# Solar Power



## GWguy

Been doing a lot of research on "off grid".  I'm not looking to go off grid, but I do want to do some camping in remote areas, but still want the luxury of cold drinks and a charged cell phone/laptop.  The price of components has come way down, a decent 100 watt solar panel can be had for around $80. Biggest expense is still the batteries, so the fewer you can get away with, the better the cost and the less weight to carry around.

A big stumbling block is refrigeration, it can use a lot of power.  Been finding ways to reduce power needed.  A decent camper 3-way (propane/12V/120V) fridge can be very pricey, and the technology used isn't very efficient (ammonia evaporator as opposed to compressor).  There are companies that make 12VDC fridges/freezers that are really efficient, but cost a bundle.  Also saw videos of people replacing the compressor with 12VDC kits.  Less expensive, but a lot of work with refrigerant tools I don't have, and still not cheap.  Using a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter works, but you lose efficiency (read as shorter battery run times) in the conversion, and the 120VAC fridge still uses too much power to be effective for any length of time.

Then I came across a series of videos that make total sense:  use a small deep chest freezer and use it as a fridge.  They are inexpensive and easily retrofitted.  Because it's designed to hold cold longer at lower temps, it's already got more insulation than any standard fridge.  The fact that you don't lose cold air when you open it is huge.  The only mod is to either replace the thermostat with a fridge thermostat, or use an inexpensive external thermostat.  In either case, you're taking a cooling system designed to reach temps -30 degreesF and asking it to only get to 34 degreesF.  The power requirements are dropped dramatically, and now in the range of easily being powered with solar and battery.  Some folks are doing this successfully on two batteries and a single 100 watt solar panel.  Probably live in the SouthWest where it's sunny all the time.

So, just discovery at this point, but getting closer to adding solar to my pop-up.  I'm looking at 2-3 100 watt panels with a 1000 to 2000 watt inverter powered by a small bank of batteries.  Still researching batteries, the good deal on those 120AH LiFePO4s fell thru.

On a little bit different topic.... I've turned my ice coolers into super coolers.  They don't have enough insulation, and usually none in the top door.  Drill holes around the inside of the cooler, and shoot Great Stuff in it.  Way cheaper than getting a Yeti.

Interested in any feedback or thoughts anyone has or better design options.


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## PeoplesElbow

There are a ton of videos on youtube about people making campers etc out of vans and running solar. 

I am really wanting to convert a cargo van myself. 

Last year I bought one of these from Target,  almost as good as a Yeti and cost $69 https://www.igloocoolers.com/products/49783-bmx-52-qt-cooler-gray

A big question is do you really need refrigeration or would a really good cooler do the job?


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## GWguy

Yep, YouTube is my primary source.... 

I'm trying to design the system to provide as much power as I can with the limited space I have.  If I can design in enough to power a fridge, I'd like to, and stop dealing with ice chests altogether.

Besides....  it's a helluva fun thing to try!


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## PeoplesElbow

Those little cube refrigerators don't use much.  My power outlet in my Toyotas bed can run one,


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## GWguy

PeoplesElbow said:


> Those little cube refrigerators don't use much.  My power outlet in my Toyotas bed can run one,


Yes, but not for 12 or more hours without depleting the battery.  It's the length of run time that's at issue.


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## Yooper

If you're looking for info I have found this to be SUPER helpful as I try to understand solar....

Link: Mobile Solar Power Made Easy!: Mobile 12 volt off grid solar system design and installation. RV's, Vans, Cars and boats! Do-it-yourself step by step instructions

Good luck! And looking fwd to reading updates.

--- End of line (MCP)


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## GWguy

Yooper said:


> If you're looking for info I have found this to be SUPER helpful as I try to understand solar....
> 
> Link: Mobile Solar Power Made Easy!: Mobile 12 volt off grid solar system design and installation. RV's, Vans, Cars and boats! Do-it-yourself step by step instructions
> 
> Good luck! And looking fwd to reading updates.
> 
> --- End of line (MCP)


Agree.
I didn't get his book, but I have been watching the author's videos.  He is a little hyper, a non-stop talker and can change his mind on a subject or item, but an absolutely invaluable source of information.








						Mobile Solar Power: Made Easy! DIY Off-grid Solar Power!
					

Building a vehicle mounted solar power system? Let me help.



					www.mobile-solarpower.com
				



Thanx!


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## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> Yes, but not for 12 or more hours without depleting the battery.  It's the length of run time that's at issue.


Probably going to be your biggest power user? What are you planning on keeping in your fridge?

What else are you planning on powering?


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## Yooper

PeoplesElbow said:


> What are you planning on keeping in your fridge?


It's the bodies. Have to be able to haul them to a more remote place!





PeoplesElbow said:


> What else are you planning on powering?


Wood chipper.



(Dear forum reader, I hope you realize this is a joke! You know, Fargo?)

--- End of line (MCP)


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## GWguy

Uh... food?    I try to pack most things as non-perishables or single serving, but I can't stand fake eggs or powdered milk and there will be leftovers that need to be chilled.  Meats, mayo, etc....

Yes, the fridge will be the big energy user.  Other than that, camp site lights, camper lights, recharging laptop and cell phones, an LED projector for evening movies.  The trick is, if I size it right, all of this is a reality for as long as I want it, if it's 2 days or 2 weeks without having to worry about ice.


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## Yooper

GWguy said:


> [A]dding solar to my pop-up.



Am interested in your pop-up experience. We still have our late 1980s Coleman pop-up that (while we no longer use it for travel) we still use as a "cabin" on our property.

Is yours relatively new? If you were to buy a new one, what would it be? Dealer recommendations (you're located somewhere in the DelMarVa, I presume)? We'd love to buy Coleman again, but they've long been out of the pop-up game.

P.S. If you have time/interest/enthusiasm to "go sidebar" that is.

_---_ End of pop-up line (MCP)


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## black dog

GWguy said:


> Uh... food?    I try to pack most things as non-perishables or single serving, but I can't stand fake eggs or powdered milk and there will be leftovers that need to be chilled.  Meats, mayo, etc....
> 
> Yes, the fridge will be the big energy user.  Other than that, camp site lights, camper lights, recharging laptop and cell phones, an LED projector for evening movies.  The trick is, if I size it right, all of this is a reality for as long as I want it, if it's 2 days or 2 weeks without having to worry about ice.



 Eggs that are bought local that have never been refrigerated can be coated with cooking oil and kept without refrigeration for weeks as long as as they are kept out of the sun and turned daily. 
 Milk can be bought in juice boxes that don't need refrigeration.I sent my son a rollup solar panel that will keep his iPhone and laptop charged easily when they are in the field. 
 I most likely would go to propane refrigerator with what you do. 
 There are many ways to skin a cat.


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## GWguy

black dog said:


> Eggs that are bought local that have never been refrigerated can be coated with cooking oil and kept without refrigeration for weeks as long as as they are kept out of the sun and turned daily.
> Milk can be bought in juice boxes that don't need refrigeration.I sent my son a rollup solar panel that will keep his iPhone and laptop charged easily when they are in the field.
> I most likely would go to propane refrigerator with what you do.
> There are many ways to skin a cat.


Agree with all but....  I don't want to find out the hard way that the eggs weren't local/fresh.  
Tried the non-refrigerated milk products.  Nope.  
Can't use a propane fridge while moving, generates heat with open flame, requires a bottle, not inexpensive to buy, doesn't cool adequately in hot weather, will be outside so a wind can blow out the flame.

I have a concept, have thought about all the pros and cons, stop harshing my mellow!!!!


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## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> Uh... food?    I try to pack most things as non-perishables or single serving, but I can't stand fake eggs or powdered milk and there will be leftovers that need to be chilled.  Meats, mayo, etc....
> 
> Yes, the fridge will be the big energy user.  Other than that, camp site lights, camper lights, recharging laptop and cell phones, an LED projector for evening movies.  The trick is, if I size it right, all of this is a reality for as long as I want it, if it's 2 days or 2 weeks without having to worry about ice.



Asked about what you was keeping in it because keeping something cool takes less energy than making something cool.  

Personally I would have a dedicated system for the refrigerator and one for everything else.


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## GWguy

Yooper said:


> Am interested in your pop-up experience. We still have our late 1980s Coleman pop-up that (while we no longer use it for travel) we still use as a "cabin" on our property.
> 
> Is yours relatively new? If you were to buy a new one, what would it be? Dealer recommendations (you're located somewhere in the DelMarVa, I presume)? We'd love to buy Coleman again, but they've long been out of the pop-up game.
> 
> P.S. If you have time/interest/enthusiasm to "go sidebar" that is.
> 
> _---_ End of pop-up line (MCP)


Just got a new one, not your conventional pop-up.  here's a link:








						SylvanSport GO Lightweight Camping Trailer
					

The GO camping trailer hauls gear, transports equipment, and provides comfortable shelter. A versatile, lightweight camping trailer engineered for durability.



					www.sylvansport.com
				



Very lightweight, because I want to tow it behind my Slingshot.  The fold-out tent is completely contained in that plastic shell.  I can carry 850 pounds of load in addition to the trailer itself.  The supports on top can be used to mount rooftop accessories like the Thule stuff, but I plan on mounting the solar panels up there.


