# Handgun background checks...



## Larry Gude

...place up here says the 7 day waiting period is now up to...


...8 weeks.


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## StadEMS3

Sadness, I think once you pass the first check you should be good for x amount of years and give you a card/permit. Glad when I bought last Oct it was only 5 days. :shrug:

 I was thinking about an AR-15 before the nanny MD state laws kick in but wow the prices are crazy!


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## sockgirl77

Larry Gude said:


> ...place up here says the 7 day waiting period is now up to...
> 
> 
> ...8 weeks.



30-45 days is what MSP is saying. I called to check on mine last Friday (March 29) and they were processing applications that were received on February 15. Two days prior to that call the FFL was told that they were on February 8 applications.


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## Tomcat

Purchased my latest weapon Feb 9th got called to come pick it up April 2.


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## sockgirl77

Tomcat said:


> Purchased my latest weapon Feb 9th got called to come pick it up April 2.



Damn.


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## Tilted

Larry Gude said:


> ...place up here says the 7 day waiting period is now up to...
> 
> 
> ...8 weeks.



The floor leader for SB281 (i.e. a supporter of the bill) acknowledged during debate the other day that the MSP indicate applications are now taking about 55 days. She seemed to think they thought it was starting to come down though.


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## Tilted

Oh... and I believe they rejected an amendment to SB281 that would have allowed people that began the process of buying a handgun before October 1st to finish the purchase after October 1st without the license that would then be required. Someone please correct me on that if I'm wrong.


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## Larry Gude

Tilted said:


> The floor leader for SB281 (i.e. a supporter of the bill) acknowledged during debate the other day that the MSP indicate applications are now taking about 55 days. She seemed to think they thought it was starting to come down though.



True, true. 55 days is less than 8 weeks. 

Now, imagine how it's gonna be once the licensing and training and all that other crap that NONE of the infrastructure even exists for, starts. As it is now, cops statewide have to go through a lot just to do their quals.


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## Larry Gude

Tilted said:


> Oh... and I believe they rejected an amendment to SB281 that would have allowed people that began the process of buying a handgun before October 1st to finish the purchase after October 1st without the license that would then be required. Someone please correct me on that if I'm wrong.



I thought I read that if you'd did the purchase transaction before then, you were good??? If not, a terribly stupid bill is only worse and worse and worse.


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## DEEKAYPEE8569

Larry Gude said:


> True, true. *55 days is less than 8 weeks*.
> 
> Now, imagine how it's gonna be once the licensing and training and all that other crap that NONE of the infrastructure even exists for, starts. As it is now, cops statewide have to go through a lot just to do their quals.



Sounds like an engineered technicality, don't it?


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## sockgirl77

Larry Gude said:


> True, true. 55 days is less than 8 weeks.


Yes, by a whole day.


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## Tilted

Larry Gude said:


> I thought I read that if you'd did the purchase transaction before then, you were good??? If not, a terribly stupid bill is only worse and worse and worse.



As far as buying an assault long gun or a copycat weapon goes, yes, you're good so long as you ordered it or completed the application before October 1st. Here's the latest adopted amendment regarding that.

When it comes to buying handguns, however, they rejected a similar amendment (here) which would have allowed dealers to sell you a handgun, and you to receive a handgun, without the license if you had ordered it before October 1st.

Delegate Dumais (the floor leader for the bill in the House) justified rejecting the latter amendment even though the former one was adopted because, as regards the assault long guns, people would no longer be able to buy them after October 1st whereas people would still be able to buy handguns. They would just need the license to do so.

As I've indicated, I'm still waiting to see an updated version of the bill reflecting all of the amendments made in the House. But, the best I can tell from piecing together those amendments with the text as it was passed by the Senate, there is no such saving provision for people that have already ordered a handgun (but not yet taken possession of it) before the licensing requirement goes into effect.


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## Tomcat

What if said hand gun's magazine holds more than 10 rounds? Wouldn't that be banned after the 1st?


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## itsbob

StadEMS3 said:


> Sadness, I think once you pass the first check you should be good for x amount of years and give you a card/permit. Glad when I bought last Oct it was only 5 days. :shrug:
> 
> I was thinking about an AR-15 before the nanny MD state laws kick in but wow the prices are crazy!



Some places online still have reasonable prices.

Outside of MD the panic is starting to wane, prices are coming down, and availability is going up.

You can find almost any make AR now, a LITTLE over past retail but not by much.


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## itsbob

Tomcat said:


> What if said hand gun's magazine holds more than 10 rounds? Wouldn't that be banned after the 1st?



Not if you own it by the first


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## itsbob

So leaning towards the SIG RM400 E OR the Bushmaster CAR15...

Harder towards the SIG.. 

Thoughts??

AND my thinking is handgun or rifle.. RIfle is much easier to shoot well in the least amount of time.  AR models are some of the easiest guns to shoot, and learn to shoot accurately.

Handguns are light and compact, but harder to handle/control and little scary for first time users.  Much more time needed to develop the skills to be accurate consistently.. and would need a small(er) caliber for ease of use.

So definitely leaning towards an AR, but which one?


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## BadGirl

itsbob said:


> So leaning towards the SIG RM400 E OR the Bushmaster CAR15...
> 
> Harder towards the SIG..
> 
> Thoughts??
> 
> AND my thinking is handgun or rifle.. RIfle is much easier to shoot well in the least amount of time.  AR models are some of the easiest guns to shoot, and learn to shoot accurately.
> 
> Handguns are light and compact, but harder to handle/control and little scary for first time users.  Much more time needed to develop the skills to be accurate consistently.. and would need a small(er) caliber for ease of use.
> 
> So definitely leaning towards an AR, but which one?


Depends on what you're looking to do with it, I suppose.

Are you looking to kill me with it, or just shoot me so that I fall to the ground, barely injured?


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## Tilted

Tomcat said:


> What if said hand gun's magazine holds more than 10 rounds? Wouldn't that be banned after the 1st?



I would think so, at least the standard magazine that comes with the handgun. You'd still be able to buy or sell the handgun itself.

I had thought someone had introduced an amendment to deal with that issue, but I have found no such amendment - at least, not one that passed. That leaves an interesting situation. I doubt the law would be interpreted to permit the sale or transfer of those magazines along with the sale or transfer of those handguns. So what do dealers do? Not sell those handgun models, of which there are many? Will some handgun manufacturers produce and include special limited-capacity magazines for Maryland sales? Will dealers get third party limited-capacity magazines and include them with the sale of those models? Or the customer will have to buy those magazines separately? Perhaps I've missed a saving provision somewhere in the bill that deals with this issue, but I kind of doubt that.


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## Inkd

Tilted said:


> As far as buying an assault long gun or a copycat weapon goes, yes, you're good so long as you ordered it or completed the application before October 1st. Here's the latest adopted amendment regarding that.
> 
> When it comes to buying handguns, however, they rejected a similar amendment (here) which would have allowed dealers to sell you a handgun, and you to receive a handgun, without the license if you had ordered it before October 1st.
> 
> Delegate Dumais (the floor leader for the bill in the House) justified rejecting the latter amendment even though the former one was adopted because, as regards the assault long guns, people would no longer be able to buy them after October 1st whereas people would still be able to buy handguns. They would just need the license to do so.
> 
> As I've indicated, I'm still waiting to see an updated version of the bill reflecting all of the amendments made in the House. But, the best I can tell from piecing together those amendments with the text as it was passed by the Senate, there is no such saving provision for people that have already ordered a handgun (but not yet taken possession of it) before the licensing requirement goes into effect.




Great, if I'm still in this F'd up state by the time my Nighthawk Custom pistol is ready for delivery, I will have to go through the idiotic licensing process.


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> ...place up here says the 7 day waiting period is now up to...
> 
> 
> ...8 weeks.



Not gonna work for me. I would have comletely forgotten I applied by that time.


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## bulldog

Tilted said:


> I would think so, at least the standard magazine that comes with the handgun. You'd still be able to buy or sell the handgun itself.
> 
> I had thought someone had introduced an amendment to deal with that issue, but I have found no such amendment - at least, not one that passed. That leaves an interesting situation. I doubt the law would be interpreted to permit the sale or transfer of those magazines along with the sale or transfer of those handguns. So what do dealers do? Not sell those handgun models, of which there are many? Will some handgun manufacturers produce and include special limited-capacity magazines for Maryland sales? Will dealers get third party limited-capacity magazines and include them with the sale of those models? Or the customer will have to buy those magazines separately? Perhaps I've missed a saving provision somewhere in the bill that deals with this issue, but I kind of doubt that.



My understanding, as of now at least, is that the dealers will still be able to order any gun that has a higher mag capacity, but they won't be able to give you the original mag. Whether they replace it with one that is legal is up to them, I guess.
For instance, when I bought my AR, it came with a standard, 30 round mag. However, it was not legal for the dealer to give me that mag so he replaced it with a POS 20 round mag. He (as the dealer) got to keep the 30 round mag that came with my gun. :-(  I have, of course, purchased a few 30 rounders since that time.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Not gonna work for me. I would have comletely forgotten I applied by that time.



Forgot what?


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## Tilted

bulldog said:


> My understanding, as of now at least, is that the dealers will still be able to order any gun that has a higher mag capacity, but they won't be able to give you the original mag. Whether they replace it with one that is legal is up to them, I guess.
> For instance, when I bought my AR, it came with a standard, 30 round mag. However, it was not legal for the dealer to give me that mag so he replaced it with a POS 20 round mag. He (as the dealer) got to keep the 30 round mag that came with my gun. :-(  I have, of course, purchased a few 30 rounders since that time.



That would be my understanding as well.


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## sockgirl77

sockgirl77 said:


> 30-45 days is what MSP is saying. I called to check on mine last Friday (March 29) and they were processing applications that were received on February 15. Two days prior to that call the FFL was told that they were on February 8 applications.



Now MSP is saying that they are processing February 11 applications. The officer says that the answer will vary depending on who answer the phones. WTF???


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## sockgirl77

sockgirl77 said:


> Now MSP is saying that they are processing February 11 applications. The officer says that the answer will vary depending on who answer the phones. WTF???



FFL says that MSP is telling them they're on 2/11-2/13. I want to cry.


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## Gilligan

Guess I can expect mine to take at least two months from today then. Oh well...I'm not in any hurry; it was a "better go ahead and get it now, if not ever" purchase.


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## sockgirl77

Gilligan said:


> Guess I can expect mine to take at least two months from today then. Oh well...I'm not in any hurry; it was a "better go ahead and get it now, if not ever" purchase.



Well, I'm hearing that people are picking up their guns from 2/26 so I have no clue. I'm just irritated because I keep getting told different dates. I have no choice but to just sit here and wait.


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## Midnightrider

so i either have a couple of days or a couple of weeks until i get my paperwork back, then the 30 day wait starts!!!


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## Gilligan

sockgirl77 said:


> Well, I'm hearing that people are picking up their guns from 2/26 so I have no clue. I'm just irritated because I keep getting told different dates. I have no choice but to just sit here and wait.



The gal I just turned paperwork in to said 60 days is about where its at...some are getting done quicker but its because they have exigent circumstances..like holding a CCW permit, or are LEO,... and that sort of thing. "Average Joe" is at 60 days.


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## Inkd

Gilligan said:


> The gal I just turned paperwork in to said 60 days is about where its at...some are getting done quicker but its because they have exigent circumstances..like holding a CCW permit, or are LEO,... and that sort of thing. "Average Joe" is at 60 days.



Great, at that rate I'll be lucky to get my 1911 parts kit through in time to take the build class in July. Fvckers!!!!


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## sockgirl77

Gilligan said:


> The gal I just turned paperwork in to said 60 days is about where its at...some are getting done quicker but its because they have exigent circumstances..like holding a CCW permit, or are LEO,... and that sort of thing. "Average Joe" is at 60 days.



MSP and FFL are both saying 45 days but I'm guessing that 45 ####ing working days.


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## Bay_Kat

sockgirl77 said:


> MSP and FFL are both saying 45 days but I'm guessing that 45 ####ing working days.



Seem like it's been months for you.


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## sockgirl77

Bay_Kat said:


> Seem like it's been months for you.



My app was faxed on 3/11.


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## Bay_Kat

sockgirl77 said:


> My app was faxed on 3/11.



Oh, I thought it was longer than that.


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## sockgirl77

Bay_Kat said:


> Oh, I thought it was longer than that.



Nope. I just talked about it for awhile before actually buying it.


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## Blister

A couple that I know, he filled out the paperwork on 02/08, she on 02/10.
Picked up hers on Friday, his is still not back as of Friday.


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## zin

bulldog said:


> My understanding, as of now at least, is that the dealers will still be able to order any gun that has a higher mag capacity, but they won't be able to give you the original mag. Whether they replace it with one that is legal is up to them, I guess.
> For instance, when I bought my AR, it came with a standard, 30 round mag. However, it was not legal for the dealer to give me that mag so he replaced it with a POS 20 round mag. He (as the dealer) got to keep the 30 round mag that came with my gun. :-(  I have, of course, purchased a few 30 rounders since that time.



Same here, replaced with a 20 round mag, a Bushmaster brand at least.


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## itsbob

bulldog said:


> My understanding, as of now at least, is that the dealers will still be able to order any gun that has a higher mag capacity, but they won't be able to give you the original mag. Whether they replace it with one that is legal is up to them, I guess.
> For instance, when I bought my AR, it came with a standard, 30 round mag. However, it was not legal for the dealer to give me that mag so he replaced it with a POS 20 round mag. He (as the dealer) got to keep the 30 round mag that came with my gun. :-(  I have, of course, purchased a few 30 rounders since that time.



Depends on the upline dealer if they will ship to MD with the magazine in the box.

Went around and around with a dealer because they wouldn't just open the box and take the 30rd magazine out.  They refuse to open any box and remove magazines, AND refuse to ship any gun with a 30 rd magazine to MD.

Another I found had no issue, and put the responsibility of meeting state law on me and the FFL I'm using.

I mean IF I was going to buy a gun, this is what I expect would happen.. IF I was looking at a SIG rm400 enhanced gun..


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## NextJen

I filled out my paperwork on Saturday (5/4). Maybe I'll get my firearm back by Independence Day?


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## sockgirl77

NextJen said:


> I filled out my paperwork on Saturday (5/4). Maybe I'll get my firearm back by Independence Day?



I am still waiting. 56 days now. FFL says that they're still getting approvals back from the end of February, so you may be off by a few weeks.


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## itsbob

Good things the criminals are all on hiatus until we all get our paperwork approved.

I'd like to see the numbers of how many applications were denied after all this is said and done, and if the reason for disqualification was something that could have been done by a records check at the dealer.

What an extraordinary waste of taxpayer money.


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## itsbob

BG was reading a story to me last night (it was a bed time story, my favorites)..

A woman working from home, kids downstairs, her up in her office.  Knock at the door, she tells the kids not to answer, she looks out to see who it is as an unknown person goes to their car to retrieve a tire iron, and he starts to knock down her front door.

She gets the kids, escapes into a storage area in a bedroom and locks herself in.. calls her husband (in this case probably smarter than calling 911).. He tells her to get her gun, remember what he taught her, and do whatever it takes to protect her and the kids.

He's talking to 911 on another line while he's keeping her calm.

Intruder breaks into the bedroom, then finds them in the storage area/closet.. she shooots him.. Empties the gun, 6 rouds expended, 5 find the target.

The intruder is still alive, but luckily doesn't realize she's out of bullets as she keeps repeating, "Don't move, or I'll shoot you again!"

Would have been a good day to own a gun with more than a 6 round capacity, would have been a better day to have a gun that went "Pew! Pew! Pew!"   Of course the libs never take into account that it's not only the number of rounds you have, it's how many hit the intended target.  If 50% of your bullets find the target, I'd much rather have it be 50% of 15 instead of 50% of 6.

No talk of what caliber, but basically it says to me, a small caliber revolver is NOT good enough for the task of protecting yourself.  He still, though shot 5 times, could have probably still harmed or killed her and/or her kids.

You keep shooting until the threat is gone.. if he is going to kill you with your own gun make sure he has to beat you to death with it.


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## NextJen

sockgirl77 said:


> I am still waiting. 56 days now. FFL says that they're still getting approvals back from the end of February, so you may be off by a few weeks.



That's what I'm afraid of.


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## dustin

I'm waiting for news article opener: "Mom could have defended herself if the MSP wouldn't have taken 2 months to process her handgun application".


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## abcxyz

itsbob- it was a .38 with range rounds


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## itsbob

abcxyz said:


> itsbob- it was a .38 with range rounds



He took four to the face and neck, and one to the body.. and still lived to serve out his time. 

Unbelievable.. 

Of course MORE unbelievable is his wife proclaiming how he wouldn't hurt ANYbody..


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## Larry Gude

itsbob said:


> BG Of course the libs never take into account that it's not only the number of rounds you have, it's how many hit the intended target.  .



This really needs to stop or, at least be given more consideration. It ain't just 'the libs'. The danger here is in presuming friends we don't have. Again and again, sez I, I prefer to be punched in the face by an opponent than stabbed in the back by a friend. 

Speaker Boehner, our 'friend', could have called a simple press conference two months ago and said, flat out, 'the presidents proposed new guns laws will NOT protect anyone, would not have helped at Sandy Hook, or anywhere else and are nothing but the worst of political pandering. Unless and until he proposes something effective, good guys with guns at our schools, protection his children are worth, as are all of our kids, this congress will NOT consider nor waste time on helping him pleasing people who only seek dismantling of the second amendment one step at a time."

That would have put an end to this nonsense. Stopped it cold. 

Again, where is, where was Boehner??????


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## Gilligan

sockgirl77 said:


> I am still waiting. 56 days now. FFL says that they're still getting approvals back from the end of February, so you may be off by a few weeks.



My FFL said they're seeing them come back from the first week of March now, so two months is still a good estimate for most, apparently.


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## sockgirl77

Gilligan said:


> My FFL said they're seeing them come back from the first week of March now, so two months is still a good estimate for most, apparently.



I think that the dates vary depending on the FFL.


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## itsbob

larry gude said:


> this really needs to stop or, at least be given more consideration. It ain't just 'the libs'. The danger here is in presuming friends we don't have. Again and again, sez i, i prefer to be punched in the face by an opponent than stabbed in the back by a friend.
> 
> Speaker boehner, our 'friend', could have called a simple press conference two months ago and said, flat out, 'the presidents proposed new guns laws will not protect anyone, would not have helped at sandy hook, or anywhere else and are nothing but the worst of political pandering. Unless and until he proposes something effective, good guys with guns at our schools, protection his children are worth, as are all of our kids, this congress will not consider nor waste time on helping him pleasing people who only seek dismantling of the second amendment one step at a time."
> 
> that would have put an end to this nonsense. Stopped it cold.
> 
> Again, where is, where was boehner??????



agreed!


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## Gilligan

sockgirl77 said:


> I think that the dates vary depending on the FFL.



That seems weird to me. How could that be?


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## Ken King

Larry Gude said:


> Speaker Boehner, our 'friend', could have called a simple press conference two months ago and said, flat out, 'the presidents proposed new guns laws will NOT protect anyone, would not have helped at Sandy Hook, or anywhere else and are nothing but the worst of political pandering. Unless and until he proposes something effective, good guys with guns at our schools, protection his children are worth, as are all of our kids, this congress will NOT consider nor waste time on helping him pleasing people who only seek dismantling of the second amendment one step at a time."
> 
> That would have put an end to this nonsense. Stopped it cold.
> 
> Again, where is, where was Boehner??????


Why?  Why not do as he has done, you know, not letting a gun control bill get to the floor.  Sounds like your issue is one of style over substance.  I'll give you that Boehner ain't a Newt, not even close, but he doesn't have to be to stop a measure.  Why should he burn one iota of political capital when he doesn't have to?  Simply directing committee chairs so that they know that anything on the matter diminishing 2nd A rights will die, preferably in committee, is all that he needs to do.  Why make it a battle when he knows that he owns the game?


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## dustin

Ken King said:


> Why?  Why not do as he has done, you know, not letting a gun control bill get to the floor.  Sounds like your issue is one of style over substance.  I'll give you that Boehner ain't a Newt, not even close, but he doesn't have to be to stop a measure.  Why should he burn one iota of political capital when he doesn't have to?  Simply directing committee chairs so that they know that anything on the matter diminishing 2nd A rights will die, preferably in committee, is all that he needs to do.  Why make it a battle when he knows that he owns the game?


Maybe the house is trying to make as little "noise" as possible...  pregame strategy for their upcoming election cycle :shrug:


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## Ken King

dustin said:


> Maybe the house is trying to make as little "noise" as possible...  pregame strategy for their upcoming election cycle :shrug:


Perhaps. don't know for sure, but you can bet he has observed how over in the Senate any talk of a budget, tax relief, or whatever that isn't what Harry wants simply gets swept aside.  A great tactic for stagnation.


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## sockgirl77

Gilligan said:


> That seems weird to me. How could that be?



I've been reading the Maryland Shooters Forum and the dates vary. People are being told different things and FFLs are getting in different dates. I called All Pawn and Tackle Box on the same day (last Friday). One was getting in 2/24-2/26 and the other was getting in 2/28. :shrug:

Oh and I'm on day 58.


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## DEEKAYPEE8569

*Let's Just Say.....*

.....that this handgun purchase issue is resolved one day, to the benefit of Marylanders. What's next? CCW's, right? You think _buying_ a handgun is a PITA; wait til all the new gun owners want or apply for CCW's.


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## Shaolin_Raptor

Day 17. I've grown restless.


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## Midnightrider

Gilligan said:


> That seems weird to me. How could that be?



the email i got from the MSP rep indicated that they dont send them back to your FFl as soon as they are completed. Instead they collect several to many and then fax them by batch back to your FFL. Mine was apprently completed and "would be fax to your dealer" last week. My dealer still hasnt recieved it.


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## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> the email i got from the MSP rep indicated that they dont send them back to your FFl as soon as they are completed. Instead they collect several to many and then fax them by batch back to your FFL. Mine was apprently completed and "would be fax to your dealer" last week. My dealer still hasnt recieved it.




That could explain a few days variation, I guess. I know that the guy I buy from has a ton of them submitted.


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## itsbob

Gilligan said:


> That could explain a few days variation, I guess. I know that the guy I buy from has a ton of them submitted.



I went to a small mom and pop gun dealer, run out of his garage, and he had a stack of about 50 to submit the day I was there, maybe more.


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## Larry Gude

Ken King said:


> Why?  Why not do as he has done, you know, not letting a gun control bill get to the floor.  Sounds like your issue is one of style over substance.  I'll give you that Boehner ain't a Newt, not even close, but he doesn't have to be to stop a measure.  Why should he burn one iota of political capital when he doesn't have to?  Simply directing committee chairs so that they know that anything on the matter diminishing 2nd A rights will die, preferably in committee, is all that he needs to do.  Why make it a battle when he knows that he owns the game?



Substance is winning a major battle with little effort and spending NO capital. That would have been what happened had he shut it down in the beginning. 

Style is 'Gee, I hope I won't have to deal with this...' and let it burn and let it grow. 

We see this differently. To me, he BUILDS capital doing it the easy way early on. Later, as circumstances evolve, another Sandy Hook, say, he could easily find this monster at his door step. 

It's the difference between leadership and just being another politician.


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## Ken King

Larry Gude said:


> Substance is winning a major battle with little effort and spending NO capital. That would have been what happened had he shut it down in the beginning.
> 
> Style is 'Gee, I hope I won't have to deal with this...' and let it burn and let it grow.
> 
> We see this differently. To me, he BUILDS capital doing it the easy way early on. Later, as circumstances evolve, another Sandy Hook, say, he could easily find this monster at his door step.
> 
> It's the difference between leadership and just being another politician.


He is the leader of the House.  Whether anyone likes it or not he still has to deal with the guys on the other side of the aisle. He could be the "mean old white guy" you seem to want and kicked up a furry right from the get-go, but he would have still had to face the bill when presented to the House by the Senate.


