# Pit bulls and your opinion



## krazd_kat

I'm curious after some heated conversations in the dog section about how others view these dogs and what their feelings/opinions are based on. 

Personal experience or has their opinion been shaped by the media.

As many rescue groups out there dedicated to this breed should say something, not too mention neither the ASPCA nor the HSUS believe in breed restrictions on these dogs.

"Dogfighting is severely cruel. Pit bulls are intensely loyal dogs and dogfighters exploit their positive characteristics to create violent animals," says John Goodwin, deputy manager of Animal Fighting Issues for The HSUS.


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## Baja28

Where's the:  _"I have read the CDC's facts naming this breed one of the most dangerous/deadly, the articles where the family pet who "wouldn't harm a flea" mauls a child and have concluded that they are harmful dogs and caution should be exercised when near them"_ option?


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## Cowgirl

Baja28 said:


> Where's the:  _"I have read the CDC's facts naming this breed one of the most dangerous/deadly, the articles where the family pet who "wouldn't harm a flea" mauls a child and have concluded that they are harmful dogs and caution should be exercised when near them"_ option?


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## Baja28

Cowgirl said:


>


Her poll is quite skewed.....


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## Cowgirl

Baja28 said:


> Her poll is quite skewed.....



Well, she did give quite a few options.


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## SoMDGirl42

I voted, but I would have preferred the choice

I've had a bad experience, it was probably owner related, I don't trust the breed, would never personally own one, but that's your choice to own one, just keep it away from me, my kids, and my animals.


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## toppick08

Love dogs........But I don't trust them.


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## CRoyal

krazd_kat said:


> I'm curious after some heated conversations in the dog section about how others view these dogs and what their feelings/opinions are based on.
> 
> Personal experience or has their opinion been shaped by the media.
> 
> As many rescue groups out there dedicated to this breed should say something, not too mention neither the ASPCA nor the HSUS believe in breed restrictions on these dogs.
> 
> "Dogfighting is severely cruel. Pit bulls are intensely loyal dogs and dogfighters exploit their positive characteristics to create violent animals," says John Goodwin, deputy manager of Animal Fighting Issues for The HSUS.



Pits are a strong breed of dog. I don't think just anyone can own them.. I will say that if you know what you are doing and you are a responsible owner a pit can make an awesome pet... 
A lot of people seem to own pits, rotties, and other 'strong' breeds as an image thing, which is awful. 

I don't breed discriminate but I do aknowledge that they are a powerful animal that can inflict more damage than your average dog if they are not properly trained and socialized.


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## Baja28

SoMDGirl42 said:


> I voted, but I would have preferred the choice
> 
> I've had a bad experience, it was probably owner related, I don't trust the breed, would never personally own one, but that's your choice to own one, just keep it away from me, my kids, and my animals.



That would have been a good choice too.


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## vraiblonde

Baja28 said:


> Her poll is quite skewed.....



Just a pinch


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## Baja28

vraiblonde said:


> Just a pinch


I've been quite vocal in older threads but I really didn't want to choose the option I did.  It was the closest I had to pick.  SoMDGirl42 post sums my feelings up but alas, not an option.


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## KWAK

Wish I could have voted for more than one option. . . .

I posted this before, in another forum, but I do have a very strong opinion about this breed so I will post it again.  Growing up I always had a pit bull for a pet - which was only 2 really because they lived a while.  Our first was a rescue - he had been abused and wouldn't have hurt a fly!  When he got luekemia and passed, we got another.  We got him as a puppy and he was sweet as could be.  He was disciplined, but never beaten or even yelled at in excess.  The dog favored me the most and slept in the bed with me.  

7 years after we got the dog, he snapped one day and attacked me.  Like they say pits do, he went for my neck - but I'm kinda tall so he got the upper, fatty area of my right breast (thank god they're big and my b@@b is still there and normal!) and my left forearm.  I had stitches inside and out in both areas.  This was after 7 years!  I will never trust another one again!  I, too, used to think it was all about the owner and not the breed.  Well - I was the owner and now I know better.


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## SoMDGirl42

Baja28 said:


> I've been quite vocal in older threads but I really didn't want to choose the option I did.  It was the closest I had to pick.  SoMDGirl42 post sums my feelings up but alas, not an option.



 I'd rather bring back Mikey to the forums than to have to deal with a pit bull


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## HouseCat

Baja28 said:


> Where's the:  _"I have read the CDC's facts naming this breed one of the most dangerous/deadly, the articles where the family pet who "wouldn't harm a flea" mauls a child and have concluded that they are harmful dogs and caution should be exercised when near them"_ option?



Hear that too often than not.


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## toppick08

I've had a Chessie(mean as Hell at times), and known people with Rotties, Dobermans, and German Sheps., that could in a sense, always be put in their place.  As long as you were the Alpha, and meant business.  But Pit bull terriers are NEVER to be be trusted. IMHO.


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## Baja28

SoMDGirl42 said:


> I'd rather bring back Mikey to the forums than to have to deal with a pit bull


Awwww.......... 



wait...


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## Bird Dog

toppick08 said:


> I've had a Chessie(mean as Hell at times), and known people with Rotties, Dobermans, and German Sheps., that could in a sense, always be put in their place.  As long as you were the Alpha, and meant business.  But Pit bull terriers are NEVER to be be trusted. IMHO.



I always love the comment "he/she wouldn't hurt a flea" right after their Pit Bull just ripped the face off a three year old.


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## krazd_kat

Baja28 said:


> Her poll is quite skewed.....



I tried to make quite a few choices, I figure if you don't want them anywhere near you, your home or family that you would vote for banning them.

Sorry, I didn't come up w/more


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## kelb

toppick08 said:


> I've had a Chessie(mean as Hell at times), and known people with Rotties, Dobermans, and German Sheps., that could in a sense, always be put in their place.  As long as you were the Alpha, and meant business.  But Pit bull terriers are NEVER to be be trusted. IMHO.



I had chessies too. One actually attacked me and almost ripped off my finger when I was younger.  I do believe its the way they are rasied for the most part. My dad wanted intruders to stay out so he trained this dog to be mean.. I wanted to play with him.. OOPS MY BAD! My friend had 2 pitts and they are sweet as pie... I love them but any dog can attack


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## toppick08

Baja28 said:


> Awwww..........
> 
> 
> 
> wait...





Come on Vrai...Bring em' back 1 more time...........


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## Baja28

krazd_kat said:


> I tried to make quite a few choices, I figure if you don't want them anywhere near you, your home or family that you would vote for banning them.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't come up w/more


S'ok..... It's the somd.com forums.  We're gonna express our opinions given a choice or not.


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## krazd_kat

kelb said:


> I had chessies too. One actually attacked me and almost ripped off my finger when I was younger.  I do believe its the way they are rasied for the most part. My dad wanted intruders to stay out so he trained this dog to be mean.. I wanted to play with him.. OOPS MY BAD! My friend had 2 pitts and they are sweet as pie... I love them but any dog can attack



I had a Chessie for a foster dog, my friends were scared to death of him and I didn't trust him at first.

Everyone is comfortable with all the pits and I have no misgivings about any of them.


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## toppick08

krazd_kat said:


> I had a Chessie for a foster dog, my friends were scared to death of him and I didn't trust him at first.
> 
> Everyone is comfortable with all the pits and I have no misgivings about any of them.



A Chessie, like a German Shep. dog, is a very protective, one owner dog.....But they can be humbled.........a pit bull is just too headstrong(breeding) in my opinion......


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## wharf rat

Never had a full adult pit before... only mixed ones. Definitely our most loyal dogs but also our biggest trouble makers. We keep them seperated from the other animals. It's just not worth the risk.


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## krazd_kat

toppick08 said:


> A Chessie,  is a very protective, one owner dog.....But they can be humbled.........



I found that out AFTER I brought him to my home, it definitely took me longer with him to come to an understanding.


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## mv_princess

wharf rat said:


> Never had a full adult pit before... only mixed ones. Definitely our most loyal dogs but also our biggest trouble makers. We keep them seperated from the other animals. It's just not worth the risk.


Really? 

Our trouble maker is the lab/shepard mix. That poor girl gets into everything and out of everything...of course she tries to blame it on the other one


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## MMDad

Baja28 said:


> I've been quite vocal in older threads but I really didn't want to choose the option I did.  It was the closest I had to pick.  SoMDGirl42 post sums my feelings up but alas, not an option.



I agree with that, but I voted ban them because it makes Pixie get all


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## dawn

As I have said in a prior thread 

I had a pit bull that I saved from fighting, she was six months old when I got her and I will swear she was the ultimate best dog you could ask for. I would have trusted her with my son from the day I brought him home from the hospital. She very easily could have turned on me as she WAS a fighter, her parents were fighters and her grandparents were fighters, so it was in her blood. She welcomed cats in to our home, she also welcomed another dog in to our home. She was seriously the best dog you could have. 

There isnt a rule about what dogs can and cant turn, all dogs are capable of biting.  It appears the media just likes to focus on certain types of dogs.  When we were growing up I remember, Doberman Pinchers were the bad dog, then it went to German Sheppards, then Rotties.  All dogs can turn, not any specific bread.    

I guess my dog could have turned because of how she was brought up for those six months, but as any dog that is abused, I would guess that could happen with any breed.  

I have had interactions with many types of dogs and when the time comes for us to get another dog, I would love to have another pit bull so my son can grow up with a great and loyal companion.


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## pixiegirl

MMDad said:


> I agree with that, but I voted ban them because it makes Pixie get all



Pixie has WAY calmed and stopped trying to change people's opinions.


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## wharf rat

mv_princess said:


> Really?
> 
> Our trouble maker is the lab/shepard mix. That poor girl gets into everything and out of everything...of course she tries to blame it on the other one



We have one of those too but he's more predictable than the pit mixes. With him it's obvious when he's agitated or ready to attack something. The pit mixes fly off the handle for no apparent reason and with no warning at all.


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## mv_princess

wharf rat said:


> We have one of those too but he's more predictable than the pit mixes. With him it's obvious when he's agitated or ready to attack something. The pit mixes fly off the handle for no apparent reason and with no warning at all.


Our shepard mix is our sneaky one. Probably more so because she knows it, and most of the time she gets away with it. 

I have more fear of our sheperd biting someone then I do our pit. Probably because the pit just lays there looking at you, like "duh bring yourself over here to pet me"


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## Baja28

dawn said:


> As I have said in a prior thread
> 
> I had a pit bull that I saved from fighting, she was six months old when I got her and I will swear she was the ultimate best dog you could ask for. I would have trusted her with my son from the day I brought him home from the hospital. She very easily could have turned on me as she WAS a fighter, her parents were fighters and her grandparents were fighters, so it was in her blood. She welcomed cats in to our home, she also welcomed another dog in to our home. She was seriously the best dog you could have.
> 
> There isnt a rule about what dogs can and cant turn, all dogs are capable of biting.  It appears the media just likes to focus on certain types of dogs.  When we were growing up I remember, Doberman Pinchers were the bad dog, then it went to German Sheppards, then Rotties.  All dogs can turn, not any specific bread.
> 
> I guess my dog could have turned because of how she was brought up for those six months, but as any dog that is abused, I would guess that could happen with any breed.
> 
> I have had interactions with many types of dogs and when the time comes for us to get another dog, I would love to have another pit bull so my son can grow up with a great and loyal companion.


Do the research.  Pitts & Rotties top the lists by a landslide for causing deaths over the last 20 years.  Don't blame the media (as much as I hate the MSM).  I don't remember Dobe's or sheppards getting a bad rap.  I hope your son stays safe and lives to tell about his companion.


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## cattitude

SHEPHERD...

GERMAN SHEPHERD.

Thank you.


p.s.  A good way to remember is that they are HERDING dogs.


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## mv_princess

cattitude said:


> SHEPHERD...
> 
> GERMAN SHEPHERD.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> p.s.  A good way to remember is that they are HERDING dogs.


Sorry Catt,

And she is an Aussie Shepherd.


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## cattitude

mv_princess said:


> Sorry Catt,
> 
> And she is an Aussie Shepherd.



  Just a pet peeve of mine.  I had shepherds for years!   German ones, even.


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## mv_princess

cattitude said:


> Just a pet peeve of mine.  I had shepherds for years!   German ones, even.


Is there a huge temperment difference between them? Or is it just size?


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## Cowgirl

cattitude said:


> Just a pet peeve of mine.


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## tommyjones

Baja28 said:


> Do the research.  Pitts & Rotties top the lists by a landslide for causing deaths over the last 20 years.  Don't blame the media (as much as I hate the MSM).  I don't remember Dobe's or sheppards getting a bad rap.  I hope your son stays safe and lives to tell about his companion.



please stop clouding this emotional issue with facts and data from a trusted source.


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## Baja28

cattitude said:


> Just a pet peeve of mine.  I had shepherds for years!   German ones, even.


I like Jerman Shepherds.


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## cattitude

mv_princess said:


> Is there a huge temperment difference between them? Or is it just size?



I wasn't talking about imported ones..just German Sheps opposed to Aussies.  I'm just being silly.


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## Cowgirl

cattitude said:


> I wasn't talking about imported ones..just German Sheps opposed to Aussies.  I'm just being silly.



At first I thought she was asking what the difference between Germans and Aussies were.


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## dawn

YouTube - Pit Bull




<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m2OC5Z1Fii8&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m2OC5Z1Fii8&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3naWRGz5OQU&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3naWRGz5OQU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a8VjpsIdv2U&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a8VjpsIdv2U&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

I could post a million you tube videos showing how wonderful these dogs actually are.


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## Baja28

dawn said:


> I could post a million you tube videos showing how wonderful these dogs actually are.


Shall we post video's of attacks too??

Wow!!  I just did a youtube search myself.  Seems there's many more attack videos than "wonderful" videos.


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## farmcats

I have had many breeds . The bad experiences with all ; came from people feeding raw meat or abuse .

I miss my pit  ( she died of old age). She came from fighters but not a bad bone in her body . We got her when she was older and I cringed at first with her and our goats but she never bothered them.


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## Cowgirl

farmcats said:


> I have had many breeds . The bad experiences with all ; came from *people feeding raw meat *or abuse .



 My friend is a dog trainer, and he feeds his pit and Am. Bulldog raw meat.  They're both very sweet, well-behaved dogs.


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## CRoyal

farmcats said:


> I have had many breeds . The bad experiences with all ; came from people feeding raw meat or abuse .
> 
> I miss my pit  ( she died of old age). She came from fighters but not a bad bone in her body . We got her when she was older and I cringed at first with her and our goats but she never bothered them.



Raw meat?! .. and how does that affect behavior??


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## tommyjones

CRoyal said:


> Raw meat?! .. and how does that affect behavior??



it doesn't, they just want to justify the behavior.

its great when you are dealing with a bunch of emotional folks with little to no practicle experience. Just like teenagers they know EVERYTHING


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## Ponytail

I think they are beautiful animals.  They are smart, loyal dogs.  I would own one, if I didn't have any other animals or kids in the house, and I'd never trust it around anyone else.

I'd treat the Pit the same way I'd treat a German Shephard or Rottie.  I love the dogs, but I'd treat them as such, and trust only the fact that it'd only take one time for them to be agitated to the point of snapping, to severely harm someone else.

These are dogs. There is not a single dog on the face of the earth that has gone through it's entire life without having made someone, at some point say "Why the hell did he/she do THAT?"  Could be anything from tearing up your shoe, crapping on the floor in front of a room full of guests, to maming another human or animal.  They are dogs.


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## dawn

Baja28 said:


> Shall we post video's of attacks too??




Of course, people are always so quick to post the bad instead of the good.


What my point is, the general public seems to form an opinion based upon only what they hear.  When I would take my dog out in public there were several people that would comment about how beautiful and good my dog was and when they asked what breed she was and I told them she was a pitbull most would then shy away.  So based upon what they were seeing face to face with her and finding out her breed people got afraid because of what they have heard and only because of what they heard, people wouldnt even give a pitbull a chance.   So maybe if people saw that these dogs have the ability to also be cosidered good dogs, it might help sway an opinoin the other way, I seriously doubt it, but it could.


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## tommyjones

dawn said:


> YouTube - Pit Bull
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m2OC5Z1Fii8&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m2OC5Z1Fii8&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
> 
> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3naWRGz5OQU&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3naWRGz5OQU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
> 
> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a8VjpsIdv2U&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a8VjpsIdv2U&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
> 
> I could post a million you tube videos showing how wonderful these dogs actually are.



in fairness, here are a few attack videos if you can stomach them

pit bull attack videos - Yahoo! Search Results


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## Baja28

dawn said:


> Of course, people are always so quick to post the bad instead of the good.
> 
> 
> What my point is, the general public seems to form an opinion *based upon only what they hear.*  When I would take my dog out in public there were several people that would comment about how beautiful and good my dog was and when they asked what breed she was and I told them she was a pitbull most would then shy away.  So based upon what they were seeing face to face with her and finding out her breed people got afraid because of what they have heard and only because of what they heard, people wouldnt even give a pitbull a chance.   So maybe if people saw that these dogs have the ability to also be cosidered good dogs, it might help sway an opinoin the other way, I seriously doubt it, but it could.


Are you suggesting that 20 years of study by the CDC is inaccurate or misleading?


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## tommyjones

Baja28 said:


> Are you suggesting that 20 years of study by the CDC is inaccurate or misleading?



no, she is suggesting that if a dog is really pretty it wont eat your baby


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## mAlice

Kill 'em all.  Let god sort 'em out.


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## tommyjones

mAlice said:


> Kill 'em all.  Let god sort 'em out.



i say we do that with the owners when the dogs attack.....

should sort out the problem in short order


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## Baja28

mAlice said:


> Kill 'em all.  Let god sort 'em out.


That's for muslims...


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## cattitude

Ponytail said:


> I think they are beautiful animals.  They are smart, loyal dogs.  I would own one, if I didn't have any other animals or kids in the house, and I'd never trust it around anyone else.
> 
> I'd treat the Pit the same way I'd treat a German Shephard or Rottie.  I love the dogs, but I'd treat them as such, and trust only the fact that it'd only take one time for them to be agitated to the point of snapping, to severely harm someone else.
> 
> These are dogs. There is not a single dog on the face of the earth that has gone through it's entire life without having made someone, at some point say "Why the hell did he/she do THAT?"  Could be anything from tearing up your shoe, crapping on the floor in front of a room full of guests, to maming another human or animal.  They are dogs.


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## Ponytail

dawn said:


> Of course, people are always so quick to post the bad instead of the good.
> 
> 
> What my point is, the general public seems to form an opinion based upon only what they hear.  When I would take my dog out in public there were several people that would comment about how beautiful and good my dog was and when they asked what breed she was and I told them she was a pitbull most would then shy away.  So based upon what they were seeing face to face with her and finding out her breed people got afraid because of what they have heard and only because of what they heard, people wouldnt even give a pitbull a chance.   So maybe if people saw that these dogs have the ability to also be cosidered good dogs, it might help sway an opinoin the other way, I seriously doubt it, but it could.



Most Pits are good dogs, until that one time when they are not.  Other dogs have bad incidents when they crap on the floor.  Pits have bad incidents by eating someone elses pet, child or even their owner.

Every Pit (pet) owner thinks that their dog could never hurt anything/anyone, until it does.   It is THAT owner mentality that makes other people nervous.  If Pit owners would keep it in their heads that their pits are every bit as likely to harm someone or something else, and treat it with that respect, then others would be comforted by the fact that you are a responsible owner and that there would be a smaller chance of that dog getting out of YOUR control and hurting someone else.

But for some reason, Pit owners like to give their Pits the same respect and freedom as old Ms Robinson gives her wiener dog, only because the Pit has been good, so far.


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## dawn

Baja28 said:


> Shall we post video's of attacks too??
> 
> Wow!!  I just did a youtube search myself.  Seems there's *many more attack videos than "wonderful" videos*.



If you actually look at the videos, people put smart azz titles on there for people like you.  

For instance This is titled
PIT BULL VICIOUSLY ATTACKS BABY

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vL1trl1FMUw&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vL1trl1FMUw&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


Pit Bull attacks 3 year old girl 

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L32q7qnDfes&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L32q7qnDfes&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

pitbull attacks and kills other dog 

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m7jg1R4f2QM&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m7jg1R4f2QM&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

pitbull attacks children 

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oHjao3zsWV0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oHjao3zsWV0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

5 pitbull attack 4 year old girl 

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8AxYBjF761Y&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8AxYBjF761Y&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


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## mAlice

Baja28 said:


> That's for muslims...



Same thing.


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## Beelzebaby666

:Any animal can be dangerous. 

I would never leave a small child alone with any animal, because you never know what will happen. I think chiuhuaha's are nasty aggressive little bite machines. :shrug:

Let's just ban every frickin' thing.

I'm gonna ban myself from reading anymore NHboy, Jpc, Green Hornet, Bluebird, Pinggerr, and ----renter threads.

:slam:


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## Baja28

dawn said:


> If you actually look at the videos, people put smart azz titles on there for people like you.


People like me huh?  You mean people with common sense who go by facts, not emotion?

Dawn, 

Do you REALLY think you can win here?  You can't.  Want me to post some real attack videos????  

For every "lovable" video you post, I can post 2 of a mauling.  Picture your son in one of those videos then come back to defend them.


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## toppick08

Beelzebaby666 said:


> :Any animal can be dangerous.
> 
> I would never leave a small child alone with any animal, because you never know what will happen. I think chiuhuaha's are nasty aggressive little bite machines. :shrug:
> 
> Let's just ban every frickin' thing.
> 
> I'm gonna ban myself from reading anymore NHboy, Jpc, Green Hornet, Bluebird, Pinggerr, and ----renter threads.
> 
> :slam:



Thank God I'm not included.......


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## tommyjones

Beelzebaby666 said:


> :Any animal can be dangerous.
> 
> I would never leave a small child alone with any animal, because you never know what will happen. I think chiuhuaha's are nasty aggressive little bite machines. :shrug:
> 
> Let's just ban every frickin' thing.
> 
> I'm gonna ban myself from reading anymore NHboy, Jpc, Green Hornet, Bluebird, Pinggerr, and ----renter threads.
> 
> :slam:



wow, a superretarded post......

i mean pits and chiuhuahas have exactly the same potential to kill you, right?


----------



## Baja28

Pit bulls and your... 02-25-2008 03:33 PM Many dogs are misrepresented, they aren't pits that attack but may look like one...so folks assume its a pit...but it wasn't...it was a cane corso, or mastiff, etc... 