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## GWguy

PeoplesElbow said:


> Asked about what you was keeping in it because keeping something cool takes less energy than making something cool.
> 
> Personally I would have a dedicated system for the refrigerator and one for everything else.


Separate dedicated systems would require more batteries and additional weight and maintenance, duplicate charge systems, duplicate inverters....

That's what's nice about using electric.  It can be pre-chilled with contents, and still be actively chilling while driving.  It would already be cold when you arrive.


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## GWguy

Yooper said:


> somewhere in the DelMarVa


St. Mary's County


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## GWguy

Ok...  I think I pissed off everyone....

Don't let my blinders stop anyone from giving me alternate ideas and suggestions.  I do appreciate the comments, although it didn't sound like it.


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## Yooper

GWguy said:


> Just got a new one, not your conventional pop-up.  here's a link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SylvanSport GO Lightweight Camping Trailer
> 
> 
> The GO camping trailer hauls gear, transports equipment, and provides comfortable shelter. A versatile, lightweight camping trailer engineered for durability.
> 
> 
> 
> www.sylvansport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very lightweight, because I want to tow it behind my Slingshot.  The fold-out tent is completely contained in that plastic shell.  I can carry 850 pounds of load in addition to the trailer itself.  The supports on top can be used to mount rooftop accessories like the Thule stuff, but I plan on mounting the solar panels up there.


Very cool! I have seen the Sylvan Sports before. We're not looking something that light, looking to get back to a heavier-duty pop-up, but one that is "back country" capable. I've seen what I want at RV dealers that are far from SMC, so was hoping there was someplace nearby (Economy RV in M'ville don't sell the ones I'm looking for.)

Had never heard of the slingshot before. Wow! So what you're really looking for is a solution for motorcycle pop-up camping. Didn't realize that. Sorry if I missed it in your original post (I was more drawn in by the solar/electricity aspect). Now I understand the weight issues much better.

Am very interested and look fwd to future posts....

--- End of line (MCP)


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## GWguy

Yooper said:


> We're not looking something that light, looking to get back to a heavier-duty pop-up, but one that is "back country" capable. I've seen what I want at RV dealers that are far from SMC, so was hoping there was someplace nearby (Economy RV in M'ville don't sell the ones I'm looking for.)


I got my pop-up from Road Trip Camping in Orange, VA.  Check out their inventory, I suspect they might have what you're looking for.





						RV Campers in Virginia - Taxa Outdoors, Intech & NuCamp
					

At Road Trip Camping in Virginia we are your trusted RV dealers for travel trailers, toy haulers, camper customizations, and service by Taxa Outdoors, InTech, NuCamp and more.




					roadtripcamping.com


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## General Lee

black dog said:


> I most likely would go to propane refrigerator with what you do.



As would I. I have a camper and I have always been intrigued by dry camping. But I would take the worry out of refrigeration and use a propane fridge and put my solar energy into everything else.


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## Chris0nllyn

Why not use a propane fridge and solar power everything else?

Oops, just saw that great minds think alike (see above).


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## GWguy

I thought long and hard about a gas fired fridge.  Yeah, it would work just fine in spite of all my negative arguments, but if you look at my pop-up,, it cannot be used inside, no space, so it would be outside.  A stiff breeze would probably blow it out.  But this has become more of a challenge now, to see just how far I can get on solar alone.  I may change my mind as limits are hit, but I like projects like this.

To that end, I made a few purchases this morning.  I got a watt usage meter, similar to a kill-a-watt but will show me the peak surge and idle wattage.  This will help me determine actual needs on real world devices.

I also bought my first solar component, an MPPT 30 Amp charge controller.  It's the same make as one recommended by  mobile-solarpower, but upgraded with newer features and support for all Lithium batteries as well as lead acid and gel.  It's not the best, but was less expensive and a good starting point.  I can always replace it if it doesn't perform.
Amazon product

Still looking at solar panels.  Everyone says monocrystalline are better than polycrystalline, more power dense, but I'm finding real world tests have the poly panels of the same rating providing more voltage and current for less money.  Right now the standard size is 100W single panels and if you want more power, you add more panels.  Just found a 160W poly panel, just slightly larger than the 100W panel, and so far, good reviews.  2 160W panels provide more power than 3 100W panels.  That's significant when you have limited real estate to mount them.

I also found an old cooler in the basement with a 12VDC Peltier chiller.  Just hooked it up to a fully charged 8Ah motorcycle battery just to see how long it will last and how cool it gets.


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## Chris0nllyn

Mono or poly cells aren't much different and I wouldn't hinge my purchase on one or the other. Since you're going to be camping with them, you may want to look at thin film cells. They aren't as efficient as mono or poly modules but work better in low light. This depends on how big of an array you need as thin films need much more space.

Have you added up the loads and determined your Ah needs?


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## GWguy

Chris0nllyn said:


> Have you added up the loads and determined your Ah needs?


Not yet, still in the discovery/thought process stage.  If it can include a fridge, the rest will be in the noise.  It hinges solely on having enough battery to carry the load over time, and enough panels to replenish the batteries.  It has to break even or it won't work.  It may be unreachable for a small portable system like I'm planning.

Looked at thin film, not really considering it right now.  Biggest drawbacks are cost, mounting and size needed. It would take more surface area than hard panels for the same power capture, even considering lower light. I have limited mounting space and need every watt I can get, and preferably at the lowest cost.  Toying with the idea of removable panels and placing them on the ground so I can have a larger array, but not one of my favorite ideas right now.

Tests I've seen of poly vs mono show the poly panels producing 15-25 watts more per 100 watt panel than mono.  That's significant.


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## PeoplesElbow

How much does that projector draw,  the only projectors that I have used have used a pretty strong incandescent bulb, ours at work puts off some serious heat.  Do you have a link?


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## Clem72

PeoplesElbow said:


> How much does that projector draw,  the only projectors that I have used have used a pretty strong incandescent bulb, ours at work puts off some serious heat.  Do you have a link?



You can get both LASER and LED projectors that are much more efficient, but you pay for that efficiency.


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## GWguy

You can get tiny projectors using LED or laser.  A few I saw had theri own battery, lasted from 120 min to 4 hours, recharge via USB.

There's a UO Smart Beam, a Nebula Capsule, etc...
Too many to list here, and I'm still researching something I like.  Do Google for 'tiny laser projector' and that will get you started.


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## nutz

PeoplesElbow said:


> How much does that projector draw,  the only projectors that I have used have used a pretty strong incandescent bulb, ours at work puts off some serious heat.  Do you have a link?


I use a micro vision laser (showwx+) that they stopped making. This will probably be my next choice. https://www.asus.com/us/Projectors/


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## nutz

GWguy said:


> Not yet, still in the discovery/thought process stage.  If it can include a fridge, the rest will be in the noise.  It hinges solely on having enough battery to carry the load over time, and enough panels to replenish the batteries.  It has to break even or it won't work.  It may be unreachable for a small portable system like I'm planning.
> 
> Looked at thin film, not really considering it right now.  Biggest drawbacks are cost, mounting and size needed. It would take more surface area than hard panels for the same power capture, even considering lower light. I have limited mounting space and need every watt I can get, and preferably at the lowest cost.  Toying with the idea of removable panels and placing them on the ground so I can have a larger array, but not one of my favorite ideas right now.
> 
> Tests I've seen of poly vs mono show the poly panels producing 15-25 watts more per 100 watt panel than mono.  That's significant.


Might take a look here, if you haven’t already. https://us.sunpower.com/flexible-solar-panels/


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## GWguy

nutz said:


> I use a micro vision laser (showwx+) that they stopped making. This will probably be my next choice. https://www.asus.com/us/Projectors/


Thanx.  I glossed over these because of the size compared to the micro projectors, but they deserve another look.


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## wittykitty

I have a decent amount of off-grid living experience.  I personally find that it's a chore to regularly babysit the refrigerator and make sure it gets enough hours of power to retain it's temperature.  It's much easier, cheaper, and less fussy when I pack my "grocery cooler" with ice and keep it buried in the ground, in the shade or under the dwelling, with access only to the top portion of the cooler.  It helps to keep the cooler closed to retain temperature for the maximum number of hours, so if you're frequently opening your cooler for beverages, perhaps you might consider a separate cooler for those.  The "grocery cooler" I referred to can often last me 5-7 days in the summer time. 