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## czygvtwkr

Ken King said:


> He is the leader of the House.  Whether anyone likes it or not he still has to deal with the guys on the other side of the aisle. He could be the "mean old white guy" you seem to want and kicked up a furry right from the get-go, but he would have still had to face the bill when presented to the House by the Senate.



Larry doesn't seem to understand that there is a very large number of the population falling for the "Conservatives are mean old white guys" line and thinks that if they are just good at being mean old white guys people will vote for them.


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## smilin

I ordered from a shop in Pennsylvania, which then shipped overnight to FFL here on April 19. I was told it would take five weeks then...
Have not heard a peep. 
I understand that the law states if the backround check is not finished in seven days then the FFL can release the weapon. Of course no dealer is going to tick off the State boys. Can you imagine the wait after doing _that_?


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## Midnightrider

smilin said:


> I ordered from a shop in Pennsylvania, which then shipped overnight to FFL here on April 19. I was told it would take five weeks then...
> Have not heard a peep.
> I understand that the law states if the backround check is not finished in seven days then the FFL can release the weapon. Of course no dealer is going to tick off the State boys. Can you imagine the wait after doing _that_?



i got mine on the 8th day but the FFL isnt doing that anymore. (I am still waitng on the paperwork even though the MSP said it had been processed and would be sent to the FFL last week).

I bet many places are doing it but they just dont advertise the fact.


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## sockgirl77

Just talked to MSP. They are processing 3/10 and 3/11. I may have my gun soon. 


I'm on Day 59.


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## itsbob

sockgirl77 said:


> Just talked to MSP. They are processing 3/10 and 3/11. I may have my gun soon.
> 
> 
> I'm on Day 59.




Where do you get your information??

I'm kind of hopeing it goes a LITTLE longer than the expected 60 days, so I can get the .22 upper and barrel I want.


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## sockgirl77

itsbob said:


> Where do you get your information??
> 
> I'm kind of hopeing it goes a LITTLE longer than the expected 60 days, so I can get the .22 upper and barrel I want.



410-653-4500 

Press 4
then 
Press 1

When they ask what division say firearms licensing. They tell you what date they are processing and if you've been sent to review. They are now sending people to review for ignorant reasons, one of which is speeding tickets. The other is that they are flagging certain last names (Rodriguez and Gonzalez are on that list). If you are not a member of the Maryland Shooters forum, you should be. I've found A LOT of great info on there.


----------



## bulldog

Midnightrider said:


> i got mine on the 8th day but the FFL isnt doing that anymore. (I am still waitng on the paperwork even though the MSP said it had been processed and would be sent to the FFL last week).
> 
> I bet many places are doing it but they just dont advertise the fact.



Some are, but not many. And the ones that are are only doing it for well known, repeat customers. Mine is still doing it, releasing guns on day 10...if he knows you well enough to trust you.



sockgirl77 said:


> 410-653-4500
> 
> Press 4
> then
> Press 1
> 
> When they ask what division say firearms licensing. They tell you what date they are processing and if you've been sent to review. They are now sending people to review for ignorant reasons, one of which is speeding tickets. The other is that they are flagging certain last names (Rodriguez and Gonzalez are on that list). If you are not a member of the Maryland Shooters forum, you should be. I've found A LOT of great info on there.



Is this entire process automated? If not, realize that every phone call that they have to answer personally takes away from the time they have to actually process the applications. That is one of the complaints that MSP made to the folks at MSI...tell folks to stop calling, we're going as fast as we can, but you're f'ing yourselves by calling us and wasting our time.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

bulldog said:


> Some are, but not many. And the ones that are are only doing it for well known, repeat customers. Mine is still doing it, releasing guns on day 10...if he knows you well enough to trust you.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this entire process automated? If not, realize that every phone call that they have to answer personally takes away from the time they have to actually process the applications. That is one of the complaints that MSP made to the folks at MSI...tell folks to stop calling, we're going as fast as we can, but you're f'ing yourselves by calling us and wasting our time.



I understand not calling, but the only reason this is taking so long, is because of the MSP.

I find it ridiculous that ATF policy says we can get the gun back on day 8, even if the MSP is acting as the POC for the NICS, but we can't.

I find it ridiculous that we have to pay $10 for the application, but we are still at the whim of the MSP.

I find it ridiculous that they have to manually put someone's name in 17 different databases.

I find this entire f-ing state ridiculous.


----------



## sockgirl77

bulldog said:


> Some are, but not many. And the ones that are are only doing it for well known, repeat customers. Mine is still doing it, releasing guns on day 10...if he knows you well enough to trust you.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this entire process automated? If not, realize that every phone call that they have to answer personally takes away from the time they have to actually process the applications. That is one of the complaints that MSP made to the folks at MSI...tell folks to stop calling, we're going as fast as we can, but you're f'ing yourselves by calling us and wasting our time.



It's not automated.  I'm sorry but I've been waiting 2 months so I felt the need to call.


----------



## Larry Gude

Chris0nllyn said:


> I understand not calling, but the only reason this is taking so long, is because of the MSP.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that ATF policy says we can get the gun back on day 8, even if the MSP is acting as the POC for the NICS, but we can't.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that we have to pay $10 for the application, but we are still at the whim of the MSP.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that they have to manually put someone's name in 17 different databases.
> 
> I find this entire f-ing state ridiculous.



Just imagine the outrage and outcry if people had to do the same thing to get my money via welfare, unemployment, etc.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Larry Gude said:


> Just imagine the outrage and outcry if people had to do the same thing to get my money via welfare, unemployment, etc.



Priorities Larry....


----------



## bulldog

Chris0nllyn said:


> I understand not calling, but the only reason this is taking so long, is because of the MSP.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that ATF policy says we can get the gun back on day 8, even if the MSP is acting as the POC for the NICS, but we can't.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that we have to pay $10 for the application, but we are still at the whim of the MSP.
> 
> I find it ridiculous that they have to manually put someone's name in 17 different databases.
> 
> I find this entire f-ing state ridiculous.



I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm simply saying that for each phone call they take it is probably one application not processed.


----------



## bulldog

sockgirl77 said:


> It's not automated.  I'm sorry but I've been waiting 2 months so I felt the need to call.



I have absolutely zero issues with anyone calling, it's your right to do so and I may too, if I were not in good with my gun guy. I'm just passing on what was said...

Good luck to you and your new gun.


----------



## sockgirl77

bulldog said:


> I have absolutely zero issues with anyone calling, it's your right to do so and I may too, if I were not in good with my gun guy. I'm just passing on what was said...
> 
> Good luck to you and your new gun.



Thank you.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

bulldog said:


> I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm simply saying that for each phone call they take it is probably one application not processed.



I agree 100%.

I just think it's a shame.


----------



## itsbob

Larry Gude said:


> Just imagine the outrage and outcry if people had to do the same thing to get my money via welfare, unemployment, etc.



I like THAT idea.. 

Maybe the citizens should form a coalition to approve new welfare funding.. Check with ALL surrounding states, and counties to ensure they aren't already getting benefits from somewhere else, and have some poor schmuck at a desk inputtint every single one of them for EVERY single state and county..

By the time they got their first check I bet they'd be looking for a job.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

itsbob said:


> I like THAT idea..
> 
> Maybe the citizens should form a coalition to approve new welfare funding.. Check with ALL surrounding states, and counties to ensure they aren't already getting benefits from somewhere else, and have some poor schmuck at a desk inputtint every single one of them for EVERY single state and county..
> 
> By the time they got their first check I bet they'd be looking for a job.



You mean a welfare system that encourages someone to go find a job?!

What a crazy idea!


----------



## PsyOps

My M&P came in on Monday and the guy told me the wait is 75 days or more.


----------



## sockgirl77

PsyOps said:


> My M&P came in on Monday and the guy told me the wait is 75 days or more.



Yeah I called my FFL tonight. He said that MSP might be processing 3/11 today, but they're faxing the approvals from the week before to him.


----------



## ZARA

It took 71 days to get my "Not disapproved." Somewhere near 60 days for my husband.

Few articles discussing it:

Maryland Delayed Gun Background Checks Until New Gun Control Law Passed // Mr. Conservative

Maryland Deliberately Delaying Firearms Background Checks Until New Gun Grab Law Passes ~ J O S H U A P U N D I T

Forums - some are up to 80 days:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=45346&page=302


----------



## Gilligan

ZARA said:


> It took 71 days to get my "Not disapproved." Somewhere near 60 days for my husband.
> 
> Few articles discussing it:
> 
> Maryland Delayed Gun Background Checks Until New Gun Control Law Passed // Mr. Conservative
> 
> Maryland Deliberately Delaying Firearms Background Checks Until New Gun Grab Law Passes ~ J O S H U A P U N D I T
> 
> Forums - some are up to 80 days:
> MSP wait times for handgun approval - Page 302 - Maryland Shooters




FWIW....I was told just yesterday by my FFL that 10 state troopers were temporarily re-assigned recently and brought up to speed and are now actively assisting with the review process. That does not sound like a delaying tactic to me...assuming its true.


----------



## itsbob

Gilligan said:


> FWIW....I was told just yesterday by my FFL that 10 state troopers were temporarily re-assigned recently and brought up to speed and are now actively assisting with the review process. That does not sound like a delaying tactic to me...assuming its true.



As many cops that support the new laws and the infringement of our rights there are still as many (and hopefully more) that support our rights.. 

The problem is the ones at positions of authority are appointed.

I wonder if one of the annointe.. I'm sorry, appointed ones hear of this those ten will be sent back to where they came.


----------



## NextJen

Please enjoy this music while you wait.....


----------



## Gilligan

itsbob said:


> As many cops that support the new laws and the infringement of our rights there are still as many (and hopefully more) that support our rights..
> 
> The problem is the ones at positions of authority are appointed.
> 
> I wonder if one of the annointe.. I'm sorry, appointed ones hear of this those ten will be sent back to where they came.



I dunno. Reportedly it initially slowed the process down as those who normally run the system had to veer off and help train the new assignees. But now its supposed to be all good and kick in to a higher gear to try and reduce the backlog.

Again...I have no confirmation of that but it was relayed by someone very close to that actual process.


----------



## ZARA

We are now waiting on the background check for our lower receiver. We will see how long that takes.


----------



## smilin

Received an email about a filed complaint from MSI and assorted gun range owners and dealers:
"... Baltimore County Circuit Court against the Maryland State Police (MSP) for the state’s failure to process firearm applications within the seven days mandated by Maryland law." 

Maryland Shall Issue Files Suit Against MSP


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I don't see that going anywhere....which does suck. I know gun shops will like it since they will be able to get rid of all the weapons they have been holding for 50+ days.


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> I don't see that going anywhere....which does suck. I know gun shops will like it since they will be able to get rid of all the weapons they have been holding for 50+ days.



63 days here.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

That sucks. I don't like to wait for impulse buys....


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> That sucks. I don't like to wait for impulse buys....



Are you assuming that everyone that is waiting for their gun right now bought it on impulse? I know that I certainly did not.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Hell no. But when I buy something, I want it now. I don't even like waiting for shipping. I bought two guns at the same time, the second was impulse, the first was not.


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Hell no. But when I buy something, I want it now. I don't even like waiting for shipping. I bought two guns at the same time, the second was impulse, the first was not.



On Target in Severn has been releasing handguns on the 8th day. I'm sure that they are pricey, but they have a pretty good reputation. I wish that I would have heard about them first. But, I only paid $25 for my transfer. hwell;


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I know some people are releasing them. I understand why some do, and I understand why some don't. A nice catch 22. It would be nice if previous applicants had a seperate pile than could be run through at a faster pace.


----------



## bulldog

No idea whether it will bust the log jam of applications open or not, but MSP is currently being sued by 5 private individuals, Maryland Shall Issue, Associated Gun Clubs, etc., for the fact that the wait is so far beyond what COMAR states.  Hopefully this will entice them to react more quickly (some have opined that our wonderful Martin O has instructed MSP to "take their time" in processing applications) or force them to do so as a result of court order.


----------



## sockgirl77

65 days.


----------



## Midnightrider

bulldog said:


> No idea whether it will bust the log jam of applications open or not, but MSP is currently being sued by 5 private individuals, Maryland Shall Issue, Associated Gun Clubs, etc., for the fact that the wait is so far beyond what COMAR states.  Hopefully this will entice them to react more quickly (some have opined that our wonderful Martin O has instructed MSP to "take their time" in processing applications) or force them to do so as a result of court order.



If that is the case, and Omalley is forcing a slow down, why would you expect it to get better with pending litigation? Seems like they might just come to an all stop. 
I noticed they decided to deny all of the pending carry permits that were submitted without the G&S.


----------



## bulldog

Midnightrider said:


> If that is the case, and Omalley is forcing a slow down, why would you expect it to get better with pending litigation? Seems like they might just come to an all stop.
> I noticed they decided to deny all of the pending carry permits that were submitted without the G&S.



I did not say I "expect", I said "hopefully". Maybe (doubtful) the AG will put a bug in his ear and tell him that he's been caught in the act and that it's not worth the $$$ that it will take to go to court.  Who knows in this state?

Yep, I got my denial letter in the mail Monday. Next steps will be interesting.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Gansler, do anything to speed up the process?


----------



## sockgirl77

According to MSP, I will be able to get my gun today.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

How did you find out? Also, what did you get?


----------



## Midnightrider

sockgirl77 said:


> According to MSP, I will be able to get my gun today.



according to MSP my paperwork was supposed to be faxed on may 3, it wasn't. Dont be too crushed if you dont get the call.


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> How did you find out? Also, what did you get?



They emailed me. I emailed them yesterday inquiring about my application. I've talked to quite a few people that have been getting their 3/10 and 3/11s back. FFL told me yesterday that my day was coming in so it should be today. Then, I get the MSP email. 

Oh and I got the Sig Sauer Mosquito (.22), in pink. The bf calls it my pea shooter. I call it "say that again and I'll shut you the #### up".


----------



## bulldog

Well, didja get it?


----------



## sockgirl77

bulldog said:


> Well, didja get it?



No and I'm pissed. I talked to the FFL and they said that they got faxes off and on all day but mine was not included. But, they are on the same day. I'll be nice and wait until this afternoon to call. I did reply to the MSP email asking them to verify that the fax was sent yesterday if it was or to verify that it will be faxed today if it was not.


----------



## Midnightrider

sockgirl77 said:


> No and I'm pissed. I talked to the FFL and they said that they got faxes off and on all day but mine was not included. But, they are on the same day. I'll be nice and wait until this afternoon to call. I did reply to the MSP email asking them to verify that the fax was sent yesterday if it was or to verify that it will be faxed today if it was not.



like i said, the MSP told me mine would be faxed back on may 3 and still nothing. At least i have had my gun since early march so it doesn't really bother me, i am just wanting to know when my 30 day wait started.


----------



## sockgirl77

Midnightrider said:


> like i said, the MSP told me mine would be faxed back on may 3 and still nothing. At least i have had my gun since early march so it doesn't really bother me, i am just wanting to know when my 30 day wait started.


----------



## smilin

Just called FFL. Wait is now 8 - 10 weeks....


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

*If Maryland Ever Made It Easier*

.....to get a CCW; I know, different topic for a different tred; can you imagine how long it would take to get _one of those_? Not to mention the cost.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Hopefully the courts rule that MSP taking their sweet time isn't right, and forces them to expedite applications.....


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I assume that the wait time goes up by at least a day every day. 2013 and we are all waiting on faxes. I'm going to go check my electronic mail and see if dot matrix has finished printing my document. Can you believe how much data a floppy holds?


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

Chris0nllyn said:


> Hopefully the courts rule that MSP taking their sweet time isn't right, and forces them to expedite applications.....



As long as forcing MSP to speed it up doesn't come back at us with higher fee's somewhere.


----------



## Tilted

Think about how frustrating these delays may end up being for some unfortunate people that haven't yet begun the process to buy a handgun. As the law was passed, there is no exception to the handgun qualification license requirement for people that begin the process before the law takes effect. If the time to process applications remains as it is now, someone that tries to buy a handgun in late July may not get their approval (i.e. their not not approved) until after October 1. In that case, they wouldn't be allowed to _"receive"_ their handgun without a handgun qualification license. If they didn't already own a regulated firearm, and weren't otherwise exempt from the training requirements, they'd then have to go through the required training before they could get their handgun. Even if they did already own a regulated firearm, they'd have to get the license (and, e.g., submit fingerprints) before they could get their handgun - they just wouldn't have to do the training.

So, because the MSP can't get the applications processed in anything approaching a timely manner, those people wouldn't be able to get their handguns without the hassle of the license even though they tried to buy them well before the new license requirement was supposed to go into effect. Imagine being in that situation and it coming down to the last few days of September and you're still hoping and praying the MSP finally gets your paperwork sent back to the FFL.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Tilted said:


> Think about how frustrating these delays may end up being for some unfortunate people that haven't yet begun the process to buy a handgun. As the law was passed, there is no exception to the handgun qualification license requirement for people that begin the process before the law takes effect. If the time to process applications remains as it is now, someone that tries to buy a handgun in late July may not get their approval (i.e. their not not approved) until after October 1. In that case, they wouldn't be allowed to _"receive"_ their handgun without a handgun qualification license. If they didn't already own a regulated firearm, and weren't otherwise exempt from the training requirements, they'd then have to go through the required training before they could get their handgun. Even if they did already own a regulated firearm, they'd have to get the license (and, e.g., submit fingerprints) before they could get their handgun - they just wouldn't have to do the training.
> 
> So, because the MSP can't get the applications processed in anything approaching a timely manner, those people wouldn't be able to get their handguns without the hassle of the license even though they tried to buy them well before the new license requirement was supposed to go into effect. Imagine being in that situation and it coming down to the last few days of September and you're still hoping and praying the MSP finally gets your paperwork sent back to the FFL.



Let's not forget that MSP hasn't even come up with a "training program", for citizens to get this license.

There will be a dead time between 10/1, and whenever the hell they come up with these programs.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I can't wait to see the cost for the training, facility, instructors....taxes maybe?


----------



## sockgirl77




----------



## sockgirl77

OMMFG! So after a few phone calls to my FFL and MSP trying to figure out why they never received my approval fax I FINALLY get an answer...I received the email in error. My background check was approved BUT I supposedly have a common name and my application has been sent to further review. Are you ####ing kidding me? Jesus ####ing Christ. UnMother####ing#Believable! My name is FAR from common! WTF???


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Why would a common last name require further review? "Smith eh? Run this up, this guy sounds suspicious"


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Why would a common last name require further review? "Smith eh? Run this up, this guy sounds suspicious"



That's the excuse that they are using. Absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## itsbob

sockgirl77 said:


> OMMFG! So after a few phone calls to my FFL and MSP trying to figure out why they never received my approval fax I FINALLY get an answer...I received the email in error. My background check was approved BUT I supposedly have a common name and my application has been sent to further review. Are you ####ing kidding me? Jesus ####ing Christ. UnMother####ing#Believable! My name is FAR from common! WTF???



It's pretty common.. I knew a Larry.. kind of famous actually, owned a Chevy Dealership in Indiana..

Heard a rumor he was some kind of athlete too.. 

But damn he was fugly..


----------



## sockgirl77

itsbob said:


> It's pretty common.. I knew a Larry.. kind of famous actually, owned a Chevy Dealership in Indiana..
> 
> Heard a rumor he was some kind of athlete too..
> 
> But damn he was fugly..



My name is NOT common. I know A LOT of people that have been getting guns during this messed up crap. I'm the only person that I know that has been fed this line of crap. Three of my friends that have gotten guns in the past few weeks are Michael, James, and Robert. All three have fairly common last names as well. Oh and let's not forget about BOB!


----------



## Midnightrider

sockgirl77 said:


> OMMFG! So after a few phone calls to my FFL and MSP trying to figure out why they never received my approval fax I FINALLY get an answer...I received the email in error. My background check was approved BUT I supposedly have a common name and my application has been sent to further review. Are you ####ing kidding me? Jesus ####ing Christ. UnMother####ing#Believable! My name is FAR from common! WTF???



as i understand it you were not approved if you went to further investigation.

In any case, the uniformed officer review process is only running 3-6 weeks longer than the more "instant" 7(70) day wait


----------



## sockgirl77

Midnightrider said:


> as i understand it you were not approved if you went to further investigation.
> 
> In any case, the uniformed officer review process is only running 3-6 weeks longer than the more "instant" 7(70) day wait



From what the chick (Ms. Brock) said, I was "not disapproved" based on passing the background check but my "common" name has sent my application for further review. Of course this is coming from the same chick that said that a voicemail was left for me yesterday explaining this which is a crock of shiat.


----------



## NextJen

sockgirl77 said:


> From what the chick (Ms. Brock) said, I was "not disapproved" based on passing the background check but my "common" name has sent my application for further review. Of course this is coming from the same chick that said that a voicemail was left for me yesterday explaining this which is a crock of shiat.



Maybe they saw post #104 and decided to do a little more checking.


----------



## sockgirl77

NextJen said:


> Maybe they saw post #104 and decided to do a little more checking.


----------



## bohman

sockgirl77 said:


> My name is NOT common. I know A LOT of people that have been getting guns during this messed up crap. I'm the only person that I know that has been fed this line of crap. Three of my friends that have gotten guns in the past few weeks are Michael, James, and Robert. All three have fairly common last names as well. Oh and let's not forget about BOB!



Go check some of the threads on MDShooters, sadly you are NOT the only one being fed this line of crap.  They're doing it to a lot of people, and yes, it's crap.

Oh, and I'm up to day 37 here.    Plenty of time left for me sit and stew, and wonder if they'll throw me into that wonderful "further review" pile.


----------



## sockgirl77

bohman said:


> Go check some of the threads on MDShooters, sadly you are NOT the only one being fed this line of crap.  They're doing it to a lot of people, and yes, it's crap.
> 
> Oh, and I'm up to day 37 here.    Plenty of time left for me sit and stew, and wonder if they'll throw me into that wonderful "further review" pile.



I have. I'm on day 69.


----------



## Inkd

sockgirl77 said:


> From what the chick (Ms. Brock) said, I was "not disapproved" based on passing the background check but my "common" name has sent my application for further review. Of course this is coming from the same chick that said that a voicemail was left for me yesterday explaining this which is a crock of shiat.



Call her back and ask if there was a NICS number given for the background.

I'm not an FFL so I may be wrong. But, from what I remember, if you get a "Not Disapproved", that should be the end of it.

I'll email my FFL dealer and ask for sure but I don't believe you can be not disapproved and still held on for further investigation?


----------



## ZARA

Inkd said:


> Call her back and ask if there was a NICS number given for the background.
> 
> I'm not an FFL so I may be wrong. But, from what I remember, if you get a "Not Disapproved", that should be the end of it.
> 
> I'll email my FFL dealer and ask for sure but I don't believe you can be not disapproved and still held on for further investigation?



I think Inkd is correct. But MD is a strange state so we could be wrong...


----------



## sockgirl77

sockgirl77 said:


> I have. I'm on day 69.



I can't county. I was on Day 70. I'm now on day 73.


----------



## Tilted

sockgirl77 said:


> I can't county. I was on Day 70. I'm now on day 73.



That's beyond obnoxious. If the government is going to presume that it has the right to prevent people from acquiring a firearm, in the name of public safety, until it has a chance to individually approve them to do so, then it has a duty to provide or deny that approval in a timely manner. It has a moral duty, it has a 'because-I-don't-want-to-rightfully-be-considered-an-#######-by-reasonable-members-of-society' duty, and it should have an unavoidable and unequivocal legal duty.

