# Wind Farms in Somerset County



## hitchicken

Governor O'Malley has recently vetoed a bill that would have delayed the construction of a wind farm in nearby Somerset County.  Everyone is probably aware this will affect radar testing at Pax River Navy base.  The plan is to turn the wind turbines on and off when such tests take place.  Yeah, that should raise a red flag to our spying enemies.  But I regard wind farms as problematic in other areas as well.

1.  Wind turbine blades kill bald and golden eagles by the thousands.  Thanks to new legislation, they will be able to do so legally.  You can probably add ospreys as well.  (That should rid us of those pesky little national symbols.)
2.  Wind turbine blades produce a low frequency beating that can be felt and affects humans, bats and some animals.
3.  Shadows of whirling blades falling across homes have driven some people nearly insane.
4.  Manufacture, construction, maintenance & decommissioning costs of wind turbines make them cost ineffective over their life span.  They are not green.
5.  If you have a TV antenna, kiss your reception good-bye.

O'Malley has implied that this wind farm will mitigate rising water that would flood the base.  Somebody needs to get a grip.

I realize there was an earlier thread regarding this issue, but I was unable to find it.  I started a new one.  Sorry.

Please, get and watch "Windfall" if you have the time.  I think it is on Amazon Instant Video.  It's a couple of bucks rental but worth it.


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## Gilligan

hitchicken said:


> 4.  Manufacture, construction, maintenance & decommissioning costs of wind turbines make them cost ineffective over their life span.  They are not green.
> 
> .



This is especially true for offshore turbines. The levelized cost of energy from those is 4-5 times that of about any "traditional" electrical generation plant option.


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## TimTheToolMan

But, But, But

It's Green energy, and it will cost us less money!

It's much cheaper than how we get energy now!


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## intertidal

The issue with the radar interference has to do with the vibrations and their frequencies. However, the massive Cove Point liquefaction compressors will produce very similar vibrations. Yet the local pols support Dominion's plans - despite the serious risks to residents. Perhaps the essential difference in political acceptance between the two plans is really more about political "donations" and lobbying activity.


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## Gilligan

intertidal said:


> The issue with the radar interference has to do with the vibrations and their frequencies. However, the massive Cove Point liquefaction compressors will produce very similar vibrations. .



Link?  And what are the "serious risks" that you speak of?


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## GWguy

intertidal said:


> The issue with the radar interference has to do with the vibrations and their frequencies.



There may be some truth to this.  I know when I was designing cellular repeaters on base near the flight line, it was clear that the rotary wings caused havoc with reception.


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## intertidal

Gilligan said:


> Link?  And what are the "serious risks" that you speak of?



You need a link that compressors produce vibrations? LOL

I guess there's no risk - unless you care about the exposure of families to tons of over 100 different carcinogens. And the fires that have been in the news lately for much simpler and "safe" gassification facilities- that is all fiction from the liberal media?

Name one other dense residential area with a liquefaction plant - in the world.


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## Gilligan

intertidal said:


> You need a link that compressors produce vibrations? LOL
> 
> I guess there's no risk - unless you care about the exposure of families to tons of over 100 different carcinogens. And the fires that have been in the news lately for much simpler and "safe" gassification facilities- that is all fiction from the liberal media?
> 
> Name one other dense residential area with a liquefaction plant - in the world.



You spouted a bunch of bogus enviro-nut talking points. I care less than zero about those. So,yes, links with factual and substantiated data are what I asked for.

I've worked for over 30 years with gas turbine and compressor engineering. 

You?


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> There may be some truth to this.  I know when I was designing cellular repeaters on base near the flight line, it was clear that the rotary wings caused havoc with reception.



Wings (airfoils) shed vortices...those vortices have a rather remarkable "life span" and affect the space far downstream, flow wise, from their actual location. Any radar system that is Doppler based will be affected by that, to some degree. That physical phenomenon is not present in any shore-based prime movers or anything they drive.