 Pit bulls and your... 02-25-2008 03:22 PM ok there bud. We know you are a hater of all that is not white and american. List grows with pits i see 

Welp, here's what we're dealing with.... 

I dunno about you but I ALWAYS confuse a mastiff with a pitbull.... 


May your children live to see tomorrow.  If not, the gene pool is balanced.


----------



## mAlice

Baja28 said:


> Pit bulls and your... 02-25-2008 03:33 PM Many dogs are misrepresented, they aren't pits that attack but may look like one...so folks assume its a pit...but it wasn't...it was a cane corso, or mastiff, etc...



That one's from pixie.


----------



## Baja28

mAlice said:


> That one's from pixie.


May be but still a lame arguement.

Neither look like a pit....


----------



## mAlice

Baja28 said:


> May be but still a lame arguement.
> 
> Neither look like a pit....




It was just a guess.  That's what she always says.


----------



## Beelzebaby666

I have a greater fear of people than I do of any animal. you took my analogy too literally. That doesn't mean I'd have a pitbull around my kids. They are not a dog I personally would  choose to have sharing space with something smaller and weaker. Same reason why I wouldn't let my son in a stall with an unattended horse.

I have been around pits before, all were nice. I would not own one. 

The whining, bandwagon dipsticks probably have something better to b*tch about, that's all I'm saying. It's as worn out a topic as abortion and gun control.

MYOFB.
As for being superretarded, the bar was raised when you arrived on the boards.. :W:

Thanks for nothin'


----------



## Baja28

mAlice said:


> It was just a guess.  That's what she always says.


I know the Pixter loves her dogs and that's cool.  

I hate reading the stories when kids are attacked by the "harmless" family pitt who plays with ducks and kittens.


----------



## mAlice

Beelzebaby666 said:


> It's as worn out a topic as abortion and gun control.




Then stop reading it.


----------



## slik

Baja28 said:


> Are you suggesting that 20 years of study by the CDC is inaccurate or misleading?



YES - and here is the court papers stating so:
Punish the Deed, not the Breed!

 "Municipal Court Judge, Francis X. Gorman (7-8-2004 Toledo, OH) stated: “Obviously the ratio of dog bites per dog versus dog population seemingly would be relevant in this case. However, as pointed out by Dr. Peter Borchelt, the number of dog bites, “the numerator” as he calls it, is irrelevant without having exact statistics as to “the denominator”, the number of dogs in existence. Candidly, this court feels that much of this statistical information, as will be seen is irrelevant. Pit Bulls do not cause the most bites in the United States. Certainly the bites of mixed breed dogs far exceed those of the Pit Bull because there are many more mixed breed dogs than Pit Bulls. Moreover, even local statistics indicate that, for example, the Chow bites more frequently than the Pit Bull.”

Dog Bite Statistics compiles by Ms. Jade, TheDogPress Reporter


----------



## krazd_kat

wharf rat said:


> We have one of those too but he's more predictable than the pit mixes. With him it's obvious when he's agitated or ready to attack something. The pit mixes fly off the handle for no apparent reason and with no warning at all.



I have a chocolate lab as a foster and he has a few issues from his original owners, you have to control him - he is far more unpredictable than the pits I have, I can read their body language, but not his.

I would have more pits than labs to foster any day.


----------



## stlrnd4

mAlice said:


> Then stop reading it.



I like pits. But my feeling is it come back to breeding, that is why some of the dogs are bait for the more aggressive ones.


----------



## krazd_kat

Ponytail said:


> I think they are beautiful animals.  They are smart, loyal dogs.  I would own one, if I didn't have any other animals or kids in the house, and I'd never trust it around anyone else.
> 
> I'd treat the Pit the same way I'd treat a German Shephard or Rottie.  I love the dogs, but I'd treat them as such, and trust only the fact that it'd only take one time for them to be agitated to the point of snapping, to severely harm someone else.
> 
> These are dogs. There is not a single dog on the face of the earth that has gone through it's entire life without having made someone, at some point say "Why the hell did he/she do THAT?"  Could be anything from tearing up your shoe, crapping on the floor in front of a room full of guests, to maming another human or animal.  They are dogs.



Experienced pit people always say "never trust a pit not to fight".  My group of dogs that get along are never left alone, they are fine outside playing, but even then I keep my eyes and ears open as play can get too excited and just like kids on a playground, someone will get pissy.


----------



## slik

Baja28 said:


> I know the Pixter loves her dogs and that's cool.
> 
> I hate reading the stories when kids are attacked by the "harmless" family pitt who plays with ducks and kittens.



 What are you clssifying as pit bull ? Pit bull is not a specific breed. Rather, it is a kind of dog, a generic catchall like hound or retriever. The breeds most commonly referred to as pit bulls are the American Staffordshire terrier, which is the term used by the American Kennel Club, and the American pit bull terrier, the term used by the United Kennel Club.


 Sick of the pit bull stories ?
 BABY MAULED BY POMERANIAN DIES
BABY MAULED BY POMERANIAN DIES.(News) - Daily News (Los Angeles, CA) - HighBeam Research


----------



## krazd_kat

I have a serious question for my karma giver:

"All I have to see is the disfigured face and arm of a little boy who attends my son's school. He almost died from a pack attack (two pits and an english bulldog) who ventured onto his property and attacked him. Kill all the pits is my vote."​
I hate that thought, I honestly do, but what about the english bulldog?  If he was involved that dog is every bit as guilty as the pits were.


----------



## mAlice

slik said:


> What are you clssifying as pit bull ? Pit bull is not a specific breed. Rather, it is a kind of dog, a generic catchall like hound or retriever. The breeds most commonly referred to as pit bulls are the American Staffordshire terrier, which is the term used by the American Kennel Club, and the American pit bull terrier, the term used by the United Kennel Club.



That should pretty much take care of the argument "they aren't pits that attack but may look like one...so folks assume its a pit...but it wasn't...it was a cane corso, or mastiff, etc".

That would lead me to believe that any dog in this "catch all" should be cause for concern.

Your not helping, but I do agree, they all have pretty much the same temperament.


----------



## krazd_kat

mAlice said:


> That should pretty much take care of the argument "they aren't pits that attack but may look like one...so folks assume its a pit...but it wasn't...it was a cane corso, or mastiff, etc".
> 
> That would lead me to believe that any dog in this "catch all" should be cause for concern.
> 
> Your not helping, but I do agree, they all have pretty much the same temperament.



Pure and simple, strong breeds of dogs require RESPONSIBLE and strong owners.


----------



## mAlice

krazd_kat said:


> Pure and simple, strong breeds of dogs require RESPONSIBLE and strong owners.




Well, there's a hell of a shortage of those, now isn't there?


----------



## Beelzebaby666

Yap-yap!


----------



## SoMDGirl42

krazd_kat said:


> Pure and simple, strong breeds of dogs require RESPONSIBLE and strong owners.



What about the weak, the elderly, the children, the pets of these strong breed dogs with the strong owners that live next door to them? Should they live in one neighborhood that only has strong owners that live in them should they get out and decide to attack? and don't say it doesn't happen, I have pictures to prove it does! Want me to post them? They're very graphic. It's what my neighbors pit bull did to MY dog, in MY yard in the presences of MY children while I tried to beat the dog off and I was 6 months pregnant. The dog and the strong owner lived to see another day. If I ever see them in MY yard again, they won't be as lucky. 'nuff said. MY opinion. I love MOST dogs, not this particular breed.


----------



## Ponytail

SoMDGirl42 said:


> What about the weak, the elderly, the children, the pets of these strong breed dogs with the strong owners that live next door to them? Should they live in one neighborhood that only has strong owners that live in them should they get out and decide to attack? and don't say it doesn't happen, I have pictures to prove it does! Want me to post them? They're very graphic. It's what my neighbors pit bull did to MY dog, in MY yard in the presences of MY children while I tried to beat the dog off and I was 6 months pregnant. The dog and the strong owner lived to see another day. If I ever see them in MY yard again, they won't be as lucky. 'nuff said. MY opinion. I love MOST dogs, not this particular breed.



Where was the owner while you were beating his dog?  Doesn't sound like your neighbor was a very responsible owner.  I think you just proved the point that Krazd was making.


----------



## SoMDGirl42

Ponytail said:


> Where was the owner while you were beating his dog?  Doesn't sound like your neighbor was a very responsible owner.  I think you just proved the point that Krazd was making.



Owner was chasing dog across the street as it went charging out the front door. The owner was screaming at me to get a hose and spray it.  Owner was screaming for everyone in the neighborhood to help.


----------



## SoftballCrazy

Only one of these dogs is a pit...can you guess the right one?

http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_find_the_pitbull.pdf


----------



## SoftballCrazy

The answer...(I would've waited to post, but I've got to get out of here...)

http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_find_the_pitbull_key.pdf


----------



## mAlice

SoftballCrazy said:


> Only one of these dogs is a pit...can you guess the right one?
> 
> http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_find_the_pitbull.pdf




It doesn't matter.  They're all basically the same thing.  Aggressive and dangerous, regardless of how responsible the owner is.

So if it makes people sleep better at night to think it wasn't really a pit bull, then sleep better.  It doesn't change a thing.


----------



## CRoyal

mAlice said:


> It doesn't matter.  *They're all basically the same thing.*  Aggressive and dangerous, regardless of how responsible the owner is.
> 
> So if it makes people sleep better at night to think it wasn't really a pit bull, then sleep better.  It doesn't change a thing.



Prove that for me. 
Let's see the breed breakdown and how they're the same things.. 

Hardly the case and next to impossible to make a breed ban legislation on 'basically the same thing'.


----------



## mAlice

CRoyal said:


> Prove that for me.
> Let's see the breed breakdown and how they're the same things..
> 
> Hardly the case and next to impossible to make a breed ban legislation on 'basically the same thing'.




I don't have to prove anything.  If you like 'em, fine.  Just don't let one wander into my yard, 'cuz I can't tell one from the other.  So there.


----------



## Nanny Pam

toppick08 said:


> Love dogs........But I don't trust them.



  same here.


----------



## CRoyal

mAlice said:


> I don't have to prove anything.  If you like 'em, fine.  Just don't let one wander into my yard, 'cuz I can't tell one from the other.  So there.



Never said if I liked them one way or the other.. you and many others can't tell the diff was the point..
If no one can tell, how can we ban one breed over another?  

(lemme guess, just ban em' all??)


----------



## sux2b44

I love pits of all breeds. I think they are a beautiful dog and have a bad rap.  I was raised with the Marine Corp mascots and would sleep with them in my bed.  I know that it is not the dog that is causing the problems it is the demented people that own them.  I also think that anyone who would fight their animal to the death should also demise to the same.  Its cruel and sick to do this to any animal - roosters(cockfights) included.  It angers me to know people are buying, breeding and trainng these wonderful dogs for money.  It especially makes me sick to know that they buy them as training dogs for other dogs to fight better.  I think justice would be for the owner to get in the ring with them and fight for their life.


----------



## toppick08

sux2b44 said:


> I love pits of all breeds. I think they are a beautiful dog and have a bad rap.  I was raised with the Marine Corp mascots and would sleep with them in my bed.  I know that it is not the dog that is causing the problems it is the demented people that own them.  I also think that anyone who would fight their animal to the death should also demise to the same.  Its cruel and sick to do this to any animal - roosters(cockfights) included.  It angers me to know people are buying, breeding and trainng these wonderful dogs for money.  It especially makes me sick to know that they buy them as training dogs for other dogs to fight better.  I think justice would be for the owner to get in the ring with them and fight for their life.





What's yall's German Shep. girl's name ?


----------



## mAlice

CRoyal said:


> (lemme guess, just ban em' all??)



I never said anything about banning them.  I said kill them all and let god sort 'em out.


----------



## CRoyal

mAlice said:


> I never said anything about banning them.  I said kill them all and let god sort 'em out.



I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


----------



## Baja28

slik said:


> YES - and here is the court papers stating so:
> Punish the Deed, not the Breed!
> 
> Dog Bite Statistics compiles by Ms. Jade, TheDogPress Reporter


Sorry Slik, 
This isn't my first time to this rodeo.  If we were talking about just bites, I'd agree but we're talking dangerous dogs that maul and kill. Lets try non-biased sources....

Special Report
DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere



> *The dogs that are most responsible*
> According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:
> 
> If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.






> During 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people died of dog bite attacks (18 in 1997 and 9 in 1998). At least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in 238 human DBRF during the past 20 years. *Pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers were involved in more than half of these deaths.*
> 
> The breeds most often involved in fatal attacks are Rottweilers and Pit bulls.
> 
> *In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks.*
> 
> Rotties now top Pitts in fatal attacks but by a small margin.


I'm trying to convey that Pitts, although a very small percentage (1-3%) of dogs in the USA, are responsible for over 50% of the most vicious attacks. That's all.

The Pitt owners continue to defend and portray the dogs as friendly, harmless. and wrongly accused. Well maybe their dog is friendly and harmless but Pitts (and Rotties) as a whole are not and their bad reputation is justified. 








slik said:


> Sick of the pit bull stories ?
> BABY MAULED BY POMERANIAN DIES
> BABY MAULED BY POMERANIAN DIES.(News) - Daily News (Los Angeles, CA) - HighBeam Research


Very good!!    You found the *only* known recorded stories on death by Pomeranians!!


----------



## sux2b44

cattitude said:


> Just a pet peeve of mine.  I had shepherds for years!   German ones, even.




I have a German Shepherd . She is a pure bred.  She is one of the most gentlest animals I have seen.  I have a Chihuahua and a cat - they use her as their mom.  the cat will nead on her when she is tired and the Chi curls up with her for their afternoon naps.  My son and his friends use her as a pillow at night when watching t v.  Yes she will go into K9 mode when CLevalley isnt home and boy and I are.   But that is her job. She has never had trainng and everything she does is by instinct.  She has NEVER bitten anyone. Nor have we ever been worried she would.  And now she is going blind due to her age (11 yrs)  She is perfectly healthy and the vet laughs because she doesnt look her age.  With strangers, she is awesome - she will bark and smell you and then walk away - all dogs have an instinct to know whether you are a threat to their family or not.  I almost lost her today due to another dog attacking her.  Boy was walking her iand Chi in the woods behind our house and a dog came after him - she went after the dog and was cut.  She is cut inside of her leg and just missed her artery. She has a drain tube and sutures. She is home and resting but not doing to great as expected.  I am hoping its just the anesthetic wearing off.  If not, we are back up to the 24 hour vet in Waldorf.


----------



## sux2b44

toppick08 said:


> What's yall's German Shep. girl's name ?[/QUOTE
> 
> Tyra - Clevalley named her after Tyra Banks his next wife.


----------



## mAlice

OMG!  '





> Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes


  Those are two of the dogs we confuse with pits.  Say it ain't so!


----------



## toppick08

sux2b44 said:


> toppick08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's yall's German Shep. girl's name ?[/QUOTE
> 
> Tyra - Clevalley named her after Tyra Banks his next wife.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope Tyra gets well.  I love G.S. dogs........
Click to expand...


----------



## sux2b44

toppick08 said:


>



Tyra Banks is his fantasy woman - ha ha ha - I tell him to go for it - like he has a chance.


----------



## sux2b44

toppick08 said:


> sux2b44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hope Tyra gets well.  I love G.S. dogs........
> 
> 
> 
> Any time you want to meet her - just holla.
Click to expand...


----------



## toppick08

sux2b44 said:


> toppick08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any time you want to meet her - just holla.
Click to expand...


----------



## sux2b44

Dogs are like children - they learn from the environment they are raised.  If you are mean and beat them and show them no respect - you get what you get in return.  A nasty, non-caring dog just like an angry child that grows up to be a nasty non-caring adult.


----------



## clevalley

toppick08 said:


> Hope Tyra gets well.  I love G.S. dogs........



I hope so to!  Only animal I would sink $$$ into to fix!   Damn dog has cost me a small fortune!

BTW - Nice AV  



sux2b44 said:


> Any time you want to meet her - just holla.



Pics of T...


----------



## RoseRed

I don't trust them.  I was visiting a house recently and they had two.  One was kenneled and the other wasn't.  They put the other in the kennel at our request.  The smaller of the two (already kenneled) was one mean SOB and would have loved to have gotten a hold of us.  The other was HUGE and an absolutely sweet animal.  Lickmonster!  

I have also known some pits to be quite friendly and some quite mean.

Doesn't mean I want to have one for a pet.


----------



## toppick08

clevalley said:


> I hope so to!  Only animal I would sink $$$ into to fix!   Damn dog has cost me a small fortune!
> 
> BTW - Nice AV
> 
> 
> 
> Pics of T...



She's a Beauty !! x 10.



Hope you feel better.


----------



## Cowgirl

sux2b44 said:


> Dogs are like children - they learn from the environment they are raised.  If you are mean and beat them and show them no respect - you get what you get in return.  A nasty, non-caring dog just like an angry child that grows up to be a nasty non-caring adult.



I would like to think it's a simple as that.


----------



## Lusby_scrapper

All dogs have teeth and so that means they can bite.  How a dog behaves is how it is raised.  Dont condemn a breed becuase of bad owners.  I have trained pits, rotts and some are sweet and other have been nasty.  People need to know what kind of dog they are getting.  Please do research and ask breeders and other dog owners.  Do your homework, getting a dog is a big deciscion.
Ok off my soapbox, have a great day,
Need any dog training info please email me 
vabchdog@comcast.net


----------



## gumbo

There currently are 74.8 million dogs in the USA.

Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention.

Getting bitten by a dog is the seventh most frequent cause of visits to emergency rooms caused by activities common among children.
(#1 Falls #2 struck by or against objects #3 cut or pierced #4 natural or environmental #5 poisoning #6motor vehicle)


Every year 2,851 letter carriers are bitten. (US Postal Service.)

Number of fatal dog attacks. It is most accurate to say that the average number was 17 in the 1980s and 1990s, and that it has risen to 26 in this decade.

Over 50 percent of dog attacks occur on the dog owner’s property.

In Canine homicides and the dog bite epidemic: do not confuse them, it has been pointed out that the dog bite epidemic as a whole involves all dogs and all dog owners, not just the breeds most likely to kill. 

In all fairness, therefore, it must be noted that: 
Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner or handler most often is responsible for making a dog into something dangerous.

An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant .  
(Look at most of the trash thats attracted to and own Rotts and Pits) MICHELL VICK, DRUNKS, DRUG DEALERS,DRUG USERS,TRAILER TRASH, and those having an IQ in double digits.. You got to look tuff when your stupid.

Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, *even though its breed is considered to be potentially dangerous. *
A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack.

As I see it, a lot of the problem is in the breeding. 
It seems that everytime time a breed is in popular demand, retarded owners start inbreeding with out any regards to the breed.( gotta get the money)

I also know for a fact. That most of these reports of what kind of breed it was that attacked. Are done by the local animal controll that was called to the sceen.
These people are some low IQ idiots. Let me remind you that they are allowed to run around your neighborhood (full of children) with a loaded shotgun in pursuit of a dog.
These idiots shot my friends Great Dane and reported that it was a vicious pit bull on the prowl. (All because it had cropped ears.) Not only wasn't the dog a Pit Bull, but it was in it's own front yard with an underground shock fence and shock collar on.

I also had these same idiots run around my yard with shotguns while there were about 10 children playing in the yard. And I went the hell off on them.
Their sorry ass excuse was, We are in pursuit of a vicious pit bull!
Which ended up being our family dog and it didn't look anything like a Pit. 
The dog was a mutt, all black and had webbed toes. Two weeks later the dog got out again and the idiots shot it. Not even doing that right! 
They hit the dog in its hind quarters.

The police are not allowed to use shotguns un less there is a riot or the officer is out number with hostile people. They call this using excessive force.
But yet these bumbling idoits know as the animal controll unit, with no training are allowed to run our neighborhoods (with children at play) with shotguns.

All in all it is my opinion that a high percentage of Pit Bull attacks are not even Pit Bulls.


----------



## gumbo

Long before there were breeds of dogs like the Golden Retriever and German Shepherd, there were types of dogs named for the jobs they did. Retrievers fetched the hunters’ game and shepherds guarded the herds. As people became more interested in specialized types of dogs, they would breed to highlight the traits they were looking for. Slowly, individualized breeds were developed.

Pit bulls are descended from Mastiffs, Bulldogs, and Terriers. These dogs did not have a job like the shepherds. They were placed in a ring to fight bulls and were called Bull and Terriers. The ring was called a pit, and the dogs became known as pit bulls. When large protests resulted in banning bull baiting, the dogs were bred to fight each other. Breeders sought to create agile dogs, so bulldogs were bred with terriers and the pit bull as we know it was created.

*It is important to note that even though the dogs were bred to fight each other, aggression towards humans was not tolerated. Owners and handlers were able to reach in to the “pit” without harm. Any dog that showed human aggression was destroyed. These dogs were so loyal to their humans that they became known as the “nanny dog” because of their great temperament and affection toward children. *
During the early 1900’s the Pit Bull Terrier was the most respected dog in the United States! 

They were so highly regarded that they represented the United States in World War I on our war posters.  
They are also the only breed to have graced the cover of LIFE magazine three times. 
The first Pit Bull movie star was born, Petey of the Little Rascals. 
Sgt. Stubby, the first WWI Canine Hero who was a decorated soldier was also an American Pit Bull Terrier! 
President Roosevelt owned a Pit Bull Terrier and so did Helen Keller. 
Unfortunately, the Pit Bull terrier doesn’t receive the same respect they once did in America. There are many reasons for this: irresponsible ownership; back yard breeding (the breeding of dogs by unlicensed, inexperienced, or irresponsible people); media misrepresentation and stereotyping; and more.

Pit Bull is a common term used to describe a type of dog; there are actually three breeds that can be easily confused. The correct designations are:

The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) - Recognized by the American Dog Breeders Association and United Kennel Club 
 The American Staffordshire Terrier (AmStaff or AST) - Recognized by the American Kennel Club 
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT) - Recognized by the American Kennel Club and United Kennel Club 
They are essentially the same dogs but have been bred for a different purpose and/or size standard since the mid 1930's. How can we tell the difference? We can't really. We can only try to guess the breed based on some very subtle factors that may differentiate them. Note that even experts can't always tell if a Pit Bull is an APBT, AST or a SBT.


----------



## czygvtwkr

The easy way to do things is make the owner (and any owner) accountable for what their dog does.  If it bites a kid make it just the same as if the owner bit the kid and so on.  