Two and a half months? That is in no way timely. Piss or get off the pot. If Maryland can't do the checks quickly enough such that the primary effect of doing them remains the supposed benefit to public safety, rather than the inconveniencing of would-be gun owners (the latter being the primary effect at this point), then it should give up the exercise until it can do them within a reasonable amount of time. Let the federal government do the instant checks that it is set up to do. It's disgusting, and everyone involved in the process should be ashamed of themselves - 'I'm just doing my job' doesn't absolve them. At this point that job they are doing has become (if it wasn't to begin with, as a matter of principle) an embodiment of government oppression. If the government wants to insist it has the right to do this kind of stuff, then it must at least set-up a system to do it properly and not be completely incompetent at it. The government's incompetence in this regard should be to the detriment of the government, not the individuals who are the helpless victims of that incompetence.

You ask permission from the government to buy something you want or need, as the government insists you must do - that's offensive enough. But then rather than giving you or denying you that permission fairly quickly - as it could if it really wanted to and as any decent tyrant would, it makes you wait 70 plus days before doing you the favor of telling you whether you have permission to buy something that you should have every right to buy (without permission). Seventy days without what you want or need. Our government is an #######, I think that's the best - the most succinct - way to put it.

Let's have some T-Shirts made. "Our government is an #######."


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I vote for tattoo's.


----------



## Tilted

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> I vote for tattoo's.



On the forehead?

I'm game if everyone else is.

No... wait... who the hell am I kidding?


----------



## sockgirl77

Tilted said:


> On the forehead?
> 
> I'm game if everyone else is.
> 
> No... wait... who the hell am I kidding?



Please get this, only on your forehead...


----------



## nutz

Tilted said:


> That's beyond obnoxious. If the government is going to presume that it has the right to prevent people from acquiring a firearm, in the name of public safety, until it has a chance to individually approve them to do so, then it has a duty to provide or deny that approval in a timely manner. It has a moral duty, it has a 'because-I-don't-want-to-rightfully-be-considered-an-#######-by-reasonable-members-of-society' duty, and it should have an unavoidable and unequivocal legal duty.
> 
> Two and a half months? That is in no way timely. Piss or get off the pot. If Maryland can't do the checks quickly enough such that the primary effect of doing them remains the supposed benefit to public safety, rather than the inconveniencing of would-be gun owners (the latter being the primary effect at this point), then it should give up the exercise until it can do them within a reasonable amount of time. Let the federal government do the instant checks that it is set up to do. It's disgusting, and everyone involved in the process should be ashamed of themselves - 'I'm just doing my job' doesn't absolve them. At this point that job they are doing has become (if it wasn't to begin with, as a matter of principle) an embodiment of government oppression. If the government wants to insist it has the right to do this kind of stuff, then it must at least set-up a system to do it properly and not be completely incompetent at it. The government's incompetence in this regard should be to the detriment of the government, not the individuals who are the helpless victims of that incompetence.
> 
> You ask permission from the government to buy something you want or need, as the government insists you must do - that's offensive enough. But then rather than giving you or denying you that permission fairly quickly - as it could if it really wanted to and as any decent tyrant would, it makes you wait 70 plus days before doing you the favor of telling you whether you have permission to buy something that you should have every right to buy (without permission). Seventy days without what you want or need. Our government is an #######, I think that's the best - the most succinct - way to put it.
> 
> Let's have some T-Shirts made. "Our government is an #######."



That's a huge part of what maryland shall issue (marylandshallissue.org), the second amendment foundation (Second Amendment Foundation Online) and the NRA (NRA) have been looking at.  There is reasonable room for doubt that while litigation is under way, Md.'s rulers are in a hurry to do anything. Delay, delay, delay until everyone tires of hearing about it.


----------



## smilin

I just received a read receipt from Senator Mike Miller of my _April 4th_ email asking him to reconsider voting for Senate Bill 281.
Apparently delays are tolerable very high up in our 'Free' State' hierarchy too.



BTW: No reply - just a receipt.


Week 5 and holding. In case you think owning a gun previously makes a difference - it doesn't.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

smilin said:


> I just received a read receipt from Senator Mike Miller of my _April 4th_ email asking him to reconsider voting for Senate Bill 281.
> Apparently delays are tolerable very high up in our 'Free' State' hierarchy too.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW: No reply - just a receipt.
> 
> 
> Week 5 and holding. In case you think owning a gun previously makes a difference - it doesn't.



You actually got anything from him? 

He must have hated my e-mail.


----------



## StadEMS3

Went to Big Dog Outfitters in King George yesterday to buy my step son an S&W M&P 15-22. Luckly it was cash carry gun. Most in the store said they felt sorry for us law abiding Marylanders with our Bull$1t laws and extended wait checks. Thier background check is 15 minutes in store...

I said they should open a store in MD- they said hell no!!


----------



## sockgirl77

StadEMS3 said:


> Went to Big Dog Outfitters in King George yesterday to buy my step son an S&W M&P 15-22. Luckly it was cash carry gun. Most in the store said they felt sorry for us law abiding Marylanders with our Bull$1t laws and extended wait checks. Thier background check is 15 minutes in store...
> 
> I said they should open a store in MD- they said hell no!!



That's where I bought my gun. They were great. They were also the only place around that had it in stock. The guy told me that I needed a hug for being brave enough to deal with the MD process right now.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Any news?


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Any news?



77 ####ing days.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

That sucks.


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> That sucks.



11 times the amount of time that it should have taken.


----------



## Misfit

sockgirl77 said:


> 11 times the amount of time that it should have taken.



I went shooting yesterday. It was fun & I didn't hurt myself  but now I have to clean them...I hate that part.


----------



## sockgirl77

Misfit said:


> I went shooting yesterday. It was fun & I didn't hurt myself  but now I have to clean them...I hate that part.



The guns or did you actually shoot something?


----------



## Misfit

sockgirl77 said:


> The guns or did you actually shoot something?



Oh...no, I'm more of a gatherer. I'd feel bad if I killed anything.  I have to clean the guns.


----------



## sockgirl77

Misfit said:


> Oh...no, I'm more of a gatherer. I'd feel bad if I killed anything.  I have to clean the guns.



I have a dead bear in my freezer...


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I love cleaning my pistols. I lay out a towel, light a candle, find the oil.......

I am looking forward to getting my 1911's so I can take them apart and look at the bits.


----------



## Misfit

sockgirl77 said:


> I have a dead bear in my freezer...



Why? I mean a live one would probably eat a lot but what can you do with a frozen bear?


----------



## sockgirl77

Misfit said:


> Why? I mean a live one would probably eat a lot but what can you do with a frozen bear?



Eat it.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

What would you dooo OOOO oooooo


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> What would you dooo OOOO oooooo



 I'd eat that too.


----------



## Misfit

sockgirl77 said:


> Eat it.



Really? A bear? I never knew you could eat a bear. 


I've always thought that they should have named Killer Whales Sea Panda's instead. Probably not relitave to this conversation but well, there it is.


----------



## sockgirl77

Misfit said:


> Really? A bear? I never knew you could eat a bear.
> 
> 
> I've always thought that they should have named Killer Whales Sea Panda's instead. Probably not relitave to this conversation but well, there it is.



Yep. I'm making bear meatloaf and bear sausage this week. I'll probably make some bear chili and freeze it for the winter.


----------



## itsbob

sockgirl77 said:


> I have a dead bear in my freezer...



Don't like it.. 

Prefer a Ribeye, or a T-Bone to Bear meat ANYDAY!!


----------



## sockgirl77

itsbob said:


> Don't like it..
> 
> Prefer a Ribeye, or a T-Bone to Bear meat ANYDAY!!



I'm sure that I will too. But, this is free meat and it will be eaten.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Bear brats? 

How do you prepare bear? Is it like deer or beef?


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Bear brats?
> 
> How do you prepare bear? Is it like deer or beef?



I'm making breakfast sausage patties out of it. 

Beef, from what I'm being told. I now have 2 solid recipes for meatloaf and lasagne.


----------



## Misfit

How could you eat this?


----------



## Gilligan

sockgirl77 said:


> 77 ####ing days.



Wait..what?? It's starting to look like they are losing a day every day.


----------



## sockgirl77

Gilligan said:


> Wait..what?? It's starting to look like they are losing a day every day.



I'm being told that I'm still looking at another week and a half to 2 weeks.


----------



## sockgirl77

78 days. Today isn't Monday.


----------



## smilin

Just found this statement on the MSP web page:
 "The Firearms Registration 
Section is currently processing applications received on March 19, 2013 for initial reviews while 
secondary reviews are working on applications received on March 03, 2013."


Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division


----------



## itsbob

smilin said:


> Just found this statement on the MSP web page:
> "The Firearms Registration
> Section is currently processing applications received on March 19, 2013 for initial reviews while
> secondary reviews are working on applications received on March 03, 2013."
> 
> 
> Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division



I don't remember when I started the paperwork process.. 

But I'm sure it wasn't 75 days ago.


----------



## smilin

I find it interesting that in the faq section of the web site they say that you should expect a 90 day wait.


----------



## Gilligan

itsbob said:


> I don't remember when I started the paperwork process..
> 
> But I'm sure it wasn't 75 days ago.



I had one start the clock the first week in April. At this rate, I'll see it in July...maybe.  And another the end of April for my SO...


----------



## struggler44

itsbob said:


> I don't remember when I started the paperwork process..
> 
> But I'm sure it wasn't 75 days ago.



Maybe they're still trying to find some dirt on you, be very afraid if they ask you to sit on the "Group W" bench


----------



## struggler44

Misfit said:


> How could you eat this?



With a fork, a very small shiny fork


----------



## sockgirl77

struggler44 said:


> With a fork, a very small shiny fork


----------



## Tech

struggler44 said:


> Maybe they're still trying to find some dirt on you, be very afraid if they ask you to sit on the "Group W" bench



The father rapers turned out to be nice guys but I still had to pay $50 and pick up the garbage.


----------



## Tilted

sockgirl77 said:


> 78 days. Today isn't Monday.



You have my continuing sympathy, it's a pretty disgusting situation.

But on the bright side, if they do eventually 'not disapprove' you, the rest of us can sleep comfortable knowing that you are in no way, shape, or form a threat to our safety. They've taken the time to investigate every part of your character, examine your psychological make-up, run simulations of how you might react in different situations, and determine with near certainty that you will never use your newly acquired regulated firearm in a manner detrimental to society. Heck, if you ever are charged with a violent crime involving this weapon, your lawyer will probably be able to get the charges dismissed based on the MSP's exhaustive vetting of your character and your potential to do violence with this firearm. They've basically already proven that you aren't guilty of any crime you may be accused of in the future. So that's the upside of the long wait.


----------



## Tilted

In all seriousness though, I ask for insight from anyone that might be able to offer it. I've read the relevant portions of Maryland's Public Safety Article. It's pretty clear, a licensee has to wait 7 days (after submitting an application) before releasing a regulated firearm to the customer. I can find nothing in the law that suggest they would be doing something wrong by releasing it after that 7 days is up - nothing about it being their responsibility to recover it if the application later comes back disapproved (which I'm aware that the MSP has suggested to a particular seller that they would have to do). In fact, it would be a violation of the law for the MSP to return an application as disapproved after the 7 day time limit. The law doesn't provide any punishment for that violation, as far as I noticed, but it does say that if the MSP (i.e. _"the Secretary"_) disapproves an application, it has to notify the licensee within 7 days of the application being submitted.

Now I get that there's the law on the one hand and there's the reality of what the MSP can get away with on the other. I'm aware that those things may not align as well as they should. There's also the law on the one hand and, on the other, the real world in which a licensee may fear some kind of liability even though they fully complied with the law and where they may fear drawing the ire of the MSP for, again, complying with the law but not accommodating the MSP's own failure to comply with the law (i.e by releasing a regulated firearm after 7 days but before the MSP returns a disapproved application.

So, here are my questions. Am I reading the law wrong? Is the MSP not _required_ by the law to return a disapproval within 7 days? And if I'm not wrong on that point, is there any legal authority that justifies their untimely return of disapproved applications or supports the suggestion that licensees are doing something wrong or taking a risk in releasing regulated firearms after 7 days? Now that I've thought about it a little more, though I understand the position that licensees find themselves in, I think I would refuse to do business with any that indicated they wouldn't release a firearm to me after 7 days. Not that they'd care all that much, they have larger concerns.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

lol


----------



## sockgirl77

Tilted said:


> You have my continuing sympathy, it's a pretty disgusting situation.
> 
> But on the bright side, if they do eventually 'not disapprove' you, the rest of us can sleep comfortable knowing that you are in no way, shape, or form a threat to our safety. They've taken the time to investigate every part of your character, examine your psychological make-up, run simulations of how you might react in different situations, and determine with near certainty that you will never use your newly acquired regulated firearm in a manner detrimental to society. Heck, if you ever are charged with a violent crime involving this weapon, your lawyer will probably be able to get the charges dismissed based on the MSP's exhaustive vetting of your character and your potential to do violence with this firearm. They've basically already proven that you aren't guilty of any crime you may be accused of in the future. So that's the upside of the long wait.



 Okay.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I think it is about getting a background check within that 7 day period. If the checks are taking longer than 7 days than you would potentially give a weapon to someone who is not "legally" supposed to have it (because no check has been done) on the 8th day. That's my take on it.


----------



## StadEMS3

sockgirl77 said:


> 78 days. Today isn't Monday.



Geez... when I bought my hand gun last October it took 7 days to get approved. This is ridiculous, there has got to be some kinda political BS going on besides just the shear amount of applications. I was thinking about buying another handgun but I don't know if I want to spend several hundred dollars for it to sit at an FFL.  

My outta state friend laughed and told me it would be quicker to move out of MD, buy a house, buy a gun, get it approved, sell the house and move back to MD (you're a dumb a$$ to move back!).


----------



## sockgirl77

The review dates are up to 3/4. Mine is in waiting to be reviewed by a sworn officer because the hired contractors cannot perform the extensive reviews.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Tilted said:


> In all seriousness though, I ask for insight from anyone that might be able to offer it. I've read the relevant portions of Maryland's Public Safety Article. It's pretty clear, a licensee has to wait 7 days (after submitting an application) before releasing a regulated firearm to the customer. I can find nothing in the law that suggest they would be doing something wrong by releasing it after that 7 days is up - nothing about it being their responsibility to recover it if the application later comes back disapproved (which I'm aware that the MSP has suggested to a particular seller that they would have to do). In fact, it would be a violation of the law for the MSP to return an application as disapproved after the 7 day time limit. The law doesn't provide any punishment for that violation, as far as I noticed, but it does say that if the MSP (i.e. _"the Secretary"_) disapproves an application, it has to notify the licensee within 7 days of the application being submitted.
> 
> Now I get that there's the law on the one hand and there's the reality of what the MSP can get away with on the other. I'm aware that those things may not align as well as they should. There's also the law on the one hand and, on the other, the real world in which a licensee may fear some kind of liability even though they fully complied with the law and where they may fear drawing the ire of the MSP for, again, complying with the law but not accommodating the MSP's own failure to comply with the law (i.e by releasing a regulated firearm after 7 days but before the MSP returns a disapproved application.
> 
> So, here are my questions. Am I reading the law wrong? Is the MSP not _required_ by the law to return a disapproval within 7 days? And if I'm not wrong on that point, is there any legal authority that justifies their untimely return of disapproved applications or supports the suggestion that licensees are doing something wrong or taking a risk in releasing regulated firearms after 7 days? Now that I've thought about it a little more, though I understand the position that licensees find themselves in, I think I would refuse to do business with any that indicated they wouldn't release a firearm to me after 7 days. Not that they'd care all that much, they have larger concerns.



ATF law says they can give it back on day 8 also.

MSI is filing a suit with the MSP.


----------



## StadEMS3

The check should be good for a *minimum* of 1 year, 3 at best. It's BS that each time you buy a "regulated" firearm you got to go through this check.

I'm a federal agent with very high clearences, retired military that had a Yankee White and still have to go through this waiting game. I do have an NCIC system in my office and can run my own background check in 30 seconds. Maybe if I print it out and show it to them I can go to the head of the line? 

I do think they should have an express lane for certain credentialed people though. :shrug:


----------



## Tilted

StadEMS3 said:


> The check should be good for a *minimum* of 1 year, 3 at best. It's BS that each time you buy a "regulated" firearm you got to go through this check.
> 
> I'm a federal agent with very high clearences, retired military that had a Yankee White and still have to go through this waiting game. I do have an NCIC system in my office and can run my own background check in 30 seconds. Maybe if I print it out and show it to them I can go to the head of the line?
> 
> *I do think they should have an express lane for certain credentialed people though.* :shrug:



I agree, it should be for all of the 'credentialed' people specifically referred to in the Constitution as having special rights. To wit, the _"people"_ mentioned in the Second Amendment and the _"citizens of the United States"_ mentioned in the second sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment. Those special people, and only those special people, should enjoy the benefit of their special status, which is to say that various governments shouldn't presume the authority to decide whether they're allowed to acquire a firearm, under what conditions they're allowed to acquire a firearm, when they're allowed to acquire a firearm, or what firearm they're allowed to acquire.


----------



## itsbob

StadEMS3 said:


> Geez... when I bought my hand gun last October it took 7 days to get approved. This is ridiculous, there has got to be some kinda political BS going on besides just the shear amount of applications. I was thinking about buying another handgun but I don't know if I want to spend several hundred dollars for it to sit at an FFL.
> 
> My outta state friend laughed and told me it would be quicker to move out of MD, buy a house, buy a gun, get it approved, sell the house and move back to MD (you're a dumb a$$ to move back!).



Just get a PO Box, and a driver's license.


----------



## Ken King

Tilted said:


> In all seriousness though, I ask for insight from anyone that might be able to offer it. I've read the relevant portions of Maryland's Public Safety Article. It's pretty clear, a licensee has to wait 7 days (after submitting an application) before releasing a regulated firearm to the customer. I can find nothing in the law that suggest they would be doing something wrong by releasing it after that 7 days is up - nothing about it being their responsibility to recover it if the application later comes back disapproved (which I'm aware that the MSP has suggested to a particular seller that they would have to do). In fact, it would be a violation of the law for the MSP to return an application as disapproved after the 7 day time limit. The law doesn't provide any punishment for that violation, as far as I noticed, but it does say that if the MSP (i.e. _"the Secretary"_) disapproves an application, it has to notify the licensee within 7 days of the application being submitted.
> 
> Now I get that there's the law on the one hand and there's the reality of what the MSP can get away with on the other. I'm aware that those things may not align as well as they should. There's also the law on the one hand and, on the other, the real world in which a licensee may fear some kind of liability even though they fully complied with the law and where they may fear drawing the ire of the MSP for, again, complying with the law but not accommodating the MSP's own failure to comply with the law (i.e by releasing a regulated firearm after 7 days but before the MSP returns a disapproved application.
> 
> So, here are my questions. Am I reading the law wrong? Is the MSP not _required_ by the law to return a disapproval within 7 days? And if I'm not wrong on that point, is there any legal authority that justifies their untimely return of disapproved applications or supports the suggestion that licensees are doing something wrong or taking a risk in releasing regulated firearms after 7 days? Now that I've thought about it a little more, though I understand the position that licensees find themselves in, I think I would refuse to do business with any that indicated they wouldn't release a firearm to me after 7 days. Not that they'd care all that much, they have larger concerns.


Don't know if this is insight or not, but as the MSP is the approval agency for Regulated Firearms Dealer licenses and renewals would you, if you were a dealer, risk having your renewal delayed or denied because you followed the letter of the law instead of waiting for the MSP decision on a still under review purchase approval?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

The wait has started again for me today.  I do like revolvers...


----------



## mamatutu

I am just glad that my husband bought additional weapons last Sept. before the election because he saw the writing on the wall.  No wait, no muss, no fuss.  I get angry when I read about the wait that other forumites are going through, just to protect themselves, or just to have for hunting or recreation.  It just isn't right, but I don't have to say that; there has been plenty of discussion here on the attempt to sabotage the 2nd Amendment.  I hope all that are waiting, soon get the weapons that they are still awaiting.


----------



## ZARA

StadEMS3 said:


> The check should be good for a *minimum* of 1 year, 3 at best. It's BS that each time you buy a "regulated" firearm you got to go through this check.
> 
> I'm a federal agent with very high clearences, retired military that had a Yankee White and still have to go through this waiting game. I do have an NCIC system in my office and can run my own background check in 30 seconds. Maybe if I print it out and show it to them I can go to the head of the line?
> 
> I do think they should have an express lane for certain credentialed people though. :shrug:



I agree. I don't understand why someone that has Gov't Security Clearance and is cleared through the ATF to handle ordinance and explosives should have to wait 3 months for a background check on a damn handgun. I can guarantee the back ground checks for the Clearance and the explosives were a hell of a lot more in-depth than the one for the handgun.


----------



## smilin

Being cynical here, but a thought. It's been such a long time that I don't remember how I paid for the background check, however:

"The Maryland State Police Licensing Division is dedicated to keeping our Regulated Firearms Dealers better informed regarding the progress being made with respect to the processing of the _*54,108 *_Maryland State Police Application and Affidavit to Purchase a Regulated Firearm forms."

Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division

I believe the not so Free State has found a new profit center!
One of my other license fee has doubled in price in two years...

Now, where is my approved application?


----------



## sockgirl77

Day 80.


----------



## Midnightrider

sockgirl77 said:


> Day 80.



ninja please, i am on about day 90, and thats with the MSP telling me that i was done and being faxed on may 3


----------



## bulldog

sockgirl77 said:


> Day 80.



ABSOLUTELY nothing official, but there is some chatter elsewhere that MSP notified MLFDA (MD licenced firearms dealers association) yesterday that they could start releasing on the 8th day.

1. Not sure if true
2. Not sure if all dealers are members of MLFDA
3. If true, not sure if MLFDA has gotten this information to members yet
4. Hope it's true


----------



## Chris0nllyn

bulldog said:


> ABSOLUTELY nothing official, but there is some chatter elsewhere that MSP notified MLFDA (MD licenced firearms dealers association) yesterday that they could start releasing on the 8th day.
> 
> 1. Not sure if true
> 2. Not sure if all dealers are members of MLFDA
> 3. If true, not sure if MLFDA has gotten this information to members yet
> 4. Hope it's true



I believe a few FFLs are releasing on day 8.


----------



## sockgirl77

bulldog said:


> ABSOLUTELY nothing official, but there is some chatter elsewhere that MSP notified MLFDA (MD licenced firearms dealers association) yesterday that they could start releasing on the 8th day.
> 
> 1. Not sure if true
> 2. Not sure if all dealers are members of MLFDA
> 3. If true, not sure if MLFDA has gotten this information to members yet
> 4. Hope it's true



They've always had the option to release on the 8th day, they just haven't done it.


----------



## smilin

While waiting for the paperwork to get done I came across this great informative pamphlet put out by MSI. You can print it out as a reminder of how wonderful our O'Malley led Free State government is....

http://marylandshallissue.org/share/SafetyActFAQ.pdf


Just make sure you hide it from any out of state gun owners - unless they need a good laugh.


----------



## ZARA

bulldog said:


> ABSOLUTELY nothing official, but there is some chatter elsewhere that MSP notified MLFDA (MD licenced firearms dealers association) yesterday that they could start releasing on the 8th day.
> 
> 1. Not sure if true
> 2. Not sure if all dealers are members of MLFDA
> 3. If true, not sure if MLFDA has gotten this information to members yet
> 4. Hope it's true



Yes, FFL can release on the 8th day BUT they are responsible for getting the gun back if the app is "Not Approved." At least that's the discussion I had with one of the guys at Bait and Tackle when I was there last month (maybe month before?)


----------



## bulldog

Chris0nllyn said:


> I believe a few FFLs are releasing on day 8.



Yes, a few have been, but many have not due to the fear or getting shat on by MSP. If this action is true, it relieves them of that fear and hopefully more, or better yet all, will be willing to no release on day 8.



sockgirl77 said:


> They've always had the option to release on the 8th day, they just haven't done it.



See above.



ZARA said:


> Yes, FFL can release on the 8th day BUT they are responsible for getting the gun back if the app is "Not Approved." At least that's the discussion I had with one of the guys at Bait and Tackle when I was there last month (maybe month before?)



