# I'm wondering...



## rdonthehd

After reading the posts in the survey, I'm wondering what do people of obvious strong faith, like 2ndAmendment, think of people that don't believe there is a such thing as a higher power (a God)? Do you think badly of them because they don't share the same thoughts and opinions even though they live morally and agreeably?
I used to get into heated discussions over this whenever missionaries from different churches landed on my doorstep. I think the discussions were heated mostly because they were trying to "recruit" more people to their church.
So, what do you guys think?


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## BuddyLee

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> After reading the posts in the survey, I'm wondering what do people of obvious strong faith, like 2ndAmendment, think of people that don't believe there is a such thing as a higher power (a God)? Do you think badly of them because they don't share the same thoughts and opinions even though they live morally and agreeably?
> I used to get into heated discussions over this whenever missionaries from different churches landed on my doorstep. I think the discussions were heated mostly because they were trying to "recruit" more people to their church.
> So, what do you guys think?


I know 2A has expressed this opinion over and over and I'm sure he'll chime in with it yet again. Just read every other thread in the religion section.

Everyone has a differing opinon. Some might think badly of the person and some might not think badly but sorry for them and their soul. Some might be friends or even love the person in question. Point in case, it really depends on the person and how strongly they hold to their beliefs.


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## Tonio

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> Do you think badly of them because they don't share the same thoughts and opinions even though they live morally and agreeably?


I think that a person's religious beliefs are no one else's business, not in a responsibility sense but in a privacy sense. If they act on those beliefs in a way that hurts others (Osama bin Laden and Eric Rudolph, to cite two extreme examples), then it becomes other people's business. 

The mindset you gave isn't limited to religious extremism. It just feels worse to me when religion is involved, because religious extremists often claim to speak for Supreme Beings.


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## mrweb

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I know 2A has expressed this opinion over and over and I'm sure he'll chime in with it yet again. Just read every other thread in the religion section.
> 
> Everyone has a differing opinon. Some might think badly of the person and some might not think badly but sorry for them and their soul. Some might be friends or even love the person in question. Point in case, it really depends on the person and how strongly they hold to their beliefs.


I don't think badly or otherwise about a person who does not believe.  Who am I to judge?


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## Tinkerbell

I don't think badly of those with no faith. God says it is not for us to judge others. 

However, in my faith and belief, God also teaches that it is the job of those who have faith to try and bring faith to those who don't have faith. Not through "force," however. We are to be the apostles of God and spread the word of God, gently, and make sure those who maybe haven't heard it, or don't understand it, hear it and get the understanding. Then it is up to each individual to decide if they believe or not. We cannot force people to open the doors in their hearts to God, but we can be the channel God through which God knocks on those doors.


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## PJumper

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> After reading the posts in the survey, I'm wondering what do people of obvious strong faith, like 2ndAmendment, think of people that don't believe there is a such thing as a higher power (a God)? Do you think badly of them because they don't share the same thoughts and opinions even though they live morally and agreeably?
> I used to get into heated discussions over this whenever missionaries from different churches landed on my doorstep. I think the discussions were heated mostly because they were trying to "recruit" more people to their church.
> So, what do you guys think?




I don't think badly of those who did not believe in god, they may have been brought up that way and as long as they don't do harm to the believers, they they're ok in my book.  By the way, believing is just the first step.  You've got to have faith in God as well 'cause the devil also believed there's God.


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## vraiblonde

I'm a heathen and 2A still loves me - although he DID try to kill me with hotsauce once.  Hmmm.....


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## crabcake

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I'm a heathen and 2A still loves me - although he DID try to kill me with hotsauce once.  Hmmm.....


 I'm sure he sought forgiveness through prayer the following day.


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## BuddyLee

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I'm a heathen and 2A still loves me - although he DID try to kill me with hotsauce once. Hmmm.....


:noted: Hot sauce not an option when trying to whack Vrai.


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## 2ndAmendment

I try to love everyone. Jesus instructed me to do just that. I fail, I know. I am sorrowful for those that don't believe. I quote the Bible in the hope that some will see. I hope that none are lost, especially those I know IRL, but I have no control over their relationship or lack thereof with Jesus. I present the Good News. I can't save anyone; not my job. Each individual must make the decision to follow Jesus for themselves.

 I used to, in Christian immaturity, think if people didn't believe like I did that they were not really Christians. In light of 





> *Romans 14:1-10*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28282">1</sup>Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.     <sup id="en-NASB-28283">2</sup>One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28284">3</sup>The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28285">4</sup>Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28286">5</sup>One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28287">6</sup>He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28288">7</sup>For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28289">8</sup>for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28290">9</sup>For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28291">10</sup>But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.


 who am I to judge another believer. Other Christians are not responsible to me. I am not their master. Jesus is their Master as He is mine. As I recently heard, nothing in life matters except getting saved. Get saved even if you screw up everything else in your life. The least in God's kingdom is far greater than the most exalted in satan's realm.


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## vraiblonde

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm sure he sought forgiveness through prayer the following day.


Well, to be fair, he DID indicate that it was death sauce.  But I figured if he could douse his food with it and not shed a tear, I should be able to put a teensy bit on my finger and barely touch my tongue with it.  Right?


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## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I'm a heathen and 2A still loves me - although he DID try to kill me with hotsauce once. Hmmm.....


I told you it was hot.


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## rdonthehd

thanks for all the unargumentative answers. I also think that I have been in hot conversations about religion before with others because I ask questions like: WHY do you belive? and Don't you feel like a sheep just following everyone because someone said so? 
Everyone has given me answers that seem to go around in circles.
I know I can't talk about my beliefs with my boyfriend because he was raised in a Catholic upbringing and becomes flushed and discombobulated when I question his beliefs. 
Since I was a little kid, I have visited many many religious institutions looking for my own answers because the ones I was getting didn't make sense to me. I don't know what answer I'm looking for, but I will know it when I find it. (does that make sense?)


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## rdonthehd

oh yeah, I can't comment on the hot sauce business... I happen to like things spicey too!


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## DoWhat

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I try to love everyone.


I believe that, because he didn't beat me up.


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## vraiblonde

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> I happen to like things spicey too!


Ah yes, young grasshopper.  I made the mistake of saying that in front of 2A as well.


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## vraiblonde

DoWhat said:
			
		

> I believe that, because he didn't beat me up.


I heard you were a little nervous


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## Mikeinsmd

I'm agnostic and I always ask those who tell me I'm going to hell or purgatory for not believing; "What about the people living in tree tops along the Amazon? Why does God make them burn when they never even heard of Him??"  I always get the deer in the headlight look.... :shrug:


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## DoWhat

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I heard you were a little nervous


Yep, but I knew I could out run him.


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## jazz lady

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I heard you were a little nervous


Just a tad.   

After I introduced them, there was NO color left in one of their faces.


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## Pete

DoWhat said:
			
		

> Yep, but I knew I could soothe him with song.


<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/neil-grand.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">


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## Tonio

Pete said:
			
		

>


 And here is one of Neil's songs that is appropriate for this thread:



> Hot August night
> And the leaves hanging down
> And the grass on the ground smelling sweet
> Move up the road
> To the outside of town
> And the sound of that good gospel beat
> Sits a ragged tent
> Where there ain't no trees
> And that gospel group
> Telling you and me
> 
> It's Love
> Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show
> Pack up the babies
> Grab the old ladies
> Everyone goes
> Everyone knows
> Brother Love's show
> 
> Room gets suddenly still
> And when you'd almost bet
> You could hear yourself sweat, he walks in
> Eyes black as coal
> And when he lifts his face
> Every ear in the place is on him
> 
> Starting soft and slow
> Like a small earthquake
> And when he lets go
> Half the valley shakes
> 
> It's Love, Love
> Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show
> Pack up the babies
> Grab the old ladies
> Everyone goes
> Everyone knows
> Brother Love's show
> 
> _Sermon_
> 
> Take my hand in yours
> Walk with me this day
> In my heart, I know
> I will never stray
> Halle, halle, halle, halle, halle, halle, halle
> 
> 
> It's Love, Love
> Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show
> Pack up the babies
> Grab the old ladies
> Everyone goes
> Everyone knows
> Brother Love's show
> Amen


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## jazz lady

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> Since I was a little kid, I have visited many many religious institutions looking for my own answers because the ones I was getting didn't make sense to me. I don't know what answer I'm looking for, but I will know it when I find it. (does that make sense?)


It makes perfect sense to me.  I've tried many different religions, different churches, different preachers - you name it - and have never found the "fit" for me.  Maybe someday I'll find it as I will never give up hope but if I don't, I can live with that.

That is not to say I am not a spiritual person.  My beliefs are a very personal and very real thing to me.  I was an angry and bitter person for many years.  Through my personal spiritual journey, I've learned to let go of the anger, forgive those for what they've done to me, and open my heart again.  It has made a world of difference in my life and I am a much better person for it.  It may not work for everyone but for me it does.


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## kwillia

Pete said:
			
		

> <img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/neil-grand.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">


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## Dondi

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> Since I was a little kid, I have visited many many religious institutions looking for my own answers because the ones I was getting didn't make sense to me. I don't know what answer I'm looking for, but I will know it when I find it. (does that make sense?)



I think there are undercurrents of God in every major religion. While I have my own beliefs as a Christian, I find it hard to believe in God condemning anyone who has never heard of Jesus. I think God honors an honest attempt to find Him, even the atheist or agnostic who truly and objectively has tried to find God through scientific means. Personnally, I see God's work in creation, but really it is through the discovery of His Spirit and His Love that has really convinced me that's He's real.


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## Vince

Born and raised Catholic.  Believe in God.  And 2A still got me with his hot sauce.


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## Mikeinsmd

Homesick said:
			
		

> You've read it, or heard it before. I'll repeat, God does the judging. Were they sending you there themselves, or quoting verses read from the Bible? What makes you think God burns the people in the trees?


Maybe not burn but if I remember my catholic upbringing correctly, we were taught that if you were not baptized, you cannot go to heaven.  So why do I get to go to heaven but the unbaptized tree people cannot??


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## gumbo

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Maybe not burn but if I remember my catholic upbringing correctly, we were taught that if you were not baptized, you cannot go to heaven.  So why do I get to go to heaven but the unbaptized tree people cannot??


Thats Catholics for ya , or any organized religion for that matter. 
Read it for yourself in the New Testament , it only takes a few hours.
Try the NIV version .It"s easy to understand.


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## HollowSoul

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Well, to be fair, he DID indicate that it was death sauce.  But I figured if he could douse his food with it and not shed a tear, I should be able to put a teensy bit on my finger and barely touch my tongue with it.  Right?


Dearest Vrai....

I fell for it too


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## Kain99

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Maybe not burn but if I remember my catholic upbringing correctly, we were taught that if you were not baptized, you cannot go to heaven.  So why do I get to go to heaven but the unbaptized tree people cannot??


No one says that unbaptized tree people cannot.... except for the truly ignorant.  My brother is severly handicapped he's one of God's angels.  I dare anyone to say different.

Ignorant people, give God a bad name and dumb people fall for it.


Love,

Kain


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## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Maybe not burn but if I remember my catholic upbringing correctly, we were taught that if you were not baptized, you cannot go to heaven.  So why do I get to go to heaven but the unbaptized tree people cannot??


 You do not remember your Catholic upbringing correctly.


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## rdonthehd

I like Mike's tree people question... I've asked questions similar to that and got explainations that didn't answer my question.
Mike - you funny guy!


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## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> You do not remember your Catholic upbringing correctly.


Maybe not but I could've sworn we were taught that.  I couldn't care less so I'm not about to research it.  I'll believe when shown indisputable proof. I know I have many unexplained questions that every religeous person answers with "God said so"  "You'll see when you die" etc....  Well it's all  until I see the proof.  And don't tell me to "just look around you".


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## gumbo

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Maybe not but I could've sworn we were taught that.  I couldn't care less so I'm not about to research it.  I'll believe when shown indisputable proof. I know I have many unexplained questions that every religeous person answers with "God said so"  "You'll see when you die" etc....  Well it's all  until I see the proof.  And don't tell me to "just look around you".


Exactly what kind of proof would you like to see ?


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## Mikeinsmd

gumbo said:
			
		

> Exactly what kind of proof would you like to see ?


God himself come down and address me.  If that happens, I'll run 2A off these boards preaching!!    

I am agnostic.  I can't prove there isn't a God and you cannot prove there is.

Just so everyone understands, I hope there is a God.  A kind and FORGIVING God. But until I have indisputable proof......


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## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Maybe not but I could've sworn we were taught that.  I couldn't care less so I'm not about to research it.  I'll believe when shown indisputable proof. I know I have many unexplained questions that every religeous person answers with "God said so"  "You'll see when you die" etc....  Well it's all  until I see the proof.  And don't tell me to "just look around you".


 You've never spoken with Julius Caesar or anyone that knew him, but I'm sure you believe that he was killed by the Roman Senate on the Ides of March.  You have faith that what someone wrote and what someone taught you is true.  In essence, that's no different than my faith that what Jesus told the Apostles is true, and what they and their disciples wrote is true and has been passed on to me by the Church.

You've never seen an actual atom and its neutrons, protons, and electrons yourself, but I'm sure you believe what has been taught to you in science classes and in textbooks.  Again, you have faith that what someone wrote and what someone taught you is true.  Again, in essence, that's no different than my faith that what Jesus told the Apostles is true, and what they and their disciples wrote is true and has been passed on to me by the Church.

You can say you're agnostic, but you've never seen over half of what you've been taught in the world, and thus there are many things that you take completely in faith in those who taught it to you.  Why, then, would it be unnatural to have faith in a religious teaching, such as the existance of God, no matter what tradition it comes from?


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## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> You've never spoken with Julius Caesar or anyone that knew him, but I'm sure you believe that he was killed by the Roman Senate on the Ides of March.  You have faith that what someone wrote and what someone taught you is true.  In essence, that's no different than my faith that what Jesus told the Apostles is true, and what they and their disciples wrote is true and has been passed on to me by the Church.
> 
> You've never seen an actual atom and its neutrons, protons, and electrons yourself, but I'm sure you believe what has been taught to you in science classes and in textbooks.  Again, you have faith that what someone wrote and what someone taught you is true.  Again, in essence, that's no different than my faith that what Jesus told the Apostles is true, and what they and their disciples wrote is true and has been passed on to me by the Church.
> 
> You can say you're agnostic, but you've never seen over half of what you've been taught in the world, and thus there are many things that you take completely in faith in those who taught it to you.  Why, then, would it be unnatural to have faith in a religious teaching, such as the existance of God, no matter what tradition it comes from?


Because the things you mentioned can be proven by science.  I can't see Julius but I can be shown atoms.  

I could even help your theory by saying that since I've never seen my brain, my own logic would dictate that I have none.    But I know we have brains because science has proven that..... 

If you want me to believe there is a Supreme Being who created the universe and everything in it, a being that says if I don't believe in a book he supposedly wrote but will not prove to me he wrote that I will burn forever and will judge me one day when I die, you better show me tangible evidence he exists.


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## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Because the things you mentioned can be proven by science.  I can't see Julius but I can be shown atoms.
> 
> I could even help your theory by saying that since I've never seen my brain, my own logic would dictate that I have none.    But I know we have brains because science has proven that.....
> 
> If you want me to believe there is a Supreme Being who created the universe and everything in it, a being that says if I don't believe in a book he supposedly wrote but will not prove to me he wrote that I will burn forever and will judge me one day when I die, you better show me tangible evidence he exists.


 But, again, any science is something you've been taught by someone else.  You trust what someone else says, even though you yourself have not tangibly seen it.

You have faith, yet you don't even realize it.


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## gumbo

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> But until I have indisputable proof......



There is no such thing as indisputable proof that there is or is not .
The proof lies within ones own knowledge of the subject.
Seek and they shall find.

God will touch you if you believe and ask him too.
God will show you signs if you have faith and show you your indisputable proof. But only if you have faith and believe in him. This next part is the key.
However most will not humble themselves enough to truly open their hearts.
There are those who will not love unconditionally like that of a child and those who will not , will never know GOD !

This is a matter of what you will or will not do, "free will"

Brotherman this is not directed at you , it is figuratively speaking of the subject at hand.


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## BuddyLee

Very impressive argument but somehow it doesn't seem to hold a great deal of water.  It may or may not be true but most people in the world believe Julius Caesar died at the hands of the Senate of the time.  It may or may not be true but most people in the world accept the fact that there are atoms, neutrons, protons, and electrons.  You can basically take this argument with anything really.  If you have faith in this then why not this or that?  What do we really know?  If you're saying we have much faulty information about our history I would agree to a sense but overall I think we have a grip on most things.  Should we have faith in certain 'proven' things, I say yes.  If the majority of the people have debated such dealings in the past and have come to the overall conclusion that Caesar was killed by the Senate and there are such things as atoms, neutrons, protons, and electrons then we should have faith in that as long as we continue to use our new advancements to prove it otherwise.  The belief in God or God's is a widely accepted belief debated over the years by many.  Although many believe there is a God many others believe there is not.  The majority does not rule in either situation so how can we possibly come to a conclusion?  The conclusion comes down to personal opinion and not a ruling majority as to whether it's 'proven' that a God exists.


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## Triggerfish

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I told you it was hot.




Is it one of the XXX sauces like Dave's Insanity? or Smack My a$$ and call me Sally?


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## Mikeinsmd

Homesick said:
			
		

> wow. Thanks for typing this, Mike.
> It made me see how far I've come...and stranger still, I had forgot. To strange, I need a cookie. Night all. Good luck, Mike, and I truly mean it.


Ok, you've run out of responses to my posts.  Many others do this too. Like I said; "Because God said so", "I feel sorry for you", "I'll pray for you".  "Good luck Mike, you're going to need it". 

Sorry, but you're really not making a very convincing debate here......


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## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> But, again, any science is something you've been taught by someone else.  You trust what someone else says, even though you yourself have not tangibly seen it. You have faith, yet you don't even realize it.


Atoms exist. That wasn't a King George, VA fire cracker that exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki yanno..... I've never seen you, are you real???   This in my opinion is a silly argument.  The things I believe in that were taught to me by science are backed up by indisputable evidence and fact.  I guess because I've never "been to" or "seen" Asia, no tsunami hit it.  Hell, there's no such thing as a tsunami based on that theory!!


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## Mikeinsmd

gumbo said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as indisputable proof that there is or is not. The proof lies within ones own knowledge of the subject.
> Seek and they shall find. God will touch you if you believe and ask him too.
> God will show you signs if you have faith and show you your indisputable proof. But only if you have faith and believe in him. This next part is the key.
> However most will not humble themselves enough to truly open their hearts.
> There are those who will not love unconditionally like that of a child and those who will not, will never know GOD! This is a matter of what you will or will not do, "free will". Brotherman this is not directed at you , it is figuratively speaking of the subject at hand.


I know it's not directed at me G.  This is an interesting and friendly debate.  I respect your beliefs and am sharing mine and why I believe what I do. Here are some reasons for my position:  


Why would a being so great and powerful, so loving and caring, so wonderful say to a small fraction of the planet; 

"_Follow me, preach my teachings, worship me and if you do, when you die I will bring you to "my house" (heaven) the most glorius place you've ever seen.  Now, I'm going to put you on this planet, I'm going to create pain, suffering, torture, sickness, some humans will never even hear of me, yet if you do not believe, you cannot get into heaven._"   Why would a being do this??  


Why wouldn't he do this instead; 

_"Ok humans, I am God!!!  I am great, powerful, loving and caring.  I created the universe and I can take you out!!  I'm going to put you on earth with wonderful living conditions, love, peace and friendship amongst all mankind.  I will be visible in the sky to everyone!!!  I will walk this planet with you.  If you need something, just ask and you shall have it!!  And guess what!!  I saved the best part for last.  You're going to enjoy this AWESOME life here for about 80 years at which time I am going to take you to an even better place....heaven!!!"  All I ask for in return is that you worship me, pray to me and love me.  Spread my word to your offspring and you will know euphoria!! 

"Now humans there is a catch!!  I have these 10 rules here. If any of you breaks them, you will go to one of two other places I created.  Purgatory or hell!!  I will decide based on the severity of your crime.  You will experience the horrors and pain of fire for a duration that I will decide!!  The choice is yours._

That's MY interpretation of a God.  And remember, I'm not argueing that there is no God, only that I require proof.


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## mAlice

Mike, I spent the better part of my life searching, believing and having faith.  I really believed there was a god.  I still saw no miracles.


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## Tinkerbell

God asks that we do not test him and that we do not demand of him. We cannot understand why he does the things he does. Some of it is beyond our understanding and He can see the "big picture" that we cannot see. He has had a plan since the beginning of time and we are but a blink in that plan, but necessary for the plan. You can't expect God to perform miracles just to make you believe. In reality, he is performing miracles all the time. Maybe some just don't know how to recognize them. I think babies are miracles. 

Faith is believing without proof. Maybe I need a God, and that's why I'm so willing to believe without irrefutable proof. I have all the proof I need to have faith in the existence of God. 

*But each person has to decide for themselves.* I think faith is a very personal thing. That's the greatest thing God gave us - FREE WILL. He wants us to love Him because we want to - not because He makes us love Him. 

By the way, God didn't write the bible, the prophets and apostles did.


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## morganj614

I do not limit myself to one friend, one food, one beverage, one shirt...to infinity. Why would I limit myself to one thought, one religion?


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## Mikeinsmd

Tinkerbell said:
			
		

> God asks that we do not test him and that we do not demand of him.      Why???





			
				Tinkerbell said:
			
		

> Some of it is beyond our understanding and He can see the "big picture" that we cannot see.     With all due respect, sounds like the blind leading the blind...





			
				Tinkerbell said:
			
		

> You can't expect God to perform miracles just to make you believe.     Why???





			
				Tinkerbell said:
			
		

> He wants us to love Him because we want to - not because He makes us love Him.    Then why will I go to hell if I don't believe??





			
				Tinkerbell said:
			
		

> By the way, God didn't write the bible, the prophets and apostles did.    Who instructed them??


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## mAlice

Ooh!  I have a question.

If there is really a god, why didn't he reveal himself to me in the same way he revealed himself to all of you believers?  I had the same faith, I prayed, I was saved.  I did everything all of you did.  There was no doubt at the time that there was a god.  :shrug:


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## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Atoms exist. That wasn't a King George, VA fire cracker that exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki yanno..... I've never seen you, are you real???   This in my opinion is a silly argument.  The things I believe in that were taught to me by science are backed up by indisputable evidence and fact.  I guess because I've never "been to" or "seen" Asia, no tsunami hit it.  Hell, there's no such thing as a tsunami based on that theory!!



Actually, this is not a silly point.  It is very simple.  I'm not saying that you can't prove that atoms are real, or that Julius Caesar is not real, or that brains aren't real, or that Asia isn't real, etc.  These things can be seen (save for Caesar), but I'd be willing to bet that you have never personally seen them.  Your criteria for believing in something, as stated by you, was that in order to believe in something, you had to tangibly experience it for yourself.  My simple point was that most of what you believe in, even things of science, are things that you have not personally seen or touched yourself.  Therefore, by your own argument, you should not believe in any of them.  Yet, you do, because you believe the people that have taught them to you.  Moreover, you seem to have absolute faith in them.

