is a genetic deformity.  

That would make then a genetic deformity would it not. <------ That is an ignorant statement, so I'd rather you didn't give me credit for it.


----------



## AC/DC

Ricky Racer said:
			
		

> I don't think a Hooker should be ordained either.




It would give “confirmation” a whole new meaning.


----------



## dems4me

Railroad said:
			
		

> People often say that the times were different in the Old Testament and that what it says there doesn't apply anymore (some say because Jesus came and changed all that).  I've been taught that that's not how it works - God is timeless and so are His words and rules.
> 
> But I know people's opinions about these things differ.  I'm with 2A 100% on this one.  The Bible says, "Judge not lest you yourself be judged," so I'm not going to even attempt to deal with who's going to he11 and who's going to heaven.  I know I'm saved, and that's that.



ummm... I think that was my point...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> Point taken, but isn't it immoral to commit adultery? Why are those people exempt?


They aren't if you bothered to read the quote. But here it is again for those with comprehension problems.


> 1 Corinthians 6:8-10
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28476">8</sup>On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.     <sup id="en-NASB-28477">9</sup>Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither *fornicators,* nor *idolaters,* nor _*adulterers,*_ nor *effeminate,* nor _*homosexuals,*_
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28478">10</sup>nor *thieves,* nor the *covetous,* nor *drunkards,* nor *revilers,* nor *swindlers,* will inherit the kingdom of God.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

SamSpade said:
			
		

> I don't think people think it's exempt, least of all, Christians. Of course they believe it's wrong.
> 
> One of the most worn-out arguments is the discussion that somehow, homosexuality is singled out amongst Christians as somehow being worse than everything else - that with all the sin out there, it gets a worse rap than anything else.
> 
> Bull.
> 
> It gets *attention* because there are so many trying to put across the idea that no matter what the Bible teaches or what the church says, that it's just plain ok. And see, no one is saying that hey, if you're a good person, a nice guy, help people out BUT you do commit adultery, then that makes it all ok. No one's saying that. And no one is saying that homosexuality is some far terrible sin that trumps all others.
> 
> The issue only exists at all because there's a side claiming that it's ok, and another saying it isn't. It's not being "picked on". The issue exists because some *support* it.
> 
> Where are the pro-adultery marchers? Where's the thread on saying adultery is ok, as long as you're a good person, and that you have several friends that are habitual adulterers, but, you don't have a problem with that? It's simple. People know that that is wrong. It doesn't get "picked on" because people aren't defending it.


Well said.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> ummm... I think that was my point...


It sure does not come across that way. Your posts come across as it is OK to sin. It is OK to be a homosexual. If that is not what you meant, then you need to be much clearer. 





> Matthew 5:13-19
> <sup id="en-NASB-23248">13</sup>"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. <sup id="en-NASB-23249">14</sup>"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23250">15</sup>nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23251">16</sup>"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23252">17</sup>"*Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23253">18</sup>"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23254">19</sup>"*Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23255">20</sup>"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> It sure does not come across that way. Your posts come across as it is OK to sin. It is OK to be a homosexual. If that is not what you meant, then you need to be much clearer.




2A, all you do is focus on a few bits of scripture... the Bible has loads and loads and loads more information than what you keep regurgitating from it.  If that's all you want to focus on than, so be it... but tell me this... how does it feel to not be a sinner yourself :shrug:  How does it feel to CONSTANTLY point out the sins of other people... is there a log in your eye YET??? If not, I think the seed is there and starting to grow.  Does Jesus's blood at the cross mean anything to you?  Do you NOT believe that Jesus died for our sins? 

Ohhh... I give up.  I've got to many other things on my  plate than to argue with someone that comes across as above others.  We all are sinners and should be humble and focus on our own sins instead of damming someone to al life of hell because THEY TOO are sinners. The Bible is structure in a way so that everyone has SINS... We are all born with a sinful nature.  Why don't you ostercize other people for their various sins... why does everyone focus on gays?  It's because they are different than "the norm" and thereby the only weapon they have to make themselves feel better is the Bible.  The Bible IS NOT to be used as a weapon of hatred.  At least that's not what I use my Bible for.


----------



## dems4me

Green "I love it when you get riled up "





Thanks!!  But my blood pressure/internist doesn't...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2A, all you do is focus on a few bits of scripture... the Bible has loads and loads and loads more information than what you keep regurgitating from it. If that's all you want to focus on than, so be it... but tell me this... how does it feel to not be a sinner yourself :shrug: How does it feel to CONSTANTLY point out the sins of other people... is there a log in your eye YET??? If not, I think the seed is there and starting to grow. Does *Jesus'* blood at the cross mean anything to you? Do you NOT believe that Jesus died for our sins?
> 
> Ohhh... I give up. I've got to many other things on my plate than to argue with someone that comes across as above others. We all are sinners and should be humble and focus on our own sins instead of damming someone to *a* life of hell because THEY TOO are sinners. The Bible is structure in a way so that everyone has SINS... We are all born with a sinful nature. Why don't you *ostracize* other people for their various sins... why does everyone focus on gays? It's because they are different than "the norm" and thereby the only weapon they have to make themselves feel better is the Bible. The Bible IS NOT to be used as a weapon of hatred. At least that's not what I use my Bible for.


Dems, I have read the Bible cover to cover in several different translations. Have you? You go on about your opinions and post nothing of scripture. I post the scripture that is applicable to the subject. The subjects usually revolve around just a few that get brought up from time to time. Those verses that apply haven't changed.

  Does Jesus' sacrifice on the cross mean anything to me? Obviously yes. I take the Christian life very seriously. *It is by God's sacrifice that I and everyone that accepts His saving grace and does the will of the Father are saved. *His resurrection is my promise of eternal life. That is the reason I do not want to turn a blind eye to sin but proclaim the Truth. I do it not to condemn but in the hope that the Holy Spirit will convict and turn to repentance those that do not have Him.

   Where have I ever said I was not a sinner? Where? Show it to me. I do sin still and every time I realize I have, I ask forgiveness and I do my best through the power of the Holy Spirit not to sin.

  Where have I ever ostracized anyone? Where? Show it to me. It is a Christian's duty to proclaim the word of God, the Truth, not watered down and not politically correct. If a Christian does not do that, then they are not loving others. 

  What is better? Is it better to tell someone that what they are doing is against God's word and they are running the risk of eternal damnation and, hopefully, win them to Christ? Or is it better to not say anything and tacitly approve their sin and let them die and go to hell? What is better?

   The point is that homosexuals and adulterers and thieves and anyone who does any sin that continue to practice those sins with out recognizing then as sin are on the road to condemnation. It does not mean that they cannot repent and be saved. An active homosexual, murderer, adulterer, or whatever has not repented or they would recognize their action as sin and turn from it. 

   Those that teach it is OK to sin will be called least in heaven even if they are saved, or did you conveniently not read that part.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Dems, I have read the Bible cover to cover in several different translations. Have you? You go on about your opinions and post nothing of scripture. I post the scripture that is applicable to the subject. The subjects usually revolve around just a few that get brought up from time to time. Those verses that apply haven't changed.
> 
> Does Jesus' sacrifice on the cross mean anything to me? Obviously yes. I take the Christian life very seriously. *It is by God's sacrifice that I and everyone that accepts His saving grace and does the will of the Father are saved. *His resurrection is my promise of eternal life. That is the reason I do not want to turn a blind eye to sin but proclaim the Truth. I do it not to condemn but in the hope that the Holy Spirit will convict and turn to repentance those that do not have Him.
> 
> Where have I ever said I was not a sinner? Where? Show it to me. I do sin still and every time I realize I have, I ask forgiveness and I do my best through the power of the Holy Spirit not to sin.
> 
> Where have I ever ostracized anyone? Where? Show it to me. It is a Christian's duty to proclaim the word of God, the Truth, not watered down and not politically correct. If a Christian does not do that, then they are not loving others.
> 
> What is better? Is it better to tell someone that what they are doing is against God's word and they are running the risk of eternal damnation and, hopefully, win them to Christ? Or is it better to not say anything and tacitly approve their sin and let them die and go to hell? What is better?
> 
> The point is that homosexuals and adulterers and thieves and anyone who does any sin that continue to practice those sins with out recognizing then as sin are on the road to condemnation. It does not mean that they cannot repent and be saved. An active homosexual, murderer, adulterer, or whatever has not repented or they would recognize their action as sin and turn from it.
> 
> Those that teach it is OK to sin will be called least in heaven even if they are saved, or did you conveniently not read that part.




2A - No need for sarcasim.  You are the one reading the Bible ala-cart style and not comparing it in light of other scripture.  You are staying on a page or two instead of the hundreds of pages written in it.

For example, do you have anything against Crippled people, disabbled people or handicapped people?  Do you feel they should be able to worship the Lord in church or stay out in the parking lot?  If you were to read the Bible verbatim as you like to do... then in Leveticus it states that crippled people are not to defile the house of the Lord and attend church - but yet later in the New Testiment... Jesus is healing crippled people.  If you take things verbatium and only read things at a non-contextual view, explain that one?  Did Jesus say anything about hatting gay people?  I think not.  

Jesus taught all about love and if two gay people love eachother... I feel NOT being able to love is one of the biggest sins you can commit (figuratively speaking)... If someone is in love with another person than by all means, I don't give a rats behind if they are same sex or not.  Also, 2A I just don't think the Lord creates these people just to be tortured all their lives by society and was born to resist the urge to love someone.  JMO


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The point is that homosexuals and adulterers and thieves and anyone who does any sin that continue to practice those sins with out recognizing then as sin are on the road to condemnation. It does not mean that they cannot repent and be saved. An active homosexual, murderer, adulterer, or whatever has not repented or they would recognize their action as sin and turn from it.


I've always understood that if you accept God into your heart, you are "saved."


----------



## FastCarsSpeed

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> I've always understood that if you accept God into your heart, you are "saved."




Yes Maam...


What I wanna know is why is it anyones business what sex preference a person has?  If a person wants to worship the lord then that is fine no matter what religion or sexual preference in my book.  But I do get tired of these stupid openly gay statements.  Why dont all the busy bodies start worrying about their own damn lives then get into other peoples business.  Sexual Preference and sex in general is not something that should be brought up in church anyway.  What the hell does if have to do with worshiping your lord?  I have met many homosexual people that are a whole lot of a better person than I am.  

What happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom.


----------



## dems4me

FastCarsSpeed said:
			
		

> Yes Maam...
> 
> 
> What I wanna know is why is it anyones business what sex preference a person has?  If a person wants to worship the lord then that is fine no matter what religion or sexual preference in my book.  But I do get tired of these stupid openly gay statements.  Why dont all the busy bodies start worrying about their own damn lives then get into other peoples business.  Sexual Preference and sex in general is not something that should be brought up in church anyway.  What the hell does if have to do with worshiping your lord?  I have met many homosexual people that are a whole lot of a better person than I am.
> 
> What happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom.




   I agree.  What about all the people that steal :shrug: heck that's a commandment at that!!!  Sadly I think if you asked alot of these closed minded individuals - or zealout Christians who they'd rather sit next to on a bus... a gay person, a theif, a murderer, etc... sometimes I think, the gay person would be the oddman out.  They are peaceful law abidding citizens just the same as you or I (if anything more so... I don't recall hearing about a bunch of gay people robbing banks, murdering people, breaking in homes, etc... if so...Heaven's to Betsy it'd really be a pack mentality against them.  Even african americans were denied their civil rights for a long time... and they weren't allowed to marry the person they loved because it was considered mixed races, etc... Why should a gay person be denied their civil rights and be the target of Christians more so than any other sinner?  

There are gay people (a few I know of) that are on these forums... and all this bashing of gay people here and there in the religious forums will only continue to drive a wedge where I don't think one should be.  If you think about it 2A - Christianity and etrnal life is the best gift of all - why not share it with gay people instead of throwing the scripture in their face as a - you don't belong with us mentality.  We all sin and we all are sinners.  Its up to and between ONLY that person and their maker in the end.  

Its one thing to try to help gay people and spread the word of Christianity, its another to continually point out through scripture the chastisement and belittlement YOU feel they should be dealt with.  The Bible should be used as a caring instruction book on life, not as a whip on a whipping boy for people to exalt themselves by pointing out scripture and their interpretation on it in order to justify hatered.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> I've always understood that if you accept God into your heart, you are "saved."


Y'shua, Jesus, made a point that you had to "do the will of the Father". Maybe the third time is the charm. This is Y'shua speaking: 





> Matthew 7:21-23
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23338">21</sup>"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. <sup id="en-NASB-23339">22</sup>"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23340">23</sup>"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


 This was from Paul.