Im sure that would fix most of the problems and wouldn't punish the ones that have such great dogs.  But I would wager that some people that say their dog would never hurt a fly would thing twice about everything.


----------



## mAlice

gumbo said:


> They are essentially the same dogs but have been bred for a different purpose and/or size standard since the mid 1930's. How can we tell the difference? We can't really. We can only try to guess the breed based on some very subtle factors that may differentiate them. Note that even experts can't always tell if a Pit Bull is an APBT, AST or a SBT.


----------



## gumbo

mAlice said:


>



WHAT?:shrug:



> Experts can't always tell if a Pit Bull is an APBT, AST or a SBT.



APBT is American Pit Bull Terrier
AST is American Staffordshire Terrier
SBT is Staffordshire Bull Terrier

United Kennel Club calls them APBT
American Kennel Club calls them AST
And some kennel club in England calls them SBT 
The reason no can tell the differance..... is there isn't any, their all the same dog. 
Pit Bull is a nick name.
I've had a pit that was registered both UKC and AKC. Same dog ones called it a Staff the other calls it a Pit.


----------



## mAlice

gumbo said:


> WHAT?:shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> APBT is American Pit Bull Terrier
> AST is American Staffordshire Terrier
> SBT is Staffordshire Bull Terrier
> 
> United Kennel Club calls them APBT
> American Kennel Club calls them AST
> And some kennel club in England calls them SBT
> The reason no can tell the differance..... is there isn't any, their all the same dog.
> *Pit Bull is a nick name*.
> I've had a pit that was registered both UKC and AKC. Same dog ones called it a Staff the other calls it a Pit.



Pit Bull lovers argue that you can't tell these dogs apart, and they are being falsely labeled.  I argue that they are all part of a group of aggressive dogs.  Someone told me to prove it and I declined...so, thank you.


----------



## ImnoMensa

There may be some owners out there who love their pit bulls for their strength and beauty,but there are way too many out there who buy them to intimidate other people with.
These people---cowardly bullies themselves---mistreat the dogs and turn the dog into a bully.

Personally I dont trust the breed. Too many stories of them ripping into kids or owners. I can have a 357 Magnum lying in my drawer and it will never go off unless the trigger is pulled. I dont like the idea of having a dangerous weapon lying around that could go off on its own. Especially when that weapon has a reputation for doing just that.


----------



## SoftballCrazy

clevalley said:


> I hope so to!  Only animal I would sink $$$ into to fix!   Damn dog has cost me a small fortune!
> 
> BTW - Nice AV
> 
> 
> 
> Pics of T...



Beautiful shepherd!  He's gorgeous.


----------



## slik

Baja28 said:


> Sorry Slik,
> This isn't my first time to this rodeo.  If we were talking about just bites, I'd agree but we're talking dangerous dogs that maul and kill. Lets try *non-biased sources....*
> Special Report
> DOG BITE LAW - Statistics about dog bites in the USA and elsewhere
> 
> 
> Wait - what rodeo ? I didn't know we were talking about horses. I've been bitten by horses before - had a friend stomped on by one also. Heard of people becoming cripples from riding them ~  I say ban them all.
> 
> Your NON-BIASED source is hosted by Attorney Kenneth Phillips - who is he ?
> Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog.
> DOG BITE LAW - the most trusted and extensive resource for dog bite victims, parents of victims, and dog owners needing legal information.
> 
> I like a good debate, hopefully we can agree that maybe, if nothing else, we've learned something from the these posts.
> My intention is not to try and change your mind - we can agree to disagree on this point.
> I can only hope that any future involvement you may have with a "pit bull" will be a more positive one.


----------



## krazd_kat

mAlice said:


> Well, there's a hell of a shortage of those, now isn't there?



Yes there is, but BYBs still continue to breed these dogs and sell/give them to anyone that has the $$.

I will never believe an animal has to die just because of what it is.


----------



## tommyjones

sux2b44 said:


> Dogs are like children - they learn from the environment they are raised.  If you are mean and beat them and show them no respect - you get what you get in return.  A nasty, non-caring dog just like an angry child that grows up to be a nasty non-caring adult.



thats just retarded.

anybody have stereotypes of breeds that they have found to be true?

 jack russels tend to be yippie car chasing ankle biters

Labs love the water....

german shepherds are protective....

collies will herd your kids around the backyard jumping and bumbing you

beagles will run like crazy when you let them off the leash

bird dogs are hyper


all of these traits we find in other breeds and its OK to say "If you get a greyhound just know that it is gonna want to run".

So why is it wrong to say "pits were bred to fight, so understand that you have the potential for this thing to put the squeeze on a pet or unsuspecting person"?


----------



## mAlice

krazd_kat said:


> I will never believe an animal has to die just because of what it is.



Why not?  We sentence murderers to the electric chair.


----------



## krazd_kat

SoMDGirl42 said:


> It's what my neighbors pit bull did to MY dog, in MY yard in the presences of MY children while I tried to beat the dog off and I was 6 months pregnant. The dog and the *strong owner *lived to see another day. If I ever see them in MY yard again, they won't be as lucky. 'nuff said. MY opinion. I love MOST dogs, not this particular breed.



Obviously not a strong owner and there should have been something done after this happened.  There are laws and they need to be enforced.



Ponytail said:


> Where was the owner while you were beating his dog?  Doesn't sound like your neighbor was a very responsible owner.  I think you just proved the point that Krazd was making.



 thank you...



mAlice said:


> I don't have to prove anything.  ... Just don't let one wander into my yard, 'cuz I can't tell one from the other.  So there.



Because you can't prove anything, your opinions are based on media hype and maybe a bad experience, the entire breed population should not have to pay for that.



mAlice said:


> OMG!  '  Those are two of the dogs we confuse with pits.  Say it ain't so!



If you can confuse a Rottweiler with a pit, your opinions are obviously not very informed and really can't contribute to this conversation.



CRoyal said:


> Never said if I liked them one way or the other.. you and many others can't tell the diff was the point..
> If no one can tell, how can we ban one breed over another?



It's being proven in many cities and counties that breed bans do not work, unfortunately other cities and counties continue to try to enforce BSL.



sux2b44 said:


> ...*all dogs have an instinct to know whether you are a threat to their family or not.*  I almost lost her today due to another dog attacking her.  Boy was walking her iand Chi in the woods behind our house and a dog came after him - she went after the dog and was cut.  She is cut inside of her leg and just missed her artery. She has a drain tube and sutures. She is home and resting but not doing to great as expected.  I am hoping its just the anesthetic wearing off.  If not, we are back up to the 24 hour vet in Waldorf.



I am so sorry for your dog, hope everything heals up quickly!  Beautiful dog, thanks for the pictures!



sux2b44 said:


> Dogs are like children - they learn from the environment they are raised.  If you are mean and beat them and show them no respect - you get what you get in return.  A nasty, non-caring dog just like an angry child that grows up to be a nasty non-caring adult.



I do believe this, I also know that there are sometimes "OFF" dogs and they should be handled as such.



			
				RoseRed;2727553I have also known some pits to be quite friendly and some quite mean....Doesn't mean I want to have one for a pet.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Nothing at all wrong with this attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> Lusby_scrapper said:
> 
> 
> 
> All dogs have teeth and so that means they can bite.  .... People need to know what kind of dog they are getting.  Please do research and ask breeders and other dog owners.  Do your homework, getting a dog is a big deciscion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and unfortunately the BYBs will continue to sell to people that have no idea and are looking for a status symbol...
> 
> 
> 
> czygvtwkr said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The easy way to do things is make the owner (and any owner) accountable for what their dog does.  If it bites a kid make it just the same as if the owner bit the kid and so on. * ...Im sure that would fix most of the problems and wouldn't punish the ones that have such great dogs.  But I would wager that some people that say their dog would never hurt a fly would thing twice about everything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Punish the Deed not the Breed
> 
> 
> 
> ImnoMensa said:
> 
> 
> 
> There may be some owners out there who love their pit bulls for their strength and beauty,*but there are way too many out there who buy them to intimidate other people with.
> These people---cowardly bullies themselves---mistreat the dogs and turn the dog into a bully.*  Personally I dont trust the breed. Too many *stories *of them ripping into kids or owners. ...Especially when that weapon has a *reputation *for doing just that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At one time it was the German Shepherds and the Dobermans, then the Rottweilers, the pits are the same, good dogs, bad owners.  There are stories about everything, you have only to look.  When we see a young person with baggy pants and a hooded sweatshirt walking toward us at night, by reputation and stories, a woman alone is going to be nervous and cross to the other side or return to the store for security.
> 
> 
> 
> tommyjones said:
> 
> 
> 
> anybody have stereotypes of breeds that they have found to be true?... So why is it wrong to say "pits were bred to fight, so understand that you have the potential for this thing to put the squeeze on a pet or unsuspecting person"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are correct most stereotypes on dogs are true.  BUT the correct pit bull may be animal agressive, but NOT human agressive.  AND with training you can desensitize a pit to other animals where you can walk in public with him on a secure leash and not have to worry about him/her attacking.  The secret is KNOWING there is the possibility and regardless of the training you have put into the dog, you need to be on your toes.
> 
> 
> 
> mAlice said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?  We sentence murderers to the electric chair.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because in a court of law, those murderers were proven guilty, they were not sentenced just because they were born black, or they live on the wrong side of the tracks.  Too many people don't want to give these dogs that same benefit.
> 
> *Gumbo great posts!*
Click to expand...


----------



## tommyjones

krazd_kat said:


> You are correct *most stereotypes on dogs are true*.  BUT the _correct pit bull_ may be animal agressive, but NOT human agressive.  AND with training you can desensitize a pit to other animals where you can walk in public with him on a secure leash and not have to worry about him/her attacking.  The secret is KNOWING there is the possibility and regardless of the training you have put into the dog, you need to be on your toes.



so it is correct and in the breed for pits to be agressive.

thats all i am trying to say. you can qualify and defend all you want. the FACT is that they are agressive, and that because of their physiology (massive chomping power combined with thick neck muscles and skull that make it hard to regain control when they "go off") they present a greater danger than most other breed.

its not the training, its the breeding. you might be able to train away some of their tendencies, but they are who they are.......


----------



## BS Gal

sux2b44 said:


> I love pits of all breeds. I think they are a beautiful dog and have a bad rap.  I was raised with the Marine Corp mascots and would sleep with them in my bed.  I know that it is not the dog that is causing the problems it is the demented people that own them.  I also think that anyone who would fight their animal to the death should also demise to the same.  Its cruel and sick to do this to any animal - roosters(cockfights) included.  It angers me to know people are buying, breeding and trainng these wonderful dogs for money.  It especially makes me sick to know that they buy them as training dogs for other dogs to fight better.  I think justice would be for the owner to get in the ring with them and fight for their life.



  Isn't the Marine Corp mascot a bulldog?


----------



## Cowgirl

BS Gal said:


> Isn't the Marine Corp mascot a bulldog?



 I thought it was an English bulldog.  :shrug:


----------



## mAlice

krazd_kat said:


> BUT the correct pit bull may be animal agressive, but NOT human agressive.


----------



## cattitude

Cowgirl said:


> I thought it was an English bulldog.  :shrug:



Yep..but a "bully" nonetheless.  Just like my Boxers.


----------



## smilin

cattitude said:


> Yep..but a "bully" nonetheless.  Just like my Boxers.



I don't trust Pits because of their reputation. Isolated attacks I can see as hysteria, but time after time it's a Pit or worse a pack of them.
Yet I've been in the large dog pen of the dog park surrounded by Pits, Boxers, Rotweillers, Shepperds and other "dangerous" breeds.
Nothing happened, nothing, not even a growl, on more than one occasion.
The one consistent breed that attacked other dogs was: (people will howl on this one) Labradors, specifically yellow Labs. I saw at least five attacks including one on my dog - all by yellow Labs..
I think it's the owners and the relationship with their dog. The thing with Pits is it is a dog bred to attack other animals and any help they get from their owner will just push them into being more aggressive.


----------



## Dukesdad

I have had a crazy husky,mastiff, Rotties, and now have American Bulldogs. My brother raised wolf hybrids and shepherds. My parents had a chow.  The chow bit more people than can remember; they had neighbors that would open the door and walk right in. Some were a little slow on the uptake. 
I've been around big dogs all of my life and of all the dogs I have been around, one AST and the chow scared me. With that being said, I have a fear of pits and I know I couldn't own one and wouldn't want one around my family. They may be fine for others but not for me.


----------



## SoMDMama82

Just my .02, I am a owner of a American Red Nosed Pitt Bull(well, co-owner.  My fiance brought her into our house 3 years ago).  She is a sweetie pie.  We have a 14 mo daughter, who the dog will protect to the end.

I love the dog to death, she is a big baby, but I respect her as I do other breed (or any animal with sharp teeth!).  I watch her closely around my child, and other children (mainly because she loves to chew stick and such).  I put her in our bedroom if we have company over, or if the deliver man is coming to the door.  She will protect our family in a heartbeat (even if we may not need it).  

If she were to ATTEMPT to attack another person/animal, we would consider putting her down.  I would not want to risk my family or anyone elses.

Every animal has it's wild instinct, and could turn on humans at any point.  I don't say ban any, just respect them all!


----------



## wineo

Dukesdad said:


> I have had a crazy husky,mastiff, Rotties, and now have American Bulldogs. My brother raised wolf hybrids and shepherds. My parents had a chow.  The chow bit more people than can remember; they had neighbors that would open the door and walk right in. Some were a little slow on the uptake.
> I've been around big dogs all of my life and of all the dogs I have been around, one AST and the chow scared me. With that being said, I have a fear of pits and I know I couldn't own one and wouldn't want one around my family. They may be fine for others but not for me.



Oyster and Pearl, remember them well.  The little dog had to be locked up before I could come in, and I am not afraid of dogs, have been around them all my life, but Pits are different.

I agree with you on this.  Don't want them around me, my dogs, just don't trust them.


----------



## krazd_kat

smilin said:


> I don't trust Pits because of their *reputation*. Isolated attacks I can see as hysteria, but *time after time it's a Pit or worse a pack of them.*Yet I've been in the large dog pen of the dog park surrounded by Pits, Boxers, Rotweillers, Shepperds and other "dangerous" breeds.
> Nothing happened, nothing, not even a growl, on more than one occasion.
> *The one consistent breed that attacked other dogs was: (people will howl on this one) Labradors*, specifically yellow Labs. I saw at least five attacks including one on my dog - all by yellow Labs..
> I think it's the owners and the relationship with their dog. The thing with Pits is it is a dog bred to attack other animals and any help they get from their owner will just push them into being more aggressive.



Many times on dog attacks they report it as a pit or pit mix, rarely do they correct the statement when they find out it was actually a Labrador or any other breed.  They don't sell newspapers, the pit attacks do.  

I always advise my adopters, be it pits or Rottweilers to NOT go to dog parks as anything that happens there, regardless if their dog is laying on it's back for a belly rub, it will be *their* dogs fault, and that will only add to their bad reputation.



Dukesdad said:


> I have had a crazy husky,mastiff, Rotties, and now have American Bulldogs. My brother raised wolf hybrids and shepherds. My parents had a chow.  The chow bit more people than can remember; they had neighbors that would open the door and walk right in. Some were a little slow on the uptake.
> I've been around big dogs all of my life and of all the dogs I have been around, one AST and the chow scared me. With that being said, *I have a fear of pits *and I know I couldn't own one and wouldn't want one around my family. They may be fine for others but not for me.



I don't trust huskys or chows (now is that strange) but I would never say ban them or give a neighbor a hard time about them.  UNLESS they were threatening my home, family or pets.  I feel that way about any animal.

So I suppose your fear of pits is the same as mine of the other two breeds.  I've never been in a situation where I had to consider rescuing one of those two and I really hope I'm not.  I'd probably do it, but I would then be forced to face my fear as they would know it.


----------



## kimmiekay98

My experience mainly comes from the vet hosptial where I've worked for the last 2+years. I've seen sweetheart pits / rotties / dobies and mean as hell labs / chows / spaniels. With that being said, I don't think I would ever own a pit or a chow or a dobie. I just personally don't like the breeds, nothing to do with temperment, just dont like the breed. I have been attacked by a st bernard w/o warning (they are supposed to be "good" family dogs). I have seen more chichiuas and terriers need to be muzzled and sedated than any other breed just for an exam! Overall I think a lot of it has to do with the instincts of the dog and how the family nutures or suppresses that instinct. An aggressive dog will always be aggressive, there isn't much you can do about that. You can tame that spirit a bit, but it will always be there.


----------



## sux2b44

BS Gal said:


> Isn't the Marine Corp mascot a bulldog?




bulldogs and/or Pitbulls.  the Offical mascot is Chesty the Bulldog which was established in 1983.  Chesty was one of his dogs and so was Jiggs, Monique, and all the others from 1960 to 1999 when he retired.  His "OFFICIAL" dog for his regimin was the pit bull.  this is because Marines go in for thei fight and never give up - aka - like a pitbull.


----------



## clevalley

sux2b44 said:


> bulldogs and/or Pitbulls





And she can take you to the Marines Pitbull Mascot if you want


----------



## mv_princess

I just wanted to post a picture of our attacking pit bull in action.....


Scary I know


----------



## krazd_kat

mv_princess said:


> I just wanted to post a picture of our attacking pit bull in action.....
> 
> 
> Scary I know



  Looks pretty scary to me....  all that drool when she gets up...   great picture!


----------



## mv_princess

krazd_kat said:


> Looks pretty scary to me....  all that drool when she gets up...   great picture!


She is good about when she rolls over like that she keeps her mouth closed. But she loves that pillow and has to cover her head


----------



## clevalley

mv_princess said:


> I just wanted to post a picture of our attacking pit bull in action.....
> 
> 
> Scary I know



I am on the fence with these dogs - BUT after being exposed to Sux2b44's uncle's dog (I only met one, heard stories about the other ones - I will let her expand on this if she cares to do so) he really is a big baby.  At first, he had to get to know me - after that I was fine.  Next time we go out to see them, I am sure I will have to be re-introduced to him - after that, it will be OK.

I would expect for someone to get to know my German Shepherd before I let them alone in the same room with her! 

IMO - It really depends on the dog and its background - next followed by the handling... if any of these two are out-of-whack, you will have an out-of-whack dog...


----------



## SoftballCrazy

mv_princess said:


> I just wanted to post a picture of our attacking pit bull in action.....
> 
> 
> Scary I know



Awww...cute pic!


----------



## mv_princess

clevalley said:


> I am on the fence with these dogs - BUT after being exposed to Sux2b44's uncle's dog (I only met one, heard stories about the other ones - I will let her expand on this if she cares to do so) he really is a big baby.  At first, he had to get to know me - after that I was fine.  Next time we go out to see them, I am sure I will have to be re-introduced to him - after that, it will be OK.
> 
> I would expect for someone to get to know my German Shepherd before I let them alone in the same room with her!
> 
> IMO - It really depends on the dog and its background - next followed by the handling... if any of these two are out-of-whack, you will have an out-of-whack dog...


We just a had a big birthday bash for my father last weekend. And we left the girls outside, because we weren't sure how they would handle that many new people at once. Well people moved outside because they wanted to see the girls, both dogs were happy to see people but were more worried about chasing each around the yard nascar style.

Again until I see her become agressive towards someone or at something even in the smallest way. Then I will become overly worried.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> Again until I see her become agressive towards someone or at something even in the smallest way. Then I will become overly worried.



and at that point someones kid will be needing plastic surgery or their pet will be dead.

i hope it NEVER happens, but too often people take the attitude you are displaying instead of taking precautions to prevent it from ever happening. 

worrying about it later doesnt help


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> and at that point someones kid will be needing plastic surgery or their pet will be dead.
> 
> i hope it NEVER happens, but too often people take the attitude you are displaying instead of taking precautions to prevent it from ever happening.
> 
> worrying about it later doesnt help


And just what do you suggest (*never being a pit owner yourself*) I do? 


I mean you must know and have all the answers right? 
This is like asking "how do I prevent my child from growing up to become a murder?"


----------



## Baja28

tommyjones said:


> and at that point someones kid will be needing plastic surgery or their pet will be dead.
> 
> i hope it NEVER happens, but too often people take the attitude you are displaying instead of taking precautions to prevent it from ever happening.
> 
> worrying about it later doesnt help


Such lovable family dogs. Would never harm me or my family.....  

Google Image Result for http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/photo/2007-10/33415908.jpg



> Kenneth Garrison, with his son, Jadyn, 1, who was attacked by the family's pit bull and hospitalized. Garrison, too, was hurt. (Sun photo by Gene Sweeney Jr. / October 22, 2007)
> 
> The dog rarely barked. He never growled, and his teeth - until a vicious attack Saturday night - had been reserved for chewing food, his owners say.


----------



## Baja28

Another happy pic.....

Google Image Result for http://www.readingeagle.com/blog/paws/archives/Erin%20Dickinson.jpg




> Erin Dickinson, 7, was mauled by a pit bull May 24 near her south Reading home.
> 
> Here's a little background:
> 
> The first account said a pit bull had attacked the girl and an American bulldog had also been in the vicinity chasing her. In a subsequent story, it became two pit bulls and that they were both trying to bite the girl and her 8-year-old brother. The brother was not bitten.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> And just what do you suggest (*never being a pit owner yourself*) I do?
> 
> 
> I mean you must know and have all the answers right?
> This is like asking "how do I prevent my child from growing up to become a murder?"



its not at all. 

You keep your potentially vicious dog on a leash at all times when it is around people. You keep it in a fenced yard AND remain outside with it at all times to ensure it doesn't leave the containment. You remain vigalent in protecting others from the potential harm your CHOICE in dogs can cause.


going with the attitude that i'll worry about it after she shows she is vicious is exactly the problem.


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> its not at all.
> 
> You keep your potentially vicious dog on a leash at all times when it is around people. You keep it in a fenced yard AND remain outside with it at all times to ensure it doesn't leave the containment. You remain vigalent in protecting others from the potential harm your CHOICE in dogs can cause.
> 
> 
> going with the attitude that i'll worry about it after she shows she is vicious is exactly the problem.


And I am doing all those things now. You seem to think all pit owners dont do those things. 

But since I am on top of all that, and she will be "ferocious" anyways, what else should I do?


----------



## mAlice

> "I was always one that said pits are fine and they're only mean if you train them to be that way," Garrison said. "This thing made a liar out of me."