I call :BS: on the FFL being told that they would have to get the bun back.  MSP has known all along that FFLs could release guns on day 8 and if, through their (MSP) inability to process applications as required, someone received a gun and then came back as not approved, MSP would have to retrieve that gun, IMO.


----------



## ZARA

bulldog said:


> I call :BS: on the FFL being told that they would have to get the bun back.  MSP has known all along that FFLs could release guns on day 8 and if, through their (MSP) inability to process applications as required, someone received a gun and then came back as not approved, MSP would have to retrieve that gun, IMO.



:shrug: No clue, just repeating what I was told.


----------



## sockgirl77

Day 81.


----------



## czygvtwkr

bulldog said:


> Yes, a few have been, but many have not due to the fear or getting shat on by MSP. If this action is true, it relieves them of that fear and hopefully more, or better yet all, will be willing to no release on day 8.
> 
> See above.
> 
> I call :BS: on the FFL being told that they would have to get the bun back.  MSP has known all along that FFLs could release guns on day 8 and if, through their (MSP) inability to process applications as required, someone received a gun and then came back as not approved, MSP would have to retrieve that gun, IMO.



Not sure why I understand,  but why does an out of state FFL care?


----------



## bulldog

czygvtwkr said:


> Not sure why I understand,  but why does an out of state FFL care?



I'm talking about local FFLs only.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

sockgirl77 said:


> Day 81.



Out of curiosity, did you put your SSN on the application?

A few other who have gone to "further review for common name" have not been putting their SSN on the application.

If it makes you feel better, these are the databases they have to search....if you pass this to get a gun, you can rest assured your record is clean.

Department of Mental Health and Hygene (DHMH)

National Instant Check System (NICS) - Pursuant to Federal law, NICS will only be queried for dealer sales of regulated firearms

National Crime Information Center (NCIC) Interstate Identification Index

NCIC Protection Order File

NCIC warrant check

NCIC stolen firearm check

Maryland Interagency Law Enforcement System (MILES) Civil Warrant/Order File

Maryland Criminal Justice Information System (CJIS) - Identification Index System

Maryland Computerized Criminal History (CCH) On-Line

Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration (MVA)

Maryland Automated Firearms Services System (MAFSS)

Judicial Information System District Court of Maryland Civil System Inquiry and Update Menu

Judicial Information System District Court of Maryland Criminal System Inquiry

Judicial Information System District Court of Maryland Warrant System Menu

Maryland Division of Department of Parole and Probation

Maryland Department of Juvenile Services (ASSIST) database


----------



## sockgirl77

Chris0nllyn said:


> Out of curiosity, did you put your SSN on the application?
> 
> A few other who have gone to "further review for common name" have not been putting their SSN on the application.
> 
> If it makes you feel better, these are the databases they have to search....if you pass this to get a gun, you can rest assured your record is clean.
> 
> Department of Mental Health and Hygene (DHMH)
> 
> National Instant Check System (NICS) - Pursuant to Federal law, NICS will only be queried for dealer sales of regulated firearms
> 
> National Crime Information Center (NCIC) Interstate Identification Index
> 
> NCIC Protection Order File
> 
> NCIC warrant check
> 
> NCIC stolen firearm check
> 
> Maryland Interagency Law Enforcement System (MILES) Civil Warrant/Order File
> 
> Maryland Criminal Justice Information System (CJIS) - Identification Index System
> 
> Maryland Computerized Criminal History (CCH) On-Line
> 
> Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration (MVA)
> 
> Maryland Automated Firearms Services System (MAFSS)
> 
> Judicial Information System District Court of Maryland Civil System Inquiry and Update Menu
> 
> Judicial Information System District Court of Maryland Criminal System Inquiry
> 
> Judicial Information System District Court of Maryland Warrant System Menu
> 
> Maryland Division of Department of Parole and Probation
> 
> Maryland Department of Juvenile Services (ASSIST) database



Yes, I did. I have 2 security clearances now. One for my job on base and the other for another organization. MSP signed off on the 2nd one. So, this is all a complete crock of shiat. Oh and my name is FAR from common.


----------



## ZARA

Chris0nllyn said:


> Out of curiosity, did you put your SSN on the application?
> 
> A few other who have gone to "further review for common name" have not been putting their SSN on the application.
> 
> If it makes you feel better, these are the databases they have to search....if you pass this to get a gun, you can rest assured your record is clean.



This is a very good point. I didn't even think of this. Hubs and I both placed our SSN on our applications.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

sockgirl77 said:


> Yes, I did. I have 2 security clearances now. One for my job on base and the other for another organization. MSP signed off on the 2nd one. So, this is all a complete crock of shiat. Oh and my name is FAR from common.





It sure is.

Just wondering.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Got my two today. Happy camper. Now waiting to bring the .357 home.


----------



## Gilligan

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Got my two today. Happy camper. Now waiting to bring the .357 home.



How many days since your paperwork went in?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Dunno. March something. I'm sure I won't see my s&w until August.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

If I'm lucky.


----------



## PsyOps

sockgirl77 said:


> Yes, I did. I have 2 security clearances now. One for my job on base and the other for another organization. MSP signed off on the 2nd one. So, this is all a complete crock of shiat. Oh and my name is FAR from common.



When I got my handgun my FFL told me having a security clearance can speed the process up.  The process for obtaining a TS is far more in-depth than a firearm background check.  So that came back pretty fast.  When I bought my AR a different guy told me it made no difference at all.

But they did say leaving your SSN off the forms will delay the process.  It's been almost a month wait for my AR - so far.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I *think* most thinks are more in depth than the msp check. I put my SS on everything.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Day 8 release by MSP is a go.


----------



## Gilligan

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Day 8 release by MSP is a go.



??  What?


----------



## itsbob

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Day 8 release by MSP is a go.



Can you give a little more info?


----------



## Midnightrider

Gilligan said:


> ??  What?



According to threads on mdshooters the MSP sent a fax to FFLs indicating they can release on day 8 with certain provisions. We will see have to wait to see how many actually do it.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Yep. MSP will have to retrieve weapon if person fails check. A separate note indicating that the weapon is a 8th day release must be sent as well.


----------



## GURPS

StadEMS3 said:


> ... retired military that had a Yankee White




a what ?


----------



## GURPS

itsbob said:


> Just get a PO Box, and a driver's license.





how does that work ?


I thought about buying a 1/2 acre in no where VA. for $ 5000 and change my residency ....


yeah I guess then I would be getting a PO Box ...... but if you don't own property :shrug:


----------



## DoWhat

GURPS said:


> a what ?



You don't have the need to know.


----------



## NextJen

I thought that handguns were sent off with the paperwork to be 'test fired' so that MSP would have a casing on file.  When does the gun get sent back to the FFL/dealer/shop you purchased from? Is there any hold up in that process happening, or is it all just the background checks taking so long?


----------



## smilin

NextJen said:


> I thought that handguns were sent off with the paperwork to be 'test fired' so that MSP would have a casing on file.  When does the gun get sent back to the FFL/dealer/shop you purchased from? Is there any hold up in that process happening, or is it all just the background checks taking so long?



Most manufacturers provide a fired casing.


----------



## abcxyz

itsbob said:


> Just get a PO Box, and a driver's license.



The UPS Store gives you a real street address. If you get a PO Box, use the address of the post office and then Unit ## (what ever your PO Box number is). 

Example for the USPS at the mall:

Fred Fruitloop
11110 Mall Circle
Unit 555
Waldorf, MD 20603


----------



## StadEMS3

GURPS said:


> a what ?



Yankee White= addtional clearence to top secret for Presidential access.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

NextJen said:


> I thought that handguns were sent off with the paperwork to be 'test fired' so that MSP would have a casing on file.  When does the gun get sent back to the FFL/dealer/shop you purchased from? Is there any hold up in that process happening, or is it all just the background checks taking so long?



A lot of manufactures don't provide, some do. Even .22's need to be shot now....they have to be fired at an authorized location (separate license), then weapon is given back to FFL with shot shell. With the amount of guns being sold there is an increase of weapons needing to be shot but it is not even close to the MSP wait.


----------



## bulldog

Gilligan said:


> ??  What?



This statement was part of the Weekly Update that MSP sent to FFLs:

"We have received requests for information from dealers regarding the release of Regulated firearms on the 8th day. These are applications in which guns are released prior to receiving a NICS number. Dealers releasing regulated firearms on the 8th day, that are on the fax program, will submit the MSP Copy of the Maryland State Police Application and Affidavit to Purchase a Regulated Firearm with a notice attached to each application with the following statement, “Eighth day release of a regulated firearm.” It is imperative that the written notice of an “Eighth day release” be attached, not written on the actual application to ensure that we process them correctly. "

Whether they do or don't is still up to them. I think I know who you use and believe you'd be good to go.



NextJen said:


> I thought that handguns were sent off with the paperwork to be 'test fired' so that MSP would have a casing on file.  When does the gun get sent back to the FFL/dealer/shop you purchased from? Is there any hold up in that process happening, or is it all just the background checks taking so long?



No, guns are not sent to MSP for test firing. If they come without a spent shell casing, the FFL must find a way to provide one to MSP. A lot of the FFLs, but virtue of the type of FFL they hold can do the firing themselves so it's not really that big of a deal.


----------



## Gilligan

bulldog said:


> No, guns are not sent to MSP for test firing. If they come without a spent shell casing, the FFL must find a way to provide one to MSP. A lot of the FFLs, but virtue of the type of FFL they hold *can do the firing themselves so it's not really that big of a deal.*



That. I already provided my FFL with a round for him to fire through the "unusual" caliber handgun that I've been waiting on MSP approval for about 2 months now. I knew he didn't have any ...to sell or otherwise.


----------



## sockgirl77

84 days.


----------



## Tilted

Ken King said:


> Don't know if this is insight or not, but as the MSP is the approval agency for Regulated Firearms Dealer licenses and renewals would you, if you were a dealer, risk having your renewal delayed or denied because you followed the letter of the law instead of waiting for the MSP decision on a still under review purchase approval?



That's the kind of thing I was referring to that licensees have to consider. The government (e.g. to include individual police officers or the MSP in general) has considerable leverage that it can usually, up to a point, get away with using improperly.


----------



## Tilted

bulldog said:


> I call :BS: on the FFL being told that they would have to get the bun back.  MSP has known all along that FFLs could release guns on day 8 and if, through their (MSP) inability to process applications as required, someone received a gun and then came back as not approved, MSP would have to retrieve that gun, IMO.



I'm aware of a particular instance when a seller (in this case it wasn't a current FFL holder, but a private seller) was told by the contact at the MSP that they, the seller, would have to retrieve the transferred firearm themselves if the MSP eventually informed them that the application was disapproved. This was a number of years ago. The seller checked with the MSP to see if the application had been denied. When the MSP contact said it hadn't yet, the seller, knowing the law, asked for confirmation that they could go ahead and transfer the firearm. The MSP told them that they could not. Pressed on that point, the MSP told the seller that they would have to retrieve the firearm if the application came back denied. I don't recall the words that were used, but the MSP suggested that they would be in trouble if they weren't able to.

I believe the MSP was flat wrong in that case (and my guess would be that it knew that), but that doesn't change the reality that it can try to intimidate people into doing or not doing what it wants. The point being, I have no trouble believing that the MSP has at times told FFL holders that they would have to retrieve firearms if disapproved applications came back late.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

NextJen said:


> I thought that handguns were sent off with the paperwork to be 'test fired' so that MSP would have a casing on file.  When does the gun get sent back to the FFL/dealer/shop you purchased from? Is there any hold up in that process happening, or is it all just the background checks taking so long?



No, the FFL test fires it (if the mfr doesn't send a casing) and sends the casing to MSP with the paperwork.

The gun stays at the FFL under lock and key until the MSP saysd they can release it.


----------



## NextJen

Thanks everyone for clearing this up for me. I wasn't sure how it worked. 

Btw, it's day 30 for me.


----------



## dustin

So (regarding the 8th day change) basically MSP has admitted publicly that their background check process is not required.

Because the 1% that would actually fail their background check are probably providing false information on the ATF and MD forms anyways.


----------



## sockgirl77

dustin said:


> So (regarding the 8th day change) basically MSP has admitted publicly that their background check process is not required.
> 
> Because the 1% that would actually fail their background check are probably providing false information on the ATF and MD forms anyways.



Yet, none of the FFLs that we deal with will release our guns.


----------



## smilin

sockgirl77 said:


> Yet, none of the FFLs that we deal with will release our guns.




This IS the MD Government we are dealing with after all....not one the most efficient organizations around.


----------



## bulldog

dustin said:


> So (regarding the 8th day change) basically MSP has admitted publicly that their background check process is not required.
> 
> Because the 1% that would actually fail their background check are probably providing false information on the ATF and MD forms anyways.



No, they are admitting that they are behind schedule on what the law currently allows them and they are trying to avoid the court battle they are currently facing.



sockgirl77 said:


> Yet, none of the FFLs that we deal with will release our guns.



Time to get a new FFL, says I.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

dustin said:


> So (regarding the 8th day change) basically MSP has admitted publicly that their background check process is not required.
> 
> Because the 1% that would actually fail their background check are probably providing false information on the ATF and MD forms anyways.



I doubt they are saying that.

They moer or less are saying, "we don't want to go to court, because we know we are taking for-ev-er, so now we'll finally do what ATF regulations tell us to".


----------



## sockgirl77

bulldog said:


> No, they are admitting that they are behind schedule on what the law currently allows them and they are trying to avoid the court battle they are currently facing.
> 
> 
> 
> Time to get a new FFL, says I.



I am happy with the FFL that I've chosen. The bf has guns at two different ones. Neither will release them and from what I'm hearing, damn near nobody will...even with this letter being released.


----------



## Ken King

sockgirl77 said:


> I am happy with the FFL that I've chosen. The bf has guns at two different ones. Neither will release them and from what I'm hearing, damn near nobody will...even with this letter being released.


It's MD Firearm Dealer License renewal season, I wouldn't expect any of them to place their license at risk.


----------



## Gilligan

sockgirl77 said:


> Neither will release them and from what I'm hearing, damn near nobody will...even with this letter being released.



I'm not even going to add to my dealer's stress level and even ask him if he'd release to me. I'm not in the slightest hurry. I have plenty of ordnance on hand already.

But I feel for those who are really wanting their new pieces and have been waiting so darned long.


----------



## Midnightrider

Gilligan said:


> I'm not even going to add to my dealer's stress level and even ask him if he'd release to me. I'm not in the slightest hurry. I have plenty of ordnance on hand already.
> 
> But I feel for those who are really wanting their new pieces and have been waiting so darned long.



If bob is your buddy you are in luck, he released a statement on the bobs sunoco MDS forum saying come get your guns if they have been there longer than 7 days. He says spread the word



> To all of our customers.  If you are currently waiting for us to call you your wait is over.  If it has been more than 7 days from that date that you made application to purchase your firearm you may now pickup that firearm. We have an additional form for you to sign and you're done. Please pass the word on as we are trying notify all of our customers. One last thing, we close at 8PM during the week so please do not show up at 7:45. My employees have families too!


----------



## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> If bob is your buddy you are in luck, he released a statement on the bobs sunoco MDS forum saying come get your guns if they have been there longer than 7 days. He says spread the word



Well I'll be darned.  Thanks.

Edit: Confirmed. Sweet.


----------



## Midnightrider

Gilligan said:


> Well I'll be darned.  Thanks.
> 
> Edit: Confirmed. Sweet.



I imagine its going to be a madhouse over there for the next week or so. I have to give him credit for making an open statement about his policy.


----------



## itsbob

sockgirl77 said:


> Yet, none of the FFLs that we deal with will release our guns.



Which ffls?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Mine is. I'm curious why yours wouldn't.


----------



## bulldog

sockgirl77 said:


> Yet, none of the FFLs that we deal with will release our guns.



The list of those who are releasing is growing daily as they receive updated information about the process. It may be worth checking back with them o, if you post their name here I can tell you if they are now on the "yes" list.


----------



## itsbob

bulldog said:


> The list of those who are releasing is growing daily as they receive updated information about the process. It may be worth checking back with them o, if you post their name here I can tell you if they are now on the "yes" list.



Cromwell's Firearms.. 

Thanks!~


----------



## bulldog

itsbob said:


> Cromwell's Firearms..
> 
> Thanks!~



He is not on either list, yet. I'll try to call him later and find out what his position is. Until then, here is the most recent status list:

*Dealers Releasing without MSP 77R Return:
Those with a question mark I am unsure of their requirements for release*
2 A Sales & Supplies, Jessup: None
A1 Uniform Sales Company, Brentwood: Previous "ND" or DC Letter
Baltimore's Best Pawn, Finksburg: DC Letter or Previous "ND"
Bank Gun & Pawn, Havre de Grace:?
Barts Sports World, Glen Burnie: None
Bobs Sunoco, Callaway: Sign a Waiver
Bollinger Gunsmithing and Sales, Taneytown: None
Constitutional Firearms, Laurel: None
Duffy's Gun Room, Sparks: Own NICS
Engage Armament, Rockville: Previous "ND" or DC Letter
Keystone Sporting Goods, Hagerstown: None
J&K Pawn, Havre De Grace: None
On Target, Severn: Sign a Waiver
Shooters Discount, Mt Airy: Owners Discretion
South Carroll Sporting Goods: None
Sure Shot Firearms and Tactical, Pasadena: Previous "ND"

*Dealers Waiting for MSP 77R:*
3 R Gun Shop, Hagerstown
A & D Pawn Shop, Glen Burnie
All Pawn, White Plains
Atlantic Guns, Rockville/Silver Spring: Change pending receipt of "letter"?
Anglers Sport Center Ltd, Annapolis
Bass Pro Shops, Hanover
Blue Fins, Dundalk: Wants NICS #, official word from ATF and MSP
Continental Arms, Timonium
Clyde's Sport Shop, Halethorpe: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
Freestate Gun Range, White Marsh: Will not release without NICS, approval from MSP and ATF
Gander Mountain, Salisbury
Gun Shack, Mt Airy
Gun Shop, Essex
Gunrunners, Frederick
Hendershots Hagerstown: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
Horst & McCann Inc, Bel Air: Solid NO
Just Guns Inc, Parkville
Maryland Small Arms Range, Upper Marlboro
Mountain View Gunsmithing LLC, Frederick: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
NSK Sales, Boring
Pasadena Pawn and Gun, Pasadena
Realco Guns, Forestville
Scotts, Glen Burnie: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
Tackle Box, Lexington Park
Target Acquired, Waldorf
West Carroll Arms, New Windsor


----------



## sockgirl77

itsbob said:


> Cromwell's Firearms..
> 
> Thanks!~



Cromwell has one of the bf's guns. I know as of Friday he was not releasing on the 8th day. Tackle Box has another of his. All Pawn has mine. We're making calls to all 3 today. All Pawn has been great and Cromwell is a hell of a guy. Cromwell could not order my gun and that's the only reason that I didn't go through him. Tackle Box is another story. We will not ever go through them for anything again. They are unorganized and not very pleasant to deal with. Not to mention that he's purchased 2 guns from them in the past year or so that have been damaged. Not sure if it is the company that they got them from or something that happened at their shop, but the whole process was a PITA.


----------



## sockgirl77

bulldog said:


> He is not on either list, yet. I'll try to call him later and find out what his position is. Until then, here is the most recent status list:
> 
> *Dealers Releasing without MSP 77R Return:
> Those with a question mark I am unsure of their requirements for release*
> 2 A Sales & Supplies, Jessup: None
> A1 Uniform Sales Company, Brentwood: Previous "ND" or DC Letter
> Baltimore's Best Pawn, Finksburg: DC Letter or Previous "ND"
> Bank Gun & Pawn, Havre de Grace:?
> Barts Sports World, Glen Burnie: None
> Bobs Sunoco, Callaway: Sign a Waiver
> Bollinger Gunsmithing and Sales, Taneytown: None
> Constitutional Firearms, Laurel: None
> Duffy's Gun Room, Sparks: Own NICS
> Engage Armament, Rockville: Previous "ND" or DC Letter
> Keystone Sporting Goods, Hagerstown: None
> J&K Pawn, Havre De Grace: None
> On Target, Severn: Sign a Waiver
> Shooters Discount, Mt Airy: Owners Discretion
> South Carroll Sporting Goods: None
> Sure Shot Firearms and Tactical, Pasadena: Previous "ND"
> 
> *Dealers Waiting for MSP 77R:*
> 3 R Gun Shop, Hagerstown
> A & D Pawn Shop, Glen Burnie
> All Pawn, White PlainsAtlantic Guns, Rockville/Silver Spring: Change pending receipt of "letter"?
> Anglers Sport Center Ltd, Annapolis
> Bass Pro Shops, Hanover
> Blue Fins, Dundalk: Wants NICS #, official word from ATF and MSP
> Continental Arms, Timonium
> Clyde's Sport Shop, Halethorpe: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> Freestate Gun Range, White Marsh: Will not release without NICS, approval from MSP and ATF
> Gander Mountain, Salisbury
> Gun Shack, Mt Airy
> Gun Shop, Essex
> Gunrunners, Frederick
> Hendershots Hagerstown: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> Horst & McCann Inc, Bel Air: Solid NO
> Just Guns Inc, Parkville
> Maryland Small Arms Range, Upper Marlboro
> Mountain View Gunsmithing LLC, Frederick: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> NSK Sales, Boring
> Pasadena Pawn and Gun, Pasadena
> Realco Guns, Forestville
> Scotts, Glen Burnie: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> Tackle Box, Lexington ParkTarget Acquired, Waldorf
> West Carroll Arms, New Windsor






Day 85.


----------



## ZARA

sockgirl77 said:


> Cromwell has one of the bf's guns. I know as of Friday he was not releasing on the 8th day. Tackle Box has another of his. All Pawn has mine. We're making calls to all 3 today. All Pawn has been great and Cromwell is a hell of a guy. Cromwell could not order my gun and that's the only reason that I didn't go through him. Tackle Box is another story. We will not ever go through them for anything again. They are unorganized and not very pleasant to deal with. Not to mention that he's purchased 2 guns from them in the past year or so that have been damaged. Not sure if it is the company that they got them from or something that happened at their shop, but the whole process was a PITA.



We order and purchase our guns via GunBroker.com and then have them shipped to our FFL. GunBroker has great prices and it's worth looking into if you don't want to pay out the wazoo for local guns.


----------



## smilin

bulldog said:


> He is not on either list, yet. I'll try to call him later and find out what his position is. Until then, here is the most recent status list:
> 
> *Dealers Releasing without MSP 77R Return:
> Those with a question mark I am unsure of their requirements for release*
> 2 A Sales & Supplies, Jessup: None
> A1 Uniform Sales Company, Brentwood: Previous "ND" or DC Letter
> Baltimore's Best Pawn, Finksburg: DC Letter or Previous "ND"
> Bank Gun & Pawn, Havre de Grace:?
> Barts Sports World, Glen Burnie: None
> Bobs Sunoco, Callaway: Sign a Waiver
> Bollinger Gunsmithing and Sales, Taneytown: None
> Constitutional Firearms, Laurel: None
> Duffy's Gun Room, Sparks: Own NICS
> Engage Armament, Rockville: Previous "ND" or DC Letter
> Keystone Sporting Goods, Hagerstown: None
> J&K Pawn, Havre De Grace: None
> On Target, Severn: Sign a Waiver
> Shooters Discount, Mt Airy: Owners Discretion
> South Carroll Sporting Goods: None
> Sure Shot Firearms and Tactical, Pasadena: Previous "ND"
> 
> *Dealers Waiting for MSP 77R:*
> 3 R Gun Shop, Hagerstown
> A & D Pawn Shop, Glen Burnie
> All Pawn, White Plains
> Atlantic Guns, Rockville/Silver Spring: Change pending receipt of "letter"?
> Anglers Sport Center Ltd, Annapolis
> Bass Pro Shops, Hanover
> Blue Fins, Dundalk: Wants NICS #, official word from ATF and MSP
> Continental Arms, Timonium
> Clyde's Sport Shop, Halethorpe: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> Freestate Gun Range, White Marsh: Will not release without NICS, approval from MSP and ATF
> Gander Mountain, Salisbury
> Gun Shack, Mt Airy
> Gun Shop, Essex
> Gunrunners, Frederick
> Hendershots Hagerstown: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> Horst & McCann Inc, Bel Air: Solid NO
> Just Guns Inc, Parkville
> Maryland Small Arms Range, Upper Marlboro
> Mountain View Gunsmithing LLC, Frederick: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> NSK Sales, Boring
> Pasadena Pawn and Gun, Pasadena
> Realco Guns, Forestville
> Scotts, Glen Burnie: Change Pending Clarification with MSP, ATF, and Attorney
> Tackle Box, Lexington Park
> Target Acquired, Waldorf
> West Carroll Arms, New Windsor



Being that we are in Maryland, the state which every young lawyer knows is the Land of Peasants being Sued by somebody, I will bet the first person the FFLs called about the 8 day release were their attorneys.
They probably differed in their opinions, but by the looks of it a majority told their clients that the _only_ way to avoid any liability, is not to release anything until they received a written approval.


