# Apollo may have liver cancer....or maybe not



## vraiblonde

Here's what happened, and read the whole thing because I need advice:

Monday Apollo started vomiting his food.  He was otherwise perky and normal, so I didn't think too much about it.

Tuesday he was vomiting to the point of bringing up empty-tummy foam and he was lethargic - clearly not feeling well.  So I removed his water for 5-6 hours and food for 24 hours.  

Wednesday he ate a little chicken and rice for breakfast at 7am, and around noon barfed it back up.  Now it's gone on too long and my Dr. Mom skills are tapped out, so I called the vet and took him into doggie urgent care.

They took his temp (normal), then the vet came in and said they were going to do some blood work.  She didn't examine Apollo or even really look at him.  Tech comes in and takes him off to get blood.  Brought him back, and a few minutes later the vet reappears and says his white count is high and his liver enzymes are enormously high, they're going to do another blood test to make sure.  She said he's also slightly dehydrated and she wants to inject him with something to re-hydrate him.

So off he goes to get more blood taken and re-hydrate.  After the tech brings him back, the vet shows up and says he appears to have liver cancer but she won't know for sure unless she opens him up to take a look.  She wants to hospitalize him (to the tune of $1200/day) to monitor his behavior, then do exploratory surgery.  By this time I'm upset and crying, I told her I can't justify spending upwards of $10,000 on a 13 year old dog with no guarantees of success.

She said fine, they'll treat the symptoms (vomiting and infection) with medication and see where it goes from there.  So Apollo is on an anti-emetic and amoxicillin.

The more I thought about this exchange the more suspicious I became because I hate doctors anyway, and especially vets because so many of them prey on the owner's emotions to rack up big fees.  I'm trying to be realistic and not let that come into play, because I want what's best for Apollo but again, I can't justify laying down $10k for them to "explore".

So what I'm going to do is run the course of the meds and see if that doesn't do the trick.  If it does, yay.  If it doesn't, then that's that.  If he does have liver cancer there's nothing to be done about it anyway, and if he doesn't that means the vet lied to me.  Either way, I think I'm done with them and will be looking for another vet.  

Thoughts?  Advice?


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## Dakota

vraiblonde said:


> Thoughts?  Advice?




Ugh - sorry he isn't feeling well and I really have no advice.  

No matter what happens, Apollo has lived an amazing life - not all dogs get to travel, as he has, and have his owner around so much.  I also agree at 13, I would not bite big vet bills at this point.

They didn't mention if this could be pancreatitis? 

My 16 year old JRT has had a few episodes and her liver enzymes always skyrocket.  We have to ensure she drinks lot of water, chicken, rice, pumpkin and within a week she feels better.  She had her first incident when she was 12-13 years old.

Now we limit her snacks - in fact, we are pretty strict with giving her people food now.


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## spr1975wshs

Find more of a country vet, who will actually look at and SEE Apollo.

We've lost 3 of our cats to cancer over the years (2 to intestinal lymphoma and 1 to a sublingual sarcoma).
The vets tested and diagnosed properly, but outside of heroic measures, only were able to offer palliative care, which did ease the girls into a least worst ending after several more pretty good months.


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## jazz lady

vraiblonde said:


> I told her I can't justify spending upwards of $10,000 on a 13 year old dog with no guarantees of success.


^this^   I haven't had experience with liver cancer with dogs, but it is very aggressive and always fatal.  

Good luck on your journey.


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## Dakota

My husband just corrected me and said that although she had pancreatitis - he thought the anti-Inflammatory was the cause of the increased liver enzymes.  It all was around the same time.


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## black dog

Folks call me harsh, I call myself responable.
if any of my pets or animals are suffering and quality of life for it is gone, the responsibility lies on the owner to put the pet/animal to sleep.
I also have a dollar amount with an animials well being. At that age 1,200 a day is way past what I would consider spending.
Apollo is now into his fourth day, do him a favor and give him a hug and let the vet put him to sleep.

Sorry its no fun.
 Edit... Try to remember, is one trying to keep a pet alive for the pets sake or the owners sake.


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## Kyle

When our last Malamute Emma was about 14-1/2 she got diagnosed with cancer.

We opted for meds to ease any pain, plenty of attention, exercise, play, good food, treats etc. There was little point in doing much else.

As it progressed she lost weight, tried to give her plenty to eat, more calorie packed foods and treats etc. and when she finally started losing appetite and her weight started dropping faster, energy gone and no longer the happy girl she'd been, it was apparent I had to pick a day.

I opted to have the vet come to the house so she was in a familiar, comfortable place to pass.

I really didn't see much point in pursuing some miserable chemo-type or radiation treatments, as there is no way to explain to the poor animal that its really supposed to help them.