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## Merlin99

intertidal said:


> The issue with the radar interference has to do with the vibrations and their frequencies. However, the massive Cove Point liquefaction compressors will produce very similar vibrations. Yet the local pols support Dominion's plans - despite the serious risks to residents. Perhaps the essential difference in political acceptance between the two plans is really more about political "donations" and lobbying activity.


Someone lied to you if you think windmill vibes are an issue. The problem is that the windmills have a huge radar cross section (RCS) and they show up like a rockfish swimming with a school of minnows.


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## Merlin99

GWguy said:


> There may be some truth to this.  I know when I was designing cellular repeaters on base near the flight line, it was clear that the rotary wings caused havoc with reception.


You had the same problem as the radars will, but it's got nothing to do with vibrations. You've got a rotating reflecting surface scattering the signal.


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## GWguy

Merlin99 said:


> You had the same problem as the radars will, but it's got nothing to do with vibrations. You've got a rotating reflecting surface scattering the signal.



Yes.  Exactly.  I interpreted 'vibrations' as 'interference patterns'.


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## Gilligan

GWguy said:


> Yes.  Exactly.  I interpreted 'vibrations' as 'interference patterns'.



Yep. What shed vortices and Karman streets cause...   Not that the "enviro papparazi" would have the slightest clue.


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## Ken King

Merlin99 said:


> You had the same problem as the radars will, but it's got nothing to do with vibrations. *You've got a rotating reflecting surface scattering the signal.*



  Yep, they will generate "turbine clutter". And with the turbines being in the 600 foot tall range they have about a 40 mile line of sight range to a radar at 50 feet, so they will definitely impact radars at Pax.


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## MMDad

intertidal said:


> The issue with the radar interference has to do with the vibrations and their frequencies. However, the massive Cove Point liquefaction compressors will produce very similar vibrations. Yet the local pols support Dominion's plans - despite the serious risks to residents. Perhaps the essential difference in political acceptance between the two plans is really more about political "donations" and lobbying activity.



As someone who has worked with radar for more than 30 years, I can tell you that you are 100% clueless. You could have 10,000 chicks light off their BOBs at once and it would not affect radar in the least.


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## intertidal

Moral of story - don't repeat what someone tells ya'. 
My final post.


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## GURPS

intertidal said:


> Moral of story - don't repeat what someone tells ya'.
> My final post.





oh you can quote several of the posters in this thread, they are Engineers


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## kwillia

And this sort of interference from the wind turbine generators is what has Central City, PA in an uproar over the windfarms affecting their farms, wildlife and human health...

Kay Armstrong, who lives near a wind farm in Ontario, Canada, has reported that her home is now “virtually uninhabitable” due to the infrasound from the turbines disturbing her sleep and making her feel dizzy. She also says that local deer are agitated and awake all night, that birds are flying around all day rather than going to roost, and that seals in the area are suffering miscarriages.

In another instance in Canada, an emu farm had to close after its animals started becoming aggressive and losing weight when wind turbines were installed nearby. Something similar happened in Taiwan in 2009, when about 400 goats died from exhaustion due to being unable to sleep thanks to noise from a nearby wind farm.

An academic study from Portugal also blamed wind turbines for deformities in foals born nearby, while an Australian vet said working dogs living near a wind farm were exhibiting unusual behaviour, often refusing to work or even get out of their kennels.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...Linked-to-Wind-Turbines-near-Danish-Mink-Farm


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## migtig

All I know is I wouldn't want to live near wind turbines.  :shrug:  And that's a fact, Jack.


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## GWguy

kwillia said:


> She also says that local deer are agitated and awake all night, that birds are flying around all day rather than going to roost,



  Deer are nocturnal.  They don't sleep much at night.  Birds are usually awake during the day to feed, except owls and such.


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## MADPEBS1

Merlin99 said:


> Someone lied to you if you think windmill vibes are an issue. The problem is that the windmills have a huge radar cross section (RCS) and they show up like a rockfish swimming with a school of minnows.



that is the ISSUE, and it will hurt a huge part of NAVAIR testing that only is done here.....