----------



## Gilligan

ZARA said:


> We order and purchase our guns via GunBroker.com and then have them shipped to our FFL. GunBroker has great prices and it's worth looking into if you don't want to pay out the wazoo for local guns.



So do we..generally. But I have to give Bob (Bob's Sunoco) credit; he's sold me some at very competitive prices.


----------



## sockgirl77

ZARA said:


> We order and purchase our guns via GunBroker.com and then have them shipped to our FFL. GunBroker has great prices and it's worth looking into if you don't want to pay out the wazoo for local guns.



I checked there. Prices ranged from $360-450 for my gun. I got mine in VA for $428 total, including the transfer fees. Even if I had gotten it through Gun Broker, I'd still be on this obnoxious wait list.


----------



## ZARA

sockgirl77 said:


> I'd still be on this obnoxious wait list.


True. 

When I was checking around for the gun I wanted, all the local places had it for 450+. I got mine for 300 and that included FFL fees. We saved an additional 300 buying my husband's on GunBroker. If the local guys had wanted to haggle, we could have made some deals, but they didn't want to haggle. Maybe it's because I'm a girl?


----------



## sockgirl77

ZARA said:


> True.
> 
> When I was checking around for the gun I wanted, all the local places had it for 450+. I got mine for 300 and that included FFL fees. We saved an additional 300 buying my husband's on GunBroker. If the local guys had wanted to haggle, we could have made some deals, but they didn't want to haggle. Maybe it's because I'm a girl?



I'm a girl and I had no problem haggling a decent price on my gun. The guys at Big Dogs in King George were great They thought I was a hoot when I went in asking about a pink gun that I HAD to have and if they had any matching accessories.


----------



## Midnightrider

itsbob said:


> Cromwell's Firearms..
> 
> Thanks!~



the wife spoke to them yesterday, they are still working up their procedure to release. Check with them at the end of the week to see if they have it worked out.


----------



## Gilligan

Stopped by this morning and took possession of the one they put the paperwork in for back the first week of April. Signed a simple waiver and off I went.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Gilligan said:


> Stopped by this morning and took possession of the one they put the paperwork in for back the first week of April. Signed a simple waiver and off I went.



Well, what'd ya get?

I want to get something some kinda bad...my better half has other plans.

Who needs a new  house anyway?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I can't wait to get my .357 now. When I thought it was going to be 90 days, it was ok. Now that it will be 8 it seems like sooooooooooooooooooooooo long.


----------



## sockgirl77

Chris0nllyn said:


> Well, what'd ya get?
> 
> I want to get something some kinda bad...my better half has other plans.
> 
> Who needs a new  house anyway?



Yeah. I had to tell him which FFLs are releasing on the 8th day now. GDit.


----------



## Gilligan

Chris0nllyn said:


> Well, what'd ya get?



Zastava M57.


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

Gilligan said:


> Zastava M57.



Looks to be a lonnng barrel. I guess I'm just to accustomed to seeing the shorter 1911's.


----------



## Gilligan

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> Looks to be a lonnng barrel. I guess I'm just to accustomed to seeing the shorter 1911's.



I'll take a picture of it laid over my 1911. You'll be surprised. The M57 is essentially a "skinny" 1911 with almost identical profile shape. I'm talking only about the standard 1911, of course, not the 4" barrel versions out these days.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I looked up that pistol. It's nice. Intriguing. May I ask why you got it? Vintage? Availability? I'm assuming it is an older model, hence the questions.


----------



## Gilligan

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> I looked up that pistol. It's nice. Intriguing. May I ask why you got it? Vintage? Availability? I'm assuming it is an older model, hence the questions.



Brand new in box, with accessories. Cheap. Well made. Reliable. Ammo is dirt cheap..a big plus. It's not the only firearm I have that shoots the same 7.62 Tokarev round.

And it handles, for me, as well as my 1911s and that is the biggest plus of all.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Ah. Very nice. I'm also a big fan of the 1911 design (just picked up 2 of them).  Looking forward to the pics.


----------



## Gilligan

here they are...


----------



## b23hqb

Gilligan said:


> here they are...



The horror! The horror!

Why would anyone want TWO of those evil killing machines that can bring down a horse or evil people attempting to hack an innocent person to death on a public street?

The horror! The horror! That every law abiding citizen does not pack one of those whenever they go out in public.

Insanity......


----------



## DoWhat

Gilligan said:


> here they are...



Nice.


----------



## Gilligan

> .... and nhboy like this.



Careful there buckwheat. Baby steps. You peed yourself the last time you got too close to a firearm...remember?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Very nice.


----------



## nutz

Gilligan said:


> here they are...



Multiple assault style weapons in plain view, something that resembles a decision tree, sketchy notes and maybe a map plus a *sniper* autobiography?   Is there a model 92 in your future?


----------



## Gilligan

nutz said:


> Multiple assault style weapons in plain view, something that resembles a decision tree, sketchy notes and maybe a map plus a *sniper* autobiography?   Is there a model 92 in your future?



  I noticed all that after I snapped the pic. It's just the conference table in my office..covered with work stuff and some of the contents of my backpack that I carry on travel (hence Kyl'es autobigraphy.)

Conclude from all of that whatever you wish.


----------



## Gilligan

nutz said:


> something that resembles a decision tree,



That? That is the interwebz trace-back result for tracking down a nefarious and shady character known only as "nhboy". 


Or it might be the control block diagram for one of our ship control systems..


----------



## itsbob

Midnightrider said:


> the wife spoke to them yesterday, they are still working up their procedure to release. Check with them at the end of the week to see if they have it worked out.



Thanks... 

Q


----------



## sockgirl77

Woooooohoooooo!!!!!


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Got gun then?


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Got gun then?



Fax was received today. I'll go pick her up tomorrow!


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Congratulations.


----------



## sockgirl77

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Congratulations.



Thank you.


----------



## ZARA

sockgirl77 said:


> I'll go pick her up tomorrow!



​


----------



## sockgirl77

ZARA said:


> ​



​


----------



## ZARA

sockgirl77 said:


> I'll go pick *her *up tomorrow!



Soo..what did you name her? 
I kept mine simple, her name is Cougar.


----------



## smilin

sockgirl77 said:


> Fax was received today. I'll go pick her up tomorrow!



YAY! 

How long did your 7 day waiting period take?


----------



## sockgirl77

ZARA said:


> Soo..what did you name her?
> I kept mine simple, her name is Cougar.


I've been calling her Pinkie, but I really think that I'm going to go with something different. 


smilin said:


> YAY!
> 
> How long did your 7 day waiting period take?


87 ####ing days!


----------



## General Lee

I've heard there is a class action law suit in Maryland because the waiting period is exceeding the waiting times??


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

General Lee said:


> I've heard there is a class action law suit in Maryland because the _waiting period_ is _exceeding the waiting times_??



The defense's argument will be something like, 'but it's all in the name of public safety.'


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

sockgirl77 said:


> _I've been calling her Pinkie_, but I really think that I'm going to go with something different.



How 'bout, I'msorrywhatwasthat? Or, Goaheadmakemyday.....


----------



## sockgirl77

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> How 'bout, I'msorrywhatwasthat? Or, Goaheadmakemyday.....



Umm...no.


----------



## smilin

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> The defense's argument will be something like, 'but it's all in the name of public safety.'



I know I read this somewhere but out of 52000 checks I think they disallowed 7.

JK  

I wonder what the cost benefit ratio of this superduper MD background check is?


----------



## bohman

Gilligan said:


> Well I'll be darned.  Thanks.
> 
> Edit: Confirmed. *Sweet*.



Isn't it?    I was one of those first-timers you mentioned getting frustrated by the long wait.  I have to give them credit for going ahead with releasing.

One thing I've heard about the FFLs' decision process is that they aren't just limited by what the MSP is (or isn't) telling them.  They also may have an insurance policy that is contingent on getting the Not Disallowed fax before releasing.  Some of them are really over a barrel and losing business as a result, and that's just a shame.


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

smilin said:


> I know I read this somewhere but out of 52000 checks I think they disallowed 7.
> 
> JK
> 
> I wonder what the cost benefit ratio of this superduper MD background check is?



Well, 52,000 background checks X however much the fee is. :shrug:
Question is, where's that money goin'?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

They are buying vintage fax machines.


----------



## itsbob

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> Well, 52,000 background checks X however much the fee is. :shrug:
> Question is, where's that money goin'?



FFL has a transfer fee to get your gun into MD and process it to sell to you.. 

I don't know of any state fee to get the checks done, is it paid for by Tax Payer funds??


----------



## Inkd

itsbob said:


> FFL has a transfer fee to get your gun into MD and process it to sell to you..
> 
> I don't know of any state fee to get the checks done, is it paid for by Tax Payer funds??



I think it's $10.00? 

At least that is what I paid at the Leonardtown MSP barrack when I did the paperwork there for a regulated firearm transfer.


----------



## sockgirl77

Inkd said:


> I think it's $10.00?
> 
> At least that is what I paid at the Leonardtown MSP barrack when I did the paperwork there for a regulated firearm transfer.



I paid $10 to the dealer in VA to transfer it and $25 to the MD FFL.

Here she is...


----------



## Ken King

Inkd said:


> I think it's $10.00?
> 
> At least that is what I paid at the Leonardtown MSP barrack when I did the paperwork there for a regulated firearm transfer.


Wasn't that for the two fingerprint cards that accompany the application ($5 per card)?


----------



## Inkd

Ken King said:


> Wasn't that for the two fingerprint cards that accompany the application ($5 per card)?



I got fingerprint cards for my short barrel rifle application, but didn't do them at the MSP barrack. 

I've done 3 transfers for handguns at the MSP barrack and each time I gave them a $10.00 money order when I filled out the paperwork, I always assumed that was their investigation fee.

As a disclaimer, going to the barrack to get the paperwork done doesn't lessen the wait time or ensure it will be headache free. Out of the 3 transfers I did there, 2 of them got screwed up.


----------



## Inkd

sockgirl77 said:


> I paid $10 to the dealer in VA to transfer it and $25 to the MD FFL.
> 
> Here she is...



NICE!!!!!!!  Glad you got her out of Marylands purgatory...

Do you have anything to feed her?


----------



## sockgirl77

Inkd said:


> NICE!!!!!!!  Glad you got her out of Marylands purgatory...
> 
> Do you have anything to feed her?



Yeah, 2 measly boxes.


----------



## Bay_Kat

sockgirl77 said:


> I paid $10 to the dealer in VA to transfer it and $25 to the MD FFL.
> 
> Here she is...



That's the same one my hubby wanted to buy me at our local Ace Hardware store.  I opted for something else.  It's pretty, but I just didn't want pink.

Glad you finally got it, seems like it's been forever.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

sockgirl77 said:


> Yeah, 2 measly boxes.



That's a .22 right? That's a very very very hard caliber to find. If you see it, get it.


----------



## itsbob

sockgirl77 said:


> Umm...no.



Tuscadero...


----------



## Inkd

sockgirl77 said:


> Yeah, 2 measly boxes.



Well that pretty much sucks....

I've heard 22 is showing back up but not sure if the prices are down to where they used to be?


----------



## sockgirl77

Bay_Kat said:


> That's the same one my hubby wanted to buy me at our local Ace Hardware store.  I opted for something else.  It's pretty, but I just didn't want pink.
> 
> Glad you finally got it, seems like it's been forever.



Ace Hardware sells Sig Sauer?


----------



## sockgirl77

Inkd said:


> Well that pretty much sucks....
> 
> I've heard 22 is showing back up but not sure if the prices are down to where they used to be?



I'm paying $3 per box.


----------



## Bay_Kat

sockgirl77 said:


> Ace Hardware sells Sig Sauer?



Not sure if it's that same one, but it's the same exact look and color scheme.


----------



## Inkd

sockgirl77 said:


> I'm paying $3 per box.



Sounds like it's come down a bit, not much though. It's been awhile since I bought .22 ammo though.


----------



## StadEMS3

Fred's was selling .22LR CCI Stingers for $4 and they have been in stock every time I go. I try to go every other day to buy 9mm and .22, sometimes they let me buy 2 boxes of each! Whoo wooo! 

Not a prepper, I like go to the range a lot.


----------



## czygvtwkr

Why are revolvers so expensive


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Metal!!!!


----------



## Gilligan

This is why I like my 7.62 pistols....  price is about 40-50 cents a round and there is no shortage of supply and never was.

On the other hand..it was about 25 cents a round a year or so ago.


----------



## Midnightrider

itsbob said:


> FFL has a transfer fee to get your gun into MD and process it to sell to you..
> 
> I don't know of any state fee to get the checks done, is it paid for by Tax Payer funds??



as i understand it the MSP charges a small fee ($10 i think) to process the background chaeck. that fee is usually in the purchase price otr in the transfer fee. I did have one dealer hit me for it as an add on last year though.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Anyone else get their stuff? Post up pics.


----------



## smilin

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Anyone else get their stuff? Post up pics.



waiting 

day 49...


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I'm waiting the 30 days between purchases. Then 8 more. :/


----------



## abcxyz

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> I'm waiting the 30 days between purchases. Then 8 more. :/



You can purchase on the 22nd day, pick up on the 8th and it is still works out to 30 days. It is all about when you take possession.


----------



## itsbob

czygvtwkr said:


> Why are revolvers so expensive



Nobody wants so production is limited..  that and it takes a lot of money to maintain thise 200 year old machines they make them on...


----------



## Chasey_Lane

Gilligan said:


> here they are...


----------



## PsyOps

I'm not sure if anyone knew this and I have to verify it.  I heard it on the radio this morning and found it here:

Maryland Wait Times for Handguns, Rifles Running 40+ days | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns



> You see, the law is pretty clear that, after seven days, the FFL can release the firearm, even without receiving approved paperwork from the MSP. Yet the state police have made it clear that no one should actually do it, despite their inability to cope with the amount of background check volume.



So, it appears it's up to your FFL to release the firearm to your possession before the background check comes through.  But you have to ask.


----------



## PsyOps

Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division



> LD-FRS-13-001, June 7, 2013
> 
> TRANSFER OF A REGULATED FIREARM COMPLIANCE ADVISORY
> 
> The Maryland State Police Licensing Division has been receiving numerous inquiries regarding the 7 day waiting period and has been asked by many of our licensed firearms dealers to provide clarity regarding a dealers' ability to release regulated firearms after the expiration of this 7 day period. This weekly advisory is being sent in an effort to provide this clarification and also provide further clarification to the advisory that was issued on May 31, 2013.
> 
> Can a Maryland firearm dealer release a regulated firearm after the 7 day waiting period expires?
> 
> Under Annotated Code of Maryland, Public Safety Article Section 5-123(a) and consistent with Code of Maryland Regulations Title 29 Section 03.01.10, *a regulated firearm may be lawfully sold, leased or transferred by a licensed firearms dealer or other person after the seven-day waiting period, provided that the dealer or person has not received notice that the application has been placed on hold or disapproved by Maryland State Police (Public Safety Article Sec. 5-125(b)) and the dealer or person does not have actual knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the recipient is disqualified from possessing a regulated firearm under Maryland or federal law.*


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> I'm not sure if anyone knew this and I have to verify it.  I heard it on the radio this morning and found it here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see, the law is pretty clear that, after seven days, the FFL can release the firearm, even without receiving approved paperwork from the MSP. *Yet the state police have made it clear that no one should actually do it,* despite their inability to cope with the amount of background check volume.
> 
> 
> 
> So, it appears it's up to your FFL to release the firearm to your possession before the background check comes through.  But you have to ask.
Click to expand...


the bolded part is wrong as your next post indicates. The MSP has actually made sure that dealers are aware of the process by which they can release firearms on the 8th day and still be in full compliance with the law. I dont see that as "making it clear that no one should do it. Also, in talking with several FFLs i have learned that most are working with their local barracks to ensure their process/waiver is acceptable prior to beginning 8th day releases.


----------



## NextJen

I just called Freds to check how they were handling it since it's been 38 days for me now.  I was told that if I had purchased a firearm from them previously, they would let it go after the 8 days. If I had not previously bought one from them, I had to wait however long it takes for the paperwork to get done.

Looks like I'm waiting.


----------



## NavyMA85

I received an email friday from cromwells they were starting to release oldest to newest, but I still havent heard anything else back since then..I am a 4/9 waiting on my stag arms complete AR lower


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Midnightrider said:


> the bolded part is wrong as your next post indicates. The MSP has actually made sure that dealers are aware of the process by which they can release firearms on the 8th day and still be in full compliance with the law. I dont see that as "making it clear that no one should do it. Also, in talking with several FFLs i have learned that most are working with their local barracks to ensure their process/waiver is acceptable prior to beginning 8th day releases.



The issue is the fact that FFLs will not, and can not release a firearms with the NIC number.

Since the MSP is the POC for the ATF, FFLs have to wait on the MSP for that. 

The ATF has asked MD FFLs to not call and do an insta-check prior to MSP.

Many of these folks, technically, could transfer within the law, but choose not to because it's their business, livelyhood, and ass on the line.


----------



## Midnightrider

Chris0nllyn said:


> *The issue is the fact that FFLs will not, and can not release a firearms with the NIC number.*
> Since the MSP is the POC for the ATF, FFLs have to wait on the MSP for that.
> 
> The ATF has asked MD FFLs to not call and do an insta-check prior to MSP.
> 
> Many of these folks, technically, could transfer within the law, but choose not to because it's their business, livelyhood, and ass on the line.



thats just not true, FFLs can, and many are releasing without a NICS number on the form. One of the previous emails from MSP indicated that for 8th day purchases they would be running the NICS check almost immediately and let dealers know if the person is not approved with in the first 7 days.

I understand that some FFLs are choosing not to release, that is their choice. A lot of other things factor into it such as insurance. But they DO NOT NEED the NICS number in order to release.


----------



## itsbob

NavyMA85 said:


> I received an email friday from cromwells they were starting to release oldest to newest, but I still havent heard anything else back since then..I am a 4/9 waiting on my stag arms complete AR lower



YEAH!!

Time to clear out the firing lane on my rifle range.. 

I mean.. YEAH!!


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> the bolded part is wrong as your next post indicates. The MSP has actually made sure that dealers are aware of the process by which they can release firearms on the 8th day and still be in full compliance with the law. I dont see that as "making it clear that no one should do it. Also, in talking with several FFLs i have learned that most are working with their local barracks to ensure their process/waiver is acceptable prior to beginning 8th day releases.



I stopped by my FFL and they said it’s at their discretion and will only release to LE, security, and active duty military with LE background.  I’m sure every FFL will act differently.  They don’t want to release firearms to droves of people that they may have to recall.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> I stopped by my FFL and they said it’s at their discretion and will only release to LE, security, and active duty military with LE background.  I’m sure every FFL will act differently.  They don’t want to release firearms to droves of people that they may have to recall.



Each FFl is handling it differently and that is their right. It is my understanding that the MSP is doing the NICS check right away, so the FFls are covered, plus MSP will be on the hook for retrieving the guns if the customer is not approved. Still, FFLs can use their discretion, it is their business.


----------



## NavyMA85

itsbob said:


> YEAH!!
> 
> Time to clear out the firing lane on my rifle range..
> 
> I mean.. YEAH!!



I take it you have a firearm with cromwells also?


----------



## itsbob

NavyMA85 said:


> I take it you have a firearm with cromwells also?



Why yes, yes I do!


----------



## NavyMA85

itsbob said:


> Why yes, yes I do!


have you talked to them in the past few days?


----------



## itsbob

NavyMA85 said:


> have you talked to them in the past few days?



Nope, trying not to bother him, but did get an auto reply to an e-mail saying they are releasing.. from oldest to newest..


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Here is one of my new pistols.


----------



## NavyMA85

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Here is one of my new pistols.


Nice Gun...After I get my AR together im looking for a 9mm shot my buddies glock 19 and really liked it


----------



## nutz

PsyOps said:


> I stopped by my FFL and they said it’s at their discretion and will only release to LE, security, and active duty military with LE background.  I’m sure every FFL will act differently.  They don’t want to release firearms to droves of people that they may have to recall.



Who is your FFL?


----------



## nutz

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Here is one of my new pistols.



yep, that is nice. How well does it shoot?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

No clue. I haven't got a chance to shoot it yet. I'm not a member of a range or club. Have to wait on the field to be available. :/


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Here is one of my new pistols.



R1? Didn't go with the "enhanced" version?

Either way,it's nice. I want a 1911 bad.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Yeah. R1, no enhanced. They are super sweet though.


----------



## NextJen

NavyMA85 said:


> Nice Gun...After I get my AR together im looking for a 9mm shot my buddies glock 19 and really liked it



Glock 19


----------



## nutz

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> No clue. I haven't got a chance to shoot it yet. I'm not a member of a range or club. Have to wait on the field to be available. :/



Or drive to one of the state ones? Myrtle grove is busy, but it's not bad and only 20.00 a year

Shooting Ranges in Maryland - Wildlife and Heritage Service - Maryland Department of Natural Resources

Myrtle Grove WMA - Maryland Public Hunting Lands - Wildlife and Heritage Service - Maryland Department of Natural Resources


----------



## Chris0nllyn

nutz said:


> Or drive to one of the state ones? Myrtle grove is busy, but it's not bad and only 20.00 a year
> 
> Shooting Ranges in Maryland - Wildlife and Heritage Service - Maryland Department of Natural Resources
> 
> Myrtle Grove WMA - Maryland Public Hunting Lands - Wildlife and Heritage Service - Maryland Department of Natural Resources



That, and MD Small Arms just built a new range in Upper Marlboro. It's REALLY nice.


----------



## sockgirl77

Chris0nllyn said:


> That, and MD Small Arms just built a new range in Upper Marlboro. It's REALLY nice.



I was there on again on Saturday. It is a really nice range. The guys there are great too. And you definitely get the bang for the buck. BUT, if you're shooting .22...bring your own ammo!


----------



## Chris0nllyn

sockgirl77 said:


> I was there on again on Saturday. It is a really nice range. The guys there are great too. And you definitely get the bang for the buck. BUT, if you're shooting .22...bring your own ammo!



Yea, I think they still have a 1 box limit on .22, but everything else is now a 4 box limit.

I've been lucky enough to score plenty of .22


----------



## sockgirl77

Chris0nllyn said:


> Yea, I think they still have a 1 box limit on .22, but everything else is now a 4 box limit.
> 
> I've been lucky enough to score plenty of .22



No, they were OUT of it completely.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

I've got thousands of .22. I've got 100 .45 :/


----------



## StadEMS3

Chris0nllyn said:


> That, and MD Small Arms just built a new range in Upper Marlboro. It's REALLY nice.




I didn't think it was that nice. When I went there it had a heavy presence of the DC/PG crowd shooting one hand gang banger style, no range officer and it was freezing.