 I find that electronics are true luxuries, and I use them sparingly when I am away in my solar-passive cabin.  In fact, I found I am much better off without it!  My cell phone is my primary technology when I am off grid, and I use a "battery bar" which is basically charged using a vehicle or home power.  I previously owned an off-grid solar system, which was a full time job itself, and requires far more knowledge than I have the education to safely understand and handle! At peak performance, the cables melted and nearly caught on fire!  The lesson I have learned thus far, is that relying on only one source of power is unrealistic.   

Since I learned to go mostly unplugged, my off-grid life got even better honestly!  A gasoline generator does the job for my true power needs, when I really need it.  I still have thoughts of using a deep-cycle marine battery to accomplish my charging needs, but I don't really see the need to pursue it right now.    

Good luck!  Please keep us posted!


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## GWguy

wittykitty said:


> At peak performance, the cables melted and nearly caught on fire!


It's very easy to underestimate the power that can be produced, and under-design the connections.  People think, ok, solar, not a lot of energy if I'm only able to charge a phone....  It's real easy to get up into the hundreds of amps of power draw with a few batteries.

Thanx for your experience and insight.  Appreciated.  I'm not looking to go off grid, tho, just set up for a week at a time of camping.  or should I say glamping.  I like my luxuries....


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## Monello

GWguy said:


> On a little bit different topic.... I've turned my ice coolers into super coolers.  They don't have enough insulation, and usually none in the top door.  Drill holes around the inside of the cooler, and shoot Great Stuff in it.  Way cheaper than getting a Yeti.
> 
> Interested in any feedback or thoughts anyone has or better design options.



I considered doing this to our cooler last year.  I watched a few videos but they all said the lids became warped once the fill expanded.  So I got the reflex material and made a cooler cover.  I attached a rope handle to it.  I also did 2 layers of material on the inside top of the lid.  It seems to have helped.  We reached 112* last summer in Texas.  Bags of cubed ice melted in no time.  There was no block ice available or I would have used that.


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## GWguy

Monello said:


> I considered doing this to our cooler last year.  I watched a few videos but they all said the lids became warped once the fill expanded.  So I got the reflex material and made a cooler cover.  I attached a rope handle to it.  I also did 2 layers of material on the inside top of the lid.  It seems to have helped.  We reached 112* last summer in Texas.  Bags of cubed ice melted in no time.  There was no block ice available or I would have used that.


I didn't have a problem with the lids, but the sides expanded. It's not a problem, just looks a little odd, bloated coolers.  The insides are ok.


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## wittykitty

Monello, I'm curious what brand and type of cooler you used.
Here's something you may consider.  Affordable and effective.



Amazon product


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## PeoplesElbow

As far as the coolers go,  i saw this one guy had a great idea.  

He took a big cooler and put two smaller throw away styrofoam coolers inside it, they fit perfectly.  The first was for frozen items,  the second for unfrozen but must be refrigerated items.  Finally for stuff just like drinks he used the extra room inside the big cooler and had ice in that.  

This way his frozen stuff and unthawed meat stayed cold without getting hot air in it whenever he opened the big lid.  The extra insulation of the styrofoam provided more than enough to keep the frozen stuff frozen for over a week.   

Yeti coolers only work as good as they do because they have very thick stryofoam walls.  The innovation about the yeti is how the hard plastic shell is molded.


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## GWguy

PeoplesElbow said:


> As far as the coolers go, i saw this one guy had a great idea.


Yes, that idea has been mentioned somewhere on the forums before.  I was thinking of doing that too


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## Monello

wittykitty said:


> Monello, I'm curious what brand and type of cooler you used.
> Here's something you may consider.  Affordable and effective.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon product



We have an inexpensive Coleman cooler.  Here's my solution to our ice melt issue.

This is the cooler cover I came up with last year.  We use it daily.  It's still hanging in there pretty well.





I lined the lid with a few layers of material.  It's at least 2 and may be 3 layers.  I forget the exact number.  It's taped in place with postal package tape.  We never overload the cooler so there is no loss of storage capacity.





Here's my solution so we could remove the lid.  It's just a rope that is held in place by knots and cardboard to give it some strength.  And we have a can opener tied to the rope so it's always close by.  But this year our beer drinking is down quite a bit since weed is now legal in most of the west.


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## nutz

Monello said:


> But this year our beer drinking is down quite a bit since weed is now legal in most of the west.


 Hmmm, has this created a small surplus or deficit in the recreational column?


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## GWguy

Things are starting to coalesce.  I received my solar charger.  Looks like it will do the job, but for a few minutes wasn't sure if I had undersized it.  I got a 30 amp unit, thinking I wouldn't exceed that with 2 panels.  That is, until I found some panels that could very easily overpower the unit. 

After a lot of reading and YouTube videos, I've written off the flexible panels.  The two major issues are real estate and failure rate.  It takes much more square footage to equal the output of a hard panel, and and very very easy to break or develop hot spots making them useless.  Warranty is typically less than half the life of a hard panel.  Price is also much higher per watt.  These fill a need for some and have a place, just not in my system.  I found a panel that I think fits my needs.  Renogy makes a 270 watt @ 24VDC poly panel for about $1 a watt.  I could do better cost-wise, down to 70 cents a watt for 100 watt panels, but I'd have to get more panels to make up the difference and occupy more space.  Since space is at a premium, I'm willing to spend a little more to get a lot more.  They also make a 300 watt mono panel, but the poly has a higher open circuit voltage with less sun.

So, I'm going to get one 270 watt panel and test it out.  (2) 270 watt panels at 24 volts is 22.5 Amps / 540 watts when wired in parallel.  This is where wire sizing comes in.  If you think of your home wiring, if you have a 20 amp circuit, you wire with 12 gauge wire.  I'm exceeding that already.  10 gauge at a minimum, and if you wire any distance, an even heavy wire is needed to prevent loss and overheating.  I could wire the panels in series, which doubles the voltage (48VDC) but halves the amps (11.25A).   Smaller wire size could be used, but you run into an issue: If one panel goes into the shade or fails, the entire PV array stops working.  A parallel system will continue to produce power for whatever panel is still working.  In reality, I happen to have a significant length of 4-wire 12-gauge stranded rubber jacketed wire.  I can use one pair of wires in the bundle for each panel (11.25A) and then combine them at the solar charger unit with a very short piece of 8 gauge.  Well within wire loads using lighter wire.

Battery storage is still an unknown.

As far as the fridge goes......  ok, maybe I was being overly ambitious to get a solar fridge.  Still on my radar, but not for the initial prototype.  I'm going to go with the nested cooler setup.  I have a few of the cheap styrofoam containers from Omaha Steaks.  Going to get a larger cooler to fit two of these.  When I ordered knishes from NY, it came in an insulated bag which just happens to fit perfectly inside the styrofoam cooler.  Filling 1/2 gallon milk containers with water and freezing them.  Perfect size for the coolers and no melted ice water everywhere.  This should be good to keep stuff cold a long while.


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## GURPS

would something like that run a Window AC Unit in the summer / during the day?


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## GWguy

GURPS said:


> would something like that run a Window AC Unit in the summer / during the day?


Yes, with enough battery and a large enough inverter.  There are vids of people doing it, but you need massive panel and battery to make it run for more than a few minutes.


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## GWguy

So, for better or worse, I've ordered the 270 watt poly panel.  Ordered it thru Walmart, same price as everywhere else, free shipping plus a discount ($8) for picking it up at the store rather than home ship.

Also ordered a termination tool kit for the MC4 connector.  These connectors are the "standard" for solar panel hookups.  And discovered something interesting....  The connectors are only good for  a 10-12 gauge wire and 30 amps.  If you have 4 panels at 270 watts in parallel, that's 45 amps at 24VDC.  Like I said before, real easy to underestimate the wiring.


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## GURPS

GWguy said:


> Yes, with enough battery and a large enough inverter.  ......   to make it run for more than a few minutes.




I only want to offset usage during the day  ... 700 ish watts ish when running with a surg of 1800 - 2000 


so 4 * 270 = 1080 that should cover it


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## GWguy

Don't forget those numbers are maximum theoretical.  I'd knock 25% off the top, just because.  And then your battery bank/inverter has to be able to maintain that load during any cloudy times, so figure what is acceptable.

I'd suggest reviewing some of the videos from people who have tried it.


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## GWguy

GURPS said:


> I only want to offset usage during the day  ... 700 ish watts ish when running with a surg of 1800 - 2000
> 
> 
> so 4 * 270 = 1080 that should cover it


If you're serious about doing a/c on solar, check out this product.  It softens the start-up power surge.


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## GWguy

I've been discovering the down side to being retired.  WAY too much time to think about things.  Since I have no big debts, there's lots of expendable cash available.  And I have a pretty active curiosity.  Bad combination.  or good.  Depends on your outlook!