> 1 Corinthians 6:8-10
> 
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28476">8</sup>On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.     <sup id="en-NASB-28477">9</sup>Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28478">10</sup>nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


 And to satisfy Dems, a different group of verses. This is also from Paul





> *Romans 6*
> 
> *Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28070">1</sup>What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?     <sup id="en-NASB-28071">2</sup>May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28072">3</sup>Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28073">4</sup>Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28074">5</sup>For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28075">6</sup>knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28076">7</sup>for he who has died is freed from sin.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28077">8</sup>Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28078">9</sup>knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28079">10</sup>For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28080">11</sup>Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28081">12</sup>Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28082">13</sup>and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28083">14</sup>For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28084">15</sup>What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28085">16</sup>Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28086">17</sup>But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28087">18</sup>and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28088">19</sup>I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28089">20</sup>For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28090">21</sup>Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28091">22</sup>But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28092">23</sup>For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> I agree.


The Bible doesn't.


----------



## nomoney

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Y'shua, Jesus, made a point that you had to "do the will of the Father". Maybe the third time is the charm. This is Y'shua speaking: This was from Paul. And to satisfy Dems, a different group of verses. This is also from Paul


 

can you answer that in english...so I don't have to read all that scripture? TIA.


----------



## Railroad

I can't believe y'all are still going at it, here.  The original question has been answered about 50 times.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> ... If you think about it 2A - Christianity and etrnal life is the best gift of all - why not share it with gay people instead of throwing the scripture in their face as a - you don't belong with us mentality. We all sin and we all are sinners. Its up to and between ONLY that person and their maker in the end.
> 
> Its one thing to try to help gay people and spread the word of Christianity, its another to continually point out through scripture the chastisement and belittlement they should be dealt with. The Bible should be used as a caring instruction book on life, not as a whip on a whipping boy for people to exalt themselves by pointing out scripture and their interpretation on it in order to justify hatered.


And if it is not pointed out, how are the supposed to know? Sharing of the scripture is how they will know. No other way. I have not bashed anyone. I have posted scripture. The Truth, scripture, is offensive to those that do not believe it. I am surprise at you taking offense at the Truth.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Y'shua, Jesus, made a point that you had to "do the will of the Father". Maybe the third time is the charm. This is Y'shua speaking:  This was from Paul. And to satisfy Dems, a different group of verses. This is also from Paul



You are gasping at straws and block copying things from the Bible... No one argued that you shouldn't strive to do the will of the father... but no matter how hard you try... you are still a sinner are you not?  The Lord knows a person's heart better than you or I and it will be up to HIM to judge.  All you are doing is perpetuating the fact that you try to do with will of the father... who's to say gay people dont as well?  but with fewer gays being Christian, you'd think you'd reach out to them insteadof condemn.  You're Bible is about love 2A - not about picking apart other people's flaws.  Imagine a gay person that is lost 2A... what approach do you think will better to convert gayt peopld  -- you're way -- YOU are an abomination to God!!! It says so!!! Right here!!! Go away!!! You don't belong with us "perfect" sinless Christians" or -- yes... we all sin and all sin is an abomination to God, but there is hope.. hope in Jesus Christ who died for our sins.  :shrug:
What are you not getting here 2A?  The response you want to hear? That gay people should not even exist?  We are just not getting anywhere and again, we will have to agree to disagree.  You continue to use your Bible to your hearts content singling out all sinners for their sins and then berate them and condemn them and I'll continue to use mine for showing the love and compassion it teaches for ALL humanity.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> And if it is not pointed out, how are the supposed to know? Sharing of the scripture is how they will know. No other way. I have not bashed anyone. I have posted scripture. The Truth, scripture, is offensive to those that do not believe it. I am surprise at you taking offense at the Truth.



I don't take offense to the Truth   I take offense to those that talk about other people's sins more than their own.  Have you looked up to see what the Bible says about YOUR own sins half as much as you have looked up that of others?  Or half as much as you have looked up to rebuttal back for your argument and self-justificaiton for judging others? I think not.  I have absolutely zero qualms with the Bible or Truth.  I too am a Christian however I am a humble Christian.  Remember the beattitude - the meak shall inherit the earth :shrug:  You are by far (from my own judgements ) meak in your own sins and transgression, you appear to be more of Bible whipping - alienitistic zealot (didn't mean for that to sound so harsh, I know you are a good person and I love you  but that's the way you are coming across right now sweetie.  Again, judging people for their sins is between you and the Lord - not me, ok honey?  Love ya.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

nomoney said:
			
		

> can you answer that in english...so I don't have to read all that scripture? TIA.


That is English. That is one of the problems. Too many people want to get to heaven but they won't take the time to read the "instruction manual".

  Short version. To be saved, you must accept God's plan of salvation. That plan is admit you are a sinner, repent from your sin, accept God as man, Y'shua (we know Him as Jesus) as Savior and *Lord*. Repenting from sin is admitting the action, thought, whatever, is sin and *vowing not to do it again*. That does not mean you might not slip up again, but you will, if you are a Christian, repent again, and again, and again, until the Holy Spirit finally gets a hold of you strong enough that you don't do that sin again. Then God will start working on the next sin and eliminate that one.

  The passage from Matthew says there are lots of people that think they are going to heaven, even those that think they are saved, that are not. The passage from Corinthians lists a whole group of types of sinners that will not get into heaven unless they repent. Actually any sinner that is unrepentant will fall short. One sin is as bad as another in God's eyes. The chapter from Romans says that just because you have accepted Christ, you should not continue sinning.


----------



## K_Jo

Here's what I want to know:  If two men agree to fornicate and they're not raping each other and they're not forcing you to be gay with them, WHO THE HE!! CARES?????


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> You are gasping at straws and block copying things from the Bible... No one argued that you shouldn't strive to do the will of the father... but no matter how hard you try... you are still a sinner are you not? The Lord knows a person's heart better than you or I and it will be up to HIM to judge. All you are doing is perpetuating the fact that you try to do with will of the father... who's to say gay people dont as well? but with fewer gays being Christian, you'd think you'd reach out to them insteadof condemn. You're Bible is about love 2A - not about picking apart other people's flaws. Imagine a gay person that is lost 2A... what approach do you think will better to convert gayt peopld -- you're way -- YOU are an abomination to God!!! It says so!!! Right here!!! Go away!!! You don't belong with us "perfect" sinless Christians" or -- yes... we all sin and all sin is an abomination to God, but there is hope.. hope in Jesus Christ who died for our sins. :shrug:
> What are you not getting here 2A? The response you want to hear? That gay people should not even exist? We are just not getting anywhere and again, we will have to agree to disagree. You continue to use your Bible to your hearts content singling out all sinners for their sins and then berate them and condemn them and I'll continue to use mine for showing the love and compassion it teaches for ALL humanity.


What don't you understand that a repentant homosexual will not do the homosexual act again? If they are unrepentant, then they did not receive Christ in the first place. Sharing the Gospel and the Truth of the Bible is being compassionate. I would be remiss in my relationship with God to say to anyone,_ "Oh it's OK, God really doesn't care about that sin. We are all sinners anyway. You don't have to repent that one."_ Now wouldn't that be much more wrong? I would then be responsible for their continued practicing sin. I could be responsible for them going on the with the false belief. We are instructed as Christians not to do that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Here's what I want to know: If two men agree to fornicate and they're not raping each other and they're not forcing you to be gay with them, WHO THE HE!! CARES?????


No one in hell, but God, who is in heaven, does. Matter of fact, those already in hell are cheering them on.


----------



## nomoney

okay 2a; so the fruity's will go to hell; and you won't have to share your days of eternity with all the male interior decorators of the world....you'd think you'd just let them go and be merry instead of trying to convert them all


----------



## 2ndAmendment

nomoney said:
			
		

> okay 2a; so the fruity's will go to hell; and you won't have to share your days of eternity with all the male interior decorators of the world....you'd think you'd just let them go and be merry instead of trying to convert them all


The point is being missed by all those who don't want to or are blind to it. _*God does not want anyone to go to hell. *_Satan wants everyone to to go to hell. It is a Christian's duty to proclaim the word of God and the gospel, so that as many that are called will not go to hell.

   It is hard for me to think that my cousin, a homosexual that died of aids, is in hell. I would rather him be in heaven. If he repented his homosexuality, maybe he is. If he didn't, whether I like it or not, he is in hell.

   If, by proclaiming the word of God, the Holy Spirit snatches one more person from the grip of satan and hell to the kingdom of God, then I will take all the abuse from dems or anyone else on this board.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> What don't you understand that a repentant homosexual will not do the homosexual act again? If they are unrepentant, then they did not receive Christ in the first place. Sharing the Gospel and the Truth of the Bible is being compassionate. I would be remiss in my relationship with God to say to anyone,_ "Oh it's OK, God really doesn't care about that sin. We are all sinners anyway. You don't have to repent that one."_ Now wouldn't that be much more wrong? I would then be responsible for their continued practicing sin. I could be responsible for them going on the with the false belief. We are instructed as Christians not to do that.




2A -- maybe I'm rambling too much and you are loosing my point - all of us are sinners, no matter how may times we will repent in a lifetime... we are all born with a sin nature.  

btw, you never did answer my question about the crippled person... when you see him enter church do you immediately run up to them and spout scripture to that person about how they are defiling a church :shrug:


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> It is hard for me to think that my cousin, a homosexual that died of aids, is in hell. I would rather him be in heaven. If he repented his homosexuality, maybe he is. If he didn't, whether I like it or not, he is in hell.


He's not in hell, and God's probably pizzed at you right now.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If, by proclaiming the word of God, the Holy Spirit snatches one more person from the grip of satan and hell to the kingdom of God, then I will take all the abuse from dems or anyone else on this board.



2A -- I'll write slower this time..... you attract more flys with honey -- do you get my drift?  All you are doing is alienating homosexual people from Christianity with your brow beating.  Even various religions are even starting to allow and ordain ministers that are homosexual.

BTW, if you think this is abuse from me, you don't know me well...


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2A --  All you are doing is alienating homosexual people from Christianity with your brow beating.


No he's not.  They're smarter than that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2A -- maybe I'm rambling too much and you are loosing my point - all of us are sinners, no matter how may times we will repent in a lifetime... we are all born with a sin nature.
> 
> btw, you never did answer my question about the crippled person... when you see him enter church do you immediately run up to them and spout scripture to that person about how they are defiling a church :shrug:


Why do you always post such crap to me? I have prayed for several people that are crippled. I freely accept them or homosexuals as I would accept you. I have prayed for cripples and seen them walk again. God healed them.

   Yes, we are all sinners, repentant or unrepentant. If we are repentent, then we strive to obey God's will. If we are unrepentant, then, if we were to die unrepentant, we would go to hell.


----------



## dems4me

2A-   It is hard for me to think that my cousin, a homosexual that died of aids, is in hell. I would rather him be in heaven. If he repented his homosexuality, maybe he is. If he didn't, whether I like it or not, he is in hell

______________


Are you saying he should have said... I'm sorry dear Lord I am gay and that you have made me this way from birth?  Because I was born gay, I understand if you don't want me in heaven??  

2A - could you have had other issues with your cousin other than him being gay?  And thereby even after his death you are still trying to justify your anger and discontent with him but now using the Bible to continue your anger?  Are there other unresolved issues you have with him?


----------



## K_Jo

I'm confused.  Crippled people go to hell too?


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Why do you always post such crap to me? I have prayed for several people that are crippled. I freely accept them or homosexuals as I would accept you. I have prayed for cripples and seen them walk again. God healed them.
> 
> Yes, we are all sinners, repentant or unrepentant. If we are repentent, then we strive to obey God's will. If we are unrepentant, then, if we were to die unrepentant, we would go to hell.




I'm saying that Leveticus states that  crippled people are not to enter a church.  Not being mean and with all serious intent trying to understand you, but is hat one of those scriptures you just pick and choose from :shrug:


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  Crippled people go to hell too?




No, I'm pointing out that the Old Testament states they are not allowed in a church for whatever reason, we will never know.  Says nothing about them going to hell, just that they can't defile a church.


----------



## K_Jo

Sorry fellas...


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> No, I'm pointing out that the Old Testament states they are not allowed in a church for whatever reason, we will never know. Says nothing about them going to hell, just that they can't defile a church.


Oh.  Well that makes just as much sense to me.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Sorry fellas...






QUICK!!!!!  Bring out the guillotine!!!! Don't letl them get away!!!


----------



## aps45819

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  Crippled people go to hell too?


Step away from the Dems.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> No, I'm pointing out that the Old Testament states they are not allowed in a church for whatever reason, we will never know. Says nothing about them going to hell, just that they can't defile a church.


Boy have you taken that scripture out of context. This only applies to the priests of the temple.

 This is the chapter. 





