# Jesus is either the biggest fraud in history or He is exactly who He claims to be.



## 2ndAmendment

I want you to know that I post what I post because I love people, not because I hate them.



> DAILY DEVOTIONAL    TUESDAY JUNE 7, 2005
> (1 Corinthians 15)
> 
> Why the exposure of Watergate's "deepthroat" is important to a Christian. For political and history buffs, the identity of the infamous "deepthroat," that mysterious high level anonymous source of inside information about the early '70s scandal that ultimately led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon, has been one of the best kept secrets ever. Over the past 3 decades, there has been tremendous speculation who "deepthroat" was, with only a handful of people knowing the answer to that great mystery. Last week, Mark Felt, the former number two man at the FBI during the early '70s admitted to being "deepthroat." As I watched the news coverage unfold over the past week, I couldn't help but to think how this one isolated event in American history strengthened the case for the Christian faith.
> 
> Every person comes to faith in Christ in a different way, for different reasons. Once you are saved, as you grow and mature in your faith there is usually some point in that maturation process that you can look back on and say, "that is the moment that I knew, that I knew, that I knew it was all true. Jesus is who He says He is and God's Word is the Truth." Again, that happens in different ways, at different times for each person. For me, it actually happened as I was going through my seminary education during a course on the resurrection. It hit me like a ton of bricks that if the resurrection of Jesus Christ really happened, it was all true.
> 
> The reason the resurrection of Jesus is the greatest historical event is because it is the absolute key to our faith. Paul said in his first letter to the church at Corinth in the 15th chapter, that if Christ did not rise from the dead, then we are still dead in our sin and most vain of all. However, if He did rise from the dead, then we have the assurance that our sins are forgiven and of everlasting life. You see, Jesus is either the biggest fraud in the history of mankind or He
> is exactly who He claims to be...the Son of God.  The resurrection is the key event.
> 
> The historical evidence of Christ's resurrection is irrefutable. The fact that He died on a Roman cross, the claims of His followers seeing the risen Lord, evidence of the empty tomb, the inability of the Jewish leaders to disprove the resurrection claims in the very city Jesus died and was buried, and the radical transformation in the lives of His disciples are all well documented. You also have Jesus' own predictions of His resurrection as well as the fact that soon after was the birth of the Christian church that started meeting on Sunday. That is significant since these were monotheistic Jews who were used to worshipping on Saturday.
> 
> I want to use the story of Watergate's "deepthroat" to zero in on one of the arguments people make to try and prove the resurrection never really happened. One explanation given by those who reject the reality of Christ's resurrection is that His disciples stole His body and disposed of it somehow. That sounds like a reasonable theory to explain the FACT that Christ's body was no longer in the tomb where He was buried.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many times have you ever been to a cemetery and seen guards at someone's gravesite? The reason there were guards at the tomb of Jesus was because the Jewish leaders were afraid that His disciples or followers would steal His body and then claim that He had been resurrected. Don't forget, they knew that Christ had prophesied His resurrection and they wanted to make sure nobody would come to steal His body so His prophecy would appear to come true.
> 
> For the sake of argument, let's say that those sympathetic to Jesus did somehow manage to steal His body. This means there would have been a certain number of people who knew that He did not rise from the dead as He had said He would, and that for them to claim He did was an outright lie. It would have meant those who really knew the truth would have had to keep their mouths shut and never tell anyone what really happened. My friend, conspiracies like this never work. At some point they unravel, the truth always comes out.
> 
> There is no way those who would have been part of this conspiracy, those who knew the truth would have been able to keep this secret for very long, especially due to the fact people were dying because of their belief that Christ had indeed risen from the dead. PEOPLE WILL LIVE FOR A KNOWN LIE, BUT PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO DIE FOR A KNOWN LIE! These very people who would have been part of this conspiracy would be literally giving their very life for what they knew to be a lie. Again, people will live for a known lie, but they aren't going to die for a known lie!
> 
> Lastly, look at the lives of the men who followed Jesus. These men were transformed from meek followers of our Lord who when it really counted, ran out of fear for their lives, to some of the most bold and powerful leaders of the faith the world has ever seen. Each one of these men came to a place where they were martyred for their faith in Christ. These men who abandoned the Lord in the Garden to save their own life, would not have later died for His sake had the resurrection simply been a great hoax. I submit to you today that these men could never have been so transformed by a lie, but were transformed by the truth and reality of the risen Savior.
> 
> I love you and care about you so very much. My friend, the Christian faith has never meant to be a blind leap in the dark. God never asked His children to just believe without any evidence of what we believe in. He has given us plenty of tangible historical evidence to help us know without a doubt that what is in His inspired, inerrant Word is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Absolute truth that you can stake your very life on.
> 
> Of course, once we get to the point we accept the resurrection as a fact, and we accept His Word as TRUTH, it then demands that we totally and unconditionally surrender our very life to Him. That becomes the logical conclusion of this spiritual journey. Because you see, it is not our life any longer, it belongs to Him. Our purpose is to simply serve and glorify Him with our lives.
> 
> I pray that today you will recommit your life to Jesus. We can all do better. None of us have given it ALL to Him...we can give Him more. Make this day the day that you realize that Jesus rose from the dead, to insure that you will live for eternity with Him if you have accepted Him into your heart and life by faith. May you be richly blessed as we stand together to proclaim to this hurting and dying world that Jesus Christ is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. HE IS RISEN INDEED!
> 
> 
> In his love and service,
> Your friend and brother in Christ,
> Bill Keller
> 
> If I can help you in any way you can contact me through my personal email at bkeller@liveprayer.com


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## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I want you to know that I post what I post because I love people, not because I hate them.


  Here's mine for the day 

 Names of Christ* ~ T.C. Horton & Charles E. Hurlburt
THE GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH
The Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5)
	Is there any part of the earth that is mine? Not till I am truly a child of "The God of the Whole Earth." May I not receive Him and possess all things in Christ and proceed to enjoy them, untroubled by the world's woe? Not till the whole earth has heard that He is "the God," not of a few, but "of the whole earth."
	The cattle on a thousand hills belong to You, O Lord, as well as everything we own. Thank You that all things are ours and we will inherit a new heaven and earth. May we surrender everything to You for Your divine use. Amen.

http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/devotional/index_76096.html (The Holy Spirit's Presence)
http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/devotional/f2f/index.php (Grace Is Enough)
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/odb/odb.shtml ("Dumb Ox")
http://www.coralridge.org/nem/NEMdevotional.asp (Honor to Parents)
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/ (Then What's Next To Do?)
http://www.bobgass.com/word/default.aspx (Lifted from Shame)
Today's Promise:  http://promises.blueletterbible.org/


EMOTIONS	   
June 9, 2005	   
Encouragement for the Lonely	   
...God assured us, "I'll never let you down, never walk off and leave you...."  —Hebrews 13:5 (The Message)
Many people are lonely, often even those who have others around them. The death of a loved one can leave a person lonely and confused as well as feeling abandoned.
Your circumstances do not have to be quite so severe to put you into the category of loneliness. Perhaps you have moved to a new neighborhood, have begun attending a new school, or have just started a new job, and you just don't seem to fit in yet.
I know what it is like to be lonely. "Social poverty" is under the curse. Learning to like myself and learning to pray for favor have changed my social status, and it will change yours too.  I encourage you to pray for favor. I also encourage you to be friendly. Don't just wait for someone to fall into your life before you are willing to have fellowship. Beware of being passive. Get involved. Giving always brings joy.
Remember Jesus as He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane. All of His friends had disappointed Him. He needed them for only one hour, and they had let Him down by falling asleep. (Matt. 26:36-43.) The Lord does indeed know how you feel, and He has promised never to leave you nor forsake you (Heb.13:5), so that you will be strengthened to press on.
Do This:  If you are lonely, begin to reach out to others. As you reach out, you are sowing seed for your own loneliness to be overcome.
Copyright ©1998-2003 Joyce Meyer Ministries. All rights reserved.	   


GOD'S WORD FOR GROWING IN PRAYER/Devotional Thoughts on Talking with God ~ Andrew Murray compilation (HumbleCreek) 

THE POWER OF OBEDIENCE
"And the one who sent me is with me—he has not deserted me. For I always do those things that are pleasing to Him. ~ John 8:29

	In these words Christ tells us what His life with the Father was. At the same time, He reveals the law of all communion with God—simple obedience.
	In John 14 He says three times: "If you love me, obey my commandments" (vv. 15, 21, 23); also in chapter 15: "When you obey me, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father and remain in his love....You are my friends if you obey me" (vv. 10, 14).
	Obedience is the proof and the exercise of the love of God in our hearts. It comes from love and leads to love. It assures us that we are abiding in the love of Christ. It seals our claim to be called the friends of Christ. So it is not only a proof of love but of faith, too. It assures us that we "will receive whatever we request because we obey him and do the things that please him" (1 John 3:22).
	Obedience enables us to abide in His love and gives us the full experience of His unbroken presence. It is to the obedient that the word comes—"And be sure of this: I am with you always" (Matt. 2:20)—and to whom all the fullness of its meaning will be revealed.

Father, You have said, "I will write my laws] on their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33).
"I will put my Spirit in you so you will obey my laws and do whatever I command" (Ezekiel 36:27).
May my full obedience to Your Word bring the joy of Your abiding presence. In Your Son's name, amen.
< < < + > > >

*They will call on My name and I will answer them. (Zech. 13:9)   ...this glorious and awesome name... (Deut.28:58)    Excellent is Your name!  (Ps. 8:1)   Hallowed be Your name. (Matt.6:9)   Holy and awesome is His name. (Ps. 111:9)  For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them. (Matt. 18:20)   Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:20)   ...the name which is above every name. (Phil. 2:9)  —


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## migtig

2A - I am not being a smartarse, I am asking a legitimate question.  I think you know that of me.
Wasn't Jesus proclaimed by his followers and students to be the son of God?  He himself never claimed to be God or his only begotten son, did he?  If so, where?  TIA


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## Goofing_Off

migtig said:
			
		

> 2A - I am not being a smartarse, I am asking a legitimate question.  I think you know that of me.
> Wasn't Jesus proclaimed by his followers and students to be the son of God?  He himself never claimed to be God or his only begotten son, did he?  If so, where?  TIA


 He says multiple times in the Bible that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, and that they are one in the same.  Moreover, I believe there are several times where the Pharisees and others wanted to kill him because of it.  In fact, this is why he was cruxified.


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## dems4me

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> He says multiple times in the Bible that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, and that they are one in the same.  Moreover, I believe there are several times where the Pharisees and others wanted to kill him because of it.  In fact, this is why he was cruxified.



 Trinity... I think Jehova Witnesses holds the belief that Jesus was the actual Son - theory.


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## pixiegirl

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> He says multiple times in the Bible that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, and that they are one in the same.  Moreover, I believe there are several times where the Pharisees and others wanted to kill him because of it.  In fact, this is why he was cruxified.



Damn me if I can't remember which gospel it is (the one that is suppose to be the words of Jesus himself) but he claims to be everywhere and in everyone?  Doesn't that reflect the same thing?


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## dems4me

pixiegirl said:
			
		

> Damn me if I can't remember which gospel it is (the one that is suppose to be the words of Jesus himself) but he claims to be everywhere and in everyone?  Doesn't that reflect the same thing?




three in one... trinity - like the clover petals on a shamrock.  St. Patrick's teaching was that, even though there are three separate aspects, it is one and the same and still a shamrock.


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## pixiegirl

dems4me said:
			
		

> three in one... trinity - like the clover petals on a shamrock.  St. Patrick's teaching was that, even though there are three separate aspects, it is one and the same and still a shamrock.



No, what I'm thinking of I'll have to see if I can locate.  It's not in the bible.


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## migtig

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> He says multiple times in the Bible that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him, and that they are one in the same.  Moreover, I believe there are several times where the Pharisees and others wanted to kill him because of it.  In fact, this is why he was cruxified.


The Father could mean anything.  I think he called himself a Shepherd too.  But he was a Carpenter.  Where did he himself claim to be the only base born child of "God"? Yes, I know his followers said.  Yes, I know the Romans put a sign up, yes, I know the "stories" of how he was created.  But what I want is where he himself declared that he was the Messiah, the Christ, not where other folks claimed it for him.


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## 2ndAmendment

migtig said:
			
		

> 2A - I am not being a smartarse, I am asking a legitimate question.  I think you know that of me.
> Wasn't Jesus proclaimed by his followers and students to be the son of God? He himself never claimed to be God or his only begotten son, did he? If so, where? TIA


Actually, Jesus said He was the Father. 





> John 14:7-15
> <sup id="en-NASB-26676">7</sup>"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."     <sup id="en-NASB-26677">8</sup>Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26678">9</sup>Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26679">10</sup>"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26680">11</sup>"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26681">12</sup>"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26682">13</sup>"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26683">14</sup>"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26684">15</sup>"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.



 Hence, one God.


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## 2ndAmendment

migtig said:
			
		

> The Father could mean anything. I think he called himself a Shepherd too. But he was a Carpenter. Where did he himself claim to be the only base born child of "God"? Yes, I know his followers said. Yes, I know the Romans put a sign up, yes, I know the "stories" of how he was created. But what I want is where he himself declared that he was the Messiah, the Christ, not where other folks claimed it for him.


The Father has always meant God in the Bible when speaking in spritual terms.

  See my post above and this. 





> *John 4:24-26 (New American Standard Bible)*
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26181">24</sup>"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26182">25</sup>The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-26183">26</sup>Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."


  How's that?


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## Goofing_Off

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The Father has always meant God in the Bible when not speaking in spritual terms.
> 
> See my post above and this.
> 
> How's that?



THAT should be specific enough.  I'm evidentally not enough of an authority.


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## migtig

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The Father has always meant God in the Bible when not speaking in spritual terms.
> 
> See my post above and this.
> 
> How's that?


That's what I was looking for, thank you.


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## dazed&fallen

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I want you to know that I post what I post because I love people, not because I hate them.



http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html


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## 2ndAmendment

Got quoted twice with a "not" in the wrong place. I edited it in my post but darn ... :shrug: Just showing my imperfection.


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## 2ndAmendment

dazed&fallen said:
			
		

> http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html


 And you know me how? You have insight to my intetions how?

 To share the Truth is true love.


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## dazed&fallen

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> And you know me how? You have insight to my intetions how?
> 
> To share the Truth is true love.



sorry I was responding to your first post. your CS lewis style logic was amusing, thank you for that. 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060652926/104-9761478-0384725?v=glance

i practice tough love


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## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Just showing my imperfection.





awwww


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## dems4me

dazed&fallen said:
			
		

> sorry I was responding to your first post. your CS lewis style logic was amusing, thank you for that.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060652926/104-9761478-0384725?v=glance
> 
> i practice tough love




CS Lewis and 2A are very factual and knowledgeable people. :shrug:


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## dazed&fallen

dems4me said:
			
		

> CS Lewis and 2A are very factual and knowledgeable people. :shrug:



http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

except when it comes to creating false dillemas

ever heard of radical will?

that's the problem with fundamentalism, no irony. 
everything is so black and white.
i've done enough damage here for one lifetime. peace


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## 2ndAmendment

dazed, may you be blessed with the Truth and take it to heart before you die.


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## dazed&fallen

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> dazed, may you be blessed with the Truth and take it to heart before you die.



awww and may you one day awake from your slumber amendment


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## Goofing_Off

dazed&fallen said:
			
		

> awww and may you one day awake from your slumber amendment


 Dazed, instead of simply disparaging us for our beliefs, would you instead elaborate on what you believe in?  I'd be interested to know what you think is the truth.


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## 2ndAmendment

dazed&fallen said:
			
		

> awww and may you one day awake from your slumber amendment


I have already been raised from my deadly slumber of human self elevation and false wisdom and now grasp that my purpose is to serve God's purpose.


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## Nickel

dems4me said:
			
		

> Trinity... I think Jehova Witnesses holds the belief that Jesus was the actual Son - theory.


 I heard that they also believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and in "heaven" women will be eternally pregnant.


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## dazed&fallen

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> Dazed, instead of simply disparaging us for our beliefs, would you instead elaborate on what you believe in?  I'd be interested to know what you think is the truth.



i believe in this guy  

mms://wm-ondemand.abacast.com/prophet_yahweh/ABCnews1.wmv

if that doesn't work try this

http://www.prophetyahweh.com/


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## 2ndAmendment

As has been discussed, the Trinity is a more recent concept to the Christian church. The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. Now I understand how the concept took root; it was to give a name, people love naming stuff, to the concept of God in the three forms presented to mankind.

   God, being totally Spirit, can be anything at anytime or multiple things at one time. There is one God that manifests Himself in different forms.

   As to Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology, Seventh Day Adventist, they all have some other book that is authoritative for them instead of or in addition to the Bible.


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## 2ndAmendment

dazed&fallen said:
			
		

> i believe in this guy
> 
> mms://wm-ondemand.abacast.com/prophet_yahweh/ABCnews1.wmv
> 
> if that doesn't work try this
> 
> http://www.prophetyahweh.com/


You are indeed dazed and fallen.


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## dazed&fallen

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You are indeed dazed and fallen.



do you mock Prophet yahweh seer of yahweh? you must be jealous because I get to ride in a spaceship


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## Nickel

Nickel said:
			
		

> I heard that they also believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and in "heaven" women will be eternally pregnant.


 Nevermind, I'm thinking of the Mormons.


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## Goofing_Off

Nickel said:
			
		

> I heard that they also believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and in "heaven" women will be eternally pregnant.





			
				Nickel said:
			
		

> Nevermind, I'm thinking of the Mormons.



I take it this means you're not looking forward to going to Heaven?


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## Danzig

i vote fraud

that is all


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## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> As to Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Scientology, Seventh Day Adventist, they all have some other book that is authoritative for them instead of or in addition to the Bible.


and what makes that, or them, wrong? your book is instead of, or in additon to the OT.... does that make it also wrong?



'Cause they don't go for what's in the book
'N that makes 'em BAD
(Depending on which book you're using at the time . . . Can't use theirs . . . it don't work . . . it's all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . ) 

FZ


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## 2ndAmendment

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> and what makes that, or them, wrong? your book is instead of, or in additon to the OT.... does that make it also wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cause they don't go for what's in the book
> 'N that makes 'em BAD
> (Depending on which book you're using at the time . . . Can't use theirs . . . it don't work . . . it's all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . )
> 
> FZ


I am just pointing out that those organizations rely on the work (book, thought) of one person. They do not rely on the word of God, the Bible, as their authoritative source. God gives us freedom of personal choice which includes the choice to follow His way or the way of some person be that person John Smith, Charles Darwin, or some other. For me, I would rather rely on God's word.