Furthermore, scientific theory is very rarely classified as "indisputable evidence and fact."  It is based upon hypothesis and experimentation.  Even some of Newton's Laws are being tested by current physics, and these were once thought of as "indisputable evidence and fact."  Again, I'm not saying that our scientific knowledge is invalid because of that, because there is knowledge that has stood the test of time; however, you can't say that science is indisputable.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> Actually, this is not a silly point.  It is very simple.  I'm not saying that you can't prove that atoms are real, or that Julius Caesar is not real, or that brains aren't real, or that Asia isn't real, etc.  These things can be seen (save for Caesar), but I'd be willing to bet that you have never personally seen them.  Your criteria for believing in something, as stated by you, was that in order to believe in something, you had to tangibly experience it for yourself.  My simple point was that most of what you believe in, even things of science, are things that you have not personally seen or touched yourself.  Therefore, by your own argument, you should not believe in any of them.  Yet, you do, because you believe the people that have taught them to you.  Moreover, you seem to have absolute faith in them.


Ok, lets stay on track.... I didn't say I had to touch it or experience it.  I said I want indisputable proof.  Thats all.  This proof exists for Asia, atoms, Ceasar etc.... The people who taught it, experienced it.  It's real.  It can be touched (sans Ceasar ).   

Again, you or anyone else cannot provide this proof that a God exists and I cannot provide that he does not.  Simple.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Homesick said:
			
		

> You've got it wrong, Mike. I do not "debate" on this subject. Its not really a debate, I see it more as people sharing what they believe. I responded to your post for it seemed everyone else passed it by, I wanted to give you a chance to come into the conversation or let you get off whats on your chest. I wished you good luck, as in meaning in life, in all things. You posted words I did not write, show me where I said "you're going to need it".  Truly the words you've written come to me as words I thought or said myself in the past. I can't or none here can turn a switch on for you, wish it to be that simple. I use to wish someone could. But that is where I was wrong, I was asking humans, when I needed to be talking with God. Believe me when I tell you I have just begun to stand up, when 2nd and others here have been walking. I have been where you are now, one reason I do not throw scripture, or "debate" as you call it. Because I know there is no sense to it. I can't make you see what I see and know now. Funny to me, I use to look at the words of believers and say "they all say the same thing, over and over again" not making any sense whatsoever, they're looney! And how can they believe in a God that lets so many terrible things happen to innocents. Where is He when I'm being mistreated. I cannot finish this, I just finish in saying He was there all along, I just did not seek Him. You don't believe, I do. We can leave it at that.


I wasn't quoting you specifically, just what I have heard in the past.  I also don't have anything on my chest.  I saw an opportunity to chime into a debate and took it.  It is a debate.  A fun, friendly debate (the best kind).  I believe I made many valid, unanswerable points in my other posts.  You are correct, no one can flip a switch and change my mind.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Again, you or anyone else cannot provide this proof that a God exists and I cannot provide that he does not.  Simple.



I agree, there is no proof.  However, if you examined things that you do believe in, I'd be willing to bet there is no proof to a great many things you hold as fact.  If that is true, then I'm merely making the observation that it shouldn't be a stretch to believe in religious teachings.  That's all.  I tend to believe that faith is a normal state in our life, not just the province of religious people.

Moreover, for something to be indisputable, it does have to be tangible.  A person can dispute anything, no matter how silly the argument, until he personally experiences it with his senses.  In fact, there are some philosophers who have said that even the senses themselves cannot be trusted, but I'll leave that one to people more wise than myself.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> I agree, there is no proof.  However, if you examined things that you do believe in, I'd be willing to bet there is no proof to a great many things you hold as fact.  If that is true, then I'm merely making the observation that it shouldn't be a stretch to believe in religious teachings.  That's all.  I tend to believe that faith is a normal state in our life, not just the province of religious people.  Moreover, for something to be indisputable, it does have to be tangible.  A person can dispute anything, no matter how silly the argument, until he personally experiences it with his senses.  In fact, there are some philosophers who have said that even the senses themselves cannot be trusted, but I'll leave that one to people more wise than myself.


Well instead of getting into the philosophies of whether or not the sky really is blue, lets keep to the common sense items such as I've never been to the moon but I know it's there....


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> Ooh!  I have a question.
> 
> If there is really a god, why didn't he reveal himself to me in the same way he revealed himself to all of you believers?  I had the same faith, I prayed, I was saved.  I did everything all of you did.  There was no doubt at the time that there was a god.  :shrug:


 Maybe he still has a plan for you further down the road... :shrug:


----------



## mAlice

dustin said:
			
		

> Maybe he still has a plan for you further down the road... :shrug:




That must be it.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> Mike, I spent the better part of my life searching, believing and having faith. I really believed there was a god. I still saw no miracles.


Let the atheist answer:

Because you didn't _believe_.  If you truly believed, you'd see miracles around every corner, trust me.  I have a friend that thinks it's a miracle when she gets to her destination in one piece.  And considering the way she drives, maybe it is.  When there's an accident somewhere remotely close to where she either was or was considering being, she says that angels were on her shoulder looking out for her and keeping her safe.  A miracle.

She _believes_.  You don't.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> She _believes_.  You don't.



I did then.  Hook, line and sinker.


----------



## DoWhat

elaine said:
			
		

> I did then.  Hook, line and sinker.


You have had a miracle when you went Bull riding.
It's a miracle you didn't break your neck.


----------



## mAlice

DoWhat said:
			
		

> You have had a miracle when you went Bull riding.
> It's a miracle you didn't break your neck.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> I did then. Hook, line and sinker.


But not really or you'd have seen EVERYTHING as a miracle.  True believers even find miracles in such mundane things as a rain shower when it's been hot and dry.

My aforementioned friend told me the reason my plane didn't crash is because she was praying for me and God looked over me as a special favor to her.  I love her, so I resisted the urge to direct her attention to more important things than my routine plane trip.  But, to her, my safe landing was a direct result of her prayers.  Never mind that there was no reason to believe my plane would go down in the first place.

She also believes that when she stubs her toe, it's because she was thinking impure thoughts and God punished her.  And when she _doesn't_ stub her toe, she thinks it's a result of her good behavior and she's being rewarded by God.

She _believes_.  You don't, or you'd have thought it was a miracle every day that your family was happy, safe and intact.  You'd have praised God when your car started in the morning.


----------



## vraiblonde

DoWhat said:
			
		

> You have had a miracle when you went Bull riding.
> It's a miracle you didn't break your neck.


EXACTLY!


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> But not really or you'd have seen EVERYTHING as a miracle.  True believers even find miracles in such mundane things as a rain shower when it's been hot and dry.
> 
> My aforementioned friend told me the reason my plane didn't crash is because she was praying for me and God looked over me as a special favor to her.  I love her, so I resisted the urge to direct her attention to more important things than my routine plane trip.  But, to her, my safe landing was a direct result of her prayers.  Never mind that there was no reason to believe my plane would go down in the first place.
> 
> She also believes that when she stubs her toe, it's because she was thinking impure thoughts and God punished her.  And when she _doesn't_ stub her toe, she thinks it's a result of her good behavior and she's being rewarded by God.
> 
> She _believes_.  You don't, or you'd have thought it was a miracle every day that your family was happy, safe and intact.  You'd have praised God when your car started in the morning.




I'm a Christian and have many Christian friends, we don't all think like this in terms of defining EVERYTHING as personal Miracles left and right.  It sounds like it could possible just be a matter of enormous grattitude to God for everything in her life, not miraculous events.  The Lord loves praise and as Christians we are to praise Him.  
Yes there are miracles that the Lord bestows us after prayer, supplication etc... but the stuff your friend says sounds like it could just be "christmatic" hypersuggestible occurences too.  Or she could just be polly-annic.   
Life happens, whether it be good or bad... Eitherway, to me it sounds a little overly "chrismatic"  -- kind of like when I knew a lady that tried to convince me she broke her arm one night because Satan had her in a dark hole and she couldn't get out and she was wrestling with Satan in the hole and then God intervened and she was thrown back to earth and .. BAM!!!! It was right in the living room floor missing a couch and thereby breaking her arm. :shrug: Its not really up to me to discern whether these miracles are really happening or not or whether they are circumspect for pschoanalysis, etc... I work on my own Christianity as much as I can and know I fall short in too many areas my darned self (being slow to anger one of them)...

I just know what happens in my own life and in my own heart and soul to know that God does exist. Its not based solely on friends trials and tribulations, but alot from my own trials and tribulations in life. Although things don't always go my own way doesn't mean God doesn't exist.  God does say No to what people want some times and that's why the scripture says not to lean on our own understandings and that his ways and thoughts are much higher than our ways and thoughts. etc.... come into play.  It builds your faith.  jmo


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> But not really or you'd have seen EVERYTHING as a miracle.  True believers even find miracles in such mundane things as a rain shower when it's been hot and dry.



I guess somebody forgot to tell me how to believe.  :shrug:


----------



## Mikeinsmd

No one has chosen to answer my questions in my 06:49am post...


----------



## PJay

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> No one has chosen to answer my questions in my 06:49am post...



 yes they did...


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Homesick said:
			
		

> yes they did...


Please, enlighten me.....


----------



## mAlice

Don't feel bad, Mike.  The only person to answer my question is an athiest.  What does she know?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

elaine said:
			
		

> Don't feel bad, Mike.  The only person to answer my question is an athiest.  What does she know?


But she tried....LOL  And she has a funny friend.


----------



## bedazzle

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> No one has chosen to answer my questions in my 06:49am post...




Hello Everyone.    I'm new here, I didn't expect this to be my first post, but I can't resist jumping in on this one. By the way, you guys have made me laugh out loud several times, I like ya'll.  

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth . . .  Don't be scared of me, I'm not a Jesus freak, but I do believe.

Way back in the beginning, the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a perfect world God gave them everything they needed.  One stipulation, don't eat the apple.  Eve talked Adam into it and that was the fall of man.  Sin.

God made man in his image, we have our own free will.  We're not robots. That's not love.  Loving God is up to us.  He wants more than anything for us to love him, but it's not forced on us. What the value of that?

There is a battle in the world -- Good vs. Evil -- God vs. Satan.

God did everything he could do to keep us from burning in hell -- he sent his Son to take our place.  

That's my take on it.


----------



## mAlice

bedazzle said:
			
		

> Hello Everyone.    I'm new here, I didn't expect this to be my first post, but I can't resist jumping in on this one. By the way, you guys have made me laugh out loud several times, I like ya'll.
> 
> Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth . . .  Don't be scared of me, I'm not a Jesus freak, but I do believe.
> 
> Way back in the beginning, the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a perfect world God gave them everything they needed.  One stipulation, don't eat the apple.  Eve talked Adam into it and that was the fall of man.  Sin.
> 
> God made man in his image, we have our own free will.  We're not robots. That's not love.  Loving God is up to us.  He wants more than anything for us to love him, but it's not forced on us. What the value of that?
> 
> There is a battle in the world -- Good vs. Evil -- God vs. Satan.
> 
> God did everything he could do to keep us from burning in hell -- he sent his Son to take our place.
> 
> That's my take on it.



Thank you for answering our questions.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

bedazzle said:
			
		

> Hello Everyone.    I'm new here, I didn't expect this to be my first post, but I can't resist jumping in on this one. By the way, you guys have made me laugh out loud several times, I like ya'll.  Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth . . .  Don't be scared of me, I'm not a Jesus freak, but I do believe. Way back in the beginning, the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a perfect world God gave them everything they needed.  One stipulation, don't eat the apple.  Eve talked Adam into it and that was the fall of man.  Sin. God made man in his image, we have our own free will.  We're not robots. That's not love.  Loving God is up to us.  He wants more than anything for us to love him, but it's not forced on us. What the value of that?
> There is a battle in the world -- Good vs. Evil -- God vs. Satan. God did everything he could do to keep us from burning in hell -- he sent his Son to take our place.  That's my take on it.


Welcome to the boards!!   You still didn't answer my questions but thanks and enjoy.  

Don't take anything seriously in here and you will have a blast!!


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> I guess somebody forgot to tell me how to believe. :shrug:


Me, I don't believe anything - there literally is nothing that I believe in so strongly that I can't change my mind if presented with new information.  I suspect you are the same way, which is why I say you don't _truly_ believe with unwavering faith.

No offense to Christians, but here I go:

Think about what it takes to believe and have faith in some invisible entity that no one has ever seen, heard or felt for themselves.  Yes, Christians say that they "see", "hear" and "feel" God, but it's decidedly subjective.

I put a red block down on the table and everyone in the free world will unanimously say, "Yep, that's a red block on a table."  But ask any 10 Christians at random about God, and you'll get 10 different answers.  2A sees and feels something I don't see and feel.  He would see my red block, but I don't see his God.

Now give that invisible man ultimate power and control over the whole entire universe!  You have to REALLY have some faith to believe that.


----------



## Pete

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Me, I don't believe anything - there literally is nothing that I believe in so strongly that I can't change my mind if presented with new information.  I suspect you are the same way, which is why I say you don't _truly_ believe with unwavering faith.
> 
> No offense to Christians, but here I go:
> 
> Think about what it takes to believe and have faith in some invisible entity that no one has ever seen, heard or felt for themselves.  Yes, Christians say that they "see", "hear" and "feel" God, but it's decidedly subjective.
> 
> I put a red block down on the table and everyone in the free world will unanimously say, "Yep, that's a red block on a table."  But ask any 10 Christians at random about God, and you'll get 10 different answers.  2A sees and feels something I don't see and feel.  He would see my red block, but I don't see his God.
> 
> Now give that invisible man ultimate power and control over the whole entire universe!  You have to REALLY have some faith to believe that.


God is a red block?


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Me, I don't believe anything - there literally is nothing that I believe in so strongly that I can't change my mind if presented with new information.  I suspect you are the same way, which is why I say you don't _truly_ believe with unwavering faith.




I'm that way now, but I wasn't always.  Like most young people, I was brought up to believe.  The only thing I didn't know was which faith.  It was in investigating those faith's and studying the bible and other literature that I came to the conclucion (rude awakening) that there simply is no god.

What I've been trying to convey to you each time I respond is that I did have that unwavering faith at one time, and during that time nothing special was revealed to me.


----------



## vraiblonde

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Why would a being so great and powerful, so loving and caring, so wonderful say to a small fraction of the planet;
> 
> "_Follow me, preach my teachings, worship me and if you do, when you die I will bring you to "my house" (heaven) the most glorius place you've ever seen. Now, I'm going to put you on this planet, I'm going to create pain, suffering, torture, sickness, some humans will never even hear of me, yet if you do not believe, you cannot get into heaven._" Why would a being do this??
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't he do this instead;
> 
> _"Ok humans, I am God!!! I am great, powerful, loving and caring. I created the universe and I can take you out!! I'm going to put you on earth with wonderful living conditions, love, peace and friendship amongst all mankind. I will be visible in the sky to everyone!!! I will walk this planet with you. If you need something, just ask and you shall have it!! And guess what!! I saved the best part for last. You're going to enjoy this AWESOME life here for about 80 years at which time I am going to take you to an even better place....heaven!!!" All I ask for in return is that you worship me, pray to me and love me. Spread my word to your offspring and you will know euphoria!! _
> 
> _"Now humans there is a catch!! I have these 10 rules here. If any of you breaks them, you will go to one of two other places I created. Purgatory or hell!! I will decide based on the severity of your crime. You will experience the horrors and pain of fire for a duration that I will decide!! The choice is yours._
> 
> That's MY interpretation of a God. And remember, I'm not argueing that there is no God, only that I require proof.


Okay, I'll take a stab at it:

That's what God DOES do - says "I am all-powerful and will lead you to glory BUT there's a catch..."  I don't think it's unreasonable for God to get something in return - following the Commandments - for all you're getting out of the deal.

As far as those who have never heard of God, and therefore can't believe in Him, well...maybe God doesn't want Ubangi tribesmen up in Heaven with him?  Maybe He couldn't care less about some Chinese communist coming to hang out?  Maybe He only wants who He wants and that's the end of it?

:shrug:


----------



## Goofing_Off

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Me, I don't believe anything - there literally is nothing that I believe in so strongly that I can't change my mind if presented with new information.  I suspect you are the same way, which is why I say you don't _truly_ believe with unwavering faith.
> 
> No offense to Christians, but here I go:
> 
> Think about what it takes to believe and have faith in some invisible entity that no one has ever seen, heard or felt for themselves.  Yes, Christians say that they "see", "hear" and "feel" God, but it's decidedly subjective.
> 
> I put a red block down on the table and everyone in the free world will unanimously say, "Yep, that's a red block on a table."  But ask any 10 Christians at random about God, and you'll get 10 different answers.  2A sees and feels something I don't see and feel.  He would see my red block, but I don't see his God.
> 
> Now give that invisible man ultimate power and control over the whole entire universe!  You have to REALLY have some faith to believe that.


 Well, for Christians, we believe that God has been revealed to us in Jesus Christ, who was true God Himself, and so the Apostles did see the miracles He performed and hear the words He said.  We trust that the Apostles and other disciples have not deceived us and have passed that information to us through their writings and teachings, which have been handed on to us through the generations, and we trust the people that have been a part of those generations.

Again, I don't see that being any different than trusting the non-religious historical writings that have been passed on to us.  It's the same concept, albeit about different topics.


----------



## rdonthehd

Has a little kid ever asked you something that you don't know the whole answer to so you just make something up? That's what I feel religion is like. The Romans made up Gods as did the ancient Greeks and Native Americans to explain things. (that's how I see it) I also think that the Old Testament, no matter what version you've read, is stories that have been passed down generation after generation until they were finally written down. That sounds like a huge game of grapevine to me, and you know how that game ends up. I also think that when the apostles wrote the New Testament that there was a lot of mushroom eating an hemp smoking going on then. I believe there was a man named Jesus who tried to get people to stop being awful and to be kind, as did Buddha, but I don't believe that Jesus did all the things Matthew, Mark, Luke and all the other dudes said he did in the way he did them. As for our chaotic world, we humans have screwed that up for ourselves. We don't need anything or anyone else to do that for us


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> What I've been trying to convey to you each time I respond is that I did have that unwavering faith at one time, and during that time nothing special was revealed to me.


What were you looking to have happen?  I mean, _something_ good must have happened to you in that time that you could attribute to God, right?


----------



## icebaby1111

Hi everyone.  New here.   

I don't judge anyone about there religious beliefs.  To each his own I guess.  I myself, believe.


----------



## vraiblonde

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> We trust that the Apostles and other disciples have not deceived us and have passed that information to us through their writings and teachings, which have been handed on to us through the generations, and we trust the people that have been a part of those generations.


Then why don't you believe that "God's" name is really Zeus or Jupiter?  Why don't you believe the religions that pre-date Christ and were the predominate ones until they were prohibited in favor of Christianity?  Why don't you trust the ancient Greeks and Romans like you trust the ancient Middle Easterners?

Not trying to be contentious, just trying to have a discussion.


----------



## Goofing_Off

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> Has a little kid ever asked you something that you don't know the whole answer to so you just make something up? That's what I feel religion is like. The Romans made up Gods as did the ancient Greeks and Native Americans to explain things. (that's how I see it) I also think that the Old Testament, no matter what version you've read, is stories that have been passed down generation after generation until they were finally written down. That sounds like a huge game of grapevine to me, and you know how that game ends up. I also think that when the apostles wrote the New Testament that there was a lot of mushroom eating an hemp smoking going on then. I believe there was a man named Jesus who tried to get people to stop being awful and to be kind, as did Buddha, but I don't believe that Jesus did all the things Matthew, Mark, Luke and all the other dudes said he did in the way he did them. As for our chaotic world, we humans have screwed that up for ourselves. We don't need anything or anyone else to do that for us



I myself will admit when I do not know something about my faith, because there are indeed many mysteries which I do not understand, and I am comfortable with that.  There is a lot I do not know about the material world, too, but that doesn't bother me, so I do not let the fact that I do not know everything about my faith trouble me either.

As far as trying to explain something to children, we have to talk to children in a more simple way to help them understand, so in trying to simplify things for them, we may sometimes make things up to help them understand.  For example, if I am telling a child who God is, then I probably portray Him with the usual imagery of a person (big white beard, a man, etc.) when in fact God is a spiritual being.  I do this knowing that their understanding will change as they grow.  It's not necessarily that I'm "making something up."


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> What were you looking to have happen?  I mean, _something_ good must have happened to you in that time that you could attribute to God, right?



I wasn't looking for anything, but after listening to everyone go on and on about why they believe, it sounds like something should have been revealed to me, like it was to them.  I just don't get.  What is this "holy spirit" thing that they got and I didn't?  Where are the miracles?  Why can they see god in a tree or a newborn baby and I can't?

Plenty of good and bad things happened during that time in my life, but I never saw them as miracles, or attributed them to a god or a demon.  Sh!t just happens.  :shrug:


----------



## Goofing_Off

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Then why don't you believe that "God's" name is really Zeus or Jupiter?  Why don't you believe the religions that pre-date Christ and were the predominate ones until they were prohibited in favor of Christianity?  Why don't you trust the ancient Greeks and Romans like you trust the ancient Middle Easterners?
> 
> Not trying to be contentious, just trying to have a discussion.


Faith is a choice in part.  I choose to believe in Christianity.  I've made a conscious decision as I've grown up to trust that my family did not decieve me in teaching me this faith, and that their ancestors did not deceive them through the generations, all the way back to my first family members who heard a disciple preach the Good News of Jesus, believed in it, and decided to become Christian.  I trust that in turn that that disciple was not deceived in learning about the faith all the way back to the Apostles and ultimately Jesus Himself.  Moreover, outside of my family, I trust that the Church has preserved this tradition faithfully throughout the ages itself.  Again, I choose to believe.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> Why can they see god in a tree or a newborn baby and I can't?


Because you don't _want_ to see it.  If you did want to see it, you would.



> Sh!t just happens.


And that's the difference - Christians don't believe that #### just happens.  They believe God made it that way and it's for a purpose.


----------



## vraiblonde

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> Again, I choose to believe.


Thank you.  That's what I'm trying to get across to Elaine.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Thank you.  That's what I'm trying to get across to Elaine.




Well, I know it's a choice.  When I made that choice, where was my freakin' miracle?  Where was my holy spirit?  _That's_ what _I'm_ trying to get to the bottom of.


----------



## rdonthehd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> I myself will admit when I do not know something about my faith, because there are indeed many mysteries which I do not understand, and I am comfortable with that.  There is a lot I do not know about the material world, too, but that doesn't bother me, so I do not let the fact that I do not know everything about my faith trouble me either.
> 
> As far as trying to explain something to children, we have to talk to children in a more simple way to help them understand, so in trying to simplify things for them, we may sometimes make things up to help them understand.  For example, if I am telling a child who God is, then I probably portray Him with the usual imagery of a person (big white beard, a man, etc.) when in fact God is a spiritual being.  I do this knowing that their understanding will change as they grow.  It's not necessarily that I'm "making something up."




I feel comfy not know somethings too, but when I think something doesn't make sense, I try to find an answer. I also know that you teach children in a way they can understand, but what I meant by that was, it seems to me that religion started out as a way to explain things away because we probably didn't have the means to rationalize back in the day (and sometimes today as well) I don't mean to disrespect or belittle anyone with faith, I mean, some people need something to turn to more than others.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> When I made that choice, where was my freakin' miracle? Where was my holy spirit? _That's_ what _I'm_ trying to get to the bottom of.


You made it conditional - "I'll believe IF you show me a miracle."  And when you didn't get a miracle, you stopped believing.