> *Leviticus 21*
> 
> *Regulations concerning Priests*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3347">1</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: 'No one shall defile himself for a dead person among his people,     <sup id="en-NASB-3348">2</sup>except for his relatives who are nearest to him, his mother and his father and his son and his daughter and his brother,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3349">3</sup>also for his virgin sister, who is near to him because she has had no husband; for her he may defile himself.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3350">4</sup>'He shall not defile himself as a relative by marriage among his people, and so profane himself.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3351">5</sup>'They shall not make any baldness on their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cuts in their flesh.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3352">6</sup>'They shall be holy to their God and not profane the name of their God, for they present the offerings by fire to the LORD, the food of their God; so they shall be holy.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3353">7</sup>'They shall not take a woman who is profaned by harlotry, nor shall they take a woman divorced from her husband; for he is holy to his God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3354">8</sup>'You shall consecrate him, therefore, for he offers the food of your God; he shall be holy to you; for I the LORD, who sanctifies you, am holy.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3355">9</sup>'Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3356">10</sup>'The priest who is the highest among his brothers, on whose head the anointing oil has been poured and who has been consecrated to wear the garments, shall not uncover his head nor tear his clothes;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3357">11</sup>nor shall he approach any dead person, nor defile himself even for his father or his mother;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3358">12</sup>nor shall he go out of the sanctuary nor profane the sanctuary of his God, for the consecration of the anointing oil of his God is on him; I am the LORD.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3359">13</sup>'He shall take a wife in her virginity.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3360">14</sup>'A widow, or a divorced woman, or one who is profaned by harlotry, these he may not take; but rather he is to marry a virgin of his own people,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3361">15</sup>so that he will not profane his offspring among his people; for I am the LORD who sanctifies him.'"
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3362">16</sup>Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3363">17</sup>"Speak to Aaron, saying, 'No man of your offspring throughout their generations who has a defect shall approach to offer the food of his God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3364">18</sup>'For no one who has a defect shall approach: a blind man, or a lame man, or he who has a disfigured face, or any deformed limb,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3365">19</sup>or a man who has a broken foot or broken hand,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3366">20</sup>or a hunchback or a dwarf, or one who has a defect in his eye or eczema or scabs or crushed testicles.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3367">21</sup>'No man among the descendants of Aaron the priest who has a defect is to come near to offer the LORD'S offerings by fire; since he has a defect, he shall not come near to offer the food of his God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3368">22</sup>'He may eat the food of his God, both of the most holy and of the holy,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3369">23</sup>only he shall not go in to the veil or come near the altar because he has a defect, so that he will not profane My sanctuaries. For I am the LORD who sanctifies them.'"
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-3370">24</sup>So Moses spoke to Aaron and to his sons and to all the sons of Israel.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Oh.  Well that makes just as much sense to me.


Dems was very, very wrong on this.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Oh.  Well that makes just as much sense to me.




exactly... some laws were put in place back then for reasons we will never know... such as not having gay relationships (the earth was sparsly populated back then and gay people would have prohibited mans population - is my guess, just a guess)
There were laws about not having sex with a female while on her cycle... etc....  and others that didn't make sense, however in God's infinite wisdom they made sense at that time.  But that is just my opinion just the same as this one- Soddom and Gomorrah I still say and insist was about rape.  NO one knows all the answers.

What really gets me, is people that think they do, so much and so far as to cite everyone else's sins at a drop of a hat, cannot explain other things in the Bible.  They explain only things that suit their self-rationalized beliefs. :shrug:  If someone wants to compare homosexuality Romans in light of other scripture... old testament, then explain all the other statements in the old testament in light of New Testament scripture.  Either you are God and know all the answers in the Bible or you don't.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Dems was very, very wrong on this.


There's a first time for everything.


----------



## K_Jo

aps45819 said:
			
		

> Step away from the Dems.


  It would probably help if I read the whole thing, but I have a 25 word limit on post-reading.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> exactly... some laws were put in place back then for reasons we will never know... such as not having gay relationships (the earth was sparsly populated back then and gay people would have prohibited mans population - is my guess, just a guess)
> There were laws about not having sex with a female while on her cycle... etc.... and others that didn't make sense, however in God's infinite wisdom they made sense at that time. But that is just my opinion just the same as this one- Soddom and Gomorrah I still say and insist was about rape.
> 
> What gets me is people can hone in on one verse about homosexuality (Romans) and explain that until they are blue in the face but are quick to avoid explaining other things in the Bible. They explain only things that suit their self-rationalized beliefs. :shrug:


You keep saying only in Romans. You really don't know the Bible do you? I think you may be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Either that or you are homosexual. But that would amount to the same thing.


----------



## aps45819

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I think you may be a wolf in sheep's clothing.


Nope, she's really that dumb.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You keep saying only in Romans. You really don't know the Bible do you? I think you may be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Either that or you are homosexual. But that would amount to the same thing.


I've never been saved, but when they do that to you, do they suck your open-mindedness right out of your head and fill you with disdain for those unlike yourself?  Just curious.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You keep saying only in Romans. You really don't know the Bible do you? I think you may be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Either that or you are homosexual. But that would amount to the same thing.




You are referring back to Old Testament... New Testament is Romans where it concerns homosexuality.


----------



## dems4me

aps45819 said:
			
		

> Nope, she's really that dumb.




STFU - you don't even know me apswipe.


----------



## K_Jo

aps45819 said:
			
		

> Nope, she's really that dumb.


  This thread isn't about making fun of Dems.  It's about making fun of homosexuals.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I've never been saved, but when they do that to you, do they suck your open-mindedness right out of your head and fill you with disdain for those unlike yourself? Just curious.


No. I hope you will find Christ as Savior and Lord before you die.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Dems was very, very wrong on this.




Perhaps you were wrong yet again and cited the wrong scripture.  I don't have time right now to look up the exact verse, nor am I going to waste my time on it... You are just as much unbelievable as you are stubborn.


----------



## aps45819

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I've never been saved, but when they do that to you, do they suck your open-mindedness right out of your head and fill you with disdain for those unlike yourself?  Just curious.


Why yes they do. That's why a religion that preaches love and tolerance will tell you that their way is the _only_ way and that people that have never been exposed to their teachings are condemed for eternity.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> No. I hope you will find Christ as Savior and Lord before you die.





What makes you think she hasn't already?  She does not sound full of hatred and vile for fellow man?


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> No. I hope you will find Christ as Savior and Lord before you die.


  I'm Catholic so I can do whatever I want as long as I say I'm sorry.


----------



## K_Jo

aps45819 said:
			
		

> Why yes they do. That's why a religion that preaches love and tolerance will tell you that their way is the _only_ way and that people that have never been exposed to their teachings are condemed for eternity.


That's why I say God's gonna be pizzed.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> You are referring back to Old Testament... New Testament is Romans where it concerns homosexuality.


 Like I said. You don't bother to read what is posted or apparently the Bible. Try again. Reading for comprehension is your friend.

   Here is your Romans reference.





> *Romans 1:25-27
> *
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-27956">25</sup>For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.     <sup id="en-NASB-27957">26</sup>For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-27958">27</sup>and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


 Here is the reference in Corinthians for the forth time. I even included one more verse that indicate that some *former* people Paul was addressing were like those he described. 





> *1 Corinthians 6:8-11*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28476">8</sup>On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.     <sup id="en-NASB-28477">9</sup>Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28478">10</sup>nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28479">11</sup>Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


 And here is a section from 1 Timothy. 





> *1 Timothy 1:8-11*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29705">8</sup>But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29706">9</sup>realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29707">10</sup>and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29708">11</sup>according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I'm Catholic so I can do whatever I want as long as I say I'm sorry.


I would be careful with that kind of attitude. God does know the intentions of your heart.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Like I said. You don't bother to read what is posted or apparently the Bible. Try again. Reading for comprehension is your friend.
> 
> Here is your Romans reference. Here is the reference in Corinthians for the forth time. I even included one more verse that indicate that some *former* people Paul was addressing were like those he described.  And here is a section from 1 Timothy.





I disagree... I will need to look at the scripture in my Bible.. not one that you ahve altered or read into... nonetheless.  I still think its wrong to judge people and be the one to cast the first stone.... and that is what this thread is all about if you look at it that way... you find it 100% ok to belittle and berate gay people and then have the audacity to feel you can do so by using the Bible.  I think its absolutely 100% wrong.  Not only are you throwing the first stones, but you done knocked over your fellow breathren to grab their stones out of their hands so you can further keep throwing stones...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Perhaps you were wrong yet again and cited the wrong scripture. I don't have time right now to look up the exact verse, nor am I going to waste my time on it... You are just as much unbelievable as you are stubborn.


You apparently never have the time to look up any scripture. All I ever see from you is your opinion which is worthless in matters of scripture.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> STFU - you don't even know me apswipe.


Nice.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I would be careful with that kind of attitude. God does know the intentions of your heart.


So your church has also sucked the sense of humor right out of you.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> What makes you think she hasn't already? She does not sound full of hatred and vile for fellow man?


She said she was not saved. Being Catholic does not make you a Christian. You can be religious about anything including changing the oil in your car. Being a Christian is a personal relationship with Jesus.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You apparently never have the time to look up any scripture. All I ever see from you is *your opinion which is worthless* in matters of scripture.


I would be careful with that kind of attitude. God does know the intentions of your heart.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> She said she was not saved.


And?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I would be careful with that kind of attitude. God does know the intentions of your heart.





> 1 Timothy 1:4
> <sup id="en-NASB-29701">4</sup>nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.


No opinions matter. Only the word of God, the Bible, matters in regard to matters of faith and the scripture.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You apparently never have the time to look up any scripture. All I ever see from you is your opinion which is worthless in matters of scripture.




No 2A, the fact of the matter is - I spend more time looking up my ownshortcomings than choosing all the sins that I don't commit to pick and bash on.  I don't have time because I'm at work -- don't forget the scriptures about being a good worker too, lest I be a sinner in that area too.  I don't post from home so... there ya' have it.  I'm just doing what I recall while here at work and all the while... trying to work.  If I was well versed in the sins of everyone else but myself - as you appear to be, then I'd be posting exact references for scripture, not just pulling up a concordance and block copying what ever interpretation suits me to further bash those that have sins other than mine.


----------



## nomoney

dems4me said:
			
		

> No 2A, the fact of the matter is - I spend more time looking up my ownshortcomings than choosing all the sins that I don't commit to pick and bash on. I don't have time because I'm at work -- *don't forget the scriptures about being a good worker *too, lest I be a sinner in that area too. I don't post from home so... there ya' have it. I'm just doing what I recall while here at work and all the while... trying to work. If I was well versed in the sins of everyone else but myself - as you appear to be, then I'd be posting exact references for scripture, not just pulling up a concordance and block copying what ever interpretation suits me to further bash those that have sins other than mine.


 
why 2A; I do think she's calling you lazy........you gonna take that


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> I disagree... I will need to look at the scripture in my Bible.. not one that you ahve altered or read into... nonetheless. I still think its wrong to judge people and be the one to cast the first stone.... and that is what this thread is all about if you look at it that way... you find it 100% ok to belittle and berate gay people and then have the audacity to feel you can do so by using the Bible. I think its absolutely 100% wrong. Not only are you throwing the first stones, but you done knocked over your fellow breathren to grab their stones out of their hands so you can further keep throwing stones...


You keep saying I belittled or berated homosexuals. Where? Show it to me. Where?

  Homosexual acts are sin. Period.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> She said she was not saved. Being Catholic does not make you a Christian. You can be religious about anything including changing the oil in your car. Being a Christian is a personal relationship with Jesus.


*Christian: *

*1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. *

*2. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.*

There were more, but I chose the two that apply to me.  And Catholics are Christians.


----------



## AC/DC

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Homosexual acts are sin. Period.




So, it's the act that makes it bad or is it the same sex sex??


----------



## 2ndAmendment

nomoney said:
			
		

> why 2A; I do think she's calling you lazy........you gonna take that


 _dems4me  _                         Total Posts: *13,534* (27.67 posts per day)

_2ndAmendment  _                         Total Posts: *3,464* (3.64 posts per day)

  I rest my case.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> _1 Timothy 1:4
> <SUP id=en-NASB-29701>4</SUP>nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. _
> 
> No opinions matter. Only the word of God, the Bible, matters in regard to matters of faith and the scripture.


I think the quote started in the middle of a sentence so I didn't get the full effect, but if the bottom line is that your opinion doesn't matter, SWEEEEEET.


----------



## K_Jo

AC/DC said:
			
		

> So, it's the act that makes it bad or is it the same sex sex??


  And what about homosexuality in nature?  If it's so unnatural, why to the monkeys (from whom we evolved) do it?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> *Christian: *
> 
> *1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. *
> 
> *2. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.*
> 
> There were more, but I chose the two that apply to me. And Catholics are Christians.


Some Catholics are Christians. Just like some Pentecostals, some Lutherans, some Baptists, and some name a Christian church are Christians. Some are just members of the church and have no personal relationship with Christ which is the true meaning of being a Christian.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> And what about homosexuality in nature? If it's so unnatural, why to the monkeys (from whom we evolved) do it?


We did not evolve from the apes if you believe the Bible. As a Catholic Christian you do believe the Bible right?


----------



## nomoney

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> _dems4me _Total Posts: *13,534* (27.67 posts per day)
> 
> _2ndAmendment _Total Posts: *3,464* (3.64 posts per day)
> 
> I rest my case.


 
but how many posts do you have on your other forum


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> And?


Salvation is the first step in developing a relationship with Jesus the Christ. Without salvation, being saved, you have not even started the relationship with Christ or being a Christian.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

nomoney said:
			
		

> but how many posts do you have on your other forum


3770


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> _dems4me  _                         Total Posts: *13,534* (27.67 posts per day)
> 
> _2ndAmendment  _                         Total Posts: *3,464* (3.64 posts per day)
> 
> I rest my case.