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## Gilligan

Meanwhile...In VA, only the two-turbine pilot project looks to be going ahead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dominion-virginia-power-wont-build-offshore-wind-farm-on-tract-it-leased-unless-cost-drops/2013/09/14/4b11661e-1cc8-11e3-82ef-a059e54c49d0_story.html


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## glhs837

So, the meat of it is, "We know it's not feasible to make power this way efficiently, but if you want us to spend a lot of govt dollars proving that, why sure, we would be glad to."


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> So, the meat of it is, "We know it's not feasible to make power this way efficiently, but if you want us to spend a lot of govt dollars proving that, why sure, we would be glad to."



Ed Zachary.


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## stgislander

Can anyone explain how Mikulski's comments about the wind turbines in the recent BayNet article (http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/38221), identifies her as a key supporter of Pax River?  I don't speak government-ese, so all I hear her saying is wait until the MIT study is complete before doing anything.


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## Curious99

1. Wind turbine blades kill bald and golden eagles by the thousands. Thanks to new legislation, they will be able to do so legally. You can probably add ospreys as well. (That should rid us of those pesky little national symbols.)
 2. Wind turbine blades produce a low frequency beating that can be felt and affects humans, bats and some animals.
 3. Shadows of whirling blades falling across homes have driven some people nearly insane.
 4. Manufacture, construction, maintenance & decommissioning costs of wind turbines make them cost ineffective over their life span. They are not green.
 5. If you have a TV antenna, kiss your reception good-bye.







kwillia said:


> And this sort of interference from the wind turbine generators is what has Central City, PA in an uproar over the windfarms affecting their farms, wildlife and human health...
> 
> Kay Armstrong, who lives near a wind farm in Ontario, Canada, has reported that her home is now “virtually uninhabitable” due to the infrasound from the turbines disturbing her sleep and making her feel dizzy. She also says that local deer are agitated and awake all night, that birds are flying around all day rather than going to roost, and that seals in the area are suffering miscarriages.
> 
> In another instance in Canada, an emu farm had to close after its animals started becoming aggressive and losing weight when wind turbines were installed nearby. Something similar happened in Taiwan in 2009, when about 400 goats died from exhaustion due to being unable to sleep thanks to noise from a nearby wind farm.
> 
> An academic study from Portugal also blamed wind turbines for deformities in foals born nearby, while an Australian vet said working dogs living near a wind farm were exhibiting unusual behaviour, often refusing to work or even get out of their kennels.
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...Linked-to-Wind-Turbines-near-Danish-Mink-Farm



The birds and bat problems are well documented. Other than anecdotal, are there creditable links for the rest of this?


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## mamatutu

We passed a wind farm in PA this past weekend.  Only 2 or 3 of a couple dozen were turning.  I don't claim to understand wind farms, but why would only some/few be turning?  And it only makes sense that these wind mills are detrimental to birds, and other flying creatures.


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## Gilligan

Some hopeful signs that the Maryland offshore wind farm project will soon die the death it deserves.

http://www.somdnews.com/article/20141003/NEWS/141009597/1074/bohanan-calls-wind-turbine-project-x2018-dead-x2019&template=southernMaryland


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## MADPEBS1

look like they're back !!!

http://www.thebaynet.com/articles/0617/plansareunderwayforoffshorewindfarmsinmaryland.html

Right across from the base. Wicomico county.


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## glhs837

Wonder if Governor Hogan can put a stop to it, or if wont due to it not being worth his political capital. Also wonder in Trump era Feds might not disapprove of it.


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## MADPEBS1

pretty sure NAVAIR put in their two cents to not build there, We'll see If Trump cares as much as he says about defense.


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> Wonder if Governor Hogan can put a stop to it, or if wont due to it not being worth his political capital. Also wonder in Trump era Feds might not disapprove of it.



There has a been a sudden burst of activity in the infant large offshore wind farm activity in along the eastern coast, with several of the major players in European and Scandinavian wind energy sector winning the lease auctions here in the US. MD, NJ, NY all let major offshore tracts.