Faith means that you believe no matter what.  The story of Job is a great example of this - God gets into a pissing contest with Satan and ruins your life, you're not supposed to get mad, you're supposed to think there's a reason for it and that God is looking out for your best interests.

They're called _followers _of Christ, not _leaders_.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> You made it conditional - "I'll believe IF you show me a miracle."  And when you didn't get a miracle, you stopped believing.
> 
> Faith means that you believe no matter what.  The story of Job is a great example of this - God gets into a pissing contest with Satan and ruins your life, you're not supposed to get mad, you're supposed to think there's a reason for it and that God is looking out for your best interests.
> 
> They're called _followers _of Christ, not _leaders_.





No, I didn't expect anything at the time.  We're looking at past and present thoughts.  The questions of where was my miracle or why couldn't I feel something never even occurred to me until today.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Vrai, may I ask why you say you're an atheist?  I can understand agnosticism, but I have a hard time understanding atheism.  It seems to me to be abundently evident that things must be created by someone or something.  To not believe that God created the world seems to me to be the same thing as telling me that a man did not build my computer and it spontaneously created itself.  How do you reconcile this?


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

>


Stop that - you'll mess up your makeup 

So then what made you stop believing, if you weren't expecting signs or miracles?  Why not just keep on believing, since you weren't looking for anything and it doesn't hurt you?


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Stop that - you'll mess up your makeup
> 
> So then what made you stop believing, if you weren't expecting signs or miracles?  Why not just keep on believing, since you weren't looking for anything and it doesn't hurt you?




Nothing worth changing the topic for.


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Because you don't _want_ to see it.  If you did want to see it, you would.
> 
> And that's the difference - Christians don't believe that #### just happens.  They believe God made it that way and it's for a purpose.




I'm Christian and I beileve that #### happens :shrug:  to me it does not mean God is in control any less, it just means I, in my small wisdom compared to God's infinite wisdom, just don't have an explanatino for it and may never know why somethings happen, I'm not God and its certainly NOT my place to judge God why things happen the way they do sometimes.  I, in my small wisdom just simply don't know the reason sometimes (it doesn't mean there isn't a reason for things happening)... so while I'm here on this planet and just because can't rationalize or understand why bad things happen, I'll continue to see it as "shiatt happens" scenarios.   I may or may never know why one day, but I'm not the one in charge - God is... just like I have good days or bad days... good experience in life and bad.... shiat just happens sometimes to all of us.  JMO(s).


----------



## PJay

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> It seems to me to be abundently evident that things must be created by someone or something. To not believe that God created the world seems to me to be the same thing as telling me that a man did not build my computer and it spontaneously created itself.



One of the very first things we "see", and yes, even those living in trees.


----------



## vraiblonde

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> Vrai, may I ask why you say you're an atheist? I can understand agnosticism, but I have a hard time understanding atheism. It seems to me to be abundently evident that things must be created by someone or something. To not believe that God created the world seems to me to be the same thing as telling me that a man did not build my computer and it spontaneously created itself. How do you reconcile this?


See, and I have a hard time with agnostics.  You either believe or you don't, which leaves agnostics out in the cold because if they're not sure, that means they don't believe.  Otherwise they'd be sure.

Obviously I'm an athiest because I don't believe in Gods and higher powers.  To me, God is a simplistic answer to how the universe got created, why humans act the way they do, why you should behave yourself and be a good citizen, etc.  It's how you reconcile questions that you don't know the answer to.

The earth was created over billions of years, with little atoms bonding together through trial and error until something stuck and life could be formed.  I don't believe there was an intelligent design - I believe humans as we know them are only temporary (relatively speaking) until something else evolves to take their place and they become extinct.  We see little accidents of nature all the time, just not huge ones that took a billion years to solidify.

There have been a myriad of religions and Gods throughout history that were just as real to those people as your God is to you.  And they lasted just as long as Christianity has so far.  So I think that modern religion is a passing phase that will be replaced by some other diety and belief system.  After all, at one point Greek and Roman mythology were modern religions.  :shrug:

The question of "Who made the earth?" is always replied to with "Well, who made God?" which is replied to with "God was always there."  So why couldn't the molecules that made up the universe have always been there?  Because, frankly, the perpetuity of molecules makes more sense to me than the perpetuity of a supreme being.


----------



## Goofing_Off

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> See, and I have a hard time with agnostics.  You either believe or you don't, which leaves agnostics out in the cold because if they're not sure, that means they don't believe.  Otherwise they'd be sure.
> 
> Obviously I'm an athiest because I don't believe in Gods and higher powers.  To me, God is a simplistic answer to how the universe got created, why humans act the way they do, why you should behave yourself and be a good citizen, etc.  It's how you reconcile questions that you don't know the answer to.
> 
> The earth was created over billions of years, with little atoms bonding together through trial and error until something stuck and life could be formed.  I don't believe there was an intelligent design - I believe humans as we know them are only temporary (relatively speaking) until something else evolves to take their place and they become extinct.  We see little accidents of nature all the time, just not huge ones that took a billion years to solidify.
> 
> There have been a myriad of religions and Gods throughout history that were just as real to those people as your God is to you.  And they lasted just as long as Christianity has so far.  So I think that modern religion is a passing phase that will be replaced by some other diety and belief system.  After all, at one point Greek and Roman mythology were modern religions.  :shrug:
> 
> The question of "Who made the earth?" is always replied to with "Well, who made God?" which is replied to with "God was always there."  So why couldn't the molecules that made up the universe have always been there?  Because, frankly, the perpetuity of molecules makes more sense to me than the perpetuity of a supreme being.


 So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer?

I know it seems silly, but something like this is ultimately to where that logic would lead.


----------



## dems4me

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer?
> 
> I know it seems silly, but something like this is ultimately to where that logic would lead.




I mentioned this theory a while back ago... about "every design implementing a designer" and got laughed out the forum and no one understood what I was getting at ... I'd give up and let them think what they want if I were you when its all said and done, they will believe what they really want to believe anyways in the end..


----------



## mAlice

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer?



This is just a theory   But wouldn't a man create a computer, just like he created a god?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> So, in essence, you do believe that it is possible for a computer's parts to randomly assemble to create a computer? I know it seems silly, but something like this is ultimately to where that logic would lead.


Bad example....., molecules and atoms etc. can haphazzardly come together to form a lifeform that evolves into man who builds the computer....Plastic pieces cannot.


----------



## dems4me

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Bad example....., molecules and atoms etc. can haphazzardly come together to form a lifeform that evolves into man who builds the computer....Plastic pieces cannot.




who created the molecules and atoms?

By your theory, who's to say that molecules and atoms didn't also create a huge almighty God before it happhazzardly formed people?


----------



## Tonio

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> The earth was created over billions of years, with little atoms bonding together through trial and error until something stuck and life could be formed. I don't believe there was an intelligent design - I believe humans as we know them are only temporary (relatively speaking) until something else evolves to take their place and they become extinct. We see little accidents of nature all the time, just not huge ones that took a billion years to solidify.


As I see it, evolution does not rule out the existence of a Supreme Being. It's completely silent on the issue, as it should be. The idea that God designed evolution and atomic structure, acting as a cosmic watchmaker, has some appeal for me. 

But that's not the same as "intelligent design," which I see as a Trojan horse for teaching Christian creationism in science classes. Now, creation stories from different religions can and should be discussed in comparative religion classes and philosophy classes. But that's not what intelligent design advocates want. They want it taught as scientific fact in science classes, displacing evolution which they (mistakenly) regard as anti-Christian. Intelligent design is not scientific--it starts with a preconceived premise and tries to prove it, rather than looking at available evidence and fashioning a hypothesis to fit the evidence. It's completely ass-backwards from traditional science. 

I don't believe that the existence of a Supreme Being or Beings can ever be proven or disproven using scientific methods. I don't understand why anyone would want to do so. Doesn't that go against the whole idea of faith?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

dems4me said:
			
		

> who created the molecules and atoms? By your theory, who's to say that molecules and atoms didn't also create a huge almighty God before it happhazzardly formed people?


Good question!! I'm impressed!!  

I don't think the molecules and atoms would skip over us lowly mortals and create the God first though....


----------



## vraiblonde

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I don't think the molecules and atoms would skip over us lowly mortals and create the God first though....


But you don't _know_ that, now do you?


----------



## vraiblonde

Dems, usually the simple grows into the complex, not the other way around.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> But you don't _know_ that, now do you?


Well you've never seen an atom!!!


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Dems, usually the simple grow into the complex, not the other way around.





Yes, and God seems very complex to me more so much more than an atom or molecule... not just me but to a lot of people, if it was something simple there woudln't be this thread, or so many other religious beliefs or nonbeliefs... :shrug:  God is God and people recreate... eggs and sperm... not spending billions of years trying to get the right atoms and molecules in the right exact order... also, how do you explain DNA... I thought the DNA paths explained away all the myths about people being created out of thin air :shrug:  For the longest time people couldn't figure out where people came from, etc... but there was "something" that created us... that "something" later came to be the black box which ruled out that people could never have been created out of thin air and then even Darwin's theory of a mystery black box that made people into people came out to be called DNA which prooved the opposite if I recall correctly. :shrug: 
If everything was all happhazardly being created wouldn't there be people part lizard and part human walking around, part bird and part human, part dog and part gorrilla?


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Dems, usually the simple grows into the complex, not the other way around.




here Vria, this link below may help...  -- "How can simplicity become complexity? Where did all that matter and energy come from? What caused its release? How did this explosion of everything (from nothing) order itself? Where did the chemical elements come from? Where did the mathematical laws and physical properties come from? Where did the information code in DNA come from? Where did the language convention that interprets DNA come from? How do we explain the design, complexity and fine-tuning inherent in spiral galaxies, solar systems and stars? How did life come from a rock? How did a bird come from a lizard? Why don't we see birds come from lizards today? Why are there no transitional fossils at all? Why have we never observed beneficial mutations? Explain the random development of the human eye, reproductive system, digestive tract and brain? What about the subconscious mind? What about love, morality, ethics and emotions?"

http://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/get-with-the-times.htm

Although not 100% my beliefs as it appears to be Christian Science, it may help answer your questions froma scientific view or something :shrug:


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Bad example....., molecules and atoms etc. can haphazzardly come together to form a lifeform that evolves into man who builds the computer....Plastic pieces cannot.



How do you know that this can happen?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> How do you know that this can happen?


I have faith!!


----------



## dems4me




----------



## PJay

dems4me said:
			
		

>


----------



## dems4me

Homesick said:
			
		

>


----------



## Tonio

dems4me said:
			
		

> Why are there no transitional fossils at all?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx



> Feathered dinosaur fossil finds to date, together with cladistic analysis, provide convincing evidence that birds are in fact descendents of dinosaurs. They also suggest that many theropods may have had feathers, not just those that are especially similar to birds. In particular the smaller theropod species may all have had feathers, and possibly even the larger theropods (for instance _T. rex_) may have had feathers in their early stages of development after hatching. Large adult theropods are unlikely to have had feathers, however, as the need for insulation would be less important, since inertial heat retention would likely be sufficient to manage heat.


----------



## dems4me

Tonio said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx




that doesn't really proove anything to me, even if I was to believe it... petrodactyls (sp?) were birds too and they were dinosaurs and supposedly flew... what's the big deal if they think they MAY have had feathers :shrug: "may have had feathers in their early stages of development after hatching. Large adult theropods are unlikely to have had feathers" I don't think there's any way to conclusively proove whether they did or didn't have feathers... heck... alot of people don't even believe there were dinosaurs...(sounds like a good poll/survey )


----------



## dems4me

This is why I don't use snopes that often   I did a search for feathered dinosaurs and came up with this!!! 
:http://www.snopes.com/embarrass/celebrity/stewart.asp

Martha!! Martha!!! Martha!!! :


----------



## vraiblonde

dems4me said:
			
		

> Where did all that matter and energy come from?
> Matter
> Energy
> 
> What caused its release?
> See above
> 
> How did this explosion of everything (from nothing) order itself?
> It evolved over billions of years.  What we see as the universe today is not what it was 10,000 years ago.
> 
> Where did the chemical elements come from?
> Chemical elements
> 
> Where did the mathematical laws and physical properties come from?
> Those are inventions of man to descibe various actions and reactions of the atoms that make up our world
> 
> Where did the information code in DNA come from?
> DNA wasn't invented - it was always there and was only semi-recently discovered and the ability to "read" it was invented.
> 
> Where did the language convention that interprets DNA come from?
> Not sure what you mean by this.  All language was invented by man, whether it be computer code, verbal communication or DNA interpretation.
> 
> How do we explain the design, complexity and fine-tuning inherent in spiral galaxies, solar systems and stars?
> They evolved over time.  See the answer to "explosion of everything".
> 
> How did life come from a rock?
> I was unaware that life did come from a rock.  Cite your source, please.
> 
> How did a bird come from a lizard?
> I thought the theory was that lizards came from birds.  But "evolution" would be the answer.
> 
> Why don't we see birds come from lizards today?
> Live a million years and maybe you will.
> 
> Why are there no transitional fossils at all?
> There are plenty of transitional fossils on record.
> 
> Why have we never observed beneficial mutations?
> Are you crazy?  What do you call our natural immunities?  People used to die of the common cold and now they don't.  What do you call giraffes, who mutated in order to feed from the tops of trees where the other animals couldn't reach?  What about black people developing dark pigmented skin to keep them from frying in the African sun?
> 
> Explain the random development of the human eye, reproductive system, digestive tract and brain?
> Evolved over billions of years until it became what works and what we recognize today.  And it will continue to evolve - if you suddenly woke up a million years in the future, humans would be dramatically different than they are today.
> 
> What about the subconscious mind?
> What about it?
> 
> What about love, morality, ethics and emotions?
> Those are mergings of physiological and psychological traits.  Your brain fires neurons and chemicals in response to certain stimuli, and your history (the "nurture" part of the "nature vs. nurture") tells you to recognize those biological instances as "love" or "hate" or whatever.  What causes an emotional response in you will not cause an emotional response in everyone - you were taught to respond that way.
> 
> Morality and ethics are taught, not intrinsic.  And I give you any number of criminals to support that statement.


Honestly, Dems - didn't you take a single science or biology class in high school???


----------



## rdonthehd

my, my, bored mommy - you have all the answers don't you?   
I still like to think that since the beginning of time  people have  made up stories to substitue as answers when there where none.


----------



## vraiblonde

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> I still like to think that since the beginning of time people have made up stories to substitue as answers when there where none.


I agree with you.


----------



## Tonio

dems4me said:
			
		

> that doesn't really proove anything to me, even if I was to believe it..


 My point isn't about the scientific merits of evolution. My point is, you seem to imply that the evolutionary hypothesis is incompatible with Christianity. I don't see why they shouldn't be compatible, unless you interpret Genesis literally. As far as I can tell, the central teaching of Christianity (Jesus' redemption of humankind) has nothing to do with whether plants and animals were created in six days or evolved over billions of years.


----------



## gumbo

[Quote-vraiblonde]Why are there no transitional fossils at all? 
There are plenty of transitional fossils on record.[/Quote]

Name one that is a scientific fact.


----------



## gumbo

Tonio said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx



The whole artical is contradictory of it's self  

First the author says its regarded , then the author says its conclusive. Then the author says genealogical details are still being worked out.
Another words they don't know Jack.

I don't know who's better at twisting words  scientist or preachers ?


----------



## Dondi

Tonio said:
			
		

> My point isn't about the scientific merits of evolution. My point is, you seem to imply that the evolutionary hypothesis is incompatible with Christianity. I don't see why they shouldn't be compatible, unless you interpret Genesis literally. As far as I can tell, the central teaching of Christianity (Jesus' redemption of humankind) has nothing to do with whether plants and animals were created in six days or evolved over billions of years.



It does when talking about the concept of sin. The crux of the debate lies in the dilemma that if there the story of Adam and Eve is simply a myth and we evolved from Neanderthals, then the Fall of Man never occurred, per se, hence Original sin did not originate from Adam and therefore we aren't accountable to God for our sins. Any teaching of the redemption through Jesus Christ is therefore moot.


----------



## Kain99

Dondi said:
			
		

> It does when talking about the concept of sin. The crux of the debate lies in the dilemma that if there the story of Adam and Eve is simply a myth and we evolved from Neanderthals, then the Fall of Man never occurred, per se, hence Original sin did not originate from Adam and therefore we aren't accountable to God for our sins. Any teaching of the redemption through Jesus Christ is therefore moot.


That's just silly.  Why can't we belive that Adam and Eve were hairy people?


----------



## Dondi

Kain99 said:
			
		

> That's just silly.  Why can't we belive that Adam and Eve were hairy people?




I guess my point is that when did the first real humans appear? Were they Homo Sapiens, Neaderthal,Cro-Magnon, Lucy? Where does the "animal" end and human begin? There is supposedly 5 million years of human evolution. When would God have said, OK, these are the first real humans, named Adam and Eve?


----------



## Tonio

Dondi said:
			
		

> It does when talking about the concept of sin. The crux of the debate lies in the dilemma that if there the story of Adam and Eve is simply a myth and we evolved from Neanderthals, then the Fall of Man never occurred, per se, hence Original sin did not originate from Adam and therefore we aren't accountable to God for our sins. Any teaching of the redemption through Jesus Christ is therefore moot.


Not all Christians interpret everything in the Bible literally. For theological purposes, does it really matter how Original Sin originated? 

In other threads, I've expressed my personal objections to the Original Sin doctrine. In my view, OS implies that sin is inherent in humankind and that humans are evil and worthless. And even the word "sin" is confusing to me, because it also means forbidden actions like theft and adultery. It doesn't seem right or logical that a person could refrain from sinful actions for a lifetime and still be considered evil and worthless because of inherent sin. It's like the system is gamed against humans no matter what we do. That's one reason I feel that Christian doctrine portrays God as impossible to please. Despite Christians' statements to the contrary, it seems to me like Christianity often portrays God's love as conditional.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Bad example....., molecules and atoms etc. can haphazzardly come together to form a lifeform that evolves into man who builds the computer....Plastic pieces cannot.


 What's ironic about your statement is that this is the very definition of "spontaneous generation," which I believe was disproven as a scientific theory, through experimentation, several hundred years ago.  To you, then, this theory should have indisputedly been proven false.

It's interesting how one can believe that inanimate matter can spontaneously and randomly combine to form living things, yet this same inanimate matter cannot spontaneously and randomly combine to form non-living things.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I have faith!!


 Indeed you do, though you don't seem to realize it.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> What's ironic about your statement is that this is the very definition of "spontaneous generation," which I believe was disproven as a scientific theory, through experimentation, several hundred years ago.  To you, then, this theory should have indisputedly been proven false.
> 
> It's interesting how one can believe that inanimate matter can spontaneously and randomly combine to form living things, yet this same inanimate matter cannot spontaneously and randomly combine to form non-living things.


Sure it can.... different substances are combined naturally all the time forming non-living things.  Clouds & storms for example....  Why do you keep going off on tangents?? 

Several hundred years ago??  You mean back when science was cutting edge??    

Again no one except Vrai has attempted to answer my question.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> Indeed you do, though you don't seem to realize it.


My you seem to think you know a lot about me.  I don't have the kind of faith you think I do.  That's a fact.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> My you seem to think you know a lot about me.  I don't have the kind of faith you think I do.  That's a fact.


 You have unwavering faith in science, as you've indicated over and over again in this thread.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Sure it can.... different substances are combined naturally all the time forming non-living things.  Clouds & storms for example....  Why do you keep going off on tangents??
> 
> Several hundred years ago??  You mean back when science was cutting edge??
> 
> Again no one except Vrai has attempted to answer my question.


 I'm not going off on a tangent; I'm responding directly to a statement you have made. I'm not sure that the cloud or storm analogy is correct, though, because a cloud is merely a collection of water vapor. It's not like two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom came together spontaneously to form the cloud.

Just because a scientific experiment took place several hundred years ago does not invalidate it; all the science you trust today was developed upon the science that preceded it.

You'll have to remind me; what exactly was the single question you were looking to have answered?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> You'll have to remind me; what exactly was the single question you were looking to have answered?


My post from 06:49am yesterday.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I know it's not directed at me G.  This is an interesting and friendly debate.  I respect your beliefs and am sharing mine and why I believe what I do. Here are some reasons for my position:
> 
> 
> Why would a being so great and powerful, so loving and caring, so wonderful say to a small fraction of the planet;
> 
> "_Follow me, preach my teachings, worship me and if you do, when you die I will bring you to "my house" (heaven) the most glorius place you've ever seen.  Now, I'm going to put you on this planet, I'm going to create pain, suffering, torture, sickness, some humans will never even hear of me, yet if you do not believe, you cannot get into heaven._"   Why would a being do this??
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't he do this instead;
> 
> _"Ok humans, I am God!!!  I am great, powerful, loving and caring.  I created the universe and I can take you out!!  I'm going to put you on earth with wonderful living conditions, love, peace and friendship amongst all mankind.  I will be visible in the sky to everyone!!!  I will walk this planet with you.  If you need something, just ask and you shall have it!!  And guess what!!  I saved the best part for last.  You're going to enjoy this AWESOME life here for about 80 years at which time I am going to take you to an even better place....heaven!!!"  All I ask for in return is that you worship me, pray to me and love me.  Spread my word to your offspring and you will know euphoria!!
> 
> "Now humans there is a catch!!  I have these 10 rules here. If any of you breaks them, you will go to one of two other places I created.  Purgatory or hell!!  I will decide based on the severity of your crime.  You will experience the horrors and pain of fire for a duration that I will decide!!  The choice is yours._
> 
> That's MY interpretation of a God.  And remember, I'm not argueing that there is no God, only that I require proof.



Well, this question is not answerable.  First, since I am not God, I cannot begin to tell you why God does things the way He does them.  Second, you're applying human logic to why God should or shouldn't be doing things.  I cannot understand God completely.  I cannot even understand everything that occurs in this material world, so why would I expect to be able to understand its Creator?  If I could completely understand God, then indeed He would not be God, since this simple human could comprehend Him.

Finally, you greatly oversimplify the tenents of the Christian faith.  I'm sorry, but I don't exactly have the time to try to spell it all out right at the moment.  Greater men than I have spent their whole lives doing just that, and I have spent my whole life learning about it.

I'm really not trying to be snide or to avoid your question, but part of faith is the ability to accept mysteries.  There's no way I could begin to explain things to you to your satisfaction, so I'd rather just admit that and move on.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Homesick said:
			
		

> This one: This was answered. But he does not "see" so therefore he cannot or will not accept the answer.


See Homesick, you are the type I refer to... The "God says so", "He's there you just don't believe" types.  You have no credibility!!  Answer the question directly!!  You cannot, therefore you have not!!


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> *Well, this question is not answerable.*  I'm really not trying to be snide or to avoid your question, but part of faith is the ability to accept mysteries.  There's no way I could begin to explain things to you to your satisfaction, so I'd rather just admit that and move on.


FINALLY!!!  A straight and honest response!!  Kudos to you Goofing Off!!  I have the utmost respect for you.  Thank you!!! 

Homesick, you can learn from Goofing Off!!  He has credibility!!


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Homesick said:
			
		

> Too, Mike, I meant how could you accept that answer. You want _visual_ proof. You want to see Him yourself. Therefore if we say "only God knows", then really how could your question ever be answered by people, it would have to come from God Himself. So why do you ask us, most sure you already knew that.