I was saying me!!! NOt you -- I was implying I spend too much time on here at work as it is... not YOU.   

You belittle and berate gay people by condeming them to Hell.  I'm saying it is NOT your place to do so, but Gods.  You use your  Bible as your final authority to state they are going to Hell, and I use my Bible as the final authority that has a Jesus in it - one that has died for our sins and about the Bible being full of Love.  Whatever, we just go round and round on the issue.   You were correct though, I was wrong in on one thing... I thought the religious forum was supposed to be a place for peace, understanding, compassion, tolerance, acceptance and love for one another - not hatred and damning people to hell and then denying how that is belittling someone.  Whatever.  I'm moving on to the next forum on here  ... oddly enough titled "Recognizing a stroke" .


----------



## Sharon

dems4me said:
			
		

> I don't have time because I'm at work -- don't forget the scriptures about being a good worker too...
> 
> 
> I don't post from home so... there ya' have it.



Dems you're killing me today.


----------



## dems4me

Sharon said:
			
		

> Dems you're killing me today.





I wasn't trying to be funny.  

But,  I'm not perfect... and its an area I'm trying to improve on   I'm saying if I was to exert even more time yet still at work to look up exact scripture for this scripture slap fest, I'd be yet further sinning...


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> We did not evolve from the apes if you believe the Bible. As a Catholic Christian you do believe the Bible right?


No, I don't believe everything that's in the bible.  I believe in evolution.  That doesn't mean it wasn't God's idea, just that those seven days represented billions of years.  Just because my beliefs don't match yours, doesn't make you right and me wrong.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Salvation is the first step in developing a relationship with Jesus the Christ. Without salvation, being saved, you have not even started the relationship with Christ or being a Christian.


Interesting theory.


----------



## BuddyLee

1.  Why would God create homosexuals in the first place if they were to eventually end up in Hell?

2.  Why are the most religious of people the greatest judge of people?  Shouldn't this be a job for God and not themselves?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> I was saying me!!! NOt you -- I was implying I spend too much time on here at work as it is... not YOU.
> 
> You belittle and berate gay people by condeming them to Hell. I'm saying it is NOT your place to do so, but Gods. You use your Bible as your final authority to state they are going to Hell, and I use my Bible as the final authority that has a Jesus in it - one that has died for our sins and about the Bible being full of Love. Whatever, we just go round and round on the issue. You were correct though, I was wrong in on one thing... I thought the religious forum was supposed to be a place for peace, understanding, compassion, tolerance, acceptance and love for one another - not hatred and damning people to hell and then denying how that is belittling someone. Whatever. I'm moving on to the next forum on here ... oddly enough titled "Recognizing a stroke" .


 I judged no one. I repeated what the Bible says. I said a non repentant sinner, including homosexuals, will go to hell. Where did I condemn them to hell? That is not my job yet. I and other Christians will have that job someday since another word for Christian is saint, but not now. 





> *1 Corinthians 6*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28469">1</sup>Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? <sup id="en-NASB-28470">2</sup>_*Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?*_ If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28471">3</sup>Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?


----------



## AC/DC

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> 1.  Why would God create homosexuals in the first place if they were to eventually end up in Hell?




Queer bait............


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Where did I condemn them to hell? That is not my job yet. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 2A - you are starting to scare me.  Are you ok?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> No, I don't believe everything that's in the bible. I believe in evolution. That doesn't mean it wasn't God's idea, just that those seven days represented billions of years. Just because my beliefs don't match yours, doesn't make you right and me wrong.


Yep. There we have another problem. People want to go to heaven, but the don't believe God's word.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I condemn them to hell? That is not my job yet. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 2A - you are starting to scare me. Are you ok?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm fine. You don't like the Bible? That's pretty bad for an avowed Christian.
Click to expand...


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I'm fine. You don't like the Bible? That's pretty bad for an avowed Christian.




No, I just don't understand the part you are reading where you eventually become God... you said its not your place to damn homosexuals to hell "YET"..:shrug:


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Yep. There we have another problem. People want to go to heaven, but the don't believe God's word.


1.  _We_ don't have a problem.

2.  I'm not whining about getting into heaven.  :shrug:  I'll be just fine.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> 1.  Why would God create homosexuals in the first place if they were to eventually end up in Hell?
> 
> 2. Why are the most religious of people the greatest judge of people? Shouldn't this be a job for God and not themselves?


Actually the Bible says that God created both the righteous and the unrighteous. Ask God. According to scripture, many who we come in contact with on earth on look human but are not. They are demons or angles. Could it be that demons lure people into sin? They sure want company in hell.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> 1.  _We_ don't have a problem.
> 
> 2.  I'm not whining about getting into heaven.  :shrug:  I'll be just fine.




Don't know... anytime you disagree with 2A on here. you are being damned to hell... :shrug:  or at least not YET.... 



2A, I take stabs at you just the same as you take them at me.  We are both Christian, just the same as KJO is too and Nomoney (nevermind, she's too broke )  I still love ya  and every now and then I enjoy a discussion that does't reflect any of my opinions formed over the past 35 years.  Where would the world be if we all thought alike?  Its refreshing!


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Actually the Bible says that God created both the righteous and the unrighteous. Ask God. According to scripture, many who we come in contact with on earth on look human but are not. They are demons or angles. Could it be that demons lure people into sin? They sure want company in hell.




It also says demons are very well versed in scripture too :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> No, I just don't understand the part you are reading where you eventually become God... you said its not your place to damn homosexuals to hell "YET"..:shrug:


Did you read the quote? Again, I guess not. I am not assuming God's role. The Bible says that the saints, Christians, will judge the world. You must have an aversion to reading scripture. There come those wolf suspicions again.


----------



## BuddyLee

dems4me said:
			
		

> It also says demons are very well versed in scripture too :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Don't know... anytime you disagree with 2A on here. you are being damned to hell... :shrug:  or at least not YET....
> 
> 
> 
> 2A, I take stabs at you just the same as you take them at me. We are both Christian, just the same as KJO is too and Nomoney (nevermind, she's too broke )  I still love ya  and every now and then I enjoy a discussion that does't reflect any of my opinions formed over the past 35 years. Where would the world be if we all thought alike? Its refreshing!


I would wish that all would be Christians. Sadly, according to the Bible, most are not and will not be.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Did you read the quote? Again, I guess not. I am not assuming God's role. The Bible says that the saints, Christians, will judge the world. You must have an aversion to reading scripture. There come those wolf suspicions again.




If you are referring to Revelations... no one understands that fully - ask any pastor or minister, etc... I don't believe that Christians will judge the earth, afterall they are not supposed to judge people, especially while up in Heaven.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> It also says demons are very well versed in scripture too :shrug:


That is true. But demons won't be using scripture to try to bring others to Truth. They will distort it so that you will believe that it is OK to sin.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I would wish that all would be Christians. Sadly, according to the Bible, most are not and will not be.




Then why do you try to push folks that are not Christian away and continually make it appear to be an elite hip club to belong to.  Again, you are going about this with the wrong approach.  I'm not trying to be funny or anything but when you read the Bible do you ever get an inordinate amount of Love message in there - or do you just focus on the condemnation in it? Do you believe that if you fall down the stairs, its God punishing you?  Do you believe in God being a big mean kill-joy in life? Or do you see God as you would a father... you wrong a father as in here on earth but he has unconditional love for you.  ?


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> That is true. But demons won't be using scripture to try to bring others to Truth. They will distort it so that you will believe that it is OK to sin.




Yes - you are correct... there is no such thing as Jesus, Love and forgiveness - what Bible was I reading!! :whacksforhead:.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> If you are referring to Revelations... no one understands that fully - ask any pastor or minister, etc... I don't believe that Christians will judge the earth, afterall they are not supposed to judge people, especially while up in Heaven.


 Do you read? Remember, reading for comprehension is your friend.

     I never referred to the book of Revelations anywhere in this thread. 

     Here is the quote for the second time. See if you can get it.





> *1 Corinthians 6*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28469">1</sup>Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? <sup id="en-NASB-28470">2</sup>_*Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?*_ If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28471">3</sup>Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?


 Do you see where it says *1 Corinthians 6*?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Yes - you are correct... there is no such thing as Jesus, Love and forgiveness - what Bible was I reading!! :whacksforhead:.


Where have I ever, ever said that? Where?


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Do you read? Remember, reading for comprehension is your friend.
> 
> I never referred to the book of Revelations anywhere in this thread.
> 
> Here is the quote for the second time. See if you can get it. Do you see where it says *1 Corinthians 6*?




Yes Saints -- are you a Saint?  Afterall you have already admitted to having sins.  Do you really believe that you as a Christian and being frought with sin will be in heavan and in charge of casting the first stones at others - that again is a smack in the face for all the other scripture about not judging, casting the first stone, etc... the Bible nowhere says... do not judge, lest ye be judged, only until you reach heaven and then you become a saint and then and only then can judge until the cows come home.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Where have I ever, ever said that? Where?




Read over your own posts, after all you know me.. I have reading incomprehension and need things highlighed in red and in large print... if you wrote it and can't remember it - then how in the heck am I going to be able to help you :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Then why do you try to push folks that are not Christian away and continually make it appear to be an elite hip club to belong to. Again, you are going about this with the wrong approach. I'm not trying to be funny or anything but when you read the Bible do you ever get an inordinate amount of Love message in there - or do you just focus on the condemnation in it? Do you believe that if you fall down the stairs, its God punishing you? Do you believe in God being a big mean kill-joy in life? Or do you see God as you would a father... you wrong a father as in here on earth but he has unconditional love for you. ?


I do not try to push anyone away. I also do not try to candy coat the Bible like you do. I use scripture, not my opinion, to proclaim God's word. God has rewarded me greatly. If you bothered to read your Bible, you would find there is much more said about the wrath that will befall sinners and that there is nowhere that anyone is given a free ride just because.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."  John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."​  It doesn't say that you can get there through Buddha or Allah or being a sinner. God freely gives us salvation. We have to accept it. The gift of salvation is free. He chose to die on a cross for our sins. That is true love, to lay down your life for another. He rose from the dead as a promise of eternal life. There is no middle ground. God way or not; Heaven or hell, the choice belongs to each of us.

 You say He has unconditional love. I see where He has undying love for us. I see where He has eternal love for us. I also see where He places conditions on entrance into His kingdom and salvation. You don't get in without believing in and accepting God as man, Y'shua, Jesus, as Savior and Lord.  Just read the gospels dems. Just read. Don't skim. Don't speed read. Read for comprehension. Maybe then you will get it.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I do not try to push anyone away. I also do not try to candy coat the Bible like you do. I use scripture, not my opinion, to proclaim God's word. God has rewarded me greatly. If you bothered to read your Bible, you would find there is much more said about the wrath that will befall sinners and that there is nowhere that anyone is given a free ride just because.
> 
> John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."  John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."​  It doesn't say that you can get there through Buddha or Allah or being a sinner. God freely gives us salvation. We have to accept it. The gift of salvation is free. He chose to die on a cross for our sins. That is true love, to lay down your life for another. He rose from the dead as a promise of eternal life. There is no middle ground. God way or not; Heaven or hell, the choice belongs to each of us.
> 
> You say He has unconditional love. I see where He has undying love for us. I see where He has eternal love for us. I also see where He places conditions on entrance into His kingdom and salvation. You don't get in without believing in and accepting God as man, Y'shua, Jesus, as Savior and Lord.  Just read the gospels dems. Just read. Don't skim. Don't speed read. Read for comprehension. Maybe then you will get it.




It does not say in that passage that you can't get through heaven if you are a Christian but gay. :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Yes Saints -- are you a Saint? Afterall you have already admitted to having sins. Do you really believe that you as a Christian and being frought with sin will be in heavan and in charge of casting the first stones at others - that again is a smack in the face for all the other scripture about not judging, casting the first stone, etc... the Bible nowhere says... do not judge, lest ye be judged, only until you reach heaven and then you become a saint and then and only then can judge until the cows come home.


Again, it is apparent you do not read the Bible. The Christians are called saints. Being a saint does not mean you are sinless. It means you are a Christian. You would misunderstand that because of your Catholic background and the conferring of sainthood by Catholics, which is nowhere to be found in the Bible.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Again, it is apparent you do not read the Bible. The Christians are called saints. Being a saint does not mean you are sinless. It means you are a Christian. You would misunderstand that because of your Catholic background and the conferring of sainthood by Catholics, which is nowhere to be found in the Bible.





Again, it is apparent that you don't read the Bible and compare scripture in light of other scripture.  (FORGIVENESS, LOVE, TOLERANCE, UNDERSTANDING, ACCEPTANCE, CHARITY, WITNESSING AND TESTIFYING - NOT JUDGING OTHRES AND THEN IF THEY DISAGREE STATE - SURELY THEY DON'T READ THE BIBLE BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THE EXACT SAME INTEREPRETATION)

Also, no one said I was Catholic... you presumed that and I just didn't feel lik arguing.  Yes, I do read the Bible, I just make sure to also bear in mind the scripture that says "do not lean unto thy own understanding" that is all you do in the bible.   You use the Bible as a weapon instead of something to bridge gaps and make peace.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Disciples of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch. You are a disciple of Christ if you are follower of Christ. Believers in Christ are called saints in Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Philemon, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. You would know that if you read your Bible. It was more common to call the followers of Christ, saints than it was to call them Christians. The term Christian was often a derogatory term when it was first used.