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## ontheriver

I have so many stories to tell about all kinds of animals I have adored during my life.  I'll spare you.
Vets will absolutely play you for money.  I believe at some point they lose touch with their emotions, because they have to, to do their job.  (I always thought that about lawyers too)

Apollo has had an amazing life with you.  At some point you have to realize that you can extend their life, but's it's more about you wanting to keep them...  you can't.   LOVE him, ADORE him and keep him comfortable as much as you can.

With my Cody, it was devastating.  But, if I had put him through things that wouldn't make him young again, I would have been doing it for me, ... not him.


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## Christy

I would find a non-emergency vet to handle this.  Friend of mine's dog was diagnosed with liver cancer and given maybe 6 months.  It has been 3 years.  She quit feeding her dog kibble and makes her food.  She wasn't expecting her to live longer than the 6 months, but is pleasantly surprised that she is.  The main thing is to keep Apollo comfortable, a regular vet can help with that.  I would not sign on to any invasive surgeries.  Poor little thing should live out the remainder of his days in the least amount of pain and trauma as possible.


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## rio

Sounds to me like you're doing and have done just what you should.


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## vraiblonde

black dog said:


> Folks call me harsh, I call myself responable.
> if any of my pets or animals are suffering and quality of life for it is gone, the responsibility lies on the owner to put the pet/animal to sleep.
> I also have a dollar amount with an animials well being. At that age 1,200 a day is way past what I would consider spending.
> Apollo is now into his fourth day, do him a favor and give him a hug and let the vet put him to sleep.
> 
> Sorry its no fun.
> Edit... Try to remember, is one trying to keep a pet alive for the pets sake or the owners sake.



I agree with this and after sobbing most of yesterday I'm at peace with it if that's the way it goes.  But I also don't want to be premature because once he's euthanized all second-guessing is over.  He has amoxicillin for 10 days.  If he doesn't show improvement in the next couple of days, I'll take him to another vet for a second opinion and make the decision from there.

He doesn't appear to be in pain, this morning he ate some boiled chicken and walked around a bit wagging his tail before he went back to napping.


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## vraiblonde

Christy said:


> I would find a non-emergency vet to handle this.  Friend of mine's dog was diagnosed with liver cancer and given maybe 6 months.  It has been 3 years.  She quit feeding her dog kibble and makes her food.  She wasn't expecting her to live longer than the 6 months, but is pleasantly surprised that she is.  The main thing is to keep Apollo comfortable, a regular vet can help with that.  I would not sign on to any invasive surgeries.  Poor little thing should live out the remainder of his days in the least amount of pain and trauma as possible.



Was the dog just being kept alive or was she able to resume her normal life, give or take?  Because if Apollo can resume his life for the most part I'm happy to make his food and do what needs to be done.  But if he's just going to be kept alive - what others said, that's more for me than him and it's not fair.


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## Grumpy

vraiblonde said:


> He doesn't appear to be in pain, this morning he ate some boiled chicken and walked around a bit wagging his tail before he went back to napping.


If not in pain, let it play out. This may sound weird, but dogs somehow let you know when they've had enough.


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## ontheriver

Grumpy said:


> If not in pain, let it play out. This may sound weird, but dogs somehow let you know when they've had enough.


This...


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## kwillia

Do not let them guilt you into excessive tests or treatment. What you are describing sounds like severe pancreatis. It can happen suddenly and is life threatening. It can happen easily in older pets given foods to fatty or rich including well means humans who think they are doing right by feeding them our real food. Schnauzers are extremely sensitive. We almost killed one ourselves.


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## kwillia

If Apollo starts feeling better my money is on pancreatitis.


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## NextJen

I'm sorry Apollo isn't feeling well. Sounds like you are already taking the right course of action. Hopefully the meds work and this works itself out. But if not, you already know what you have to do. 
Wishing Apollo and you the best!


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## PrchJrkr

NextJen said:


> I'm sorry Apollo isn't feeling well. Sounds like you are already taking the right course of action. Hopefully the meds work and this works itself out. But if not, you already know what you have to do.
> Wishing Apollo and you the best!


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## black dog

vraiblonde said:


> I agree with this and after sobbing most of yesterday I'm at peace with it if that's the way it goes.  But I also don't want to be premature because once he's euthanized all second-guessing is over.  He has amoxicillin for 10 days.  If he doesn't show improvement in the next couple of days, I'll take him to another vet for a second opinion and make the decision from there.




 Ok.. I believe I would weight him on a good digital scale to keep aneye on if hes loosing weight or not.
I also would keep an eye on his inputs and outputs, is he pooping and is his pee light or dark. 
Good luck this part of The Journey is the toughest... And certainly dont question your decision.
 You know what his quality of life is..