> A June assault left an East Baltimore woman hospitalized with bites and gashes on her head, neck, arms and legs. In April, a 10-year-old Towson boy spent more than two weeks in the hospital recovering from his injuries, and two Baltimore sheriff's deputies shot and killed a pit bull as it was attacking a 7-year-old girl.
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently released a report that showed pit bulls were responsible for more dog bite-related attacks than any other breed during a 20-year period.


----------



## Baja28

Fair and balanced reporting is crucial...... equal time. 

Let YOUR children, neices, nephews, cousins etc. play with them.  Mine never will..... 

Google Image Result for http://aussie_news_views.typepad.com/aussie_news_views/images/pit_bull_attack.jpg


----------



## mv_princess

When The Dog Bites, Debbye Turner Tells You What To Do - CBS News

Potentially aggressive breeds: 

Llasa Apso: can be cranky with kids 

Toy poodles: bite out of self defense 

Dachsunds: not very patient 

Rhodesian Ridgebacks: very dominant breed 

Miniature Pinschers: "big dog" mindset in little body 

Pekinese: intolerant 

Chihuahuas: prefer adults, not tolerant of kids 

Chow Chow: one-person dogs, bite without warning 

Giant Schnauzers: very dominant breed, will even challenge adults 

Old English Sheep Dog: very protective of owner 

Cocker Spaniel: very protective of owner 

Rottweilers: very protective
Typically gentle breeds that have "bad boy" reputations: 

German Shepherd: great with kids 

Bulldog: gentle, playful 

Rottweilers: can be gentle, affectionate 

Great Danes: gentle, affectionate 

Boxers: good with kids 

Mastiffs-very docile


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> And I am doing all those things now. You seem to think all pit owners dont do those things.
> 
> But since I am on top of all that, and she will be "ferocious" anyways, what else should I do?



hope???

if you are really doing all those things thats all you can do. unfortunately, manytimes people get complacent and that is when to trouble occurs.

and i never said she will ne ferocious, just that if she doesn bite someone or their pet, it will be tragic, not just something scarry.


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> hope???
> 
> if you are really doing all those things thats all you can do. unfortunately, manytimes people get complacent and that is when to trouble occurs.
> 
> and i never said she will ne ferocious, just that if she doesn bite someone or their pet, it will be tragic, not just something scarry.


Why is it not tragic when a Lab bites someone? Or even another dog?


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> When The Dog Bites, Debbye Turner Tells You What To Do - CBS News
> 
> Potentially aggressive breeds:
> 
> Llasa Apso: can be cranky with kids
> 
> Toy poodles: bite out of self defense
> 
> Dachsunds: not very patient
> 
> Rhodesian Ridgebacks: very dominant breed
> 
> Miniature Pinschers: "big dog" mindset in little body
> 
> Pekinese: intolerant
> 
> Chihuahuas: prefer adults, not tolerant of kids
> 
> Chow Chow: one-person dogs, bite without warning
> 
> Giant Schnauzers: very dominant breed, will even challenge adults
> 
> Old English Sheep Dog: very protective of owner
> 
> Cocker Spaniel: very protective of owner
> 
> Rottweilers: very protective
> Typically gentle breeds that have "bad boy" reputations:
> 
> German Shepherd: great with kids
> 
> Bulldog: gentle, playful
> 
> Rottweilers: can be gentle, affectionate
> 
> Great Danes: gentle, affectionate
> 
> Boxers: good with kids
> 
> Mastiffs-very docile



let me ask you this. Would YOU rather be bitten by an out of control mini-pin or a vicious pit?


and there is your freaking answer!!! All dogs can bite, some can kill you, your kid or your pet when they do.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> Why is it not tragic when a Lab bites someone? Or even another dog?



ok, everybody get out their stories of when labs have killed children or other dogs.

anybody?????


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> let me ask you this. Would YOU rather be bitten by an out of control mini-pin or a vicious pit?
> 
> 
> and there is your freaking answer!!! All dogs can bite, some can kill you, your kid or your pet when they do.


I guess you have never been chased by a little dog....

Sure they wont kill you, but they don't back down either mostly because they know they can't kill you.

Listen you hate Pits, I still get it. Like I said early. 
I take into effect that my girl is a pit, and might someday attack someone, or simply die of old age. 
I will take care of her and when you see us out on the street her with her stick in her mouth, please don't worry I will make sure to stay FAR FAR FAR way from anyone human or animal.

you know just in case.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> I guess you have never been chased by a little dog....
> 
> Sure they wont kill you, but they don't back down either mostly because they know they can't kill you.



:weakestargumentever:


----------



## mAlice

tommyjones said:


> ok, everybody get out their stories of when labs have killed children or other dogs.
> 
> anybody?????



Yes.  In my 'hood.  Lab killed an italian greyhound.  Unprovoked.


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> Why is it not tragic when a Lab bites someone? Or even another dog?



It can be tragic, but it's not common.


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> Yes.  In my 'hood.  Lab killed an italian greyhound.  Unprovoked.


And in that same neighborhood, two different other labs attacked two kids. 

Different years different dogs. Both labs


----------



## Baja28

mv_princess said:


> Why is it not tragic when a Lab bites someone? Or even another dog?


Here's why MV....



> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently released a report that showed pit bulls were responsible for more dog bite-related attacks than any other breed during a 20-year period.



Other dogs don't do the damage this type does on a consistant basis (Except Rotties).


----------



## tommyjones

mAlice said:


> Yes.  In my 'hood.  Lab killed an italian greyhound.  Unprovoked.



intresting....


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> And in that same neighborhood, two different other labs attacked two kids.
> 
> Different years different dogs. Both labs



were they maimed?


----------



## mAlice

Baja28 said:


> Here's why MV....
> 
> 
> 
> Other dogs don't do the damage this type does on a consistant basis (Except Rotties).



...most dog bites are just that, a bite.  They don't attack and try to rip your face off and kill you.


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> were they maimed?


The first one, was very tore up, had plastic surgery done.

The second the dog almost took off the knee. Docs fixed it without having plastic surgery done.


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> ...most dog bites are just that, a bite.  They don't attack and try to rip your face off and kill you.


But still don't understand why any dog (*not just pits*) Shouldn't be put down after a bite?! Isn't that being aggressive?


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> But still don't understand why any dog (*not just pits*) Shouldn't be put down after a bite?! Isn't that being aggressive?



I think any dog that shows aggression should be put down.


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> I think any dog that shows aggression should be put down.


But they aren't.


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> But they aren't.




Neither are all pits.  So, what's your point?


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> Neither are all pits.  So, what's your point?


If they bite someone they are.


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> If they bite someone they are.



Prove it.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> If they bite someone they are.



no they aren't. And they definatley aren't if all they do is kill a neighbors pet.


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> Prove it.


Oh good heavens. I am sure I could with a few google searches. But really does it matter? 

I own a pit. And really it doesn't matter what I say, someone is going to hate her. And really that's fine. More play time for me. 

I have a better one for you, stop by the house meet her, and still tell me all pits are horrible/aggressive.


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> Oh good heavens. I am sure I could with a few google searches. But really does it matter?
> 
> I own a pit. And really it doesn't matter what I say, someone is going to hate her. And really that's fine. More play time for me.
> 
> I have a better one for you, stop by the house meet her, and still tell me all pits are horrible/aggressive.



You can google all you want, and I'm sure you'll find instances of many dogs being put down for biting/attacking/showing agrression.  Doesn't mean that _all _are.

I'll pass on meeting your dog.  I've had my fair share of pit experiences, and I'm really not interested in having more.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> Oh good heavens. I am sure I could with a few google searches. But really does it matter?
> 
> I own a pit. And really it doesn't matter what I say, someone is going to hate her. And really that's fine. More play time for me.
> 
> *I have a better one for you, stop by the house meet her, and still tell me all pits are horrible/aggressive*.



and i can introduce you to a few labs that HATE the water, what does that prove?


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> and i can introduce you to a few labs that HATE the water, what does that prove?


So with that statement, 

Why can you sit here and say all pit's are mean and aggressive? And they will attack


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> You can google all you want, and I'm sure you'll find instances of many dogs being put down for biting/attacking/showing agrression.  Doesn't mean that _all _are.
> 
> I'll pass on meeting your dog.  I've had my fair share of pit experiences, and I'm really not interested in having more.


That's a shame. She would probably lick you to death, and we wouldn't want that now would we


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> So with that statement,
> 
> Why can you sit here and say all pit's are mean and aggressive? And they will attack



i dont know if i can go slooooow enough for you to understand. One instance that does not align with the stereotype does not disprove the stereotype.

The fact of the matter is that pits are both more likely to be agressive towards other dogs and people, and have the ability to inflict great damage if they do decide to bite.


----------



## mv_princess

Pit bulls and your... 02-27-2008 10:23 AM ya lick you until she decided to turn and bite your ugly hair off 
 Pit bulls and your... 02-27-2008 10:09 AM Give up. She loves to argue. I don't think she's ever owned a dog. 


Those made me giggle.


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> That's a shame. She would probably lick you to death, and we wouldn't want that now would we




That's what I've been told about other pits that have become aggressive.  So, there ya' go.  I don't want to be the person in the line of fire when one is in a pissy mood and wants to chew someone's face off.

I understand how you feel about your animal.  I'm sure the guy in the article with the picture of the baby with the disfigured face felt the same way about his pit.  

You're the one who will have to live with it if your dog becomes one that's aggressive.  Not me.


----------



## mv_princess

mAlice said:


> That's what I've been told about other pits that have become aggressive.  So, there ya' go.  I don't want to be the person in the line of fire when one is in a pissy mood and wants to chew someone's face off.
> 
> I understand how you feel about your animal.  I'm sure the guy in the article with the picture of the baby with the disfigured face felt the same way about his pit.
> 
> You're the one who will have to live with it if your dog becomes one that's aggressive.  Not me.


You are right. And I am big girl I can handle it.


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> So with that statement,
> 
> Why can you sit here and say all pit's are mean and aggressive? And they will attack



I think we're saying they are more likely to become aggressive than most breeds.  I have no doubt that there are plenty of pits that have been gentle their entire lives.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> You are right. And I am big girl I can handle it.



well its awful nice of you to be mature enough to handle someone elses kid getting disfigured by your dog


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> well its awful nice of you to be mature enough to handle someone elses kid getting disfigured by your dog


You are right, I will be a big enough person to take the blame, I own the dog, and will do whatever to help whatever my dog has hurt.


----------



## tommyjones

mv_princess said:


> You are right, I will be a big enough person to take the blame, I own the dog, and will do whatever to help whatever my dog has hurt.



wow


----------



## Cowgirl

Can I just interrupt for a moment?  I think the horse has been beaten to a pulp.  In fact, you can't even tell it was a horse...it's just a pile of nastiness at this point.   

I think MV knows the responsibility of a pit owner (ANY dog owner, really).  I think tommy and mAlice have proven their points.  Any dog can be vicious, but pits are especially dangerous because of their strength.  Sure, there are nice, sweet pits.  There are also mean labs, etc.


----------



## KWAK

mv_princess said:


> You are right, I will be a big enough person to take the blame, I own the dog, and will do whatever to help whatever my dog has hurt.



Would you still feel that way if it was your own child you had to deal with?  If your dog attacked your kid - you came home to open wounds and lots of blood?  

If so, I'll give you my parents phone number and you can ask them how that felt to get that phone call. . .


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> wow


Wow what? Explain to me (*maybe slowly since I am not getting your point*) how that is wrong? 

What should I say?


----------



## pixiegirl

Cowgirl said:


> Can I just interrupt for a moment?  I think the horse has been beaten to a pulp.  In fact, you can't even tell it was a horse...it's just a pile of nastiness at this point.
> 
> I think MV knows the responsibility of a pit owner (ANY dog owner, really).  I think tommy and mAlice have proven their points.  Any dog can be vicious, but pits are especially dangerous because of their strength.  Sure, there are nice, sweet pits.  There are also mean labs, etc.




How dare you use reason and logical thinking!


----------



## mAlice

mv_princess said:


> Wow what? Explain to me (*maybe slowly since I am not getting your point*) how that is wrong?
> 
> What should I say?



No reason to say anything.  You have as much right to your opinion as he does.


----------



## mv_princess

HalfAngel said:


> Would you still feel that way if it was your own child you had to deal with?  If your dog attacked your kid - you came home to open wounds and lots of blood?
> 
> If so, I'll give you my parents phone number and you can ask them how that felt to get that phone call. . .


If it's my dog, I understand the risks. Yes they can attack. Yes they can do damage. I understand. 

And if I get that phone call, again I will deal with it, fix my child and deal with the dog (*of any breed*) and at that point I still understand I need to take the blame it was/is MY DOG


----------



## Cowgirl

pixiegirl said:


> How dare you use reason and logical thinking!



  I don't know what came over me!!  


Kill all dogs!!!  Or pull out all of their teeth!!!


----------



## KWAK

mv_princess said:


> If it's my dog, I understand the risks. Yes they can attack. Yes they can do damage. I understand.
> 
> And if I get that phone call, again I will deal with it, fix my child and deal with the dog (*of any breed*) and at that point I still understand I need to take the blame it was/is MY DOG



I was lucky because my dog missed my neck - which he was going for - what if by that time you can't "fix" you kid??


----------



## mv_princess

HalfAngel said:


> I was lucky because my dog missed my neck - which he was going for - what if by that time you can't "fix" you kid??


So I should never own a pet because they might one day attack?


----------



## KWAK

mv_princess said:


> So I should never own a pet because they might one day attack?



I'm not saying you should not own a pet - even after what I went through, I still own dogs.  I just shy away from any pet that has a history of one day snapping.


----------



## mv_princess

HalfAngel said:


> I'm not saying you should not own a pet - even after what I went through, I still own dogs.  I just shy away from any pet that has a history of one day snapping.


So what kind of pet do you own?


----------



## KWAK

mv_princess said:


> So what kind of pet do you own?



I have a black labrador and a beagle/blue tick mix.


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

SoftballCrazy said:


> The answer...(I would've waited to post, but I've got to get out of here...)
> 
> http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_find_the_pitbull_key.pdf



I had it between him and the Dogo dog.


----------



## krazd_kat

Personally I think ANY agressive dog should be dealt with appropriately BUT the same justice should apply to all breeds.  

Yes my breeds of choice can cause more damage if they do attack, but I still think that my dogs are no more prone to attack than the labs or German Shepherds, etc...

That's where most of our differences in opinion lies.  I hope to he!! I'm never proven wrong, I do my best to protect the public, it would probably be only me paying the price if they do prove me a liar.

I think that with RESPONSIBLE owners, your chances of being bit by a pit are slim in public, but you would be more likely to be bit by the lab or other dog.  Why?  Because, the owners of the other dogs are less careful with them, looser leash walking, sure come pet my dog, and pay more attention to everything else other than the dog....  A responsible Pit owner uses a very short leash and would never encourage someone to just walk up and pet their dog and is aware of whatever is approaching them.

A friend of mine was attacked and seriously injured as a child by Labradors, but she loves all the pits and Rottweilers that come in the kennel she is part owner of, says they are far more sweet and loveable than the other breeds tend to be.

Short end - BSL is wrong, it's being proven every day in other places that it doesn't work.  So far the winning choice is "Ban the deed, not the breed".

We will forever disagree on pits.  That's what makes each of us unique is our choices in life.

After all, I think the crotch rockets (motorcycles) are MORE dangerous than other bikes, should they be illegal to ride on the street?

Thank you all for your comments and voting.


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

tommyjones said:


> no they aren't. And they definatley aren't if all they do is kill a neighbors pet.



Some are put down for killing another animal.


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

krazd_kat said:


> Personally I think ANY agressive dog should be dealt with appropriately BUT the same justice should apply to all breeds.
> 
> Yes my breeds of choice can cause more damage if they do attack, but I still think that my dogs are no more prone to attack than the labs or German Shepherds, etc...
> 
> That's where most of our differences in opinion lies.  I hope to he!! I'm never proven wrong, I do my best to protect the public, it would probably be only me paying the price if they do prove me a liar.
> 
> I think that with RESPONSIBLE owners, your chances of being bit by a pit are slim in public, but you would be more likely to be bit by the lab or other dog.  Why?  Because, the owners of the other dogs are less careful with them, looser leash walking, sure come pet my dog, and pay more attention to everything else other than the dog....  A responsible Pit owner uses a very short leash and would never encourage someone to just walk up and pet their dog and is aware of whatever is approaching them.
> 
> A friend of mine was attacked and seriously injured as a child by Labradors, but she loves all the pits and Rottweilers that come in the kennel she is part owner of, says they are far more sweet and loveable than the other breeds tend to be.
> 
> Short end - BSL is wrong, it's being proven every day in other places that it doesn't work.  So far the winning choice is "Ban the deed, not the breed".
> 
> We will forever disagree on pits.  That's what makes each of us unique is our choices in life.
> 
> After all, I think the crotch rockets (motorcycles) are MORE dangerous than other bikes, should they be illegal to ride on the street?
> 
> Thank you all for your comments and voting.



Hey, I got a poodle bite yesterday, little shiat!


----------



## mv_princess

Pit bulls and your... 02-27-2008 12:10 PM STFU back 2 you biatch 

I haven't sent any karma sorry.


----------



## Baja28

krazd_kat said:


> Yes my breeds of choice can cause more damage if they do attack, but I still *think* that my dogs are no more prone to attack than the labs or German Shepherds, etc... *You "think"... you are ignoring the 20 years of research by the CDC??*
> 
> That's where most of our differences in opinion lies.  I hope to he!! I'm never proven wrong, *The CDC has already proven you wrong Kat.* :shrug: I do my best to protect the public, it would probably be only me paying the price if they do prove me a liar. *Probably? You're willing to risk your childs life with that? *
> 
> I think*<--- there are those words again...*  that with RESPONSIBLE owners, your chances of being bit by a pit are slim in public, but you would be more likely to be bit by the lab or other dog.  Why?  Because, the owners of the other dogs are less careful with them, looser leash walking, sure come pet my dog, and pay more attention to everything else other than the dog....  A responsible Pit owner uses a very short leash and would never encourage someone to just walk up and pet their dog and is aware of whatever is approaching them. *Why own a breed that can't be trusted? *
> 
> Short end - BSL is wrong, it's being proven every day in other places that it doesn't work.  So far the winning choice is "Ban the deed, not the breed". *Your opinion...*
> 
> We will forever disagree on pits.  That's what makes each of us unique is our choices in life.
> 
> After all, I think the crotch rockets (motorcycles) are MORE dangerous than other bikes, should they be illegal to ride on the street? *Poor analogy. Comparing an inanimate object controlled by a human to a living animal controlled by it's own mind. *
> 
> Thank you all for your comments and voting.


----------



## tommyjones

krazd_kat said:


> Yes my breeds of choice can cause more damage if they do attack, but I still think that my dogs are no more prone to attack than the labs or German Shepherds, etc...
> 
> After all, I think the crotch rockets (motorcycles) are MORE dangerous than other bikes, should they be illegal to ride on the street?
> 
> Thank you all for your comments and voting.



as to your first point;
 the difference is the result of the attack combined with the likelyhood creates a greater risk. 
if a minipin 'attacks' me i would kick it away or pick it up by the scruff of the neck and toss it. an attack by a pit would probably require soemthing along the lines of me gouging out its eyes with my thumbs to get it to stop.

see?

as to the second point: you better believe if people other than the operators of motorcycles were getting hurt by there use on the highways they would be illegal. As it stands,  only the riders are in any statistical danger.


----------



## krazd_kat

Those crotch rockets have the potential due to their UNRESPONSIBLE drivers to cause accidents which could result in death...

Yes, I trust MY dogs and dogs of other responsible owners (I trust the owners).

I have NO children, so there is no one in danger at my home other than myself.

I DO trust the breed.

And yes, I do "think" and I'm one that usually thinks before talking or leaping into anything.


----------



## Solja_Boy

tommyjones said:


> as to your first point;
> the difference is the result of the attack combined with the likelyhood creates a greater risk.
> if a minipin 'attacks' me i would kick it away or pick it up by the scruff of the neck and toss it. an attack by a pit would probably require soemthing along the lines of me gouging out its eyes with my thumbs to get it to stop.
> 
> see?
> .



That is not a good point.  A very large pit would be 100lbs.  Most are not over 70 lbs,

What about dogs like Mastifs that can be 250 lbs.  Wouldn't they be a lot harder to fight off than a pit?

The pit is just the current popular "Bad dog" in the media.


----------



## Mdcopswife

They scare me. Maybe I just don't know enough about the breed to make a judgement. Any animal that kills people scare me. Then again my lab killed a baby chick when she was a puppy. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## gumbo

Baja28 said:


> Here's why MV....
> 
> 
> 
> Other dogs don't do the damage this type does on a consistant basis (Except Rotties).



Well hell lets ban black people too they statistically commit more homicides.

Dose black mix count in these stats? Or is it just anyone with dark skin that they can't account for origin?


----------



## tommyjones

Solja_Boy said:


> That is not a good point.  A very large pit would be 100lbs.  Most are not over 70 lbs,
> 
> What about dogs like Mastifs that can be 250 lbs.  Wouldn't they be a lot harder to fight off than a pit?
> 
> The pit is just the current popular "Bad dog" in the media.



i never said other large agressive breeds were any safer to own.

the pit has earned its reputaion, partially through breeding and partially through irresponsible owners, but it is an earned reputation.


----------



## Solja_Boy

Part of the breading of a pit is to be non people agressive?  Acording to the AKC the pit is one of the best dogs to have with small children.

The majority of pits do not have good owners.  The worldwide figures state the only 1 out of every 600 pits find a home with a good owner.



> Temperament
> From the past history of the  Bull Terrier, the modern dog draws its character of indomitable courage, high intelligence, and tenacity. This, coupled with its affection for its friends, *and children in particular*, its off-duty quietness and trustworthy stability, makes it a foremost all-purpose dog.


----------



## Baja28

gumbo said:


> Well hell lets ban black people too they statistically commit more homicides.
> 
> Dose black mix count in these stats? Or is it just anyone with dark skin that they can't account for origin?



So you're comparing an unpredictable, aggressive animal that kills spontaneously to a black person.  Interesting analogy G.


----------



## Baja28

Solja_Boy said:


> Part of the breading of a pit is to be non people agressive?  Acording to the AKC the pit is one of the best dogs to have with small children.
> 
> The majority of pits do not have good owners.  The worldwide figures state the only 1 out of every 600 pits find a home with a good owner.