> *Acts 11:25-27 *
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-27333">25</sup>And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul;     <sup id="en-NASB-27334">26</sup>and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-27335">27</sup>Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> It does not say in that passage that you can't get through heaven if you are a Christian but gay. :shrug:


Wolf!


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wolf!




Stop being the boy that cries wolf...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Calling you a Catholic was presumption on my part. You did say you had an uncle that was a Catholic brother. Catholicism tends to run in families.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Stop being the boy that cries wolf...


If it prowls like a wolf and howls like a wolf, it is probably a wolf even if it put on sheep skin.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Calling you a Catholic was presumption on my part. You did say you had an uncle that was a Catholic brother. Catholicism tends to run in families.



What are you talking about?  My uncles on my fathrs side are all dead - one died at 37 from a brian tumor and the other at the age 12 from falling off of a monkey bar and breaking his neck before I was born   And  the uncles on my mothers side don't talk about religion and are not catholic.  My fathers side is all Irish Catholic but it doesn't necessarily by family make me one... its not like being Jewish or something :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? My uncles on my fathrs side are all dead - one died at 37 from a brian tumor and the other at the age 12 from falling off of a monkey bar and breaking his neck before I was born  And the uncles on my mothers side don't talk about religion and are not catholic. My fathers side is all Irish Catholic but it doesn't necessarily by family make me one... its not like being Jewish or something :shrug:


Another oops. It was pegsters uncle. You just quoted her.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Another oops. It was pegsters uncle. You just quoted her.




That's fine - we are not perfect.  

just like the saying on bumper stickers


Just because we are Christian does not mean we are prefect but that we are forgiven


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Did you read the quote? Again, I guess not. I am not assuming God's role. The Bible says that the saints, Christians, will judge the world. You must have an aversion to reading scripture. There come those wolf suspicions again.


Doesn't the Koran say the same thing for the Muslims?  You must have an aversion to reading the Koran.

And whatever religion you are, and whatever you read for a scripture, don't they ALL say that?

So it really has nothing to do with christianity, just the belief that becasue I am 'X' faith I will have dominion over those of 'Y' and 'Z' faith..  

The catholics believe they are the one true religion on the planet, the Mormons do too.. and so do the Muslims, and Buddhists.. and even the MOONIES!  SO which one is right, who's scripture is truer then the other?


----------



## dems4me

itsbob said:
			
		

> Doesn't the Koran say the same thing for the Muslims?  You must have an aversion to reading the Koran.
> 
> And whatever religion you are, and whatever you read for a scripture, don't they ALL say that?
> 
> So it really has nothing to do with christianity, just the belief that becasue I am 'X' faith I will have dominion over those of 'Y' and 'Z' faith..
> 
> The catholics believe they are the one true religion on the planet, the Mormons do too.. and so do the Muslims, and Buddhists.. and even the MOONIES!  SO which one is right, who's scripture is truer then the other?




personally, I go by historical evidence, arechalogical evidence, manuscript evidence, etc...  jmo.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

itsbob said:
			
		

> Doesn't the Koran say the same thing for the Muslims?  You must have an aversion to reading the Koran.
> 
> And whatever religion you are, and whatever you read for a scripture, don't they ALL say that?
> 
> So it really has nothing to do with christianity, just the belief that becasue I am 'X' faith I will have dominion over those of 'Y' and 'Z' faith..
> 
> The catholics believe they are the one true religion on the planet, the Mormons do too.. and so do the Muslims, and Buddhists.. and even the MOONIES! SO which one is right, who's scripture is truer then the other?


Are you interested in reality, or are you just here to make trouble like normal?


----------



## itsbob

dems4me said:
			
		

> personally, I go by historical evidence, arechalogical evidence, manuscript evidence, etc...  jmo.


and so, which one according to all this evidence is true?  Which is the ONE true religion, that is more right and better then eveyone else's??

The one that doesnt eat pork?  The one that bathes in cow urine?  The one that has "celibate" priests and nuns?  The one that in the past allowed plural marriages, as did society in biblical times? The one that doesn't believe in modern day medicine?  The one that doesn't use electricity?
The one that carves monuments and statues of sea-gulls?


----------



## dems4me

itsbob said:
			
		

> and so, which one according to all this evidence is true?  Which is the ONE true religion, that is more right and better then eveyone else's??
> 
> The one that doesnt eat pork?  The one that bathes in cow urine?  The one that has "celibate" priests and nuns?  The one that in the past allowed plural marriages, as did society in biblical times? The one that doesn't believe in modern day medicine?  The one that doesn't use electricity?
> The one that carves monuments and statues of sea-gulls?



You obviously have your mind made up and are just looking for a heated spiratual debate... although 2A and I are Christian we just disagree on "inhouse" things... we don't disagree entirely with the fundamentals of Christianity, etc... he discusses his point and I discuss mine. You on the other hand, I can't help but feel are trying to set up a big debate between believers and nonbelievers... its called shiatstirring and board lady Vria doesn't like that in the religious forums...


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Are you interested in reality, or are you just here to make trouble like normal?


Just what I believe.. more people have killed and died in the name of God then for any other reason.. Like 5 year olds fighting on a playground, "MY God is better then your God."  

EVERY body of organized religion believes they are the only true religion, and everyone else will suffer for their false beliefs.  Even though chistianity is supposed to foster humanity and compassion, how many millions of died for not being christian, or even not being christian enough?

Not a sermon, just a thought!!


----------



## dems4me

itsbob said:
			
		

> Just what I believe.. more people have killed and died in the name of God then for any other reason.. Like 5 year olds fighting on a playground, "MY God is better then your God."
> 
> EVERY body of organized religion believes they are the only true religion, and everyone else will suffer for their false beliefs.  Even though chistianity is supposed to foster humanity and compassion, how many millions of died for not being christian, or even not being christian enough?
> 
> Not a sermon, just a thought!!




Well people die all the time, every day, etc... all from causes different from others :shrug:  Don't hone in on the word Christian and instead hone on the word automobile accidents, murders, overdoses, suicides, etc... and I'm sure you will find that people die from those as well.  As for being Christian and knowing you are saved is something you feel in your heart without any doubts in my opinion.


----------



## itsbob

dems4me said:
			
		

> You obviously have your mind made up and are just looking for a heated spiratual debate... although 2A and I are Christian we just disagree on "inhouse" things... we don't disagree entirely with the fundamentals of Christianity, etc... he discusses his point and I discuss mine. You on the other hand, I can't help but feel are trying to set up a big debate between believers and nonbelievers... its called shiatstirring and board lady Vria doesn't like that in the religious forums...


Not stirring the pot.. just asking a question.. according to all the evidence which one is the TRUE church..


----------



## 2ndAmendment

itsbob said:
			
		

> Just what I believe.. more people have killed and died in the name of God then for any other reason.. Like 5 year olds fighting on a playground, "MY God is better then your God."
> 
> EVERY body of organized religion believes they are the only true religion, and everyone else will suffer for their false beliefs. Even though chistianity is supposed to foster humanity and compassion, how many millions of died for not being christian, or even not being christian enough?
> 
> Not a sermon, just a thought!!


I think it does not matter what anyone posts back to you. There will be no discussion. Just openings for your barbs. Thanks but no thanks. You know where I hang out IRL. If you are really interested in discussing this, I will be happy to, but I am not here for your board entertainment.


----------



## itsbob

dems4me said:
			
		

> Well people die all the time, every day, etc... all from causes different from others :shrug:  Don't hone in on the word Christian and instead hone on the word automobile accidents, murders, overdoses, suicides, etc... and I'm sure you will find that people die from those as well.  As for being Christian and knowing you are saved is something you feel in your heart without any doubts in my opinion.


Point taken, but have you ever heard of anyone racing across an open battlefiled screaming....


"In the name of FORD!!"


----------



## dems4me

itsbob said:
			
		

> Point taken, but have you ever heard of anyone racing across an open battlefiled screaming....
> 
> 
> "In the name of FORD!!"




Sure all the time at nascar races.... 


I too will decline to exchange barbs with you.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Don't bother Dems. He is really not interested in your point of view.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Don't bother Dems. He is really not interested in your point of view.


You guys are NO fun!

But alas, have a great night..


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Don't bother Dems. He is really not interested in your point of view.





Has that yet to stop me on ANY of these forums?
:  


I am in agreement with you, its not worth the effort to get all riled uop with shiatstirrn' shiat'sBob


----------



## Hessian

Hessian here...
Looks like mostly a banter between exact interpretation and Feel-Good theology.

Lets get back to the original debate:
Gay Pastors: Wrong.-Period,...no room for "well,... they are compassionate"
or "They have a fuller understanding of the Love toward all people" or "They are only acting on what God made them..."

WRONG. As 2ndA has reinterated time & again is that one should not be captive to the sins of this world--they clearly are. How would they counsel a young man if he's questioning his "orientation?"

"Go with the lusts of your heart my son and find your true identity,..God cares and wants you to feel fulfilled."
OH???? whatever happened to forsaking ALL...and having a pure heart???

This is a poison...a fraud...an intentional twisting of what should be a Holy calling into a mockery!

NEXT issue
What happens in a persons bedroom is their own private matter? OH?
And this is the same God who knows all, sees all? What...he can't see what happens behind closed doors? What God finds abhorrent, we shouldn't dismiss as a "private matter."


Last Issue.
2ndA has desperately tried to point out that he is NOT picking & choosing, NOT twisting different versions of scripture...and has gone gently with those that say..."well I feel..." Those words make me want to boldly say...

WRONG! When we collapse into the pathetic void of "I feel..." we are making our worthless emotions the judge of behavior. 

"Gee,...he died from Aids but he was such a caring person! I "know" God loved and accepted him and took him to heaven...I feel the same way too."

WRONG!....did Biffy repent of his sins...recognize Christ as his true savior,...and live his life as a vessel for God's use???? 
Or was he still a corrupt little weasel who wanted people to "accept" him for "what he was" and threw in a sprinkle of Christianity to get sympathy and free care??
Being good, caring, being tender...being MOTHER Theresa does NOT get you  salvation--and if you believe otherwise -you are rejecting:
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life....NO man commeth to the Father but by Me."...if you think that that was too narrow, or He was just mistranslated: you are dead wrong in two ways.


----------



## Railroad

Hessian said:
			
		

> Hessian here...
> Looks like mostly a banter between exact interpretation and Feel-Good theology.
> 
> Lets get back to the original debate:
> Gay Pastors: Wrong.-Period,...no room for "well,... they are compassionate"
> or "They have a fuller understanding of the Love toward all people" or "They are only acting on what God made them..."
> 
> WRONG. As 2ndA has reinterated time & again is that one should not be captive to the sins of this world--they clearly are. How would they counsel a young man if he's questioning his "orientation?"
> 
> "Go with the lusts of your heart my son and find your true identity,..God cares and wants you to feel fulfilled."
> OH???? whatever happened to forsaking ALL...and having a pure heart???
> 
> This is a poison...a fraud...an intentional twisting of what should be a Holy calling into a mockery!
> 
> NEXT issue
> What happens in a persons bedroom is their own private matter? OH?
> And this is the same God who knows all, sees all? What...he can't see what happens behind closed doors? What God finds abhorrent, we shouldn't dismiss as a "private matter."
> 
> 
> Last Issue.
> 2ndA has desperately tried to point out that he is NOT picking & choosing, NOT twisting different versions of scripture...and has gone gently with those that say..."well I feel..." Those words make me want to boldly say...
> 
> WRONG! When we collapse into the pathetic void of "I feel..." we are making our worthless emotions the judge of behavior.
> 
> "Gee,...he died from Aids but he was such a caring person! I "know" God loved and accepted him and took him to heaven...I feel the same way too."
> 
> WRONG!....did Biffy repent of his sins...recognize Christ as his true savior,...and live his life as a vessel for God's use????
> Or was he still a corrupt little weasel who wanted people to "accept" him for "what he was" and threw in a sprinkle of Christianity to get sympathy and free care??
> Being good, caring, being tender...being MOTHER Theresa does NOT get you salvation--and if you believe otherwise -you are rejecting:
> "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life....NO man commeth to the Father but by Me."...if you think that that was too narrow, or He was just mistranslated: you are dead wrong in two ways.


Thank you, thank you, and THANK YOU!!!!  Excellent summary, and excellent statement of the TRUTH!!!!  :


----------



## Chasey_Lane

Railroad said:
			
		

> Thank you, thank you, and THANK YOU!!!!  Excellent summary, and excellent statement of the TRUTH!!!!  :


Oh, please! How many of you literary bible thumpers is actually following Gods Doctrine to the last word?  None of you, so enough with the hypocricies.