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## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I am just pointing out that those organizations rely on the work (book, thought) of one person. They do not rely on the word of God, the Bible, as their authoritative source. God gives us freedom of personal choice which includes the choice to follow His way or the way of some person be that person John Smith, Charles Darwin, or some other. For me, I would rather rely on God's word.


and the probelme with that is just that your "word of god" was written by a person, or collection there of, so who is to decide that the persons who wrote those other works didn't indeed have devine guidance as well?


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## Goofing_Off

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> and the probelme with that is just that your "word of god" was written by a person, or collection there of, so who is to decide that the persons who wrote those other works didn't indeed have <b>devine guidance</b> as well?



The guidance of Devine Brown, the hooker Hugh Grant was caught with back in 1995? 

Some of you people really need to learn how to spell.


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## 2ndAmendment

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> and the probelme with that is just that your "word of god" was written by a person, or collection there of, so who is to decide that the persons who wrote those other works didn't indeed have devine guidance as well?


The basic premise must be your own belief in God. You are free to believe or not; God gave you freewill. The Bible is not understood by those not of the Spirit. I believe to understand; I don't seek to understand, so I can believe.

   I cannot convince you or anyone of the Truth. There is no debate with a non-believer. The Holy Spirit will convict you and you will see the Truth, or you will be eternally lost. I am more than happy to discuss and explain as I am lead by the Holy Spirit with those that are seeking the Truth. Those that are blinded by their own "wisdom" cannot be argued into believing, so it is useless to try. All I can do is pray that you eventually find the Truth which I have just done.


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## Midnightrider

Goofing_Off said:
			
		

> The guidance of Devine Brown, the hooker Hugh Grant was caught with back in 1995?
> 
> Some of you people really need to learn how to spell.


seriously dude, get a life


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## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The Holy Spirit will convict you and you will see the Truth, or you will be eternally lost. I am more than happy to discuss and explain as I am lead by the Holy Spirit with those that are seeking the Truth. Those that are blinded by their own "wisdom" cannot be argued into believing, so it is useless to try. All I can do is pray that you eventually find the Truth which I have just done.


WOW, such judgement in your words.....

all i was asking is where you draw the line, John Smith believed, and his followers believe that he was guided by the Holy Spirit- the same one you say is your god. So why is it inconcievable that this could be the truth?
I'm not a nonbeliever, but i don't go around discounting others' beliefs the way you do either.


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## Chasey_Lane

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> I'm not a nonbeliever, but i don't go around discounting others' beliefs the way you do either.


:repent:


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## Verisimilitude

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> WOW, such judgement in your words.....
> 
> all i was asking is where you draw the line, John Smith believed, and his followers believe that he was guided by the Holy Spirit- the same one you say is your god. So why is it inconcievable that this could be the truth?
> I'm not a nonbeliever, but i don't go around discounting others' beliefs the way you do either.




All of lifes questions are answered in the Bible.  Why don't you read the Bible for your answers yourself instead of asking 2A for a summary and then discrediting him.


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## Chasey_Lane

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> All of lifes questions are answered in the Bible.


pinion:


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## Midnightrider

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> All of lifes questions are answered in the Bible.  Why don't you read the Bible for your answers yourself instead of asking 2A for a summary and then discrediting him.


I didn't ask anybody for a summary, and i have read quite a bit of the bible, my question, as i spelled out in my post is where do you draw the line on if something should be treated as the "truth" , since all of the works in question were written by man at different times in history.
And i'm not dicrediting him, but i do feel he is being exrtremely judgemental and closed minded.

I know i didn't say anybody's anything would be lost if they didn't share my beliefs.


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## PJay

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> All of lifes questions are answered in the Bible.  Why don't you read the Bible for your answers yourself instead of asking 2A for a summary and then discrediting him.



Not meaning to butt in, but the Bible is hard to understand for most. I really do not think he's trying to discredit 2nd. He just has questions like all of us have.


----------



## nomoney

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> All of lifes questions are answered in the Bible. Why don't you read the Bible for your answers yourself instead of asking 2A for a summary and then discrediting him.


 
does it really answer all of lifes questions? cause I can't seem to find the answer I've been looking for for a while now:

what length is too long for toenails    I like them long enough so I can scratch my hubby's legs in bed when he starts snoring.  But I can never find a perfect length. If they get too long they get ingrown; if they get too short I can't pizz off my hubby.......what section should I read to find this answer?


----------



## Verisimilitude

Homesick said:
			
		

> Not meaning to butt in, but the Bible is hard to understand for most. I really do not think he's trying to discredit 2nd. He just has questions like all of us have.




That's why they make study bibles.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> WOW, such judgement in your words.....
> 
> all i was asking is where you draw the line, John Smith believed, and his followers believe that he was guided by the Holy Spirit- the same one you say is your god. So why is it inconcievable that this could be the truth?
> I'm not a nonbeliever, but i don't go around discounting others' beliefs the way you do either.


No judgment. It is your freewill that directs where you spend eternity. I have no decision making process in it. It is entirely between you and God. But the choice strictly boils down to heaven or hell; God's way or not. 

  Either the Bible is Truth or it is not. If even one word is not Truth, then none of is is worthy of trust or study. It is that simple. 

  The Bible says to beware of the counsel of angels. John Smith said he got his revelation from the angel Moroni.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

You know Chasey, I like you in person, but you certainly present a less than likable persona here. You obviously don't believe in God or the Bible by what you have posted. I know that you are living or have lived with someone who is not your husband. Is that why you find God and the Bible offensive?


----------



## Verisimilitude

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> No judgment. It is your freewill that directs where you spend eternity. I have no decision making process in it. It is entirely between you and God. But the choice strictly boils down to heaven or hell; God's way or not.
> 
> Either the Bible is Truth or it is not. If even one word is not Truth, then none of is is worthy of trust or study. It is that simple.
> 
> The Bible says to beware of the counsel of angels. John Smith said he got his revelation from the angel Moroni.


You are 100 % correct 2ndAmendment.  Jesus saves!    If one verse is written in error, how would you discern which other passages are written in error or not?   This theory would only lead folks to conveniently elect verses they may or may not want to believe (ala-carte style Bible interpretations and discard the rest).   It is either flawless or imperfect (my opinion) in its entirety.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You know Chasey, I like you in person, but you certainly present a less than likable persona here. You obviously don't believe in God or the Bible by what you have posted. I know that you are living or have lived with someone who is not your husband. Is that why you find God and the Bible offensive?


I've lived with several people with whom I wasn't married to.  Some girls, some guys. I don't find the Bible offensive, I find that it was written as a way we should lead our lives.  Just because my opinion of the Bible (and I'm sure a few other things) is not the same as yours does not mean I'm not entitled to my opinion, or my opinion is any less than yours.


----------



## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> No judgment. It is your freewill that directs where you spend eternity. I have no decision making process in it. It is entirely between you and God. But the choice strictly boils down to heaven or hell; God's way or not.
> 
> Either the Bible is Truth or it is not. If even one word is not Truth, then none of is is worthy of trust or study. It is that simple.
> 
> The Bible says to beware of the counsel of angels. John Smith said he got his revelation from the angel Moroni.


See theres plenty of judgement there, and its yours, you just like to justify it with your faith. 
You know the Nazis justified their atrocities with the very same book....


And chasey, those are the perfect length, but i perfer a little less ungodly color


----------



## dems4me

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> You are 100 % correct 2ndAmendment.  Jesus saves!
> 
> 
> 
> Is it too late to take my  CarriBlue   back :shrug:
Click to expand...


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You know Chasey, I like you in person, but you certainly present a less than likable persona here. You obviously don't believe in God or the Bible by what you have posted. I know that you are living or have lived with someone who is not your husband. Is that why you find God and the Bible offensive?




I bet you just made a butt load of brownie points with god on that post.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> See theres plenty of judgement there, and its yours, you just like to justify it with your faith.
> You know the Nazis justified their atrocities with the very same book....
> 
> 
> And chasey, those are the perfect length, but i perfer a little less ungodly color


How's this?


----------



## Tonio

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I know that you are living or have lived with someone who is not your husband. Is that why you find God and the Bible offensive?


2A, as much as I respect your beliefs, I think you were wrong in saying that to Chasey. Her personal life and her religious beliefs are no one else's business.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Tonio said:
			
		

> 2A, as much as I respect your beliefs, I think you were wrong in saying that to Chasey. Her personal life and her religious beliefs are no one else's business.


I know her IRL. She is nothing like her board persona. I asked because she has made a point to try to discredit or detract from much of what I post that is straight from the Bible. She answered the question. That is fine. Of course she is welcome to her own opinion; she has God given free will even if she does not recognize it is from God.

 It is the power to choose God's way or not that is so important. It is that choice that we are alive for.


----------



## dems4me

Tonio said:
			
		

> 2A, as much as I respect your beliefs, I think you were wrong in saying that to Chasey. Her personal life and her religious beliefs are no one else's business.




Its not like he accused her of being gay or anything


----------



## Verisimilitude

K_Jo said:
			
		

> : worhts.




Is that a Greek or Hebrew translation of something?


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I asked because she has made a point to try to discredit or detract from much of what I post that is straight from the Bible.



2A, that's what you do to every post that disagrees with you.  How is this any different?  You attempt to discredit anyone and anything that is not alligned with your belief.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I know her IRL. She is nothing like her board persona. I asked because she has made a point to try to discredit or detract from much of what I post that is straight from the Bible.


And you don't try to do the same?  People will never be in agreeance when it comes to religion and politics.  I don't care what symbol, person, animal you choose to pray to, it doesn't have a thing to do with me.  I like people for who they are, not by their choice of church or belief.  At any rate, I'm not going to argue something as ridiculous as this.  Enjoy your day!


----------



## Verisimilitude

Are there any religious threads in the Religion forum that actually focus on religion, church, or spiritual battles?


----------



## mAlice

> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 02:06 PM HI



 right back at ya'.


----------



## KCM

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You know Chasey, I like you in person, but you certainly present a less than likable persona here. You obviously don't believe in God or the Bible by what you have posted. I know that you are living or have lived with someone who is not your husband. Is that why you find God and the Bible offensive?


I cannot believe that you would post a reply like this, 2A, when someone doesn't agree with what you have said.


----------



## nomoney

dems4me said:
			
		

> Thanks. I will switch smilies if you prefer. I was trying to keep things friendly and above-board.


 
busted


----------



## K_Jo

:busted:???


----------



## K_Jo

nomoney said:
			
		

> busted


  She was too fast for me.


----------



## dems4me

nomoney said:
			
		

> busted



For what. I thought folks were getting upset with my smilies that I always use and the number of them.  Then I realized it wasn't me for once that was having their chops busted


----------



## nomoney

dems4me said:
			
		

> For what. I thought folks were getting upset with my smilies that I always use and the number of them. Then I realized it wasn't me for once that was having their chops busted


----------



## kwillia

nomoney said:
			
		

>


----------



## dems4me

Whatever 
As  y'all were.  I'm way too busy today to keep up on this thread.  Carry on.


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> For what. I thought folks were getting upset with my smilies that I always use and the number of them.  Then I realized it wasn't me for once that was having their chops busted


Thanks for clearing that up.  I was all like, "What's up with Dems?  Is she, like, using an mpd or something?  "


----------



## 2ndAmendment

KCM said:
			
		

> I cannot believe that you would post a reply like this, 2A, when someone doesn't agree with what you have said.


People that have lives that are in disagreement with the Bible discredit the Bible or say God is not real and the like. That is what I was getting at.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that up.  I was all like, "What's up with Dems?  Is she, like, using an mpd or something?  "




No, last I heard I was supposed to be canuk woman or something. :shrug:


----------



## vraiblonde

Alright, settle down. 


Let's keep the chit chat and silliness out of the Religion forum.  If you want to discuss and have something to say, that's fine.  But we should all try and respect others in here.  And this goes for the Christian set as well.

I've made the "rule"  before that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.  And I try to clean up threads that are just devotionals and don't invite discussion.  But when someone comes on and says that so-and-so is a sinner and going to hell, that's not considered "nice" in the conventional definition of the word.  It's an attack and invites less than cordial conversation.

So everyone has their beliefs and opinions, and that's great.  But you can't expect to come on making disparaging remarks and not have the targets defend themselves.

So let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand and not delve off into toenails and junk like that.

*PS, it was NOT 2A that complained about the thread.*


----------



## nomoney

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that up. I was all like, "What's up with Dems? Is she, like, using an mpd or something?  "


I know I was totally like "dems can't hack an mpd"; thanks for clearing that up and proving me right


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> People that have lives that are in disagreement with the Bible discredit the Bible or say God is not real and the like. That is what I was getting at.




Yet, it's okay for you to attempt to discredit anything that doesn't allign with your beliefs?


----------



## nomoney

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Alright, settle down.
> 
> *PS, it was NOT 2A that complained about the thread.*


 
it musta been that verisimilitude who is not an mpd or anything


----------



## dems4me

nomoney said:
			
		

> I know I was totally like "dems can't hack an mpd"; thanks for clearing that up and proving me right




 That's my problem, when I'd create an mpd it would only last for about 3 posts before it'd get hacked...not to mention folks realize my writting style to well...so I gave up.


----------



## nomoney

dems4me said:
			
		

> That's my problem, when I'd create an mpd it would only last for about 3 posts before it'd get hacked...not to mention folks realize my writting style to well...so I gave up.


----------



## Verisimilitude

nomoney said:
			
		

>


----------



## kwillia

dems4me said:
			
		

> <img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/carolrobert/trainwreck.gif">


----------



## nomoney

okay okay peeps; back to the religion threads:


god is cool


----------



## K_Jo

nomoney said:
			
		

> okay okay peeps; back to the religion threads:
> 
> 
> god is cool


He's also good and I just thanked him for this food.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Yet, it's okay for you to attempt to discredit anything that doesn't allign with your beliefs?


I care about her and you. I don't have to agree with your life styles as I have been lead to believe they are; I have no first hand experience with them nor do I care to. Sin is sin. It does not matter if it is friend or foe or self that it is found in. In God's plan, sin = death. Just as God has proclaimed in His word that He desires that no one would be lost, that is my hope as well, especially for those people I know. But free will is there. He will not force anyone to His way just as I cannot force or convince anyone. It is each person's choice, but if I were to turn my back and abandon those on this board and quit proclaiming the Truth, then I would lack the love I am expected to show for all mankind.

 My best friend is lost. He is not on this board that I know of. I have no problem telling him the same things I have posted here. To do less would be not loving him.


----------



## nomoney

K_Jo said:
			
		

> He's also good and I just thanked him for this food.


 
I just made him damn someone for putting something on my desk 5 min before I was about to leave early.


----------



## Verisimilitude

kwillia said:
			
		

>




LOL  Cute smilie!!!



Yes.  God is good!


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I care about her and you. I don't have to agree with your life styles as I have been lead to believe they are; I have no first hand experience with them nor do I care to. Sin is sin. It does not matter if it is friend or foe or self that it is found in. In God's plan, sin = death. Just as God has proclaimed in His word that He desires that no one would be lost, that is mine hope as well, especially for those people I know. But free will is there. He will not force anyone to His way just as I cannot force or convince anyone. It is each person's choice, but if I were to turn my back and abandon those on this board and quit proclaiming the Truth, then I would lack the love I am expected to show for all mankind.
> 
> My best friend is lost. He is not on this board that I know of. I have no problem telling him the same things I have posted here. To do less would be not loving him.




Do me a favor.  Don't love me.  You're not doing me any favors.  As a matter of fact, at this point it sounds like you're just trying to excuse your poor behavior.  If you wanna' be god like, stop taking stabs at people's personal lives and preferences, which are none of your business.


----------



## Verisimilitude

nomoney said:
			
		

> I just made him damn someone for putting something on my desk 5 min before I was about to leave early.




Maybe He was damning you LOL!!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Do me a favor.  Don't love me. ...


Sorry. Not a choice.


----------



## nomoney

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> Maybe He was damning you LOL!!!


 


well that would explain alot


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Sorry. Not a choice.




Being a busy body is a choice.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Being a busy body is a choice.


Loving others is a directive from God. Proclaiming the Truth is not a choice but a command.


----------



## mAlice

2A, people just like you are the reason I turned by back on god.  There was a time I wanted to believe, but the more I associated, the more I hated the concept.  The more I learned, the more I realized that it's all a lie.  

Maybe I should be thanking you.


----------



## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> My best friend is lost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for somebody who isn't judging that sure seems pretty judgemental, and isn't that something for God to judge.
> 
> Does your friend feel lost?
Click to expand...


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Loving others is a directive from God. Proclaiming the Truth is not a choice but a command.




Oh, I see.  Your proclaiming the truth about Chasey living in sin.  Got it!


----------



## Midnightrider

elaine said:
			
		

> 2A, people just like you are the reason I turned by back on god.  There was a time I wanted to believe, but the more I associated, the more I hated the concept.  The more I learned, the more I realized that it's all a lie.
> 
> Maybe I should be thanking you.


god is not the problem, its religion and the  selfproclaimed righteous


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> 2A, people just like you are the reason I turned by back on god. There was a time I wanted to believe, but the more I associated, the more I hated the concept. The more I learned, the more I realized that it's all a lie.
> 
> Maybe I should be thanking you.


If it is a lie and you don't like me, then why do you bother to post in the Religion forum or read my posts? If you don't want to read the Truth, you have free will not to.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Oh, I see.  Your proclaiming the truth about Chasey living in sin.  Got it!


Fornication is sin.


----------



## PJay

elaine said:
			
		

> 2A, people just like you are the reason I turned by back on god.  There was a time I wanted to believe, but the more I associated, the more I hated the concept.  The more I learned, the more I realized that it's all a lie.



elaine, you should never turn away from God because of people.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If it is a lie and you don't like me, then why do you bother to post in the Religion forum or read my posts? If you don't want to read the Truth, you have free will not to.




Because I have as much right to voice my opinion about religion as you do.  If you didn't want people to disagree with you, why did _you_ start a thread?  Oh yeah...to proclaim the truth.  Well, based on my studies, I proclaim it's all a farce.  