You're getting jumbled up here..... the fact that I want to see him is because I require proof.  Has nothing to do with my question.

Regarding my question, instead of pages of posts trying to convince me He exists, you all should have simply responded like G. O. did; "We don't know." :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I'm agnostic and I always ask those who tell me I'm going to hell or purgatory for not believing; "What about the people living in tree tops along the Amazon? Why does God make them burn when they never even heard of Him??" I always get the deer in the headlight look.... :shrug:


I'm a "little" behind in this thread, but I am convinced when I see posts like this that people don't read what is posted in the Religion forum; they just come here to argue. I won't accommodate them.

   Mikeinsmd,
  If you are really interested in an answer to "Why does God make them burn when they never even heard of Him??", try reading some of my posts. You will find that your statement is not true. If you are not interested enough to search for the answer, then I know you are not really interested, and I will not bother answering further posts from you regard the subject of Christianity.


----------



## Goofing_Off

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> You're getting jumbled up here..... the fact that I want to see him is because I require proof.  Has nothing to do with my question.
> 
> Regarding my question, instead of pages of posts trying to convince me He exists, you all should have simply responded like G. O. did; "We don't know." :shrug:


 I would just like the clarify that in every one of my posts, I was not trying to convince you that God exists.  Only you can convince yourself of that.  I was simply trying to show you the flaws that I see in your logic that prevent you from believing in God.  I don't think I was able to do that, but I made my attempt, in what I hope you recognize was a good spirit.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I'm a "little" behind in this thread, but I am convinced when I see posts like this that people don't read what is posted in the Religion forum; they just come here to argue. I won't accommodate them.
> Mikeinsmd, If you are really interested in an answer to "Why does God make them burn when they never even heard of Him??", try reading some of my posts. You will find that your statement is not true. If you are not interested enough to search for the answer, then I know you are not really interested, and I will not bother answering further posts from you regard the subject of Christianity.


I don't recall directly asking you a question.  When and if I ever have a question for you, I will address you specifically. And you are correct, I'm not that interested. I saw a thread and decided to participate.  I didn't come here to argue.  Read the entire thread before making such a comment. 

A post in this thread:


			
				Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I saw an opportunity to chime into a debate and took it.  It is a debate.  A fun, friendly debate (the best kind).


----------



## 2ndAmendment

rdonthehd said:
			
		

> Since I was a little kid, I have visited many many religious institutions looking for my own answers because the ones I was getting didn't make sense to me. I don't know what answer I'm looking for, but I will know it when I find it. (does that make sense?)





			
				jazz lady said:
			
		

> It makes perfect sense to me. I've tried many different religions, different churches, different preachers - you name it - and have never found the "fit" for me. Maybe someday I'll find it as I will never give up hope but if I don't, I can live with that.
> 
> That is not to say I am not a spiritual person. My beliefs are a very personal and very real thing to me. I was an angry and bitter person for many years. Through my personal spiritual journey, I've learned to let go of the anger, forgive those for what they've done to me, and open my heart again. It has made a world of difference in my life and I am a much better person for it. It may not work for everyone but for me it does.


 I suggest to you both that you are looking for your answers in humans instead of God. All ministers are going to have flaws just as every other human has flaws. I suggest that you look to God to find answers and then find a group you are comfortable with to worship with. They may not be an exact match (I have never found one.), but there will be a group that you are comfortable with. A good church fit will feel like a good family; the family you have wanted, not necessarily the one you were born in to.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> I would just like the clarify that in every one of my posts, I was not trying to convince you that God exists.  Only you can convince yourself of that.  I was simply trying to show you the flaws that I see in your logic that prevent you from believing in God.  I don't think I was able to do that, but I made my attempt, in what I hope you recognize was a good spirit.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I suggest that you look to God to find answers and then find a group you are comfortable with to worship with. They may not be an exact match (I have never found one.), but there will be a group that you are comfortable with.
> 
> 
> 
> From both of their posts, I gathered they were doing just that and haven't found the perfect one.  Am I wrong?
Click to expand...


----------



## jazz lady

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> From both of their posts, I gathered they were doing just that and haven't found the perfect one. Am I wrong?


You are correct in my case.  It doesn't have to be perfect either - just a good fit.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> God himself come down and address me.  If that happens, I'll run 2A off these boards preaching!!
> 
> I am agnostic.  I can't prove there isn't a God and you cannot prove there is.
> 
> Just so everyone understands, I hope there is a God. A kind and FORGIVING God. But until I have indisputable proof......


The life of Jesus is a historical fact. Even the Muslims recognize that He lived on this earth. Jews even recognize that He lived and walked among people. The evidence is indisputable except by the most ignorant of history.

 The disagreement comes as to whether Jesus is God come as man. "Is Jesus the Son of Man?" is the question. There is much evidence that He performed many miracles both in the Bible and in documents not included in the Bible. He fulfilled every prophesy of the Old Testament which is the Torah of the Jews regarding the coming of the Messiah. Some of these events happened regarding His birth; something He could not have chosen to fulfill if He was consciously trying to fulfill the prophesies.

 Belief is just that; faith is just that. If you see a rock and pick it up and throw it in the water, you do not need faith to believe that there is a rock. Someone that comes along and did not see the rock before you threw it in the water has to have faith that you saw the rock and had it in your hand and that you threw it in the water. It is by your testimony that the person believes you had the rock. The same applies to Jesus. Those that lived with Him saw and heard Him. They experienced what He did. They saw or personally experienced the miracles. Even Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples, did not believe the report of the resurrection of Jesus. 





> *John 20:24-25*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26892">24</sup>But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26893">25</sup>So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."


We have the account of the proof provided to Thomas and the reason why the gospels were written; so that by their testimony, we would believe.





> *John 20:26-31*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26894">26</sup>After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26895">27</sup>Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26896">28</sup>Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26897">29</sup>Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26898">30</sup>Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;     <sup id="en-NASB-26899">31</sup>but *these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.*


 In court, the testimony of a few people given before a group of 12 is used to determine the guilt or innocence of people in our legal system. We have the evidence of written documentation from many people that Jesus is who He is, the embodiment of God in human form, the Son of Man, the Savior provided for all who accept, and the Lord of all. By that testimony we either choose to believe or not believe. At that point, the eventual blessing or consequence of our decision is on us.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Those that lived with Him saw and heard Him. They experienced what He did. They saw or personally experienced the miracles.


 I really wish they'd join the discussions on this forum.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Because the things you mentioned can be proven by science. I can't see Julius but I can be shown atoms.


Much of science is not proven but is theory. Most humans accept those theories. Why?

   Remember that the best scientists as recently as 1492 believed that the earth was flat.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> I really wish they'd join the discussions on this forum.


And I wish you wouldn't since you never seem to have anything of real worth to offer.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> And I wish you wouldn't since you never seem to have anything of real worth to offer.


 I meant that as in "because it'd be interesting/credible to hear this stuff from a first-person perspective" vs. many-years-old hearsay. 

 Real "Christian" attitude you're representin'.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Triggerfish said:
			
		

> Is it one of the XXX sauces like Dave's Insanity? or Smack My a$$ and call me Sally?


Blair's After Death or Possible Side Effects or Mega Death. I had them all there at the party.


----------



## Dondi

Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:

What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means.  Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.

What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.

I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it? 

The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> I meant that as in "because it'd be interesting/credible to hear this stuff from a first-person perspective" vs. many-years-old hearsay.
> 
> Real "Christian" attitude you're representin'.


Your original remark smacked of your normal snideness. If I misunderstood your intent, sorry.

  As to your original remark, we have their testimony. Just as we have Einstein's testimony about the theory of relativity. He is not here to give us his explanation directly. We accept his writings on the subject. I ask why people do not accept the writings of those that experienced Jesus while He walked on the earth.

 My attitude is quite Christian since we are instructed to not cast our pearls before swine.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> My attitude is quite Christian since we are instructed to not cast our pearls before swine.


  You're also instructed to judge not lest thee be judged.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Much of science is not proven but is theory. Most humans accept those theories. Why?   Remember that the best scientists as recently as 1492 believed that the earth was flat.


Agreed... I mean the touchy/feely kind of science.  I was going to use the "world was flat" in a responding post myself when someone mentioned science from 300 yrs. ago.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Don't feel bad, Mike.  The only person to answer my question is an athiest.  What does she know?


Hi elaine. I saw your question, but I know your mind is made up. Love ya'.


----------



## dems4me

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> Well, this question is not answerable.  First, since I am not God, I cannot begin to tell you why God does things the way He does them ....



 

Vria - yes of course I took science and biology growing up but after all, wasn’t that too penned by man?  I just don't see how people can say God is something man created and yet lay soo much stock in scientific analysis and theory.  To me that is something that man clearly penned and created more so than the Bible - if X equals Y in scientific analysis... that’s because man made it in theory for X to equal Y.  Man also came up with scientific anaysis and reasoning. :shrug: So if the Bible is penned by man and the science and biology facts are penned by man... sometimes you just have to go with your heart. 

Eitherway, I think  we will have to agree to disagree on whether there is a Christ or not.  I just don't see how people can say atoms and molecules were floating around haphazardly all these years and created people... molecules and atoms do still exist in today’s day and age too... correct? Why wouldn't they still be floating around banging into each other and still creating people or half versions of people, mixing ducks with gorilla's, creating things that grow in the water that turn into a walking man eventually, or better yet still have half ape and half man creatures walking around.  
Where are these half staged people?  Where’s the scientific proof they even existed?  More significantly, where are they now in today’s day and age?  After all there's still atoms, molecules, lakes and plankton, etc. all around us ? 

What is it that makes a man think right from wrong, gives man a set of morals and a form conscientiousness?  To me, its just something in your heart.  Although still life forms, -- bugs, plants and some other living things don’t have a conscientious - there’s something in the human being that sets us apart from apes and I don’t believe it was a just a fluke, stroke of luck, combination of atoms and molecules slamming around the atmosphere that gave us a heart, also instincts in animals, brains in humans, bodies replete with central nervous systems, emotions, different fingerprints for everyone, different thoughts and ideas, etc I just don't buy into the atom and molecule theory or that we evolved from apes. :shrug:  

When its all said and done, I know there's a God and a Jesus, just like I know there are 5 fingers on my hand.  I don't sit around contemplating it and recounting and recounting and recounting and further recounting the fingers on my hand to invalidate or contradict what I know to be true , just the same as I don’t sit around trying to negate all the truths of all my generations of my family wrong, millions of other Christians and their families wrong... truth is... I’m just not that darned special or smarter than them and it would be ridiculous to think that I was the “enlightened” one after centuries and centuries of Christian doctrine and Truth that still applies today..:shrug:   What I find absolutely amazing is that if you ask the Lord to speak to your heart and open a Bible and start reading -- it talks to my heart - just the same as it did for the Apostles some 2000 years ago and early Christians.  After all this time, the Word of the Lord still applies to daily life, in spite of all the changes that has happened all around us over the years.

I strongly and unwaveringly believe in the God of the Bible and that the Word of God is the Bible. This is why we have to agree to disagree on this issue. :shrug:  There's nothing that anyone can tell me that will make me distrust my faith in the slightest or give me any reservations to my belief in God.  The same for the girl that got killed at Columbine for not denying her Christianity, its something that she just new in her heart to be real and true, I don’t think she was setting out to be a martyr she was just standing by her faith and convictions and what’s truly deep down in her heart and soul. :shrug:  

I've seen the glory of God and will continue to choose to walk down that path.  Truth is, when its all said and done, and all the facts are laid on the table, from science to Christianity  to Buddhism, to Muslim beliefs, to crossbows or pagan shrines, its just something you know and believe in your heart.  If you want the Lord in your heart, ask him to enter your 
heart :shrug:  “ask and He shall enter”  

Have a safe a blessed day! 

Love ya’ 
Dems


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I put a red block down on the table and everyone in the free world will unanimously say, "Yep, that's a red block on a table."


But if you remove that red block and toss it into a wood chipper or something to remove all physical evidence that that red block ever existed, did it exist? Is there any evidence? There is your testimony and the testimony of any others that saw it. That is what Christian and the rest of the world has. We have the testimony of those that saw Jesus or directly experienced God as Moses and the Jews did in the parting of the Red Sea or the Jordan River.


----------



## crabcake

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> Very impressive argument but somehow it doesn't seem to hold a great deal of water. It may or may not be true but most people in the world believe Julius Caesar died at the hands of the Senate of the time. It may or may not be true but most people in the world accept the fact that there are atoms, neutrons, protons, and electrons. You can basically take this argument with anything really. If you have faith in this then why not this or that?


 Personally speaking, it comes down to what's believable ... common sense. Murder is comprehendable (people do it every day; not saying I condone it or understand why someone does it, but they do it and you see it done); the existence of my brain or atoms ... comprehendable/explainable. You can actually _see_ them, and science's explanation of them makes sense.

 But when you try to tell someone "there's this supreme being out there who knows all, sees all, controls all" ... yet there's no physical evidence (as with a brain, an atom ... just what essentially boils down to hearsay), that's not comprehendable/believable to many.


----------



## vraiblonde

dems4me said:
			
		

> Vria - yes of course I took science and biology growing up but after all, wasn’t that too penned by man?


  Woof.

No, Dems, science is not "penned" by man - it is _studied_ by man.  If you have doubts about science, then why all this talk about reproductive organs and celestial bodies?  Why not believe that babies come from the cabbage patch and stars are God's nightlights?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Dems, usually the simple grows into the complex, not the other way around.


Really? Don't maintain your house or car and see how rapidly the complex breaks down into its basic parts.


----------



## crabcake

crabcake said:
			
		

> Personally speaking, it comes down to what's believable ... common sense. Murder is comprehendable (people do it every day; not saying I condone it or understand why someone does it, but they do it and you see it done); the existence of my brain or atoms ... comprehendable/explainable. You can actually _see_ them, and science's explanation of them makes sense.
> 
> But when you try to tell someone "there's this supreme being out there who knows all, sees all, controls all" ... yet there's no physical evidence (as with a brain, an atom ... just what essentially boils down to hearsay), that's not comprehendable/believable to many.


 And to continue with that, and 2As "block in the wood chipper" theory, with religion, it's different. A block is insignificant ... religion is something that people have and continue to fight over. Yet there's no way to go back and get that evidence. All we're left with is a book which has been chopped up over time and of which there are many versions of. How is one to know just what the truth really is/was? :shrug:


----------



## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Woof.
> 
> No, Dems, science is not "penned" by man - it is _studied_ by man.  If you have doubts about science, then why all this talk about reproductive organs and celestial bodies?  Why not believe that babies come from the cabbage patch and stars are God's nightlights?




Yes, its studied by man just as the bible is studied by man too.  
Science was still and is still  100% mans thoughts and analysis, its not like the buzzards are out flying around scoping out the atomosphere and reporting back everything to be fact and man sitting around just "studying" it.   The idea of science and its notations came from somewhere...


----------



## Kain99

crabcake said:
			
		

> And to continue with that, and 2As "block in the wood chipper" theory, with religion, it's different. A block is insignificant ... religion is something that people have and continue to fight over. Yet there's no way to go back and get that evidence. All we're left with is a book which has been chopped up over time and of which there are many versions of. How is one to know just what the truth really is/was? :shrug:


Well... It's easy.  On one hand you can believe without proof and be safe.  On the other hand you can argue Science and use your intelligence atoms to disbelieve.  

Option number one:  Everyone is safe and no one gets hurt.

Option number two:  Horrendously risky.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> That's just silly. Why can't we belive that Adam and Eve were hairy people?


Man is created in the image of God. Do you think God looks like a hairy, hunchback man?

   God is so far beyond human comprehension we only perceive what He chooses to reveal to us. Some of us choose to ignore or refute what He reveals. Of course the Bible says that as we get closer to the last days of this creation, people will quit believing and even believers will fall away and stop believing. So... what is happening is all going according to Biblical prophesy.


----------



## crabcake

dems4me said:
			
		

> Yes, its studied by man just as the bible is studied by man too.
> Science was still and is still 100% mans thoughts and analysis, its not like the buzzards are out flying around scoping out the atomosphere and reporting back everything to be fact and man sitting around just "studying" it.   The idea of science and its notations came from somewhere...


 But science is actively practiced, tested ... there are 'things' scientists have to work with. To study religion, you read a book and (in some cases) practice what you preach/learn. But there isn't any 'product' of that study as with science. 

 Scientists study illness (a living patient), study medicines (an actual substance), and produce results (drugs that cure diseases). Where's the 'product' of one's study of religion? :shrug: Supposedly, you get into heaven, but how do you know if you haven't been and we haven't spoken to anyone who has.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> You're also instructed to judge not lest thee be judged.


Ah..here we go again. Ignored.


----------



## Kain99

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Man is created in the image of God. Do you think God looks like a hairy, hunchback man?
> 
> God is so far beyond human comprehension we only perceive what He chooses to reveal to us. Some of us choose to ignore or refute what He reveals. Of course the Bible says that as we get closer to the last days of this creation, people will quit believing and even believers will fall away and stop believing. So... what is happening is all going according to Biblical prophesy.


I'm going to be honest.  It doesn't matter what God looks like.  Arguments like these are where everything important gets lost.


----------



## crabcake

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Well... It's easy. On one hand you can believe without proof and be safe. On the other hand you can argue Science and use your intelligence atoms to disbelieve.
> 
> Option number one:  Everyone is safe and no one gets hurt.
> 
> Option number two:  Horrendously risky.


 You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Ah..here we go again. Ignored.


 Ah..here we go again. Hypocrite.


----------



## Kain99

crabcake said:
			
		

> You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:


Yeah but if I'm wrong, I'm still safe.  If you're wrong LOOK OUT!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> I'm going to be honest. It doesn't matter what God looks like. Arguments like these are where everything important gets lost.


Agreed.


----------



## dems4me

crabcake said:
			
		

> But science is actively practiced, tested ... there are 'things' scientists have to work with. To study religion, you read a book and (in some cases) practice what you preach/learn. But there isn't any 'product' of that study as with science.
> 
> Scientists study illness (a living patient), study medicines (an actual substance), and produce results (drugs that cure diseases). Where's the 'product' of one's study of religion? :shrug: Supposedly, you get into heaven, but how do you know if you haven't been and we haven't spoken to anyone who has.




Its all based on if you beileve in the inerrant Word of God.  Do you really think God would sit by and just watch his spoken word get chopped to oblivion by man through the years?  Isn't there something in the Bible (Revelations?) that strongly warn against changing any words of the Bible, etc... and that death will come to that person?
It is devinely written and I believe it... I pray and seek for help and guidance and I get it.  If anything in the worldd I know there's a God more than I know that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4.  Its just hard to describe... its something in your heart and is enriched through faith.


----------



## Kain99

dems4me said:
			
		

> Its all based on if you beileve in the inerrant Word of God.  Do you really think God would sit by and just watch his spoken word get chopped to oblivion by man through the years?  Isn't there something in the Bible (Revelations?) that strongly warn against changing any words of the Bible, etc... and that death will come to that person?
> It is devinely written and I believe it... I pray and seek for help and guidance and I get it.  If anything in the worldd I know there's a God more than I know that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4.  Its just hard to describe... its something in your heart and is enriched through faith.


Warning or no warning the Bible has been "chopped"


----------



## dems4me

crabcake said:
			
		

> You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:




  

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-7957162-3152718?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


----------



## crabcake

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Yeah but if I'm wrong, I'm still safe.  If you're wrong LOOK OUT!


 Perhaps. :shrug: I've never said there is no God ... as with others, and as I've said, I struggle with what I believe/disbelieve. And while -- aside from funerals -- I haven't stepped foot in a church in years; haven't picked up a bible recently except to pack it up to move; and haven't screamed "god" except while , I have to think that, if there _is_ a God, having lived a good life, having helped others where I could, having at least made some sort of effort to 'understand', I'd be 'safe' too. 

 It's not like those of us who've said "show me" are out committing atrocious sin in the process. Most of us are your everyday neighbor just living a decent, moral life.


----------



## crabcake

dems4me said:
			
		

> Its all based on if you beileve in the inerrant Word of God. Do you really think God would sit by and just watch his spoken word get chopped to oblivion by man through the years?


 Sure. :shrug: He sits by every day and watches as children are raped and killed; people die of starvation; villages are washed away by his own creation. If you ask me, that's a little worse than plagiarism.


----------



## Dondi

crabcake said:
			
		

> You have to believe for that to be true. For me to believe it, I'm like Mike ... I need to see some evidence. In all seriousness, with all the effort put forth in trying to convert people to religion, why not refocus that energy on working toward providing the proof they ask for ... who could have conceived that scientists could produce the things they have, but they did it. :shrug:



Reposted:

Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:

What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.

What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.

I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it? 

The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.


----------



## crabcake

Dondi said:
			
		

> Reposted:
> 
> Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:
> 
> What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.
> 
> What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.
> 
> I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it?
> 
> The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.


 I saw your post, but thanks for thinking of me. 

 I did the 'church/religion' thing for some time and didn't see/feel/sense any "proof". 

 But the theory you present is interesting. I'd like to see some evidence that it might be valid before twisting my brain to debate it.


----------



## mAlice

> What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.



You mean that stuff that I never experienced when I was all caught up in "the truth"?  I guess I wasn't good enough, 'cuz just like CC, I never experienced the voices in my head.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Sure it can.... different substances are combined naturally all the time forming non-living things. Clouds & storms for example.... Why do you keep going off on tangents??
> 
> Several hundred years ago??  You mean back when science was cutting edge??
> 
> Again no one except Vrai has attempted to answer my question.


Ever heard of Louis Pasteur? I am amazed that textbooks can present in one section that spontaneous generation was disproved by Pasteur and in another section present the theory of evolution which has its very base in spontaneous generation.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Dondi said:
			
		

> Reposted:
> Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God: What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.
> What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out. I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it? The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.


Like Crabcake, I saw your post too.... read our prior posts.  I don't want to hear the "Because God said so" or "If you really believe, you'll see" answers.  That's a cop out.  Holds no credibility. Sorry... I'm a touchy/feely kinda guy.


----------



## Dondi

crabcake said:
			
		

> I saw your post, but thanks for thinking of me.
> 
> I did the 'church/religion' thing for some time and didn't see/feel/sense any "proof".
> 
> But the theory you present is interesting. I'd like to see some evidence that it might be valid before twisting my brain to debate it.



I'm ok with subjective evidence, like all the things I listed. I've been particularly interested in investigating the near-death phenomena. I think this has given some compelling data, at least to me. For an interesting website on this matter, try www.near-death.com

Just if you are serious at looking into it.


----------



## dems4me

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Warning or no warning the Bible has been "chopped"




Well, then that's what brings us back to the old discussion of.. how do you know what parts to believe than and what not to believe.. alacart style.
How does a Christian only believe parts of the Bible?  Its either the infallible Word of God  or it isn't.  I believe the Bible to be true and correct 100%.  You can't pick and choose - kind of like on the commandments... was that something chopped up and really 110 commandments?  Maybe murder is really ok, but it was just written by man to be a wrong thing... I can't see how you can just believe in various parts of the Bible and not the other parts... how can you believe anything in the Bible when you are instructed as a Christian to compare scripture in light of other scripture when you think that its been chopped... how does one do this???


----------



## dems4me

crabcake said:
			
		

> Sure. :shrug: He sits by every day and watches as children are raped and killed; people die of starvation; villages are washed away by his own creation. If you ask me, that's a little worse than plagiarism.