The solar fridge thing was bugging me.  A lot.  To the point where I went to Waldork today an bought a 3.5 cubic Ft freezer just to experiment.  I figured what the heck.  If the solar thing doesn't work out, I can replace my bigger freezer that's mostly empty with this little guy.  Found one at Best Buy for $150, had the lowest annual KiloWattHours of any other.

Got it home and unpacked it.  First thing I did was attach a watt meter to it, then fired it up.  Let it run for a while, then did the calculations.

Mind blown.

Power on current at 120VAC was 905 watts.  Immediately settled down between 94 and 97 watts.  Less than a 100 watt bulb.  Within 30 minutes the freezer was down to 20 degrees_.  _I only need it to go to 34.

So, when running, it uses about 100 WattHours, that's 100 watts per hour.  One solar panel rated for 270 WattHours, figure for argument's sake, 200 WattHours available.  That's 200 watts available EACH HOUR.  The freezer can run indefinitely as long as there is usable sun, but it shouldn't have to run that often.  If it got to 20 gegrees in a half hour, it won't run very often at all to keep it at 34 degrees.  So now it becomes a matter of how much battery you want to have on hand.  The more battery, the longer it will run into the night.  But I'm thinking that's not a big issue.  Come dark, cover the freezer with a thermal blanket and wait for daylight.  It's insulated better than a cooler, so that should work.  My solar panel arrives Friday, so by Saturday I should be able to have a test rig set up and see just how much power I can really get from the panel to the battery.

So, next item to procure is a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter.  Now that I have an idea of how much 120VAC power I'll need, I can select an appropriate inverter.  Not considering the cheaper modified sine wave, going for a full sine wave inverter.


----------



## GWguy

Gets even better....  I figured the power usage would have been higher for the initial power on and 1st cycling, so I reset the meter to catch subsequent power usage.

Took no time at all to stabilize at 0 degreesF.  From then on, power-on surge is between 140 and 220 watts.  I account some of that deviation to the speed and sample rate of the meter.  It was $12...  Run power usage is around 88 watts.


----------



## PeoplesElbow

How are you planning on changing the freezer's temperature?  I am guessing you can fake it out to think it is actually colder than it is, maybe they use a thermistor?


----------



## GWguy

An External thermostat, goes on the plug to the freezer.  something like this, haven't made a decision on which one yet.  This one doesn't require power, but isn't as accurate.  Another digital I'm looking at is much nicer, more accurate, but is powered by the line, which is probably not a big deal.
Amazon product


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## GWguy

This one allows you to set a range, say off at 34 degrees, on at 38.
Amazon product


----------



## GWguy

I let the freezer run overnight with the thermostat set to max cold.  It was stable at -10F.  The watt meter really isn't fast enough to catch the power-on surge correctly, so my numbers of under 200 watts is just plain wrong.  Still seeing surge between 900 and 1100 watts.  Run current is still pretty low, less than 90 watts.  The meter does have an actual runtime reading.  In 12 hours, it ran about 3.5 hours, so a little over 30% actual runtime.  I hope this to be significantly less when reset to 34 degrees.


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## GWguy

Downloaded and read the install and specs manual for the solar panel.  Missed something quite important....  I was expounding on the wiring of the panel, parallel vs series and how wiring in series requires smaller wire sizes but parallel was better for shading and panel failure.  As it turns out, these panels have bypass diodes in them which allow the current to bypass the panel if it's not producing.  So they can be wired in series to lessen the amps and wire size needed, and the entire array will still produce if a panel stops working for whatever reason.

This just made my panel-to-controller wiring much easier.  Just one 2-wire stranded 12 gauge will accommodate up to 3 panels in series (my max input to the controller is 100VDC/1700W, each panel puts out about 32VDC/270W) and I won't exceed 10 amps.

Instead of buying expensive solar wire, it's been recommended to use 12 gauge landscape wire.  It's direct burial if needed and UV protected.  I think Lowes has a 100' roll for about $60.


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## Chris0nllyn

GWguy said:


> Instead of buying expensive solar wire, it's been recommended to use 12 gauge landscape wire.  It's direct burial if needed and UV protected.  I think Lowes has a 100' roll for about $60.


Great work so far. 

Make sure your wiring is as short as possible. While ampacity of the wire is important, voltage drop in low voltage systems can be a problem.  

Have you thought about possibly adding a small wind turbine? Obviously, it'll only help if it's windy (usually around 8mph start up speed and around 15mph charging speed) but may help ride through nights with the freezer on.


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## GWguy

Thanx, Chris.
I actually oversized the wire.  14 gauge would have handled it (8-9A), but I upsized to 12 gauge to cover voltage drop loss up to about 50 feet.  That should be plenty.

Wind may be a future consideration, but since this is a portable system for camping, a turbine may be a bit much.  Other campers may not appreciate the turbine whine.  I'd also have to swap out the solar charger, it's only designed for PV panels.  There are units out there that have separate inputs for PV and wind.

I've been working with a small 17AH battery which won't accept a full charge.  I did a quick welding job for a neighbor today and he gave me a 45Ah battery in real good condition.  That will make my testing a bit easier.

Freezer was running at about a 30% duty cycle to maintain -10 degrees.   Earlier today I set the thermostat to it's warmest setting.  It stabilized around +10 degrees.  Going to let it run more, but indications are that it's running at an 18% duty cycle to hold +10.  Testing is in the garage where its been about 60 degrees, so I fully expect cycle times to rise as it gets hotter.

Got a cheapo inverter from WallyWorld just to continue testing.  It has no real over/under voltage protection and is modified sine wave so I won't want to use it in the "production" system, but it will help me get wattage numbers for the freezer.

Really looking forward to getting the PV panel.


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## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> Thanx, Chris.
> I actually oversized the wire.  14 gauge would have handled it (8-9A), but I upsized to 12 gauge to cover voltage drop loss up to about 50 feet.  That should be plenty.
> 
> Wind may be a future consideration, but since this is a portable system for camping, a turbine may be a bit much.  Other campers may not appreciate the turbine whine.  I'd also have to swap out the solar charger, it's only designed for PV panels.  There are units out there that have separate inputs for PV and wind.
> 
> I've been working with a small 17AH battery which won't accept a full charge.  I did a quick welding job for a neighbor today and he gave me a 45Ah battery in real good condition.  That will make my testing a bit easier.
> 
> Freezer was running at about a 30% duty cycle to maintain -10 degrees.   Earlier today I set the thermostat to it's warmest setting.  It stabilized around +10 degrees.  Going to let it run more, but indications are that it's running at an 18% duty cycle to hold +10.  Testing is in the garage where its been about 60 degrees, so I fully expect cycle times to rise as it gets hotter.
> 
> Got a cheapo inverter from WallyWorld just to continue testing.  It has no real over/under voltage protection and is modified sine wave so I won't want to use it in the "production" system, but it will help me get wattage numbers for the freezer.
> 
> Really looking forward to getting the PV panel.


FWIW the difference in temperature between the inside and outside can be used, so a duty cycle for -10 inside and 60 outside should be really close for one 10 inside and 80 outside.


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## GWguy

Well, just set up the fridge to run off of the 750Watt inverter powered by a standalone battery, no recharge.  Started at 13.0VDC, will let it run until I hit 11.0VDC, low battery warning on the inverter is 10.5VDC.

Just going to see how long it will run with the freezer temp at +10 degrees before the battery runs out.  The inverter draws 6 watts with no load.


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## GWguy

Started monitoring at 5:30pm.  It's now 11:30pm, so it's been running for 6 hours, and holding fine at +10 degrees.  Actual freezer run time so far is 57 minutes.

Started with a 45Ah battery at 13VDC, which is approx 55% charged.  It wasn't fully charged to begin.  6 hours later, it's at 12.3VDC or 41% remaining.  My cutoff is 11.0VDC.  Not even halfway there yet after 6 hours.  I expect as time progresses, the voltage will drop much faster towards the end.

This is so much better than I could have expected.  No doubt in my mind that a larger fully charged battery will carry this all night long with power to spare.  The only annoying thing is the beep alarm on the inverter when the freezer starts up.  A warning for over-current draw.  The permanent inverter will have a little more capacity and shouldn't trigger surge alarms.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's still running in the AM.


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## GWguy

Still running.  Battery is at 12.0VDC and 30% remaining at idle, sags to 11.6VDC when the freezer kicks in.  Low battery warning lights, but it's still making 115VAC (inverter nominal output).  Still +10 degrees.  Total run time since yesterday evening is 2 hours 9 minutes.  Disconnected everything.  The inverter doesn't have a low voltage shutoff and I don't want to damage the freezer.

This was a great experiment.  A few more tests after I get the PV panel, but pretty sure this will work just fine in the wild.


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## GWguy

I went with the digital thermostat, just got it and set it up.  It has a function to delay turn-on when using a compressor.  Nice for fridges/freezers.