But let's not get away from what this is really about.  This about you taking cheap shots at/and sharing pieces of Chasey's personal life on a public forum.  Not that it really matters to her, but that doesn't make what you did right.  Not even in the eyes of your god.


----------



## ceo_pte

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Fornication is sin.



This is true


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> ... Chasey living in sin.


 :wipessweatfromforehead: Glad I'm not the only sinner!

 chasey!


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Fornication is sin.



Well, dayum...I guess you just threw the first stone, didn't you?

2A is without sin.  :


----------



## Verisimilitude

Homesick said:
			
		

> elaine, you should never turn away from God because of people.




I agree 100% with you Homesick.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Because I have as much right to voice my opinion about religion as you do. If you didn't want people to disagree with you, why did _you_ start a thread?  Oh yeah...to proclaim the truth.  Well, based on my studies, I proclaim it's all a farce.
> 
> But let's not get away from what this is really about. This about you taking cheap shots at/and sharing pieces of Chasey's personal life on a public forum. Not that it really matters to her, but that doesn't make what you did right. Not even in the eyes of your god.


You certainly have the right to your opinion. Sin is sin; my life, your life, her lfe, sin is still sin. Unrepented sin leads to eternal seperaton from God.


----------



## ceo_pte

elaine said:
			
		

> Because I have as much right to voice my opinion about religion as you do.  If you didn't want people to disagree with you, why did _you_ start a thread?  Oh yeah...to proclaim the truth.  Well, based on my studies, I proclaim it's all a farce.
> 
> But let's not get away from what this is really about.  This about you taking cheap shots at/and sharing pieces of Chasey's personal life on a public forum.  Not that it really matters to her, but that doesn't make what you did right.  Not even in the eyes of your god.




 
"sharing pieces of Chasey's personal life on a public forum."  I didn't realize that this was such a big no-no...  I'm sure no one else would ever think of doing such a thing....


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Well, dayum...I guess you just threw the first stone, didn't you?
> 
> 2A is without sin.  :


Never claimed that.


----------



## mAlice

Homesick said:
			
		

> elaine, you should never turn away from God because of people.




People were the impetus, studying was the clincher.  But, thanks for your concern.


----------



## K_Jo

crabcake said:
			
		

> :wipessweatfromforehead: Glad I'm not the only sinner!
> 
> chasey!




I never thought I'd live in sin (guilt-ridden Catholic), but if I hadn't, we wouldn't have made it through the first _month _ of marriage.  Of this I am sure.


----------



## dustin

crabcake said:
			
		

> :wipessweatfromforehead: Glad I'm not the only sinner!
> 
> chasey!



I'm a sinner too. I farted and didn't claim it.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Never claimed that.



Actions speak louder than words.


----------



## K_Jo

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> I agree 100% with you Homesick.


:shocker:


----------



## ceo_pte

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Never claimed that.



AGREE, he never said that...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dustin said:
			
		

> I'm a sinner too. I farted and didn't claim it.


Gas is not a sin.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Sin is sin; my life, your life, her lfe, sin is still sin. Unrepented sin leads to eternal seperaton from God.



Well then, you should toss a few of your transgressions out here for the eyes of the general public.


----------



## Midnightrider

elaine said:
			
		

> Well then, you should toss a few of your transgressions out here for the eyes of the general public.


he is repentent for his sins, so they don't count,
Cant you read between the lines!!!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Well then, you should toss a few of your transgressions out here for the eyes of the general public.


My sins have been confessed and repented of in the last minute. God freely forgives those that repent.


----------



## Verisimilitude

K_Jo said:
			
		

> :shocker:




I'm in 100% agreement with K_Jo.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> My sins have been confessed and repented of in the last minute. God freely forgives those that repent.



death bed salvation


----------



## PJay

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Gas is not a sin.



Oh THANK GOD!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> he is repentent for his sins, so they don't count,
> Cant you read between the lines!!!!


Just as all who confess Jesus as Savior and Lord have their sins covered by the blood shed at the cross. Everyone one can be white as new driven snow.


----------



## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> My sins have been confessed and repented of in the last minute. God freely forgives those that repent.


and here is the rub with that way of thinking:
A person who is in love and "livining in sin" goes to hell
a repentent murderer or child molester is forgiven

I'm not sure i want to be a part of that heaven


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> death bed salvation


I'm not in bed although we are all dying from the moment we are born.


----------



## K_Jo

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> and here is the rub with that way of thinking:
> A person who is in love and "livining in sin" goes to hell
> a repentent murderer or child molester is forgiven
> 
> I'm not sure i want to be a part of that heaven


You rock!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> and here is the rub with that way of thinking:
> A person who is in love and "livining in sin" goes to hell
> a repentent murderer or child molester is forgiven
> 
> I'm not sure i want to be a part of that heaven


You have free will.


----------



## crabcake

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I never thought I'd live in sin (guilt-ridden Catholic), but if I hadn't, we wouldn't have made it through the first _month _ of marriage.  Of this I am sure.


 AMEN! : 

 I'd much rather live in sin with someone and fornicate so I know what I'm getting into than marrying them without that key knowledge. Heck, you wouldn't buy a car without test-driving it, would ya? :shrug:


----------



## Verisimilitude

Homesick said:
			
		

> Oh THANK GOD!




It only becomes one when it is more than $2.50 a gallon.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Just as all who confess Jesus as Savior and Lord have their sins covered by the blood shed at the cross. Everyone one can be white as new driven snow.




And that's what makes you feel better about yourself, isn't it?  You can say anything you want, to anybody, so long as you ask for forgiveness after the fact?  I'm at a loss for words.


----------



## PJay

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> It only becomes one when it is more than $2.50 a gallon.



lol

Agree!


----------



## mAlice

Midnightrider said:
			
		

> and here is the rub with that way of thinking:
> A person who is in love and "livining in sin" goes to hell
> a repentent murderer or child molester is forgiven
> 
> I'm not sure i want to be a part of that heaven



I _know_ I don't want to be a part of it.  2A's posts do nothing more than validate my belief.


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> And that's what makes you feel better about yourself, isn't it? You can say anything you want, to anybody, so long as you ask for forgiveness after the fact? I'm at a loss for words.


  

 That right there is what's always blown my gasket about some self-proclaimed men/women of God.   "It's okay for me to screw up, cuz afterward, I just say, 'Ooops God, sorry! Forgive me? '"


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> AMEN! :
> 
> I'd much rather live in sin with someone and fornicate so I know what I'm getting into than marrying them without that key knowledge. Heck, you wouldn't buy a car without test-driving it, would ya? :shrug:


You miss it. Did living in sin and fornicating prevent your breakup and divorce? Sex clouds the mind. You do not see the things that will irritate you because you are getting off.

   The Jews used to live together without sexual relations for a year before marriage. That could make sense. Then you would indeed see the irritations and whether you could really live together in life.

   I ask, is any sex you have had bad? Some better than others, yes, but none bad.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You miss it. Did living in sin and fornicating prevent your breakup and divorce? Sex clouds the mind. You do not see the things that will irritate you because you are getting off.
> 
> The Jews used to live together without sexual relations for a year before marriage. That could make sense. Then you would indeed see the irritations and whether you could really live together in life.
> 
> I ask, is any sex you have had bad? Some better than others, yes, but none bad.


You're thinking like a man.  Sex does not cloud a woman's mind to the point where she can't see things that will irritate her.  And there is such a thing as bad sex.  VERY bad sex.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You miss it. Did living in sin and fornicating prevent your breakup and divorce? Sex clouds the mind. You do not see the things that will irritate you because you are getting off.
> 
> I ask, is any sex you have had bad? Some better than others, yes, but none bad.


  1) I didn't live in sin with my ex. We married first, _then_ lived together. Had I lived with him long enough (sex aside), I'd have NEVER married him! 

 2) Yes, I've had a bad lover before (but I won't elaborate on that story here! ) And you can call me a sinner, shallow or whatever you please, but I believe that a compatible, satisfying sex life is a key factor to a healthy relationship/marriage, and you don't find that out unless you test-drive the goods first. 

  Since we're getting personal, did you and Sharon wait to live together and have sex until after you married?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You're thinking like a man. Sex does not cloud a woman's mind to the point where she can't see things that will irritate her. And there is such a thing as bad sex. VERY bad sex.


Wow. I'm sorry for your problem.


----------



## Verisimilitude

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Y
> I ask, is any sex you have had bad? Some better than others, yes, but none bad.




Doesn't this disagree with your gay sex being bad thread discussed earlier?  I'm confused now, is gay sex good or bad?


----------



## K_Jo

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You rock!


   06-10-2005 03:19 PM no, you rock


Thank you very much.   And how very Christian of you to condemn me for havng an opinion.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> 1) I didn't live in sin with my ex. We married first, _then_ lived together. Had I lived with him long enough (sex aside), I'd have NEVER married him!
> 
> 2) Yes, I've had a bad lover before (but I won't elaborate on that story here! ) And you can call me a sinner, shallow or whatever you please, but I believe that a compatible, satisfying sex life is a key factor to a healthy relationship/marriage, and you don't find that out unless you test-drive the goods first.
> 
> Since we're getting personal, did you and Sharon wait to live together and have sex until after you married?


Yes.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Wow. I'm sorry for your problem.


Yeah, it's me. 

Do you ever have fun?


----------



## Verisimilitude

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Yes.




 My question next please!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Verisimilitude said:
			
		

> Doesn't this disagree with your gay sex being bad thread discussed earlier? I'm confused now, is gay sex good or bad?


My reference was obviously sex between a man and a woman since the context was marriage.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's me.
> 
> Do you ever have fun?


Yes.


----------



## dustin

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Gas is not a sin.


 You weren't sitting next to me


----------



## mAlice

crabcake said:
			
		

> That right there is what's always blown my gasket about some self-proclaimed men/women of God.   "It's okay for me to screw up, cuz afterward, I just say, 'Ooops God, sorry! Forgive me? '"



This is another one of those little items he'll just skip over.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dustin said:
			
		

> You weren't sitting next to me


Thank God for small blessings.


----------



## crabcake

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I mean, Wow.  I'm sorry for your problem.


 It's only a problem for the person who can't handle the truth! 


 Heck, I'm not worried ... premarital sex, shackin' up before getting married. I'll just say "Ooops, God; sorry, forgive me?" and I'll be good as new!  That way, not only will I be happy with the person I eventually marry, but also forgiven!


----------



## Midnightrider

elaine said:
			
		

> This is another one of those little items he'll just skip over.


when confronted with logic, the faithful IGNORE


----------



## mAlice

crabcake said:
			
		

> It's only a problem for the person who can't handle the truth!
> 
> 
> Heck, I'm not worried ... premarital sex, shackin' up before getting married. I'll just say "Ooops, God; sorry, forgive me?" and I'll be good as new!  That way, not only will I be happy with the person I eventually marry, but also forgiven!




Just think how nasty I could be if I _did_ believe in god.


----------



## Midnightrider

elaine said:
			
		

> Just think how nasty I could be if I _did_ believe in god.


i wanna hook up with you after your repentent, please!!!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> *crabcake* _
> 
> That right there is what's always blown my gasket about some self-proclaimed men/women of God.   "It's okay for me to screw up, cuz afterward, I just say, 'Ooops God, sorry! Forgive me? '"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is another one of those little items he'll just skip over.
Click to expand...

I thought I already answered that. Everyone has the opportunity, right, to accept the forgiveness of God through His sacrifice on the cross. That includes me. It is your free will to accept God's forgiveness or not.


----------



## crabcake

elaine said:
			
		

> This is another one of those little items he'll just skip over.


  Dur Elaine ... none of us are without sin. Even those who try to live the purest of lives. That's what's so great about being a Christian -- God forgives! 













_did I get that right? _


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I thought I already answered that. Everyone has the opportunity, right, to accept the forgiveness of God through His sacrifice on the cross. That includes me. It is your free will to accept God's forgiveness or not.




That sure cleared things up.  Thanks!


----------



## mAlice

Man, I sure racked up the points on this tread.



> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 03:22 PM   -- xxxx
> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 03:13 PM gotta love the closed minded, or not!!!! xxxx
> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 03:09 PM :snicker: xxxx
> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 03:08 PM  xxxx
> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 03:07 PM  xxxx
> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 02:23 PM Well said! xxxx
> Jesus is either the big... 06-10-2005 02:19 PM don't egg her on; she'll just get worse  xxxx


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> Just think how nasty I could be if I _did_ believe in god.


Forgiveness does not give license to sin, so that grace can increase. Forgiveness and the true repentance leads Christians to try to live more in God's will, not that we can be perfect, but to honor God with our lives.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Forgiveness does not give license to sin


 Interesting.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Forgiveness does not give license to sin, so that grace can increase. Forgiveness and the true repentance leads Christians to try to live more in God's will, not that we can be perfect, but to honor God with our lives.



No, it just gives you license to condemn people you say you love.  Got ya'.


----------



## Verisimilitude

elaine said:
			
		

> Man, I sure racked up the points on this tread.



Who were you egging on?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> No, it just gives you license to condemn people you say you love. Got ya'.


I did not condemn you or anyone. I don't have that power.


----------



## K_Jo

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I did not condemn you or anyone. I don't have that power.


Only God can condemn.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Only God can condemn.


Truth.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I did not condemn you or anyone. I don't have that power.




If that's what you're telling yourself.


----------



## Merlin

K_Jo said:
			
		

> You're thinking like a man. Sex does not cloud a woman's mind to the point where she can't see things that will irritate her. And there is such a thing as bad sex. VERY bad sex.


There can be also bad sex for a man. Been there. Divorced that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> If that's what you're telling yourself.


Show me where I did.


----------



## Verisimilitude

Merlin said:
			
		

> There can be also bad sex for a man. Been there. Divorced that.




Whose name did she end up calling out?


----------



## K_Jo

Merlin said:
			
		

> There can be also bad sex for a man. Been there. Divorced that.


   I hope things are much, much, MUCH better now.


----------



## Verisimilitude

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I hope things are much, much, MUCH better now.




I think he's right handed.  LOL


----------



## Merlin

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I hope things are much, much, MUCH better now.


Counldn't be better!!!! I'm now married to a fun, wonderful, loving woman who I can't wait to get my butt home to see tonight


----------



## crabcake

Is it still sinning if you go camping with your b/f and share a tent?


----------



## K_Jo

crabcake said:
			
		

> Is it still sinning if you go camping with your b/f and share a tent?


I think it depends on who pitches it.


----------



## crabcake

K_Jo said:
			
		

> I think it depends on who pitches it.


 He will; I'll be barefoot in the sand by the fire, cookin' dinner where I belong.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> Is it still sinning if you go camping with your b/f and share a tent?


Come on. You know what is sin and what isn't. I hope you have a great weekend.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Come on. You know what is sin and what isn't. I hope you have a great weekend.


 Good point! It's kinda common sense, isn't it? 

 That being the case, why do you consider yourself a sinner? If you know what is and is not a sin, why would you commit one and thus label yourself a sinner? 

 I'm asking this question in general terms -- not directed "personally" at you, 2A -- but this is why I think a lot of self-proclaimed christians are hypocrits. You know what is and is not a sin, yet you commit them. Why?


----------



## Merlin

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You know Chasey, I like you in person, but you certainly present a less than likable persona here. You obviously don't believe in God or the Bible by what you have posted. I know that you are living or have lived with someone who is not your husband. Is that why you find God and the Bible offensive?


I think you stepped over the line a bit here.  If you want to make a point and it involves sin, it would be better to point to sins of your own, rather than pointing out other's.  Pointing out otherss sin is akin to "casting the first stone", if you will, and comes accrss as judgemental (whether or not you meant it that way).


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> Good point! It's kinda common sense, isn't it?
> 
> That being the case, why do you consider yourself a sinner? If you know what is and is not a sin, why would you commit one and thus label yourself a sinner?
> 
> I'm asking this question in general terms -- not directed "personally" at you, 2A -- but this is why I think a lot of self-proclaimed christians are hypocrits. You know what is and is not a sin, yet you commit them. Why?


I am human. I see a good looking woman and think .... That is lust and could be coveting. There are lots of things that I think and do that do not measure up to the holinest that God desires for each of us. So, I am a sinner. Paul said that he did things he shouldn't and didn't do the things he should. I don't know the exact reference right now. Is it OK for me to sin because Paul did? No. It is the human condition to sin. God knows this and provided His plan os salvation.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I am human. I see a good looking woman and think .... That is lust and could be coveting. There are lots of things that I think and do that do not measure up to the holinest that God desires for each of us. So, I am a sinner. Paul said that he did things he shouldn't and didn't do the things he should. I don't know the exact reference right now. Is it OK for me to sin because Paul did? No. It is the human condition to sin. God knows this and provided His plan os salvation.




Didn't Paul murder someone too out of jelousy or something :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Merlin said:
			
		

> I think you stepped over the line a bit here. If you want to make a point and it involves sin, it would be better to point to sins of your own, rather than pointing out other's. Pointing out otherss sin is akin to "casting the first stone", if you will, and comes accrss as judgemental (whether or not you meant it that way).


I understand. I certainly do not want to disparage others.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I understand. I certainly do not want to disparage others.




2A, its like I've been trying to explain, and one day - you will understand, as it took me a while too.  You draw more flies with honey


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> Didn't Paul murder someone too out of jelousy or something :shrug:


As Saul, he was a persecutor of Christians until he was struck with the light and spoken to by Jesus from the light on the road to Damascus. As Saul, he killed many Christians.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

dems4me said:
			
		

> 2A, its like I've been trying to explain, and one day - you will understand, as it took me a while too. You draw more flies with honey


I agree with the message of God's love, but to dimiss sin as OK is false religion.


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I agree, but to dimiss sin as OK is false religion.



No but making it a point of pointing out everyone else's sin (unsolicited) but thy own sins is being judgemental and a sin in itself.


----------



## crabcake

2A, I realize that people sin. I sin, you sin, we all sin ... and I won't speak for others on here -- just myself. I find the hardest thing to swallow about you is just how judgemental you come across on here when you're trying to share the gospel, word of God, et al. And I know I'm not the first person to say this. Your comment about Chasey, the people who "deserved to die in the Tsunami because they weren't christian", and others that I don't have the time to look up right now. And I'm no student of the Bible on the level you and others on here are, but I know that that's one of the things that Christians aren't supposed to do -- be judgemental ... fine, think it, seek forgiveness, but you speak/type it ... and that's the blatant hypocrisy that I have repeatedly commented on here about that clouds any good you try to share about the word of God. It's like looking at a white sign that has a little fuschia dot ... you're eye is naturally drawn to the one little dot. 