----------



## Railroad

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Oh, please! How many of you literary bible thumpers is actually following Gods Doctrine to the last word? None of you, so enough with the hypocricies.


No hypocricy here - I'm human and I sin.  I also try my darnedest not to.  I haven't condemned anyone, and haven't judged anyone.  And I don't appreciate the "literary Bible thumpers" remark.  I haven't called you any names, and if you have to resort to that, then we're clearly nearing the end of the supposedly grown-up discusion, because in the end, people start name-calling because they're out of legitimate arguments.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

Railroad said:
			
		

> And I don't appreciate the "literary Bible thumpers" remark.  I haven't called you any names


I didn't single you out in the name-calling; it was a "generalized" remark. And even if I had, I don't see it as a "bad" annotation.


----------



## Railroad

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> I didn't single you out in the name-calling; it was a "generalized" remark. And even if I had, I don't see it as a "bad" annotation.





> and if you have to resort to that, then we're clearly nearing the end of the supposedly grown-up discusion, because in the end, people start name-calling because they're out of legitimate arguments.


 <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


----------



## Chasey_Lane

RR, speaking of "legitimate" arguments...


----------



## Chasey_Lane

morganj614 said:
			
		

> :smacksmack: Railroad my dear friend...You have this habit of wanting threads to disappear just because...*STOP IT*


God has no reign over this thread; carry on...


----------



## SmallTown

It is interesting to see how "god's thinking" changed over time, which is unusual based on our normal interpretation of God.
For example:
Lev. 20:10 "`If a man commits *adultery* with another man's wife --with the wife of his neighbor --both the *adulterer* and the *adulteress* must be put to death. 
And actually, the original punishment was more specifically stoning. Stoning is an obvious human tactic, God had other ways to destroy people when he wanted. But then again, who would be able to say that this person should be put to death?

And then In Chapter 8 of John in the new Testament we have the notorious "cast the first stone" dialog:


<DD>Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 
<DT>*8:2* <DD>And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 
<DT>*8:3* <DD>And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 
<DT>*8:4* <DD>They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 
<DT>*8:5* <DD>Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 
<DT>*8:6* <DD>This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 
<DT>*8:7* <DD>So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 
<DT>*8:8* <DD>And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 
<DT>*8:9* <DD>And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 
<DT>*8:10* <DD>When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 
<DT>*8:11* <DD>She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.</DD>


----------



## Railroad

morganj614 said:
			
		

> :smacksmack: Railroad my dear friend...You have this habit of wanting threads to disappear just because...*STOP IT*


You're right, Morgie.  But:

[Rant] Well I mean *REALLY* - *8 pages* for people to say whether or not they think a gay should be a preacher? This could have been a simple yes/no/maybe Poll.  Does anyone *SERIOUSLY *think that any one post in this thread is going to change anybody?  Making one's point once should be enough. This is as bad as the Ken King thing, or before that Terry Schiavo.  One would think we could have a little more variety than beating the same thing to death, day after day.  And this discussion in particular has been chasing its tail for DAYS.  Round and round the same two or three ideas, day after day.  We've worn a HOLE in this thread. I'm reminded of the Monty Python skit about the dead budgie - the man trying to explain to the pet shop owner that the bird was dead. And I, like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football, can't seem to turn my back on  this dang thing anymore than the rest of ya! [/Rant]


----------



## Railroad

SmallTown said:
			
		

> It is interesting to see


Dude, what is this, replay?!  Uggh - I've had enough.  Got REAL things to do.


----------



## SmallTown

Railroad said:
			
		

> Uggh - I've had enough. Got REAL things to do.


Got another woman to fawn over and then apologize so you can still get into heaven?


----------



## K_Jo




----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Oh, please! How many of you literary bible thumpers is actually following Gods Doctrine to the last word? None of you, so enough with the hypocricies.


You have no idea how I live my life do you? How would you know whether I am hypocritical or not? You would not. You can ask Sharon. I live what I speak or post. I, like all humans, sin. The difference between someone who has a relationship with Christ and someone who does not is I know when I sin. I hurt when I do, and I repent that sin. I believe every word of the Bible.

   God gave us free will. All of this life is vanity and futility except choosing to fear and obey God. Solomon said many years ago in Ecclesiastes. You choose to obey God or you  choose to disobey God. Your choice. You get what follows at the end of your days on earth; heaven or hell. You choose.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> God has no reign over this thread; carry on...


God has reign over everything.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> God has reign over everything.


I don't think he does.  My opinion can differ from yours and it's still right.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

SmallTown said:
			
		

> Got another woman to fawn over and then apologize so you can still get into heaven?


Even looking on someone who is not your spouse with sexual thoughts is sin, because sin starts in the hearts and minds of people. 





> *Matthew 5:27-29
> *
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23262">27</sup>"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';     <sup id="en-NASB-23263">28</sup>but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23264">29</sup>"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> I don't think he does.  My opinion can differ from yours and it's still right.


Only in your eyes.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Only in your eyes.


Exactly, point proven!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Exactly, point proven!


Oh, I forgot, and only on this earth in this lifetime. At the end of your life, whether you believe or not, you will be righteously judged and receive your due reward; eternal life in heaven or eternal torment in hell. Choose wisely.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Even looking on someone who is not your spouse with sexual thoughts is sin, because sin starts in the hearts and minds of people.


Then I guess I better have my husband neutered.


----------



## kwillia

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Then I guess I better have my husband neutered.


"Says the married lady with Pete-o-phile in her title"


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Oh, I forgot, and only on this earth in this lifetime. At the end of your life, whether you believe or not, you will be righteously judged and receive your due reward; eternal life in heaven or eternal torment in hell. Choose wisely.


Where do I get to spend eternity for sending bad karma? I mean, isn't the intent to hurt someone?


----------



## K_Jo

kwillia said:
			
		

> "Says the married lady with Pete-o-phile in her title"


  I guess all the porn is bad, too?  :sad:


----------



## K_Jo

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Where do I get to spend eternity for sending bad karma? I mean, isn't the intent to hurt someone?


You just have to say you're sorry. Like this:  

I think your posts suck and you are stupid. I'm sorry. Love, Chasey.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You just have to say you're sorry. Like this:
> 
> I think your posts suck and you are stupid. I'm sorry. Love, Chasey.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Where do I get to spend eternity for sending bad karma? I mean, isn't the intent to hurt someone?


Karma does not matter. Didn't you know that?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I guess all the porn is bad, too?  :sad:


Yes.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Karma does not matter. Didn't you know that?


I do; I don't send harassing PM's to forumites about it. :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

I know that K_Jo and Chasey are doing this just to cause discord. It will not matter in the least what I reply, because they have no understanding of spiritual matters or they would not be posting what they do. So to you two, I say bye.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I know that K_Jo and Chasey are doing this just to cause discord. It will not matter in the least what I reply, because they have no understanding of spiritual matters or they would not be posting what they do. So to you two, I say bye.


How can you make a statement like that?  To me, religion is a personal thing, so you wouldn't know anything about my understanding of spiritual matters.  You just think I'm wrong because I don't agree with you.

Oh, and 
Go Chasey!    Go Chasey!   Go Chasey!


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Yes.


That's not possible.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Oh, I forgot, and only on this earth in this lifetime. At the end of your life, whether you believe or not, you will be righteously judged and receive your due reward; eternal life in heaven or eternal torment in hell. Choose wisely.



Not necessarily so.. there are two unforgivable sins.. Murdering another and suicide.  You will be given the opportunity to repent for your sins prior to "eternal torment", being that God is humane, compassionate and forgiving, he knows we are weak and apt to sin.

Some believe there are different levels of heaven, again difference of religion..  depending on how you lived your life will determine what level of glory you will attain for eternity.  Only those that refuse to accept christ and repent AFTER death will be sent to hell (and the aforementioned murderers and suicides)


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I know that K_Jo and Chasey are doing this just to cause discord. It will not matter in the least what I reply, because they have no understanding of spiritual matters or they would not be posting what they do. So to you two, I say bye.




Hey 2A, not to rehash any debates from yesterday but I thought you might get a kick out of this... this morning I was driving in to work and was thinking about our discussion on here, as I'm open minded and tenderhearted and thinking about everything said yesterday.... than when in doubt, I use my WWJD anaylsis... I said yep!!! Jesus would of spent all day on the computer at somd.com forums debatting back and forth  :  Have a good day


----------



## Chasey_Lane

Go, K_Jo!  Go, K_Jo!  Go, Chasey & K_Jo!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

itsbob said:
			
		

> Not necessarily so.. there are two unforgivable sins.. Murdering another and suicide. You will be given the opportunity to repent for your sins prior to "eternal torment", being that God is humane, compassionate and forgiving, he knows we are weak and apt to sin.
> 
> Some believe there are different levels of heaven, again difference of religion.. depending on how you lived your life will determine what level of glory you will attain for eternity. Only those that refuse to accept christ and repent AFTER death will be sent to hell (and the aforementioned murderers and suicides)


Wrong! According to the Bible the *only* sin that is unforgivable is blashphemy against the Holy Spirit. 





> *Matthew 12:30-32
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *The Unpardonable Sin*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23520">30</sup>"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.     <sup id="en-NASB-23521">31</sup>"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23522">32</sup>"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Hey 2A, not to rehash any debates from yesterday but I thought you might get a kick out of this... this morning I was driving in to work and was thinking about our discussion on here, as I'm open minded and tenderhearted and thinking about everything said yesterday.... than when in doubt, I use my WWJD anaylsis... I said yep!!! Jesus would of spent all day on the computer at somd.com forums debatting back and forth :  Have a good day


Wolf.



> *Matthew 7:13-23*
> 
> *The Narrow and Wide Gates*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23330">13</sup>"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.     <sup id="en-NASB-23331">14</sup>"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
> 
> *A Tree and Its Fruit*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23332">15</sup>"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.     <sup id="en-NASB-23333">16</sup>"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23334">17</sup>"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23335">18</sup>"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23336">19</sup>"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23337">20</sup>"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23338">21</sup>"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23339">22</sup>"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23340">23</sup>"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wrong! According to the Bible the *only* sin that is unforgivable is blashphemy against the Holy Spirit.







THat is the ONLY unforgivable sin.


2A, don't waste  your time on this today.  Its a nice day outside - sometimes folks just like to egg each other on.


----------



## KCM

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wolf.


Why do you keep calling Dems "Wolf"??


----------



## dems4me

KCM said:
			
		

> Why do you keep calling Dems "Wolf"??




He's inferring that I am a wolf in sheeps clothing


----------



## KCM

dems4me said:
			
		

> He's inferring that I am a wolf in sheeps clothing


I would actually find that pretty insulting.


----------



## K_Jo

KCM said:
			
		

> I would actually find that pretty insulting.


I think her getting upset about it would depend on who says it.  But it's still not nice.  It might be a sin.


----------



## dems4me

KCM said:
			
		

> I would actually find that pretty insulting.





Actually I've been called worse - 


In answer to your statement - yes, but I know I'm not really anything like that so... whatever... 

baaaaahhhh, baaaaaaahhhh, hooooowwwl, hoooowwwwllll, baaaaaahhhh...  After alll this has soo much to do with the topic at hand...


----------



## itsbob

dems4me said:
			
		

> THat is the ONLY unforgivable sin.
> 
> 
> 2A, don't waste  your time on this today.  Its a nice day outside - sometimes folks just like to egg each other on.


I think you're wrong, but I can't cite verse.. but if I recall correctly, the Catholic Church especially belivieves that if you take your own life you are going straight to hell, no repentance, no forgiveness, not chance to accept christ, it's automatic eternal damnation.. I would say that equates to an unforgivable sin..


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I think her getting upset about it would depend on who says it.  But it's still not nice.  It might be a sin.



no... doesn't matter who says it... it depends on moodswings... 





j/k - yes, you are correct, I know 2A is joking and its not like he looks up every post of mine to say something derogatory every chance he gets just to have the entire forum laugh at me and thereby making the offender seam better than... you know the adage - tear someone down to raise yourself up... that sort of thing.  2A is not like that at all, this is as far as he gets in demeaning someone or being derogatory.


----------



## dems4me

itsbob said:
			
		

> I think you're wrong, but I can't cite verse.. but if I recall correctly, the Catholic Church especially belivieves that if you take your own life you are going straight to hell, no repentance, no forgiveness, not chance to accept christ, it's automatic eternal damnation.. I would say that equates to an unforgivable sin..




How do you know that person isn't accepting Christ in his last dying breath? You don't know that.  Their is one way to get to heavan according to the Bible and denying Christ is the only ONE way not to go to heavan.  How do you know that the person that is in pain and hurting so badly isn't repenting or speaking with the Lord in his last breath of life?  You don't know...


----------



## trisha

itsbob said:
			
		

> there are two unforgivable sins.. Murdering another and suicide.  You will be given the opportunity to repent for your sins prior to "eternal torment",  Only those that refuse to accept christ and repent AFTER death will be sent to hell (and the aforementioned murderers and suicides)



*Then, Does this mean that God's love and/or power is limited? *


----------



## Chasey_Lane

dems4me said:
			
		

> How do you know that person isn't accepting Christ in his last dying breath? You don't know that.  Their is one way to get to heavan according to the Bible and denying Christ is the only ONE way not to go to heavan.  How do you know that the person that is in pain and hurting so badly isn't repenting or speaking with the Lord in his last breath of life?  You don't know...