Shiat happens crabcake... there's reasons for it even if we can't in our own little minds figure out the reasons, ... His ways are above our ways... without bad in the world, how wuold anyone know what good is?


----------



## crabcake

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Sorry... I'm a touchy/feely kinda guy.


 Me too, but in girl-form.


----------



## Nanny Pam

Dondi said:
			
		

> Reposted:
> 
> Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:
> 
> What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.
> 
> What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.
> 
> I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it?
> 
> The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.


----------



## dems4me

Dondi said:
			
		

> Reposted:
> 
> Here's the question I would pose to those who are trying to find "proof" of the existance of God:
> 
> What if God existed on another plane or dimension on a level indetectable to the current scientific methods and observations? What if He existed trancendent to Space/Time continuum? Afterall, there are scientists who propose mathematically in quantum physics that there may be as many as ten dimensions, yet we haven't been able to see these dimensions. This would then put God out of reach to the known physical world, yet it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, you just can't prove God by scientific means. Perhaps He planned it this way so that we can find Him in the only way He desires us to know him: through the spirit in man.
> 
> What if the only way to know God is through the God-given spirit in man which originated from Him? In connecting God through our spirit with His Spirit, we can know who He is and know His love for us without trying to figure Him out.
> 
> I know this seems subjective, but when there are people in all different religions claiming on seeing visions of God, dreams of God, coincidences that defy reason, near-death experiences in which they see God (even some athiests) in the spiritual realm, testamonies of people who have had remarkably answered prayer, changed lives, feeling of forgiveness, incomprehensable love which came as a result of a faith in an unseen God, when there are that many voices attesting to this same type of phenomena, then it's no longer subjective, is it?
> 
> The only way to "find" God is to seek Him with you spirit, if you seek Him with all your heart. You'll have your "proof" there.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Warning or no warning the Bible has been "chopped"


If you believe that, then what can you believe. All historical evidence of the manuscripts including the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that the Bible has not been "chopped".

 If even one word of the Bible is not trustworthy none of it is trustworthy. People are left to pick and choose what about the Bible is true and what is not. If the account of creation is not true then why is the account of Jesus and the resurrection true? If the account of the resurrection is not true, then followers of Christ, as Paul wrote, are truly most miserable.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> All historical evidence of the manuscripts including the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that the Bible has not been "chopped".




I disagree. I think these things indicate that the bible has indeed, been chopped.


----------



## Kain99

elaine said:
			
		

> You mean that stuff that I never experienced when I was all caught up in "the truth"?  I guess I wasn't good enough, 'cuz just like CC, I never experienced the voices in my head.


Powerful statement.


----------



## crabcake

dems4me said:
			
		

> Shiat happens crabcake... there's reasons for it even if we can't in our own little minds figure out the reasons, ... His ways are above our ways... without bad in the world, how wuold anyone know what good is?


 The overwhelming "reason" in my mind is because _he_ doesn't exist. I find it hard to believe that a "loving/forgiving God" would allow such atrocities to occur to innocent people ... to let one who commits such horrendous acts upon others to walk free and enjoy the remainder of their living days.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you believe that, then what can you believe. All historical evidence of the manuscripts including the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that the Bible has not been "chopped".


 Why, then, so many versions? :shrug: Shouldn't they all be identical? Or is it man's attempt at keeping the Gideon's from cornering the religious market?


----------



## Dondi

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Like Crabcake, I saw your post too.... read our prior posts.  I don't want to hear the "Because God said so" or "If you really believe, you'll see" answers.  That's a cop out.  Holds no credibility. Sorry... I'm a touchy/feely kinda guy.



I don't see this as a copout, I think it is legitimately reasonable to consider the stories of other people. They are merely testifying their experiences with this type of phenomena. Don't witness count for something. I know in a court of law it does. If you take my theory about God being trancedent to time/space, then how else are we going to find him. 

BTW, I already mentioned in another post that I see God in this diverse creation, but this is only suppliments my belief in God. I just cannot see how mindless chaos could create everything we see. There has to be something guiding it. I'm ok with that and your view. If you don't see God in creation, I'm suggesting another means.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> I disagree. I think these things indicate that the bible has indeed, been chopped.


There are far more first century manuscripts of the Book of Mark than there are of the Iliad yet people choose to not find any fault with Homer and disregard Mark. I propose that it has to do with the human nature and arrogance of not wanting to recognize that humans are not in control and that humans are answerable for their actions.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Well... It's easy.  On one hand you can believe without proof and be safe.  On the other hand you can argue Science and use your intelligence atoms to disbelieve.
> 
> Option number one:  Everyone is safe and no one gets hurt.
> 
> Option number two:  Horrendously risky.


Back to my question.... Why would this powerful, loving, caring, wonderful entity hurt me??   Why won't he hear my question and answer it??


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> The overwhelming "reason" in my mind is because _he_ doesn't exist. I find it hard to believe that a "loving/forgiving God" would allow such atrocities to occur to innocent people ... to let one who commits such horrendous acts upon others to walk free and enjoy the remainder of their living days.


Did you miss the part where the earth is satan's kingdom until Jesus returns? I think you may be blaming the wrong supernatural being.


----------



## dems4me

crabcake said:
			
		

> The overwhelming "reason" in my mind is because _he_ doesn't exist. I find it hard to believe that a "loving/forgiving God" would allow such atrocities to occur to innocent people ... to let one who commits such horrendous acts upon others to walk free and enjoy the remainder of their living days.




Because shiat happens, the World is not a perfect world, nor is it supposed to be... if it was heaven on earth... why strive to spend eternity in heaven.. shiat happens here on earth, to you, to me, to everyone...without bad, we would never know good... without darkness in the world, we'd never know light...


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Did you miss the part where the earth is satan's kingdom until Jesus returns? I think you may be blaming the wrong supernatural being.



The devil made her do it.


----------



## Kain99

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you believe that, then what can you believe. All historical evidence of the manuscripts including the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate that the Bible has not been "chopped".
> 
> If even one word of the Bible is not trustworthy none of it is trustworthy. People are left to pick and choose what about the Bible is true and what is not. If the account of creation is not true then why is the account of Jesus and the resurrection true? If the account of the resurrection is not true, then followers of Christ, as Paul wrote, are truly most miserable.


 
Yes it was, at Constantinople.  

The ecumenical councils of 381, 553, 681, and 869; the Trullan Council (692), very important for the history of canonical legislation; the councils of 712 and 878 which ratified, respectively, Monothelism and the revolt of Photius against Rome.

Maybe you are saying that yes, the early "unreal"  Bible was chopped but not the new one.


----------



## Kain99

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Back to my question.... Why would this powerful, loving, caring, wonderful entity hurt me??   Why won't he hear my question and answer it??


Why did your Daddy whip your azz when you were little?  Did he love you?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why, then, so many versions? :shrug: Shouldn't they all be identical? Or is it man's attempt at keeping the Gideon's from cornering the religious market?


There are different translations in different languages. Even English has changed in usage and form since the King Jame's version was written. Some versions are paraphrases, The Living Bible, The Good News, etc. The meaning compared side by side is consistent.

  Gideon never wrote a Bible but he is a person in the Bible. The Gideons is a group that distributes Bibles for free.


----------



## Tonio

crabcake said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe that a "loving/forgiving God" would allow such atrocities to occur to innocent people ... to let one who commits such horrendous acts upon others to walk free and enjoy the remainder of their living days.


I find it hard to believe that a "loving/forgiving God" would create Hell, or even allow Hell to be created by Satan or whoever.


----------



## mAlice

Homesick said:
			
		

> Scripture, please. Know you're a busy man, but when you get time, I would very much like to read it.
> 
> Thank you 2A.




It's there, I've read it.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Did you miss the part where the earth is satan's kingdom until Jesus returns? I think you may be blaming the wrong supernatural being.


 I thought I was on ignore. 

 For me to believe _that_, I'd have to believe in the existence of God, which I do not. Nor do I discount the existence of God. I'm humble and have enough integrity to just say, "I really don't know" which is why I ask the questions I ask ... but never get answers to, except, "God/the bible said so".


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Why did your Daddy whip your azz when you were little?  Did he love you?


He did it BC I did something I wasn't supposed to.  Doesn't answer my question.  My dad wasn't your God.  He didn't create the universe.  He wasn't perfect.  God supposedly is.  So I'm still answerless.  None of you can answer it.  Goofing Off is the only one who admitted it.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Tonio said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe that a "loving/forgiving God" would create Hell, or even allow Hell to be created by Satan or whoever.


My point ed zachary!!!


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> There are different translations in different languages. Even English has changed in usage and form since the King Jame's version was written. Some versions are paraphrases, The Living Bible, The Good News, etc. The meaning compared side by side is consistent.
> 
> Gideon never wrote a Bible but he is a person in the Bible. The Gideons is a group that distributes Bibles for free.



 

that is correct and the words that have altered some through the history of language (greek to hebrew, etc...) and if there is question, it has been carefully referenced with footnotes/reference notes in the Bible... the bible may say -- feet 1/    and then if you read where 1/ is it'll say -- (hebrew)foot.... it means vertually the identical same thing it doesn't say  -- feet 1/ and then say -- 1/ (hebrew) stones or spaceships...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Yes it was, at Constantinople.
> 
> The ecumenical councils of 381, 553, 681, and 869; the Trullan Council (692), very important for the history of canonical legislation; the councils of 712 and 878 which ratified, respectively, Monothelism and the revolt of Photius against Rome.
> 
> Maybe you are saying that yes, the early "unreal" Bible was chopped but not the new one.


If you read about those councils you will find that they chose to add things (the Apocrypha) in response to a Roman emperor that was trying to make Christianity all things to all people of the Roman Empire (polytheism [trinity] and female deity [deification of Mary]) and later remove those things (even the word trinity is not found in the Bible) that had been added by Rome that had not been accepted by the first century Christians.


----------



## Kain99

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> He did it BC I did something I wasn't supposed to.  Doesn't answer my question.  My dad wasn't your God.  He didn't create the universe.  He wasn't perfect.  God supposedly is.  So I'm still answerless.  None of you can answer it.  Goofing Off is the only one who admitted it.


Your father was created in God's image geez!


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Your father was created in God's image geez!


YOUR beliefs....not mine.


----------



## Kain99

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you read about those councils you will find that they chose to add things (the Apocrypha) in response to a Roman emperor that was trying to make Christianity all things to all people of the Roman Empire (polytheism [trinity] and female deity [deification of Mary]) and later remove those things (even the word trinity is not found in the Bible) that had been added by Rome that had not been accepted by the first century Christians.


Ok.... but really,  The Bible is basically hundreds of scrolls all rolled into one. Who decided which ones were appropriate and which were not?

I truly believe in God 2A.  You and I just see things differently.


----------



## Kain99

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> YOUR beliefs....not mine.


I'm sorry I just couldn't resist.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Homesick said:
			
		

> Scripture, please. Know you're a busy man, but when you get time, I would very much like to read it.
> 
> Thank you 2A.


Here.





> Job 1:7
> <sup id="en-NASB-12877">7</sup>The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."





> *Revelation 12:9*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-30902">9</sup>And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Why would a being so great and powerful, so loving and caring, so wonderful say to a small fraction of the planet;


God did not give His word to a small fraction of the planet. He instructed those He gave it directly to to 





> *Matthew 28:19-20*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-24215">19</sup>"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-24216">20</sup>teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."





			
				Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> "_Follow me, preach my teachings, worship me and if you do, when you die I will bring you to "my house" (heaven) the most glorius place you've ever seen. Now, I'm going to put you on this planet, I'm going to create pain, suffering, torture, sickness, some humans will never even hear of me, yet if you do not believe, you cannot get into heaven._" Why would a being do this??


We were created perfect to live forever with no pain, suffering, or even work. Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of Eden and talked directly with Y'howah, God. Pain, suffering, work and every human affliction is the result of the deception of Eve by satan and Adam by Eve and the original sin of disobedience of God.


			
				Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't he do this instead;
> 
> _"Ok humans, I am God!!! I am great, powerful, loving and caring. I created the universe and I can take you out!! I'm going to put you on earth with wonderful living conditions, love, peace and friendship amongst all mankind. I will be visible in the sky to everyone!!! I will walk this planet with you. If you need something, just ask and you shall have it!! And guess what!! I saved the best part for last. You're going to enjoy this AWESOME life here for about 80 years at which time I am going to take you to an even better place....heaven!!!" All I ask for in return is that you worship me, pray to me and love me. Spread my word to your offspring and you will know euphoria!!
> 
> "Now humans there is a catch!! I have these 10 rules here. If any of you breaks them, you will go to one of two other places I created. Purgatory or hell!! I will decide based on the severity of your crime. You will experience the horrors and pain of fire for a duration that I will decide!! The choice is yours._
> 
> That's MY interpretation of a God. And remember, I'm not argueing that there is no God, only that I require proof.


He basically did that. He originally walked and talked with Adam and Eve. He allowed Moses to see His glory as He passed by. He declares that He is loving, awesome, powerful, forgiving of those that believe Him and a destroyer of those that refuse to believe Him.

 He gave us His prophets, scribes, and the apostles of Jesus to present the account of creation and His works of the Old Testament and His plan of salvation in the New Testament.

    He has given us the choice to believe or not believe. Our choice. Our consequences.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> He basically did that. He originally walked and talked with Adam and Eve. He allowed Moses to see His glory as He passed by. He declares that He is loving, awesome, powerful, forgiving of those that believe Him and a destroyer of those that refuse to believe Him.


 k, so why doesn't he do that nowadays? :shrug: Is he on hiatus? Did he toss his hands up in the air and just say "screw it; I give up"? What was so special about those people vs. people today? 

 And as sarcastic as that sounds, yes, I'm serious.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Ok.... but really, The Bible is basically hundreds of scrolls all rolled into one. Who decided which ones were appropriate and which were not?
> 
> I truly believe in God 2A. You and I just see things differently.


I believe you do. I also believe you believe in Jesus as your Savior.

   The matter of belief in God is not the question. As I have posted before, satan believes in God. Satan has been in God's presence. Satan has seen God face to face. Satan with a third of the angels chose to rebel against God. The were cast down on earth and live among us.

  The question is "Do you have Jesus as Savior and Lord?". (Not you Kain. You have said you believe in Jesus as your Savior before and I take that at face value.) God has presented His plan for every person of the world. It is up to Christians to accept the job of proclaiming the plan of salvation. It is not a Christian's job to convince anyone to believe. It is a Christian's job to proclaim and if someone believes, to help in the growth of that person to the point where they too proclaim God's plan of salvation. One becomes two and two become four and four become eight and ... That is the way it has been and should be since Jesus ascended into heaven.


----------



## mAlice

elaine said:
			
		

> You mean that stuff that I never experienced when I was all caught up in "the truth"?  I guess I wasn't good enough.





I'd still like a response to this.  Why was I not good enough to experience whatever it is that christians are supposed to experience.  The thing that convinces them that there's something to believe, an enlightenment, if you will.


----------



## dustin

crabcake said:
			
		

> k, so why doesn't he do that nowadays? :shrug: Is he on hiatus? Did he toss his hands up in the air and just say "screw it; I give up"? What was so special about those people vs. people today?
> 
> And as sarcastic as that sounds, yes, I'm serious.


 What are you basing these observations on? i.e. sources


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> I'd still like a response to this.  Why was I not good enough to experience whatever it is that christians are supposed to experience.  The thing that convinces them that there's something to believe, an enlightenment, if you will.


 Compare loving God to lovin your BMW. It's got all the good stuff, and brings happiness to your life, but if you treat it wrong it will put you in a ditch.


----------



## crabcake

dustin said:
			
		

> What are you basing these observations on? i.e. sources


 Well, outside the National Enquirer, I haven't seen/heard any reports of God talking to people, parting seas, etc. I've never experienced it, nor anyone I know. 

 The closest thing to a "God-like" act I can attest to was when my Grandmother died (literally, those last couple breaths), she looked up and her eyes -- which hadn't opened for a day or two -- got really wide like she was seeing something we couldn't. But the realist in me can also fathom that being the physical reaction of one's last breath.


----------



## mAlice

dustin said:
			
		

> Compare loving God to lovin your BMW. It's got all the good stuff, and brings happiness to your life, but if you treat it wrong it will put you in a ditch.




So you're saying I treated god wrong by going to church several times a week, being saved, saying my prayers, having bible study at least once a week, abstaining from anything and everything that might even remotely be viewed as bad/immoral/unhealthy, and truly believing?

Yeah, I guess I can see where I went wrong.


----------



## dustin

crabcake said:
			
		

> Well, outside the National Enquirer, I haven't seen/heard any reports of God talking to people, parting seas, etc. I've never experienced it, nor anyone I know.
> 
> The closest thing to a "God-like" act I can attest to was when my Grandmother died (literally, those last couple breaths), she looked up and her eyes -- which hadn't opened for a day or two -- got really wide like she was seeing something we couldn't. But the realist in me can also fathom that being the physical reaction of one's last breath.


 So you are looking for huge miracles? Or for the little miracles?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> k, so why doesn't he do that nowadays? :shrug: Is he on hiatus? Did he toss his hands up in the air and just say "screw it; I give up"? What was so special about those people vs. people today?
> 
> And as sarcastic as that sounds, yes, I'm serious.


Nope. He didn't give up. He gave the job to Christians. Some of us don't follow our commission. Some of us do a miserable job of proclaiming. Some of us try to argue people into believing (I fell into that category. I try not to do it now.) And some, like Billy Graham do a fairly good job of proclamation.

  Some people claim to be Christian but mislead people. They are the wolves in sheep's clothing that the Bible warns of. That is the reason it is important for people to read the Bible and compare what a person is preaching to the teachings of the Bible. If a person is contradicting the Bible, then that person is not a shepherd but a wolf.

   I wish I could pray a prayer or do something magical that would make everyone that reads this thread believe and the spread the Good News, but I can't. I proclaim and try to answer questions to the best of my Biblical knowledge. I try not to take offense, but I sometimes fail because I am human.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> So you're saying I treated god wrong by going to church several times a week, being saved, saying my prayers, having bible study at least once a week, abstaining from anything and everything that might even remotely be viewed as bad/immoral/unhealthy, and truly believing?
> 
> Yeah, I guess I can see where I went wrong.




Maybe your faith is or was being tested, like in the Book of Job


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> I'd still like a response to this.  Why was I not good enough to experience whatever it is that christians are supposed to experience.  The thing that convinces them that there's something to believe, an enlightenment, if you will.



It's not about being good enough to experience God.  You come to God as you are, faults, sins, inadequacies, everything. You have to be totally honest and open to God. Come to Him with the attitude of wanting to know Him, seeking with your whole heart. Pray for His Love to be manifested to you. Release yourself to Him. I don't know how else to explain it. But if you're serious with God, you will find Him. It takes daring humility. I pray you will find this Love of God, elaine. Seek it fervently.


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> So you're saying I treated god wrong by going to church several times a week, being saved, saying my prayers, having bible study at least once a week, abstaining from anything and everything that might even remotely be viewed as bad/immoral/unhealthy, and truly believing?
> 
> Yeah, I guess I can see where I went wrong.


 What went wrong was that your heart was either never in the right place, or you "slipped" and skidded out from the love. All those things you talk about....thats based on a type of religion. What's important is what you feel in the inside. When you get that straightened out, then everything else will follow.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> I'd still like a response to this. Why was I not good enough to experience whatever it is that christians are supposed to experience. The thing that convinces them that there's something to believe, an enlightenment, if you will.


 No one can convince anyone to believe. I offer this.





> *Matthew 8:5-13*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23351">5</sup>And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23352">6</sup>and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23353">7</sup>Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23354">8</sup>But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23355">9</sup>"For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23356">10</sup>Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23357">11</sup>"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23358">12</sup>but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23359">13</sup>And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> So you're saying I treated god wrong by going to church several times a week, being saved, saying my prayers, having bible study at least once a week, abstaining from anything and everything that might even remotely be viewed as bad/immoral/unhealthy, and truly believing?
> 
> Yeah, I guess I can see where I went wrong.


Remember the scribes and Pharisees also were very religious. Going to church and doing "all the right things" gets us nowhere. People cannot earn their way into the kingdom of God. It is only by God's grace that we are saved. God knows our heart. I still have great hope for you.


----------



## crabcake

dustin said:
			
		

> So you are looking for huge miracles? Or for the little miracles?


 I'm not looking for anything in particular. I guess you could say there were "miracles" in my life ... the birth of my daughter (who was the result of well-timed sex); that I didn't get shot when I was carjacked (perhaps the guy was too high on coke to figure out how to use the gun); that I didn't kill my ex-h for being a jackass at times during our marriage (that was self-control on my part and knowing I'd get him back later). 

 Other "miracles" ... ill people being cured -- modern medicine; survivors of the tsunami -- they got lucky ... it just all boils down to one's beliefs, and mine aren't such that I chalk everyday happenings up to "God's work" when I see God ignoring so many other things. :shrug:


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> So you're saying I treated god wrong by going to church several times a week, being saved, saying my prayers, having bible study at least once a week, abstaining from anything and everything that might even remotely be viewed as bad/immoral/unhealthy, and truly believing?
> 
> Yeah, I guess I can see where I went wrong.


 Or maybe your just not ready yet :shrug: 

If youre not ready to believe yet, that's ok, noone should pressure you into believing something you don't want to.

In the meantime, keep questioning,....and you will come to a conclusion eventually.


----------



## mAlice

The one thing you all seem to be missing is that I did believe, with all of my heart.  So, if god does exist, I'll just have to assume that he isn't interested in me and has no place for me.  TYVM.


----------



## Nanny Pam

crabcake said:
			
		

> The closest thing to a "God-like" act I can attest to was when my Grandmother died (literally, those last couple breaths), she looked up and her eyes -- which hadn't opened for a day or two -- got really wide like she was seeing something we couldn't. But the realist in me can also fathom that being the physical reaction of one's last breath.




I beg to differ, my little cupcake.  

Mom had been on heavy Morphine (sp) for 2 days.  She didn't have an _ounce_ of strength in her tiny, frail little body.  Remember....we couldn't even get her to drink.  We gave her ice chips.  The Morphine we gave her was in liquid form.
I *know* that Mom saw God.   How do I know this?  I can't answer that ... but I *know* it.  I believe in what I saw her face "do."  Where did that light (in her face) come from?  It came from her *knowing* she was going to her reward.  (which she definately deserved after raising her kids)  


..... and that is all I can say right now.


----------



## dustin

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for anything in particular. I guess you could say there were "miracles" in my life ... the birth of my daughter (who was the result of well-timed sex); that I didn't get shot when I was carjacked (perhaps the guy was too high on coke to figure out how to use the gun); that I didn't kill my ex-h for being a jackass at times during our marriage (that was self-control on my part and knowing I'd get him back later).
> 
> Other "miracles" ... ill people being cured -- modern medicine; survivors of the tsunami -- they got lucky ... it just all boils down to one's beliefs, and mine aren't such that I chalk everyday happenings up to "God's work" when I see God ignoring so many other things. :shrug:


 See it all depends on your prespective on life 

you know everyone has a choice to believe what they want. And everyone is gonna give you a different answer as to what they believe and how.

It's easy to overlook the good things in life while our media is exploiting the bad. Focus more on the positive, and you will see there is more out there...