 Just my two cents.  I'm outta here and getting ready to go camping. Ya'll have a great weekend!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

I found the reference.


> Romans 7:14-25
> <sup id="en-NASB-28106">14</sup>For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.     <sup id="en-NASB-28107">15</sup>For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28108">16</sup>But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28109">17</sup>So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28110">18</sup>For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28111">19</sup>For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28112">20</sup>But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28113">21</sup>I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28114">22</sup>For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28115">23</sup>but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28116">24</sup>Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-28117">25</sup>Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> 2A, I realize that people sin. I sin, you sin, we all sin ... and I won't speak for others on here -- just myself. I find the hardest thing to swallow about you is just how judgemental you come across on here when you're trying to share the gospel, word of God, et al. And I know I'm not the first person to say this. Your comment about Chasey, the people who "deserved to die in the Tsunami because they weren't christian", and others that I don't have the time to look up right now. And I'm no student of the Bible on the level you and others on here are, but I know that that's one of the things that Christians aren't supposed to do -- be judgemental ... fine, think it, seek forgiveness, but you speak/type it ... and that's the blatant hypocrisy that I have repeatedly commented on here about that clouds any good you try to share about the word of God. It's like looking at a white sign that has a little fuschia dot ... you're eye is naturally drawn to the one little dot.
> 
> Just my two cents.  I'm outta here and getting ready to go camping. Ya'll have a great weekend!


I don't disagree that I can come across as harsh. Fire and brimstone if you will. Maybe it is shock value. Too many people only speak of God's love, but His judgment is also real. If I offend you or Elaine or Chasey, even through shock, and it finally connects, then I'll see you in God's kingdom and that will make all the abuse I receive on the board and karma worth it. I really do love you guys; I don't want you to be on the highway to hell. The trip might seem like fun, but the destination is terrible.


----------



## mAlice

crabcake said:
			
		

> Is it still sinning if you go camping with your b/f and share a tent?



Not if you don't have sex.  Apparently the Jews lived together for a year, without having sex, to determine if they liked each other.


----------



## Railroad

I sense that the crux of these recurring discussions is that people don't want to accept what's in the Bible as fact.  We don't have to get hurtful with each other if we recognize that.  Belief in God and accepting His word as fact are two choices available to everyone reading this.  If you choose not to do those things, there's no need to argue with those who do (and vice versa).  

Some of you are taking 2A's statements of fact as arrogance (or beyond arrogance) - and you've taken mine in the same way.  There's a difference, in my view, between a belief and a fact.  I believe the Bible is a book of facts, just as I believe a dictionary or a telephone book is a book of facts.  For example, if you picked up the phone book, looked up someone's telephone number, and called that number, you'd fully expect them to answer the phone if they were home, right?  Well the Bible is much more complex than a phone book, but no less factual.  So (I think I can speak for both 2A and myself when I say this) when 2A and I make statements that sound like we're arrogant, please understand that we see ourselves as stating facts for the benefit of everybody, not being arrogant about our "beliefs" and being "holier than thou" about it.

My two cents - y'all have a great weekend!


----------



## Tonio

Railroad, I appreciate your reply. In my opinion, no religion's teachings qualify as fact, because an individual's personal religious revelation can't be measured or quantified. I believe that to even try to quantify it goes against the whole concept of faith, such as when the "intelligent design" advocates say their theories prove the existence of God. Isn't faith about believing in things that can't be perceived by our normal senses? I'm glad you acknowledged that some people perceive you as sounding arrogant. I believe you and 2A when you say you have others' best interests at heart. Still, when you describe your beliefs as truth, it sounds like an attempt to define other people, to take control of their perceptions. I believe that no one has a monopoly on truth.


----------



## dems4me

Tonio said:
			
		

> Railroad, I appreciate your reply. In my opinion, no religion's teachings qualify as fact, because an individual's personal religious revelation can't be measured or quantified. I believe that to even try to quantify it goes against the whole concept of faith, such as when the "intelligent design" advocates say their theories prove the existence of God. Isn't faith about believing in things that can't be perceived by our normal senses? I'm glad you acknowledged that some people perceive you as sounding arrogant. I believe you and 2A when you say you have others' best interests at heart. Still, when you describe your beliefs as truth, it sounds like an attempt to define other people, to take control of their perceptions. I believe that no one has a monopoly on truth.




I believe the Bible as truth too in its entirety.  But I think its the way you go about smacking someone on the head with it :shrug:


----------



## Nickel

dems4me said:
			
		

> I believe the Bible as truth too in its entirety.  But I think its the way you go about smacking someone on the head with it :shrug:


  Good word choice!


----------



## dems4me

Nickel said:
			
		

> Good word choice!




  Sounds like someone's siggy in the making


----------



## K_Jo

Railroad said:
			
		

> Well the Bible is much more complex than a phone book, but no less factual.  So (I think I can speak for both 2A and myself when I say this) when 2A and I make statements that sound like we're arrogant, please understand that we see ourselves as stating facts for the benefit of everybody, not being arrogant about our "beliefs" and being "holier than thou" about it.


You _believe _ the bible is no less factual than a phone book.  I believe it is meant to be a learning tool and not to be taken literally.  That doesn't make you right and me wrong.  2A's tone in his posts is almost hateful.  That's why I asked if he ever has fun.  He sounds like a guy who's so completely pissed at and disgusted by people who don't believe what he believes that I can't imagine him actually kicking back and enjoying life.  I understand that people really get into their religion, but to tell people they are sinners and they're going to hell just because their beliefs don't match up with yours just doesn't seem like something that would make God happy.


----------



## K_Jo




----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

>




why is everyone waving the flag today :shrug:


----------



## Toxick

Tonio said:
			
		

> I believe that no one has a monopoly on truth.




Well somebody does. Someone *has* to.




There's only one truth.
By definition - there is only *one* truth. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called *THE TRVTH*.



And someone (or many people) out there knows what THE TRVTH is.




And if one person, or group of people know the truth, everyone who disagrees with them is, by defintion, wrong.

Q.E.D.


Caveat: The above proof fails to take into accout the possibility that we're ALL wrong. Luckily for me, I don't believe that either.


----------



## K_Jo

dems4me said:
			
		

> why is everyone waving the flag today :shrug:


Paying tribute to a fallen comrade.


----------



## dems4me

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Paying tribute to a fallen comrade.



awww...


----------



## PJay

elaine said:
			
		

> People were the impetus, studying was the clincher.  But, thanks for your concern.



I was on that road once. I understand.


----------



## Railroad

Tonio said:
			
		

> Railroad, I appreciate your reply. In my opinion, no religion's teachings qualify as fact, because an individual's personal religious revelation can't be measured or quantified. I believe that to even try to quantify it goes against the whole concept of faith, such as when the "intelligent design" advocates say their theories prove the existence of God. Isn't faith about believing in things that can't be perceived by our normal senses? I'm glad you acknowledged that some people perceive you as sounding arrogant. I believe you and 2A when you say you have others' best interests at heart. Still, when you describe your beliefs as truth, it sounds like an attempt to define other people, to take control of their perceptions. I believe that no one has a monopoly on truth.


I know that at least I, and 2A as well, have no intention of taking control of other people's perceptions or to define them.  As far as truth or fact are concerned, facts are facts and time alone will prove some of the more pertinent ones.  And I have no intention of beating anybody over the head with anything - but I expect the same respect in return.

These two topics - gays being sinners and Christians vs. others, keep coming up time after time in here.  We all say the same things over and over.  Nobody changes their positions, sad but true.  I would like to recommend suspending the practice of asking leading questions on the same two topics, over and over again.  Coming back to the same points every week is doing nothing for anyone, and egging each other on to argument on the same old topics is ludicrous.  Someone has said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting the result to change.  

Why try to evoke sadness and anger when you can acknowledge some things (whether or not you accept them is your affair), and move on?  God and His rules aren't going to change because we'd like them to.  Ignore them if you wish - that's your choice.  But let's drop these two useless arguments and move on.


----------



## Railroad

K_Jo said:
			
		

> Paying tribute to a fallen comrade.


May I ask whom it was?


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> Coming back to the same points every week is doing nothing for anyone, and egging each other on to argument on the same old topics is ludicrous.  Someone has said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting the result to change.


I'd like you to note who started this, and the majority of, the threads based upon those subjects.


----------



## Railroad

Nickel said:
			
		

> I'd like you to note who started this, and the majority of, the threads based upon those subjects.


I understand - but he's not trying to start arguments, he's trying to reach people who need the messages he posts. No need to respond in a retort, is there?


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> I understand - but he's not trying to start arguments, he's trying to reach people who need the messages he posts.  No need to respond, is there?


 As you stated above, this topic is a neverending battle.  He knows that.  His message is always the same.  No need to repost, is there?



			
				Railroad said:
			
		

> Someone has said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting the results to change.


I agree.


----------



## Railroad

Nickel said:
			
		

> As you stated above, this topic is a neverending battle. He knows that. His message is always the same. No need to repost, is there?
> 
> I agree.


So then the right answer for you is, Ignore.


----------



## PJay

Railroad said:
			
		

> So then the right answer for you is, Ignore.



Correct. Just like the instructions given to me about finding "chit chat" to be not my style. "Change the station, turn it off"

That simple, really.


----------



## PJay

Nickel said:
			
		

> No need to repost, is there?



Yes. I missed the other ones.


----------



## Nickel

Railroad said:
			
		

> So then the right answer for you is, Ignore.


 My point is that you have to give credit where credit is due.  You ask that the "arguers" not discuss the topic, however the thread starter, who knows that there _will_ be a discussion that will turn heated (because not everyone wishes to ignore) starts the thread.  So yes, the arguers, _should_ ignore the thread, but also, the thread starter, _should_ expect that type of response, as history tends to repeat itself.  This is why we live in America...if someone wishes to say "hey, you know what, I think you're being really harsh", then that's okay, and someone else can say "No, I really don't think I am, maybe you misunderstand me" and so on and so forth.


----------



## K_Jo

Nickel said:
			
		

> My point is that you have to give credit where credit is due.  You ask that the "arguers" not discuss the topic, however the thread starter, who knows that there _will_ be a discussion that will turn heated (because not everyone wishes to ignore) starts the thread.  So yes, the arguers, _should_ ignore the thread, but also, the thread starter, _should_ expect that type of response, as history tends to repeat itself.  This is why we live in America...if someone wishes to say "hey, you know what, I think you're being really harsh", then that's okay, and someone else can say "No, I really don't think I am, maybe you misunderstand me" and so on and so forth.


He _wants _ us to argue.  The more of us who argue, the more chances he gets to spread the word.


----------



## gumbo

dems4me said:
			
		

> Didn't Paul murder someone too out of jelousy or something :shrug:


How can someone that has claimed to have read the Bible and studied Theology ask such a stupid question.  
There is no way you could have possibly read the New Testament and not know what Paul done   

A: Do you play stupid for attention ?
B: Do you have a problem comprehending what you read ?
C: Do you just like to hear yourself  talk ?  
D: All of the above ?


----------



## Common Sense

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I want you to know that I post what I post because I love people, not because I hate them.


  I don't believe we've met


----------



## K_Jo

Common Sense said:
			
		

> I don't believe we've met


:snort:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Common Sense said:
			
		

> I don't believe we've met


Common Sense MPD. 

 I have far more common sense than most. Sorry that you don't see it.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Thanks all those that have given me red. You prove that I am doing what the Lord expects of me and not yeilding to what the world wants me to do.

 May you all find Jesus as Lord and Savior before it is too late.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> May you all find Jesus as Lord and Savior before it is too late.


  Are you saying I'm hell bound if I don't, or are you saying the Bible says I'm hell bound? 

 And for the record, I haven't given you any karma on this thread.


----------



## Midnightrider

Railroad said:
			
		

> There's a difference, in my view, between a belief and a fact. I believe the Bible is a book of facts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the difference is that you believe your beliefs are facts
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> Are you saying I'm hell bound if I don't, or are you saying the Bible says I'm hell bound?
> 
> And for the record, I haven't given you any karma on this thread.


The "you" referred to those giving me red. I don't know where you stand with Jesus or repentance. That is between you and God.

  I don't condemn individuals. The various sinful acts are in the Bible. The Bible is God's users' manual for life; the ultimate instruction book. All I do is post what the Bible says and hope people take action in their own lives. I would love it if everyone on SOMD and in the world agreed with what is in the Bible. I could quit taking all the heart ache from those that hate what I post.


----------



## nomoney

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I could quit taking all the heart ache from those that hate what I post.


I don't think its so much the "what" you post  but more so the"how" you post it


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The "you" referred to those giving me red. I don't know where you stand with Jesus or repentance. That is between you and God.
> 
> I don't condemn individuals. The various sinful acts are in the Bible. The Bible is God's users' manual for life; the ultimate instruction book. All I do is post what the Bible says and hope people take action in their own lives. I would love it if everyone on SOMD and in the world agreed with what is in the Bible. I could quit taking all the heart ache from those that hate what I post.


 I don't think it's that people hate the fact you choose to believe in God and the Bible. I think it's that you portray yourself as almighty, judgemental and condemning in some of your posts _about_ your beliefs.


----------



## crabcake

nomoney said:
			
		

> I don't think its so much the "what" you post  but more so the"how" you post it


 gmta


----------



## Midnightrider

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I have far more common sense than most. Sorry that you don't see it.




yeah, nomo I agree.... this attitude is what is pushing most away.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

nomoney said:
			
		

> I don't think its so much the "what" you post  but more so the"how" you post it


God gives each of His people a mission if they will accept it. Some preach to the choir so they can get "Amens". I often post the harsh Truth. I don't do so to hurt or judge. I do so because many people go to church every Sunday and do not have a personal relationship with God. Some people pray and wonder why it seems God is not listening. He is always listening. He answers His children and those seeking to be His child. All I am trying to do is shake the sleepers into waking up.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> All I am trying to do is shake the sleepers into waking up.


 But you do so in a judgemental manner ... and I know I'm not the first to say that. And it's not your "charge" by God to be judgemental.


----------



## nomoney

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> God gives each of His people a mission if they will accept it. Some preach to the choir so they can get "Amens". I often post the harsh Truth. I don't do so to hurt or judge. I do so because many people go to church every Sunday and do not have a personal relationship with God. Some people pray and wonder why it seems God is not listening. He is always listening. He answers His children and those seeking to be His child. All I am trying to do is shake the sleepers into waking up.


 
2A; this is my stance:IMO, trying to tell someone (that did not ask your opinion) that their religion is flawed is in the same league as volunteering to someone (who did not ask you) that they chose their spouse poorly, and should discard them.  I do not join in the religion talks mostly for these feelings.  I think you get the hate and discontent because you are not telling these people the harsh truth ; you are quite matter factly pushing your own *beliefs *on others who believe quite strongly in their own *beliefs*.  You have no way to prove that anything is actual fact until you meet your creator face to face.  Until then many may be upset with the fact that you keep posting about certain types of people needing to find your god before they perish in the pits of hell.  
My motto : "you do your thing and I'll do mine" .  I figure-why do I want to over populate my final resting place with a bunch of loony's that had to be told the "right way" to begin with. :shrug:


----------



## Chasey_Lane

nomoney said:
			
		

> I figure-why do I want to over populate my final resting place with a bunch of loony's that had to be told the "right way" to begin with. :shrug:


That's a great persepective, nomo!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

nomoney said:
			
		

> 2A; this is my stance:IMO, ...r factly pushing your own *beliefs *on others who believe quite strongly in their own *beliefs*. ...


Everything I post or base my posts on in the Religion forum is from the canonical Bible. It is the Truth. If others don't believe, that is their free will.

   There is either absolute Truth, or every person is free to decide what is truth and there is no truth at all. At that point, I could decide that there is no such thing as murder and just start hunting people. No big deal; it would be OK with my truth.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Everything I post or base my posts on in the Religion forum is from the canonical Bible. *I believe* it is the Truth. If others don't believe, that is their free will.


 fixed 

 See how easy that is? :shrug: Unless you're the God you proclaim you believe in, you don't know what is truth/fact and not; you _believe_ it to be truth/fact. 

 BIG difference.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> fixed
> 
> See how easy that is? :shrug: Unless you're the God you proclaim you believe in, you don't know what is truth/fact and not; you _believe_ it to be truth/fact.
> 
> BIG difference.


Don't fix my posts, please. I *know* that the Bible is the Truth.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Don't fix my posts, please. I *know* that the Bible is the Truth.


No, you don't.  You BELIEVE it to be true.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Don't fix my posts, please. I *know* that the Bible is the Truth.


 No, you *believe* it. Did you travel back in time? Were you there when it was written? Did you listen in on the discussions between God and those who put it to print? Did God speak directly to you and say, yes, it's the truth; and if you say yes, can you prove it wasn't just a mental dillusion?

 Why must you insist that your way is the ONLY way? :shrug:


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> No, you *believe* it. Did you travel back in time? Were you there when it was written? Did you listen in on the discussions between God and those who put it to print? Did God speak directly to you and say, yes, it's the truth; and if you say yes, can you prove it wasn't just a mental dillusion?
> 
> Why must you insist that your way is the ONLY way? :shrug:


Why must you insist that I don't know what I know? I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I know He is real; He answers my prayers; He has given me gifts of the Holy Spirit to do things I cannot do in my own power. *I know Him and He knows me. *That is how I know the Bible is real. Let me put it to you this way, if someone were to hold a gun to my head and say renounce God and the Bible, or I will kill you; they would just have to kill me.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> *I know Him and He knows me. *


Ask him what he had for dinner last night.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Why must you insist that I don't know what I know? I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I know He is real; He answers my prayers; He has given me gifts of the Holy Spirit to do things I cannot do in my own power. *I know Him and He knows me. *That is how I know the Bible is real. Let me put it to you this way, if someone were to hold a gun to my head and say renounce God and the Bible, or I will kill you; they would just have to kill me.


 If you're not the "all-knowing, all powerful" ... then you _believe_. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with _what_ you believe. But your choice of words (e.g., "I KNOW" "it's FACT") when you are *not* all-knowing is highly arrogant ... you're saying that unless I or others believe what you claim to "know" we're all wrong and going to hell. And I believe THAT is wrong!  