Dems, to make a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong story short, we don't know and the only time we're truly going to find out is when our "time" comes.


----------



## KCM

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Dems, to make a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong story short, we don't know and the only time we're truly going to find out is when our "time" comes.


Exactly.  The only one that is to judge each and every one of us is God above. The rest is speculation.


----------



## K_Jo

I think what really matters here is we all finally agree that gay clergy should be accepted by Christians.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I think what really matters here is we all finally agree that gay clergy should be accepted by Christians.




Round two!!! Ding!!! Ding!!!!  





That's what started all this silly...   I am in agreement with you and I think most are...


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> Round two!!! Ding!!! Ding!!!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I think what really matters here is we all finally agree that gay clergy should be accepted by Christians.


*Never!*


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> *Never!*




Why not?


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> *Never!*


How very Christian of you.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Dems, to make a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong story short, we don't know and the only time we're truly going to find out is when our "time" comes.


When your time is over, it is too late to say "Oops. I want a do over."


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> Why not?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> How very Christian of you.


Yes. It is. I will accept the person no matter what the sin. I will not say the sin is OK. If they repent, and turn away from the sin, great. If they don't it is upon them. If they accept Jesus as Savior and Lord and do the Father will, best! Free will! Heaven or hell. Everyone's own choice. Choose wisely.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Why not?


You are on another 24 hours of ignore. Wolf.


----------



## pixiegirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You are on another 24 hours of ignore. Wolf.



Can I be a bunny?  Everyone loves bunnies!


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> When your time is over, it is too late to say "Oops. I want a do over."


You've never been to the "other" side before, so you can't be certain.  What if nothing happens and *gasp* we're just a rotting body in the ground?


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You are on another 24 hours of ignore. Wolf.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

pixiegirl said:
			
		

> Can I be a bunny?  Everyone loves bunnies!


----------



## Chasey_Lane

pixiegirl said:
			
		

> Can I be a bunny?  Everyone loves bunnies!


I want to be the Tooth Fairy.  Oh, wait...can we only pick from animals?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> You've never been to the "other" side before, so you can't be certain. What if nothing happens and *gasp* we're just a rotting body in the ground?


Then nothing is lost. 

 When you get to the other side and, if still unrepentant, you find that God is real and satan is real and heaven is real and hell is real and you are going to spend all of eternity in hell, how will you feel then when it is too late to do anything about it?

    Choose wisely.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Yes. It is. I will accept the person no matter what the sin. I will not say the sin is OK. If they repent, and turn away from the sin, great. If they don't it is upon them. If they accept Jesus as Savior and Lord and do the Father will, best! Free will! Heaven or hell. Everyone's own choice. Choose wisely.


It's not a sin.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> When you get to the other side and, if still unrepentant, you find that God is real and satan is real and heaven is real and hell is real and you are going to spend all of eternity in hell, how will you feel then when it is too late to do anything about it?


I won't feel anything; I'll be dead.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> I want to be the Tooth Fairy.  Oh, wait...can we only pick from animals?


I have a question. You are nice in person. Why do you become so obnoxious on the forums? And why do you come into the Religion Forum obviously not to add anything but just to torment and stir the pot?


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I have a question Kim. You are nice in person. Why do you become so obnoxious on the forums? And why do you come into the Religion Forum obviously not to add anything but just to torment and stir the pot?


All of the above does not matter (nor do my answers) because God is the only one to judge me.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> It's not a sin.


Then you don't believe God's word and there is no further discussion with you. Not my job to convince you.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I have a question Kim. You are nice in person. Why do you become so obnoxious on the forums? And why do you come into the Religion Forum obviously not to add anything but just to torment and stir the pot?




I thought she was just sticking up for me because you were calling me a wolf :shrug:


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I have a question Kim. You are nice in person. Why do you become so obnoxious on the forums? And why do you come into the Religion Forum obviously not to add anything but just to torment and stir the pot?


Why do you feel tormented?  I think she brought some much needed levity.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> I won't feel anything; I'll be dead.


Non sequitur.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Then you don't believe God's word and there is no further discussion with you. Not my job to convince you.


You're right about that.  And it would never happen anyway, I don't care how many bible verses you cite.  But it seems those who have been 'saved' often feel it _is_ their job to make everyone think like they do.  I have a sister-in-law who thinks my husband and I are going to hell because we don't believe every word of the bible.  I'm very happy with the person I am, I'm not going to hell, and if I die tomorrow I'll die feeling good that I didn't discriminate against gay people or anyone else who deserves the same rites as the rest of us.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Non sequitur.


Farside!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You're right about that. And it would never happen anyway, I don't care how many bible verses you cite. But it seems those who have been 'saved' often feel it _is_ their job to make everyone think like they do. I have a sister-in-law who thinks my husband and I are going to hell because we don't believe every word of the bible. I'm very happy with the person I am, I'm not going to hell, and if I die tomorrow I'll die feeling good that I didn't discriminate against gay people or anyone else who deserves the same *rites* as the rest of us.


Glad you are happy with yourself. Is God? I don't know. You may be right about not going to hell. You may not. If you don't believe the Bible, how can you know? It is only God's word that sets the absolutes. Without those, all may judge for themselves what is right. For a serial killer, right may be to kill you.

 Would those be last rites or do you mean rights?

  Choose wisely.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Farside!


Non sequitur.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Non sequitur.




wolf


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Glad you are happy with yourself. Is God? I don't know. You may be right about not going to hell. You may not. If you don't believe the Bible, how can you know? It is only God's word that sets the absolutes. Without those, all may judge for themselves what is right. For a serial killer, right may be to kill you.
> 
> Would those be last rites or do you mean rights?
> 
> Choose wisely.


I meant rights.

"Don't act gay" is not one of the Ten Commandments.  "Don't be a serial killer" is.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I meant rights.
> 
> "Don't act gay" is not one of the Ten Commandments.  "Don't be a serial killer" is.




I don't think they act gay, I think they are born that way. :shrug:  But I do agree with ya on the 10 commandments.


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> I don't think they act gay, I think they are born that way. :shrug: But I do agree with ya on the 10 commandments.


I think gay people are born gay, too.  Remember earlier in the thread when I was told that meant they were deformed or something?  Anyway, I believe 2A said (or maybe RailRoad) that actually being gay isn't the sin, it's the "act" that's the sin.  So if you're a gay man, but you don't have sex with another man, you're good to go.  And I think that's crap.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I think gay people are born gay, too.  Remember earlier in the thread when I was told that meant they were deformed or something?  Anyway, I believe 2A said (or maybe RailRoad) that actually being gay isn't the sin, it's the "act" that's the sin.  So if you're a gay man, but you don't have sex with another man, you're good to go.  And I think that's crap.




effeminate :shrug:


----------



## crabcake

dems4me said:
			
		

> effeminate :shrug:


leave smalltown out of this


----------



## T.Rally

A person is not born gay! Homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait. It is not 'normal. On the contrary, it deviates (note the term-as in a sexual deviate) from the norm. Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule. 

Quit believing the myths the pro gay establishment wants you to believe.

The purpose of sex is to reproduce, the purpose of the pleasure involved is to bond, the purpose of the bond is to create a mutual co-existance between the man and woman so that their children are given good nurturing- nurturing required by both parents of both genders.

Homosexual sex does not equal reproduction. Homosexual bonds do not create a mutual co-existance as each gender has its inherent duties.

Is it really that hard to figure out?


----------



## K_Jo

T.Rally said:
			
		

> A person is not born gay! Homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait. It is not 'normal. On the contrary, it deviates (note the term-as in a sexual deviate) from the norm. Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule.
> 
> Quit believing the myths the pro gay establishment wants you to believe.
> 
> The purpose of sex is to reproduce, the purpose of the pleasure involved is to bond, the purpose of the bond is to create a mutual co-existance between the man and woman so that their children are given good nurturing- nurturing required by both parents of both genders.
> 
> Homosexual sex does not equal reproduction. Homosexual bonds do not create a mutual co-existance as each gender has its inherent duties.
> 
> Is it really that hard to figure out?


I'll bet you wouldn't feel the same way if YOU were gay.


----------



## dems4me

T.Rally said:
			
		

> A person is not born gay! Homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait. It is not 'normal. On the contrary, it deviates (note the term-as in a sexual deviate) from the norm. Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule.
> 
> Quit believing the myths the pro gay establishment wants you to believe.
> 
> The purpose of sex is to reproduce, the purpose of the pleasure involved is to bond, the purpose of the bond is to create a mutual co-existance between the man and woman so that their children are given good nurturing- nurturing required by both parents of both genders.
> 
> Homosexual sex does not equal reproduction. Homosexual bonds do not create a mutual co-existance as each gender has its inherent duties.
> 
> Is it really that hard to figure out?



Has nothing to do with progay establishment...I know gay people... I really think its a chromosone thing or something... they were definately born gay and they way they act is definately not an act... AND nothing is wrong with the parents of a few of my friends either that made them gay... its this kind of BS misunderstandings that perpetuates the bs revolving around gay people.... and creates hostility, close-mindedness and even hatred.  I do have a question for you... what if you had kids and they were gay... what would you do:shrug: afterall, according to you,  it was based on the parenting skills :shrug:  Also, do you really believe that people choose to be outcasts of society and ridiculed and the victims of hate crimes?


----------



## K_Jo

morganj614 said:
			
		

> Whoa there, I have been to DuPont Circle and have seen some flamers that I KNOW do not have a choice. They have a genetic make-up that is mixed up.
> Since I can't have children, does that mean I can't have sex?


  I hear ya!  It's just such a silly argument.  You hear all the time when people come out, "I knew since I was 5 years old" or 8 years old or 12.  A 5-year-old kid doesn't CHOOSE to be gay.  Why would anyone, with the way they're treated?


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I hear ya!  It's just such a silly argument.  You hear all the time when people come out, "I knew since I was 5 years old" or 8 years old or 12.  A 5-year-old kid doesn't CHOOSE to be gay.  Why would anyone, with the way they're treated?




So people can rationalize and justify their hatred towards them... they can't accept the fact they are born that way because it would make them look cruel and close minded


----------



## T.Rally

dems4me said:
			
		

> So people can rationalize and justify their hatred towards them... they can't accept the fact they are born that way because it would make them look cruel and close minded



Gee, how can anyone argue that?  No matter what I were to say,  you will claim the moral high ground and I will remain close minded and cruel.  

Truth is there is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply genetic. And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.


----------



## K_Jo

T.Rally said:
			
		

> Gee, how can anyone argue that? No matter what I were to say, you will claim the moral high ground and I will remain close minded and cruel.
> 
> Truth is there is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply genetic. *And none of the research claims there is*. *Only* the press and certain *researchers do*, when speaking in sound bites to the public.


Wouldn't researchers get their info from...uhh...RESEARCH???


----------



## dems4me

T.Rally said:
			
		

> Gee, how can anyone argue that?  No matter what I were to say,  you will claim the moral high ground and I will remain close minded and cruel.
> 
> Truth is there is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply genetic. And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.




yeah - kind of like back in the day when folks thought giving african american civil rights would be the end of the world to... they too used to be hated.


----------



## Hessian

*OK..I have a genetic deformity...*

As I have said before...I am red-green color blind (along with 6% of the rest of the men in America)....

Do I demand that I get accomodations? Do I scream "DISCRIMINATION!" at every stop light? Do I get a special parking space? Will the Government stop printing colored tax forms that offend me?

Screw it!
Gays have no right to claim genetic disorders when numerous attempts to "discover" it have fallen flat. I have a much more legitimate argument to force adaptions to fit my "world view." (There are far more colored Blind then gay!) I keep my "issue" to myself unless I have to apologize for clashing ties & standing in the wrong colored line. I don't make demands that the world accomodate me. My problem is not related to deviance, wild behavior, seduction---and yet these people still insist on special considerations, a day of silence in public schools, seminars to promote acceptance (not just tolerance). They promote bold faced lies regarding their numbers, aids, etc
and now they demand that churches accept their ordination as pastors/priests.

I don't care to bother God asking to be healed...(It can be entertaining!)
I ask others to excuse my mistakes when they happen (sometimes humorously).
Gays need to recognize they chose to be different...and if they want to stay that way: Don't demand that society accommodate & accept their choice.
They will be accepted if they renounce their ways, ask to be healed and recognize their position before Almighty God.


----------



## dems4me

Hessian said:
			
		

> Gays need to recognize they chose to be different...and if they want to stay that way: Don't demand that society accommodate & accept their choice.
> They will be accepted if they renounce their ways, ask to be healed and recognize their position before Almighty God.



Are you implying they should stay in a closet and be miserable just to make people like you comfortable?  :shrug:  They are who they are :shrug:  Are you homophobic :shrug:  Are you gay?