I shoot at a private/members only indoor range now.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

The other.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

StadEMS3 said:


> I didn't think it was that nice. When I went there it had a heavy presence of the DC/PG crowd shooting one hand gang banger style, no range officer and it was freezing.
> 
> I shoot at a private/members only indoor range now.



 Well, yea, there's always going to be those types there. 

Personally, the ventilation is way better compared to their last location.

I've only been to MSAR, and typially shoot on private land. I like not feeling pressured into leaving, or it being crowded.



Shaolin_Raptor said:


> The other.


----------



## PsyOps

nutz said:


> Who is your FFL?



PSTA


----------



## StadEMS3

PsyOps said:


> PSTA



Shhhh. That's my place too.


----------



## PsyOps

StadEMS3 said:


> Shhhh. That's my place too.



Have you used their ranges?  I haven't yet.  I think I remember you saying you were going to take their NRA course.  I haven't seen it on their schedule lately.

Anyway, you know them and they provide training services to just about all the regional LE and security; so I trust what they tell me about these new laws hitting us.  Not to mention these guys are very helpful.


----------



## smilin

Thanks to Joe and the Tackle Box staff, I finally received my handgun yesterday. 
April 19....
The little MSP note that informs you that if you don't pass the back ground check, the MSP WILL confiscate your gun without compensation, is a neat bit of legal work.


----------



## NavyMA85

smilin said:


> Thanks to Joe and the Tackle Box staff, I finally received my handgun yesterday.
> April 19....
> The little MSP note that informs you that if you don't pass the back ground check, the MSP WILL confiscate your gun without compensation, is a neat bit of legal work.



Must be nice im a 4/9 waiting on my lower from cromwells and they have been working through there backlog for 3 weeks now and i still havent heard anything from them  MSP is already up to 4/1 & 4/2 so by time i get mine msp will prolly be done my bg check...never again will i let this happen to me


----------



## PsyOps

So I am on day 75 for my AR15.  Called my FFL and now the wait is up to 100+ days.  Ridiculous!


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Apply for DC permit.


----------



## NextJen

PsyOps said:


> So I am on day 75 for my AR15.  Called my FFL and now the wait is up to 100+ days.  Ridiculous!



I'm on day 79 for a simple little .22.  So, in the meantime, I got another item that I didn't have to wait for.  Can't wait to shoot it.

Anyone going to Dulles this weekend? I need to get some extra mags for my new  purchase.


----------



## NextJen

Just got a call on day 95, my paperwork has not come back approved or denied, but my firearm is going to be released to me!  Gonna pick it up on Saturday!


----------



## sockgirl77

NextJen said:


> Just got a call on day 95, my paperwork has not come back approved or denied, but my firearm is going to be released to me!  Gonna pick it up on Saturday!



They never approve it. They send out a ND which means "not disapproved".


----------



## PsyOps

Day 94.  Nothing!


----------



## sockgirl77

PsyOps said:


> Day 94.  Nothing!


----------



## NextJen

PsyOps said:


> Day 94.  Nothing!



That sucks. I'll pick mine up Sat. morning.....unless I decide to cut out of work early tomorrow and make a trip to Waldorf.


----------



## NextJen

Just saw this posted by Maryland Shall Issue on FB this morning.  

AG Opinion: Says Marylanders can not obtain their pre-ordered Handguns after Oct 1 without HQL (handgun qualification license)!


AG Opinion: Says Marylanders can not obtain their pre-ordered Handguns after Oct 1 without HQL! | Delegate Mike Smigiel


----------



## StadEMS3

Fred’s released my friends handgun early, she picked it up last week! They said they will release after 7 days if you have purchased (and cleared a background check) from them before. She never purchased from them before but they did finally release it after about a month.


----------



## NextJen

StadEMS3 said:


> Fred’s released my friends handgun early, she picked it up last week! They said they will release after 7 days if you have purchased (and cleared a background check) from them before. She never purchased from them before but they did finally release it after about a month.



That's where mine is at.  I had gotten the same story from them.  They would not release to me if I had not purchased from them before. However, I got the call from them on Wednesday afternoon saying that I could come get it.  I understand them wanting to cover their behinds by having the paperwork back, but after 95 days of wait....come on!


----------



## Midnightrider

NextJen said:


> That's where mine is at.  I had gotten the same story from them.  They would not release to me if I had not purchased from them before. However, I got the call from them on Wednesday afternoon saying that I could come get it.  I understand them wanting to cover their behinds by having the paperwork back, but after 95 days of wait....come on!



I was in Fred's last week and heard staff telling people they are "letting the all go"   They said they had just changed their policy


----------



## StadEMS3

Midnightrider said:


> I was in Fred's last week and heard staff telling people they are "letting the all go"   They said they had just changed their policy



Might have to go and get me another handgun!


----------



## Gilligan

Wait..what! If handguns are going to be dealt with that way..what about long guns?  Applying the same logic, if you have not taken possession of that AR-15 you bought back in May by 1 October..you can never take possession of it.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Gilligan said:


> Wait..what! If handguns are going to be dealt with that way..what about long guns?  Applying the same logic, if you have not taken possession of that AR-15 you bought back in May by 1 October..you can never take possession of it.



Yep.

Add to that, the fact that the MSP hasn't come up with their training program, licensing program, or anything else that is required after Oct. 1 when buying a regulated weapon.

Essentially, no regulated weapons will be sold after Oct.1, up until they pull their head out of their asses and get something done. Could be months, and well into next year.


----------



## Vince

Bought my gun limit for the year.    Just have get more ammo now.


----------



## czygvtwkr

I wonder If i purchased now what my chances of getting it before Oct 1 is.


----------



## bulldog

czygvtwkr said:


> I wonder If i purchased now what my chances of getting it before Oct 1 is.



Very good, depending on where you go to buy it. A lot of the FFls are releasing on day 8 or shortly after.


----------



## PsyOps

Gilligan said:


> Wait..what! If handguns are going to be dealt with that way..what about long guns?  Applying the same logic, if you have not taken possession of that AR-15 you bought back in May by 1 October..you can never take possession of it.





Chris0nllyn said:


> Yep.
> 
> Add to that, the fact that the MSP hasn't come up with their training program, licensing program, or anything else that is required after Oct. 1 when buying a regulated weapon.
> 
> Essentially, no regulated weapons will be sold after Oct.1, up until they pull their head out of their asses and get something done. Could be months, and well into next year.



The link wont open for me.  Does it mention semi-auto rifles too?  Or just handguns?

What's got me a little steamed is I already got cleared for my handgun.  You would think that would be the first thing they look at: “did this guy already pass a previous BC?”  Yes!  No need to go any farther.

MSP has given the OK to FFLs to release guns after the 7 day waiting period at their discretion, but my FFL is being a stickler about it.  I know they don’t want to have to deal with having to recall firearms, but if you’ve already passed one BC (at least within the last 6 months or so) I think discretion is a no-brainer.


----------



## czygvtwkr

bulldog said:


> Very good, depending on where you go to buy it. A lot of the FFls are releasing on day 8 or shortly after.



There is enough supply to go around?  I cant decide if I want Ruger® SR9® Centerfire Pistol Models
or 
Ruger® GP100® Double-Action Revolver Models

because I also want Henry Repeating Arms | Fine Rifles Made in America and Priced Right

:shrug:


----------



## Chris0nllyn

PsyOps said:


> The link wont open for me.  Does it mention semi-auto rifles too?  Or just handguns?
> 
> What's got me a little steamed is I already got cleared for my handgun.  You would think that would be the first thing they look at: “did this guy already pass a previous BC?”  Yes!  No need to go any farther.
> 
> MSP has given the OK to FFLs to release guns after the 7 day waiting period at their discretion, but my FFL is being a stickler about it.  I know they don’t want to have to deal with having to recall firearms, but if you’ve already passed one BC (at least within the last 6 months or so) I think discretion is a no-brainer.



It applies to any and all regulated weapons.


----------



## PsyOps

Chris0nllyn said:


> It applies to any and all regulated weapons.



This is making wonder if MSP have been given instructions to delay background checks past Oct 1 in order to force people into this.  I am still finding it impossible to believe it's taking me 100 days when I've already passed one BC within the past 6 months.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

PsyOps said:


> This is making wonder if MSP have been given instructions to delay background checks past Oct 1 in order to force people into this.  I am still finding it impossible to believe it's taking me 100 days when I've already passed one BC within the past 6 months.



I don't doubt it.

A temporary solution was sent to the MSP, and O'Malley. It would have made FFLs be the POC, instead of the state.

Of course:


> The I-Team learned Friday that state officials and state police agreed that the state police should ultimately not relinquish any role in the background check process.




Gov, MSP: Gun background checks should stay with state police | I-Team - WBAL Home


----------



## smilin

czygvtwkr said:


> There is enough supply to go around?  I cant decide if I want Ruger® SR9® Centerfire Pistol Models
> or
> Ruger® GP100® Double-Action Revolver Models
> 
> because I also want Henry Repeating Arms | Fine Rifles Made in America and Priced Right
> 
> :shrug:




SR9 is a sweet pistol. Just got back from Fred's Gun Range. Out of the box and I was impressed. 
Take down is easy too.


----------



## PsyOps

Day 102 and waiting.


----------



## czygvtwkr

PsyOps said:


> Day 102 and waiting.



Whta are you waiting on and from where?


----------



## PsyOps

czygvtwkr said:


> Whta are you waiting on and from where?



An AR15.  My FFL is PSTA.


----------



## PsyOps

Finally got it today!


----------



## czygvtwkr

PsyOps said:


> Finally got it today!



Hope you got something to feed it.


----------



## PsyOps

czygvtwkr said:


> Hope you got something to feed it.



Lots.  Been stocking up.


----------



## Midnightrider

czygvtwkr said:


> Hope you got something to feed it.



And of course somewhere to shoot it.....


----------



## czygvtwkr

Just got my FNS-9!


----------



## sockgirl77

czygvtwkr said:


> Just got my FNS-9!



What was your wait time?


----------



## czygvtwkr

sockgirl77 said:


> What was your wait time?



8 Days


----------



## Midnightrider

czygvtwkr said:


> 8 Days



If anyone is waiting more than 8 days anymore it's their own fault.


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> If anyone is waiting more than 8 days anymore it's their own fault.



How is that?  We don't have any control over it.


----------



## abcxyz

Transfer to a FFL doing on time releases.


----------



## PsyOps

abcxyz said:


> Transfer to a FFL doing on time releases.



All it will take is for one recall and that FFL will end their early releases.  It’s still at the FFL’s discretion and we have no control over it.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> How is that?  We don't have any control over it.



You have complete control over who you buy from. If you buy from someone who makes you wait any longer than 8 days it's your own fault. The info is out there, and with the Oct 1 deadline right around the corner the buyer better beware.


----------



## abcxyz

Early release = less than the 7 days required by law. 
On time release = 8th day

I couldn't careless, wait as long as you would like. I'll be picking up 3 new toys this week!


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> You have complete control over who you buy from. If you buy from someone who makes you wait any longer than 8 days it's your own fault. The info is out there, and with the Oct 1 deadline right around the corner the buyer better beware.





abcxyz said:


> Early release = less than the 7 days required by law.
> On time release = 8th day
> 
> I couldn't careless, wait as long as you would like. I'll be picking up 3 new toys this week!




Abc, I’m not used to dealing with you, but I’m used to people like Midnight stirring up a bunch of #### and spouting off crap he is obvious in conflict with; even within himself.  He even replied after I posted the law (post 319) indicating that an FFL ‘CAN’ release, but they don’t have to (posts 320 and 327)

Here is the law.  The law does not REQUIRE FFLs to release anything to anyone.  It is at the FFL’s discretion.  I provided an article previous to that stating that MSP are discouraging the practice.  I bought my AR online and transferred to my FFL prior to knowing that this provision existed.  I was stuck and could nothing about it but wait.

Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division



> LD-FRS-13-001, June 7, 2013
> 
> TRANSFER OF A REGULATED FIREARM COMPLIANCE ADVISORY
> 
> The Maryland State Police Licensing Division has been receiving numerous inquiries regarding the 7 day waiting period and has been asked by many of our licensed firearms dealers to provide clarity regarding a dealers' ability to release regulated firearms after the expiration of this 7 day period. This weekly advisory is being sent in an effort to provide this clarification and also provide further clarification to the advisory that was issued on May 31, 2013.
> 
> Can a Maryland firearm dealer release a regulated firearm after the 7 day waiting period expires?
> 
> Under Annotated Code of Maryland, Public Safety Article Section 5-123(a) and consistent with Code of Maryland Regulations Title 29 Section 03.01.10, *a regulated firearm may be lawfully sold, leased or transferred by a licensed firearms dealer or other person after the seven-day waiting period, provided that the dealer or person has not received notice that the application has been placed on hold or disapproved by Maryland State Police (Public Safety Article Sec. 5-125(b)) and the dealer or person does not have actual knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the recipient is disqualified from possessing a regulated firearm under Maryland or federal law.*



Your FFL may be cooperating today, but it will only take a couple of recalls to change that.  They ARE NOT required to release that firearm to you if they feel it would be more counterproductive to do so.


----------



## Vince

PsyOps said:


> Finally got it today!


S&W M&P .223?  Put some good optics on it and it will shoot very well for you.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> Abc, I’m not used to dealing with you, but I’m used to people like Midnight stirring up a bunch of #### and spouting off crap he is obvious in conflict with; even within himself.  *He even replied after I posted the law (post 319) indicating that an FFL ‘CAN’ release, but they don’t have to (posts 320 and 327)*Here is the law.  The law does not REQUIRE FFLs to release anything to anyone.  It is at the FFL’s discretion.  I provided an article previous to that stating that MSP are discouraging the practice.  *I bought my AR online and transferred to my FFL prior to knowing that this provision existed.*  I was stuck and could nothing about it but wait.
> 
> Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division
> 
> 
> 
> Your FFL may be cooperating today, but it will only take a couple of recalls to change that.  They ARE NOT required to release that firearm to you if they feel it would be more counterproductive to do so.




thats right, they CAN release after 8 days, but they dont have to.
Just like you CAN give your money to a place that will hold your gun for months on end, but you dont have to.

there is no conflict. An educated buyer has no one but themselves to blame if the choose to spend their money in an establishment that doesn't release on time. An uneducated buyer only has themselves to blame too. 
:shrug:


edited to add:
just to be clear, I used to deal with a different FFL for transfers but when the crap hit the fan he chose to not release and kept my wife's gun hostage for about 2 months longer than necessary. I understand he is back to normal (8 day) release now, but i am on another horse at this point. I am toying with the idea of one final purchase prior to 10/1, i plan to use the FFl that has proven he is willing to release on time.


----------



## Midnightrider

I stopped by my old FFL today for some ammo and found out that they have been on 8 day release for a month or so now. He just might get my last minute purchases if I make any.


----------



## abcxyz

Psy- was just trying to help you or anyone else stuck in purgatory get their gun before 10/1.

If the MSP doesn't disapprove in 7 days, it is on the MSP to retrieve the firearm; not the FFL (not that I trust Maryland not to screw with ontime FFL's, that is what Maryland does).


----------



## ZARA

Amazing- I got my paperwork back for my AR-15s in 32 days.

Good luck guys.


----------



## Tilted

PsyOps said:


> Abc, I’m not used to dealing with you, but I’m used to people like Midnight stirring up a bunch of #### and spouting off crap he is obvious in conflict with; even within himself.  He even replied after I posted the law (post 319) indicating that an FFL ‘CAN’ release, but they don’t have to (posts 320 and 327)
> 
> Here is the law.  The law does not REQUIRE FFLs to release anything to anyone.  It is at the FFL’s discretion.  I provided an article previous to that stating that MSP are discouraging the practice.  I bought my AR online and transferred to my FFL prior to knowing that this provision existed.  I was stuck and could nothing about it but wait.
> 
> Maryland State Police > Organization > Support Services Bureau > Licensing Division
> 
> 
> 
> Your FFL may be cooperating today, but it will only take a couple of recalls to change that.  They ARE NOT required to release that firearm to you if they feel it would be more counterproductive to do so.



Why would this specific law require FFLs to release anything to anyone? That's what someone does when they sell you something, they give it to you, except to the extent they are prevented from doing so by special circumstances. This specific law isn't granting FFL's permission to release firearms, it is prohibiting them from doing so under specific circumstances (e.g. for a specific period of time)

You pay someone money, they give you the merchandise. Sometimes it's on order, so they have to wait until it comes in to give it to you. When it comes to regulated firearms, there's a special law that prohibits them from giving it to you for 7 days (or until a 'not disapproved' application is returned, whichever is shorter). That's all the law prevents (unless a disapproved application is returned within 7 days). After that, you return to the general nature of the ubiquitous merchant-consumer transaction. There's nothing prohibiting the FFL from giving you the merchandise you paid them for, so they should give it to you. They aren't doing anything wrong in giving it to you, even if it turns out later that the MSP disapproves the application (and actually, as the law is written, I don't think the MSP is allowed to disapprove an application after 7 days - if it's going to disapprove the application, it is required to inform the FFL within 7 days; not that the MSP feels bound by a plain reading of the law).

I won't go so far as to say someone could successfully sue an FFL to force them to release a firearm after 7 days, but they should be able to unless the FFL made it clear when the deal was made that they were going to wait however long it took to get a 'not disapproved' back. And I surely wouldn't suggest that  people should sue their FFL's over this issue. I understand why FFL's might fear (improper) repercussions from the MSP and thus be overly cautious. But I will go so far as to say that I wouldn't do business with an FFL unless they assured me that they would release my firearm to me when they were allowed to - i.e. after 7 days. That's what I expect from people I buy stuff from. I pay them money, they give me the merchandise, unless there's some reason they can't (e.g. they had to special order it) or some reason I don't want it yet.


----------



## PsyOps

Tilted said:


> Why would this specific law require FFLs to release anything to anyone? That's what someone does when they sell you something, they give it to you, except to the extent they are prevented from doing so by special circumstances. This specific law isn't granting FFL's permission to release firearms, it is prohibiting them from doing so under specific circumstances (e.g. for a specific period of time)
> 
> You pay someone money, they give you the merchandise. Sometimes it's on order, so they have to wait until it comes in to give it to you. When it comes to regulated firearms, there's a special law that prohibits them from giving it to you for 7 days (or until a 'not disapproved' application is returned, whichever is shorter). That's all the law prevents (unless a disapproved application is returned within 7 days). After that, you return to the general nature of the ubiquitous merchant-consumer transaction. There's nothing prohibiting the FFL from giving you the merchandise you paid them for, so they should give it to you. They aren't doing anything wrong in giving it to you, even if it turns out later that the MSP disapproves the application (and actually, as the law is written, I don't think the MSP is allowed to disapprove an application after 7 days - if it's going to disapprove the application, it is required to inform the FFL within 7 days; not that the MSP feels bound by a plain reading of the law).
> 
> I won't go so far as to say someone could successfully sue an FFL to force them to release a firearm after 7 days, but they should be able to unless the FFL made it clear when the deal was made that they were going to wait however long it took to get a 'not disapproved' back. And I surely wouldn't suggest that  people should sue their FFL's over this issue. I understand why FFL's might fear (improper) repercussions from the MSP and thus be overly cautious. But I will go so far as to say that I wouldn't do business with an FFL unless they assured me that they would release my firearm to me when they were allowed to - i.e. after 7 days. That's what I expect from people I buy stuff from. I pay them money, they give me the merchandise, unless there's some reason they can't (e.g. they had to special order it) or some reason I don't want it yet.



I’m not sure why you posted this to me.  You are saying the same thing I’m saying, only with a lot more complicated words.  I wasn’t implying they were doing anything wrong by handing out the firearm immediately after 7 days.

I do think you have it wrong about the MSP not being allowed to disapprove after 7 days.  They are extremely backlogged for months and can’t even get to them within the 7 days.  All you have to do is read this thread and see all the people that have had to wait for months for their FFL to release the gun because of the delay in background checks.  I don’t know what provision was requiring them to hold firearm in wait of background checks, but that is what was happening, at every FFL up to a certain point (when this provision was released), and what *IS* still happening at many FFLs.

You can dispute that if you want, but it’s happening; the evidence is right in this thread.  :shrug:


----------



## Tilted

PsyOps said:


> I’m not sure why you posted this to me.  You are saying the same thing I’m saying, only with a lot more complicated words.  I wasn’t implying they were doing anything wrong by handing out the firearm immediately after 7 days.



I was responding to your point about the law (i.e. this specific law) not requiring an FFL to release anything to anyone. Of course it doesn't, it just prohibits them from doing so for a period of time. After that, a seller's obligation to turnover purchased merchandise stems from the basic nature of a buyer-seller transaction and/or the common law principles associated with such transactions.

You assert that they aren't required to release a firearm if they feel it might be more counterproductive to do so. Well, I suppose you can argue that but it kind of flies in the face of the nature of buyer-seller transactions. Someone selling something kind of does have to turn it over to the person buying it once they've been paid for it and unless there's some legitimate reason why they can't or shouldn't. As I suggested in the previous post, perhaps a buyer couldn't make a strong enough legal case that an FFL must turn over the firearm once it is no longer prohibited from doing so (and there's no other legitimate reason why it can't), but it's certainly the right thing to do for the FFL to turn it over once it has no real reason not to. That's what happens when you sell things, you give them to the buyer. There doesn't need to be a specific law telling a seller that.

Not only is it not wrong for an FFL to release a firearm after the 7 days is up, it's wrong for them not to. I get the fear-of-overstepping/abusive government dynamic that might make them reluctant to release firearms when they should, but it's still wrong of them to refuse to do so. They chose the business; if they don't want to stand up to the possibility of improper government behavior, perhaps they should get out of the business - or, at least, not engage in this aspect of it. They shouldn't expect customers to pay the bill (in the form of time) for their insecurity and indulgence of superfluous caution.



PsyOps said:


> I do think you have it wrong about the MSP not being allowed to disapprove after 7 days.  They are extremely backlogged for months and can’t even get to them within the 7 days.  All you have to do is read this thread and see all the people that have had to wait for months for their FFL to release the gun because of the delay in background checks.  I don’t know what provision was requiring them to hold firearm in wait of background checks, but that is what was happening, at every FFL up to a certain point (when this provision was released), and what *IS* still happening at many FFLs.
> 
> You can dispute that if you want, but it’s happening; the evidence is right in this thread.  :shrug:



I didn't dispute, and I'm not disputing, that that's happening. My parenthetical suggested that I didn't think the MSP felt that it was bound to enforce the law as written.

My comment was about what the law itself seems to require. Do you disagree on that point - that the law, as written, would seem to require the MSP to notify an FFL within 7 days if it is going to disapprove an application?


----------



## PsyOps

Tilted said:


> I didn't dispute, and I'm not disputing, that that's happening. My parenthetical suggested that I didn't think the MSP felt that it was bound to enforce the law as written.
> 
> My comment was about what the law itself seems to require. Do you disagree on that point - that the law, as written, would seem to require the MSP to notify an FFL within 7 days if it is going to disapprove an application?



I don’t know if there is some sort of amendment to the law or other executive order that initially bound FFLs to hold firearms because of the massive delays.  Just from a logical standpoint, how can the MSP notify the FFL within 7 days of any background check when they haven’t had the opportunity to look at it yet?  What explains all these cases we’re reading about in this thread of FFLs holding guns for weeks/months?  With the backlog, if folks are getting their guns on day 8, it’s my thought FFLs are releasing those guns to people that the MSP hadn’t even seen their background check yet?  Is that in compliance with the law?


