# And last but not least - history!



## DeeJay

@Kyle


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## Kyle

Thank you again.


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## Gilligan




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## Gilligan

Awesome. Finally have the perfect place to extol upon the virtues and glorious history of the CSA prior to it's untimely and tragic defeat in the War of Northern Aggression.

@DeeJay


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## Gilligan

The most fundamental factor most often understood by people who try to judge people from those times using the lens of today is that individuals personal loyalties were to their states first. The more recently formed Federal government came second.


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## phreddyp

Not too hard to understand when you consider we are a Republic and not a Democracy .


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## Ken King

SailorGirl said:


> So what say you - were confederate generals traitors?


No, they were just more loyal to their State.  We used to say the United States "are", now we say the United States "is".  The nation was once a collection of independent states.


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## Gilligan

phreddyp said:


> Not too hard to understand when you consider we are a Republic and not a Democracy .



Yep..and a Republic with some member states who agreed only reluctantly to join that union only 73 years earlier..


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## jrt_ms1995

Ken King said:


> We used to say the United States "are", now we say the United States "is".


I still say that (and you probably do, too).


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## Ken King

SailorGirl said:


> Excuse my stupidity as you so often do, but could you provide something specific on that?  Was that a dumb question?


Wouldn't call it stupid or dumb.  Upon the founding of the nation state sovereignty and independence were key matters.  Article 2 of the Articles of Confederation states "_Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled._"  The Constitution, initially silent on this matter, had to include the restrictions of the Bill of Rights upon the Government to secure ratification by the States.  Of these restrictions is the 10th Amendment that states, "_The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."  _Thus those things not explicitly included within the Constitution are retained by the individual States (or the people).  As an example, seceding from the Union is not covered within the Constitution, so it should, no it must, be a legal authority of the State/s.


SailorGirl said:


> Ohhhhh plural vs singular - sorry I must have read too much into it.  My apologies.


Actually, that wasn't my point.


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## Ken King

SailorGirl said:


> So generally speaking when Lee resigned he was fighting for southern states rights and Virginia


Lee stated, when offered command of a new army to force the seceding states back into the Union, that  “_could take no part in an invasion of the Southern states._”  He explained this to his sister, Anne Marshall, this way "_Now we are in a state of war, which will yield to nothing. The whole South is in a state of revolution…and though I recognize no necessity for this state of things, and would have forborne and pleaded to the end for redress of grievances, real or supposed…I had to meet the question whether I should take part against my native state.

With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have, therefore, resigned my commission in the Army, and, save in defense of my native state, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword_."


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> There's a good argument that would make my brother crazy.  Lol.  Thank you for taking the  time Ken.  So generally speaking when Lee resigned he was fighting for southern states rights and Virginia and had the right to do so.



Lee's service record and service to the fledgling republic were remarkable for their breadth and depth, prior to resigning. He certainly did not look forward to facing so many of his former officers and friends on an opposing side in the field of battle. But again...loyalties were to states and the general consensus by many of those states was that the Federal government was..or was going to...overstep it's authority.  As it turned out, Lincoln took quite a number of anti-Constitutional actions and set some unfortunate precedents that we're still paying  a price for today.

Another thing that's lost on non-historians...the CSA did not suddenly spring in to being and declare war. Quite the opposite, in fact...there were states that seceded simply expecting to be able to do that peacefully and just be left alone to go their way. Some were very reluctant to join the new Confederacy because they were like "WTF?..are you kidding?..we just went to all the trouble of leaving one".

There are written records of the astonishment and consternation expressed by many southern leaders when Ft. Sumter was attacked; many thought that was very foolish and rash..a very poorly considered and unecessarily provocative action.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> I was quite surprised at how angry I got with my brother when he said Lee should have been hung.  He's a little on the smug side and has a lot of professor friends which is what I think he was repeating.  Everything I've ever read about Lee, everything I was taught - and probably all my learning years where I really retained were in Virginia.  I have no doubt that he loved Virginia and his intentions were out of that love.  If you think about how much it must have taken to form this country and make it what it is - it boggles your mind.  And to have a what you consider a worthwhile position to fight for - tough people back then.



Lee was, later in life, my GG Grandfather's headmaster at Washington College in Lexington, VA. My GG grandfather was the youngest of four brothers (from Alabama) and the only one of them that survived the war.   Another, more distant, relative of mine was killed by friendly fire; had he lived the outcome at Gettysburg might have been different (a conjectural topic covered in depth by many historians). His name was Thomas J. Jackson.