Hey dumbass, read the entire thread.  Especially my posts with pics of the kids that these "child friendly" dogs chewed on.  

Where are your "worldwide" figures coming from?  

:whatafrigginmoron:


----------



## Solja_Boy

Baja28 said:


> So you're comparing an unpredictable, aggressive animal that kills spontaneously to a black person.  Interesting analogy G.



They do not kill spontainiously.  Go watch a documentary on Dog fighting then you will undersand that these dogs a trained to kill and that they do not just do this on thier own.


----------



## tommyjones

Solja_Boy said:


> The majority of pits do not have good owners.  The worldwide figures state the only 1 out of every 600 pits find a home with a good owner.



if 599 out of 600 are living with irresponsible owners than we are all at risk. 

i dont see how that helps your point.


----------



## sockgirl77

There are how many thousand breeds of dogs? Why does anyone feel the need to own one that has proven itself to be violent? It's not even a pretty dog.


----------



## Baja28

Solja_Boy said:


> They do not kill spontainiously.  Go watch a documentary on Dog fighting then you will undersand that these dogs a trained to kill and that they do not just do this on thier own.



oof:  I'm done with you.


----------



## Solja_Boy

tommyjones said:


> if 599 out of 600 are living with irresponsible owners than we are all at risk.
> 
> i dont see how that helps your point.



Most of these dogs are in china where dog fighting is a national sport.


----------



## Baja28

sockgirl77 said:


> There are how many thousand breeds of dogs? Why does anyone feel the need to own one that has proven itself to be violent? It's not even a pretty dog.


Over 50% of fatal maulings are done by 1-3% of the dog population.  Guess which breed that is??


----------



## tommyjones

Solja_Boy said:


> Most of these dogs are in china where dog fighting is a national sport.



oh, so they are breed for fighting, now i see why they are supposed to be such great dogs 

look, they are your statistics, i'm not the idiot that said only 1 out of 600 in the world are in responsible homes.


----------



## sockgirl77

Baja28 said:


> Over 50% of fatal maulings are done by 1-3% of the dog population.  Guess which breed that is??



Yorkies.


----------



## Solja_Boy

Baja28 said:


> Where are your "worldwide" figures coming from?



I got my figures from The Dog Wisperer.


----------



## Cowgirl

Pit bulls and your... 02-27-2008 10:43 AM nobody asked you to come attention hoin' around this thread. STFU you fat cow 


Awww....poor wittle Tommy has a stick up his bum today.


----------



## tommyjones

Cowgirl said:


> Pit bulls and your... 02-27-2008 10:43 AM nobody asked you to come attention hoin' around this thread. STFU you fat cow
> 
> 
> Awww....poor wittle Tommy has a stick up his bum today.



awwww, poor, stupid, fat azzed cowgirl didn't get the attention she wanted from pming me, instead she got the predictable STFU in PM form.......

you may now ####inue your attention hoin'


----------



## Cowgirl

tommyjones said:


> awwww, poor, stupid, fat azzed cowgirl didn't get the attention she wanted from pming me, instead she got the predictable STFU in PM form.......
> 
> you may now ####inue your attention hoin'



I just wanted to share your lovely attitude with the class.


----------



## tommyjones

Cowgirl said:


> I just wanted to share your lovely attitude with the class.



no, you just wanted some more attention. 
do you feel better now, or are you still fat and pathetic?

I share my attitude plenty on my own.


----------



## Cowgirl

tommyjones said:


> no, you just wanted some more attention.
> do you feel better now, or are you still fat and pathetic?
> 
> I share my attitude plenty on my own.


----------



## tommyjones

Cowgirl said:


>



hey, i got an idea, maybe you should try emailing me, see how that works out for ya 


:theretardissuperwiththisone:


----------



## gumbo

Baja28 said:


> So you're comparing an unpredictable, aggressive animal that kills spontaneously to a black person.  Interesting analogy G.



Are not the ones that commit homicides unpredictable, aggressive and act like animals that kill spontaneously?

You treat the actions of some as a whole. Why can't I?

Hell yea! Why stop at Pull starts push starts Pit bulls and blacks. 
Lets ban Chinks and chilie chomppers too.


----------



## dawn

Baja28 said:


> Over 50% of fatal maulings are done by 1-3% of the dog population.  Guess which breed that is??



Link please.


----------



## sockgirl77

dawn said:


> Link please.



http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Take a look at the table.


----------



## gumbo

sockgirl77 said:


> http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
> 
> Take a look at the table.



That list is such boggiest bull crap and lop sided. Most Jack asses that work for animal control wouldn't know a pit bull form a ostrich.

There are numerous breeds of bull dogs. Notice how none are listed.
Hell there isn't even a boxer listed.
That because those morons lump them all into one. If they are not sure what it is, it must be a pit bull.


----------



## mAlice

gumbo said:


> That list is such boggiest bull crap and lop sided. Most Jack asses that work for animal control wouldn't know a pit bull form a ostrich.
> 
> There are numerous breeds of bull dogs. Notice how none are listed.
> Hell there isn't even a boxer listed.
> That because those morons lump them all into one. If they are not sure what it is, it must be a pit bull.




It said "pit bull type" dogs.  Which goes back to earlier posts, and the old argument "you couldn't identify a pit bull if it bit you in the azz".  Lame argument.  They're all similar in appearance and temperament.  They're all from the same stock.


----------



## mAlice

sockgirl77 said:


> http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
> 
> Take a look at the table.




Excellent find.


----------



## clevalley

mAlice said:


> It said "pit bull type" dogs.  Which goes back to earlier posts, and the old argument "you couldn't identify a pit bull if it bit you in the azz".  Lame argument.  They're all similar in appearance and temperament.  *They're all from the same stock*.



BINGO!  

Any breed of dog, if they are inbred will have a severe temperament issue.

Unfortunately, the popularity of the Pitbull has caused a mass breeding explosion in this breed.  Because of the demographics of people wanting them for some type of status symbol (majority black) these dogs have been inbred for years... I am saying go back 30 years - no fresh blood is coming in.  The majority of people wanting these dogs do not have the cash to afford a good dog - thus the dogs are inner-bred and the dogs are sold cheap.  Guess what happens?

Any reputable breeder will introduce fresh blood into the mix.  This is why you see German Shepherds (GSD's) being bought by Police Service from overseas - they are guaranteed... reputable breeders of GSD's will buy dog from overseas to ensure their blood-line is not mixed.

Harvick29 - you cannot deny the attack of Pitbulls, but I would venture to guess the attacks are from the results of inbreeding.  It is unfortunate there is no data to back this up as it is not recorded.


----------



## Baja28

dawn said:


> Link please.


Facts & Stats about Dog Bites

Links have been posted in this and other forums.  All you need do is look. 



> In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks.
> 
> From 1979 to 1998, at least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in bite related deaths. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were involved in more than 50 percent of these incidences.


----------



## gumbo

mAlice said:


> It said "pit bull type" dogs.  Which goes back to earlier posts, and the old argument "you couldn't identify a pit bull if it bit you in the azz".  Lame argument.  They're all similar in appearance and temperament.  They're all from the same stock.



Well lets just throw 50 different breeds into the mix and call them pit bulls. Better yet lets just call all breeds Wolfs.

Your reasoning sucks.. Next you're going to say all dark skinned people are Africans because their similar in appearance. They're from the same stock!


----------



## gumbo

It strikes me as funny how people who know the lest about something always have the most sheot to talk.

It's obvious that some of you have never breed dogs, nor know anything about any particular breed..But yet you feel the need to voice your lame opinions based on bull sheot statistics and media hype.

It's really a waste of my time to even try to explain it to a bunch of idiots that are clearly close descendants to those who burnt witch's.

However I will attempt to prod your common sense one more time.

In the last two decades fatal shark attacks have risen to alarming rates.
Does this mean we should kill all sharks?
No this means look at it with some common sense.
In the last two decades there has been an explosion of the amount of morons that want to play with sharks.

So do we kill off all pit bulls because in the last two decades there has been an explosion of morons buying pit bulls and think its cool to make them mean?

Because you are afraid of snakes and don't trust them ,don't make all snakes bad, nor give you the right to banish them from earth.

Carry on Morons


----------



## Cyurius

gumbo said:


> It strikes me as funny how people who know the *lest* about something always have the most sheot to talk.
> 
> It's obvious that some of you have never *breed* dogs, nor know anything about any particular breed..But yet you feel the need to voice your lame opinions based on bull sheot statistics and media hype.
> 
> It's really a waste of my time to even try to explain it to a bunch of idiots that are clearly close descendants to those who burnt *witch's*.
> 
> However I will attempt to prod your common sense one more time.
> 
> In the last two decades fatal shark attacks have risen to alarming rates.
> Does this mean we should kill all sharks?
> No this means look at it with some common sense.
> In the last two decades there has been an explosion of the amount of morons that want to play with sharks.
> 
> So do we kill off all pit bulls because in the last two decades there has been an explosion of morons buying pit bulls and think its cool to make them mean?
> 
> Because you are afraid of snakes and don't trust them ,don't make all snakes bad, nor give you the right to banish them from earth.
> 
> *Carry on* *Morons*




Would you like to be the pot or the kettle?


----------



## mAlice

gumbo said:


> It strikes me as funny how people who know the lest about something always have the most sheot to talk.
> 
> It's obvious that some of you have never breed dogs, nor know anything about any particular breed..But yet you feel the need to voice your lame opinions based on bull sheot statistics and media hype.
> 
> It's really a waste of my time to even try to explain it to a bunch of idiots that are clearly close descendants to those who burnt witch's.
> 
> However I will attempt to prod your common sense one more time.
> 
> In the last two decades fatal shark attacks have risen to alarming rates.
> Does this mean we should kill all sharks?
> No this means look at it with some common sense.
> In the last two decades there has been an explosion of the amount of morons that want to play with sharks.
> 
> So do we kill off all pit bulls because in the last two decades there has been an explosion of morons buying pit bulls and think its cool to make them mean?
> 
> Because you are afraid of snakes and don't trust them ,don't make all snakes bad, nor give you the right to banish them from earth.
> 
> Carry on Morons



That made me laugh.


----------



## Solja_Boy

Baja28 said:


> Facts & Stats about Dog Bites
> 
> Links have been posted in this and other forums.  All you need do is look.



This means nothing.   Here is another statement from the same fact sheet you are quoting.  No matter what somones opinion is you can always find facts to back it up.  Even if you are wrong.  There is always some dumb ass who will do a biased study.



> Conclusions—Although fatal attacks on humans
> appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type
> dogs and Rottweilers), *other breeds may bite and
> cause fatalities at higher rates*.



your own article states that other breeds are deadlier that pits.


----------



## tommyjones

Solja_Boy said:


> This means nothing.   Here is another statement from the same fact sheet you are quoting.  No matter what somones opinion is you can always find facts to back it up.  Even if you are wrong.  There is always some dumb ass who will do a biased study.
> 
> 
> 
> your own article states that other breeds are deadlier that pits.



no, the article states that fatal attacks on humans appears to be breed specific.

the 'may' in the next part you quoted is the important word. Also, it appears that they are talking inclusively about all breeds in that part. So it may be true that all other dogs bite or even kill more often than pits. but if you look breed by breed i'll be there is no comparision.


----------



## Baja28

tommyjones said:


> no, the article states that fatal attacks on humans appears to be breed specific.
> 
> the 'may' in the next part you quoted is the important word. Also, it appears that they are talking inclusively about all breeds in that part. So it may be true that all other dogs bite or even kill more often than pits. but if you look breed by breed i'll be there is no comparision.


Thank you for dumbing it down for him.  He's impaired.


----------



## pixiegirl

Baja28 said:


> Facts & Stats about Dog Bites
> 
> Links have been posted in this and other forums.  All you need do is look.



I said I wasn't going to argue and I don't intend to but I checked out your article and it would probably help immensly if you used something that had statistics that were more current than 10 years old.

That goes for you too Socks.  The CDC stats are from 1998.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> That goes for you too Socks.  The CDC stats are from 1998.



Good idea.  I'm sure animal behavior changes a lot in 10 years.


----------



## CraneTaker77

people always blame the animal. it's how you raise them. it's not bred into they're genes for them to be mean. you can take any breed of dog, whether it be a lab, shepard heck even a ####zu and treat it like #### and make it a mean dog who's going to attack someone. it's not one specific breed. and i for one cannot stand the fact that when i'm walking around the amish market in charlotte hall and see people walking around with pit bulls with the huge spike collars on them trying to make them look "hard". just the other day i saw two guys walking a little pit puppy on a leash and the poor dog was so scared it wouldn't even walk, they were dragging it. my point is don't just assume "oh my god its a pit bull, kill it". any dog can be a mean dog, not just pit bull's. and the funny thing is, I don't even have a dog. I'm a cat person. But I still like dogs, and hate to see one particular breed get catagorized(sp?) like this.


----------



## tommyjones

mAlice said:


> Good idea.  I'm sure animal behavior changes a lot in 10 years.



as has the behavior of idiots........


i was watching a judge show the other day where a lady had 3 pits (all were the nicest dogs you would ever meet), that 'escaped' from her yard and killed the neighbors poodle. The lady didn't think she was responsible because the fence that separated the two yards had never been completly secured, so it was an act of god. Funny thing, it was her freaking fence.........

this idiot was putting her dogs out for hours at a time in a yard that was only partially fenced. Its just too bad animal control couldn't have put down the onwer instead of the pits.


----------



## pixiegirl

mAlice said:


> Good idea.  I'm sure animal behavior changes a lot in 10 years.



Animal Popularity and demographics do.    The more popular a dog gets in a certain area will most certainly affect statistics.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> Animal Popularity and demographics do.    The more popular a dog gets in a certain area will most certainly affect statistics.



By that logic, the stats should be worse.


----------



## kwillia

pixiegirl said:


> Animal Popularity and demographics do.    The more popular a dog gets in a certain area will most certainly affect statistics.



Pix, I watched a show on National Geographic last night about how humans created all dog breeds. Each dog breed was created to satisfy desired traits. I don't understand why you deny the purpose behind the creation of the pitbull...


----------



## tommyjones

kwillia said:


> Pix, I watched a show on National Geographic last night about how humans created all dog breeds. Each dog breed was created to satisfy desired traits. I don't understand why you deny the purpose behind the creation of the pitbull...



people actually think they were bred to be gaurd dogs.......


----------



## mAlice

kwillia said:


> I don't understand why you deny the purpose behind the creation of the pitbull...



I saw that a while back.


----------



## kwillia

mAlice said:


> I saw that a while back.



If you have digital cable, it's one of the free "on demand" choices this month.


----------



## mAlice

kwillia said:


> If you have digital cable, it's one of the free "on demand" choices this month.



Cool.  I can check it out again.  Thanks.


----------



## Baja28

pixiegirl said:


> I said I wasn't going to argue and I don't intend to but I checked out your article and it would probably help immensly if you used something that had statistics that were more current than 10 years old.
> 
> That goes for you too Socks.  The CDC stats are from 1998.


I know.  Valid point.  That's what I found and it's enough for me to make an informed decision.  I have an open mind.  I'd like those defending the dogs to post more current data from a valid, non-biased source.


----------



## kwillia

mAlice said:


> Cool.  I can check it out again.  Thanks.



The best part of the show is the last 15 minutes involving experiments comparing the natural behaviours of dogs vs. wolves. I watched that part twice...


----------



## Baja28

CraneTaker77 said:


> people always blame the animal. it's how you raise them. it's not bred into they're genes for them to be mean. you can take any breed of dog, whether it be a lab, shepard heck even a ####zu and treat it like #### and make it a mean dog who's going to attack someone. it's not one specific breed. and i for one cannot stand the fact that when i'm walking around the amish market in charlotte hall and see people walking around with pit bulls with the huge spike collars on them trying to make them look "hard". just the other day i saw two guys walking a little pit puppy on a leash and the poor dog was so scared it wouldn't even walk, they were dragging it. my point is don't just assume "oh my god its a pit bull, kill it". any dog can be a mean dog, not just pit bull's. and the funny thing is, I don't even have a dog. I'm a cat person. But I still like dogs, and hate to see one particular breed get catagorized(sp?) like this.


----------



## pixiegirl

mAlice said:


> By that logic, the stats should be worse.



Its possible.  My point was I'd like to see something newer than 10 years old and I don't think it's good practice to use 10 year old stats.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> Its possible.  My point was I'd like to see something newer than 10 years old and I don't think it's good practice to use 10 year old stats.



As Baja already stated..."I'd like those defending the dogs to post more current data from a valid, non-biased source. "

At least those who don't care for the breed are coming up with stats.  Those defending the dogs aren't even coming up with old stats to back their arguments.


----------



## cattitude

kwillia said:


> Pix, I watched a show on National Geographic last night about how humans created all dog breeds. Each dog breed was created to satisfy desired traits. I don't understand why you deny the purpose behind the creation of the pitbull...



No denying that it was created for DOG fighting..not to kill/maim people.  Overbreeding, careless handling, etc. account for a good bit of the problem.

Twenty years ago, Dobermans and German Shepherds were in the same position that the Pitts are today.

Heck, after the first 101 Dalmatian movie came out, shelters were overrun with "defective" Dals, because they aren't really family pets and the people buying them didn't really bother to "know" that before obtaining one.  

Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to take a chance on a Pitt, especially these days since so many of them are so poorly bred.  But our Buster definitely has some Pitt in him even though I have papers that say he is a purebred Boxer.


----------



## pixiegirl

kwillia said:


> Pix, I watched a show on National Geographic last night about how humans created all dog breeds. Each dog breed was created to satisfy desired traits. I don't understand why you deny the purpose behind the creation of the pitbull...



So, did they mention the Pit Bull?  It wasn't bred to be a gaurd dog or even human aggressive.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> So, did they mention the Pit Bull?  It wasn't bred to be a gaurd dog or even human aggressive.




What was it bred for?


----------



## krazd_kat

tommyjones said:


> *as has the behavior of idiots........
> 
> i was watching a judge show the other day *



  That says it all...


----------



## pixiegirl

mAlice said:


> What was it bred for?



Bull baiting.

"Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.

Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals. "

Taken from Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


----------



## tommyjones

krazd_kat said:


> That says it all...



yeah, just ignore that part about a pack of pits killing a defensless poodle, and the 'responsible owner hadn't even made sure her fence was a fence.

the important part is that i was watching mindless afternoon TV.
:retard:


----------



## tommyjones

pixiegirl said:


> Bull baiting.
> 
> "Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.
> 
> Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals. "
> 
> Taken from Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup





oh, so they were breed for their bloodlust and viciousness..... now i can see how they wuld make great pets......


----------



## pixiegirl

mAlice said:


> As Baja already stated..."I'd like those defending the dogs to post more current data from a valid, non-biased source. "
> 
> At least those who don't care for the breed are coming up with stats.  Those defending the dogs aren't even coming up with old stats to back their arguments.



I did this a couple years ago for you guys.  The temperment testing stats.  The Pit Bulls were more sound than many other "popular" pet breeds.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> Bull baiting.
> 
> "Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.
> 
> Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals. "
> 
> Taken from Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup



I was reading this....Pit Bull Breed History ...just wanted to see what you'd come back with.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> I did this a couple years ago for you guys.  The temperment testing stats.  The Pit Bulls were more sound than many other "popular" pet breeds.




Okay.


----------



## mAlice

tommyjones said:


> oh, so they were breed for their bloodlust and viciousness..... now i can see how they wuld make great pets......



Pretty much.


----------



## cattitude

pixiegirl said:


> So, did they mention the Pit Bull?  It wasn't bred to be a gaurd dog or even human aggressive.




Just like the GSD.   Bred to herd/protect livestock.


----------



## Solja_Boy

kwillia said:


> Pix, I watched a show on National Geographic last night about how humans created all dog breeds. Each dog breed was created to satisfy desired traits. I don't understand why you deny the purpose behind the creation of the pitbull...




Exactly.  Pit bulls where bread to fight other animals.  However part of their breeding is to be non people agressive.  Being non people agressive is a very big part of the breed.

Pit bulls where originally bread to fight as  pack in a ring against a bull.  Once that was banned people started to fight them against each other.


On a side note I have a pit bull that is so mean it shares a bed with a cat and likes to lick little kids in the face.


----------



## CRoyal

mAlice said:


> Okay.



It's almost impossible to convince people one way or the other on this one. Education is all that can be done... for the ones that own the breed and for those that don't


----------



## tommyjones

cattitude said:


> Just like the GSD.   Bred to herd/protect livestock.



is this opposite day


----------



## tommyjones

Solja_Boy said:


> Exactly.  Pit bulls where bread to fight other animals.  However part of their breeding is to be non people agressive.  Being non people agressive is a very big part of the breed.
> 
> Pit bulls where originally bread to fight as  pack in a ring against a bull.  Once that was banned people started to fight them against each other.
> 
> 
> On a side note I have a pit bull that is so mean it shares a bed with a cat and likes to lick little kids in the face.



and i can show you labs that hate the water, one instance proves nothing. The stereotype is there for a reason, they earned it as a breed.


----------



## Baja28

Baja28 said:


> Thank you for dumbing it down for him.  He's impaired.



Pit bulls and your... 02-28-2008 02:17 PM You are a sorry excuse of a man! 

And you're a sore loser!!


----------



## pixiegirl

Breed Name,  Tested,  Passed,  Failed,  Percent 

AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER,  586,  494,  92,  84.3% 
BORDER COLLIE,  238,  191,  47,  80.3% 
BOXER,  381,  321,  60,  84.3% 
DACHSHUND (STANDARD SMOOTH)  47,  33,  14,  70.2% 
DOBERMAN PINSCHER  1487,  1146,  341,  77.1% 
GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG  2875,  2401,  474,  83.5% 
GOLDEN RETRIEVER,  703,  592,  111,  84.2% 
GREYHOUND,  63,  51,  12,  81.0% 
LABRADOR RETRIEVER,  705,  647,  58,  91.8% 

Taken from ATTS and stats were updated in Dec 2007.  :curtsy:  You can go through and look at all the stats for all breeds.  I don't have the patience to list anymore.  The American Pit Bull Terrier was thouroughly tested and stacked up very well, Again....