Going to give it some time to adjust/stabilize and see what kind of KWH usage I get, then switch it over to battery only.


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## GWguy

Ran for 13 hours overnight on line power, actual runtime was 58 minutes or 7% duty cycle.  External thermostat says 34-37 degrees, right where I set it, the thermometer I had been using said 30.  So I put a bowl of water in the freezer overnight.  It was still unfrozen this morning, so I guess the thermometer I had been using was off by 4-5 degrees.  That makes sense because I set my fridge freezer to -6 degrees and that thermometer reads -10.

Today I'll hook it back up to a fully charged battery and do another standalone run time test using the external thermostat.  I was hoping to hook the PV panel up by tonight, but it's been delayed in shipping.  Monday afternoon at the earliest now.


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## General Lee

GWguy said:


> Ran for 13 hours overnight on line power, actual runtime was 58 minutes or 7% duty cycle.  External thermostat says 34-37 degrees, right where I set it, the thermometer I had been using said 30.  So I put a bowl of water in the freezer overnight.  It was still unfrozen this morning, so I guess the thermometer I had been using was off by 4-5 degrees.  That makes sense because I set my fridge freezer to -6 degrees and that thermometer reads -10.
> 
> Today I'll hook it back up to a fully charged battery and do another standalone run time test using the external thermostat.  I was hoping to hook the PV panel up by tonight, but it's been delayed in shipping.  Monday afternoon at the earliest now.


You may already know this - but to calibrate or check a thermometer - stick it in a glass of ice water. Plenty of ice (let sit for a few) the thermometer should read 32 degrees. Next, boil water. Here at our elevation water boils at 212*. So the thermometer should read that.


----------



## Ken King

General Lee said:


> You may already know this - but to calibrate or check a thermometer - stick it in a glass of ice water. Plenty of ice (let sit for a few) the thermometer should read 32 degrees. Next, boil water. Here at our elevation water boils at 212*. So the thermometer should read that.


Mine must be broked.  In ice water it reads 0, in boiling water it reads 100.


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## Chris0nllyn

Ken King said:


> Mine must be broked.  In ice water it reads 0, in boiling water it reads 100.


That's about the most un-American thing I've ever read. /s


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## Ken King

Chris0nllyn said:


> That's about the most un-American thing I've ever read. /s


But it is worldly.


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## GWguy

This digital thermometer has a calibration feature.  I stuck the probe in ice water, it was off by about a degree.  Not a big deal.  What I am seeing tho is that because this freezer is small and there is no air circulation, the bottom is below freezing, the middle is just about freezing and near the top is well above freezing.  I could put a fan in there, but I'm going to take advantage of the thermocline.  Frozen stuff will stay frozen at the bottom and butter kept on top will still spread.  If I place the probe in the center of the freezer and set it to 32 degrees, that should be pretty close to ideal.

Started the battery run test about 7:30AM, still running strong.


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## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> This digital thermometer has a calibration feature.  I stuck the probe in ice water, it was off by about a degree.  Not a big deal.  What I am seeing tho is that because this freezer is small and there is no air circulation, the bottom is below freezing, the middle is just about freezing and near the top is well above freezing.  I could put a fan in there, but I'm going to take advantage of the thermocline.  Frozen stuff will stay frozen at the bottom and butter kept on top will still spread.  If I place the probe in the center of the freezer and set it to 32 degrees, that should be pretty close to ideal.
> 
> Started the battery run test about 7:30AM, still running strong.


The different will not be as big with stuff in it.


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## GWguy

Yes.  A lot will change when it's loaded, run times, temps swings...


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## GWguy

I have got to stop watching you tube vids....  

The thermostat setup works really well, but has a few drawbacks.  It adds a lot of extra wire, it's clumsy and when it's off, the indicator light on the front of the freezer isn't lit, so you don't know if it's just cycled off or not working at all.  All minor inconveniences, but there is a cleaner way.  Found a video where the guy simply replaced the freezer thermostat with a same-form fridge thermostat.  It would certainly violate my warranty, so I'm going to hold off on that a bit, but in the long run, a much better, cleaner method.  That gives me time to research a match for my freezer.  And a cheap fix too, as cheap as $6.


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## General Lee

Cha


Ken King said:


> Mine must be broked.  In ice water it reads 0, in boiling water it reads 100.


Then change the "C" to "F" lol


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## GWguy

It ran over 24 hours on battery only.  It was dropping under 12.0VDC under load just now so it's been returned to line power.  I was sure that a fridge would have been the worst KWH offender, but I'm happy to say I was wrong.

On a similar note, my drip coffee maker draws 850 watts.  It won't be going camping.


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## GWguy

Took the rig out for a test run / shakedown.


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## black dog

Ken King said:


> Mine must be broked.  In ice water it reads 0, in boiling water it reads 100.


You have a metric one.


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## black dog

GWguy said:


> It ran over 24 hours on battery only.  It was dropping under 12.0VDC under load just now so it's been returned to line power.  I was sure that a fridge would have been the worst KWH offender, but I'm happy to say I was wrong.
> 
> On a similar note, my drip coffee maker draws 850 watts.  It won't be going camping.


Look at Stanley's Thermos / Coffee Press, My son loves his.
Amazon product


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## General Lee

GWguy said:


> Took the rig out for a test run / shakedown.
> View attachment 136018
> View attachment 136019



I gotta say, cool set up  , when you get that tent set up, post some pics Please


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## GWguy




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## GWguy

black dog said:


> Look at Stanley's Thermos / Coffee Press, My son loves his.
> Amazon product



Thanx...  That was more of a joke than anything else.  I have my trusty perk pot for the campfire/stove.


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## General Lee

GWguy said:


> View attachment 136020
> View attachment 136021



They sure do come up with some things don't they? Nice little shelter when traveling around in your slingshot.


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## GWguy

Got the panel today.  A bit larger than I imagined, I'm thinking only one panel will fit on the pop-up.

Had a few minutes before sundown to try it out.  It was hazy sun, but strong enough to get an idea.  Started off with a full battery and a warm freezer.  Hooked it all up and turned it on.  The solar panel easily put back into the battery as much as the freezer was taking out.  Battery stayed fully charged while running the freezer.  Turned off the solar panel for 10 minutes.  Battery got down to 12.5V.  Turned the panel back on, charged at 145watts, then fell back to 90 watts when the battery was full, only took 5 minutes to replenish it to full.

I'm impressed.


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## GWguy

Set it all up today, didn't expect much with the lack of sun.  Even in this overcast, it's still producing 38VDC open circuit.  Connected, I'm getting 14-20VDC and about .5-.8A.  It's not enough to cover the usage of the fridge while running but since the fridge only runs 7-8% of the time, the other 92-93% of the time it's trickle charging and makes up for what was used over the long run.

Found a small wheeled toolbox at BJs for cheap.  Going to mount the battery, inverter, solar charger and wiring in it for a nice clean portable system.  Ordered some surface-mount cutoff switches for the battery and inverter.  Tractor Supply has a nice full sine wave inverter for a lot less than others I've seen.  Might do that.

Have to admit, this has been a fun project, regardless of whether it worked or not.


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## GURPS

GWguy said:


> Have to admit, this has been a fun project, regardless of whether it worked or not.




things like this keep your mind from going to mush


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## GWguy

The panel was providing power before the sun even got to it this morning, about the same as yesterday in the overcast.  But once the sun hit it, the battery was fully recharged and then some in about an hour, after running the freezer all night.  
This is so easy and so productive....

I had the shipping packing for the freezer, so had the bright idea to use it to provide a thermal cover.  Re-used everything, got a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam and made an enclosure.  The original box slips right down over the whole thing.  Made the lid removable so I can still get in, and cut open the vent holes for the compressor air flow.  Running a new KWH usage test to see if it was of any benefit at all.


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## GWguy

I let the system run for a while, but was very puzzled by the results.  Run time went up significantly.  It has previously been running at 5-8%, now it was running 10-15%.  wtf.  After scratching my head for a while, I realized I had used metal foil tape to attach the thermo probe inside the freezer.  I removed the tape and let the probe hang like I had before.  Reset the timers and let it run overnight.  Much better.  Down to 4.5% run time.  So the added insulation did have a beneficial effect.  Every little bit helps when it gets hot outside.

Waiting on parts, some power switches and a new inverter.


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## GWguy

I've been letting this system run on it's own since the 2nd.  Even as cloudy and overcast and rainy as it was yesterday, the panel still provided enough power to recharge the battery for overnight.  Battery got low a few times, but never got to the 'abort' point.  Once the sun rises, it starts charging again.  When the full sun hits it, it produces 150 watts  at 32-38VDC with a full load.