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

Tilted said:


> Why would this specific law require FFLs to release anything to anyone? That's what someone does when they sell you something, they give it to you, except to the extent they are prevented from doing so by special circumstances. This specific law isn't granting FFL's permission to release firearms, it is prohibiting them from doing so under specific circumstances (e.g. for a specific period of time)
> 
> You pay someone money, they give you the merchandise. Sometimes it's on order, so they have to wait until it comes in to give it to you. When it comes to regulated firearms, there's a special law that prohibits them from giving it to you for 7 days (or until a 'not disapproved' application is returned, whichever is shorter). That's all the law prevents (unless a disapproved application is returned within 7 days). After that, you return to the general nature of the ubiquitous merchant-consumer transaction. There's nothing prohibiting the FFL from giving you the merchandise you paid them for, so they should give it to you. They aren't doing anything wrong in giving it to you, even if it turns out later that the MSP disapproves the application (and actually, as the law is written, I don't think the MSP is allowed to disapprove an application after 7 days - if it's going to disapprove the application, it is required to inform the FFL within 7 days; not that the MSP feels bound by a plain reading of the law).
> 
> I won't go so far as to say someone could successfully sue an FFL to force them to release a firearm after 7 days, but they should be able to unless the FFL made it clear when the deal was made that they were going to wait however long it took to get a 'not disapproved' back. And I surely wouldn't suggest that  people should sue their FFL's over this issue. I understand why FFL's might fear (improper) repercussions from the MSP and thus be overly cautious. But I will go so far as to say that I wouldn't do business with an FFL unless they assured me that they would release my firearm to me when they were allowed to - i.e. after 7 days. That's what I expect from people I buy stuff from. I pay them money, they give me the merchandise, unless there's some reason they can't (e.g. they had to special order it) or some reason I don't want it yet.



Your second paragraph.....It's good to be a LEO. I say that because, as I was told by a friend of mine; a county P.O.; "I can go into any gun store, buy anything I want and walk out with it the same day."


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> I don’t know if there is some sort of amendment to the law or other executive order that initially bound FFLs to hold firearms because of the massive delays.  Just from a logical standpoint, how can the MSP notify the FFL within 7 days of any background check when they haven’t had the opportunity to look at it yet?  What explains all these cases we’re reading about in this thread of FFLs holding guns for weeks/months?  With the backlog, if folks are getting their guns on day 8, it’s my thought FFLs are releasing those guns to people that the MSP hadn’t even seen their background check yet?  Is that in compliance with the law?



no ammendments, just coercion from the MSP. talk about an overstepping government......

As for background checks, the MSP runs the NICS immediately upon recieving the applications. generally if you pass that, you pass. The state police then run all the other state mandated checks.


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> no ammendments, just coercion from the MSP. talk about an overstepping government......
> 
> As for background checks, the MSP runs the NICS immediately upon recieving the applications. generally if you pass that, you pass. The state police then run all the other state mandated checks.



And you know this how?  Do you work for the MSP?  I have friends that do and they tell me they are backlogged for months.  Requests are coming in so fast they can't keep up and don't get to them for over several weeks.  

Now how does this translate into the FFLs - all over MD (as you have read in this thread) - refusing to release firearms on day 8 because of BCs?  Are you telling me they are all being intimidated by the MSP and the MSP is getting away with overstepping the bounds of the law?  IF FFLs are REQUIRED to release after 7 days, as long as nothing comes back, why aren’t they?  Certainly the MSP can’t waltz into every FFL and start arresting them for fallaciously handing out firearms, if the FFLs are staying within the bounds of the law.  How the MSP would even know the FFL has released the firearm?  Something was telling them to hold them.


----------



## Tilted

PsyOps said:


> I don’t know if there is some sort of amendment to the law or other executive order that initially bound FFLs to hold firearms because of the massive delays.  Just from a logical standpoint, how can the MSP notify the FFL within 7 days of any background check when they haven’t had the opportunity to look at it yet?  What explains all these cases we’re reading about in this thread of FFLs holding guns for weeks/months?  With the backlog, if folks are getting their guns on day 8, it’s my thought FFLs are releasing those guns to people that the MSP hadn’t even seen their background check yet?  Is that in compliance with the law?



I think it's just a case of the MSP not complying with the law as written because it doesn't think it can (e.g. because it hasn't been given enough resources or the system it's set up isn't particularly efficient and, this being a government bureaucracy rather than a private business, there isn't enough incentive to make it more efficient or devote more resources to it). I suspect that the MSP just thinks it doesn't have to comply with the law as written because, well, it doesn't think it's able to. So it just pretends that what it's doing (i.e disapproving an application after the time limit) is okay. It may even have an outside opinion (e.g. from the state AG) that that is okay.

It is what it is and it will likely continue as such. Entities in power do what they do, and they often get away with it even when they shouldn't - even when the law would seem to require otherwise. The reality that the MSP can't get the checks done quick enough doesn't change what the requirements of the law are. As the law is written, if the MSP can't return a disapproved within the time limit, it would seem to lose its right to return a disapproved. (That's based on my recollection of how the law reads, I haven't looked at it in a while.) Just because someone can't do what they're directed to do in accordance with the law, that doesn't automatically give them the rightful authority to do it in violation of the law.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> Your second paragraph.....It's good to be a LEO. I say that because, as I was told by a friend of mine; a county P.O.; "I can go into any gun store, buy anything I want and walk out with it the same day."



No he can't.


----------



## PsyOps

Tilted said:


> I think it's just a case of the MSP not complying with the law as written because it doesn't think it can (e.g. because it hasn't been given enough resources or the system it's set up isn't particularly efficient and, this being a government bureaucracy rather than a private business, there isn't enough incentive to make it more efficient or devote more resources to it). I suspect that the MSP just thinks it doesn't have to comply with the law as written because, well, it doesn't think it's able to. So it just pretends that what it's doing (i.e disapproving an application after the time limit) is okay. It may even have an outside opinion (e.g. from the state AG) that that is okay.
> 
> It is what it is and it will likely continue as such. Entities in power do what they do, and they often get away with it even when they shouldn't - even when the law would seem to require otherwise. The reality that the MSP can't get the checks done quick enough doesn't change what the requirements of the law are. As the law is written, if the MSP can't return a disapproved within the time limit, it would seem to lose its right to return a disapproved. (That's based on my recollection of how the law reads, I haven't looked at it in a while.) Just because someone can't do what they're directed to do in accordance with the law, that doesn't automatically give them the rightful authority to do it in violation of the law.



I think this whole thing comes to an end Oct 1; or sometime thereafter when they’ve caught with the influx of requests.  But you and Midnight are in the same boat thinking the MSP is somehow coercing FFLs to hold firearms beyond the authority of the law.  First of all, how do I, waiting for my gun, go into my FFL and tell them they are in violation of the law by not releasing it on day 8?  Again, who is really telling them they must do this?  I’ve gotten the word from a few sources that have told me that the MSP aren’t even getting to see requests within the 7 days; not even within several months.  Are we being lied to?  Why would they need to lie to us about this?  I’d think they’d want them out of their hair.  Is there really some higher authority dictating this?  Does the MSP really even keep track of what’s been released and what hasn’t?  If they have, then do they have the authority to round up FFLs and start arresting them for abiding by the law?  Your and Midnight only explain what the law is; you don’t explain by what authority the MSP and FFLs are doing this.  Claiming the MSP are violating the law, there would have to be tons of lawsuits all over MD.  There are too many gun advocates educated in the law to let something like this go.


----------



## Tilted

PsyOps said:


> I think this whole thing comes to an end Oct 1; or sometime thereafter when they’ve caught with the influx of requests.  But you and Midnight are in the same boat thinking the MSP is somehow coercing FFLs to hold firearms beyond the authority of the law.  First of all, how do I, waiting for my gun, go into my FFL and tell them they are in violation of the law by not releasing it on day 8?  Again, who is really telling them they must do this?  I’ve gotten the word from a few sources that have told me that the MSP aren’t even getting to see requests within the 7 days; not even within several months.  Are we being lied to?  Why would they need to lie to us about this?  I’d think they’d want them out of their hair.  Is there really some higher authority dictating this?  Does the MSP really even keep track of what’s been released and what hasn’t?  If they have, then do they have the authority to round up FFLs and start arresting them for abiding by the law?  Your and Midnight only explain what the law is; you don’t explain by what authority the MSP and FFLs are doing this.  Claiming the MSP are violating the law, there would have to be tons of lawsuits all over MD.  There are too many gun advocates educated in the law to let something like this go.



I don't think the MSP (or, at least, I wouldn't assert that the MSP) is actively coercing FFLs to not release firearms. I think it's just a product of the general regulatory environment and the nature of the authority that various parts of government have over FFLs. I think FFLs are generally fearful of incurring the wrath of government powers that have regulatory authority over them, so some of them are overly cautious in a way that harms their customers.

As for what you can do about getting a firearm released, as a practical matter that's something you would probably need to have addressed before you decided which FFL to do business with. You (or whoever we'd be talking about) are probably out of luck at this point. In theory you could file suit and ask that the person who sold you something (or provided a service to you) release to you the merchandise that you paid for, because there's no legitimate reason for them not to. I wouldn't suggest that however; it's probably not worth the effort, it likely wouldn't be successful (at least not timely enough), and for my part I wouldn't want to be the kind of person who sues over every little thing I'm not happy about.

I think there was a lawsuit, btw, regarding the MSP not returning applications in a timely manner. I'm not sure what happened with that, it may no longer be an issue as the MSP made statements to the effect that FFLs could release firearms after the 7-day time limit. As for everyone suing over such things, I think most people understand that it's probably not worth the effort over every little thing, understand that their chances of success (even if they're right) aren't necessarily good, and understand that often the government just gets away with doing things improperly.

All that said, and this is the only thing that's important in so far as my initial point (a parenthetical one as it was) went, do you disagree with my reading of the law? Does it not seem to require the MSP to return disapproved applications within 7 days? If the MSP can't do that, then it can't do that - it isn't supposed to return applications as disapproved then. I understand that it may be doing so anyway, I understood that when I made my initial point. But the point still stands, the law says what it says.


Oh, and we've gone on about this one (not particularly important to me) specific point for far too long at this point.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> I think this whole thing comes to an end Oct 1; or sometime thereafter when they’ve caught with the influx of requests.  But you and Midnight are in the same boat thinking the MSP is somehow coercing FFLs to hold firearms beyond the authority of the law.  First of all, how do I, waiting for my gun, go into my FFL and tell them they are in violation of the law by not releasing it on day 8?  Again, who is really telling them they must do this?  I’ve gotten the word from a few sources that have told me that the MSP aren’t even getting to see requests within the 7 days; not even within several months.  Are we being lied to?  Why would they need to lie to us about this?  I’d think they’d want them out of their hair.  Is there really some higher authority dictating this?  Does the MSP really even keep track of what’s been released and what hasn’t?  If they have, then do they have the authority to round up FFLs and start arresting them for abiding by the law?  Your and Midnight only explain what the law is; you don’t explain by what authority the MSP and FFLs are doing this.  Claiming the MSP are violating the law, *there would have to be tons of lawsuits all over MD*.  There are too many gun advocates educated in the law to let something like this go.




go over to MDshooters and educate yourself. There was a lawsuit and the MSP settled. There were also several faxes and letters that the MSP put out that coereced FFLs. After the lawsuit there has been nothing but "FFLs can release on day 8 and will not be help liable for BCs not completed in that time frame."


The law is the law. It only gives the MSP limited authority over this and only puts limited restrictions on an FFls ability to release on the 8th day. 

No one is saying it is illegal for an FFl to wait for the ND to come back from the MSP, only that the law does not require them to. If you choose an FFL that holds past day 8, thats on you, there are literally hundreds of FFLs in MD who are releasing on time. Again there is a thread on MDshooters on the subject, plenty of info is out there.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

FFL's are NOT being coerced into not giving out after 8 days. A responsible FFL will not be giving the weapon to someone that they have reason to believe will not pass the background check. SOME FFLS's will not give out after 8 days for fear and ignorance. The MSP has given written instructions to FFL's on how to handle 8 day releases. The 8 day release is actually taking a considerable amount of weight off the MSP's shoulders.

Thats it. Simple.


----------



## Midnightrider

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> *FFL's are NOT being coerced into not giving out after 8 days*. A responsible FFL will not be giving the weapon to someone that they have reason to believe will not pass the background check. SOME FFLS's will not give out after 8 days for fear and ignorance. The MSP has given written instructions to FFL's on how to handle 8 day releases. The 8 day release is actually taking a considerable amount of weight off the MSP's shoulders.
> 
> Thats it. Simple.



anymore.....


----------



## PsyOps

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> FFL's are NOT being coerced into not giving out after 8 days. A responsible FFL will not be giving the weapon to someone that they have reason to believe will not pass the background check.



I’m not buying this either.  Just a couple of months prior to me buying my AR, my FFL released my handgun to me, so I already went through the ringer once.  Another factor I was told comes into play is being active duty or retired military, as well as having a security clearance.  So, in my case there was absolutely no reason for them to believe I wouldn’t pass my BC.  They held my AR for over 100 days, even after calling them several times prior to that.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Midnight, it is not anymore. Prior to them saying it was ok, it was not ok. After they said it was ok, it was ok. Ok? 

Psy, that is not always the case. Sadly a clearance and prior military or LEO will not get a cut in line. I looked into that as well.


----------



## PsyOps

Tilted said:


> I don't think the MSP (or, at least, I wouldn't assert that the MSP) is actively coercing FFLs to not release firearms. I think it's just a product of the general regulatory environment and the nature of the authority that various parts of government have over FFLs. I think FFLs are generally fearful of incurring the wrath of government powers that have regulatory authority over them, so some of them are overly cautious in a way that harms their customers.



Now this I’ll agree with.  Someone in authority is pulling the strings.



Tilted said:


> As for what you can do about getting a firearm released, as a practical matter that's something you would probably need to have addressed before you decided which FFL to do business with. You (or whoever we'd be talking about) are probably out of luck at this point. In theory you could file suit and ask that the person who sold you something (or provided a service to you) release to you the merchandise that you paid for, because there's no legitimate reason for them not to. I wouldn't suggest that however; it's probably not worth the effort, it likely wouldn't be successful (at least not timely enough), and for my part I wouldn't want to be the kind of person who sues over every little thing I'm not happy about.



Midnight has pointed this out.  My problem was, I had already purchased my AR and selected my FFL by the time this advisory came out.  I contacted my FFL as soon as I found out about it and, considering the advisory leaves discretion up to the FFL whether to release, my FFL decided not to release to me.  They didn’t give a reason except to say they were reluctant to start the trend for fear they would have to recall firearms in large numbers, which creates an administrative mess for them.  I’m thinking because they are a firearms and security services provider and training grounds for virtually all the local police they didn’t want to hand my gun to me if a MSP officer happened to be in the shop.  But they eventually released it to me and I’m good to go.  I have pretty much everything I want.  I’m not the suing part; but the NRA is, and I’m surprised they haven’t stepped in on this one.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

PsyOps said:


> I’m not buying this either.  Just a couple of months prior to me buying my AR, my FFL released my handgun to me, so I already went through the ringer once.  Another factor I was told comes into play is being active duty or retired military, as well as having a security clearance.  So, in my case there was absolutely no reason for them to believe I wouldn’t pass my BC.  They held my AR for over 100 days, even after calling them several times prior to that.



For clarification, I bought 2 pistols, then 2 more, then an ar, then a lower. I will still need a bgc for all of them like I never have made a purchase before. Prior purchases weigh in on DC permits, but for the bgc everyone is treated like a new person.


----------



## PsyOps

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> For clarification, I bought 2 pistols, then 2 more, then an ar, then a lower. I will still need a bgc for all of them like I never have made a purchase before. Prior purchases weigh in on DC permits, but for the bgc everyone is treated like a new person.



I completely understand each controlled firearm requires its own BC.  But, when discretion is given to the FFL to release after 8 days, and it’s been 75, 80, 100 days, and you’ve had nothing come back rejecting it, and you’ve had a prior BC done, I think they acted a little rash.  With this sort of discretion they should consider prior records, as well as other factors they already know about me.


----------



## PsyOps

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Psy, that is not always the case. Sadly a clearance and prior military or LEO will not get a cut in line. I looked into that as well.



If we’re talking 75 days, there is no cut in line.  The advisory from the MSP gave FFLs discretion; which means they can handle each case as they see fit.  Exercise of discretion means they can consider things like prior BCs and security clearance.  My FFL even made mention of my clearance as a plus when I picked up my pistol, stating that if you can get a TS you can certainly pass the BC.  I’m not implying there is anything in the law giving special consideration to people with clearances; I’m strictly sticking to where they’ve been given the flexibility to exercise ‘discretion’.


----------



## Midnightrider

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Midnight, it is not anymore. Prior to them saying it was ok, it was not ok. After they said it was ok, it was ok. Ok?
> 
> Psy, that is not always the case. Sadly a clearance and prior military or LEO will not get a cut in line. I looked into that as well.



It was actually OK the entire time. I got several guns on 8th day release prior to the MSP telling dealers they shouldn't release them. Once the MSP put out the clairifcation that it was a dealers perogative a lot more dealers jumped on the release band wagon.


----------



## DEEKAYPEE8569

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> No he can't.



Source?

_I did_ look at him with a 'you're full-a ***t' smirk on my face, but he insisted that that was true.


----------



## PsyOps

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> Source?
> 
> _I did_ look at him with a 'you're full-a ***t' smirk on my face, but he insisted that that was true.



MCSM: Maryland Firearm Laws



> Federal and Maryland State or local law enforcement officers generally are exempt from the permit requirement. However, sheriffs and their deputies are exempted only while on active assignment engaged in law enforcement and only with respect to handguns which they are duly authorized to wear, carry or transport as part of their official equipment. Law enforcement officers from other states are exempt only while on official business.



Not sure if this addresses what you're talking about.


----------



## PsyOps

MCSM: Maryland Firearm Laws



> The application may be disapproved only if the purchaser is ineligible or if the information supplied is false or incomplete. If no action is taken within seven working days from the date the application is forwarded by the dealer, the handgun *may* be delivered to the purchaser.



Not MUST, but MAY.  The law does not appear to require FFLs to release anything on day 8.

Then there's this:



> Most Maryland dealers who are licensed by the State Police routinely await approval from the State Police even after seven days have elapsed.













educate yourself!


----------



## Tilted

PsyOps said:


> MCSM: Maryland Firearm Laws
> 
> ​
> Not MUST, but MAY.  The law does not appear to require FFLs to release anything on day 8.
> 
> Then there's this:
> 
> ​



That's right, in so far as this law is concerned the FFL is then free to turn the firearm over to the purchaser - there is no longer a specific prohibition on them doing so. No one has asserted, at least I haven't, that this specific law says they have to give the firearm to you. This law doesn't need to say that.

So now it becomes like an ordinary sales transaction, one without that specific legal limitation placed upon it. What happens when someone pays for merchandise and there's no legitimate reason for the merchant not to give it to them? How do sales transactions work? You pay your money, they give you your merchandise. That's what should happen. Like I suggested, I wouldn't do business with someone that refused to give me what I bought from them after I'd paid them for it - unless there was a good and legitimate reason for them not to. Depending on the circumstances, they may or may not be in actual violation of common law principles (if they don't turn over the merchandise you paid for), but they are in the wrong unless they told you ahead of time of their special policy regarding releasing firearms. The natural, and reasonable,  expectation would be that they would give you the firearm you paid for when they were legally allowed to. That has always been after 7 days, regardless of whether the application was returned - a fact that the MSP / AG recently had to acknowledge.

You're looking for an explicit declaration of a common sense / common law reality, and not finding such a declaration you're suggesting that the reality doesn't exist. But it does.


----------



## PsyOps

Tilted said:


> That's right, in so far as this law is concerned the FFL is then free to turn the firearm over to the purchaser - there is no longer a specific prohibition on them doing so. No one has asserted, at least I haven't, that this specific law says they have to give the firearm to you. This law doesn't need to say that.
> 
> So now it becomes like an ordinary sales transaction, one without that specific legal limitation placed upon it. What happens when someone pays for merchandise and there's no legitimate reason for the merchant not to give it to them? How do sales transactions work? You pay your money, they give you your merchandise. That's what should happen. Like I suggested, I wouldn't do business with someone that refused to give me what I bought from them after I'd paid them for it - unless there was a good and legitimate reason for them not to. Depending on the circumstances, they may or may not be in actual violation of common law principles (if they don't turn over the merchandise you paid for), but they are in the wrong unless they told you ahead of time of their special policy regarding releasing firearms. The natural, and reasonable,  expectation would be that they would give you the firearm you paid for when they were legally allowed to. That has always been after 7 days, regardless of whether the application was returned - a fact that the MSP / AG recently had to acknowledge.
> 
> You're looking for an explicit declaration of a common sense / common law reality, and not finding such a declaration you're suggesting that the reality doesn't exist. But it does.



That post was mostly for Midnight, who has been contending FFLs are required to release the gun on day 8, which they are not…………………… and return his condescension in kind.

But I am still struggling with, if the MSP was able to review BCs within the 7 day window even with the huge influx of requests, why were FFLs holding out for months on people when there was no real rational reason to do so?  I would like to know who was pulling the strings.

I do understand we are facing some extraordinary circumstances, that may extend wait times beyond 8 days, but I can’t see 50, 75, or worst 100 day wait times.


----------



## Tilted

PsyOps said:


> That post was mostly for Midnight, who has been contending FFLs are required to release the gun on day 8, which they are not…………………… and return his condescension in kind.
> 
> But I am still struggling with, if the MSP was able to review BCs within the 7 day window even with the huge influx of requests, why were FFLs holding out for months on people when there was no real rational reason to do so?  I would like to know who was pulling the strings.
> 
> I do understand we are facing some extraordinary circumstances, that may extend wait times beyond 8 days, but I can’t see 50, 75, or worst 100 day wait times.



My guess would be that they had set up a rather inefficient process for the checks and that they didnt have nearly enough resources devoted to that process in light of the short-term demand generated by SB 281. I wouldn't necessarily ascribe nefarious motives, other than that which might be represented by an improper (read: arrogant) lack of concern for getting the job done within a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> That post was mostly for Midnight, who has been contending FFLs are required to release the gun on day 8, which they are not…………………… and return his condescension in kind.
> 
> But I am still struggling with, if the MSP was able to review BCs within the 7 day window even with the huge influx of requests, why were FFLs holding out for months on people when there was no real rational reason to do so?  I would like to know who was pulling the strings.
> 
> I do understand we are facing some extraordinary circumstances, that may extend wait times beyond 8 days, but I can’t see 50, 75, or worst 100 day wait times.


. I never once said that FFLs were required to release on the 8th day.  Only that there is nothing stopping them. As a result, if you buy from an FFL that refuses to release your purchase its your own fault. There are hundreds that do release on the 8th day. 

The educate yourself comment was directed at your comment about law suits. There was one made by MSI on behalf of gun owners and gun dealers. As part of the settlement the MSP sent out less ambiguous direction on 8th day release. Prior to that they had sent faxes and emails that alluded to liability for FFLs should they choose to release prior to getting back an ND. You can find that info on MDshooters, in the Maryland 2ndA section, under the thread a out the MSI lawsuit. Several of the letters and faxes the dealers received from MSP are in that thread. If you want to go read it. 

And tilted's assessment is right on, the MSP didn't have the resources to handle this huge rush of buying. There is no way they will be able to handle the further burden of training and licensing requirements coming with 281


----------



## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> . There are hundreds that do release on the 8th day.



List? TIA.


----------



## Chris0nllyn

Midnightrider said:


> And tilted's assessment is right on, the MSP didn't have the resources to handle this huge rush of buying. There is no way they will be able to handle the further burden of training and licensing requirements coming with 281



They do have the resources. 

They choose to manually check 17 different databases.

They choose to use a limited number of fax machines instead of electronic avenues.

They choose to be the POC instead of the FFL.

They won't be doing anything but collecting money. They set the guidelines already, and NRA certified instructors will be teaching the classes. They are about to finish up their payment procedures also....of course that will be online.


MSP's problem is the higher-ups put into office by the O'Malley administration who are his lap dogs.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> Source?
> 
> _I did_ look at him with a 'you're full-a ***t' smirk on my face, but he insisted that that was true.





PsyOps said:


> MCSM: Maryland Firearm Laws
> 
> ​
> Not sure if this addresses what you're talking about.