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## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> There has a been a sudden burst of activity in the infant large offshore wind farm activity in along the eastern coast, with several of the major players in European and Scandinavian wind energy sector winning the lease auctions here in the US. MD, NJ, NY all let major offshore tracts.




Dem states trying to lock in stuff contractually so the TrumpFed cant block them?


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> Dem states trying to lock in stuff contractually so the TrumpFed cant block them?



I see no evidence of that. What I see are seriously experienced foreign operators coming here to buy up US offshore leases and set up big wind farms...for real.  I have to admit I didn't think that would happen...


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## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> I see no evidence of that. What I see are seriously experienced foreign operators coming here to buy up US offshore leases and set up big wind farms...for real.  I have to admit I didn't think that would happen...



Can those guys hack it if subsidies go away?


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> Can those guys hack it if subsidies go away?



That is exactly what they are banking on. This is real money..not the totally wasted crap that has characterized all US offshore wind farm activity to this point. The reductions in operational overheads they've achieved in Europe the last few years are nothing short of stunning...defied all predictions.


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## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> That is exactly what they are banking on. This is real money..not the totally wasted crap that has characterized all US offshore wind farm activity to this point. The reductions in operational overheads they've achieved in Europe the last few years are nothing short of stunning...defied all predictions.



Sustainable, though? Long term maint upkeep, that sort of thing?


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> Sustainable, though? Long term maint upkeep, that sort of thing?



There certainly are maintenance issues to deal with. Turbine blade leading edge erosion is one that bedevils the industry a great deal. The machines are complex.   But it's still a "fledgling" industry even where it's huge, in Europe. So the truly long-term issues are yet to be shown..

We don't want them to become "too reliable"...our business is supplying equipment to the vessels that cart the maintenance and repair crews around. ;-)


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## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> There certainly are maintenance issues to deal with. Turbine blade leading edge erosion is one that bedevils the industry a great deal. The machines are complex.   But it's still a "fledgling" industry even where it's huge, in Europe. *So the truly long-term issues are yet to be shown.*.
> 
> We don't want them to become "too reliable"...our business is supplying equipment to the vessels that cart the maintenance and repair crews around. ;-)






I see. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/...ffshore-wind-subsidy-dong-energy.html?mcubz=1


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## Wishbone

Need to develop a power generation station using this design.

Power it with deposed democrats.


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> I see.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/...ffshore-wind-subsidy-dong-energy.html?mcubz=1



You "see" what?


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## glhs837

Gilligan said:


> You "see" what?



That long term viability hinges on some assumptions that I'm not sure will pan out. Price changes, delivery from makers of larger turbines, either of these are gambles. I get gambles, I do. But i'm not sure these are ones I would be making.


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## Gilligan

glhs837 said:


> That long term viability hinges on some assumptions that I'm not sure will pan out. Price changes, delivery from makers of larger turbines, either of these are gambles. I get gambles, I do. But i'm not sure these are ones I would be making.



Already old news though. The Europeans and Scandinavians are already *very *far along this path, soon approaching 12,000 offshore turbines in service. *12,000*...as compared to the sad little grossly overpriced and lame effort off Block Island that is all we have to point to.

The gambles were made long ago "over there", the results are proving to be positive, and now those same players are the ones investing in offshore leases "over here".

Will offshore wind ever be truly "cheap" power compared to coal and NG?..highly unlikely. But the LCOE for offshore wind has dropped so much in the last few years that it is competitive with nuclear power, for example.

Energy storage still remains as the largest technical hurdle for both wind and solar...


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## Gilligan

Things sure are moving fast in this industry. Even on the pesky storage issues!

http://newenergyupdate.com/wind-energy-update/us-wind-prices-hit-20mwh-deepwater-bids-144-mw-offshore-wind-battery-project?utm_campaign=NEP%20WIN%2016AUG17%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&elqTrackId=d4ee492249534c99ad5f9aaabf3449bc&elq=1c2907c3817e47d599b1b9c4b16e7f3e&elqaid=30009&elqat=1&elqCampaignId=14526


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