----------



## Hessian

are your questions rhetorical?
I've already answered them previously....
and you know I chuckle over the term "homophobic"...fear ??--hardly.
Amused disgust? likely. (mixed with pity and bile)


----------



## K_Jo

Hessian said:
			
		

> are your questions rhetorical?
> I've already answered them previously....
> and you know I chuckle over the term "homophobic"...fear ??--hardly.
> *Amused disgust? likely. (mixed with pity and bile*)


You are not a nice human being and God does not like that.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You are not a nice human being and God does not like that.




  he should be tenderhearted like me


----------



## dems4me

dems4me said:
			
		

> he should be tenderhearted like me




Boy! Was THAT a thread killer... 

:


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> Boy! Was THAT a thread killer...
> 
> :


 I thought it was funny, but I wanted to see if you stirred anyone up with it so I was hiding in the bushes, waiting.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I thought it was funny, but I wanted to see if you stirred anyone up with it so I was hiding in the bushes, waiting.




I did hear a giant sucking sound of folks gasping...


----------



## trisha

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you don't believe the Bible, how can you know? It is only God's word that sets the absolutes.



What about some religions that claim to be Christian yet don't believe the bible is true, that is has mistakes in it? (check here: http://www.poemels.org/tracts/elselca.html)


----------



## K_Jo

trisha said:
			
		

> What about some religions that claim to be Christian yet don't believe the bible is true, that is has mistakes in it? (check here: http://www.poemels.org/tracts/elselca.html)


What about them?  :shrug:


----------



## trisha

T.Rally said:
			
		

> Truth is there is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply genetic. And none of the research claims there is.



It's the same regarding alcoholism. Alcoholics claim their fight is a disease. If its a disease, then is it something they are born with? Is homosexuality a disease? Or, is it something of a choice. You choose to drink or not to drink. You choose to like people of your same gender or not... Why? Only the person on the inside really knows for sure 'why'...
The question was at the beginning, Should outrightly gay people be ordained ministers? Should they be allowed to be gay in the church with their partner in a relationship dressed in clergy attire and yet forgiving you of your sins as ordained by God and the church, yet still gay themselves when God instructs us not to live in sin?


----------



## Hessian

*Recently...*

I saw a pic of madonna and her hubby dressed as a nun & a bishop: They have the exact legitimacy as any gay trying to pretend he (she)...(it) ...is a priest. In this case: clothes DOESN"T make the "man."


----------



## Bustem' Down

trisha said:
			
		

> It's the same regarding alcoholism. Alcoholics claim their fight is a disease. If its a disease, then is it something they are born with? Is homosexuality a disease? Or, is it something of a choice. You choose to drink or not to drink. You choose to like people of your same gender or not... Why? Only the person on the inside really knows for sure 'why'...
> The question was at the beginning, Should outrightly gay people be ordained ministers? Should they be allowed to be gay in the church with their partner in a relationship dressed in clergy attire and yet forgiving you of your sins as ordained by God and the church, yet still gay themselves when God instructs us not to live in sin?


Based on that yes.  If a church allows it yes, if not no.  If they start thier own all gay church fine.  Methodists may not agree with some doctrine of Lutherans, but they don't deny each other the right of assigning people to the clergy.  Basically it all depends on the doctrine of the idividual church until God comes down and tells us otherwise.  I would never tell a Catholic preist that he shouldn't be ordained because I'm not of that faith.  If it were a church I was going to, and my priest, rabbi, cleric, pastor or whatever came out, I would either ask for his resignation, or attend another church.


----------



## vraiblonde

You all will notice that all silly posts have been moved to the Chit Chat forum.  I just realized we were in Religion and, as everyone knows, Religion is a no-tard zone.

Please direct your attention to the Chit Chat forum, unless you have something pertinent to add to this particular discussion.

Thank you and have a nice day.


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> You all will notice that all silly posts have been moved to the Chit Chat forum.  I just realized we were in Religion and, as everyone knows, Religion is a no-tard zone.
> 
> Please direct your attention to the Chit Chat forum, unless you have something pertinent to add to this particular discussion.
> 
> Thank you and have a nice day.



 

Here's some of my daily devotions I thought I'd share  
The Names of Christ* ~ T.C. Horton & Charles E. Hurlburt (Moody)
PHYSICIAN
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself. (Luke 4:23)
	Our Lord had been in Galilee. His fame had spread throughout that region. He had done mighty miracles. He came back home to Nazareth, where He had been brought up, and preached in the synagogue on the Sabbath Day from Isaiah 61:1-3, saying, "This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears." The people who heard these words said, "Is this not Joseph's son?" Jesus quoted to them our verse, a proverb among the Jews. What a mistake they make. He was the Great Physician. He is the "Great Physician"—"Able to do exceeding abundantly above all we can ask or think." How few know Him as such a One! How few look to Him!
	Lord, You who are the Great Physician; we look to You today to supply our every need. Amen.

http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/devotional/index_76096.html (Expressions of God's Fatherhood)
http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/devotional/f2f/index.php (He Really Does Care for You)
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/odb/odb.shtml (Hurting and Hearing)
http://www.coralridge.org/nem/NEMdevotional.asp (He Didn't Lift Us Up To Let Us Down)
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/ (The Light That Never Fails)
http://www.bobgass.com/word/default.aspx (It's Okay, God Is with You!)
Today's Promise:  http://promises.blueletterbible.org/


PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL HEALTH	   
April 22, 2005	   
Be Healed in Jesus' Name	   
...in My name....they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will get well.—Mark 16:17,18
There is abundant power in the name of Jesus, and we have been given the right to use that name.
We should speak the name of Jesus in faith against every kind of sickness, disease, and infirmity that arises. We should remember that the Lord gave it to us so we could walk in victory.
We are to pray in the name of Jesus. Prayer is our request—our petition—and the name of Jesus is what gets God's attention. When we pray in Jesus' name, we are presenting to the Father all that Jesus is and has done.
Sometimes we fall into the trap of just putting up with some physical problem, especially if it has been around a long time. We need to be reminded occasionally that there is healing available for us.
If you are sick, fighting any kind of an illness or disease, I encourage you to exercise your blood-bought right to use the name of Jesus against it. Each time you speak that name in faith, power is released.
Start exercising your right to use the name of Jesus against your problems, and believe they lose a little more of their power against you each time you speak that name.
Pray This:  "Father, I thank You for giving me power for any situation in life through the precious name of Jesus. Amen."
Copyright ©1998-2003 Joyce Meyer Ministries. All rights reserved.	   


GOD'S WORD FOR GROWING IN PRAYER/Devotional Thoughts on Talking with God ~ Andrew Murray compilation (HumbleCreek) 

PRAY AND PREVAIL
The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results. James 5:16

	When Israel had made the golden calf, Moses returned to the Lord and said, "Alas, these people have committed a terrible sin....But now, please forgive their sin—and if not, then blot me out of the record you are keeping" (Exodus 32:31-32). That was persistence. Moses would rather have died than not have his people forgiven.
	When God had heard him and said He would send His angel with the people, Moses came again. He would not be content until, in answer to his prayer, God himself should go with them. God had said, "I will indeed do what you have asked" (v. 33:17). After that in answer to Moses' prayer, "Let me see your glorious presence" (v. 18), God made His goodness pass before him. Then Moses at once began pleading, "O Lord, then please go with us" (v. 34:9). "Moses was up on the mountain with the LORD forty days and forty nights" (v. 34:28).
	Moses was persistent with God and prevailed. He proves that the person who truly lives near to God shares in the same power of intercession which there is in Jesus.
	James teaches us to pray for each other. "The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results." Praise God! He still wants for us to seek Him. Faith in a prayer-hearing God will make a prayer-loving Christian.

Thank You, Lord, for the examples in Scripture of men such as Moses. 
May I learn from them that prayer accomplishes much. In Jesus' name, amen.
< < < + > > >

*They will call on My name and I will answer them. (Zech. 13:9)   ...this glorious and awesome name... (Deut.28:58)    Excellent is Your name!  (Ps. 8:1)   Hallowed be Your name. (Matt.6:9)   For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them. (Matt. 18:20)   Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:20)   ...the name which is above every name. (Phil. 2:9)  —


----------



## 2ndAmendment

trisha said:
			
		

> What about some religions that claim to be Christian yet don't believe the bible is true, that is has mistakes in it? (check here: http://www.poemels.org/tracts/elselca.html)


And I say to them, they are not Christian. If any part of the Bible is not trustworthy, then none of it is and that includes the promise of salvation and eternal life through forgiveness through Jesus the Christ. The Bible even says that in the last days there will be those that reject sound teaching and seek teaching that seems right in their own eyes. 





> *1 Timothy 4*
> 
> *Apostasy*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29749">1</sup>But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, <sup id="en-NASB-29750">2</sup>by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29751">3</sup>men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29752">4</sup>For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29753">5</sup>for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.





> *2 Timothy 3*
> 
> *"Difficult Times Will Come"*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29855">1</sup>But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.     <sup id="en-NASB-29856">2</sup>For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29857">3</sup>unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29858">4</sup>treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29859">5</sup>holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29860">6</sup>For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29861">7</sup>always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29862">8</sup>Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29863">9</sup>But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29864">10</sup>Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29865">11</sup>persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me!
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29866">12</sup>Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29867">13</sup>But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29868">14</sup>You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29869">15</sup>and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29870">16</sup>All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-29871">17</sup>so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

trisha said:
			
		

> It's the same regarding alcoholism. Alcoholics claim their fight is a disease. If its a disease, then is it something they are born with? Is homosexuality a disease? Or, is it something of a choice. You choose to drink or not to drink. You choose to like people of your same gender or not... Why? Only the person on the inside really knows for sure 'why'...
> The question was at the beginning, Should outrightly gay people be ordained ministers? Should they be allowed to be gay in the church with their partner in a relationship dressed in clergy attire and yet forgiving you of your sins as ordained by God and the church, yet still gay themselves when God instructs us not to live in sin?


I think a lot of pseudo-psycho diagnosis are just "feel good, your OK, I'm OK, nobody is at fault, feel good about yourself, increase your self esteem" junk. Drinking is a choice just like sexual partners and the choice to follow God's way or not. No one sits on your chest and pours alcohol down your throat.

 Back to the original topic of the thread, my answer remains, emphatically NO. Actively practicing homosexuals should not be ordained as ministers. I am not going to debate this again.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> Based on that yes. If a church allows it yes, if not no. If they start thier own all gay church fine. Methodists may not agree with some doctrine of Lutherans, but they don't deny each other the right of assigning people to the clergy. Basically it all depends on the doctrine of the idividual church until God comes down and tells us otherwise. I would never tell a Catholic preist that he shouldn't be ordained because I'm not of that faith. If it were a church I was going to, and my priest, rabbi, cleric, pastor or whatever came out, I would either ask for his resignation, or attend another church.


See my posts above regarding those seeking their own way and not believing the Bible.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I am not going to debate this again.


Aww, c'mon.


----------



## yornoc

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I will not speak to other religions. I live a way of life which is a relationship with Jesus. I am a Christian. If you are a Christian, then you must believe the word of God, the Bible. If you don't, then what do you place your faith on? That is a rhetorical question. That said, the Bible states that homosexual acts are an abomination to God. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, Genesis 18:20 - 19:29. These entire cities were destroyed by God for the sin of homosexual behavior.
> 
> God loves everyone, but He hates sin. Period. You can be forgiven all your sins, but that requires repentance. True repentance is the turning away from *all* sin including sexual sin. It doesn't matter whether in human wisdom people don't believe that there are conditions on salvation; the Bible says there are.
> * This is just one of many places. I used this one since it is the New Testament and is a quote from Y'shua (Jesus.). I do this because many want to dismiss the account of Sodom and Gomorrah as being from the Old Testament. There are references to homosexual behavior being not acceptable in the New Testament as well.
> 
> 
> Seems pretty clear cut to me.*


*

I could not have said it any better!*


----------



## Bustem' Down

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> See my posts above regarding those seeking their own way and not believing the Bible.


So why don't we just stay out of it and let God be the judge?  That's how it's supposed to work right?


----------



## jackoholic

trisha said:
			
		

> With all the publicity about gay marriage, I ask what's the deal on some religions relaxing about ordained gays and lesbians? Is this something you agree or disagree about?


if they throw out all the gays in the priesthood you lose about half the clergy. most go into it hoping god will help them find their way the rest are mommas boys.

signed,

a fallen catholic


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> So why don't we just stay out of it and let God be the judge? That's how it's supposed to work right?


God is the only judge, but to not proclaim the Truth is dereliction of duty for a Christian. This was the last command given by Christ before being received into heaven after His crucifixion and resurrection. 





> *Mark 16*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-24889">15</sup>And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-24890">16</sup>"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


Christians are to preach and teach the whole Truth without watering it down.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

jackoholic said:
			
		

> ...most go into it hoping god will help them find their way the rest are mommas boys....


Certainly not a proper reason to become a priest or minister. Brings meaning to "wolf among the sheep". By preying on those in their flock, they will recieve futher judgment.


----------