 And you wonder why you get the responses you do when you post.


----------



## crabcake

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Ask him what he had for dinner last night.


 we need a :snort: smilie.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

CC, I leave you and Chasey to your beliefs. It is obvious that what I know is not what you believe. Have enjoyable lives. God is ready and able when you are.


----------



## carolinagirl

2A -I agree that it is not what you say, it is how you say it.  I consider myself a believer, but I am also a sinner as are all mortal men/women.  It is fine to believe and be strong in the abundance of faith that you have.  I commend you for taking such a strong stance in favor of God especially in this day and age.  But as my pastor has always stated, you must also remember that each person is on his or her own journey, whether it be toward God or toward Hell.  It is not for anyone else to judge and it is not for any of us to say repent now or you go to hell.  It is also not for us to tell people that are saved that they now have to follow the letter of the law (in this case the Bible).  Each person's walk with God, is just that - THEIR walk with God.

I have witnessed things about God to my friends and family, but I do it through a testimony as to what God has done for me personally or what He has brought me through.  I don't try to take a verse from the Bible and show people what they are doing wrong.  That is the difference, on one hand I can say, "hey, I have been through some stuff and this is what God did for me. Versus saying, "Your living in sin and if you don't change, the Bible says your going to hell and God won't bless you.

My opinion iis that is better to show and tell what God has done in your life, than to point out everyone else's fault according to the gospel.


----------



## Toxick

crabcake said:
			
		

> Why must you insist that your way is the ONLY way? :shrug:




Why do people insist that there is not only one way? 


I hear people saying things like, "Everybody's belief is as valid to them as yours is to you." And "Why are you stubborn and close-minded and have the AUDACITY to ACTUALLY BELIEVE in your belief system."

Am I the only one who finds these arguments ridiculous - and frankly, stupid?

If he didn't believe (or know) that he was right - why would he follow these beliefs it in the first place? 

It's like I said the other day: By definition, everyone who disagrees with those who are correct are INCORRECT. Is it stubborn and close-minded to insist that everyone breath air to survive? Is it stubborn and close-minded to insist that 2+2=4?



If you know (or believe) something to be true, it's pointless and stupid to NOT insist it's the right way.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> It is obvious that what I believe is not what you believe.


Agreed!


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> CC, I leave you and Chasey to your beliefs. It is obvious that what I know is not what you believe. Have enjoyable lives. God is ready and able when you are.


 You have no clue what I believe because you never asked. You only preached what you *believe* to be the truth, which I never discredited or said was wrong. 

 I struggle with my own beliefs and would love to have faith in something, because my faith in people is severely diminished. But one thing is for certain -- nobody who claims to know it all and act like some wanna-be God is gonna get very far with convincing me to take a look at what he/she has to say.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> 2A -I agree that it is not what you say, it is how you say it. I consider myself a believer, but I am also a sinner as are all mortal men/women. It is fine to believe and be strong in the abundance of faith that you have. I commend you for taking such a strong stance in favor of God especially in this day and age. But as my pastor has always stated, you must also remember that each person is on his or her own journey, whether it be toward God or toward Hell. It is not for anyone else to judge and it is not for any of us to say repent now or you go to hell. It is also not for us to tell people that are saved that they now have to follow the letter of the law (in this case the Bible). Each person's walk with God, is just that - THEIR walk with God.
> 
> I have witnessed things about God to my friends and family, but I do it through a testimony as to what God has done for me personally or what He has brought me through. I don't try to take a verse from the Bible and show people what they are doing wrong. That is the difference, on one hand I can say, "hey, I have been through some stuff and this is what God did for me. Versus saying, "Your living in sin and if you don't change, the Bible says your going to hell and God won't bless you.
> 
> My opinion iis that is better to show and tell what God has done in your life, than to point out everyone else's fault according to the gospel.


That is great ... for you. We are each called to different ministries and approaches.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> You have no clue what I believe because you never asked. You only preached what you *believe* to be the truth, which I never discredited or said was wrong.
> 
> I struggle with my own beliefs and would love to have faith in something, because my faith in people is severely diminished. But one thing is for certain -- nobody who claims to know it all and act like some wanna-be God is gonna get very far with convincing me to take a look at what he/she has to say.


Hey, if you knew as I know, then you would not be arguing against but for the Bible; you would not question that I know what I know, because you would know also.


----------



## carolinagirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> That is great ... for you.



 So, are you saying rather than to give a testimony, you feel God has called you to point out others faults through versus?

Not being sarcastic, just asking for clarification.


----------



## crabcake

Toxick said:
			
		

> Why do people insist that there is not only one way?
> 
> 
> I hear people saying things like, "Everybody's belief is as valid to them as yours is to you." And "Why are you stubborn and close-minded and have the AUDACITY to ACTUALLY BELIEVE in your belief system."
> 
> Am I the only one who finds these arguments ridiculous - and frankly, stupid?
> 
> If he didn't believe (or know) that he was right - why would he follow these beliefs it in the first place?
> 
> It's like I said the other day: By definition, everyone who disagrees with those who are correct are INCORRECT. Is it stubborn and close-minded to insist that everyone breath air to survive? Is it stubborn and close-minded to insist that 2+2=4?
> 
> 
> 
> If you know (or believe) something to be true, it's pointless and stupid to NOT insist it's the right way.


 I've not said that *what* he believes is wrong. It's the words and way in which he tries to do "Gods work" that I (and others who've spoken up) dislike.  Religion is a personal choice -- as is the choice to not believe in any religion-- and everyone interprets things differently. Nobody is in any position to tell someone else that they are wrong, their beliefs are wrong, or that they are going to hell. There's nothing wrong with saying, "This is what I believe." But to say "This is what is FACT" when there is no way possible for that person to know it's fact is ignorant.


----------



## Kizzy

CG  Very good post BTW.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> So, are you saying rather than to give a testimony, you feel God has called you to point out others faults through versus?
> 
> Not being sarcastic, just asking for clarification.


Each is called to proclaim the Word, some in one way and some in another. I quote the Bible. The Bible says it is offensive and not understandable to those not of the Spirit. Maybe it is my ministry to be the one crying in the wilderness, so that those that do not accept cannot say they have not heard.

  It would be so much easier on me to do like dems says and just say the good stuff. I wish I could, but, for some reason, I can't. I proclaim scripture. That is what I am led to do.


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Hey, if you knew as I know, then you would not be arguing against but for the Bible; you would not question that I know what I know, because you would know also.


 I'm not arguing against the bible or saying your indivdiual belief system is jacked up. You *believe* in the bible, accept Jesus as your savior, and that's fine. I believe in the dictionary, and understand the difference between "belief" and "fact". Your choice of words is wrong because you aren't God, nor were you present when any bible was written. _That_ is a fact.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

crabcake said:
			
		

> I'm not arguing against the bible or saying your indivdiual belief system is jacked up. You *believe* in the bible, accept Jesus as your savior, and that's fine. I believe in the dictionary, and understand the difference between "belief" and "fact". Your choice of words is wrong because you aren't God, nor were you present when any bible was written. _That_ is a fact.


Believe as you will.


----------



## pixiegirl

*I'm loving Thomas*

45) Jesus said: Grapes are not harvested from thorn-bushes, nor are figs gathered from hawthorns, [f]or they yield no fruit. [A go]od man brings forth good from his treasure; a bad man brings forth evil things from his evil treasure, which is in his heart, and he says evil things, for out of the abundance of his heart he brings froth evil things.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I proclaim scripture. That is what I am led to do.




I'm not really seeing you proclaiming scripture.  I see you regurgitating what some cyber nutjob is publishing on his web site.


----------



## Toxick

crabcake said:
			
		

> I've not said that *what* he believes is wrong. It's the words and way in which he tries to do "Gods work" that I (and others who've spoken up) dislike.




You, and others, seem to be taking it as a personal affront that 2A is not allowing for the possibility and insertting disclaimers that other religions might be correct. 

It seems to offend people that he not only believes what he believes, but actually has the nerve to defend and promote it.


And it's not just 2A, and it's not just the people on this board. This seems to be the modus operandi just about anywhere I go. People are shocked and offended when a Christian has the gall to exalt and promote God and Jesus within earshot. "Don't push your belief system on me!".

Ironically these are often the same people who say that Gay Pride parades are not intrusive and "don't bother anybody" when they clog up traffic and act as In-Yer-Face as humanly possible.



While 2A's style is a bit blunt and non-diplomoatic for my tastes, I see nothing wrong with holding true to his beliefs (or knowledge) and not sugar-coating it for the great unwashed.



And this arguing semantics between "Believe" and "Know" is an exercise in stubborn futility.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

pixiegirl said:
			
		

> 45) Jesus said: Grapes are not harvested from thorn-bushes, nor are figs gathered from hawthorns, [f]or they yield no fruit. [A go]od man brings forth good from his treasure; a bad man brings forth evil things from his evil treasure, which is in his heart, and he says evil things, for out of the abundance of his heart he brings froth evil things.


And that is different from 





> Mathew 7
> <sup id="en-NASB-23333">16</sup>"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23334">17</sup>"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23335">18</sup>"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23336">19</sup>"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
> 
> <sup id="en-NASB-23337">20</sup>"So then, you will know them by their fruits.


 how?


----------



## pixiegirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> And that is different from  how?



This part.  

A go]od man brings forth good from his treasure; a bad man brings forth evil things from his evil treasure, which is in his heart, and he says evil things, for out of the abundance of his heart he brings froth evil things.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> I'm not really seeing you proclaiming scripture. I see you regurgitating what some cyber nutjob is publishing on his web site.


I often just quote scripture and get the same reaction. :shrug: When the "cyber nutjob" (slander?) writes something that is particularly to the point, why should I paraphrase and claim his work? I have permission to repost.


----------



## crabcake

Toxick said:
			
		

> You, and others, seem to be taking it as a personal affront that 2A is not allowing for the possibility and insertting disclaimers that other religions might be correct.
> 
> It seems to offend people that he not only believes what he believes, but actually has the nerve to defend and promote it.
> 
> 
> And it's not just 2A, and it's not just the people on this board. This seems to be the modus operandi just about anywhere I go. People are shocked and offended when a Christian has the gall to exalt and promote God and Jesus within earshot. "Don't push your belief system on me!".
> 
> Ironically these are often the same people who say that Gay Pride parades are not intrusive and "don't bother anybody" when they clog up traffic and act as In-Yer-Face as humanly possible.
> 
> 
> 
> While 2A's style is a bit blunt and non-diplomoatic for my tastes, I see nothing wrong with holding true to his beliefs (or knowledge) and not sugar-coating it for the great unwashed.
> 
> 
> 
> And this arguing semantics between "Believe" and "Know" is an exercise in stubborn futility.


 It is not my job in life to tell anyone what they should/should not think, feel, believe, they're going to hell, etc. And I have not told 2A his beliefs are jacked up, nor anyone else. I've simply stated (as others have) that if he is sincere in his desire to "do God's work" and "spread the word", then he ought to reconsider his choice of words and tone in doing so -- period. And not to misrepresent his "beliefs" as "facts". There is a difference, and sadly enough, there are people out there who are stupid enough to _not_ understand the difference.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

pixiegirl said:
			
		

> This part.
> 
> A go]od man brings forth good from his treasure; a bad man brings forth evil things from his evil treasure, which is in his heart, and he says evil things, for out of the abundance of his heart he brings froth evil things.


good man -> good tree
 evil man -> tree that does not bear good fruit

 See it now?


----------



## crabcake

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> good man -> good tree
> evil man -> tree that does not bear good fruit
> 
> See it now?


 If the message is the same, what difference does it make that she found it from a difference reference?


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> (slander?)



That is what I believe, therefor it is fact.


----------



## pixiegirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> good man -> good tree
> evil man -> tree that does not bear good fruit
> 
> See it now?



I see that and also see it as what he offers to the world around him.  

I totally respect you beliefs.  What I don't think you get though is at least in my opinion and from the unpopular reaction you get here is you're method is flawed and you're really doing more harm then good.  I'm not saying the message you're trying to convey is wrong (who am I to say what is wrong and right when I'm still seeking knowledge myself) but I'd venture to say that "how" you convey it probably turns more people away from God then to him.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> good man -> good tree
> evil man -> tree that does not bear good fruit
> 
> See it now?




You're missing the point of the scripture.  You are not bringing forth good fruit.  You've been missing it all along.  That's what has everyone up in arms.  You choose to believe it's everyone's hatred for the 'word', but it isn't.  It's everyone's hatred for the way you are presenting the word.  You have inadvertantly put yourself on a pedestal and your blind faith will not allow you to see it.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

elaine said:
			
		

> You're missing the point of the scripture. You are not bringing forth good fruit. You've been missing it all along. That's what has everyone up in arms. You choose to believe it's everyone's hatred for the 'word', but it isn't. It's everyone's hatred for the way you are presenting the word. You have inadvertantly put yourself on a pedestal and your blind faith will not allow you to see it.


If you say so, but those of the Bible who proclaimed the Truth were always hated by those that were proclaimed to unless they were of the Spirit. 

 If I were to say it is OK to sin. Just do what ever you want and you'll still go to heaven would be very evil because it is not true.

 I'll pray about it.


----------



## crabcake

pixiegirl said:
			
		

> I see that and also see it as what he offers to the world around him.
> 
> I totally respect you beliefs. What I don't think you get though is at least in my opinion and from the unpopular reaction you get here is you're method is flawed and you're really doing more harm then good. I'm not saying the message you're trying to convey is wrong (who am I to say what is wrong and right when I'm still seeking knowledge myself) but I'd venture to say that "how" you convey it probably turns more people away from God then to him.


  

 Somehow, though, I doubt it'll sink in ... even though you're at least the 4th person to say this exact same thing.


----------



## carolinagirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Each is called to proclaim the Word, some in one way and some in another. I quote the Bible. The Bible says it is offensive and not understandable to those not of the Spirit. Maybe it is my ministry to be the one crying in the wilderness, so that those that do not accept cannot say they have not heard.
> 
> It would be so much easier on me to do like dems says and just say the good stuff. I wish I could, but, for some reason, I can't. I proclaim scripture. That is what I am led to do.




Wow, again that to me sounds so judgmental that instead of being able to say, Lord, I brought as many wayward sheep back into your flock as I could through my testimony of what you have done in my life,"  you would rather say, "Lord, I preached your word according to the Bible, and I don't know that I change anyone's life or led them back to you, but at least they can't come before you and say they didn't know what their sins where."

The thing is - I can't help but think that you have gotten to this point of your faith in God and the Bible not only through reading and studying, but first because of life experiences and the goodness that God has bestowed upon you.  But instead of relating any of that to us, you only quote scriptures that mostly send a negative overature about living a sinful life.  The Bible full of scriptures that don't talk about one's sins.  My favorite is:

1 Corinthians 13
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I think this verse gives people hope and understanding of what God's love is all about and what God wants for their lives.  Not for a person to be in an abusive situation.  And it is not about just stating the good, this verse is also the truth, and I would venture to say that if I past this message on to a group of individuals that were struggling with their belief in God versus a message from you saying fornication is a sin and you should repent and change immediately or you will be destined for hell, that I would probably convert more of those individuals.  Once they see and witness the goodness of God, then they will be more open to read and hear about sins they may be committing.  For me personally, that is how I felt.  Once I saw His goodness, I was willing to whole heartedly embrace His total message.  That doesn't mean I am without fault and sin, it is just that I strive to reach His goal and purpose for my life.


----------



## pixiegirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you say so, but those of the Bible who proclaimed the Truth were always hated by those that were proclaimed to unless they were of the Spirit.



Take it like this....

How many homosexuals are there on these boards?  Not many.  Yet you consistantly start threads pertaining to this subject.  You're not converting any homosexuals into Christians but you are very possibly making Christians or those on the fence turn away because they don't want to prescribe to your harsh views. 

Several days ago someone made a post posing the question why don't you start threads that are more relevant to your audience?  Why not start threads on infidelity or coveting?


----------



## Tonio

crabcake said:
			
		

> It is not my job in life to tell anyone what they should/should not think, feel, believe, they're going to hell, etc. And I have not told 2A his beliefs are jacked up, nor anyone else. I've simply stated (as others have) that if he is sincere in his desire to "do God's work" and "spread the word", then he ought to reconsider his choice of words and tone in doing so -- period. And not to misrepresent his "beliefs" as "facts".


----------



## Chasey_Lane

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If I were to say it is OK to sin. Just do what ever you want and you'll still go to heaven would be very evil because it is not true.
> 
> I'll pray about it.


Not true!  You said yourself that those who repent will see God.


----------



## crabcake

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> Wow, again that to me sounds so judgmental that instead of being able to say, Lord, I brought as many wayward sheep back into your flock as I could through my testimony of what you have done in my life," you would rather say, "Lord, I preached your word according to the Bible, and I don't know that I change anyone's life or led them back to you, but at least they can't come before you and say they didn't know what their sins where."
> 
> The thing is - I can't help but think that you have gotten to this point of your faith in God and the Bible not only through reading and studying, but first because of life experiences and the goodness that God has bestowed upon you. But instead of relating any of that to us, you only quote scriptures that mostly send a negative overature about living a sinful life. The Bible full of scriptures that don't talk about one's sins. My favorite is:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 13
> 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
> 
> I think this verse gives people hope and understanding of what God's love is all about and what God wants for their lives. Not for a person to be in an abusive situation. And it is not about just stating the good, this verse is also the truth, and I would venture to say that if I past this message on to a group of individuals that were struggling with their belief in God versus a message from you saying fornication is a sin and you should repent and change immediately or you will be destined for hell, that I would probably convert more of those individuals. Once they see and witness the goodness of God, then they will be more open to read and hear about sins they may be committing. For me personally, that is how I felt. Once I saw His goodness, I was willing to whole heartedly embrace His total message. That doesn't mean I am without fault and sin, it is just that I strive to reach His goal and purpose for my life.


  Excellent Post!  I've thought for a long time that 2A's posts have likely driven more away than drawn those like me who are "on the fence" to any semblance of a religious faith.


----------



## Chasey_Lane

crabcake said:
			
		

> Excellent Post!  I've thought for a long time that 2A's posts have likely driven more away than drawn those like me who are "on the fence" to any semblance of a religious faith.


CG has already sold me!    I'd have to problem sitting down with her and learning more about her beliefs.