Had the freezer thermostat range set for 30.5 to 36 degrees.  Realized that wasn't realistic, and reset it to 30.5 to 34 degrees.  That 2 degree change bumped the duty cycle usage from 8 to 12%.  I was expecting it to run more often, but for shorter times.  Each run cycle is just as long as before and more often.  Must have something to do with the how the space gets cooled.  It was also much warmer today, so I need to account for that.  But it has enough power to cover the increase in cycle times.

Still waiting on the new inverter.  ETA Wen.  Have to wait until I have it before mounting everything up in the portable tote, to make sure the clearances between components is good.


----------



## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> The panel was providing power before the sun even got to it this morning, about the same as yesterday in the overcast.  But once the sun hit it, the battery was fully recharged and then some in about an hour, after running the freezer all night.
> This is so easy and so productive....
> 
> I had the shipping packing for the freezer, so had the bright idea to use it to provide a thermal cover.  Re-used everything, got a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam and made an enclosure.  The original box slips right down over the whole thing.  Made the lid removable so I can still get in, and cut open the vent holes for the compressor air flow.  Running a new KWH usage test to see if it was of any benefit at all.
> 
> View attachment 136109
> View attachment 136110
> View attachment 136111
> View attachment 136112


nice experiment

One thing that might help is getting the heat generated by the compressor and coils away from the unit more efficiently. I would say insulate better between the compressor/coils and the unit but there probably isn't room for that.


----------



## GWguy

PeoplesElbow said:


> nice experiment
> 
> One thing that might help is getting the heat generated by the compressor and coils away from the unit more efficiently. I would say insulate better between the compressor/coils and the unit but there probably isn't room for that.


I can look into that.  Might be able to slip a piece of styrofoam in there.  I saw a video where someone squirted GreatStuff all around the compressor and slid styrofoam between the coils and body.  I'll have to see if I can find that vid and if his mods made a difference.  I think he did it "just because" and didn't really run any performance testing.


----------



## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> I can look into that.  Might be able to slip a piece of styrofoam in there.  I saw a video where someone squirted GreatStuff all around the compressor and slid styrofoam between the coils and body.  I'll have to see if I can find that vid and if his mods made a difference.  I think he did it "just because" and didn't really run any performance testing.


I would be afraid the greatstuff would make it overheat,  it has to shed heat.


----------



## GWguy

PeoplesElbow said:


> I would be afraid the greatstuff would make it overheat,  it has to shed heat.


Agreed.  I wouldn't want to screw up the warranty anyway.


----------



## GWguy

Got the new inverter today.  The old one worked, but this one is much better, better performance, better power safeguards for over and under-voltage protection, draws less current at idle than the old one did, and has a "soft start" so as not to damage induction motors and such, like a fridge.

Outputs at 120VAC as opposed to 115VAC.  I'm thinking this might shorten the fridge on-cycle times.  New one holds 60 Hz, the old one was a few cycles under, and if there was no load, it drifted all over the place, as high as 138 Hz.  Old one had a fan that kicked on as soon as there was power draw.  It was kind of loud and I knew when the fridge was running.  New one has a fan, but it won't kick in until the internal temp reaches 65 degrees C.  With as little load as I'm pulling, it may never turn on.  The whole system is whisper quiet now.

So reset the stats monitoring and will let it run for a few days.  It's been running totally standalone since the 2nd of April, fridge temps hovering around 30 degrees with nothing in it.


----------



## GWguy

GURPS said:


> would something like that run a Window AC Unit in the summer / during the day?


@GURPS
Regarding supplementing your A/C, this s probably what you need to do.  It's a small solar transfer switch.  When the solar batteries are depleted, it kicks over automagically to grid power.


----------



## GURPS

there are also these 'inverters' you just plug into the wall to offset electric coming from the meter


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## GWguy

Been running now for about a week and a half non-stop.  I'm really pleased.  With the new inverter and resetting the temp range, it has a duty cycle of about 10% +/- 1%.

Going to dismantle it today and permanently mount it all up in a nice portable package.


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## GWguy

Pretty much done.  Waiting on an external display for the solar charger, that will get mounted on top.  Also need to mount a remote on/off switch for the inverter.  Otherwise, not a bad little package.


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## Chris0nllyn

Looks awesome! 

Are you worried about heat build up in the inverter box? Would it be worth adding a small 12V computer fan?


----------



## GWguy

Chris0nllyn said:


> Looks awesome!
> 
> Are you worried about heat build up in the inverter box? Would it be worth adding a small 12V computer fan?


Thanx.
Not really.  I ran it for days on the bench and it barely got warm.  It got a few degrees warmer in the box, but not enough right now to worry about.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

GWguy said:


> Thanx.
> Not really.  I ran it for days on the bench and it barely got warm.  It got a few degrees warmer in the box, but not enough right now to worry about.



Gotcha. I assume the boxes will be indoors or in a shaded area?


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## GWguy

Chris0nllyn said:


> Gotcha. I assume the boxes will be indoors or in a shaded area?


Camping.  Maybe a tarp?  Needs to stay dry, fer sure.


----------



## GWguy

Just an FYI for anyone using a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter.  They all have a 3 prong outlet (hot, neutral, ground) but the ground is not connected to a real ground.  If you use one in damp conditions where you'd normally use a GFI circuit breaker for protection, a GFI cannot work and there is no GFI protection.

I came across this out of curiosity, used a GFI tester on the 120VAC output, knowing it was going to be used outside in potentially damp/wet conditions.  GFI tester showed no ground circuit.  Tried 2 other inverters, same thing.  There is no "earth" grounding.  The inverter frame is "grounded", but only to the negative pole of the battery.


----------



## GWguy

I have a spare full size fridge, top freezer, just sitting there.  I got curious if the solar system could power it, so I hooked up the watt meter.  Again, surprised.  Initial turn-on surge was about 1500 watts, but quickly fell to 120 watts.  In partial sun, the solar system can easily cover 120 watts.  After it ran for a few hours, it fell to 95 watts.  Barely more than the freezer/fridge I put together.  But being bigger, it will run much much longer.  During the day, not a problem, but it would need a much bigger battery than the 45Ah I have now to carry it thru the night.

So, in a pinch, the little, portable solar system could run a full size fridge.  Interesting.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

GWguy said:


> Just an FYI for anyone using a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter.  They all have a 3 prong outlet (hot, neutral, ground) but the ground is not connected to a real ground.  If you use one in damp conditions where you'd normally use a GFI circuit breaker for protection, a GFI cannot work and there is no GFI protection.
> 
> I came across this out of curiosity, used a GFI tester on the 120VAC output, knowing it was going to be used outside in potentially damp/wet conditions.  GFI tester showed no ground circuit.  Tried 2 other inverters, same thing.  There is no "earth" grounding.  The inverter frame is "grounded", but only to the negative pole of the battery.



A ground isn't needed for a GFCI to work property. It senses current on the neutral and trips. 

That's why old two-prong (ungrounded) outlets must be swapped with GFCI outlets or breakers.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

GWguy said:


> I have a spare full size fridge, top freezer, just sitting there.  I got curious if the solar system could power it, so I hooked up the watt meter.  Again, surprised.  Initial turn-on surge was about 1500 watts, but quickly fell to 120 watts.  In partial sun, the solar system can easily cover 120 watts.  After it ran for a few hours, it fell to 95 watts.  Barely more than the freezer/fridge I put together.  But being bigger, it will run much much longer.  During the day, not a problem, but it would need a much bigger battery than the 45Ah I have now to carry it thru the night.
> 
> So, in a pinch, the little, portable solar system could run a full size fridge.  Interesting.



I came across this thing recently.

Dometic powered cooler with a fridge side, freezer side, and optional deep freeze. The biggest model only uses 0.85Ah/hr @ 12VDC (or 10.2Wh).
Looks neat, but probably more expensive than your whole set up (it's about $1,200). 
https://www.dometic.com/en-us/us/products/food-and-beverage/coolers/electric-coolers/dometic-cfx-65w-_-152179#specifications


----------



## GWguy

I've looked at many of the 12v fridges, and they are all very expensive for what you get, which is why I thought it was a great thing to build the one I did.  Cheap, and works better.

Regarding the GFI, ok, I've been educated.  Did a little research on GFIs and you're right, it senses a mis-match between hot and neutral output vs input, not ground.  It's called "ground fault" not because the ground has faulted, but because the hot has most likely found a path to ground.  Given that, I'm going to add a GFI breaker to my setup and re-test.  I'd feel a lot better with an operational GFI when outside.


----------



## GWguy

Well, contrary to the manufacturer of the inverter, a GFI breaker between their inverter and my 120VAC hardware works correctly, as intended.

Have to modify the case a bit to accommodate the GFI as it's bigger than the duplex outlet I have in there now.

Thanx for the heads up, Chris.


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## GWguy

Replaced the outlet with a GFI, mounted up the solar charger display and remote on/off switch for the inverter.