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## BadGirl

First off....I am so sorry for you, Monello, and your little jumping buddy, Apollo.  Truly.  

We had a similar circumstance recently with our 12 year old doggo.  She had all the attributes of a happy, healthy, and active dog....aside from the fact that she pee'd all of the time. Thankfully it was always outside.  BUT, she would hold her position for peeing, but yet little to no pee would come out most of the time.  She would assume the pee position for 5 minutes or so, and you could sense her anxiety about "needing" to pee, but not being able to.  Come to find out, she had a cancerous tumor on her bladder.  It put pressure on her bladder, leading her to think that he bladder was full - when it really wasn't.  She would just stand there trying to evacuate her bladder when it was already empty.  The local vet here didn't do much to investigate her condition, but we finally got the bladder cancer diagnosis when we hit up an emergency vet in Ocean City.  It was there that they did a sonogram and found a sizeable tumor.  We brought her home, and within a few days we scheduled her to be put down.  It was a grueling decision, because, like I said, she was otherwise healthy and happy, and she continued to  snuggle and give kisses, etc.  But her discomfort was painful to her and to us.  The morning of her euthanasia, she jumped into the back of the car with a wagging tail and a big old smile.  I felt terrible.  While I am confident it was the right decision, I am still plagued with guilt over not doing enough, not investing enough $$ into her care. but her age and condition made surgery unrealistic and offered little satisfaction of success.

Best of luck to you, Monello and Apollo.


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## Sneakers

kwillia said:


> Do not let them guilt you into excessive tests or treatment. What you are describing sounds like severe pancreatis. It can happen suddenly and is life threatening. It can happen easily in older pets given foods to fatty or rich including well means humans who think they are doing right by feeding them our real food. Schnauzers are extremely sensitive. We almost killed one ourselves.


Don't know what you're feeding him, Vrai, but if pancreatitis is suspected, maybe switch over to one of the fresh, refrigerated pet foods that they sell at PetSmart or other places.

Beyond that, I can't offer much.  Had to put down my friend many years ago, it was time.  But I felt SO guilty for such a long time,  still do, even tho it was the best for him.  It was like watching a brother pass.


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## vraiblonde

kwillia said:


> Do not let them guilt you into excessive tests or treatment. What you are describing sounds like severe pancreatis. It can happen suddenly and is life threatening. It can happen easily in older pets given foods to fatty or rich including well means humans who think they are doing right by feeding them our real food. Schnauzers are extremely sensitive. We almost killed one ourselves.



Apollo rarely gets people food and when he does it's scrambled egg or a bite of grilled chicken or a bit of Greek yogurt or carrots.  I never thought about pancreatitis, I just don't give him fatty people food because it gives him diarrhea and other gastric unpleasantries.  Nobody likes that.


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## vraiblonde

BadGirl said:


> not investing enough $$ into her care. but her age and condition made surgery unrealistic and offered little satisfaction of success.



Two stories, and you know both of these people:

The woman whose cat had a flea allergy, so the vet talked her into getting the cat a $2000 blood transfusion.  The cat died a couple days afterward.

And the guy whose vet convinced him to have a new sphincter made for his ancient on its last legs dog so it could control its bowels better.  Not 100%, now, just better.

I certainly understand how easy it is to get sucked into the emotional side of pet treatment, I just don't want to do it myself.


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## ontheriver

BadGirl said:


> First off....I am so sorry for you, Monello, and your little jumping buddy, Apollo.  Truly.
> 
> We had a similar circumstance recently with our 12 year old doggo.  She had all the attributes of a happy, healthy, and active dog....aside from the fact that she pee'd all of the time. Thankfully it was always outside.  BUT, she would hold her position for peeing, but yet little to no pee would come out most of the time.  She would assume the pee position for 5 minutes or so, and you could sense her anxiety about "needing" to pee, but not being able to.  Come to find out, she had a cancerous tumor on her bladder.  It put pressure on her bladder, leading her to think that he bladder was full - when it really wasn't.  She would just stand there trying to evacuate her bladder when it was already empty.  The local vet here didn't do much to investigate her condition, but we finally got the bladder cancer diagnosis when we hit up an emergency vet in Ocean City.  It was there that they did a sonogram and found a sizeable tumor.  We brought her home, and within a few days we scheduled her to be put down.  It was a grueling decision, because, like I said, she was otherwise healthy and happy, and she continued to  snuggle and give kisses, etc.  But her discomfort was painful to her and to us.  The morning of her euthanasia, she jumped into the back of the car with a wagging tail and a big old smile.  I felt terrible.  While I am confident it was the right decision, I am still plagued with guilt over not doing enough, not investing enough $$ into her care. but her age and condition made surgery unrealistic and offered little satisfaction of success.
> 
> Best of luck to you, Monello and Apollo.