----------



## carolinagirl

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you say so, but those of the Bible who proclaimed the Truth were always hated by those that were proclaimed to unless they were of the Spirit.
> 
> If I were to say it is OK to sin. Just do what ever you want and you'll still go to heaven would be very evil because it is not true.
> 
> I'll pray about it.



2A - with all due respect, you have made a comment similar to this before.  It makes me think that you feel you are like some sacrifical lamb for God and that His mission for you is to spread the word and be hated.  His purpose for your life, may in fact be to spread his word, but I think you should definitely be open to how you spread that message.  Think about it this way, time and time again you come on here and post after post people go back and forth with you about the delivery of your message.  It always ends up with the same comments from you and us.  Maybe there is a reason for that, maybe God does not feel like you are listening to Him about your purpose, so through us, He is trying to get you to see that your delivery of His message is wrong.  Just a thought.


----------



## crabcake

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> Maybe there is a reason for that, maybe God does not feel like you are listening to Him about your purpose, so through us, He is trying to get you to see that your delivery of His message is wrong. Just a thought.


 : :


----------



## Chasey_Lane

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> 2A - with all due respect, you have made a comment similar to this before.  It makes me think that you feel you are like some sacrifical lamb for God and that His mission for you is to spread the word and be hated.  His purpose for your life, may in fact be to spread his word, but I think you should definitely be open to how you spread that message.  Think about it this way, time and time again you come on here and post after post people go back and forth with you about the delivery of your message.  It always ends up with the same comments from you and us.  Maybe there is a reason for that, maybe God does not feel like you are listening to Him about your purpose, so through us, He is trying to get you to see that your delivery of His message is wrong.  Just a thought.


Too bad I already gave you green.


----------



## mAlice

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you say so, but those of the Bible who proclaimed the Truth were always hated by those that were proclaimed to unless they were of the Spirit.
> 
> If I were to say it is OK to sin. Just do what ever you want and you'll still go to heaven would be very evil because it is not true.
> 
> I'll pray about it.




Well then...you must be doing something wrong because I don't think anyone here hates you.  

No one is saying for you to teach that it's okay to sin.  They're suggesting you find a more loving approach.  

I've studied the bible.  Even if I'm wrong, and there really is a god, he's not taking you to heaven with him.


----------



## crabcake

Chasey_Lane said:
			
		

> Too bad I already gave you green.


  I not-so-sinfully smacked her with some.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Thank you all, especially elaine and CG.


----------



## mAlice

You're welcome.


----------



## dems4me

gumbo said:
			
		

> How can someone that has claimed to have read the Bible and studied Theology ask such a stupid question.
> There is no way you could have possibly read the New Testament and not know what Paul done
> 
> A: Do you play stupid for attention ?
> B: Do you have a problem comprehending what you read ?
> C: Do you just like to hear yourself  talk ?
> D: All of the above ?




D.  Ya' really got me pegged


----------



## dems4me

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you say so, but those of the Bible who proclaimed the Truth were always hated by those that were proclaimed to unless they were of the Spirit.
> 
> If I were to say it is OK to sin. Just do what ever you want and you'll still go to heaven would be very evil because it is not true.
> 
> I'll pray about it.




2A, I used to be just like you when teaching others about the word of God.  I had to learn - as it too was drummed to me -- that "you attract more flies with honey..." than the way I was going about it... I understand its something close to your heart and that's fine, I too have that passion, but what may help you as has helped me in the past, is to stop and pray for the correct words before you speak.  Pray before you speak, and you will notice your message comes out alot better received.  It did for me... the deafer the ears my message would fall on the more determined I'd get... when all I needed to do was realize it wasn't working my way (your way too) and stop and pray for the right words.


----------



## dems4me

2A - don't feel bad... the red-devil left some red marks on me too throughout this thread... this was the latest.. at least it was funny!!! 


Red Square -- Pray before you speak, and you will notice your message comes out alot better received -- please apply this to typing as well. TIA




It's a good thing I rarely type


----------



## Nickel

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> So, are you saying rather than to give a testimony, you feel God has called you to point out others faults through versus?
> 
> Not being sarcastic, just asking for clarification.


 Apparantly it's the biblical version of "Mean Girls".


----------



## K_Jo

Nickel said:
			
		

> Apparantly it's the biblical version of "Mean Girls".


That is SO fetch!


----------



## newtosomd

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> If you say so, but those of the Bible who proclaimed the Truth were always hated by those that were proclaimed to unless they were of the Spirit.
> 
> If I were to say it is OK to sin. Just do what ever you want and you'll still go to heaven would be very evil because it is not true.
> 
> I'll pray about it.




2nd, I think your intentions are good and I believe it says somewhere in the Bible that God knows(is able to discern) your motives.  I simply stick to the Bible.  I have been taught to pray for understanding and I depend on God(Holy Spirit) to help me understand his word.  I learn more every time I read.


----------



## Common Sense

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I have far more common sense than most.


 No, I'm pretty sure you don't.  And I would know.


----------



## Marie

migtig said:


> The Father could mean anything.  I think he called himself a Shepherd too.  But he was a Carpenter.  Where did he himself claim to be the only base born child of "God"? Yes, I know his followers said.  Yes, I know the Romans put a sign up, yes, I know the "stories" of how he was created.  But what I want is where he himself declared that he was the Messiah, the Christ, not where other folks claimed it for him.


He said I am, (meaning God)This was a enough for the Pharisee to want to stone him for Blashmey. 
Joh 8:58  Jesus sayd unto them, Verely, verely I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am. 
Joh 8:59  Then tooke they vp stones, to cast at him, but Iesus hid himselfe, and went out of the Temple: And hee passed through the middes of them, and so went his way. 
This is Spelled out in Exodus 3:14
Exo 3:14  And God answered Moses, I Am That I Am. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 

Then there was Gods Direct Claim That This Is My Son Of Whom I well pleased
at his Baptism and on two other occassions. Thats enough validation right there when God speaks.

These all support the trininty Not Christ self proffession

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heauen and the earth. 
Elohim(God) in Hebrew is plural used with a singular verb

Gen 1:26 Furthermore God said, Let vs make man in our image according to our likenes, and let them rule ouer the fish of the sea, and ouer the foule of the heauen, and ouer the beastes, and ouer all the earth, and ouer euery thing that creepeth and moueth on the earth. 


Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Beholde, the man is become as one of vs, to knowe good and euill; nowe lest he put foorth his hand, and take also of ye tree of life & eate & liue for euer, 


Gen 11:7 Come on, let vs goe downe, and there confound their language, that euery one perceiue not anothers speache. 


Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heauens and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lorde God made the earth and the heauens, 


Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended vp to heauen, and descended? Who hath gathered the winde in his fist? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the endes of the world? What is his name, and what is his sonnes name, if thou canst tell? 

Ecc 12:1 Remember nowe thy Creator in the daies of thy youth, whiles the euill daies come not, nor the yeeres approche, wherein thou shalt say, I haue no pleasure in them:
(original Plural Creators)
Isa 48:16 Come neere vnto me: heare ye this: I haue not spoken it in secret from the beginning: from the time that the thing was, I was there, and now the Lord God and his Spirit hath sent me. 


Isa 63:9 In all their troubles he was troubled, and the Angel of his presence saued them: in his loue and in his mercie he redeemed them, and he bare them and caried them alwayes continually. 
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore was hee turned to be their enemie and he fought against them. 

Westminister confession of faith chapt 2

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]


[38] (Traditionally, I John 5:7 is placed here, but we have, for obvious reasons, omitted it in our online edition) MATT 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. MATT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. II COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[39] JOHN 1:14,18 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[40] JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me. GAL 4:6 And Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


False Veiews of the trinity are Modelism like TD Jakes Believes & Tri-Thesism

The doctrine of the trininty was made popular about the time of the council of Nicea AD 325


----------



## Marie

Goofing_Off said:


> Dazed, instead of simply disparaging us for our beliefs, would you instead elaborate on what you believe in?  I'd be interested to know what you think is the truth.


Not My Words, But this says it all a complete faith statement.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, 
maker of heaven and earth. 
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, 
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, 
born of the virgin Mary, 
suffered under Pontius Pilate, 
was crucified, died and was buried. 
He descended into hell. 
The third day He rose again from the dead. 
He ascended into heaven 
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. 
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead. 
I believe in the Holy Spirit, 
the holy Christian[3] Church, 
the communion of saints, 
the forgiveness of sins, 
the resurrection of the body, 
and the life everlasting. Amen.[4]


----------



## Marie

crabcake said:


> It is not my job in life to tell anyone what they should/should not think, feel, believe, they're going to hell, etc. And I have not told 2A his beliefs are jacked up, nor anyone else. I've simply stated (as others have) that if he is sincere in his desire to "do God's work" and "spread the word", then he ought to reconsider his choice of words and tone in doing so -- period. And not to misrepresent his "beliefs" as "facts". There is a difference, and sadly enough, there are people out there who are stupid enough to _not_ understand the difference.


Wow What A differnt philosphy, Mine is that was the very reason we were created was to tell others, thats the whole purpose of mans exsistence!


----------



## tommyjones

Marie said:


> Wow What A differnt philosphy, Mine is that was the very reason we were created was to tell others, thats the whole purpose of mans exsistence!



WoW, your god must really have an inferiority complex.....


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*



			
				2Amendment said:
			
		

> *Jesus is either the biggest fraud in history or He is exactly who He claims to be. *


 It is unfair to make that into an either-or question because there is a large amount of middle ground.

Who Jesus claimed to be is a separate question in itself.

Jesus called himself the "son of man" and others called Him the "son of God" link HERE.

Just because the Orthodox Christianity interpretation of Christ is wrong does not make Jesus into a fraud.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> It is unfair to make that into an either-or question because there is a large amount of middle ground.
> 
> Who Jesus claimed to be is a separate question in itself.
> 
> Jesus called himself the "son of man" and others called Him the "son of God" link HERE.
> 
> Just because the Orthodox Christianity interpretation of Christ is wrong does not make Jesus into a fraud.





 I will admit if anyone knows fraud it would be you .You constant babble proves you to be an ignorant fruad and abuser.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> It is unfair to make that into an either-or question because there is a large amount of middle ground.
> 
> Who Jesus claimed to be is a separate question in itself.
> 
> Jesus called himself the "son of man" and others called Him the "son of God" link HERE.
> 
> Just because the Orthodox Christianity interpretation of Christ is wrong does not make Jesus into a fraud.



There is no middle ground when it comes to Jesus. He said so. He said if you are lukewarm He will spit you out of His mouth. 





> Revelation 3:14-24
> 
> 14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
> 
> 15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
> 
> 16'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
> 
> 17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
> 
> 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
> 
> 19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
> 
> 20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
> 
> 21'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
> 
> 22'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"



You are either for Him or against Him.


----------



## JPC sr

2ndAmendment said:


> There is no middle ground when it comes to Jesus. He said so. He said if you are lukewarm He will spit you out of His mouth.
> 
> You are either for Him or against Him.


 That is mis-using the text.

Being "Laodicean lukewarm" link HERE does not mean that we must accept the Orthodox Christian interpretation of Jesus or else it is a fraud.

That was the point, and it still is the topic of this thread.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> That is mis-using the text.
> 
> Being "Laodicean lukewarm" link HERE does not mean that we must accept the Orthodox Christian interpretation of Jesus or else it is a fraud.
> 
> That was the point, and it still is the topic of this thread.




 Since you act like you know all ,what do you think Jesus would think about how you treated your family,how you ran out on your son , or ran out when your ex dying of cancer asked for help with your own son and you refused to help,or how you promote child neglect and abuse by telling parents not to pay child support???


----------



## Giantone

2ndAmendment said:


> You are either for Him or against Him.




         Amen!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

> Jesus is either the...     10-09-2007 07:23 PM     if you knew anything, you would know that god does not need our praise or us forcing his word on others. God will help people, you will only disgrace his name with your hate. TJ


TJ (tommyjones),
I don't hate anyone. If you knew me, you would know that. But I will not assume a politically correct stance on the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. It stands and I stand on it.

We are instructed to praise God in the Bible.





> Psalm 100
> All Men Exhorted to Praise God.
> A Psalm for Thanksgiving.
> 1Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth.
> 2Serve the LORD with gladness;
> Come before Him with joyful singing.
> 3Know that the LORD Himself is God;
> It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
> We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.
> 4Enter His gates with thanksgiving
> And His courts with praise
> Give thanks to Him, bless His name.
> 5For the LORD is good;
> His lovingkindness is everlasting
> And His faithfulness to all generations.





> Psalm 150
> A Psalm of Praise.
> 1Praise the LORD!
> Praise God in His sanctuary;
> Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
> 2Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
> Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
> 3Praise Him with trumpet sound;
> Praise Him with harp and lyre.
> 4Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
> Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
> 5Praise Him with loud cymbals;
> Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
> 6Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
> Praise the LORD!


We are to proclaim the Gospel in season and out, in other words, all the time to everyone.


> Matthew 28:18-20
> 
> 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
> 
> 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
> 
> 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."





> 2 Timothy 4:1-4
> "Preach the Word"
> 1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
> 
> 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
> 
> 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
> 
> 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


The words "reprove, rebuke, exhort" are not exactly passive are they?





> Main Entry:    *re·prove*
> Pronunciation:    <tt>ri-'prüv</tt>
> Function:    _verb_
> Inflected Form(s):    *re·proved*; *re·prov·ing*
> Etymology:    Middle English _repreven, reproven,_ from Anglo-French _reprover,_ from Late Latin _reprobare_ to disapprove, condemn, from Latin _re-_ + _probare_ to test, approve  -- more at [SIZE=-1]PROVE[/SIZE]
> _transitive verb_
> *1* *:* to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent
> *2* *:* to express disapproval of  *: [SIZE=-1]CENSURE[/SIZE]* <<it is="" not="" for="" me="" to="">_reprove_ popular taste  -- D. W. Brogan>
> *3* _obsolete_ *: [SIZE=-1]DISPROVE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]REFUTE[/SIZE]*
> *4* _obsolete_ *: [SIZE=-1]CONVINCE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]CONVICT[/SIZE]*
> _intransitive verb_ *:* to express rebuke or reproof
> - *re·prov·er* _noun_
> - *re·prov·ing·ly*   /<tt>-'prü-vi[ng]-lE</tt>/ _adverb_
> *synonyms* [SIZE=-1]REPROVE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]REBUKE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]REPRIMAND[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]ADMONISH[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]REPROACH[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]CHIDE[/SIZE][/SIZE] mean to criticize adversely. [SIZE=-1]REPROVE[/SIZE] implies an often kindly intent to correct a fault <<gently>_reproved_ my table manners>. [SIZE=-1]REBUKE[/SIZE] suggests a sharp or stern reproof <the papal="" letter="">_<rebuked></rebuked>_ dissenting clerics>. [SIZE=-1]REPRIMAND[/SIZE] implies a severe, formal, often public or official rebuke <_reprimanded_ by the ethics committee>. [SIZE=-1]ADMONISH[/SIZE] suggests earnest or friendly warning and counsel   <_admonished_ by my parents to control expenses>. [SIZE=-1]REPROACH[/SIZE] and [SIZE=-1]CHIDE[/SIZE] suggest displeasure or disappointment expressed in mild reproof or scolding <_reproached_ him for tardiness> <_chided_ by their mother for untidiness>.


</the></gently></it>





> Main Entry:    *<sup>1</sup>re·buke*
> Pronunciation:    <tt>ri-'byük</tt>
> Function:    _transitive verb_
> Inflected Form(s):    *re·buked*; *re·buk·ing*
> Etymology:    Middle English, from Anglo-French _rebucher, rebouker_ to blunt, check, reprimand
> *1 a* *:* to criticize sharply  *: [SIZE=-1]REPRIMAND[/SIZE]* *b* *:* to serve as a rebuke to
> *2* *:* to turn back or keep down  *: [SIZE=-1]CHECK[/SIZE]*
> *synonym* see [SIZE=-1]REPROVE[/SIZE]
> - *re·buk·er* _noun_                                                                                                       <!-- The Heathline Ads -->                                     <script type="text/javascript">                                         <!--                                             var healthlineSearchTerm = "rebuke";                                             var healthlineHost = 'www.healthline.com';                                         -->                                     </script>                                                             <script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.healthline.com/js/partner/mw/link.js"></script>





> Main Entry:    *ex·hort*
> Pronunciation:    <tt>ig-'zort</tt>
> Function:    _verb_
> Etymology:    Middle English, from Anglo-French _exorter,_ from Latin _exhortari,_ from _ex-_ + _hortari_ to incite  -- more at [SIZE=-1]YEARN[/SIZE]
> _transitive verb_ *:* to incite by argument or advice  *:* urge strongly   <_exhort__ing_ voters to do the right thing>
> _intransitive verb_ *:* to give warnings or advice  *:* make urgent appeals
> - *ex·hort·er* _noun_


----------



## tommyjones

2ndAmendment said:


> TJ (tommyjones),
> I don't hate anyone. If you knew me, you would know that. But I will not assume a politically correct stance on the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. It stands and I stand on it.
> 
> We are instructed to praise God in the Bible.We are to proclaim the Gospel in season and out, in other words, all the time to everyone.
> The words "reprove, rebuke, exhort" are not exactly passive are they?</the></gently></it>



word of men about their feelings on god.

I could say that god directed me to write this, doesn't make it so.....

and i've read your posts, you hate plenty


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*



Giantone said:


> Since you act like you know all ,what do you think Jesus would think about how you treated your family,


 Well I have repented of my wrong doing to the best of my abilities and I am open to do more in that regard if I find more to do.

My repentance is because Jesus said to repent or else I would still be lost and confused.

So I hope that Jesus aproves of my efforts to repent as I feel very grateful to Him for telling me to do that and making it posible that I could do it.

It is never too late, but the later one repents the harsher it is - told from experience.





			
				Giantone said:
			
		

> how you ran out on your son ,


 That does pain me and I wish there was some way to fix that.

He needed his father and I was not there. Pitiful indeed.





			
				Giantone said:
			
		

> or ran out when your ex dying of cancer asked for help with your own son and you refused to help,


 I did not do that. My ex was already married again and had another child and I her dying of cancer was a surprise to me. I heard she was sick but she was only 37 and I never expected her to die.

Our son was 17 at that time.

There was nothing I could have done for her anyway.





			
				Giantone said:
			
		

> or how you promote child neglect and abuse by telling parents not to pay child support???