Other than building a stand for the solar panel, this is pretty much a done deal.


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## DoWhat

GWguy said:


> Replaced the outlet with a GFI, mounted up the solar charger display and remote on/off switch for the inverter.
> 
> Other than building a stand for the solar panel, this is pretty much a done deal.
> View attachment 136677
> View attachment 136678


Nice job GW. Looks awesome.


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## GWguy

Couple of updates...  I have been using a 45Ah battery for this project, but it's really kind of small.  After much looking and thinking, I ordered a 100Ah sealed AGM battery.  This will give me more than double the capacity and still be able to be fully recharged during a normal day.  I originally wanted a LiFePo4 battery, but they can be fussy, require periodic maintenance, and way expensive.  I can replace the AGM if it fails and still be ahead on cost vs the LiFePo4.  Just have to mindful of not draining a sealed battery beyond 50% or you can permanently damage it.  The more capacity, the less likely that will happen, but too much capacity and they may not fully recharge during the day.

While waiting for the new battery, I'm making some minor fixes.  The switches easily pulled apart, not very robust.  Since they will (or never should) be opened, I decided to epoxy the switches shut where they come apart.  No more worry there.  

I had used some 4 gauge wire for interconnects, but it was THHN which is pretty inflexible.  Upgrading all of that to a very flexible 4 gauge.  Best price I could find on wire was to buy a set of 4 gauge jumper cables and use that wire.  That will work out well.  Started de-soldering all the original connectors, but have to use a blow torch to make these.  I like soldering better than crimp for wire this size, and since the connectors are not cheap, I can re-use them.  Once you crimp a connector, it cannot be re-used.

Also going to add a battery expansion port to easily add another battery if needed.


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## black dog

Chris0nllyn said:


> A ground isn't needed for a GFCI to work property. It senses current on the neutral and trips.
> 
> That's why old two-prong (ungrounded) outlets must be swapped with GFCI outlets or breakers.


I believe he's thinking of the old GFI's.


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## GWguy

Finished all the changes except the battery expansion.  Need a couple of feed-thru battery posts, didn't have any.  All the stiff wire was replaced with flexible wire.  Remounted the inverter making the wiring a bit easier, and also gave me access to the USB charge ports on the solar charger, so I added a USB charge port.  It's all ready for the new battery, hopefully the end of the week.  Free UPS shipping on Amazon for a 60 pound battery.  Can't beat that.
Before:



After:


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## PeoplesElbow

GWguy said:


> Just have to mindful of not draining a sealed battery beyond 50% or you can permanently damage it.  The more capacity, the less likely that will happen, but too much capacity and they may not fully recharge during the day.



One thing that has  been discovered in the last 20 years or so is that if you don't use the full range of the battery (ie not charge to 100% and discharge past a certain point) that they last much much longer.  So I wouldn't worry too much about your battery not getting a full charge.


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## GWguy

Agree, having read all those tests and charts.  If I'm drawing current overnight and there is a chance I'll deplete the battery, I'd like to start off the evening with a full battery.  If it's not fully charged, it could deplete sooner than I would like.

But again, with the 45Ah battery, I was able to run the fridge for 24 hours.  With the new battery, I might be able to go for 2 days with no recharge, so starting off with a full battery becomes moot.

The new battery will be here today.  I'll set it up , peak the battery and see how long the fridge can actually run with no charge input.


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> If I'm drawing current overnight and there is a chance I'll deplete the battery, I'd like to start off the evening with a full battery.  If it's not fully charged, it could deplete sooner than I would like.


Watch shorter porn movies. They all end the same way anyhow...


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## GWguy

Of course..........


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Of course..........


HTH


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## Kyle

Gilligan said:


> They all end the same way anyhow...



Yep.   

The sink never gets fixed and the Pizza boy never gets paid.


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## GWguy

bow chicka bow bow.....


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## Gilligan

Kyle said:


> Yep.
> 
> The sink never gets fixed and the Pizza boy never gets paid.


Don't forget about the pool boy...


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> Don't forget about the pool boy...


  You guys ruint my thread....


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> You guys ruint my thread....


Just a minor detour. There : patpatpat:..all back on track.


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## Kyle

GWguy said:


> You guys ruint my thread....


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## Gilligan

Please accept my humble apology and this peace offering.....


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> Please accept my humble apology and this peace offering.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 137797


Oh....  are you a fudge packer??


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## GWguy

Must have hit a nerve....

The battery got here and I assembled it into the charger box, but it's too crappy out to set everything up.  It's sitting at 12.9VDC so it needs to be charged before I put any load on it.  

Tomorrow....


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## GWguy

The fridge has now been running 24 hours on battery alone holding 31-32 degrees.  For a lead acid battery, anything 12.6 VDC and above is considered a full 100% charge.  A regular lead acid battery should not drop below 50% charge to avoid damage, that's just over 12.0 VDC.  An AGM deep cycle battery (which is what I am now using) can drop to 30% (11.7 VDC) without damage, although doing that often can shorten it's cycle life.

I started out at 12.7 VDC yesterday after peaking it on the solar charger.  Right now it's at 12.1 VDC under load and 12.4 VDC no load.  12.4 VDC is about 80% remaining charge, 12.1 VDC is about 55% remaining.

Since the run-time load is only a few minutes at low wattage (less than 100 watts), I'm going to let it go down to a no load voltage of 12.0 VDC (about 40%) before calling it quits.


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## Gilligan

Looks like your creation is alive, Dr, Frankenstein! Congrats.


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## GWguy

And for those that will question why I received it at 12.9 VDC, charged it, and started the test at 12.7 VDC...

When under charge, it was actually at about 14.4 VDC.  After coming off charge and going into float, it was sitting at a little over 13VDC.  Once it "settled" and turned on the inverter and pulled a couple of watts load, it showed 12.7 VDC.  Perfectly normal for a lead acid battery.


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> Looks like your creation is alive, Dr, Frankenstein! Congrats.


Thanx.  I'm really pleased with the results.  It's portable, powerful and actually works!


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Thanx.  I'm really pleased with the results.  It's portable, powerful and actually works!


Can I borrow it?  ;-p


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> Can I borrow it?  ;-p


For what porpoise, might I ask?


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## black dog

It will come back missing the running lights...


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## GWguy

That's what I need to add...  colorful RGB LEDs flashing away.    :discobaby:

Now at the 30 hour mark, 12.1 VDC under load, 12.3 VDC no load.  I've got hours yet before getting close to my 12.0 VDC cutoff.


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> For what porpoise, might I ask?


To go sit on the pier and drink beer all day.


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> To go sit on the pier and drink beer all day.


 Admirable cause, Admiral.


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## black dog

Gilligan said:


> To go sit on the pier and drink beer all day.


I thought you had a Hill Monkey as a personal slave for errands like that?  You must have let him in the house to much.


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## GWguy

Just out of curiosity, is anyone interested in a wiring diagram or parts list?  Just give this a "like" if you might.


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## GWguy

Ok, hold back the overwhelming requests!!!!  I concede!!!  Here ya go!!!!  Now get off my back!!


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## GWguy

36 hours.  11.9 VDC under load/12.2 VDC no load.  It's still in the "safe" range for this battery, but the charger is giving me a frowny face.  It will probably drop below my target sometime overnight, so I just pulled the plug.  I think I've proven the point.  It didn't make 2x the duration of the smaller battery like I expected, but it's really kind of moot.  Once I hook up the solar panel again, it will run indefinitely.

Tomorrow I'll see how well it can charge in overcast/rainy weather.


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## GWguy

Charging at very modest 14 VDC @ .3A, or 4.2 watts from the solar panel.  Not much at all, but I expect it to get a bit better as the morning progresses.


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Charging at very modest 14 VDC @ .3A, or 4.2 watts from the solar panel.  Not much at all, but I expect it to get a bit better as the morning progresses.


Buy a good grow lamp, hook it up to the battery, and shine it on the solar panel.   That will speed up charging.


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> Buy a good grow lamp, hook it up to the battery, and shine it on the solar panel.   That will speed up charging.


That's a great idea!!







....wait....

That reminds me of a bunch of YouTube vids I've seen lately, where they claim to be able to power motors and lights with "free power".


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## GWguy

GWguy said:


> Charging at very modest 14 VDC @ .3A, or 4.2 watts from the solar panel.  Not much at all, but I expect it to get a bit better as the morning progresses.


Up to 20 watts now.  Considering the heavy overcast and rain, I'm surprised to get this much this early.


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## GURPS

GWguy said:


> That's a great idea!!
> ....wait....




     someone does not understand physics and entropy


----------



## Gilligan

GURPS said:


> someone does not understand physics and entropy



I'm quite sure GW does though.... ;-)


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## GWguy

GURPS said:


> someone does not understand physics and entropy





Gilligan said:


> I'm quite sure GW does though.... ;-)


Perpetual motion is obtainable.