^That. Technically he MIGHT be able to. I'd like to see him pull it off. My FFL is a former PG cop, son is MSP. He still can't buy stuff Texas style. I'm sure if they proved somehow that it is used for work somehow, blah blah. The local leo do get ammo discounts though, which is nice.


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> As a result, if you buy from an FFL that refuses to release your purchase its your own fault. There are hundreds that do release on the 8th day.



You refuse to recognize all the people in this thread that stated they have had to wait months for the firearms.  You're making an ignorant assertion that it's OUR fault that the FFL we chose isn't releasing, when we had no knowledge that this was going to happen the way it did.  At a certain point, virtually every FFL was holding for weeks/months.  It wasn't until about the June timeframe that the advisory came out clarifying they can release on day 8 at their discretion.   Some heeded this, some didn’t.  I bought my AR before this advisory came out.  Because your superior intellect (sarc) afforded you the foreknowledge to find an FFL that wasn’t playing the holding game doesn’t demand that the rest of us are a bunch of mind-numb idiots stupidly going around selecting FFLs we know are going to hold out.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> You refuse to recognize all the people in this thread that stated they have had to wait months for the firearms.  You're making an ignorant assertion that it's OUR fault that the FFL we chose isn't releasing, when we had no knowledge that this was going to happen the way it did.  At a certain point, virtually every FFL was holding for weeks/months.  It wasn't until about the June timeframe that the advisory came out clarifying they can release on day 8 at their discretion.   Some heeded this, some didn’t.  I bought my AR before this advisory came out.  Because your superior intellect (sarc) afforded you the foreknowledge to find an FFL that wasn’t playing the holding game doesn’t demand that the rest of us are a bunch of mind-numb idiots stupidly going around selecting FFLs we know are going to hold out.



That you were late to the party and ignorant of the situation doesn't change the facts or the law. I didn't do anything other than ASK MY FFLs when I would be able to pick up my gun. That's all it took. I didn't have any problem finding a local FFL that was releasing on time. 

My original comment on the 8th day releas, the one you took so much offense to, was "how long are people waiting to get their guns these days". My answer remains the same; if you are waiting more than 8 days it's your own fault. 

If you don't agree with the idea of 8th day release, by all means buy from a dealer that refuses to give you your property.


----------



## NextJen

I just received an email from Maryland State Senator, Nancy Jacobs concerning SB 281.  Here it is:

Dear Gun Rights Advocate:   

New Gun Regulations NOT fully posted on Maryland Register  as promised. 

I want to provide you with an update concerning the new gun law that is to go into effect on October 1, 2013. 

I am on the Administrative, Executive and Legislative Review Committee (AELR) of the Md. General Assembly. The AELR committee reviews proposed regulations. As you may already know, the MD State Police (MSP) is responsible for promulgating the regulations to implement the new gun law (SB 281).

As a member of the AELR committee, I was given a draft copy of the new proposed regulations to comment on before they were to have been published on September 6 in the Maryland Register. Once published (and official), the regulations will be open to public comment.

However, they are not publishing the entire set of new regulations on September 6 as promised. They have only published an abbreviated section of the definitions.

The more important set of the regulations dealing with hand gun permits were only "introduced" on their web site.  They did not publish the full text of these regulations, but rather a two sentence line of introduction:  "Chapter 13 of the Acts of 1972, Codified as Public Safety Article, Title 5, Subtitle 3, Annotated Code of Maryland (Handgun Permit Law), provided for the Secretary of State Police to issue handgun permits under specified conditions.  The following regulations have been adopted pursuant to this legislation."  There is nothing else posted after this line.

I have my own thoughts as to why they are not being fully published at this time.  First and foremost, I think the law was extremely poorly written.  SB 281 was filled with a lot of ambiguities and incorrect information that I believe the MSP is finding difficult to correct through these regulations.

I had hoped to be able to share my own review of these regulations once they had officially been published on the web site of the Maryland Register. I expect they are making changes to them as we speak and just haven't finished with them as of yet.

The Maryland Register is published twice a month on a Friday.  By law, regulations must be posted for public review and comment. September 20th is the next Friday that new regulations will be posted on their web site.  

That web site is: Maryland Register Online Homepage.

I will be back in touch with you as I learn more.

Nancy


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> That you were late to the party and ignorant of the situation doesn't change the facts or the law. I didn't do anything other than ASK MY FFLs when I would be able to pick up my gun. That's all it took. I didn't have any problem finding a local FFL that was releasing on time.
> 
> My original comment on the 8th day releas, the one you took so much offense to, was "how long are people waiting to get their guns these days". My answer remains the same; if you are waiting more than 8 days it's your own fault.
> 
> If you don't agree with the idea of 8th day release, by all means buy from a dealer that refuses to give you your property.



Let express this at the apparent level you seem to exist:

Whatever dude!


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> Let express this at the apparent level you seem to exist:
> 
> Whatever dude!



I cant help it if you were ignorant of what was going on.


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

If he purchased from an FFL prior to 8 day release and they are not going to allow after 8 day release becomes legal. How is it his fault?


----------



## Midnightrider

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> If he purchased from an FFL prior to 8 day release and they are not going to allow after 8 day release becomes legal. How is it his fault?



there was no "prior to 8th day release" unless you mean prior to the 7 day waiting period. At worst there was a short period where FFls were coerced into not releaseing on time for a couple weeks.  But my comment was about current purchases. If you go buy something now and you choose a place that doesn't release on time, it is your own fault.


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> I cant help it if you were ignorant of what was going on.



Me and tens of thousands of others STILL waiting to receive their firearms. All these ignorant stupid people launching lawsuits, were just too stupid to know what's going on.  Only you, oh brilliant one, were smart enough.

Right


----------



## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> there was no "prior to 8th day release" unless you mean prior to the 7 day waiting period. At worst there was a short period where FFls were coerced into not releaseing on time for a couple weeks.  But my comment was about current purchases. If you go buy something now and you choose a place that doesn't release on time, it is your own fault.



Mine wasn't a current purchase and I've stated so a number of times.  Your ignorance is your own fault because you're too busy trying to point out how stupid everyone else is.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> Me and tens of thousands of others STILL waiting to receive their firearms. All these ignorant stupid people launching lawsuits, were just too stupid to know what's going on.  Only you, oh brilliant one, were smart enough.
> 
> Right



i'm one of many, many, many people who did their research. I am certainly not the only brilliant one who was smart enough.

 which lawsuits are you talking about?


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> Mine wasn't a current purchase and I've stated so a number of times.  Your ignorance is your own fault because you're too busy trying to point out how stupid everyone else is.



what date did you make your purchase?


----------



## Shaolin_Raptor

Midnightrider said:


> there was no "prior to 8th day release" unless you mean prior to the 7 day waiting period. At worst there was a short period where FFls were coerced into not releaseing on time for a couple weeks.  But my comment was about current purchases. If you go buy something now and you choose a place that doesn't release on time, it is your own fault.



Yes, 7 days to wait, pick up on 8th. 8th day release. Prior to MSP saying that it was legal, it was a loophole that very very few FFL's were willing to use. I waited a month before I got my weapons on the 8th day release waiver. If you purchased a weapon after the 8th day release waiver and you still don't get it after 8 days it is your own fault. All others are exempt.


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## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> what date did you make your purchase?



My AR was May 6.  The advisory came out in June.


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## Midnightrider

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Yes, 7 days to wait, pick up on 8th. 8th day release. Prior to MSP saying that it was legal, it was a loophole that very very few FFL's were willing to use. I waited a month before I got my weapons on the 8th day release waiver. If you purchased a weapon after the 8th day release waiver and you still don't get it after 8 days it is your own fault. All others are exempt.



It wasnt a loophole, it was the law. No advisory from the MSP changed the law, it only reinforced the correct reading of the law. I have bought many regulated firearms prior to June and got them on the 8th day.


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## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> My AR was May 6.  The advisory came out in June.



Which means you choose to let the dealer hold your weapon. You could have canceled the purchase or asked that it be transferred to an 8th day dealer. 
Don't take it so personally. As I said before, I stopped using my preferred FFL because he held my wife's purchase longer than he should have. We chose to leave it there and wait because be was the only one that had that gun and he assured us it would be released as soon as possible. Waiting more than 8 days was our own fault in that instance. The dealer had no legal reason to hold the gun and actually released it prior to getting the ND back. But because of their policy I went back to a tried and true 8th day dealer for my other purchases.


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## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> Which means you choose to let the dealer hold your weapon. You could have canceled the purchase or asked that it be transferred to an 8th day dealer.
> Don't take it so personally. As I said before, I stopped using my preferred FFL because he held my wife's purchase longer than he should have. We chose to leave it there and wait because be was the only one that had that gun and he assured us it would be released as soon as possible. Waiting more than 8 days was our own fault in that instance. The dealer had no legal reason to hold the gun and actually released it prior to getting the ND back. But because of their policy I went back to a tried and true 8th day dealer for my other purchases.



I could not cancel, I bought online, had the gun shipped to my FFL, then the fun began.  The FFL receive the AR on 4 May.  I filled the papers out on 6 May.  There was no changing things after-the-fact.

You need to stop assuming you have everything figured out.  Instead of taking your typical condescending tone, you should give honest folks the benefit of the doubt.  The buyer is not the problem here.


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## Shaolin_Raptor

You are a penis. It must be nice to "know" everything while knowing nothing.


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## Shaolin_Raptor

PsyOps said:


> I could not cancel, I bought online, had the gun shipped to my FFL, then the fun began.  The FFL receive the AR on 4 May.  I filled the papers out on 6 May.  There was no changing things after-the-fact.
> 
> You need to stop assuming you have everything figured out.  Instead of taking your typical condescending tone, you should give honest folks the benefit of the doubt.  The buyer is not the problem here.



Give up, that guy is a dip####.


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## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> . No advisory from the MSP changed the law, it only reinforced the correct reading of the law.



It sure as heck did! Especially at the end of the advisory where the MSP said this:



> “The Maryland State Police thanks all Maryland firearms dealers for their continued patience and *continues to encourage all sellers, lessors and transferors to wait until the Maryland State Police completes its investigation, conducts all checks, and approves the sale, lease or transfer of the regulated firearm before releasing or transferring the firearm*.”



But who cares what they say.....amirite?


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## PsyOps

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Give up, that guy is a dip####.



I know.... I know


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## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> I could not cancel, I bought online, had the gun shipped to my FFL, then the fun began.  The FFL receive the AR on 4 May.  I filled the papers out on 6 May.  There was no changing things after-the-fact.
> 
> You need to stop assuming you have everything figured out.  Instead of taking your typical condescending tone, you should give honest folks the benefit of the doubt.  The buyer is not the problem here.



I didn't take any condescending tone, you immediately took offense because you felt slighted. I didn't make you wait for your gun and I didn't keep you in the dark as to when you would receive it. Did you ask when it would be released prior to arranging the transfer? Did you ask when you filed out the paperwork? Did you ask to have it transferred to an 8th day shop after you found out it wouldn't be released on the 8th day?

It's a simple case of buyer beware. Who else is there to blame?


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## Midnightrider

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> You are a penis. It must be nice to "know" everything while knowing nothing.



You have been shown to be wrong and now you are calling names.


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## Shaolin_Raptor

Midnightrider said:


> You have been shown to be wrong and now you are calling names. :bidwhoop:



Wrong by who's standards? The penis? I don't count that as wrong, penis. Facts are facts and you continuously ignore them. Fact.


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## Midnightrider

Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Wrong by who's standards? The penis? I don't count that as wrong, penis. Facts are facts and you continuously ignore them. Fact.



you mean the facts that you made up? 



Shaolin_Raptor said:


> Yes, 7 days to wait, pick up on 8th. 8th day release. *Prior to MSP saying that it was legal, it was a loophole that very very few FFL's were willing to use*. I waited a month before I got my weapons on the 8th day release waiver. If you purchased a weapon after the 8th day release waiver and you still don't get it after 8 days it is your own fault. All others are exempt.



its the law, not a loophole.

why are you so infatuated with men's genitalia?


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## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> Did you ask to have it transferred to an 8th day shop after you found out it wouldn't be released on the 8th day?
> 
> ?



How many "8 day shops" *were* there in Md back in May?


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## Gilligan

Midnightrider said:


> its the law, not a loophole.



When MSP issues guidance like this....




> “The Maryland State Police thanks all Maryland firearms dealers for their continued patience and *continues to encourage all sellers, lessors and transferors to wait until the Maryland State Police completes its investigation, conducts all checks, and approves the sale, lease or transfer of the regulated firearm before releasing or transferring the firearm.*”


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## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> I didn't take any condescending tone, you immediately took offense because you felt slighted. I didn't make you wait for your gun and I didn't keep you in the dark as to when you would receive it. Did you ask when it would be released prior to arranging the transfer? Did you ask when you filed out the paperwork? Did you ask to have it transferred to an 8th day shop after you found out it wouldn't be released on the 8th day?
> 
> It's a simple case of buyer beware. Who else is there to blame?



When you run around this forum telling folks they have reading comprehension problems (which is your default retort for just about anything), are uneducated, and claiming things are their fault when you have no clue about anyone in this forum, that is quite condescending.   I’m not the least offended by anything you post because it’s what most of us have come to expect from you; low-end dialog that tends more towards personal besmirchment than subject-related.  I’m not answering anymore of your ridiculous questions because it should be blatantly obvious to you by now what those answers are.  You already know more than I should have told you anyway.


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## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> When you run around this forum telling folks they have reading comprehension problems (which is your default retort for just about anything), are uneducated, and claiming things are their fault when you have no clue about anyone in this forum, that is quite condescending.   I’m not the least offended by anything you post because it’s what most of us have come to expect from you; low-end dialog that tends more towards personal besmirchment than subject-related.  I’m not answering anymore of your ridiculous questions because it should be blatantly obvious to you by now what those answers are.  You already know more than I should have told you anyway.



rojectmuch:

There is nothing low end about my dialog, you and raptor are the ones throwing around names and making personal attacks. 

If you don't want to talk about it, don't. :shrug:
But here is one last ridiculous question. Who's fault is it that the FFL you chose made you wait for over 100 days to take possession of your own property?


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## PsyOps

Midnightrider said:


> But here is one last ridiculous question. Who's fault is it that the FFL you chose made you wait for over 100 days to take possession of your own property?



You're right, it was a ridiculous question.



Midnightrider said:


> If you don't want to talk about it, don't. :shrug:



okay


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## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> You're right, it was a ridiculous question.
> 
> 
> 
> okay



So you are in the "blame others for your own poor decisions" camp. I see


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## nutz

Midnightrider said:


> But here is one last ridiculous question. Who's fault is it that the FFL you chose made you wait for over 100 days to take possession of your own property?



gansler and the other wonderful Md. political affiliates.


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## nutz

Made the adventure to Bob's Sunoco over the weekend. Nice place and nice people.


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## Chris0nllyn

FYI, the state is pulling in other employees to put gun applicant info into spreadsheets.

http://www.associatedgunclubs.org/legislative/temporary/AGC_Press_Release.pdf

This is against the law according to COMAR 29.03.01.06 which expressly states, "*The State Police* shall review the application for accuracy, omissions, or discrepancies before investigating the applicant".


Keep in mind the past incidents with Md employees....

1.  13 Corrections officers indicted in MD accused of aiding gang's drug scheme April 23, 2013   

Md. MVA Employee Charged in ID Card Sales (washingtonpost.com)

2.  Joann Fleishell, Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration worker, convicted of stealing nearly $88,000 in Frederick, MD. March 25, 2012

Joann Fleishell Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration worker convicted of stealing nearly $88,000 in Frederick, Md. | wusa9.com

3.  Former Maryland MVA employee pleads guilty to conspiracy to fraudulently produce and sell Maryland driver's licenses - Accepted bribes to issue licenses to applicants who had failed the written and driving tests September 7, 2012.

Former Maryland MVA employee pleads guilty to conspiracy to fraudulently produce and sell Maryland driver's licenses

4.  MVA Employees nabbed in Maryland driver's license and ID card scam September 10, 2009.

MVA employees nabbed in Maryland driver's license and ID card scam - National Law Enforcement | Examiner.com

5.  Former correctional officer arrested for bringing drugs to inmate August 25, 2010.

Former Correctional Officer Arrested for Bringing Drugs to Inmate - News and Features - Baltimore City Paper

6.  MD MVA Employee Charged in ID Card Sales April 23, 2005

Former Correctional Officer Arrested for Bringing Drugs to Inmate - News and Features - Baltimore City Paper


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## So_what

Gilligan said:


> List? TIA.



Maybe not hundreds but: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmvWDPHXUFiidGhOYk1MbEJMYTJTRVdGaXBNX0lQUVE&usp=sharing#gid=0
I believe most all SOMD FFL's are releasing after 8 days, some with restrictions (previous purchase through them), sign a waiver, or just wait the 8 days.


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## So_what

Chris0nllyn said:


> FYI, the state is pulling in other employees to put gun applicant info into spreadsheets.
> 
> http://www.associatedgunclubs.org/legislative/temporary/AGC_Press_Release.pdf
> 
> This is against the law according to COMAR 29.03.01.06 which expressly states, "*The State Police* shall review the application for accuracy, omissions, or discrepancies before investigating the applicant".........



For those not understanding, your form 77R lists your name, address, SSN and other Personal Identifying Information. If someone (not MSP) gets a hold of your information, what can happen? :shrug: If you have a security clearance for your job on the base, this could create big problems.


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## smilin

I wish we had representation like Sen. Nancy Jacobs here. Not only does she answer emails but sends out updates like this.
She has addressed the sharing of private information in an earlier update. 



Dear Pro Gun and Privacy Advocate:

WE HAVE RECEIVED INFORMATION THAT THE SITE WHERE YOU CAN READ THE COMAR REGULATIONS IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION AT THIS TIME. HOPEFULLY, IT WILL BE UP AND RUNNING SHORTLY.  KEEP TRYING.

PLEASE NOTE THE CORRECT ADDRESS FOR THE HEARING.

PLEASE SAVE THE DATE:  The hearing for the gun regulations (COMAR 29.03.01.01 Weapons Regulations:  Regulated Firearms; and COMAR 29.03.02.01 Weapons Regulations:  Handgun Permit Unit) on the implementation of Senate Bill 281 
has been scheduled for September 23, 2013 at 1:00 p.m. in the Joint Hearing Room, 90 State Circle, Legislative Services Building, Annapolis, MD (next to Lawyer's Mall).


Read the latest article, "Senator calls for federal investigation of firearms application processing" here.

Let's show them we aren't going to take this sitting down.  Please come to Annapolis on September 23.


Senator Nancy C. Jacobs


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## RPMDAD

I wish we even had a delegate like Mike Smigiel from the Eastern Shore.

Delegate Mike Smigiel | The Official Website of Delegate Mike Smigiel, the 36th District


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## NextJen

This was posted on FB from Maryland Shall Issue:

"We are looking for a few people willing to speak on camera about the 77R privacy issue for an interview with Baltimore Channel 11. If your interested, please contact info@marylandshallissue.org. It would be a shame to miss this media opportunity because no one will speak up."


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## smilin

*You knew it was coming*

Just received this from Senator Nancy Jacobs office.

Gun-rights activists sue Maryland to block new firearms law | Fox News


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## itsbob

Are the new laws based on purchase date or delivery date?


i.e. IF somebody were to buy a handgun today (or Monday) do they only have to wait the 7-8 days and take delivery, or do they fall under the new laws and have to take the class.. rectal exam etc??


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## itsbob

Never mind.. 

"20 Sep is the last day we can process handguns under the current law"


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## NextJen

itsbob said:


> Are the new laws based on purchase date or delivery date?
> 
> 
> i.e. IF somebody were to buy a handgun today (or Monday) do they only have to wait the 7-8 days and take delivery, or do they fall under the new laws and have to take the class.. rectal exam etc??




http://forums.somd.com/news-current-events/279713-breaking-news-marylanders-who-want-handguns.html

Maryland Shall Issue had posted that if you purchased your handgun before Oct. 1 you were not required to have the HQL. So, if I'm reading that correctly, you can still purchase thru Sept. 30 and not have to go through the training even if you pick up after Oct. 1.  

Am I right?


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## Tilted

NextJen said:


> http://forums.somd.com/news-current-events/279713-breaking-news-marylanders-who-want-handguns.html
> 
> Maryland Shall Issue had posted that if you purchased your handgun before Oct. 1 you were not required to have the HQL. So, if I'm reading that correctly, you can still purchase thru Sept. 30 and not have to go through the training even if you pick up after Oct. 1.
> 
> Am I right?



At the last minute the MSP announced that it was, in essence, going to ignore the new law in this regard. By law, in order to take possession of the handgun on October 1st or after you would have to get a HQL, even if you'd submitted an application and paid for / ordered the handgun before that date. But the MSP is saying it won't enforce that law, that it will allow people to take possession of the handgun on or after October 1st (without a HQL) so long as they submitted the application before that date.

For my own part, I'd be leery of doing so. You're still violating the law, the MSP can't change that. Other entities could still choose to enforce the law (e.g. local state's attorney, Maryland AG, sheriff's departments which could initiate the process). Now, I suspect those other entities will go along and not enforce the law either. But it leaves a pretty clearly illegal act out there that could be used against you later if someone really wanted to.

As for dealers releasing the handguns to people, relying on this announcement from the MSP, they should be particularly leery. I probably would not so release them if I were a dealer. It is against the law, and the MSP (and every relevant prosecutor for that matter) choosing not to prosecute the violation won't necessarily protect the dealer from potential future civil liability. If that handgun were later used illegally, or used to harm or kill someone by accident, a civil claim might be brought against the dealer based on the fact that they had illegally sold the handgun. Again, the MSP doesn't get to change the law - it just gets to choose not to enforce it (criminally) under certain circumstances. Absent a declaratory injunction from a court saying it's alright to release the handguns (which isn't going to happen because the language in the law, and the legislative history, make it clear that it isn't legal), dealers probably shouldn't release handguns on or after October 1st without HQLs.


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## PsyOps

Vince said:


> S&W M&P .223?  Put some good optics on it and it will shoot very well for you.



What do you recommend?


----------



## Chris0nllyn

EOTech


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## PsyOps

Chris0nllyn said:


> EOTech



Lots to choose from.  Expensive too.


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## Chris0nllyn

PsyOps said:


> Lots to choose from.  Expensive too.



Best of the best though.

You can always go with flip-up iron sights.


----------



## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> Lots to choose from.  Expensive too.



if you plan to use it for defense get a reflex sight, a low mag (maybe 4x) wide field of view scope, or iron sights as chris suggested. if you plan on using it for target shooting at distance, the sky is your limit. they make some pretty fancy scopes that are designed around that load.

i'd go with the iron sights, but thats just me


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## PsyOps

Chris0nllyn said:


> Best of the best though.
> 
> You can always go with flip-up iron sights.





Midnightrider said:


> if you plan to use it for defense get a reflex sight, a low mag (maybe 4x) wide field of view scope, or iron sights as chris suggested. if you plan on using it for target shooting at distance, the sky is your limit. they make some pretty fancy scopes that are designed around that load.
> 
> i'd go with the iron sights, but thats just me



Already have a flip up.  I'm looking more for a scope - for distance/range shooting.


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## Midnightrider

PsyOps said:


> Already have a flip up.  I'm looking more for a scope - for distance/range shooting.



i have a BSA sweet 17 on my 17 HMR. it was reasonably priced and does a great job out to 250-300 yards.
i beleive they make one for the 223 that is also dialed in for that round.


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## Chris0nllyn

PsyOps said:


> Already have a flip up.  I'm looking more for a scope - for distance/range shooting.



ACOG may be another option.


Personally, whenever I actually finish my rifle, I'm going to go with flip up iron sights, and a small scope.

Nothing with batteries.


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## Gilligan

My long-ish range rifle scope is a POSP, 1000 meter version. Amazing optics and functionality for the price. You can always find them for a good price on eBay.


----------