 In my perspective we all have a religious and moral duty that over-rides the demands of society or of the gov, 

and that is especially true when the society standard is corrupt and the gov is unjust and morally destructive as they are in the child support system.

The children are not neglected nor abused by not receiving the child support and it is sinful to voluntarily pay a thief.

The population has a right to protect themselves from the thieving gov and I promote that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

tommyjones said:


> word of men about their feelings on god.
> 
> I could say that god directed me to write this, doesn't make it so.....
> 
> and i've read your posts, you hate plenty


So you don't believe the Bible? OK. I accept that. We have no common grounds of communication on God.

I love enough to tell the Truth and not peddle what people want to hear. Is it hate or love to tell someone they seem to be on the road to perdition? Is it love or hate to tell someone that it is OK to do anything they like because everyone goes to heaven?

I don't expect you to agree with me, because we do not have a common frame of reference.


----------



## tommyjones

2ndAmendment said:


> So you don't believe the Bible? OK. I accept that. We have no common grounds of communication on God.
> 
> I love enough to tell the Truth and not peddle what people want to hear. Is it hate or love to tell someone they seem to be on the road to perdition? Is it love or hate to tell someone that it is OK to do anything they like because everyone goes to heaven?
> 
> I don't expect you to agree with me, because we do not have a common frame of reference.



I believe in the bible, i just understand that it is not the word of god, but instead the words of people.


Just because you claim its the "truth" doesn't mean its not hateful.

discrimination, hate and judging are not christian values, too bad so many think htey are just following the word of god when they do these things


----------



## 2ndAmendment

tommyjones said:


> I believe in the bible, i just understand that it is not the word of god, but instead the words of people.
> 
> 
> Just because you claim its the "truth" doesn't mean its not hateful.
> 
> discrimination, hate and judging are not christian values, too bad so many think htey are just following the word of god when they do these things



You say you believe in the Bible but not as the word of God. It is just another book, so what would you know of Christian values when Christian values are defined in the Bible.

Discrimination and hate are in the Bible. In some instances as examples of what not to do. In some instances as what to do as in "hate sin," discern between good an evil. Judging of others is many fold. Christians are to act as judges in some instances where Christian and Christian are involved. Christians are warned not to judge non believers. Christians are also told that Christians will be the judges in the life to come. If you read the Bible, you would know these things.

So many say the Bible says this or that or talk of Christian values without the knowledge of actually having read the Bible.


----------



## tommyjones

2ndAmendment said:


> You say you believe in the Bible but not as the word of God. It is just another book, so what would you know of Christian values when Christian values are defined in the Bible.
> 
> Discrimination and hate are in the Bible. In some instances as examples of what not to do. In some instances as what to do as in "hate sin," discern between good an evil. Judging of others is many fold. Christians are to act as judges in some instances where Christian and Christian are involved. Christians are warned not to judge non believers. Christians are also told that Christians will be the judges in the life to come. If you read the Bible, you would know these things.
> 
> So many say the Bible says this or that or talk of Christian values without the knowledge of actually having read the Bible.




and some many try to use the bible to justify their hate.
keep it up and you WILL find yourself being judged, not doing the judging as you are now.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

tommyjones said:


> and some many try to use the bible to justify their hate.
> keep it up and *you WILL find yourself being judged*, not doing the judging as you are now.



Thanks for judging. 

Again, I don't hate anyone. I dislike some. I don't know you, but I don't find you and the way you post appealing. Your intellect seems like it might be lacking by the manner in which you post. That may not be the case, but it is my first impression of you.

Even though you don't know me, you obviously don't like me because you are attacking me. That is OK; I expect it from non believers. 

I tell people the Truth from the Bible. I believe the Bible. It is my source of absolute Truth. It defines what sin is. It instructs Christians on how to live and what to do. You say I hate by proclaiming the Truth from scripture. I say it is love. In some cases, hard love, but love just the same.

I pray you find salvation through Jesus and the Truth of God's word, and I bid you goodbye. Which by the way, through word history means God be with you.


----------



## tommyjones

2ndAmendment said:


> Thanks for judging.
> 
> Again, I don't hate anyone. I dislike some. I don't know you, but I don't find you and the way you post appealing. Your intellect seems like it might be lacking by the manner in which you post. That may not be the case, but it is my first impression of you.
> 
> Even though you don't know me, you obviously don't like me because you are attacking me. That is OK; I expect it from non believers.
> 
> I tell people the Truth from the Bible. I believe the Bible. It is my source of absolute Truth. It defines what sin is. It instructs Christians on how to live and what to do. You say I hate by proclaiming the Truth from scripture. I say it is love. In some cases, hard love, but love just the same.
> 
> I pray you find salvation through Jesus and the Truth of God's word, and I bid you goodbye. Which by the way, through word history means God be with you.



I say you hate becasue you are filled with hate and judgement, if you think thats the "truth" in the bible i urge you to read more closely.

your intellect is obviously lacking considering you can't think for yourself, try reading critically sometime, you just might find that you are not so in line with the spirit of the bible and christianity.

now back to your judging


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*

 We are to judge between right and wrong link HERE.

When Christ said not to judge he was only telling the guilty to stop it link HERE, the righteous want to be judged.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> We are to judge between right and wrong link HERE.
> 
> When Christ said not to judge he was only telling the guilty to stop it link HERE, the righteous want to be judged.


Who do you suppose he sees as guiltless of sin?  Do you think Jesus sees any human as having no sin, and there fore has no beam in his own eye?


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*



This_person said:


> Who do you suppose he sees as guiltless of sin?  Do you think Jesus sees any human as having no sin, and there fore has no beam in his own eye?


 Those that do as Christ said and repent and make ammends as in taking the beam out of our own eye and then the sin is gone.

Jesus gives absolution through repentance. 

Thus guiltless and innocent there-after.

When I judge others then I expect to be judged myself, and rightly so.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Those that do as Christ said and repent and make ammends as in taking the beam out of our own eye and then the sin is gone.
> 
> Jesus gives absolution through repentance.
> 
> Thus guiltless and innocent there-after.
> 
> When I judge others then I expect to be judged myself, and rightly so.



You got that right. Good. Now do you  see why not everyone gets saved? You said it yourself, "Jesus gives absolution through repentance." Not everyone will repent. The Bible says so.


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*



2ndAmendment said:


> You got that right. Good. Now do you  see why not everyone gets saved? You said it yourself, "Jesus gives absolution through repentance." Not everyone will repent. The Bible says so.


 People fail to repent in this world and that is why this world is messed up.

So very many people do not get saved now in this lifetime.

But on judgement Day then everyone will see and know and then all shall confess and everyone will get saved at that time.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> People fail to repent in this world and that is why this world is messed up.
> 
> So very many people do not get saved now in this lifetime.
> 
> But on judgement Day then everyone will see and know and then all shall confess and everyone will get saved at that time.



And that is where the modernism has led you astray. Once you are dead in this life, it is too late to repent. It is absolutely true that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus, the Christ, is Lord, but that is commanded and not an act of repentance because the time to repent is in this life. Judgment day is too late to repent.

I trust you will see your error. 

The Bible is the Truth.


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*



2ndAmendment said:


> And that is where the modernism has led you astray. Once you are dead in this life, it is too late to repent. It is absolutely true that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus, the Christ, is Lord, but that is commanded and not an act of repentance because the time to repent is in this life. Judgment day is too late to repent.


 2A is not quoting the Bible correctly and his interpretation is not what the Bible says link HERE.

It is not just 2A as it is the Orthodox Christianity too that are mis-judging others as being doomed and going to some fire in Hell but the Bible says Jesus is the savior both for the living and for the dead.

The truth remains that no one gets left out and everyone gets saved.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> ...
> 
> The truth remains that no one gets left out and everyone gets saved.



Well, I have to call that what it is, a lie straight from satan.

I trust that one day you will come to know the Truth and accept the Bible for what it is, the inerrant Word of God.


----------



## JPC sr

*Batman*



2ndAmendment said:


> Well, I have to call that what it is, a lie straight from satan.


 See 2A calls it a lie but I gave the text in a link for anyone to see and read it for ourselves and I gave a correct interpretation that actually matched the words of the text.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess - so everybody gets saved,  but 2A is saying not everyone as some are already burning in his mystical hell fire but mine matches the Bible verses.

The problem is that people like 2A are only preaching what the Orthodox have brain washed into him and he can not interpret the Bible verses with his own beliefs because then he too would become un-Orthodox.

We each and everyone needs to read the Bible for ourselves and make our own individual findings based on our own feelings and our own perception and stop having others telling us what we must believe.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> See 2A calls it a lie but I gave the text in a link for anyone to see and read it for ourselves and I gave a correct interpretation that actually matched the words of the text.
> 
> Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess - so everybody gets saved,  but 2A is saying not everyone as some are already burning in his mystical hell fire but mine matches the Bible verses.
> 
> The problem is that people like 2A are only preaching what the Orthodox have brain washed into him and he can not interpret the Bible verses with his own beliefs because then he too would become un-Orthodox.
> 
> We each and everyone needs to read the Bible for ourselves and make our own individual findings based on our own feelings and our own perception and stop having others telling us what we must believe.


I called what you posted what it is. Saying that everyone gets saved is a lie.

And JPC's problem is that he is looking for some out. It may be for someone who has died and was not a Christian. That would be sad but is the case for many. He is accepting modern myths and rejecting the Bible. He chooses to ignore the scripture with which he does not personally agree. He ignores:


> Matthew 7:13-14
> 
> 13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
> 
> 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


and 





> Matthew 7:21-23
> 
> 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
> 
> 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
> 
> 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


and 





> Revelation 20: 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


and 





> Revelation 21:8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


JPC has chosen the path that was describe in the Bible about many in the last days.





> 2 Timthy 3:2-7
> 
> 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
> 
> 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
> 
> 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
> 
> 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
> 
> 6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
> 
> 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


and 





> 2 Timothy 4:3-5
> 
> 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
> 
> 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.



He is right that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.





> Philippians 2:9-16
> 
> 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
> 
> 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
> 
> 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> 12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
> 
> 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
> 
> 14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
> 
> 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
> 
> 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.


JPC ignores verse 15 that delineates between those that believe and "a crooked and perverse generation." The crooked and perverse may kneel and bow and confess that Jesus is Lord, but it will be just before they are cast into the lake of fire.

I trust that someday, JPC will have the scales fall from his eyes.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



2ndAmendment said:


> I called what you posted what it is. Saying that everyone gets saved is a lie.


 Well I stand by my interpretations and my beliefs as mine are true and mine are correct.

2A and Orthodox Christianity can certainly believe all they choose to believe.

I have no real problem with them thinking they are the only chosen ones and that others like myself might cook in a Hell fire for all eternity.

For myself when I found out that there is no Hell (people on fire being tortured) then it was a great relief to me because I would never accept a situation like that nor would I accept a God like that.

So it works for me.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Well I stand by my interpretations and my beliefs as mine are true and mine are correct.


Are you sure you do?  Aren't you the same guy who stands so strongly behind his beliefs that you said: "I agree with this completely even though it does not agree entirely with my own religious beliefs," clearly explaining that you agree with stuff you don't agree with?





> For myself when I found out that there is no Hell (people on fire being tortured) then it was a great relief to me


With the life you've lead, you really need to believe this.  I understand.  You have no concept of what repentance really means, so you choose to believe that you'll be forgiven even though you haven't changed your ways or really seen the light with your sins.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> Well I stand by my interpretations and my beliefs as mine are true and mine are correct.
> 
> 2A and Orthodox Christianity can certainly believe all they choose to believe.
> 
> I have no real problem with them thinking they are the only chosen ones and that others like myself might cook in a Hell fire for all eternity.
> 
> For myself when I found out that there is no Hell (people on fire being tortured) then it was a great relief to me because I would never accept a situation like that nor would I accept a God like that.
> 
> So it works for me.



Revelation
Chapter 20
1 
1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss 2 and a heavy chain. 
2 
He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, 3 and tied it up for a thousand years 
3 
and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time. 
4 
Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark 4 on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 
5 
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. 
6 
Blessed 5 and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years. 
7 
6 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. 
8 
He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, 7 to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 
9 
They invaded the breadth of the earth 8 and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 
10 
The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 
11 
9 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. 
12 
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. 10 The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. 
13 
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. 
*14 
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death. 12 ) 
15 
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. *


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



This_person said:


> Are you sure you do?  Aren't you the same guy who stands so strongly behind his beliefs that you said: "I agree with this completely even though it does not agree entirely with my own religious beliefs," clearly explaining that you agree with stuff you don't agree with?


 There is no contradiction there as I was refering to the poster trying to figure out the Bible and he did it very well indeed.

But his conclusions are his own and I fully agree with that. 

With me then no one has got to agree with me to still be honest and true.

My personal relationship with God is not dependant on any other person(s) and I respect the personal beliefs of others.





			
				This_person said:
			
		

> You have no concept of what repentance really means, so you choose to believe that you'll be forgiven even though you haven't changed your ways or really seen the light with your sins.


 I have often referenced and explained "repentance" as I still believe it was the bottom line - true message that Christ brought in His birth and His resurection.

Salvation through repentance, link HERE.

Of course I see this poster only complained at my lacking yet gave no definition of his own like it must be another of those mysterious Christianily secrets - I say not.

To repent one must make ammends for the wrongs committed. 

It is very simple to understand but takes humility to perform.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> Revelation
> Chapter 20, [ link HERE. ]
> 
> *14
> Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death. 12 )
> 15
> Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. *


 It says "death" would be thrown in and not living people, so death could mean dead people but not living souls,

and it says "hades" (Hell) would be thrown in but again not living people or souls in fire torment torture.

Link to "Hades" HERE.

We must read and believe what it says and not what others like the Orthodox tell us it says.

It does not matter after death what you or anyone does here on earth, because God already forgave us all and Jesus paid the punishment in full and our Loving Father in Heaven does not torture and burn people in the mystical deception called Hell.

If we sin now then we pay for it now, we reap what we sow, but Judgement Day is to be a wonderful event for everyone. 

So it pays to do the right stuff now because we live hard from doing wrong  link HERE.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> It says "death" would be thrown in and not living people, so death could mean dead people but not living souls,
> 
> and it says "hades" (Hell) would be thrown in but again not living people or souls in fire torment torture.
> 
> Link to "Hades" HERE.
> 
> We must read and believe what it says and not what others like the Orthodox tell us it says.
> 
> It does not matter after death what you or anyone does here on earth, because God already forgave us all and Jesus paid the punishment in full and our Loving Father in Heaven does not torture and burn people in the mystical deception called Hell.
> 
> If we sin now then we pay for it now, we reap what we sow, but Judgement Day is to be a wonderful event for everyone.
> 
> So it pays to do the right stuff now because we live hard from doing wrong  link HERE.



If you believe the Bible, you MUST believe in hell.


----------



## camily

Matthew 25
31 
14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 
32 
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 
33 
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 
34 
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 
35 
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 
36 
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 
37 
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 
38 
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 
39 
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 
40 
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 
41 
*17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.* 
42 
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 
43 
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 
44 
18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 
45 
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 
46 
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> If you believe the Bible, you MUST believe in hell.


 The difference is in how one interpret the words.

In the Bible "Hell" means the grave like dead people are buried in a cave or in the ground and that is the hell of the Bible.

So I do believe in hell but it is just the place to put dead bodies in a grave.

That false "Hell" of fire and torment is a man made concept to frighten and to control the sheep.

Plus the concept of "hell" directly defies the clear message that Christ paid the penalty for sin in full.

The command is to "love thy enemies" link HERE and God does not break His own commands.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> There is no contradiction there


When you say you agree with something, and then say you don't agree with it, that's sort of the definition of a contradiction.  English - learn it, live it.





> With me then no one has got to agree with me to still be honest and true.


You're close.  With you, no one CAN agree with you (overall) and still be honest and true.





> I have often referenced and explained "repentance"


Yes, you have.  But, you still don't understand it.





> To repent one must make ammends for the wrongs committed.  It is very simple to understand but takes humility to perform.


It is very easy to understand.  However, given your statements on your "family" (or, rather, your ex-spouse and her husband's family), you have not made ammends for your wrongs - you defend them and preach for others to act as you did.  You not only have no humility, you claim to be the only one worldwide who understands what the Bible really means, and what the morality of parenting one must act with.  Everyone else is wrong, and you feel obligated to correct the rest of the world.  That's not humility, that's unfounded arrogance.  That's not repentance, that's excuses.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> Matthew 25 [ link HERE ]
> 
> *17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.*
> 
> 46
> And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


 The "eternal fire" is saying the works (sins) will be burned and destroyed but not the person link HERE.

It is to hate the sin but do not hate the sinner.

We all are children of God and we all will be saved by our Creator. 

God is love and He even loves His enemies, and He does not torture and burn people.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



This_person said:


> That's not humility, that's unfounded arrogance.


 It seems that I have always admired "arrogance" and even here I see it more as a virtue than not.

Perhaps I would say that it does take humility in repentance and I am all for that,

but later when confronted by the self righteous like the above poster then humility steps aside for the arrogance that the poster inspires.

So it goes like this:

1) Humility for repentance.

2) Arrogance against the self righteous.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> So it goes like this:
> 
> 1) Humility for repentance.
> 
> 2) Arrogance against the self righteous.


You've got #2 down (at least the arrogance part), but you haven't touched number 1 yet


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Jpc,
You are preaching a lie.

May God remove the scales from your eyes.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



2ndAmendment said:


> Jpc,
> You are preaching a lie.
> 
> May God remove the scales from your eyes.


 Well you might believe that but do notice that I put links to the Bible text to back up what I say,

and my interpretations match with the words in the text.

The Bible is like a big puzzle and we just have to put the pieces together.

Like I preach that it is God's will that everyone gets saved link HERE.

So everyone (all people) do get saved because it is the will of God.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Well you might believe that but do notice that I put links to the Bible text to back up what I say,
> 
> and my interpretations match with the words in the text.
> 
> The Bible is like a big puzzle and we just have to put the pieces together.
> 
> Like I preach that it is God's will that everyone gets saved link HERE.
> 
> So everyone (all people) do get saved because it is the will of God.



You can link all you  want. I post the actual scripture, and you ignore it. Your interpretation of what you link to is out of context and therefor not correct. Everything in the Bible must be taken in light of every other thing in the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself. 