----------



## mAlice

CRoyal said:


> It's almost impossible to convince people one way or the other on this one. Education is all that can be done... for the ones that own the breed and for those that don't



I don't believe everything I read, but I do believe my personal experiences, and those of others.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> Breed Name,  Tested,  Passed,  Failed,  Percent
> 
> AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER,  586,  494,  92,  84.3%
> BORDER COLLIE,  238,  191,  47,  80.3%
> BOXER,  381,  321,  60,  84.3%
> DACHSHUND (STANDARD SMOOTH)  47,  33,  14,  70.2%
> DOBERMAN PINSCHER  1487,  1146,  341,  77.1%
> GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG  2875,  2401,  474,  83.5%
> GOLDEN RETRIEVER,  703,  592,  111,  84.2%
> GREYHOUND,  63,  51,  12,  81.0%
> LABRADOR RETRIEVER,  705,  647,  58,  91.8%
> 
> Taken from ATTS and stats were updated in Dec 2007.  :curtsy:  You can go through and look at all the stats for all breeds.  I don't have the patience to list anymore.  The American Pit Bull Terrier was thouroughly tested and stacked up very well, Again....




Link please.


----------



## cattitude

ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - Home


----------



## pixiegirl

mAlice said:


> Link please.



ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - About ATTS


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - About ATTS




Thanks.


----------



## Solja_Boy

tommyjones said:


> and i can show you labs that hate the water, one instance proves nothing. The stereotype is there for a reason, they earned it as a breed.



The getto trained dogs.  Which will attack anything has nothing to do with the breed.  Any dog that is constatly abused will act the same way.


----------



## tommyjones

Solja_Boy said:


> The getto trained dogs.  Which will attack anything has nothing to do with the breed.  Any dog that is constatly abused will act the same way.



you really have a problem with logic.....
just because you can train any dog to act like a pit, doesn't mean that pits haven't earned their reputaion as a result of breeding.

i can train a cat to fetch, but that doesn't mean a lab doesn't have an inate ability and need to retrieve.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> you really have a problem with logic.....
> just because you can train any dog to act like a pit, doesn't mean that pits haven't earned their reputaion as a result of breeding.
> 
> i can train a cat to fetch, but that doesn't mean a lab doesn't have an inate ability and need to retrieve.



So, are you implying that the APBT is trained to be human aggressive?

I have a pitbull and a sharpei. My sharpei is the one that people should worry about.

If you did a little research - human aggression is actually bred *out* of pits. If the pit was aggressive towards his master it was often times put down.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> So, are you implying that the APBT is trained to be human aggressive?
> 
> I have a pitbull and a sharpei. My sharpei is the one that people should worry about.
> 
> If you did a little research - human aggression is actually bred *out* of pits. If the pit was aggressive towards his master it was often times put down.



your late alright......

come back after you have read ALL the posts


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> your late alright......
> 
> come back after you have read ALL the posts



Meh.

Skimmed the post.

Just decided to chime in seeing you wanting to be all logical and stuff...


----------



## Ken King

Stats by Merritt Clifton - http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog Attacks 1982 to 2006 Clifton.pdf


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> Meh.
> 
> Skimmed the post.
> 
> Just decided to chime in seeing you wanting to be all logical and stuff...



yeah, thats about what i expect from pit owners, doing a lot less than all the homework.....


----------



## krazd_kat

LateApex said:


> If you did a little research - human aggression is actually bred *out* of pits. If the pit was aggressive towards his master it was often times put down.



This is the part they refuse to listen to, instead they prefer to focus on the small minority that does the damage.  They would rather ban the entire breed than admit that it's an OWNER problem.

If they ban the pit bulls it will be a different breed in a few years.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> yeah, thats about what i expect from pit owners, doing a lot less than all the homework.....



Mmkay...

Now we're on to something.

So, what type of homework should one do?

I'm sorry that your feeble little mind can't comprehend the fact nurture vs nature extends to the canine world as well...

Please educate me...


----------



## tommyjones

krazd_kat said:


> This is the part they refuse to listen to, instead they prefer to focus on the small minority that does the damage.  They would rather ban the entire breed than admit that it's an OWNER problem.
> 
> If they ban the pit bulls it will be a different breed in a few years.




its the publics problem when the public is being attacked. if they only attack the owners and their families nobody would have a problem.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> Mmkay...
> 
> Now we're on to something.
> 
> So, what type of homework should one do?
> 
> I'm sorry that your feeble little mind can't comprehend the fact nurture vs nature extends to the canine world as well...
> 
> Please educate me...



if you have to ask, but already have a pit you are part of the problem.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> its the publics problem when the public is being attacked. if they only attack the owners and their families nobody would have a problem.



Umm.. Mister logic and homework doing man..

You do realize that using your logic ALL dogs should bear the same scrutiny because it is a CERTIFIABLE fact that all breeds have at one time or another attacked someone...


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> if you have to ask, but already have a pit you are part of the problem.



Ah.

Now I see.

You're one of those.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> Umm.. Mister logic and homework doing man..
> 
> You do realize that using your logic ALL dogs should bear the same scrutiny because it is a CERTIFIABLE fact that all breeds have at one time or another attacked someone...



look retard, we went over this a bunch in the last 30 pages, you can go back and look up the responses to your idiotic comments.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> look retard, we went over this a bunch in the last 30 pages, you can go back and look up the responses to your idiotic comments.



Heh.

How predictable.

LateApex's guide to being an internet baller:

1) Try to belittle others using flawed logic.

- Check

2) When finally called on it degenerate and resort to name calling.

Retard.

Coming from some dude that is probably sitting behind a counter asking if you want matches with your cigs...


----------



## mv_princess

> The traditional approach to dangerous dog legislation is to allow "one
> free bite," at which point the owner is warned. On second bite, the dog
> is killed. The traditional approach, however, patently does not apply in
> addressing the threats from pit bull terriers, Rottweilers, and wolf
> hybrids. In more than two-thirds of the cases I have logged, the
> life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous
> behavior by the animal in question. Children and elderly people were almost
> always the victims.



Now how is that fair...


----------



## mv_princess

tommyjones said:


> if you have to ask, but already have a pit you are part of the problem.


What part of owning a pit is the problem?


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

tommyjones said:


> as has the behavior of idiots........
> 
> 
> i was watching a judge show the other day where a lady had 3 pits (all were the nicest dogs you would ever meet), that 'escaped' from her yard and killed the neighbors poodle. The lady didn't think she was responsible because the fence that separated the two yards had never been completly secured, so it was an act of god. Funny thing, it was her freaking fence.........
> 
> this idiot was putting her dogs out for hours at a time in a yard that was only partially fenced. Its just too bad animal control couldn't have put down the onwer instead of the pits.



I thought you stated the dogs didn't get put down for killing other animals??


----------



## tommyjones

SouthernMdRocks said:


> I thought you stated the dogs didn't get put down for killing other animals??



i never said that.  i said that not all pits get put down on their first bite. you have to read in context..........

besides, many times when a dog attacks it is put down at the owner's request. All of a suden they start to see the liability when someone is in the hospital, or a cop is standing in their doorway talking to them about the neighbors dead dog.


----------



## LateApex

People..

Mr Logic only regurgitates what he see's/reads.

How about we get rid of ALL alcohol because drunk drivers kill thousands each year...

How about we get rid of all guns because people are shot every day...


----------



## Solja_Boy

krazd_kat said:


> If they ban the pit bulls it will be a different breed in a few years.



They are already banned in PG county.  I saw somthing on TV a while ago where they were taking well behaved pits away from there owners.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> People..
> 
> Mr Logic only regurgitates what he see's/reads.
> 
> How about we get rid of ALL alcohol because drunk drivers kill thousands each year...
> 
> How about we get rid of all guns because people are shot every day...



Hey everybody, Mr latetotheparty thinks a dog with its own mind in on the same level with an inanimate object. 

try reading the posts (i know its harder than just spouting off a bunch of BS), you'll see i have described my personal experiences plenty.


----------



## mAlice

This would be much more interesting if you two would stop tearing at each other's throats like a couple of rabid pit bulls.


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

tommyjones said:


> no they aren't. And they definatley aren't if all they do is kill a neighbors pet.



Hmmmm! I read that out of context?


----------



## mAlice

Ken King said:


> Stats by Merritt Clifton - http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog Attacks 1982 to 2006 Clifton.pdf




Hopefully I'll find time for this, and pixie's link tonight.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> Hey everybody, Mr latetotheparty thinks a dog with its own mind in on the same level with an inanimate object.
> 
> try reading the posts (i know its harder than just spouting off a bunch of BS), you'll see i have described my personal experiences plenty.



Learn2Comprehend...

Blame the deed. Not the breed.

The drunk driver kills people - not the alcohol.
The person holding the gun kills people - not the gun.

Any dog that isn't properly trained can be untrustworthy.

Why do they use german shepards as police dogs? Yes, because of their strength and intelligence. But, also because it's easier to train them to be human aggressive.

You would think they would use a breed that is a killer like pitbulls, huh?

It's NOT in pitbull's nature to be human aggressive.


----------



## tommyjones

SouthernMdRocks said:


> Hmmmm! I read that out of context?



pretty much....

you see you had to go back three or four more posts to see we were talking about this :


			
				MV said:
			
		

> But still don't understand why any dog (*not just pits*) Shouldn't be put down after a bite?!


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> Learn2Comprehend...
> 
> Blame the deed. Not the breed.
> 
> The drunk driver kills people - not the alcohol.
> The person holding the gun kills people - not the gun.
> 
> Any dog that isn't properly trained can be untrustworthy.
> 
> Why do they use german shepards as police dogs? Yes, because of their strength and intelligence. But, also because it's easier to train them to be human aggressive.
> 
> You would think they would use a breed that is a killer like pitbulls, huh?
> 
> It's NOT in pitbull's nature to be human aggressive.




the difference is that you are in COMPLETE CONTROL of a gun or a car.
A dog has a mind of its own. They are not the same.
I have NEVER heard a story about a gun walking nextdoor whole the owner was gone and killing the neighbor. Also never heard a story about a pack of cars driving down the highway killing anyone


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

tommyjones said:


> pretty much....
> 
> you see you had to go back three or four more posts to see we were talking about this :



I did just to make sure but I still came to the same conclusion! You state that pitts are not put down when they only kill another pet/animal. Nevermind, doesn't matter! Maybe I'm missing something.


----------



## mv_princess

mv_princess said:


> The traditional approach to dangerous dog legislation is to allow "one
> free bite," at which point the owner is warned. On second bite, the dog
> is killed. The traditional approach, however, patently does not apply in
> addressing the threats from pit bull terriers, Rottweilers, and wolf
> hybrids. In more than two-thirds of the cases I have logged, the
> life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous
> behavior by the animal in question. Children and elderly people were almost
> always the victims.
> 
> 
> 
> Now how is that fair...
Click to expand...




SouthernMdRocks said:


> I thought you stated the dogs didn't get put down for killing other animals??





tommyjones said:


> i never said that.  i said that not all pits get put down on their first bite. you have to read in context..........
> 
> besides, many times when a dog attacks it is put down at the owner's request. All of a suden they start to see the liability when someone is in the hospital, or a cop is standing in their doorway talking to them about the neighbors dead dog.



Explain.


----------



## tommyjones

SouthernMdRocks said:


> I did just to make sure but I still came to the same conclusion! You state that pitts are not put down when they only kill another pet/animal. Nevermind, doesn't matter! *Maybe I'm missing something*.



the first step is recognizing you have a problem


----------



## pixiegirl

mAlice said:


> Hopefully I'll find time for this, and pixie's link tonight.



From the report:

"Reports are logged as received, and the current log is printed out as
requested. Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts
since 1982, this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified
breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others
with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. Due to the exclusion
of dogs whose breed type may be uncertain, this is by no means a complete
list of fatal and otherwise serious dog attacks."

From the front page of the website:

Meet your host:
 Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog. His clients include children and adults throughout the United States. 

Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free. Click here to write to him and receive his personal reply within hours (his E-mail address is kphillips@dogbitelaw.com). Reporters seeking interviews or information are welcome to click here.

Oh no...  It's not biased or anything...


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

tommyjones said:


> the first step is recognizing you have a problem



Great, does that mean you're on the road to recovery!


----------



## Ken King

pixiegirl said:


> From the report:
> 
> "Reports are logged as received, and the current log is printed out as
> requested. Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts
> since 1982, this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified
> breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others
> with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets. Due to the exclusion
> of dogs whose breed type may be uncertain, this is by no means a complete
> list of fatal and otherwise serious dog attacks."
> 
> From the front page of the website:
> 
> Meet your host:
> Attorney Kenneth Phillips is the author of this web site. He has a unique law practice: he represents only people who have been bitten by a dog. His clients include children and adults throughout the United States.
> 
> Mr. Phillips welcomes E-mail from visitors to this website, especially dog bite victims and their families. He responds personally and answers questions for free. Click here to write to him and receive his personal reply within hours (his E-mail address is kphillips@dogbitelaw.com). Reporters seeking interviews or information are welcome to click here.
> 
> Oh no...  It's not biased or anything...


The stats were from a report developed by Merritt Clifton of Animal People.   ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide.  They are animal friendly and think specific breed banning is inappropriate.  And the stats aren't a decade old as you griped about earlier.  The fact that the report was obtained from a lawyer's site dedicated to those that suffered injury isn't relevent to the facts of the information in the report.

Now looking at the numbers of attacks by breed one would see that Pits far outnumber those of the other breeds listed but the circumstances of how the maulings/killings took place aren't given nor the numbers of each breed owned nor any information about the owners and the animals upbringing/environment.  It is just a statistical report.

I own a breed that has a high incident rate and love him immensely but as he is an animal I don't trust him blindly as he is simply that, an animal.


----------



## krazd_kat

Ken King said:


> Now looking at the numbers of attacks by breed one would see that Pits far outnumber those of the other breeds listed but *the circumstances of how the maulings/killings took place aren't given nor the numbers of each breed owned nor any information about the owners and the animals upbringing/environment.*  It is just a statistical report.
> 
> I own a breed that has a high incident rate and love him immensely but as he is an animal I don't trust him blindly as he is simply that, an animal.



And THAT is what makes a responsible owner.  They realize and recognize the potential the animal has and takes steps to keep it and the public safe.


----------



## Baja28

Ok, I see we have a few late comers to the thread who obviously didn't read it or lack reading comprehension.  

Pit owners are like democrats refusing to acknowledge the facts and running on emotion.

So to all who ignore the research, won't look at the pics of the mauled children and fail to provide evidence to the contrary, I say to you: _"May your children and the children of others stay safe around your unpredictable and bloodthirsty dogs."_

Kids rely on adults to look out for them, I feel sorry for the kids whose parents who need looking after.

Adios and I hope I'm not reading about your children in the news.


----------



## LateApex

Baja28 said:


> Ok, I see we have a few late comers to the thread who obviously didn't read it or lack reading comprehension.
> 
> Pit owners are like democrats refusing to acknowledge the facts and running on emotion.
> 
> So to all who ignore the research, won't look at the pics of the mauled children and fail to provide evidence to the contrary, I say to you: _"May your children and the children of others stay safe around your unpredictable and bloodthirsty dogs."_
> 
> Kids rely on adults to look out for them, I feel sorry for the kids whose parents who need looking after.
> 
> Adios and I hope I'm not reading about your children in the news.



And people against APBT's are like the bible thumping conservatives. Set in their ways because they are blinded by their holier than though attitude.

Listen.. It's your opinion. I can accept that.

But, generalizing, and calling the breed as a whole, blood thirsty dogs is just plain idiotic.

You seem to forget that at the time of WWI pitbulls were the most popular dog - because of their loyalty and jovial nature.

People are responsible for breeding the dog into what it is in the media today. I don't discount that. But, there are responsible breeders and owners that have no problems with these dogs.


----------



## LateApex

Baja28 said:


> fail to provide evidence to the contrary...



I have proof right here that there are APBT's with no problems.

My dog.

And my families dog.

My friends dog.

Um.. That enough?


----------



## pixiegirl

Ken King said:


> The stats were from a report developed by Merritt Clifton of Animal People.   ANIMAL PEOPLE is the leading independent newspaper providing original investigative coverage of animal protection worldwide.  They are animal friendly and think specific breed banning is inappropriate.  And the stats aren't a decade old as you griped about earlier.  The fact that the report was obtained from a lawyer's site dedicated to those that suffered injury isn't relevent to the facts of the information in the report.
> 
> Now looking at the numbers of attacks by breed one would see that Pits far outnumber those of the other breeds listed but the circumstances of how the maulings/killings took place aren't given nor the numbers of each breed owned nor any information about the owners and the animals upbringing/environment.  It is just a statistical report.
> 
> I own a breed that has a high incident rate and love him immensely but as he is an animal I don't trust him blindly as he is simply that, an animal.



Ok Ken.  I'll see that and raise you the following from that very same site:

The conclusions that we draw about dangerous canines is derived from what we know about them. Our information is from media accounts, government pronouncements and studies, organizations such as the Centers for Disease Control, and experts who have conducted original research as well as reviews of other materials. *Unfortunately, however, there are serious gaps in the data on this subject, leaving our assumptions and conclusions open to doubt. *

Three commonly accepted sources of information about canine homicides are the CDC, Merritt Clifton (editor of Animal People), and Karen Delise (author of Fatal Dog Attacks). However, *none of their figures agree.* This is largely because of the difficulties involved in gathering dog bite statistics. When the CDC reported on canine homicides, one of their methods of ensuring accuracy was to eliminate all death reports that did not appear in LexisNexis. When Delise did her study, she included all homicides which were confirmed in other reliable ways, such as by interviews and police files, and arrived at a figure that was 100 deaths higher than the CDC. Clifton's study includes both the USA and Canada, and is derived from newspaper accounts as well as his review of photographs and files. 

Delise illustrates the information problem in the following graphic way (quoted from E-mail by her to Attorney Kenneth Phillips): 

Consider five fatal attacks included in the CDC statistics. 

A man was bitten in the forearm by a Pit bull. The bite was not serious but introduced into the wound was a virulent and fast spreading bacteria. The man died 4 days later from this virulent bacterial infection.

A teenage girl give birth to a infant, distraught and frightened, she tossed the hours-old infant into a neighboring-junk-strewn yard where two Pit bulls resided. The dogs killed the newborn.

A German shepherd mixed breed dog went into a bedroom, lifted a newborn out of a crib and carried the infant (by the head) into the living room  where the adults were seated.

A man restrains his girlfriend, while ordering his Pit bull to repeatedly attack her.  He is eventually convicted of murder and is serving a 20-year sentence.

An elderly man attempts to stop his German Shepherd dog from fence fighting with his neighbor's dog, the dog turns on his owner, severely mauling him, inflicting fatal head and neck wounds.

The CDC was right, in that five people died as a result of a dog bite. But were all these bites the result of aggression? Were they the same type or level of aggression? Which behaviors initiated the attack, human or canine? So the number of deaths by dogs (as per the CDC) cannot be used to define aggression, or the aggression of certain breeds, as aggression is not defined or qualified. 

The disagreement among experts, and the dearth of recent statistics, were two of the reasons why an appellate court for the State of Ohio ruled in 2006 that a pair of breed-based dangerous dog laws were unconstitutional. City of Toledo v. Tellings, 5th Dist. No. L-04-1224, 2006-Ohio-975 (Ohio App. 2006). The supreme court of the state accepted this case for review in August 2006 (110 Ohio St.3d 1435). The court of appeals began its analysis by noting:

*Breed-specific laws were enacted because, in the past, courts and legislatures considered it to be a "well-known fact" that pit bulls are "unpredictable," "vicious" creatures owned only by "drug dealers, dog fighters, gang members," or other undesirable members of society. [Citing State v. Anderson (1991), 57 Ohio St.3d 168.] ... As scientific information advances and becomes available, courts have a duty to reconsider issues and make decisions which are supported by the actual evidence presented, instead of relying on "common knowledge" and opinion generated by newspaper sensationalism and hearsay, rather than accurate, scientific evidence. [Par.] As the evidence presented in this case demonstrates, previous cases involving "vicious dog" laws, especially from the late 1980's and early 1990's, relied on what is now outdated information which perpetuated a stereotypical image of pit bulls. ... The trial court noted that all the animal behaviorists from both parties testified that a pit bull, trained and properly socialized like other dogs, would not exhibit any more dangerous characteristics than any other breed of dog. After considering all the evidence before it, the trial court agreed, finding that pit bulls, as a breed, are not more dangerous than other breeds."

The court then stated that, 

Our review of the record reveals no current statistics since 1996 were presented to support the notion that pit bulls have continued to be involved in a "disproportionate number" of attacks or fatalities. In our view, despite its own factual finding to the contrary, the trial court improperly relied on an outdated, irrelevant, and inadmissible source of factual information to revive the "vicious" pit bull sentiment and justify the finding that the statutes and ordinance are constitutional.*


----------



## LateApex

Often times bites are reported by people who claim the dog looked like a pitbull as well. This can also skew the numbers...


----------



## pixiegirl

LateApex said:


>



You just love me for my big brain....


----------



## krazd_kat

Awesome post.


----------



## LateApex

I was attacked by a freaking lab retriever when I was young which required 7 stitches in my arm. This happened at the age of 8.

Till this day I hate those dogs.

But, now I realize it wasn't the dogs fault. It was the way it was treated.

The dog wasn't socialized. The dog was kept in a yard all day with no human contact. The dog was probably beaten.

Do I blame the breed as a whole?

No.

I blame the owner.

All dog owners have to be responsible. An cognizant of the fact that dogs are animals and need to be treated as such...


----------



## toppick08

Dang, this dog(thread) just keeps huntin'.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> I was attacked by a freaking lab retriever when I was young which required 7 stitches in my arm. This happened at the age of 8.
> 
> Till this day I hate those dogs.
> 
> But, now I realize it wasn't the dogs fault. It was the way it was treated.
> 
> The dog wasn't socialized. The dog was kept in a yard all day with no human contact. The dog was probably beaten.
> 
> Do I blame the breed as a whole?
> 
> No.
> 
> I blame the owner.
> 
> All dog owners have to be responsible. An cognizant of the fact that dogs are animals and need to be treated as such...




hears a couple of questions for ya.
would you still be hear had the dog been a pit? how many stitches do you estimate you would have need then?


----------



## cattitude

pixiegirl said:


> You just love me for my big brain....


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> hears a couple of questions for ya.
> would you still be hear had the dog been a pit? how many stitches do you estimate you would have need then?



How about if the dog was a German Shepard?

I wonder what would have happened if it was a Rottie...

What if it were a Bull Mastiff?

How about if it were a Cane Corso?