It's become quite popular now, particularly in the academic circles, to distort or redefine the history of that era in order to erase it.  I guess we've come full circle..it was popular back in the day to glorify actions and behaviors - an entire "southern" way of life even - in ways that were not accurate or valid.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Stonewall?   You're distantly related to Stonewall Jackson?  You have an amazing family history.  One day Gilligan - really want to just sit with you and drink beer and hear your family stories.



I'm descended most directly to this fella..who was also George Washington's first true biographer in addition to being a Chief Justice.  The Jackson connection is a separate branch of the tree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall

My great aunt..the grand daughter of my GG grandfather I described earlier, passed away just short of her 101st birthday. She was always the de-facto family historian. Interestingly too...she qualified for (had to be directly related to someone who fought) and was a lifetime member of both the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) and the United Daughters of the Confederacy.  LOL. She saw no conflict in that..and neither do I.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Is there another keeper of the family history besides you?  Are your kids interested?  This stuff is too rich to not be remembered.



Oh yes...couple of cousins or second cousins in Tennessee and Alabama are really in to keeping everything up to date. We still have the original family "estate" property in Alabama too...but the mansion house burned in the mid 1960s, the original 100% cedar log home (first significant building put on the property in the mid 1800s*) was sold to a pencil company in the 50s and the 2-story frame home still remaining had a minor fire in the late 60s but was never repaired or reoccupied and is a rotten pile of debris now.  The large limestone quarry that my great grandfather ran is a "lake" now..

* My GGG grandfather built a false wall along the inside of the log home - it sat on a high ridge and  faced the valley where an old highway used to be. They called it the "military road" later on; it's gone now, replaced by state Hwy 43 which moved various sections including the one that went through Isbell. He did that so he could spy on, and report,  Union troop movements without it being obvious what he was able to see - and up to -  if anyone showed up searched the house.

I could literally have the entire property if I wanted it, just for the asking.  One of my cousins has been paying the small annual property tax bill on it (80 acres in the middle of nowhere Alabama with no structures on it..taxes are cheap).  During our last reunion it was made clear that whoever wanted to take it over was more than welcome to.  But the missus isn't having anything to do with moving to a place that's just as hot and humid as it is here...LOL.

It will end up being sold soon, probably. My cousin that takes care of the taxes etc is in her 70s. Won't bring much...and I'll get 1/5 of the proceeds. Might keep me in beer for a few months.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Amazing Gilligan - I bet your family reunions are epic.



Well...perhaps...but they occur so very seldom. The last one was in 2010 and the "host" local family had to hire people to come in and chop down trees to even gain access to the old family graveyard..had to bush hog and cut small trees to even get to the quarry lake where we put my grandmother's and her sister's ashes in that day.







The last standing family mansion..and its in really bad shape. Jam packed with an amazing array of antiques though...


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> That's breathtaking!  What kind of shape is the interior in?


Sad..very sad. The old mansion is crumbling around them and they have no money to do needed repairs. It was once magnificent..I have a newspaper clipping from a long article done for a social column in a north Alabama newspaper back in the 50s when the place and all it's contents were still in their glory.

The current family owner is has ""IV" at the end of his name and his 30-something son has "V" at the end of his. Them aristocratic types sure liked to pass their names on...LOL.

But I'm one to talk...my father was a "III" and I would have been a "IV" had they not decided to name me also after my uncle the West Point grad who was killed leading the charge in the first "hamburger hill" in Korea. So my middle name is different...no "IV" for me.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Yeah but you have your own Cupbearer and that makes you royalty and you own your very own island.  You can tell beautiful it must have been - what's the water - is it waterfront or a lake of some sort?



That's the old limestone quarry. They fill back up with water when they are abandoned. The railroad tracks still run through the property where they loaded the stone for shipment. Some of the most beautiful government and commercial buildings in Russellville and Muscle Shoals were built with limestone from that quarry.

It's very deep...and in the bottom are the old quarry machines still.


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## Sneakers

Gilligan said:


> It's very deep...and in the bottom are the bodies still.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Oh yeah you mentioned that..  Can you swim in it?


Absolutely.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Nice


No skinny dipping allowed though..old conservative southern family and all..


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> What's the point in swimming then if you're not neked.


To avoid member embarrassment.


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## Merlin99

SailorGirl said:


> Is that what we're calling it now?  Water's probably cold enough to drive it back in it's shell anyway.


jeez lady, keep it in your pants.


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## Gilligan

SailorGirl said:


> Is that what we're calling it now?  Water's probably cold enough to drive it back in it's shell anyway.


Yep...very cold..


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