----------



## dems4me

dustin said:
			
		

> What went wrong was that your heart was either never in the right place, or you "slipped" and skidded out from the love. All those things you talk about....thats based on a type of religion. What's important is what you feel in the inside. When you get that straightened out, then everything else will follow.




Kind of like the analogy of the post man that slips and falls down in the blinding snow delivering the mail, the point is, yes he slipped, but he didn’t stay on the ground thinking, why me? why did this happen? life sucks...etc.  He got back up and continued his route... he didn’t fall backwards and all the way down the street, he just slipped and feel where he was at....
Sometimes folks fall away from the Lord but instead of staying there wondering all the whys, sometimes its best to just get back up and start where you left off at.  This is encouraged in the Bible.  2A, what is the exact scripture for this where the Lord loves a repentant returner to the Lord more so than the love he has for someone that never left?  It happens, we all fall and slip at times and yes its humbling, but through spirit and faith you get back up and continue on your path, no matter what life throws at you.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> The closest thing to a "God-like" act I can attest to was when my Grandmother died (literally, those last couple breaths), she looked up and her eyes -- which hadn't opened for a day or two -- got really wide like she was seeing something we couldn't. But the realist in me can also fathom that being the physical reaction of one's last breath.


We are called to have the faith of a little child. Does K question everything you tell her? She believes you because you are her mommy. I believe God because He is my Father.

 My mother was in the hospital once. After she recovered, she told me that when she looked at us when my dad a I went to visit, that she saw Jesus standing behind us. 

    There are spiritual beings around us all the time. Sometimes we see them. Sometimes we don't see them. 




> *2 Kings 6:15-17*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-9690">15</sup>Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-9691">16</sup>So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-9692">17</sup>Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see " And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> The one thing you all seem to be missing is that I did believe, with all of my heart.  So, if god does exist, I'll just have to assume that he isn't interested in me and has no place for me.  TYVM.


 Are you looking for an answer? Or have you already decided and think you will never change your mind?


----------



## mAlice

dustin said:
			
		

> Are you looking for an answer? Or have you already decided and think you will never change your mind?



Why are you answering my question with a question?


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> Why are you answering my question with a question?


 I'm just having a hard time understanding where you are coming from, as this is never happened to me. 

I tried to explain what I know, but I believe your situation is past my experience level.  It would have been better if I had some kind of better insight for you to take in...

I wish you the best in trying to figure out what you want in life


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2A, what is the exact scripture for this where the Lord loves a repentant returner to the Lord more so than the love he has for someone that never left?


The parable of the prodigal son. 





> *Luke 15:11-32*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25600">11</sup>And He said, "A man had two sons.    <sup id="en-NASB-25601">12</sup>"The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me ' So he divided his wealth between them.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25602">13</sup>"And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25603">14</sup>"Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25604">15</sup>"So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25605">16</sup>"And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25606">17</sup>"But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25607">18</sup>'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25608">19</sup>I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25609">20</sup>"So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25610">21</sup>"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25611">22</sup>"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25612">23</sup>and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25613">24</sup>for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25614">25</sup>"Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25615">26</sup>"And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25616">27</sup>"And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25617">28</sup>"But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25618">29</sup>"But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25619">30</sup>but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25620">31</sup>"And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25621">32</sup>'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> The one thing you all seem to be missing is that I did believe, with all of my heart. So, if god does exist, I'll just have to assume that he isn't interested in me and has no place for me. TYVM.


God is certainly interested in you. He loves you just as He loves us all.


----------



## crabcake

dems4me said:
			
		

> Kind of like the analogy of the post man that slips and falls down in the blinding snow delivering the mail, the point is, yes he slipped, but he didn’t stay on the ground thinking, why me? why did this happen? life sucks...etc. He got back up and continued his route...


 WRONG!  He sued! 



			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Does K question everything you tell her?


 Of course she does ... she's 7!  Everything is "why", "how", and "what about ..." But as often as possible, vs. just saying "This is the answer", I tell her/help her to look into it, read about it, try it, and find the answer so she _knows_ for herself. I hated and still hate hearing "Cuz I said so" as an answer to a question I have, so I try my darndest _not_ to give her that as an answer to legitimate questions (not the usual "why do I have to go to bed" stuff), but have her search out the answers for herself so she can make her own choices in beliefs. 

 Her dad is a pretty spiritual believer, and enrolled her in bible school this summer, and she enjoys it. I won't discount that, or tell her she can't go when she comes home tomorrow. I won't tell her what to believe just because it's what I believe (or don't). It's her choice. I might even go with her and/or volunteer just to see if I can find answers to the questions I have. But I know those answers aren't gonna come via "Cuz I/God/the bible said so."


----------



## mAlice

dustin said:
			
		

> I'm just having a hard time understanding where you are coming from, as this is never happened to me.
> 
> I tried to explain what I know, but I believe your situation is past my experience level.  It would have been better if I had some kind of better insight for you to take in...
> 
> I wish you the best in trying to figure out what you want in life




I know what I want in life.

I'm just trying to understand what you, and others, are experiencing that I never experienced.  I probably searched harder and longer for the truth than any of you, so I just don't get it.


----------



## dems4me

crabcake said:
			
		

> WRONG!  He sued!
> 
> 
> Of course she does ... she's 7!  Everything is "why", "how", and "what about ..." But as often as possible, vs. just saying "This is the answer", I tell her/help her to look into it, read about it, try it, and find the answer so she _knows_ for herself. I hated and still hate hearing "Cuz I said so" as an answer to a question I have, so I try my darndest _not_ to give her that as an answer to legitimate questions (not the usual "why do I have to go to bed" stuff), but have her search out the answers for herself so she can make her own choices in beliefs.
> 
> Her dad is a pretty spiritual believer, and enrolled her in bible school this summer, and she enjoys it. I won't discount that, or tell her she can't go when she comes home tomorrow. I won't tell her what to believe just because it's what I believe (or don't). It's her choice. I might even go with her and/or volunteer just to see if I can find answers to the questions I have. But I know those answers aren't gonna come via "Cuz I/God/the bible said so."




Maybe you should study some books in the field of Apologetics (knowing what you beileve and why you believe).


----------



## Dondi

You know, I grew up going to church, even got "saved' at 13. Later in life, I'd gone as about as far away as you can get from God, even to the point where I seriously questioned His existance. It wasn't untill I was at a real low point in my life that I took a chance on God. It seemed like a blind thing to do at the time. Any inkling of God seemed like a million miles away. I really didn't expect much, but my heart was hurting bad and I had nowhere else really to turn. So, I just poured my heart out to a God I wasn't even sure was there and BOY, did I feel such a flood of love and forgiveness in my heart. It was just unconditional love flowing through me. I've never before felt this. It was like God reached down, picked me up and dusted me off and telling me, "Yeah, I'm here and I love you." I would have everyone know this Love. I pray it for anyone who is seeking God honestly and openly.


----------



## Tonio

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> He loves you just as He loves us all.


It doesn't feel like that to me. It feels like God will never approve of us no matter what we do. It feels like that partly because so-called "men of God" like Jerry Falwell claim that 9/11 was God's punishment.


----------



## dustin

elaine said:
			
		

> I know what I want in life.
> 
> I'm just trying to understand what you, and others, are experiencing that I never experienced.  I probably searched harder and longer for the truth than any of you, so I just don't get it.


 I shouldnt have said "what you want in life"

I was just getting the impression you were looking for answers :shrug:


----------



## Goofing_Off

Wow, this thread just exploded today.  I'm glad I got out when I did!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> Of course she does ... she's 7!  Everything is "why", "how", and "what about ..." But as often as possible, vs. just saying "This is the answer", I tell her/help her to look into it, read about it, try it, and find the answer so she _knows_ for herself.


Oops. Forgot they grow up so quickly. She is not a "little child" and does not have "child like faith" anymore.





			
				crabcake said:
			
		

> I hated and still hate hearing "Cuz I said so" as an answer to a question I have, so I try my darndest _not_ to give her that as an answer to legitimate questions (not the usual "why do I have to go to bed" stuff), but have her search out the answers for herself so she can make her own choices in beliefs.


That is why you should read the Bible to find the answers. Faith comes through hearing and hearing through the Word.





			
				crabcake said:
			
		

> Her dad is a pretty spiritual believer, and enrolled her in bible school this summer, and she enjoys it. I won't discount that, or tell her she can't go when she comes home tomorrow. I won't tell her what to believe just because it's what I believe (or don't). It's her choice.


Good for you. 


			
				crabcake said:
			
		

> I might even go with her and/or volunteer just to see if I can find answers to the questions I have. But I know those answers aren't gonna come via "Cuz I/God/the bible said so."


But you see, the Bible is where the answers are. If you reject the word of God out of hand as being false without reading it and giving it the benefit of doubt, then where will you find any answers? Certainly not from people.


----------



## PJay

Dondi said:
			
		

> You know, I grew up going to church, even got "saved' at 13. Later in life, I'd gone as about as far away as you can get to God, even to the point where I seriously questioned His existance. It wasn't untill I was at a real low point in my life that I took a chance on God. It seemed like a blind thing to do at the time. Any inkling of God seemed like a million miles away. I really didn't expect much, but my heart was hurting bad and I had nowhere else really to turn. So, I just poured my heart out to a God I wasn't even sure was there and BOY, did I feel such a flood of love and forgiveness in my heart. It was just unconditional love flowing through me. I've never before felt this. It was like God reached down, picked me up and dusted me off and telling me, "Yeah, I'm here and I love you." I would have everyone know this Love. I pray it for anyone who is seeking God honestly and openly.



 

Do you think that's what it takes for everyone, "the low". I wonder this.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Tonio said:
			
		

> It doesn't feel like that to me. It feels like God will never approve of us no matter what we do. It feels like that partly because so-called "men of God" like Jerry Falwell claim that 9/11 was God's punishment.


We have been around this before. I can't convince you. Won't try.

   9/11 may have been a wake up call. God has used the armies of other nations to punish Israel so why wouldn't He use Muslims to punish us for departing from His ways? I'm not saying He did or didn't, I am saying it is certainly within the realm of possibility.


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> I know what I want in life.
> 
> I'm just trying to understand what you, and others, are experiencing that I never experienced.  I probably searched harder and longer for the truth than any of you, so I just don't get it.



Would you be seriously willing to try again? There is a parable about a persistent widow:

  "1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; 
   2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: 
   3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. 
   4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; 
   5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. 
   6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. 
   7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 
   8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:1-10

Be persistent. Insist on God.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Homesick said:
			
		

> Do you think that's what it takes for everyone, "the low". I wonder this.


I don't think everyone has to go to an "ultimate low" to yield their life to God, but it often happens that way.


----------



## Dondi

Homesick said:
			
		

> Do you think that's what it takes for everyone, "the low". I wonder this.



I dunno, but it definitely takes a certain humility to turn to God. God resists the proud, but give grace to the humble.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Dondi said:
			
		

> Would you be seriously willing to try again? There is a parable about a persistent widow:
> 
> "1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
> 2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
> 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
> 4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
> 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
> 6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
> 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
> 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:1-10
> 
> Be persistent. Insist on God.



 Our timing is not God's timing. Everything happens on His schedule not ours. We are impatient.
_Dear God, Please give me patience, and I want it now!.

_


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Homesick said:
			
		

> I think the "ultimate low" is the way to go.


If you mean complete yielding to God, yes.


----------



## BuddyLee

Nanny Pam said:
			
		

> I beg to differ, my little cupcake.
> 
> Mom had been on heavy Morphine (sp) for 2 days. She didn't have an _ounce_ of strength in her tiny, frail little body. Remember....we couldn't even get her to drink. We gave her ice chips. The Morphine we gave her was in liquid form.
> I *know* that Mom saw God. How do I know this? I can't answer that ... but I *know* it. I believe in what I saw her face "do." Where did that light (in her face) come from? It came from her *knowing* she was going to her reward. (which she definately deserved after raising her kids)
> 
> 
> ..... and that is all I can say right now.


 I think of that as a sort of great intuition. You cannot possibly prove it for sure but somehow you just know! I myself am at the crossroads, I love questioning things and learning both sides of the debate, that way I tend to learn more about the subject at hand. However, sometimes I will see something or feel something and question that! Some things are just too beautiful and some feelings are just too powerful sometimes for me not to believe there is a higher power. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
<o></o>

Last year we had a Buddhist guest speaker in one of my philosophy classes. After class I asked him "Do you believe in God and if so why? Why do you believe in God if you have never perceived God before?” He answered with "A few years ago I was introduced to infrared. I could see many things with infrared that I could not with my own eyes without infrared. Who's to say we do not have the ability to see God? Some of us may very well have that ability but not in the technological sense."<o></o>

<o></o>
Even in my own adventures in ghost hunting I myself will admit that just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it's not there. For instance, a blind man has a pencil put in front of him. The blind man cannot see the pencil but that does not exclude the fact that a pencil is still in front of him. <o></o>

<o></o>
I doubt any of this will change anyone's personal beliefs but I just wanted to get these thoughts out of my head and written somewhere.<o></o>


----------



## dems4me

Homesick said:
			
		

> Do you think that's what it takes for everyone, "the low". I wonder this.




The Lord came to me when I was growing up... things were traumatic and abusive growing up.  There was no one I could turn to and had thoughts of suicide at the age of 6 and 7, and then one night during a particular traumatic events growing up, the Lord took me under his wing.  
I don't want to go into much detail, but neither of my parents were religious or churchgoing, etc... but the Lord found me and has been my rock and foundation of strength ever since that night.  My finding the Lord was very much like that country song on the radio that's a story where the girl watches her parents get killed growing up and she's behind the couch and see's Jesus... that's kind of how it happened for me and that's why nothing on this planet will ever make my faith waiver.  He's my everything and always has been.  I've seen my entire close-family members obliterated through the years in one form or another through disease or addition to drugs and alcohol.  There is noone but God for me that is a constant in my life.

For me, my rock and sole source of strength is the Lord and always will be.  For alot of us HomeSick, its that way... I always wondered about some of these folks that are haughty with themselves.  If one day they were to wake up and have nothing in the world, and no family, parents, kids, spouse, friends, etc...what would they do with the emptiness?... my guess and bet is they'd seek the Lord out pretty quick.  Eitherway, everyone has had trials and tribulations, I think its a matter of keeping your faith through them and knowing in your heart that the Lord is really there and in existence or not.

Sorry if thats too much information - I'm sure it'll be used against me and I'll be flamed for saying this some time or other...  I was just trying to witness and give a brief synopisis of my faith and how it came to me.


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> Would you be seriously willing to try again?



No.  I've since learned too many things that would make it impossible to ever believe in a god again.


----------



## Dondi

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I think of that as a sort of great intuition.  You cannot possibly prove it for sure but somehow you just know!  I myself am at the crossroads, I love questioning things and learning both sides of the debate, that way I tend to learn more about the subject at hand.  However, sometimes I will see something or feel something and question that!  Some things are just too beautiful and some feelings are just too powerful sometimes for me not to believe there is a higher power. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
> <o></o>
> 
> Last year we had a Buddhist guest speaker in one of my philosophy classes.  After class I asked him "Do you believe in God and if so why?  Why do you believe in God if you have never perceived God before?”  He answered with "A few years ago I was introduced to infrared.  I could see many things with infrared that I could not with my own eyes without infrared.  Who's to say we do not have the ability to see God?  Some of us may very well have that ability but not in the technological sense."<o></o>
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> Even in my own adventures in ghost hunting I myself will admit that just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it's not there.  For instance, a blind man has a pencil put in front of him.  The blind man cannot see the pencil but that does not exclude the fact that a pencil is still in front of him.  <o></o>
> 
> <o></o>
> 
> I doubt any of this will change anyone's personal beliefs but I just wanted to get these thoughts out of my head and written somewhere.<o></o>



Your comments are welcome and appreciated. I admire your openmindedness, tempered with your willingness to investigate. When you are searching for God, you have to consider all alternatives.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine and others, keep seeking. 





> *Luke 11:5-13*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25411">5</sup>Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25412">6</sup>for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25413">7</sup>and from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.'
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25414">8</sup>"I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25415">9</sup>"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25416">10</sup>"For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25417">11</sup>"Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25418">12</sup>"Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25419">13</sup>"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> When you are searching for God, you have to consider all alternatives.




Depends on who you ask.  It was the "alternatives" that convinced me that there is no god.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> elaine and others, keep seeking.




I did.  I'm not going to waste any more of my life on something that isn't there.  Still, none of you can tell me why you were enlightened and I wasn't.  Why would I think it's anything other than ?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> No. I've since learned too many things that would make it impossible to ever believe in a god again.


I pray that is not the case. Keep knocking. Keep seeking. He will reveal Himself.


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> No.  I've since learned too many things that would make it impossible to ever believe in a god again.



Impossible? The only impossibility is if you give up on God. Naturally, you won't find God if you aren't looking for Him. What is it you learned that brought you to this position?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> I did. I'm not going to waste any more of my life on something that isn't there. Still, none of you can tell me why you were enlightened and I wasn't. Why would I think it's anything other than ?


Timing?


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> Depends on who you ask.  It was the "alternatives" that convinced me that there is no god.




Hang in there Elaine... your heart is open or you wouldn't still be this far into the thread... that just leaves trust and fear in the way. The Lord knows you are afraid of getting hurt and knows that when you come back to him, it'll be a lot of trust on your part.  The Lord knows your heart better than you do.  Hang in there.


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> Impossible? The only impossibility is if you give up on God. Naturally, you won't find God if you aren't looking for Him. What is it you learned that brought you to this position?




If _I_ give up on god?  Have you read anything I've posted, or are you just repeating what you're used to hearing?

I'm not interested in rehashing things I've been posting of the forums for years, so you'll just have to take my word for it.  It shouldn't matter to you anyway, unless you want to be convinced there is no god.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> I did.  I'm not going to waste any more of my life on something that isn't there.  Still, none of you can tell me why you were enlightened and I wasn't.  Why would I think it's anything other than ?




I answered it the best I could...:shrug:  If you didn't feel a connectino all those years walking with the Lord, why did you keep doing it? was it a gradual falling out, an event(s), or just one day you said, that's it, I'm done with God??


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> Hang in there Elaine... your heart is open or you wouldn't still be this far into the thread... that just leaves trust and fear in the way. The Lord knows you are afraid of getting hurt and knows that when you come back to him, it'll be a lot of trust on your part.  The Lord knows your heart better than you do.  Hang in there.






You just don't get it, do you?


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Timing?



C'mon 2A.  You can do better than that.


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> I answered it the best I could...:shrug:  If you didn't feel a connectino all those years walking with the Lord, why did you keep doing it? was it a gradual falling out, an event(s), or just one day you said, that's it, I'm done with God??




It was gradual, and I kept doing it because it's what I believed.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> It was gradual, and I kept doing it because it's what I believed.




Well sometimes we have to do things unconditionally or without expectation. It seems that you expected that if you went to church several times a week and Bible study, etc... maybe you wanted something in return that wasn't a part of God's plan at the time.:shrug:  Maybe its a test like in the book of Job...  :shrug:


----------



## Tonio

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> We have been around this before.


I know. I maintain that it makes no sense that a "loving, forgiving God" would "destroy both body and soul in Hell." It makes no sense that a loving God would "punish Israel" because He felt rejected. That doesn't sound like God, that sounds like Stanley Kowalski.


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> Well sometimes we have to do things unconditionally or without expectation. It seems that you expected that if you went to church several times a week and Bible study, etc... maybe you wanted something in return that wasn't a part of God's plan at the time.:shrug:  Maybe its a test like in the book of Job...  :shrug:




The reason behind me doing all of that was so I could spread the word.  That's what I wanted in return.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> C'mon 2A. You can do better than that.


Won't argue or debate. Not the way to present the word of salvation. Tried it. Prayed about it. Know debate and argument is the wrong way.

   You are who you are; the sum of your experiences. I do not know you well enough or long enough to know when and how you lost your faith or even if you had true faith to begin with. I do agree with dems that if you were not actually seeking even unconsciously you would not bother to post or ask questions in this forum at all.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Tonio said:
			
		

> I know. I maintain that it makes no sense that a "loving, forgiving God" would "destroy both body and soul in Hell." It makes no sense that a loving God would "punish Israel" because He felt rejected. That doesn't sound like God, that sounds like Stanley Kowalski.


I maintain that I believe the Bible instead of you.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I do agree with dems that if you were not actually seeking even unconsciously you would not bother to post or ask questions in this forum at all.




Then I thank you both for telling me what I'm thinking.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Then I thank you both for telling me what I'm thinking.


You are welcome.


----------



## Tonio

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I maintain that I believe the Bible instead of you.


I don't expect you or anyone else to believe what I believe. I'm not out to win converts. I'm just stating my emotional experience of most Christian doctrine.


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> If _I_ give up on god?  Have you read anything I've posted, or are you just repeating what you're used to hearing?
> 
> I'm not interested in rehashing things I've been posting of the forums for years, so you'll just have to take my word for it.  It shouldn't matter to you anyway, unless you want to be convinced there is no god.



I haven't been on this board for that very long, so I don't know your situation, so I will take your word for it. I don't think you can convince me that there is no God. But it does matter to me. You matter to me. Anyone who has a hard time with getting to know God matters to me. I spent years not knowing. I've probably been where you are in that regard.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> The reason behind me doing all of that was so I could spread the word. That's what I wanted in return.


It worked! We get to post scripture in response to your posts. You are helping to spread the word.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> It worked! We get to post scripture in response to your posts. You are helping to spread the word.




As usual, you misunderstood me.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> The reason behind me doing all of that was so I could spread the word.  That's what I wanted in return.




Well you still can.... do you realize how many people's lives you touch on these forums?  Sometimes we are brought down so that we can be built up.  Folks see you and your hardened beliefs on here, maybe this is the Lords way of using you... to testify to soo many of the unbeliver forumites out there...kind of like another analogy... where man is trying to get a bunch of sparrows into the barn before a snow storm but the sparrows were afraid of this man, it was 100 times their size... he then asked the lord to turn himself into a sparrow himself so that other's may follow him into the barn and stay warm and alive through the storm... Kind of like what Jesus is for us hardheaded folks...God came down in that form so that we could better understand and relate - and get this - kind of like you... nonbelievers in here can relate to you a heck of a lot better on Christiantity than me... maybe if one day you were to come back to the Lord's outstretched and loving arms that are waiting for you, it woudl be witness to soo many nonbelievers on the board.  In spreading the word of the Lord they'd much easier relate to you - a no -nonsense speak from the hip lady... on this issue as you have been in their shoes - maybe the Lord felt you would be able to reach more people in spreading the word if you were down in the ditches with them for a period of time and understand their thinking, etc..
Things happen for a reason, although we may not know the reasoning... they do.


----------



## Nickel

Tonio said:
			
		

> Stanley Kowalski.


Now I want to watch "A Streetcar Named Desire" but I don't have time.


----------



## vraiblonde

*Pick on Elaine Day!*



			
				elaine said:
			
		

> No. I've since learned too many things that would make it impossible to ever believe in a god again.


I think that you're not comfortable with your lack of religion.  The reason I think this is because you spend a lot of time debunking Christianity and Christians in general.  If you were at peace with your decision, you wouldn't feel the need to sneer at people who DO believe - it would be no sweat off your back and you wouldn't spend one second of your life mocking them.