How about if it were a deranged drug dealing psychopath?

Your questions are irrelevant to my post.

It *wasn't* a pitbull.

It was a *Lab Ret.*.


----------



## pixiegirl

cattitude said:


>



I love him.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> How about if the dog was a German Shepard?
> 
> I wonder what would have happened if it was a Rottie...
> 
> What if it were a Bull Mastiff?
> 
> How about if it were a Cane Corso?
> 
> How about if it were a deranged drug dealing psychopath?
> 
> Your questions are irrelevant to my post.
> 
> It *wasn't* a pitbull.
> 
> It was a *Lab Ret.*.



it was a what if. 

and the fact that you dont want to answer proves a point. An attack by an equally vicious pit would have caused a lot more damage.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> it was a what if.
> 
> and the fact that you dont want to answer proves a point. An attack by an equally vicious pit would have caused a lot more damage.



It doesn't prove any point.

The facts at hand are:

It was a lab retriever that attacked me.

We can't definitively say whether an APBT would have caused more damage or not. We could argue physiology/anatomy all day. It still wouldn't prove a thing.

The point that was made, however, is that any dog, any breed can attack if not properly cared for...


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> It doesn't prove any point.
> 
> The facts at hand are:
> 
> It was a lab retriever that attacked me.
> 
> We can't definitively say whether an APBT would have caused more damage or not. We could argue physiology/anatomy all day. It still wouldn't prove a thing.
> 
> The point that was made, however, is that any dog, any breed can attack if not properly cared for...



and the other point that has been made ad nauseum is that pit bulls do indeed have a different physiology and that they were indeed breed to be vicious dogs who will latch on (i know the locking jaw isn't really all that locking) and relentlessly attack, not so much as a prey instinct but more as a kill instinct.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> and the other point that has been made ad nauseum is that pit bulls do indeed have a different physiology and that they were indeed breed to be vicious dogs who will latch on (i know the locking jaw isn't really all that locking) and relentlessly attack, not so much as a prey instinct but more as a kill instinct.



From this point forth your posts are completely irrelevant.

APBT's are no different physiologically OR anatomically than any other breed.

Do you actually read your posts before hitting submit?


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> From this point forth your posts are completely irrelevant.
> 
> APBT's are no *different physiologically OR anatomically* than any other breed.
> 
> Do you actually read your posts before hitting submit?



most retarded thing EVER!!!

while they are all dogs, the fact that we can separate out breeds means that they are physiologically different. Labs are different from pins, from collies, from pits.....

didn't do too well in science class did ya


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> most retarded thing EVER!!!
> 
> while they are all dogs, the fact that we can separate out breeds means that they are physiologically different. Labs are different from pins, from collies, from pits.....
> 
> didn't do too well in science class did ya



No.. That is not what separates species my friend...

Traits and characteristics is what separates them.

I took many many classes - was pre-med before settling on comp sci...

Physiology is the study of living organisms form and function - of how the body works.

All dogs are physiologically the same. If they originated from a single species - traits and characteristics may have changed over the course of evolution - but the fact remains their bodies behave exactly the same.

You didn't get much out of school did you?


----------



## LateApex

LateApex said:


> No.. That is not what separates species my friend...
> 
> Traits and characteristics is what separates them.
> 
> I took many many classes - was pre-med before settling on comp sci...
> 
> Physiology is the study of living organisms form and function - of how the body works.
> 
> All dogs are physiologically the same. If they originated from a single species - traits and characteristics may have changed over the course of evolution - but the fact remains their bodies behave exactly the same.
> 
> You didn't get much out of school did you?



addendum: genetic variability is what separates dogs or other species. But, they all have the same underlying physiological functions...


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> No.. That is not what separates species my friend...
> 
> Traits and characteristics is what separates them.
> 
> I took many many classes - was pre-med before settling on comp sci...
> 
> Physiology is the study of living organisms form and function - of how the body works.
> 
> All dogs are physiologically the same. If they originated from a single species - traits and characteristics may have changed over the course of evolution - but the fact remains their bodies behave exactly the same.
> 
> You didn't get much out of school did you?




wow, so a lab and a mini pin and a great dane all have the same phsiology, and the differences are NOT what separates the breeds?


maybe you should check into the AKC standards. they give very distinct physical descriptions of the breed standards. It is the PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES that are used to determine breed.


----------



## cattitude

tommyjones said:


> wow, so a lab and a mini pin and a great dane all have the same phsiology, and the differences are NOT what separates the breeds?
> 
> 
> maybe you should check into the AKC standards. they give very distinct physical descriptions of the breed standards. It is the PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES that are used to determine breed.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> wow, so a lab and a mini pin and a great dane all have the same phsiology, and the differences are NOT what separates the breeds?
> 
> 
> maybe you should check into the AKC standards. they give very distinct physical descriptions of the breed standards. It is the PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES that are used to determine breed.



Yes!!

Physical characteristics. Physical traits.

But, the underlying cellular principles remain the same.

Their muscles behave the same way. They see the same way. Taste the same way. Articulate body parts the same way. etc...

You really shouldn't post about things you don't know. It really makes you look foolish...


----------



## LateApex

cattitude said:


>



Please...

You all need to learn a little more before you spout off..


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> Yes!!
> 
> Physical characteristics. Physical traits.
> 
> But, the underlying cellular principles remain the same.
> 
> Their muscles behave the same way. They see the same way. Taste the same way. Articulate body parts the same way. etc...
> 
> You really shouldn't post about things you don't know. It really makes you look foolish...



keep splitin' hairs......


----------



## LateApex

Do you even know what physiology is?

All humans are the same.. Like all dogs.

Physiologically we are no different from each other.

Our physical traits and characteristics may be different.

i.e. eye color, skin color etc.

But we all are the same physiologically...


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> keep splitin' hairs......



I'm not splitting hairs.

I'm arguing your point of contention that they are physiologically different from other dogs.

You call me out about physiology and I'm trying to educate you so that in the future you don't sound like an idiot...


----------



## pixiegirl

LateApex said:


> Please...
> 
> You all need to learn a little more before you spout off..



I do believe she was laughing at Tommy, not you dear.


----------



## LateApex

pixiegirl said:


> I do believe she was laughing at Tommy, not you dear.



/removes foot from mouth


----------



## tommyjones

pixiegirl said:


> I do believe she was laughing at Tommy, not you dear.



i would have told him, but i thought it was funny he didn't get it.


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> I'm not splitting hairs.
> 
> I'm arguing your point of contention that they are physiologically different from other dogs.
> 
> You call me out about physiology and I'm trying to educate you so that in the future you don't sound like an idiot...



i was actually responding to you, but fine, PHYSICALLY they are different, and that is what presents the greater risk.

want to argue the actual point instead of gammar.....


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> i was actually responding to you, but fine, PHYSICALLY they are different, and that is what presents the greater risk.
> 
> want to argue the actual point instead of gammar.....



No.. You can't use that path of logic either.

Because, if you do, then you have to say that all athletic breeds are dangerous.

i.e. a bull mastiff, german sheppard, etc...

My college roommate had 2 mastiffs. One weighed 180 lbs and the other close to 200 lbs.

I guarantee you that those dogs would have eaten me or any one of you in one bite...

What makes the dogs different is the socialization, care, and training of dogs. ergo the owner. The onus of responsibility lies with all owners of dogs. All dogs have attacked someone/something. The breed isn't responsible. The humans that take care of them are...


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> No.. You can't use that path of logic either.
> 
> Because, if you do, then you have to say that all athletic breeds are dangerous.
> 
> i.e. a bull mastiff, german sheppard, etc...
> 
> My college roommate had 2 mastiffs. One weighed 180 lbs and the other close to 200 lbs.
> 
> I guarantee you that those dogs would have eaten me or any one of you in one bite...
> 
> What makes the dogs different is the socialization, care, and training of dogs. ergo the owner. The onus of responsibility lies with all owners of dogs. All dogs have attacked someone/something. The breed isn't responsible. The humans that take care of them are...



whatever....

again i say to you, If the dog that bit you when you were a kid would you still be here?

there is a difference between a lab and a pit. I contend that if a pit had attacked you with the same realtive viciousness, all other things being the same, the physical differences between the dogs means that the injuries suffered at the teeth of the pit would be worse.


now you can go back to arguing that pits are no more dangerous than mini pins......


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> whatever....
> 
> again i say to you, If the dog that bit you when you were a kid would you still be here?
> 
> there is a difference between a lab and a pit. I contend that if a pit had attacked you with the same realtive viciousness, all other things being the same, the physical differences between the dogs means that the injuries suffered at the teeth of the pit would be worse.
> 
> 
> now you can go back to arguing that pits are no more dangerous than mini pins......



Okay.

Now that's more clear and concise.

And, in all honesty I can't deny whether it would have caused more damage nor can I confirm it either.

More damage? Maybe. Lab Rets. aren't small dogs either. But who's to say what would have happened.

What did happen was it was one of those, often times considered, gentle breeds that attacked me.

My point at the time was that any dog can be vicious if not properly cared for.

Let me ask you this: what do you think would have happened if it were a Rott or German Sherpard or any other athletic dog...


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> Okay.
> 
> Now that's more clear and concise.
> 
> And, in all honesty I can't deny whether it would have caused more damage nor can I confirm it either.
> 
> More damage? Maybe. Lab Rets. aren't small dogs either. But who's to say what would have happened.
> 
> What did happen was it was one of those, often times considered, gentle breeds that attacked me.
> 
> My point at the time was that any dog can be vicious if not properly cared for.
> 
> Let me ask you this: what do you think would have happened if it were a Rott or German Sherpard or any other athletic dog...



i understand that the larger and more agressive the BREED the more potential for injury during an attack.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> i understand that the larger and more agressive the BREED the more potential for injury during an attack.



No.

What you should understand is:

An improperly trained, neglected, and unsocialized dog has the potential to be more aggressive and cause greater harm during an attack...


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> No.
> 
> What you should understand is:
> 
> An improperly trained, neglected, and unsocialized dog has the potential to be more aggressive and cause greater harm during an attack...



no, what you need to understand is that you are blind.


:fin:


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> no, what you need to understand is that you are blind.
> 
> 
> :fin:



LateApex's guide to internet futility:

1) Find a topic you know nothing about.
2) Argue facts that are incorrect.
3) Get corrected about number 2.
4) Get frustrated.

Sir, I'm sorry that I caused you distress and that having an intelligent argument is more than your feeble mind can handle...

Have a wonderful day!

kthxbai...


----------



## tommyjones

LateApex said:


> LateApex's guide to internet futility:
> 
> 1) Find a topic you know nothing about.
> 2) Argue facts that are incorrect.
> 3) Get corrected about number 2.
> 4) Get frustrated.
> 
> Sir, I'm sorry that I caused you distress and that having an intelligent argument is more than your feeble mind can handle...
> 
> Have a wonderful day!
> 
> kthxbai...



just becasue you can say the same lies the most times doesn't mean you ahev proven anything. I have posted my personal experiences, you choose to ignore.

i hope your dogs never eat anyone's child or pet.


----------



## LateApex

tommyjones said:


> just becasue you can say the same lies the most times doesn't mean you ahev proven anything. I have posted my personal experiences, you choose to ignore.
> 
> i hope your dogs never eat anyone's child or pet.



And I hope someone's Lab Ret. doesn't do the same thing...

Sounds idiotic doesn't it?


----------



## Solja_Boy

tommyjones said:


> just becasue you can say the same lies the most times doesn't mean you ahev proven anything. I have posted my personal experiences, you choose to ignore.
> 
> i hope your dogs never eat anyone's child or pet.



Ok so by your hypothetical logic.  If your bad experience had been with a lab and not a Pit.  Would a Lab be the dangerous breed that no one should have?

I have had several breeds of dog over the course of my life 1 lab, 3 German Shepards , 1 pit, 1 lab-akita mix.

None of the dogs have ever been aggressive or attacked a person.  I am firm believer that it is all how you raise the dog and that it has nothing to do with the breed.


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

LateApex said:


> And I hope someone's Lab Ret. doesn't do the same thing...
> 
> Sounds idiotic doesn't it?



Haven't you figured out that there is no sense in arguing here! Some peeps choose not to get it!!


----------



## krazd_kat

SouthernMdRocks said:


> Haven't you figured out that there is no sense in arguing here! Some peeps choose not to get it!!



I know, but I have to say something else....

In my experience with people that have been bitten by their own dog, be it pit or lab, and it wasn't a case of being startled or the animal in pain, most owner bites are due to the fact that the owner has raised the dog as an equal....

I don't know why my dog bit me, it was on the bed w/me, it was on the couch, I was hugging it on the floor.​
It's nice when you can treat a dog like that, but the fact is you can't treat them all that way.  I have certain dogs that I can play tug of war with and it's a great game, I have others that cannot play that game.  You need to know your dog and read it.  And the dog has to respect it's owners as the one that makes the rules.  (not to mention the socialization and being a responsible owner)

Some of you will never admit that their are good pits in the right hands, regardless of how many owners can prove you wrong.  You will continue to villify the breeds every chance you get - that's sad and shows a very closed mind.

I used to attend a number of Rottweiler gatherings and we would have 20 Rottweilers (with a number of these being rescue dogs, that we _didn't know their breeding_) in one building and not even that big of a building.  In the 4 years I went to them, we only had one issue and that was a new owner that didn't read the dog right.  People that knew we were there would come in the door, prepared to see a bunch of snarling beasts that we were fighting to hold on to... many older people changed their minds about Rottweilers after being invited to our gatherings.  Mind you they would never own one, but they were *open minded enough *to admit that these dogs can actually be marvelous companions.


----------



## Ken King

pixiegirl said:


> Ok Ken.  I'll see that and raise you the following from that very same site:
> 
> The conclusions that we draw about dangerous canines is derived from what we know about them. Our information is from media accounts, government pronouncements and studies, organizations such as the Centers for Disease Control, and experts who have conducted original research as well as reviews of other materials. *Unfortunately, however, there are serious gaps in the data on this subject, leaving our assumptions and conclusions open to doubt. *
> 
> Three commonly accepted sources of information about canine homicides are the CDC, Merritt Clifton (editor of Animal People), and Karen Delise (author of Fatal Dog Attacks). However, *none of their figures agree.* This is largely because of the difficulties involved in gathering dog bite statistics. When the CDC reported on canine homicides, one of their methods of ensuring accuracy was to eliminate all death reports that did not appear in LexisNexis. When Delise did her study, she included all homicides which were confirmed in other reliable ways, such as by interviews and police files, and arrived at a figure that was 100 deaths higher than the CDC. Clifton's study includes both the USA and Canada, and is derived from newspaper accounts as well as his review of photographs and files.
> 
> Delise illustrates the information problem in the following graphic way (quoted from E-mail by her to Attorney Kenneth Phillips):
> 
> Consider five fatal attacks included in the CDC statistics.
> 
> A man was bitten in the forearm by a Pit bull. The bite was not serious but introduced into the wound was a virulent and fast spreading bacteria. The man died 4 days later from this virulent bacterial infection.
> 
> A teenage girl give birth to a infant, distraught and frightened, she tossed the hours-old infant into a neighboring-junk-strewn yard where two Pit bulls resided. The dogs killed the newborn.
> 
> A German shepherd mixed breed dog went into a bedroom, lifted a newborn out of a crib and carried the infant (by the head) into the living room  where the adults were seated.
> 
> A man restrains his girlfriend, while ordering his Pit bull to repeatedly attack her.  He is eventually convicted of murder and is serving a 20-year sentence.
> 
> An elderly man attempts to stop his German Shepherd dog from fence fighting with his neighbor's dog, the dog turns on his owner, severely mauling him, inflicting fatal head and neck wounds.
> 
> The CDC was right, in that five people died as a result of a dog bite. But were all these bites the result of aggression? Were they the same type or level of aggression? Which behaviors initiated the attack, human or canine? So the number of deaths by dogs (as per the CDC) cannot be used to define aggression, or the aggression of certain breeds, as aggression is not defined or qualified.
> 
> The disagreement among experts, and the dearth of recent statistics, were two of the reasons why an appellate court for the State of Ohio ruled in 2006 that a pair of breed-based dangerous dog laws were unconstitutional. City of Toledo v. Tellings, 5th Dist. No. L-04-1224, 2006-Ohio-975 (Ohio App. 2006). The supreme court of the state accepted this case for review in August 2006 (110 Ohio St.3d 1435). The court of appeals began its analysis by noting:
> 
> *Breed-specific laws were enacted because, in the past, courts and legislatures considered it to be a "well-known fact" that pit bulls are "unpredictable," "vicious" creatures owned only by "drug dealers, dog fighters, gang members," or other undesirable members of society. [Citing State v. Anderson (1991), 57 Ohio St.3d 168.] ... As scientific information advances and becomes available, courts have a duty to reconsider issues and make decisions which are supported by the actual evidence presented, instead of relying on "common knowledge" and opinion generated by newspaper sensationalism and hearsay, rather than accurate, scientific evidence. [Par.] As the evidence presented in this case demonstrates, previous cases involving "vicious dog" laws, especially from the late 1980's and early 1990's, relied on what is now outdated information which perpetuated a stereotypical image of pit bulls. ... The trial court noted that all the animal behaviorists from both parties testified that a pit bull, trained and properly socialized like other dogs, would not exhibit any more dangerous characteristics than any other breed of dog. After considering all the evidence before it, the trial court agreed, finding that pit bulls, as a breed, are not more dangerous than other breeds."
> 
> The court then stated that,
> 
> Our review of the record reveals no current statistics since 1996 were presented to support the notion that pit bulls have continued to be involved in a "disproportionate number" of attacks or fatalities. In our view, despite its own factual finding to the contrary, the trial court improperly relied on an outdated, irrelevant, and inadmissible source of factual information to revive the "vicious" pit bull sentiment and justify the finding that the statutes and ordinance are constitutional.*


Pixie,

You’ve trumped nothing as I too have read the information on that site and what you aren't getting is that I am in agreement that breed specific bans can't account for every animal of any given breed nor should they be enacted and the stereotype associated with pits is just that - a generalization not supported by facts.  With that said I do see that the pit breed has been reported in more cases and this, to me, is a flag that should be used for one thing and one thing only, that being that *these dogs aren’t for everyone*.  Pits are strong and powerful animals that demand a vigilant and protective owner that controls the animal so that they are not in a position to cause damage to others.

While I believe that a dog is as good as its owner we know that there are many owners not worthy of the breed, we know that some breeding has led to a sub-class of aggressive dogs within the breed, and we know that when a pit attacks it isn’t the simple nipping type bite.  Now, on the other side of the coin, those that raise and treat their dogs properly, socialize the animal, provide adequate control over the animal and are worthy of the breed can own and raise a fine animal, there is no doubt that there are some very damn nice pits out there.  And this is true for many breeds and not just the pits.

I provided the only current data I could find simply because you disputed and seemingly disregarded data that was a decade old and the data provided shows that pits cause greater damage than most other breeds.  What the data doesn’t show were the conditions and circumstances surrounding the attacks reported.  Thus it shouldn’t be used to support any form of ban, but for informational purposes it does hold value in pointing out, as I have said above, that the breed isn’t for everyone and that those that chose to own these type animals need to exercise greater care and control over the animals to protect not only themselves but all others as well.


----------



## pixiegirl

Ken King said:


> Pixie,
> 
> You’ve trumped nothing as I too have read the information on that site and what you aren't getting is that I am in agreement that breed specific bans can't account for every animal of any given breed nor should they be enacted and the stereotype associated with pits is just that - a generalization not supported by facts.  With that said I do see that the pit breed has been reported in more cases and this, to me, is a flag that should be used for one thing and one thing only, that being that *these dogs aren’t for everyone*.  Pits are strong and powerful animals that demand a vigilant and protective owner that controls the animal so that they are not in a position to cause damage to others.
> 
> While I believe that a dog is as good as its owner we know that there are many owners not worthy of the breed, we know that some breeding has led to a sub-class of aggressive dogs within the breed, and we know that when a pit attacks it isn’t the simple nipping type bite.  Now, on the other side of the coin, those that raise and treat their dogs properly, socialize the animal, provide adequate control over the animal and are worthy of the breed can own and raise a fine animal, there is no doubt that there are some very damn nice pits out there.  And this is true for many breeds and not just the pits.
> 
> I provided the only current data I could find simply because you disputed and seemingly disregarded data that was a decade old and the data provided shows that pits cause greater damage than most other breeds.  What the data doesn’t show were the conditions and circumstances surrounding the attacks reported.  Thus it shouldn’t be used to support any form of ban, but for informational purposes it does hold value in pointing out, as I have said above, that the breed isn’t for everyone and that those that chose to own these type animals need to exercise greater care and control over the animals to protect not only themselves but all others as well.



But ken, the data you provided was in fact unreliable at best since none of the 3 "authorities" can agree on numbers.  I agree and always have that a pit bull or any other powerful headstrong dog is NOT for everyone.  What I disagree with is that they are any MORE dangerous than the others.


----------



## mAlice

pixiegirl said:


> What I disagree with is that they are any MORE dangerous than the others.



Okay.  You win.


----------



## Ken King

pixiegirl said:


> But ken, the data you provided was in fact unreliable at best since none of the 3 "authorities" can agree on numbers.  I agree and always have that a pit bull or any other powerful headstrong dog is NOT for everyone.  What I disagree with is that they are any MORE dangerous than the others.


Unreliable, show me three different groups collecting data on the same subject that does agree.  What you will find in the differing data is that in all three sources the pits/pit types do account for the greatest number of severe injuries and deaths.  Why, because they are strong powerful animals and once in the attack mode they don't quit.  For that reason I see them as more dangerous then other dogs, but not an absolute danger and thus they are not for your average owner.


----------



## Solja_Boy

pixiegirl said:


> What I disagree with is that they are any MORE dangerous than the others.



I would agree that pit is more dangerous than some other breeds of dogs.  Simply based on size and strength.  A pit could defiantly do more damage than a Dachshund could.  

However I do not think a pit is any more prone to attack than any other breed of dog.


----------



## Cowgirl

Solja_Boy said:


> I would agree that pit is more dangerous than some other breeds of dogs.  Simply based on size and strength.  I pit could defiantly do more damage than a Dotson could.
> 
> However I do not think a pit is any more prone to attack than any breed of dog.



What is a Dotson?


----------



## LateApex

Cowgirl said:


> What is a Dotson?



I'm pretty sure he meant:

Daschund also known as the weiner dog..