Of course God loves all His creatures. He wants everyone to repent and come to Him and that none should perish. Here is the entire chapter that contains the verse you linked to.


> 2 Peter 3
> 
> 1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
> 
> 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
> 
> 3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
> 
> 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
> 
> 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
> 
> 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
> 
> *7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men*.
> 
> 8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
> 
> 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
> 
> * 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.*
> 
> 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
> 
> 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
> 
> 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
> 
> 14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
> 
> 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
> 
> * 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
> 
> 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.*
> 
> 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


But sine you take the verse out of context you miss that Peter was writing to believers and explaining why Jesus had not returned yet. You miss the context of verses 7, 10, 16 & 17 which clearly delineate between those that are believers and those that are unable to learn from what has been preached to them and the destruction in fire that waits those that are ungodly and wicked. The wicked and ungodly, those that have not received Jesus as Savior and live accordingly to their salvation are not saved.

It is true that at judgment, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. But notice that the scripture you take out of context does not say that every tongue will claim Jesus as Savior. There is a difference. After a person dies or if they have not accepted Jesus before the time of judgment, it is too late to accept Jesus as Savior.

Everyone is not saved and saying so is lying and you are responsible for posting that lie. 

I trust that the scales will fall from your spiritual eyes for in many ways, you are truly blind.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



2ndAmendment said:


> You can link all you  want. I post the actual scripture, and you ignore it. Your interpretation of what you link to is out of context and therefor not correct. Everything in the Bible must be taken in light of every other thing in the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself.
> 
> Of course God loves all His creatures. He wants everyone to repent and come to Him and that none should perish. Here is the entire chapter that contains the verse you linked to.
> 
> But sine you take the verse out of context you miss that Peter was writing to believers and explaining why Jesus had not returned yet. You miss the context of verses 7, 10, 16 & 17 which clearly delineate between those that are believers and those that are unable to learn from what has been preached to them and the destruction in fire that waits those that are ungodly and wicked. The wicked and ungodly, those that have not received Jesus as Savior and live accordingly to their salvation are not saved.
> 
> It is true that at judgment, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. But notice that the scripture you take out of context does not say that every tongue will claim Jesus as Savior. There is a difference. After a person dies or if they have not accepted Jesus before the time of judgment, it is too late to accept Jesus as Savior.
> 
> Everyone is not saved and saying so is lying and you are responsible for posting that lie.
> 
> I trust that the scales will fall from your spiritual eyes for in many ways, you are truly blind.


 It is okay by me if 2A wants to believe that way and not me.

I stand by my beliefs and my interpretation and not his.

It even seems to me that maybe God likes some persons to believe in the Hell fire because one like 2A might otherwise go with his cross in one hand and automatic weapon in his other hand to force his Orthodoxy onto the rest of us if he was not afraid of his burning God.

So it is fine by me that he believes differently than my religious beliefs so long as he remains harmless.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> I stand by my beliefs and my interpretation and not his.
> 
> It even seems to me that maybe God likes some persons to believe in the Hell fire because one like 2A might otherwise go with his cross in one hand and automatic weapon in his other hand to force his Orthodoxy onto the rest of us if he was not afraid of his burning God.



 What do you think Gog thinks about people who abuse and neglect there own children??? LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



Giantone said:


> What do you think God thinks about people who abuse and neglect there own children??? LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 I believe that God always provides the one thing (or more) that each child needs in their given situations.

Even the horribly abused children are never entirely overlooked by our Creator.

Those children and others might not agree but I find some mark of God being there even in the worse of cases.

Not everybody can see it - but the sign of God is always there in each and every case.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> It is okay by me if 2A wants to believe that way and not me.
> 
> I stand by my beliefs and my interpretation and not his.
> 
> It even seems to me that maybe God likes some persons to believe in the Hell fire because one like 2A might otherwise go with his cross in one hand and automatic weapon in his other hand to force his Orthodoxy onto the rest of us if he was not afraid of his burning God.
> 
> So it is fine by me that he believes differently than my religious beliefs so long as he remains harmless.



Now who is denigrating who? And you are liable and I could file charges against you for you have publicly accused me of a criminal act. Having an automatic weapon without the necessary license to have an automatic weapon is a crime. I have no automatic weapons. I wish I did, but I don't.

Your interpretation is wrong. Period. 

It has to do with God giving us His word to learn from and live by. It is only people like you that think the Bible is wrong "in places" that ignore that God is fully God and can keep and has kept His Word as the Truth.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



2ndAmendment said:


> Your interpretation is wrong. Period.


I find it okay that 2A and I do not agree on some things even if we agree with each other on other things.

My interpretation is my interpretation and I am happy with mine as that is what a personal relationship with God and Jesus is all about - "personal" / one person with their God.

It just seemed to me that this thread needed me to preach the truth to set the religious questions right in case anyone viewing this thread might want to get it right instead of beating the Orthodox drum.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> I find it okay that 2A and I do not agree on some things even if we agree with each other on other things.
> 
> My interpretation is my interpretation and I am happy with mine as that is what a personal relationship with *God and Jesus* is all about - "personal" / one person with their God.
> 
> It just seemed to me that this thread needed me to preach the truth to set the religious questions right in case anyone viewing this thread might want to get it right instead of beating the Orthodox drum.



God and Jesus are one in the same.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> God and Jesus are one in the same.


 I know that many people claim that but the Bible and Jesus does not really teach that.

Jesus said He and the Father are one but not the same.

The two agree as one and they act as one but are completely separate.

Jesus prayed to the Father in Heaven and did not pray to Himself there on earth.

Claiming God is some mystical creature with three persons crammed into one unit would mean that God were some kind of freak and we people would not be his children.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> I know that many people claim that but the Bible and Jesus does not really teach that.
> 
> Jesus said He and the Father are one but not the same.
> 
> The two agree as one and they act as one but are completely separate.
> 
> Jesus prayed to the Father in Heaven and did not pray to Himself there on earth.
> 
> Claiming God is some mystical creature with three persons crammed into one unit would mean that God were some kind of freak and we people would not be his children.


We were created in his image, not with all of his knowledges, strengths, and abilities.  The one ability we're sorely lacking is the ability to understand on a physical level how the Trinity are one.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



This_person said:


> We were created in his image, not with all of his knowledges, strengths, and abilities.  The one ability we're sorely lacking is the ability to understand on a physical level how the Trinity are one.


 Says you and Orthodoxy,

but I say that it is easy for all of us to understand how God is our Father in Heaven and that Jesus is His son and we all are children of God and the spirit of God is God's power and not some mystical third person.

That mis-claim that people lack the ability to understand the "trinity" or any aspect of God is not true and it belittles human beings and in fact we all have the full capable ability to understand everything about God if each one  will personally seek it out.

We do not have to stay ignorant of the scripture truths because the children of God have the right and the power to know everything.


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> Says you and Orthodoxy,


and Genesis


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



This_person said:


> and Genesis


That link says that God's image is both male and female,

so what does that have to do with the previous postings?


----------



## This_person

JPC sr said:


> That link says that God's image is both male and female,
> 
> so what does that have to do with the previous postings?


that link says God created man in His image, that He created both male and female.  It does NOT say that God's image is both male and female.

You're proven my point, again, that you cannot comprehend what you read.  Please, take a class.


----------



## Xaquin44

heh.  there are 21 different versions of the Bible in english there.  Thats kind of funny.


----------



## This_person

Xaquin44 said:


> heh.  there are 21 different Bibles in english there.  Thats kind of funny.


You should see how many different variations there are on the meaninglessness of life science gives us!  It's freakin' hilarious.


----------



## Xaquin44

This_person said:


> You should see how many different variations there are on the meaninglessness of life science gives us!  It's freakin' hilarious.



well that is the very nature of science.

I've often heard the Bible refered to as the one truth.

not trying to start something, I just wasn't expecting it when I hit the link, and it made me chuckle a bit.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



Xaquin44 said:


> heh.  there are 21 different versions of the Bible in english there.  Thats kind of funny.


 I had not thought of that either that claiming the Bible is some absolute infalible word of God and then every english version is different and the Bible was not an english language book in the first place.

The word "Hell" was an old english word that meant "grave" but the original language does not even have the word "hell" at all.

The Bible was not written in english, is not that a pitiful situation?

The Orthodox have made an idol out of the english version of the Bible.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> I know that many people claim that but the Bible and Jesus does not really teach that.
> 
> Jesus said He and the Father are one but not the same.
> 
> The two agree as one and they act as one but are completely separate.
> 
> Jesus prayed to the Father in Heaven and did not pray to Himself there on earth.
> 
> Claiming God is some mystical creature with three persons crammed into one unit would mean that God were some kind of freak and we people would not be his children.



The Holy Spirit is what you feel when moved to repent, accept Christ, etc. Jesus is how you become saved. By accepting he is God's son. Remember, Jesus sits at the right hand. He _is_ the right hand.
God is the creator. 
This is very difficlt to explain to some people. For me it is VERY simple.
Jesus Christ is God


----------



## dustin

JPC sr said:


> blah blah blah



I forgive you JPC.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I find it okay that 2A and I do not agree on some things even if we agree with each other on other things.
> 
> My interpretation is my interpretation and I am happy with mine as that is what a personal relationship with God and Jesus is all about - "personal" / one person with their God.
> 
> It just seemed to me that this thread needed me to preach the truth to set the religious questions right in case anyone viewing this thread might want to get it right instead of beating the Orthodox drum.



But you are misleading people with a most grievous lie. Those that are not believers and have not accepted Jesus may believe your misinterpretation and be lost because of your posts.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> Says you and Orthodoxy,
> 
> but I say that it is easy for all of us to understand how God is our Father in Heaven and that Jesus is His son and we all are children of God and the spirit of God is God's power and not some mystical third person.
> 
> That mis-claim that people lack the ability to understand the "trinity" or any aspect of God is not true and it belittles human beings and in fact we all have the full capable ability to understand everything about God if each one  will personally seek it out.
> 
> We do not have to stay ignorant of the scripture truths because the children of God have the right and the power to know everything.



You are confused again.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

JPC sr said:


> I had not thought of that either that claiming the Bible is some absolute infalible word of God and then every english version is different and the Bible was not an english language book in the first place.
> 
> The word "Hell" was an old english word that meant "grave" but the original language does not even have the word "hell" at all.
> 
> The Bible was not written in english, is not that a pitiful situation?
> 
> The Orthodox have made an idol out of the english version of the Bible.



You, again, have it wrong.

As for there being 21 English versions, so what? Pick two or three at random and read them side by side and you will see that the meaning is the same even if the phrasing is slightly different.

The original manuscripts were written in Hebrew-Aramaic and Ancient Greek. Take some text in a modern language like Japanese and have several people that are fluent in Japanese and English translate it. You will get slight variations in the actual text but the meaning will be maintained.

Words are only groupings of symbols to convey ideas. The ideas are what are important. The various English Bibles maintain the consistency of the ideas conveyed. It is those ideas that are the One Truth.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> I had not thought of that




 Someone call CNN.....................


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> The Holy Spirit is what you feel when moved to repent, accept Christ, etc. Jesus is how you become saved. By accepting he is God's son. Remember, Jesus sits at the right hand. He _is_ the right hand.
> God is the creator.
> This is very difficlt to explain to some people. For me it is VERY simple.
> Jesus Christ is God


 I simply loved every word she said except for that link.

It is not a link to a Bible text but to some other person / group and so it does not reflect her personal relationship with God or with Jesus but only to that stuff on that Orthodox link.

Why does not "Camily" believe what Jesus in the Bible says that the Father was in Heaven while Jesus was down here on earth as a completely separate being? link HERE.

Therefore she has great faith without correct knowledge.

It is okay in that she will be saved but in this world now she will have confusions.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> I simply loved every word she said except for that link.
> 
> It is not a link to a Bible text but to some other person / group and so it does not reflect her personal relationship with God or with Jesus but only to that stuff on that Orthodox link.
> 
> Why does not "Camily" believe what Jesus in the Bible says that the Father was in Heaven while Jesus was down here on earth as a completely separate being? link HERE.
> 
> Therefore she has great faith without correct knowledge.
> 
> It is okay in that she will be saved but in this world now she will have confusions.



John 1 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



*John 1
The Word Became Flesh 
 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. *
 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. 

 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.* 

 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 

 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

 15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Paul writes, "Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: 'He catches the wise in their craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 

 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 

 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity*


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> John 1 (New International Version)
> New International Version (NIV)
> Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
> 
> 
> 
> *John 1
> The Word Became Flesh
> 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. *
> 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
> 
> 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.*
> 
> 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
> 
> 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
> 
> 15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known
> 
> 1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Paul writes, "Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: 'He catches the wise in their craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.
> 
> Matthew 7
> 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
> 
> 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
> 
> 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity*


* Well this is great,

and now me and Camily are in complete agreement.

Well done, and you rock girl.*


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> Well this is great,
> 
> and now me and Camily are in complete agreement.
> 
> Well done, and you rock girl.



 
God have mercy on your soul. We are not in agreement.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferrari*



camily said:


> God have mercy on your soul. We are not in agreement.


 It does not mean that we are in a total absolute agreement with each other.

It is not an all or nothing equation.

Just that I totally agree with your above post # 346  link HERE 

therefore - in that there we are in agreement.

That does not mean that you have made it to the dark side of enlightenment but we do agree in that one post.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> It does not mean that we are in a total absolute agreement with each other.
> 
> It is not an all or nothing equation.
> 
> Just that I totally agree with your above post # 346  link HERE
> 
> therefore - in that there we are in agreement.
> 
> That does not mean that you have made it to* the dark side of enlightenment* but we do agree in that one post.



oxyMORON.











Or should I say maroon?


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferarri*



			
				JPC sr said:
			
		

> ... *the dark side of enlightenment* ...





camily said:


> oxyMORON.
> 
> Or should I say maroon?


 I am so very pleased that you catch me on such a thing.

It does look like an oxymoron because it is refering to a spiritual concept and not really physical "darkness" and "lighting" as it appears.

My best understanding of this concept came from the Hindu scripture called the Bhagavad-Gita link HERE.

It goes like this;

The true light of God is darkness to those that do wrong,

but for the rightful person that darkness is as the light of day.

So what is enlightenment is darkness to the sinners.

Therefore the darkest side of enlightenment is closest to God and away from  this decieved world of ours.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> I am so very pleased that you catch me on such a thing.
> 
> It does look like an oxymoron because it is refering to a spiritual concept and not really physical "darkness" and "lighting" as it appears.
> 
> My best understanding of this concept came from the Hindu scripture called the Bhagavad-Gita link HERE.
> 
> It goes like this;
> 
> The true light of God is darkness to those that do wrong,
> 
> but for the rightful person that darkness is as the light of day.
> 
> So what is enlightenment is darkness to the sinners.
> 
> Therefore the darkest side of enlightenment is closest to God and away from  this decieved world of ours.



My head hurts.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferarri*



camily said:


> My head hurts.


 That was my point before,

that when you or anyone just believes as told and do not think for one-self then ye live in confusion and pain. 

Fortunately we all do get saved in the end.


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> That was my point before,
> 
> that when you or anyone just believes as told and do not think for one-self then ye live in confusion and pain.
> 
> Fortunately we all do get saved in the end.



We do not all get saved. What makes you think that? Seriously.


----------



## This_person

camily said:


> We do not all get saved. What makes you think that? Seriously.


He reads one sentence out of context, misinterprets it, and it becomes law in his head.  All attempts to shake it with truth, reason, logic, or emotion will fail.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferarri*



camily said:


> We do not all get saved. What makes you think that? Seriously.


 We all get saved because God loves all people (excluding none) and Jesus paid the death penalty for all people (none left out) and so we all people everywhere have already been forgiven and all get saved in the end.

Not even one nasty rotten sinfilled person gets left behind or left out or sent to fire in Hell (not even one) because God and Jesus even love their worst of enemies, link HERE.  

All people could become "perfect" but few even try, but on Judgement Day it will improve big time.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferarri*



Nucklesack said:


> Seriously Camily, do you think your going to get any kind of answer, that resembles in the slightest bit, anything that could be confused with common sense *¿*


 This guy gives no answer while he does not even read mine,

and he wants the lady to follow him into hiding.

The blind leading the blind link HERE, unless she is smart enough to see.


----------



## Giantone

JPC sr said:


> That was my point before,
> 
> that when you or anyone just believes as told and do not think for one-self then ye live in confusion and pain.
> 
> Fortunately we all do get saved in the end.




This explains your life in a nutshell,and shut up!


----------



## camily

JPC sr said:


> I know that many people claim that but the Bible and Jesus does not really teach that.
> 
> Jesus said He and the Father are one but not the same.
> 
> The two agree as one and they act as one but are completely separate.
> 
> Jesus prayed to the Father in Heaven and did not pray to Himself there on earth.
> 
> Claiming God is some mystical creature with three persons crammed into one unit would mean that God were some kind of freak and we people would not be his children.



I hate to  but I was thinking about this thread this morning at about 5:00 AM. I was talking with my mom about it and she said it this way......
 You are at the same time a wife, mother and daughter. 
Is it difficult or impossible for you to be all three at once?
Of course it's not. It's just who I am and what I am.
All three at the same time. I am not less of a mother when I am with my mother as her daughter.
Not less of a daughter when I am with my husband as a wife, and so on.
When I can't be with my children physically, I may tell them to think of me and it will make them feel better (yes, I know this is VERY simplistic). That is something I use to comunicate with them from inside their heart. 
Does that make sense? I am all three at once, not separate.


----------



## JPC sr

*Mr. Ferarri*



camily said:


> I hate to  but I was thinking about this thread this morning at about 5:00 AM. I was talking with my mom about it and she said it this way......
> You are at the same time a wife, mother and daughter.
> Is it difficult or impossible for you to be all three at once?
> Of course it's not. It's just who I am and what I am.
> All three at the same time. I am not less of a mother when I am with my mother as her daughter.
> Not less of a daughter when I am with my husband as a wife, and so on.
> When I can't be with my children physically, I may tell them to think of me and it will make them feel better (yes, I know this is VERY simplistic). That is something I use to comunicate with them from inside their heart.
> Does that make sense? I am all three at once, not separate.


 I like that.

Very nice and very well put.

My compliments to your mon.


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## camily

JPC sr said:


> I like that.
> 
> Very nice and very well put.
> 
> My compliments to your mon.



Thanks. Glad it came out the way I was hoping it would.


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