I also think you're looking for people like 2A, Homesick and Railroad to convince you there's a reason to believe.  But the fact is that they don't have all the answers you're looking for - God is a matter of faith and no one else can give you faith, you have to develop it for yourself.  They can tell you why THEY believe, but they cannot tell you why YOU should believe in a manner that will satisfy you.

You don't have to buy the whole God/Jesus/miracles gig hook line and sinker.  You can embrace the spirituality of Christianity and the peace you will find from the introspection and letting go that a Higher Power provides without believing in ghosts and boogeymen.  You can believe in your own way and follow your own path to righteousness - not 2A's path, or RR's path, or even my path.


----------



## Dondi

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I think that you're not comfortable with your lack of religion.  The reason I think this is because you spend a lot of time debunking Christianity and Christians in general.  If you were at peace with your decision, you wouldn't feel the need to sneer at people who DO believe - it would be no sweat off your back and you wouldn't spend one second of your life mocking them.
> 
> I also think you're looking for people like 2A, Homesick and Railroad to convince you there's a reason to believe.  But the fact is that they don't have all the answers you're looking for - God is a matter of faith and no one else can give you faith, you have to develop it for yourself.  They can tell you why THEY believe, but they cannot tell you why YOU should believe in a manner that will satisfy you.
> 
> You don't have to buy the whole God/Jesus/miracles gig hook line and sinker.  You can embrace the spirituality of Christianity and the peace you will find from the introspection and letting go that a Higher Power provides without believing in ghosts and boogeymen.  You can believe in your own way and follow your own path to righteousness - not 2A's path, or RR's path, or even my path.



That's actually pretty good, vrailblonde.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Tonio said:
			
		

> I don't expect you or anyone else to believe what I believe. I'm not out to win converts. I'm just stating my emotional experience of most Christian doctrine.


My point is I don't rely on human wisdom for spiritual things, because humans are not wise in a spiritual sense. Things of the spirit are not perceived through human means but through the Spirit. You appear to rely on your own wisdom. I recognize that while being intelligent in science and other things of the world, I am not wise in spirit, so I depend on the wisdom of God's word.

   Don't worry. You won't convert me. But I submit that you must be looking for reinforcement of your own ideas or converts or you would not be refuting with your posts what is posted by those that are followers of Christ.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I think that you're not comfortable with your lack of religion.  The reason I think this is because you spend a lot of time debunking Christianity and Christians in general.  If you were at peace with your decision, you wouldn't feel the need to sneer at people who DO believe - it would be no sweat off your back and you wouldn't spend one second of your life mocking them.
> 
> I also think you're looking for people like 2A, Homesick and Railroad to convince you there's a reason to believe.  But the fact is that they don't have all the answers you're looking for - God is a matter of faith and no one else can give you faith, you have to develop it for yourself.  They can tell you why THEY believe, but they cannot tell you why YOU should believe in a manner that will satisfy you.
> 
> You don't have to buy the whole God/Jesus/miracles gig hook line and sinker.  You can embrace the spirituality of Christianity and the peace you will find from the introspection and letting go that a Higher Power provides without believing in ghosts and boogeymen.  You can believe in your own way and follow your own path to righteousness - not 2A's path, or RR's path, or even my path.



No, you're wrong.  You're right about a lot of things, but you're wrong about this.

I'm not trying to get anyone to convince me of anything.  I'm trying to get an explanation for their unwavering faith.  That's what I'm trying to understand.  I reworded my question numerous times, and still everyone wants to turn it into something that it's not.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> As usual, you misunderstood me.


I didn't misunderstand you. I just pointed out a different perspective to the situation.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> No, you're wrong.  You're right about a lot of things, but you're wrong about this.
> 
> I'm not trying to get anyone to convince me of anything.  I'm trying to get an explanation for their unwavering faith.  That's what I'm trying to understand.  I reworded my question numerous times, and still everyone wants to turn it into something that it's not.




I heard your question several times and did answer it the best I could from my personal experience, the Lord came to me, I don't know why me, but he did and I've grabbed ahold of my faith and never let go.... :shrug:
http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=1061022&postcount=272


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> No, you're wrong.  You're right about a lot of things, but you're wrong about this.
> 
> I'm not trying to get anyone to convince me of anything.  I'm trying to get an explanation for their unwavering faith.  That's what I'm trying to understand.  I reworded my question numerous times, and still everyone wants to turn it into something that it's not.



It's all about KNOWING God. You just know He's there. Knowing His Love. And I'm convinced of His Love. And elaine, if you truly want His Love, I'm convinced it can be yours. I wish I could give you what I feel and know. I pray that you will experience the Spirit of God in such a powerful way that you...just...know. Lord let it be.


----------



## dems4me

Dondi said:
			
		

> It's all about KNOWING God. You just know He's there. Knowing His Love. And I'm convinced of His Love. And elaine, if you truly want His Love, I'm convinced it can be yours. I wish I could give you what I feel and know. I pray that you will experience the Spirit of God in such a powerful way that you...just...know. Lord let it be.




You are correct, there's a huge difference in just acknowledging God and knowing of his existance than developing a personal relationship with Jesus.


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> I heard your question several times and did answer it the best I could from my personal experience, the Lord came to me, I don't know why me, but he did and I've grabbed ahold of my faith and never let go.... :shrug:
> http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=1061022&postcount=272






> and then one night during a particular traumatic events growing up, the Lord took me under his wing.
> I don't want to go into much detail, but neither of my parents were religious or churchgoing, etc... but the Lord found me



Okay, tell me...what did that feel like?  Did you experience something?  How do you know he came to you?  Was there a light?  Did a feeling of warmth wash over you?  Did you get an electrical charge?  What was the clincher?


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> It's all about KNOWING God. You just know He's there. Knowing His Love. And I'm convinced of His Love. And elaine, if you truly want His Love, I'm convinced it can be yours. I wish I could give you what I feel and know. I pray that you will experience the Spirit of God in such a powerful way that you...just...know. Lord let it be.




I don't want it.  Why is it so hard for any of you to understand that I just want to know WHY all of you do?


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> I'm trying to get an explanation for their unwavering faith.


There is no explanation for unwavering faith - it merely is.  It's completely and totally subjective and there is absolutely no concrete explanation that would make sense to someone who does not share that faith.

I said before that I am not a person of faith - there is literally nothing I believe that I can't have my mind changed about, given new information.  And I don't fully understand those who DO have faith in things that make no sense to me.  But I also don't feel the need to pick them apart and try to shake THEIR faith to bolster my own lack.


----------



## Tonio

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> But I submit that you must be looking for reinforcement of your own ideas or converts or you would not be refuting with your posts what is posted by those that are followers of Christ.


It might seem like I'm looking for that. But I respond to those posts because I want to vent. Too many people of all religions act like they are the ones to decide who should receive divine grace. That infuriates me on a very deep level.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> But I also don't feel the need to pick them apart and try to shake THEIR faith to bolster my own lack.




I'm not trying to shake their faith (at least not today), I'm trying to understand why they have it.  So stop making assumptions about what I'm doing.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> Okay, tell me...what did that feel like? Did you experience something? How do you know he came to you? Was there a light? Did a feeling of warmth wash over you? Did you get an electrical charge? What was the clincher?


You make it sound like she peed her pants


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> You make it sound like she peed her pants




I didn't say it, you did.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> So stop making assumptions about what I'm doing.


I will if I want 

I already told you that faith is completely subjective.  It's like love - why do you love someone?  Maybe because they're kind or funny or whatever - but there are millions of people with those same characteristics, and you don't love _them_.  Why love this particular person?  And if YOU love them, does that mean EVERYONE should?


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> I don't want it.  Why is it so hard for any of you to understand that I just want to know WHY all of you do?



Nothing is better in this world than knowing the Love of God. That God loves me. That eternity is in the here and now, despite the suffering and hardship we face in the world. The satisfaction that the next world is infinitely better than this world. That what we experience in God and do in this life has a direct bearing on our spiritual growth in the hereafter. Namely that the only real requirement from God is that we love God and love others as ourself. When we love God, we will know His love for us. It is reciprocated. This world will never get better unless we learn to  love one another, and I am joyfully learning this.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> Okay, tell me...what did that feel like?  Did you experience something?  How do you know he came to you?  Was there a light?  Did a feeling of warmth wash over you?  Did you get an electrical charge?  What was the clincher?




It's personal, and given that this is a pubic forum, I'll just leave it at that... it was a traumatically abusive night, I was literallly barely alive and the Lord came to me that night and picked me up and kept me alive thruogh the night - without the Lord's help, I wouldn't have made it.  I don't talk about it because nonbeilevers think its absurd or something, and to me thats something I know happened and generally I don't put up any past traumas up for discussion.  I know what happened and it made a lasting impact on me.

Later that week my older brother (15 mo. older) found a little cartoon book/phamplet in the gutter and showed it to me, it had a similary abusive story in it where the kid died and Jesus took him up in his arms and the boy cried tears of joy instead of being abused here on earth and lived happily ever after with the Lord.  I still have that 10 page cartoon book with me to this very day.

To me it was just confirmatino of what I had been feeling from that night where the Lord kept me alive and after that as I got older, I studied my Bible coloring books really hard as there were no bibles around the house and continued to build on my faith from that point on and reading Bible and Bible study books as I got older... I've seen hell at an early age, and clung to the Bible because I learned it offered something Satan doesn't... and that is HOPE.  As an adult I still have this unwavering faith, I know what I went through growing up and I know the one and only thing that helped me get out and out alive and that was GOD.  My friends in real life say I'm a miracle  but I didn't do anything, I just put my trust in the Lord and try to follow his will for me in life.

I can honestly say, I'm entirely endebted to the Lord for every blessing, gift and ever sorrow that I've experienced in life.

I'm not condeming you at all Elaine for your beliefs, I can totally understand why you beileve what you do, I'm just trying to share my story at the risk of being attacked by others on here so that I can better answer your question about God and how I know God is there sort of questions.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I will if I want
> 
> I already told you that faith is completely subjective.  It's like love - why do you love someone?  Maybe because they're kind or funny or whatever - but there are millions of people with those same characteristics, and you don't love _them_.  Why love this particular person?  And if YOU love them, does that mean EVERYONE should?




I agree that it's subjective.  But why?  Why do some people have it and others don't?  Again, is it the "I pee's all over myself" feeling, or "I was zapped with a bolt of lightening" feeling?  I hear people say they have the holy spirit.  What does that feel like?  How do they know?  What I'm understanding is that there is more than faith, it's something that they know and they seem to think they have a reason, other than the bible.


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> It's personal, and given that this is a pubic forum, I'll just leave it at that... it was a traumatically abusive night, I was literallly barely alive and the Lord came to me that night and picked me up and kept me alive thruogh the night - without the Lord's help, I wouldn't have made it.  I don't talk about it because nonbeilevers think its absurd or something, and to me thats something I know happened and generally I don't put up any past traumas up for discussion.  I know what happened and it made a lasting impact on me.
> 
> Later that week my older brother (15 mo. older) found a little cartoon book/phamplet in the gutter and showed it to me, it had a similary abusive story in it where the kid died and Jesus took him up in his arms and the boy cried tears of joy instead of being abused here on earth and lived happily ever after with the Lord.  I still have that 10 page cartoon book with me to this very day.
> 
> To me it was just confirmatino of what I had been feeling from that night where the Lord kept me alive and after that as I got older, I studied my Bible coloring books really hard as there were no bibles around the house and continued to build on my faith from that point on and reading Bible and Bible study books as I got older... I've seen hell at an early age, and clung to the Bible because I learned it offered something Satan doesn't... and that is HOPE.  As an adult I still have this unwavering faith, I know what I went through growing up and I know the one and only thing that helped me get out and that was GOD.  My friends in real life say I'm a miracle  but I didn't do anything, I just put my trust in the Lord and try to follow his will for me in life.
> 
> I can honestly say, I'm entirely endebted to the Lord for every blessing, gift and ever sorrow that I've experienced in life.



I wasn't asking you to share your personal bad experience.  I was asking you to share what happened after that, when the lord "came to you".


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> I agree that it's subjective.  But why?  Why do some people have it and others don't?  Again, is it the "I pee's all over myself" feeling, or "I was zapped with a bolt of lightening" feeling?  I hear people say they have the holy spirit.  What does that feel like?  How do they know?  What I'm understanding is that there is more than faith, it's something that they know and they seem to think they have a reason, other than the bible.



OK, here is what it's like. Do something for someone in a totally unselfish way, without expectation of anything in return.


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> Nothing is better in this world than knowing the Love of God. That God loves me. That eternity is in the here and now, despite the suffering and hardship we face in the world. The satisfaction that the next world is infinitely better than this world. That what we experience in God and do in this life has a direct bearing on our spiritual growth in the hereafter. Namely that the only real requirement from God is that we love God and love others as ourself. When we love God, we will know His love for us. It is reciprocated. This world will never get better unless we learn to  love one another, and I am joyfully learning this.



...and then you have those who "just know".

Thanks, Dondi.


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> OK, here is what it's like. Do something for someone in a totally unselfish way, without expectation of anything in return.



Are you having the same conversation as the rest of us?


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> I wasn't asking you to share your personal bad experience.  I was asking you to share what happened after that, when the lord "came to you".




I did answer how he came to me as best as I could on an online forum...

oh hell... I give up.... :throwsarmsupintheair:

He rang the doorbell and I went downstairs answered it, let him in and he grabbed a coke, a burger and some fries, and we just sat around shooting the breeze as showed me a tape on VHS of him documenting himself parting seas, etc... I smoked a ciggerette and said... thanks Lord, this is the sign I was looking for in the Bible


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> I did answer how he came to me as best as I could on an online forum...
> 
> oh hell... I give up.... :throwsarmsupintheair:
> 
> He rang the doorbell and I went downstairs answered it, let him in and he grabbed a coke, a burger and some fries, and we just sat around shooting the breeze as showed me a tape on VHS of him documenting himself parting seas, etc... I smoked a ciggerette and said... thanks Lord, this is the sign I was looking for in the Bible



That was funny, but you didn't answer how he came to you.


----------



## Nanny Pam

BuddyLee said:
			
		

> I think of that as a sort of great intuition. You cannot possibly prove it for sure but somehow you just know! I myself am at the crossroads, I love questioning things and learning both sides of the debate, that way I tend to learn more about the subject at hand. However, sometimes I will see something or feel something and question that! Some things are just too beautiful and some feelings are just too powerful sometimes for me not to believe there is a higher power. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
> <o></o>
> 
> Last year we had a Buddhist guest speaker in one of my philosophy classes. After class I asked him "Do you believe in God and if so why? Why do you believe in God if you have never perceived God before?” He answered with "A few years ago I was introduced to infrared. I could see many things with infrared that I could not with my own eyes without infrared. Who's to say we do not have the ability to see God? Some of us may very well have that ability but not in the technological sense."<o></o>
> 
> <o></o>
> Even in my own adventures in ghost hunting I myself will admit that just because you cannot see something doesn't mean it's not there. For instance, a blind man has a pencil put in front of him. The blind man cannot see the pencil but that does not exclude the fact that a pencil is still in front of him. <o></o>
> 
> <o></o>
> I doubt any of this will change anyone's personal beliefs but I just wanted to get these thoughts out of my head and written somewhere.<o></o>




Thank You, BL


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> No, you're wrong.  You're right about a lot of things, but you're wrong about this.
> 
> I'm not trying to get anyone to convince me of anything. I'm trying to get an explanation for their unwavering faith. That's what I'm trying to understand. I reworded my question numerous times, and still everyone wants to turn it into something that it's not.


How can one explain faith? You have it or you don't.

    I can give you a short "history of 2A".

 I grew up in a Christian home. The first song I ever remember singing was Jesus Loves Me. I began to question God and quite going to church when I went away to college. As I got more educated in science, I realized that science presented a lot more questions than answers and that science's answers kept changing. I also found that many of the most learned scientists believed in God. To that point, I had only read parts of the Bible that were presented in Sunday school or church service or confirmation class. I started reading the Bible at Geneses 1:1 and read all the way to Revelation 22:21. I found there were a lot more answers in the Bible and that they were consistent. 

 My life did not conform to God's way, but I kept reading. I kept praying. I started trying to make my life conform to God's way. I lost my first wife because she didn't like it because I no longer wanted to do some of the stuff we used to do that is against God's word. I was heart broken to lose my wife. I started going to a charismatic prayer group seeking to have them pray for the restoration of my marriage. I was prayed over to receive gifts of the Holy Spirit. I asked for the gift of prophesy because I felt "lead" that way and also for the gifts of tongues as a confirmation that I was given the gift of prophesy. The very next word out of my mouth was in a language I did not know. I was told by someone that heard me that it was Hebrew. I've never studied Hebrew. I have also noticed that the language changes from time to time. 

 I have also been given the gift of translation of tongues at times which kind of goes hand in hand with the gift of prophesy. Every prophesy I have ever been given to give has come true or been confirmed by other events. In the charismatic group, often the prophesies would start with one person and continue with others until it was finished with people stopping in mid sentence and someone else picking up with the very next word with no hesitation or loss of continuity of thought. One prophesy I was given to give took a year to come true, but it did. Another took a day. One recent one was a word of God given to me to give to the congregation of the church I go to. I took it to my minister before the service; he asked me to write it out. I already had and gave it to him. His son gave the message that day. After the message, the minister got up and read the word that had been given to me to the congregation. It was the same message that his son had just preached.

 This is a compact distillation of why I believe so fervently. I experience the power of the Holy Spirit first hand and it is totally consistent with the Bible.




> *Acts 2:16-21*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26966">16</sup>but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
> <sup id="en-NASB-26967">17</sup>'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
> 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
> AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
> AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
> AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
> <sup id="en-NASB-26968">18</sup>EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
> I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
> And they shall prophesy.
> <sup id="en-NASB-26969">19</sup>'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
> AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
> BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
> <sup id="en-NASB-26970">20</sup>'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
> AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
> BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
> <sup id="en-NASB-26971">21</sup>'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'


  Some of this scripture has and is being fulfilled and some is yet to be fulfilled.

   Anyway, you asked us why we believe. That is my story.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> That was funny, but you didn't answer how he came to you.



He came to me in the form of Jesus.


----------



## Kain99

My answer is simple.... I find it impossible not to believe in God when I stand at the edge of the Ocean or see a sunset or climb a mountain.  It's a real to me as it is fake to you.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Anyway, you asked us why we believe. That is my story.



Thank you.  That's what I've been trying to get at.  You have something that is somewhat tangible (although I find to be really out there).  That's the kind of answer I've been looking for all day.  Why is it so hard to answer that question?  

Dems, have you experienced something similiar?  Do you now see what I'm getting at?


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> I agree that it's subjective. But why?


There is no "why" with a subjective feeling.  What did you feel like when you fell in love with your husband?  When your daughter was born?

A long time ago, I felt like God "spoke" to me (this was when I embarked on my spiritual odyssey).  Here's the story:

I was always a non-believer, even as a kid.  During a particularly troubling period in my adult life, a friend suggested I talk to God and lay my troubles at His feet.  So I did, figuring she was doing okay so she must know what she's talking about.  I lay in bed and "talked" to God, telling Him all my troubles and woes and asking for guidance.  What I "felt" and got back was a sense of "what will be will be".  Like everything has a purpose and these troubles I was having were a precursor to growth and later fulfillment.  That I must go through these trying times in order to get to my happy destination.  But get through them I would, and with flying colors.

I thought about all the troubles in the world and how my pathetic little problems were completely insignificant compared to, say, someone whose little girl was abducted, raped and murdered or some mother in Ethiopia watching her children starve to death.

So how to describe the actual feeling?

It was a sense of resolution, of peace, of sureness, of purpose.  That's the best I can do.  The only "answer" that came to me was that this, too, shall pass and tomorrow's another day.  So it's not like "God" said, here's what you need to do.  It was more like, why are you worrying about something so stupid?  You should be thankful for all the blessings you have and not spend a lot of time worrying about what you _don't_ have.

Does that help?


----------



## dems4me

Elaine, I have to agree with Vria on a point... you do have a somewhat fixation on religion... whether it be spiratual or against - it still revovles around religion.  

I think you are a very humble person and maybe you want to know why God would want you to be a servant of His or how anyone of us knows, we all know in our own individual ways, but I think you know deep down in your heart what is the right choice for you on this.  And yes, the Lord would want little ol' Elaine sitting there at her desk, from Southern Maryland to be a servant too.  Sometimes all it takes is a leap of faith, I understand you've done this in the past but something is driving you towards religion whether it be for or against.  Pick up a Bible tonight, pray for an answer wholeheartedly and open it up, maybe you will hear and read the answer you are seeking.  It won't be a bolt of lightening, or anything like that, just something subtle that will let you know.  The Lord knows you better than you know yourself.


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Does that help?




Not really.


----------



## mAlice

dems4me said:
			
		

> Elaine, I have to agree with Vria on a point... you do have a somewhat fixation on religion... whether it be spiratual or against - it still revovles around religion.



Try not to read too much into my questions, dems.  It's simply a fascination, not unlike my fascination with RF or road kill.


----------



## Dondi

Originally Posted by Dondi said:
			
		

> OK, here is what it's like. Do something for someone in a totally unselfish way, without expectation of anything in return.





			
				elaine said:
			
		

> Are you having the same conversation as the rest of us?



This is what uncondition love is. This is how you develop an unconditional love for people. And by unconditionally loving people, you are in essence loving God. This is how God wants us to love. All I'm suggesting is that you do this and see.


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> Not really.


Well, you asked what it felt like, and I told you what it felt like for me.  What more do you want?  :shrug:


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Well, you asked what it felt like, and I told you what it felt like for me.  What more do you want?  :shrug:



  And I appreciate your input, but it still didn't help.  :shrug:  What can I say?

2A's response was excellent.  It's what I was looking for.    Finally.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> There is no "why" with a subjective feeling. What did you feel like when you fell in love with your husband? When your daughter was born?
> 
> A long time ago, I felt like God "spoke" to me (this was when I embarked on my spiritual odyssey).  Here's the story:
> 
> I was always a non-believer, even as a kid. During a particularly troubling period in my adult life, a friend suggested I talk to God and lay my troubles at His feet. So I did, figuring she was doing okay so she must know what she's talking about. I lay in bed and "talked" to God, telling Him all my troubles and woes and asking for guidance. What I "felt" and got back was a sense of "what will be will be". Like everything has a purpose and these troubles I was having were a precursor to growth and later fulfillment. That I must go through these trying times in order to get to my happy destination. But get through them I would, and with flying colors.
> 
> I thought about all the troubles in the world and how my pathetic little problems were completely insignificant compared to, say, someone whose little girl was abducted, raped and murdered or some mother in Ethiopia watching her children starve to death.
> 
> So how to describe the actual feeling?
> 
> It was a sense of resolution, of peace, of sureness, of purpose. That's the best I can do. The only "answer" that came to me was that this, too, shall pass and tomorrow's another day. So it's not like "God" said, here's what you need to do. It was more like, why are you worrying about something so stupid? You should be thankful for all the blessings you have and not spend a lot of time worrying about what you _don't_ have.
> 
> Does that help?


 Wow. And you still say you are an agnostic.  You have experienced the "peace that surpasses all understanding" which is given by God and don't acknowledge the source. Love you. I know you will "get there".

   One thing I would point out is that God is concerned even about the "little things" in our life. 





> *Luke 12:4-9*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25464">4</sup>"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25465">5</sup>"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
> 
> *  <sup id="en-NASB-25466">6</sup>"Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. *
> 
> *   <sup id="en-NASB-25467">7</sup>"Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25468">8</sup>"And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-25469">9</sup>but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.