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## GWguy

GWguy said:


> Up to 20 watts now.  Considering the heavy overcast and rain, I'm surprised to get this much this early.


Battery is at 12.8 VDC, charging at 3.4A, 44 watts.  Not bad.


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## GWguy

Battery is now, for all intents, fully charged in a few cloudy hours.  When the sun does peak out, it charges at over 14 VDC and 15 amps, well over 200 watts.  Outstanding.

So a few hours of charge, even on a cloudy day, will get me at least a full day/night of refrigeration.


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## black dog

Nice job..


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## GWguy

black dog said:


> Nice job..


Thank You.  It was/is a fun project.  I learned a lot.


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## GWguy

Well, first major component fail.  Sometime overnight, the AIMS inverter quit.  I don't have time to do forensics this morning, maybe this afternoon.


----------



## GURPS

Cheap Chinese Junk


----------



## Kyle

GURPS said:


> Cheap Chinese Junk



Somebodys buying a boat?


----------



## GWguy

GURPS said:


> Cheap Chinese Junk


It's an American company in the mid west, but obvious from the instructions that it has overseas origins.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

GURPS said:


> Cheap Chinese Korean Junk



FIFY


----------



## GWguy

Yeah, there's a Made in China sticker on the bottom.

It's dead, Jim....

Put it on the bench, won't power up, no indicator lights, no USB power, no fuses available from the outside.  Just wrote an email to tech support.


----------



## GURPS

That is Unfortunate


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Just wrote an email to tech support.


Cue the indian tech support jokes...


----------



## GWguy

Got an RMA, gave the box to UPS Ground last Friday for shipment to Reno NV.  Made it's way to Laurel, MD, then to Gaithersburg where it sat for 2 days.  And then got shipped BACK to Laurel where it sat for another day.    Last status is 'shipped' from Laurel, but to who knows where.  Supposed to arrive Friday this week.

The AIMS inverter was rated for 1000Watts continuous, 2000W surge.  According to tech support, that 2000W surge is 40 milliseconds max.  On surge I draw 1200W for maybe a second, then 100W continuous for a few minutes.  If it's rated for 1000W continuous, you think it could handle a few seconds at 1200W, if it's capable of max surge of 2000W.  Tech support thinks I need a bigger unit.  I'd like to hear what the failure was first.  If that's how inverters are rated, then maybe I need a 1500W continuous unit just to cover the surge.  Just means a few more watts used when the unit is on and idle.

In the meantime, I can hook up the cheapo inverter I have.  It's only 750W continuous, 1500W surge, but didn't have any problems for weeks under the same load.


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## Gilligan

Yr gonna be easy to find at any campground. Just need to look for the smoke and follow the smell of burnt electronics.


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## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> Yr gonna be easy to find at any campground. Just need to look for the smoke and follow the smell of burnt electronics.


I think it will be a lot easier than that.  I mean....  a bright red Slingshot pulling a dayglo green trailer with a 4x6 solar panel out front?


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## Gilligan

Me: [muttering to myself].." Gee..I know GW is around here someplace.....oh..wait..there he is!"


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## GWguy

Yeah.... I'd like to see one of your windmills do that.  I strive to impress.


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Yeah.... I'd like to see one of your windmills do that.  I strive to impress.


We're workin' on that...


----------



## GWguy

Glad I have the cheapo inverter.  Working like a champ.  I put some bottles of frozen water in the fridge 3 days ago, they're still frozen.


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## GWguy

The inverter got to it's destination yesterday.  5-10 days to repair, then return shipping.

In the meantime, the cheapo inverter is doing it's job.  The whole system has been running since the 17th.  With the new battery, the voltage never drops below 12.6VDC overnight, which for a lead acid battery is considered still fully charged, and peaks up by noon, sun or cloudy.  The frozen water bottles I put in are still rock hard frozen on the bottom of the fridge, the soda bottles one rack up are not frozen, but when you crack the seal, they crystallize.  Perfect temp for soda.


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## GURPS

GWguy said:


> Perfect temp for soda.





I always enjoyed when my beer did this as well.


----------



## GWguy

Got an email, the inverter is en route back already.  Hoping they include a diagnostic repair sheet or something, curious what failed.  I'm thinking an internal fuse or something very easily replaced.


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Hoping they include a diagnostic repair sheet or something, curious what failed.  I'm thinking an internal fuse or something very easily replaced.



..if not, just drop it by the shop and that SGI feller that claims to be a genu..geeni..genw...really smart feller about all things electronic could take a look at it for ya.




Then he declares it irreparable.


Then he fixes it.


Then I have the first component for my copy build of your system.


----------



## Kyle

Gilligan said:


> ..if not, just drop it by the shop and that SGI feller that claims to be a genu..geeni..genw...really smart feller about all things electronic could take a look at it for ya.
> 
> Then he declares it irreparable.
> 
> Then he fixes it.



So... He's Scotty?


----------



## GWguy

They shipped a brand new unit, did not repair the old one.  Hope to get it installed in the next day or so.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

GWguy said:


> They shipped a brand new unit, did not repair the old one.  Hope to get it installed in the next day or so.



You must have done a number on the old one.


----------



## GWguy

Finally got 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
.

Everything is back together and online.  Going to let it run and see how it holds up.


----------



## GWguy

GWguy said:


> They shipped a brand new unit, did not repair the old one.


I might have a clue as to why the first inverter failed.  The fan never turned on.  I just assumed it never got to the fan trigger point of 65*C, it was relatively cool to the touch.  The fan turns on with the new one.  I'm thinking the fan was broked and the unit burned up internally, even tho it didn't feel warm.


----------



## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> I might have a clue as to why the first inverter failed.  The fan never turned on.  I just assumed it never got to the fan trigger point of 65*C, it was relatively cool to the touch.  The fan turns on with the new one.  I'm thinking the fan was broked and the unit burned up internally, even tho it didn't feel warm.


...and so down goes the conversion efficiency too. Be interesting to see by how much..


----------



## GWguy

Gilligan said:


> ...and so down goes the conversion efficiency too. Be interesting to see by how much..


Probably going down a bit, but the battery recovers so quickly in daylight that it's negligible.  Decided not to even keep track at this point.  It's working far better than I had ever hoped, and that's good enough for me.

No doubt now that the 1st unit failed because of a non-working fan and overheated.  This one turns on often, and in the late afternoon/evening the temp in the garage is hot enough to make the fans turn on with no load.  The 1st unit fans never turned on.


----------



## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Probably going down a bit, but the battery recovers so quickly in daylight that it's negligible.  Decided not to even keep track at this point.  It's working far better than I had ever hoped, and that's good enough for me.
> 
> No doubt now that the 1st unit failed because of a non-working fan and overheated.  This one turns on often, and in the late afternoon/evening the temp in the garage is hot enough to make the fans turn on with no load.  The 1st unit fans never turned on.


You should mount a small windmill on the trailer.

Just to make me happy.


----------



## GWguy

When I was traveling thru Arkansas a few weeks ago, I saw a number of blades on trailers.  Each one seemed to be bigger than the previous, until I saw one that took up 2 trailers hooked in tandem, probably 50 feet each.

Oh...and....


----------



## GWguy

So, one more experiment.
Can a solar panel make power from a full moon?

Yes.  My panel generates 1.2VDC (loaded) from just the moon.  It's not enough to trigger the charge circuits, but there is some power available.

And BTW, the solar system has been powering the fridge/freezer non-stop with no interruptions since mid-July.  I've had bottles of water in the bottom that are frozen solid.


----------



## nutz

I received a flyer in the mail to purchase a Tesla home battery. No specs or prices included. After doing a little looking, the Powerwall comes in 7K or 10K versions starting around 6500 plus installation.  I wonder if this is the power pack Solar City prewires for?


----------



## GWguy

Don't know, haven't really done much looking into large scale batteries.  If you're interested, this guy does a lot with Tesla products and builds his own Powerwalls.








						jehugarcia
					

Hi I'm Jehu, I create Videos, I make electric cars, and now Im making DIYPowerwall projects. Advertise on my channel http://www.archimedes.agency/#influencers




					www.youtube.com


----------



## Chris0nllyn

nutz said:


> I received a flyer in the mail to purchase a Tesla home battery. No specs or prices included. After doing a little looking, the Powerwall comes in 7K or 10K versions starting around 6500 plus installation.  I wonder if this is the power pack Solar City prewires for?



Since Solar City is a subsidiary of Tesla, it's most likely the same thing.


----------



## BOP

Yooper said:


> It's the bodies. Have to be able to haul them to a more remote place!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wood chipper.
> 
> 
> 
> (Dear forum reader, I hope you realize this is a joke! You know, Fargo?)
> 
> --- End of line (MCP)


Follow me for more tips.


----------