----------



## Solja_Boy

LateApex said:


> I'm pretty sure he meant:
> 
> Daschund also known as the weiner dog..?



Yea thats it


----------



## SouthernMdRocks

Cowgirl said:


> What is a Dotson?



It's a weiner dog...which by the way I still have scars from down my one forearm.


----------



## Lacie Girl

*A few facts about Pit Bulls*



*A message from the experts: *

"Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.” *American Veterinarian Association Task Force on Canine Aggression and Human-Canine Interactions* 

“Statements concerning pit bulls ‘chewing’ with their molars while holding with their canine teeth and other statements which have pit bulls biting differently or more powerfully than other breeds have been made by people very unfamiliar with how a dog’s jaw structure works. After 30 years as a canine aggression expert, schutzhund trial decoy, expert witness on dog bites for the Seattle and Tacoma police departments, I concur with the conclusions reached by *Dr. Brady Barr working with the National Geographic Society’s* bite study which showed the pit bull’s bite to be unremarkable when compared to other breeds.” *Diane Jessup, international speaker on canine aggression*

*MYTH: Pit Bulls are inherently dangerous*

If you think so, then consider the facts: In 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 according to the American Temperament Test Society breed statistics, the "pit bull" (American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire and Staffordshire bull) out performed the golden retriever, a breed noted for its gentle temperament. 

*MYTH: "It's all how you raise them!"*

Some people assume - incorrectly - that a dog's temperament is primarily shaped by how it is raised. You have heard these people say "It's all how you raise them!" 

This statement is not only inaccurate, it is unfair to the animal, which, in reality, is influenced primarily by its genetics. You cannot raise a border collie to be a champion fighting dog, and you cannot raise a cocker spaniel to work rough stock. A retriever won't win at the dog track, and a greyhound won't lead the blind. Environment can and does influence a dog's behavior in so much as certain traits can be encouraged or discouraged, but a genetically shy or aggressively unsound dog cannot be "fixed" no matter how much that high priced "behaviorist" tries to convince you that it can. 

It is also incorrect to assume that because a dog can be quarrelsome with other dogs that he is "vicious" and will attack children. Many working breeds have antipathy towards other animals - coonhounds go mad at the sight of a raccoon, foxhounds will not hesitate to tear a dog-like fox to shreds, greyhounds and other sight hounds live to chase and maul rabbits and will eagerly kill cats. They are still used today to chase down and slaughter coyotes. Even the ever-friendly beagle will "murder" a rabbit, given the chance. And yet the greyhound, coon and foxhound and beagle are among the friendliest of breeds towards humans. And it is the same with the well bred pit bull. 

*MYTH: The pit bull was bred for dog fighting only.* 

Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.

Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals. 

*My challenge to you:*

I currently own 3 APBT's and will never go back to another breed.  My dogs have shown me undying loyalty and have only ever expressed their love for life.  

All of my dogs are therapy dogs that I take to the local nursing homes to visit with the elderly and sick.  It is funny that none of these people are scared of them because they are pit bulls.  There is also nothing more rewarding then watching someone pat the side of their bed to invite one of my dogs to join them.  Wacthing my dog gently climb into bed and lay down beside this stranger, they carefully give their new best friend the same loving kisses that they would give to me.

I challenge everyone who holds a fear for Pit Bulls, regardless of the reason, to meet at least one of my dogs and then look me in the eye and honestly tell me that you still feel the same about Pit Bulls.  

PS The pit bull in the middle (white and red brindle) is currently in training as a Search & Rescue dog.


----------



## toppick08

Lacie Girl said:


> *A message from the experts: *
> 
> "Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.” *American Veterinarian Association Task Force on Canine Aggression and Human-Canine Interactions*
> 
> “Statements concerning pit bulls ‘chewing’ with their molars while holding with their canine teeth and other statements which have pit bulls biting differently or more powerfully than other breeds have been made by people very unfamiliar with how a dog’s jaw structure works. After 30 years as a canine aggression expert, schutzhund trial decoy, expert witness on dog bites for the Seattle and Tacoma police departments, I concur with the conclusions reached by *Dr. Brady Barr working with the National Geographic Society’s* bite study which showed the pit bull’s bite to be unremarkable when compared to other breeds.” *Diane Jessup, international speaker on canine aggression*
> 
> *MYTH: Pit Bulls are inherently dangerous*
> 
> If you think so, then consider the facts: In 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 according to the American Temperament Test Society breed statistics, the "pit bull" (American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire and Staffordshire bull) out performed the golden retriever, a breed noted for its gentle temperament.
> 
> *MYTH: "It's all how you raise them!"*
> 
> Some people assume - incorrectly - that a dog's temperament is primarily shaped by how it is raised. You have heard these people say "It's all how you raise them!"
> 
> This statement is not only inaccurate, it is unfair to the animal, which, in reality, is influenced primarily by its genetics. You cannot raise a border collie to be a champion fighting dog, and you cannot raise a cocker spaniel to work rough stock. A retriever won't win at the dog track, and a greyhound won't lead the blind. Environment can and does influence a dog's behavior in so much as certain traits can be encouraged or discouraged, but a genetically shy or aggressively unsound dog cannot be "fixed" no matter how much that high priced "behaviorist" tries to convince you that it can.
> 
> It is also incorrect to assume that because a dog can be quarrelsome with other dogs that he is "vicious" and will attack children. Many working breeds have antipathy towards other animals - coonhounds go mad at the sight of a raccoon, foxhounds will not hesitate to tear a dog-like fox to shreds, greyhounds and other sight hounds live to chase and maul rabbits and will eagerly kill cats. They are still used today to chase down and slaughter coyotes. Even the ever-friendly beagle will "murder" a rabbit, given the chance. And yet the greyhound, coon and foxhound and beagle are among the friendliest of breeds towards humans. And it is the same with the well bred pit bull.
> 
> *MYTH: The pit bull was bred for dog fighting only.*
> 
> Fact: The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was.
> 
> Far back into history - too far for us to see - man had bred dogs for gripping large game like boar and bear. From these dogs developed the Butcher's Dog, or Bulldog. The bulldog was an animal from 35 to 80 pounds, long of leg, sturdy in body, athletic, with a strong head and muzzle. The pit bulls of today descend directly from these animals.
> 
> *My challenge to you:*
> 
> I currently own 3 APBT's and will never go back to another breed.  My dogs have shown me undying loyalty and have only ever expressed their love for life.
> 
> All of my dogs are therapy dogs that I take to the local nursing homes to visit with the elderly and sick.  It is funny that none of these people are scared of them because they are pit bulls.  There is also nothing more rewarding then watching someone pat the side of their bed to invite one of my dogs to join them.  Wacthing my dog gently climb into bed and lay down beside this stranger, they carefully give their new best friend the same loving kisses that they would give to me.
> 
> I challenge everyone who holds a fear for Pit Bulls, regardless of the reason, to meet at least one of my dogs and then look me in the eye and honestly tell me that you still feel the same about Pit Bulls.
> 
> PS The pit bull in the middle (white and red brindle) is currently in training as a Search & Rescue dog.



My old Chessie would maul your pits in a second....


----------



## Lacie Girl

Ken King said:


> Unreliable, show me three different groups collecting data on the same subject that does agree.  What you will find in the differing data is that in all three sources the pits/pit types do account for the greatest number of severe injuries and deaths.  Why, because they are strong powerful animals and once in the attack mode they don't quit.  For that reason I see them as more dangerous then other dogs, but not an absolute danger and thus they are not for your average owner.



There is no accurate statistical data on dog bites.  There is nothing in place to track dog bites in the US accurately.  Many dog bites are never reported to authorities.  

It must be understood that dog bite sta#tistics are nothing more than an estimate of incidents within a community. These reports in no way represent statistical data of bites for several reasons: 

The reports will inevitably show popular large breed dogs as the problem.  This is to be expected since large breeds can do more damage if they bite and due to popularity of certain breeds they have more individuals that could bite. 

I have not seen a report that does any analysis by breed, of population verses bites. To have an accurate statistical representation this has to be part of the analysis. 10 attacks by a Doberman relative to a total population of 10 dogs implies a different risk than 10 attacks by a Labrador relative to a population of 1000 dogs. (A community approach to dog bite prevention, AVMA task force report)  

Breed identification is often inaccurate with mixed breeds often identified as purebred. In many instances the identification is made by the victim or witnesses who are not trained in canine breeds or identification. Pit Bull identification is even less accurate than for other breeds like Dalmatians, Siberian Huskies, etc. For starters "Pit Bull" is not a breed. It’s a term used to group together a minimum of three different breeds of dog. In fact, there are 25+ breeds that look like a “pit bull” and are commonly identified incorrectly. 

The true number of bites isn’t known as many dog bites are not reported. 

The number of dogs by breed in any given area is unknown. Rarely are all dogs in an area properly licensed with the city/county. Therefore, there is no accurate way to determine statistics when all the factors are unknown or inaccurate. These reports don’t often consider multiple incidents by the same dog. 

Many studies show that a Pits skeletal/musculature is no different then any other dog.  Nor is their bite pressure disproportunate to their relative size.  

Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) – Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.

Here are the results of the dogs tested: 

Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg.  A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument.  The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested. 

In regards to a Pit being "in attack mode", this can, and is, true for any dog.  My yellow lab can not be called off of an attack when he is provoked.  For this reason I don't take my chances and ensure that he is muzzled when interacting with other dogs.  However, one of my APBT's has a VERY high prey drive and is always chasing after my friend's chickens.  I have no problem what-so-ever calling off of the chickens.  

Finally, I DO AGREE that Pit Bulls are not for the average owner.  Of course, I know some dog owners that shouldn't even own a fish let alone any type of dog.  Pit Bulls are a working breed and just like any of the working breed types should be viewed and handled accordingly.


----------



## Lacie Girl

toppick08 said:


> My old Chessie would maul your pits in a second....



As would many Chessie's that I have heard about.


----------



## Ken King

Lacie Girl,

I'll agree that there are no true statistics, no numerical comparison as to incidents versus population of a breed and that many dogs could be misidentified, hell the CDC quit tracking the issue in 1998.  So all we have are the newspaper reports to obtain any form of data and I suspect that some attacks never make the news.  But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs).  And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.

All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone.  And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do.  And of that some many are "pits/pit-type".  

What do you think of the US Supreme Court ruling concerning breed specific bans and the Ohio law that was ruled to be Constitutional?


----------



## Baja28

Ken King said:


> Lacie Girl,
> 
> I'll agree that there are no true statistics, no numerical comparison as to incidents versus population of a breed and that many dogs could be misidentified, hell the CDC quit tracking the issue in 1998.  So all we have are the newspaper reports to obtain any form of data and I suspect that some attacks never make the news.  But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs).  And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.
> 
> All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone.  And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do.  And of that some *most *are "pits/pit-type".
> 
> What do you think of the US Supreme Court ruling concerning breed specific bans and the Ohio law that was ruled to be Constitutional?


I gave up on em Ken.  They ignore all the available data, the news reports, the pictures I posted here.....  I feel for their kids.


I did make one correction to your post.


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## krazd_kat

Ken King said:


> But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs).  And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.
> 
> *All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone.  *And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do.  And of that some many are "pits/pit-type".



It seems like for the most part, the one's the love and defend the pits/pit-type and you Ken, seem to agree on a number of opinions.  Yes, these dogs are not for everyone.  Same as many breeds are not suitable for others or for others homes.  So we all agree on this.

I think what many of the pit lovers have an issue with is the statement that "MANY" are pits/pit-type.  That's where the disagreements on statistics are coming from.  The fact that there are probably more bites not being reported that we will never know about as well as maulings and severe attacks ending in deaths - they won't make news as they are not sensational.  They are not the PITS/PIT-TYPES and these newslines sell news, the others don't, so since the stats come from those sources, the numbers will forever remain skewed.  Did you realize that if you go to the doctor with a bite from your OWN dog, that many times THAT bite will NEVER be reported to the authorities.

What the pit lovers have an issue with is if you take 200 pits/pit-types (and I'm talking the pits from responsible owners, not the drug dealers or tough guy wannabes) and 200 other dogs, (not small ones, lets us labradors, GSD's, Huskys, Collies, and this size dog) according to all "temperment" statistics, the pit group is going to be the most stable and least likely to have any HUMAN agression.

But in the same breath, the responsible pit owners, recognize that if there is an issue, that our dogs CAN and very may cause more damage.  But that is only due to the fact that it is a more powerful dog.

Again, like you stress these dogs are NOT FOR EVERYONE.

Didn't you say you have a dog who's breed can have issues (I don't remember how you specifically said it)?  Obviously that breed isn't for everyone either.

Just don't let the government tell us what responsible owners can have as our companions.  The one's that need to be "governed" and "persecuted" are the owner's that allow and encourage ANY dog to be agressive and dangerous.  

That's the bottom line on how I feel about these dogs.  No one has to like my dog of choice, if I have invited someone to my home that is uncomfortable with my dogs I will remove my dogs to a different area of my home (I have gone through this for years with my Rottweilers), I will keep my dogs away from neighbors or the public that isn't comfortable with them, but when my dogs are secure in my home or yard, in my vehicle, or with me on a leash, remember that in a free society I DO have the right to own and love this breed, and we should always have the same freedoms and libertys as everyone other dog owner assumes is theirs.

Don't allow or encourage the government to make these dogs pay, when their only sin is being born.


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## Lacie Girl

Ken King said:


> Lacie Girl,
> 
> I'll agree that there are no true statistics, no numerical comparison as to incidents versus population of a breed and that many dogs could be misidentified, hell the CDC quit tracking the issue in 1998.  So all we have are the newspaper reports to obtain any form of data and I suspect that some attacks never make the news.  But for what has been obtained it is compelling that certain types do more damage (the bigger and stronger dogs).  And I'm not talking bites, I am talking severe maimings and killings.
> 
> All I have been saying is that those that own these type dogs must exercise greater control and that they aren't for everyone.  And yes I agree that some dogs will never attack at all, but there seems to be some that do.  And of that some many are "pits/pit-type".
> 
> What do you think of the US Supreme Court ruling concerning breed specific bans and the Ohio law that was ruled to be Constitutional?



It's only obvious that larger dogs are going to cause more damage then smaller dogs.  Common sense and logic dictate that.  If you are going to keep saying "pits/pit-type" then I quess the question is, what breeds are you encompassing in that very broad term?  If you are refering to the number of breeds that have a similar body style to the Pit Bulls (a term that only encompasses 3 breeds, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier) than you are saying the many *publicised* dog attacks are caused by over 25 breeds of dogs.  But how can you call that a fair judgement when many of the jack russell, pomeranian, beagle, etc bites aren't being reported.  People immediately jump to conclusions when someone gets a scratch caused by a larger dog and we all know how much the media tends to blow their stories up.  It is incredibly niave to take all media stories as fact.  

I'd like everyone to take a look at the below link and tell me how many times it takes you to correctly find the APBT.  I'm familiar with the breed and I didn't even get it right on the first time.  This is a good test to show each of us how unfamiliar we really are with what a pit bull looks like.

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull

Regarding BSL, I am very disappointed that people have become so closed minded regarding certain breeds of dogs.  Though most of this legislation is geared strictly towards pit bulls (I have read one from Ohio that talks only about aggressive dogs in general and then at the bottom simply states "all Pit Bulls" with no other description of definition).  But many dogs are now being included in BSL.  Besides the ones that most people think of as aggressive dogs, GSD, Rotts, Pits, Huskys, etc.  They are now starting to include family favorites such as Golden Retrivers and Labs.  At the rate they are going, you will no longer be allowed to own any dog.  

I personally have sworn to my dogs that I will never give them up if BSL comes knocking on our door.  I will up and move if that ever becomes the case.  My dogs are my best friends and have been loyal to me.  Just as I wouldn't give up my kids (if I had any) if someone said that kids were no longer allowed, I won't give up my dogs.  Nor will I subject them to constant muzzling outside the home (as many BSL laws are requiring, ie. Baltimore).


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## Lacie Girl

krazd_kat said:


> But in the same breath, the responsible pit owners, recognize that if there is an issue, that our dogs CAN and very may cause more damage.  But that is only due to the fact that it is a more powerful dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, this is where I beg to differ.  A pit bull can physically do no more damage then any other dog comparable in size.  Where people seem to get confused is when they say that the pit is stronger because it doesn't let go and is harder to dislodge.  This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the dogs jaw strength.  This all has to do with the dog's "game".
> 
> Game is a term used to describe an animals will power.  If a dog is willing to keep on doing what it is doing regardless of what is going on around it, then it is considered to have game.  This is one of the traits that made Pits such a prized animal for butchers.  As the butcher moved his bulls from market to slaughter, his dogs would help to control the animals until they got there.  If a bull became unruly, the dog would latch onto the bulls nose and hang on until the butcher was able to get the bull back under control.  The dog's game was prized because they would continue doing their job regardless of how much the bull thrashed them around.
> 
> A pit bull's "game" comes from the introduction of the terrier breeds.  You know those silly cartoon pictures that we all laugh at where you see a mailmen with a jack russell latched onto their rear end?  The jack that grabs on and holds has a lot of game.  This is what has made the terrier group such a popular working dog.
> 
> So don't be mad the next time a pit grabs onto the rope toy and tugs with you around with all he's got.  He's not being defiant by not giving it up.  It's just that more often then not, he wants it more then you.
Click to expand...


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## krazd_kat

Lacie Girl said:


> Once again, this is where I beg to differ.  A pit bull can physically *do no more damage then any other dog comparable in size.*  Where people seem to get confused is when they say that the pit is stronger because it doesn't let go and is harder to dislodge.  This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the dogs jaw strength.  This all has to do with the dog's "game".



Lacie Girl, you have beautiful dogs and it's obvious that you have worked with them and continue to make them great ambassadors.

But even I do not believe that statement.  I said nothing about not letting go and making it harder to dislodge, although I had a heck of a fight between an 8 month old pit mix puppy and an adult catahoula that even with two people trying to break up this fight and trying to shove a metal cage piece between the two dogs as well as puling up hind legs, I didn't think we would ever get the puppy off the other dog.

Call it "game" if you like but if that is what makes them so determined, then the general public has absolutely no business with a pit that exhibits "game".  Even if it is a responsible owner, they need to be aware and admit that these dogs can and sometimes do present a larger danger to the public, even if it's due to the publics ignorance around these dogs.  Please note that when I say "public", I am referring to the publics animals as I do not believe that human agression is often displayed by a well balanced pit.

I have a foster dog that has no issues with other dogs, can and will walk by them without any display of agression, UNTIL the other dog invades his space and gets growly in his face, then he will growl and make it plain to the other to back down.  And it never fails that when that happens, my dog is immediately labeled as the "dog agressive pit", while it was thier dog that they were failing to control that caused the issue.

If you look at my site Second Hope Rescue you will see how many pits we currently have in our program and how many we have already adopted as well as the other strong breeds.  But I will not adopt one of these dogs to someone that refuses to believe what they are capable of and if the only exercise these dogs are going to get is a dog park, I will not adopt under those circumstances either.  I do not believe that any of these dogs need to be at a dog park, no matter what happens it will ALWAYS be the pits, rotts, mastiffs, etc., fault and another black mark on their breeds.

I NEVER thought when I started doing rescue that I would become such a huge pit advocate, in fact I had never given them much thought except to make sure when I saw one in public that my dog wasn't in it's space.  After working with them and getting close to them at the shelter I was a convert and will now do my best to save as many as I can.  My group is also one of the few in this area that can or will help one over the age of 1, and that includes almost all the strong breeds (unless it's a breed rescue).


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## Lacie Girl

krazd_kat said:


> But even I do not believe that statement.  I said nothing about not letting go and making it harder to dislodge...
> 
> Call it "game" if you like but if that is what makes them so determined, then the general public has absolutely no business with a pit that exhibits "game".



Hi Krazd_kat!  I know that you didn't mention a pits ability to hang on and my response was a misunderstanding of what you said.  I apologise for that.    You had mentioned that they are a more powerful breed and I took that to mean the common misconception that Pits have stronger/locking jaws and more bite power then the average dog which is totally not the case.  

Let me clarify the term "game" a little bit.  "Game" is a technical term that is used amongst many breeds that possess this characteristic.  It does not only refer to the dogs ability to bite and hold.  It is used to define any dog's determination to carry on.  This could mean that a competitive weight pull dog that keeps trying to pull even though the weight is beyond them has game.  A search and rescue dog that continues to search even though they are exhausted is said to have game.  It is just a term to describe dogs with extreme determination (which happens to be prevelent amongst terriers).

It is sad when our dogs are minding their own business and when approached by another dog are forced to take the defensive and be labeled by uneducated people as aggressive.  It is these bad stigmas that I work so hard to prevent and educate people on the true breed of the Pit Bull.

I said right off the bat that Pits are not for the average dog owner.  Anyone that owns/wants to own a Pit needs to be educated about the breed.  This goes for ALL breeds of dogs as they all have their histories.  I know that when I got my first pit, I did extensive research into their history so that I could better understand them and help to educate the public.  I never wish to be labeled as the irresponsible owner and go to great extremes to prevent that.  We all need to be aware that as our dogs mature, they have the potential to become dog aggressive.  I am not niave to this fact.  However, just because they are pit bulls doesn't mean that they will become aggressive.  I am constantly watching my dogs as they interact with other dogs for any signs of aggression (knock on wood, I haven't seen any yet).  I want to be able to stop them before something escalates into a full blown fight.  

As for the dog park, I don't agree with you.  The dog park is a great way to socialize your dogs (any breed) as well as help other people who don't have much experience with Pits to get to know the breed.  Granted, there will be dog parks that the Pits will be turned away.  However, I live in Lexington Park and go to the new park on Willows Rd.  Lex Park has a high Pit population (both good and bad dogs).  So my dogs are more welcome here then they would be in, say, Charles County.  The large bully-type breeds are not always labeled as the aggressor in the bickers that happen.  I can't tell you how many times it's the labs that cause the spats.  This is a pretty open minded area (in my experience with the people at the dog park) and even when one of mine get caught up in the spats, the rightful owner is usually quick to jump in and take blame for their dog.  

I am glad to hear that you rescue and will definately look at all of the great things that your rescue is doing.    I wish you and everyone else involved the best of luck in finding all of your foster kids homes.  

PS Congrats on the convert.  We need more open minded people like you who will judge them for what they are, not what people make them out to be.


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## unixpirate

*Beyond the Myth*

Leaving Facebook... | Facebook


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