----------



## Dondi

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wow. And you still say you are an agnostic.  You have experienced the "peace that surpasses all understanding" which is given by God and don't acknowledge the source. Love you. I know you will "get there".
> 
> One thing I would point out is that God is concerned even about the "little things" in our life.



Good point, 2A! God is in the little things. You don't have to look for big miracles and lightning bolts. just doing what God wants us to do (i.e love one another) could be a simple as giving some food to a neighbor in need.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wow. And you still say you are an agnostic.  You have experienced the "peace that surpasses all understanding"




Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  AND ...now that we've finally answered my question...these are the things that I have never felt or experienced.   Nothing even remotely similiar.


----------



## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> Thank you.  That's what I've been trying to get at.  You have something that is somewhat tangible (although I find to be really out there).  That's the kind of answer I've been looking for all day.  Why is it so hard to answer that question?
> 
> Dems, have you experienced something similiar?  Do you now see what I'm getting at?




Yes and yes but mine is not as much "out there" as 2As.  Although 2A and I are both very much Christian we tend to disagree on the minor points... I personally don't believe that speaking in tongues is the ONLY edification for proof of having received the holy spirit and do not belong to a chrismatic denomination, although we all have spiratual gifts, I'm leary about the speaking in tongues stuff in terms of it being the ONLY edification.  As I am other open to other christmatic gifts being proof.  As for speaking in tongues for example, some friends of mine invited me to attend their church and at the beginning they all sounded like this...   except they were saying luu luuu luuussss  really loud so that Satan wouldn't hear their prayers in the beginning of the service - all that did was repel me somewhat as it did some others that were there... and sadly the kids just looked at the parents as if they were nuts... I kind of frown on anything that would repel, scare or deter someone from being a Christian such as what I saw that day.
Although 2A and I and others are brothers and sisters in Christ, 2A and I realize it is splitting hairs to disagree about things like that because we will both probably argue untill we are blue in the face.  It doesn't make him right or me right, it just means we believe slightly different in the Christian faith, but nonetheless its still within the Christian faith.

I've met 2A in person and he's a wonderful person and we don't argue and debate.  But as a testimony to faith... he was upset at losing his wife, but God doesn't close one door without opening another that is more better.  Look at the wonderful wife he has in Sharon now.


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> Good point, 2A! God is in the little things. You don't have to look for big miracles and lightning bolts. just doing what God wants us to do (i.e love one another) could be a simple as giving some food to a neighbor in need.




You're just getting on my nerves.  If you love me you'll stop posting.  You make it sound like the only people who do good things are those who go to church on Sunday.


----------



## vraiblonde

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wow. And you still say you are an agnostic.  You have experienced the "peace that surpasses all understanding" which is given by God and don't acknowledge the source. Love you. I know you will "get there".
> 
> One thing I would point out is that God is concerned even about the "little things" in our life.


I don't say I'm an agnostic - I say I'm an atheist.  I don't believe that "God" gave me that wisdom, I believe that it was always there and I just needed to sit down and think about it and put it into perspective.

I haven't felt one single nagging since I decided that there was no God.  No subconcious guilt or anything.  I would think that if God was upset that I left the fold, He'd pester me about it.  But He hasn't, so the only conclusion I can come to is that either there IS no God, or He's feeling okay about where I'm at in my life.

I hope with all my heart that, if there IS a God, He has better things to concern Himself with rather than my ability to pay my rent and my son's dismal grades in school.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> ... I personally don't believe that speaking in tongues is the ONLY edification for proof of having received the holy spirit and do not belong to a chrismatic denomination, although we all have spiratual gifts, I'm leary about the speaking in tongues stuff in terms of it being the ONLY edification.


Nor do I. Some people do just as some people you have to handle poisonous snakes to prove your faith. Those are distortions of the Truth; fixation of a verse instead to the whole of scripture.





			
				dems4me said:
			
		

> I've met 2A in person and he's a wonderful person and we don't argue and debate. But as a testimony to faith... he was upset at losing his wife, but God doesn't close one door without opening another that is more better. Look at the wonderful wife he has in Sharon now.


I am absolutely blessed with Sharon and much more. An interesting twist to God and His ways is that I established a friendship with my ex wife after we were divorced and she introduced Sharon and I.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I don't say I'm an agnostic - I say I'm an atheist. I don't believe that "God" gave me that wisdom, I believe that it was always there and I just needed to sit down and think about it and put it into perspective.
> 
> I haven't felt one single nagging since I decided that there was no God. No subconcious guilt or anything. I would think that if God was upset that I left the fold, He'd pester me about it. But He hasn't, so the only conclusion I can come to is that either there IS no God, or He's feeling okay about where I'm at in my life.
> 
> I hope with all my heart that, if there IS a God, He has better things to concern Himself with rather than my ability to pay my rent and my son's dismal grades in school.


Consider yourself pestered.


----------



## virgovictoria

elaine said:
			
		

> You're just getting on my nerves.  If you love me you'll stop posting.  You make it sound like the only people who do good things are those who go to church on Sunday.



That's the nicest send off that I've read from you so far!


----------



## mAlice

virgovictoria said:
			
		

> That's the nicest send off that I've read from you so far!


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Nor do I. Some people do just as some people you have to handle poisonous snakes to prove your faith. Those are distortions of the Truth; fixation of a verse instead to the whole of scripture.I am absolutely blessed with Sharon and much more. An interesting twist to God and His ways is that I established a friendship with my ex wife after we were divorced and she introduced Sharon and I.




AWESOME!!!!


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> You're just getting on my nerves.  If you love me you'll stop posting.  You make it sound like the only people who do good things are those who go to church on Sunday.



I've meant nothing of the kind. In fact, I haven't even mentioned church. What I have been talking about is loving others unconditionally. this is something that can be done by anyone. In fact, I haven't gone to church in over a year. The reason is that I found that in church I was doing things by compulsion rather than a genuine love for others. I felt I was playing church, not living how what God really wants me to live.  I got away from that for a while and am learning how to express love to others in a real manner. I posted earlier that undercurrents of God can be found most religions. I don't condemn anyone. i belib=ve anyone who is truly seeking God, wherever they are, whatever religion they are, will find Him. I'm sorry if I unnerved you, but I truly care for you.


----------



## mAlice

Dondi said:
			
		

> I've meant nothing of the kind. In fact, I haven't even mentioned church. What I have been talking about is loving others unconditionally. this is something that can be done by anyone. In fact, I haven't gone to church in over a year. The reason is that I found that in church I was doing things by compulsion rather than a genuine love for others. I felt I was playing church, not living how what God really wants me to live.  I got away from that for a while and am learning how to express love to others in a real manner. I posted earlier that undercurrents of God can be found most religions. I don't condemn anyone. i belib=ve anyone who is truly seeking God, wherever they are, whatever religion they are, will find Him. I'm sorry if I unnerved you, but I truly care for you.




Good for you.  Get back to me when you're on the same page as the rest of us.


----------



## vraiblonde

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Consider yourself pestered.


I don't feel pestered - I feel great!  Life is good and even though I'm having a personal issue that you already know about, I feel confident that it will be resolved.  And if it's not resolved the way I'd like it to be, I feel at peace with whatever does happen.


----------



## dems4me

Dondi said:
			
		

> . i belib=ve anyone QUOTE]
> 
> 
> i belib too!!!


----------



## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> Good for you. Get back to me when you're on the same page as the rest of us.


See, this is why you don't feel the peace that others feel - BECAUSE YOU'RE MEAN!!!


----------



## Dondi

elaine said:
			
		

> Good for you.  Get back to me when you're on the same page as the rest of us.



OK, I'll stop posting for now. Maybe I'm trying too hard. But I'm still praying for you. Bye all


----------



## dems4me

Dondi said:
			
		

> OK, I'll stop posting for now. Maybe I'm trying too hard. But I'm still praying for you. Bye all




don't stop now... you only have 8 more posts before you can get your power points :shrug:


----------



## vraiblonde

Dondi said:
			
		

> OK, I'll stop posting for now. Maybe I'm trying too hard. But I'm still praying for you. Bye all


Don't listen to her   She's just trying to alienate you so she can say, "See?  Christians don't practice what they preach!"

Thwart her evil plan!  Post your head off!  Tell her that God loves her (that really pisses her off )


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I don't feel pestered - I feel great! Life is good and even though I'm having a personal issue that you already know about, I feel confident that it will be resolved. And if it's not resolved the way I'd like it to be, I feel at peace with whatever does happen.


I mean by you being pestered is you are reading and participating in this thread. You are reading scripture and the witness of those that believe and recognize God in our lives therefore He is tapping on the window of your heart saying, "I am real and I waiting for you to let me in.".


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> See, this is why you don't feel the peace that others feel - BECAUSE YOU'RE MEAN!!!




Whatcha' mean?  This is the reason I AM at peace.  I'm not being mean, I'm being honest.  When dems is taking up too much air, I tell her, too.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I mean by you being pestered is you are reading and participating in this thread. You are reading scripture and the witness of those that believe and recognize God in our lives therefore He is tapping on the window of your heart saying, "I am real and I waiting for you to let me in.".




2A, THAT is such total


----------



## mAlice

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Don't listen to her   She's just trying to alienate you so she can say, "See?  Christians don't practice what they preach!"
> 
> Thwart her evil plan!  Post your head off!  Tell her that God loves her (that really pisses her off )




B!tch.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> 2A, THAT is such total


In your perspective but not mine. Even you are being nit picked by God. Every post of faith that is read by those that do not believe is a prick of the heart by God to say that He wants you to love Him. Every post of faith that is read by those that do believe is an affirmation of their own faith.


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## vraiblonde

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> He is tapping on the window of your heart saying, "I am real and I waiting for you to let me in.".


And Larry just tells me I smoke too much!   Wait til I tell him!

Joking aside, I enjoy the spiritual and human aspect of religion, not the actual "word of God" itself.  It was reading the Bible that made me an atheist.


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## vraiblonde

elaine said:
			
		

> B!tch.


It won't work.  I love you.  And God loves you.


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## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> And Larry just tells me I smoke too much!   Wait til I tell him!
> 
> Joking aside, I enjoy the spiritual and human aspect of religion, not the actual "word of God" itself. It was reading the Bible that made me an atheist.


The Bible flys in the face of human understanding. I tried to read it several times before I was really prepared to. I never got past the first couple of chapters of Genesis. My heart had to be prepared to accept what I read. I would read some stuff and have much of the same reaction you and Tonio have; God is capricious. How can He do that? Why? Then I prayed for His understanding and His wisdom to understand the Bible and, voila, it made sense.


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## dems4me

elaine said:
			
		

> When dems is taking up too much air, I tell her, too.




 Its rare I hear her tell me anything but that...


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## BuddyLee

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> It won't work. I love you. And God loves you.


I love you guys.


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## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Every post of faith that is read by those that do not believe is a prick of the heart by God to say that He wants you to love Him.




If that's the case, I should have bled to death by now.

So, if I keep reading Bram Stoker, will I become a vampire?


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## dustin

Ive been going to church ever since I can remember.

About 9 yrs old I told my parents that I thought God and Jesus were real (or along those lines) and wanted to get baptized (southern baptist). I don't remember any kind of sudden feeling, or physical relief, just that I knew he was real. In my head and my heart. There was no other explanation needed. And that he wanted me to be close to him. So thats what I did.

Ive been on a windy path since....but God and Jesus have always been there for me...through thick and thin.

I just never questioned why I believe. I just do.


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## Mikeinsmd

Hey all I'm going to drop out. Driving home today, I concluded that G.O. is correct that no one on this planet can answer.  I didn't just want to dissappear after so many inquiring posts.  Thanks to all who responded and thanks to Goofing Off, Vrai & 2A for attempting answer my question.


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## dems4me

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Hey all I'm going to drop out. Driving home today, I concluded that G.O. is correct that no one on this planet can answer.  I didn't just want to dissappear after so many inquiring posts.  Thanks to all who responded and thanks to Goofing Off, Vrai & 2A for attempting answer my question.




I tried to help tooo


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## vraiblonde

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The Bible flys in the face of human understanding.


If it was written _by_ humans _for_ humans, what sense does it make that they wouldn't understand it?  If God really wanted us to spread the Good News, He'd have made it easier for us to know what Good News we're actually spreading.

The one that always gets me is the story of David.  How he sent Uriah to death in battle so Uriah wouldn't find out that David had impregnated his wife.  Yet David was the exalted chosen patriarch and Uriah, the faithful and honorable warrior, merely died.  Even poor Nathan, who confronted David with his hypocrisy, didn't get any glory - he's merely a historian and a Biblical footnote.

The good die and the wicked flourish, and this is according to God's plan?  That stuff makes no sense to me from a spiritual standpoint and is just flat out wrong.

It sounds more like Bill Clinton, who lied, cheated and stole, yet is the exalted patriarch of the modern Democratic party, complete with the glory and revisionist history that comes with that honor, while good women and men were persecuted on his way up the ladder.

Do you believe that Bill Clinton is God's chosen son?  And if not, why not?  He parallels David.


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## Mikeinsmd

dems4me said:
			
		

> I tried to help tooo


Thanks Dems.  I didn't see where you took on my question directly.  The thread grew so fast I couldn't keep up at work and when I peeked in at home and saw God compared to a BMW (_good luck at your wedding Dustin_ ), I knew I wasn't going to read further....     Thanks again all!!


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## SmallTown

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Do you believe that Bill Clinton is God's chosen son? And if not, why not? He parallels David.


Suddenly Chasey's sig comes to mind 

_Staying in bed and screaming "Oh God!" does not constitute going to church_.


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## dustin

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Thanks Dems.  I didn't see where you took on my question directly.  The thread grew so fast I couldn't keep up at work and when I peeked in at home and saw God compared to a BMW (_good luck at your wedding Dustin_ ), I knew I wasn't going to read further....     Thanks again all!!


 I just over-do it sometimes don't I? 

BTW, thanks, August 6th is finally tomorrow!


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## vraiblonde

SmallTown said:
			
		

> _Staying in bed and screaming "Oh God!" does not constitute going to church_.


It did for King David :shrug:  And while he was visited with sorrow by his rotten children, he is a direct ancestor of Jesus.


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## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> If that's the case, I should have bled to death by now.
> 
> So, if I keep reading Bram Stoker, will I become a vampire?


Bram Stoker is not the Holy Spirit and has no power to change lives.


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## dems4me

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> It did for King David :shrug:  And while he was visited with sorrow by his rotten children, he is a direct ancestor of Jesus.




The Bible says that we are all sinners... he was no exception :shrug:


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## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> If it was written _by_ humans _for_ humans, what sense does it make that they wouldn't understand it? If God really wanted us to spread the Good News, He'd have made it easier for us to know what Good News we're actually spreading.
> 
> The one that always gets me is the story of David. How he sent Uriah to death in battle so Uriah wouldn't find out that David had impregnated his wife. Yet David was the exalted chosen patriarch and Uriah, the faithful and honorable warrior, merely died. Even poor Nathan, who confronted David with his hypocrisy, didn't get any glory - he's merely a historian and a Biblical footnote.
> 
> The good die and the wicked flourish, and this is according to God's plan? That stuff makes no sense to me from a spiritual standpoint and is just flat out wrong.
> 
> It sounds more like Bill Clinton, who lied, cheated and stole, yet is the exalted patriarch of the modern Democratic party, complete with the glory and revisionist history that comes with that honor, while good women and men were persecuted on his way up the ladder.
> 
> Do you believe that Bill Clinton is God's chosen son? And if not, why not? He parallels David.


The Bible was written by humans inspired by God. It is a collection of books that are meant to be apprised spiritually and not from the understanding of human wisdom.

  Don't you see that the account of David is a lesson for us? David was God's chosen man. He was blessed greatly by God. David started to rely on his own "greatness" and was tempted and succumbed to that temptation. He then repented and was blessed again.

   We all are chosen by God. He wants everyone to love and follow His ways. We are tempted to do things that are not God's way. We succumb to the temptation. We repent and accept Jesus as Savior and we are blessed. Very parallel.

   The accounts in the Bible show that God can and does use all kinds of people for His work. Moses was a murderer as was David. Rahab was a harlot. Lots daughters had sex with him (incest). God reckoned their belief and repentance as righteousness and forgave them and used them for His work. He provides salvation through His sacrifice as Jesus for _*all *_who accept Him.

  God loves us all and knows that we all succumb to temptation. He provides the way out - salvation. All we have to do is accept. The way is consistent from beginning to end.

  The Bible is full of accounts of those that have fallen away from God and then returned like the prodigal son. And God, like the most excellent father, accepted them, forgave them, and blessed them. The gist of the same story repeats from generation to generation down to us.


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## dems4me

Thanks for all the mental stimulation today and thought provoking questions... it made today go by quick and that's always good for a Friday.  Love all of y'all.  Have a safe and blessed weekend.


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## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> It did for King David :shrug: And while he was visited with sorrow by his rotten children, he is a direct ancestor of Jesus.


He is listed as a direct ancestor which I always thought was strange. You see the linage of Jesus which is listed in Matthew is the linage of Joseph, but Joseph was not the father of Jesus. Of course the linage of women was not kept for the most part, so the linage of Joseph was used to track back to Abraham. One of the interesting things about the linage of Jesus through Joseph is that almost all (except for the last few generations before Joseph - all the others had been kings, the linage had to get more common for Jesus to be born in a stable and be a carpenter) of the ancestors of Jesus are mentioned in the various books of the Old Testament. Also, the linage of Jesus is through the linage of David through Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah that David had killed. Now how could this be planned in the writing if Jesus was not born when each of the writers of the books that reference these ancestors wrote? But He did exist from the foundation of the world. 





> *John 17:23-25*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26783">23</sup>I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26784">24</sup>"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26785">25</sup>"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;


All of the Bible points to Jesus.


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## vraiblonde

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The accounts in the Bible show that God can and does use all kinds of people for His work. Moses was a murderer as was David. Rahab was a harlot. Lots daughters had sex with him (incest). God reckoned their belief and repentance as righteousness and forgave them and used them for His work. He provides salvation through His sacrifice as Jesus for _*all *_who accept Him.


Okay, but I still can't reconcile that in my mind and I don't have the faith to just accept it.  All those stories sound very human to me, not divine at all.  They sound like someone trying to make excuses as to how some rotten stinkpot can do so many heinous things, yet seem to flourish with riches and success:  because God said so, which is the answer to too many questions that heathens like me pose.

Again, I ask:  do you think Bill Clinton might be a chosen son of God?  Possibly the grandfather of the next Messiah?  If what you say is true, then Clinton could surely repent and become as big a religious rock star as David.  But I say that it doesn't make up for the ruined lives he left in his wake, any more than David's repentance made it right for Uriah.


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## 2ndAmendment

Oh. Psalm 51 was written by David seeking forgiveness from God for having Uriah killed and taking Bathsheba.




> *Psalm 51*
> 
> *A Contrite Sinner's Prayer for Pardon.<header>For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.</header>*
> 
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-14693">1</sup>Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
> According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14694">2</sup>Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
> And cleanse me from my sin.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14695">3</sup>For I know my transgressions,
> And my sin is ever before me.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14696">4</sup>Against You, You only, I have sinned
> And done what is evil in Your sight,
> So that You are justified when You speak
> And blameless when You judge.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14697">5</sup>Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
> And in sin my mother conceived me.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14698">6</sup>Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
> And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14699">7</sup>Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
> Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14700">8</sup>Make me to hear joy and gladness,
> Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14701">9</sup>Hide Your face from my sins
> And blot out all my iniquities.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14702">10</sup>Create in me a clean heart, O God,
> And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14703">11</sup>Do not cast me away from Your presence
> And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14704">12</sup>Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
> And sustain me with a willing spirit.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14705">13</sup>Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
> And sinners will be converted to You.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14706">14</sup>Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
> Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14707">15</sup>O Lord, open my lips,
> That my mouth may declare Your praise.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14708">16</sup>For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
> You are not pleased with burnt offering.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14709">17</sup>The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
> A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14710">18</sup>By Your favor do good to Zion;
> Build the walls of Jerusalem.
> <sup id="en-NASB-14711">19</sup>Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
> In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
> Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.


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## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Again, I ask: do you think Bill Clinton might be a chosen son of God? Possibly the grandfather of the next Messiah? If what you say is true, then Clinton could surely repent and become as big a religious rock star as David. But I say that it doesn't make up for the ruined lives he left in his wake, any more than David's repentance made it right for Uriah.


First there is only one Messiah; that is Jesus.

  As to Bill Clinton being chosen by God, as much as I dislike Clinton, yes. 





> *Romans 13*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28268">1</sup>Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


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## 2ndAmendment

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Okay, but I still can't reconcile that in my mind and I don't have the faith to just accept it. All those stories sound very human to me, not divine at all.


They are human stories not much different from anyone. Some are much worse than many of us. Most of us are not murderers, thank God. The Old Testament is a collection of books about people and their relationship with God. It is about what they did and what God did in response. What God said. What people did, either obeying or disobeying. What happened when they obeyed or didn't. The New Testament is the account of God's plan for us. The Bible is there for us on several levels. Many of the accounts can be read and understood at a human level. Much is better appraise at a spiritual level.


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## vraiblonde

vraiblonde said:


> I think that you're not comfortable with your lack of religion.  The reason I think this is because you spend a lot of time debunking Christianity and Christians in general.  If you were at peace with your decision, you wouldn't feel the need to sneer at people who DO believe - it would be no sweat off your back and you wouldn't spend one second of your life mocking them.
> 
> I also think you're looking for people like 2A, Homesick and Railroad to convince you there's a reason to believe.  But the fact is that they don't have all the answers you're looking for - God is a matter of faith and no one else can give you faith, you have to develop it for yourself.  They can tell you why THEY believe, but they cannot tell you why YOU should believe in a manner that will satisfy you.
> 
> You don't have to buy the whole God/Jesus/miracles gig hook line and sinker.  You can embrace the spirituality of Christianity and the peace you will find from the introspection and letting go that a Higher Power provides without believing in ghosts and boogeymen.  You can believe in your own way and follow your own path to righteousness - not 2A's path, or RR's path, or even my path.



Sometimes I am effing brilliant.


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## PJay

I miss reading 2A. Hope  alive and well.


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## GURPS

vraiblonde said:


> I think that you're not comfortable with your lack of religion.  The reason I think this is because you spend a lot of time debunking Christianity and Christians in general.  If you were at peace with your decision, you wouldn't feel the need to sneer at people who DO believe - it would be no sweat off your back and you wouldn't spend one second of your life mocking them.
> 
> I also think you're looking for people like 2A, Homesick and Railroad to convince you there's a reason to believe.  But the fact is that they don't have all the answers you're looking for - God is a matter of faith and no one else can give you faith, you have to develop it for yourself.  They can tell you why THEY believe, but they cannot tell you why YOU should believe in a manner that will satisfy you.
> 
> You don't have to buy the whole God/Jesus/miracles gig hook line and sinker.  You can embrace the spirituality of Christianity and the peace you will find from the introspection and letting go that a Higher Power provides without believing in ghosts and boogeymen.  You can believe in your own way and follow your own path to righteousness - not 2A's path, or RR's path, or even my path.







well said


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## Bann

vraiblonde said:


> Sometimes I am effing brilliant.





This tread was before my time, so I don't think I've ever seen it.  

Interestin' stuff!


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