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## kwillia

vraiblonde said:


> Apollo rarely gets people food and when he does it's scrambled egg or a bite of grilled chicken or a bit of Greek yogurt or carrots.  I never thought about pancreatitis, I just don't give him fatty people food because it gives him diarrhea and other gastric unpleasantries.  Nobody likes that.


I am always very careful with mine. She got something on her one one night and that was all she wrote.  Very sick dog for a few days. In your case, they must be seeing something specific in the blood work.   

I am of the opinion it is more humane to give them eternal slumber than to send them off to a kenneled setting away from family and then poke, prod and medicate them which they will not understand at all when we know in our heart it may only borrow some time.  But everybody has to make their own choices based on their own experiences and interactions with their animals.


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## Dakota

kwillia said:


> Do not let them guilt you into excessive tests or treatment. What you are describing sounds like severe pancreatis. It can happen suddenly and is life threatening. It can happen easily in older pets given foods to fatty or rich including well means humans who think they are doing right by feeding them our real food. Schnauzers are extremely sensitive. We almost killed one ourselves.



The first time our JRT had pancreatic issues, we were the cause.  The second time, we don't know what was the trigger.  Our bet was the food.  My husband switched her 2 or 3 years ago to Royal Canin and CROSSING FINGERS, we have had zero issues since.  He switched her food at the time my son's cat (now mine ) got severe IBS.  Our vet put kitty on Royal Canin so he just put them all on Royal Canin.


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## frequentflier

Vrai, so sorry to hear this. I hope the meds help but if they don't and he doesn't pull out of it, the kindest thing to do is let him go.

But I have to tell you- my cat, Ivy, cat  was diagnosed with pancreatitis 4 + years ago. She started acting weird and kept getting on the counters looking for food. She managed to get bacon off the stove. Lost weight, hair and bad prognosis. Raw goats milk brought her back to health and kicked out the pancreatitis and several years later, she is fat and happy (and I went and bought another case of goats milk today) 

Also our store kitty, Shy-Anne, approx age 16,  was diagnosed with cancer about 4 years ago. With a small dermal steroid treatment daily, she is living a happy life with one of my coworkers. Her prognosis was iffy. 

And last but not least, my alpha boy, Zuma, was diagnosed through blood work to have cancer 2 years ago. He is still alive and kicking. 

So my hope is the vet is wrong or at least not completely right and that Apollo sticks around for a couple more years
.
Love to you and Apollo and Monello


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## black dog

Dakota said:


> The first time our JRT had pancreatic issues, we were the cause.  The second time, we don't know what was the trigger.  Our bet was the food.  My husband switched her 2 or 3 years ago to Royal Canin and CROSSING FINGERS, we have had zero issues since.  He switched her food at the time my son's cat (now mine ) got severe IBS.  Our vet put kitty on Royal Canin so he just put them all on Royal Canin.



We do some work for Tractor Supply at a Distribution Center, never in my life have I seen so many different dog and cat foods available.
 I was given a broken 25lb bag of dry Taste of The Wild roasted bison and roasted venison. 
 That food is almost 2 bucks a pound, I torchered my Chessie for days giving him a handful as a treat each night.
 I now tend to rotate the higher end dry foods with him. He seems happier, farts less along with he digests it much better with what he leaves in the yard or field.


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## AnthonyJames

Didn't you post about him having a spot on his leg and licking it incessantly, and having to put some kind of salve on it to make him stop? He may have made himself sick from that.

Please, give him his prescribed antibiotics and something easy on his tummy to eat, like baby food if you know what flavor he may like, and a chance to recover. Hydration is extremely important also so try to get him to drink, and they do make flavored water to make it more palatable for pets if they are not used to drinking a lot. He may be a little old but he at least deserves a chance, and a second opinion.


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## Bonehead

Grumpy said:


> If not in pain, let it play out. This may sound weird, but dogs somehow let you know when they've had enough.


Most animals will. Most just go away and die on their own terms. I hope to have the same option.


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## Dakota

AnthonyJames said:


> *Didn't you post about him having a spot on his leg and licking it incessantly, and having to put some kind of salve on it to make him stop? He may have made himself sick from that.*
> 
> Please, give him his prescribed antibiotics and something easy on his tummy to eat, like baby food if you know what flavor he may like, and a chance to recover. Hydration is extremely important also so try to get him to drink, and they do make flavored water to make it more palatable for pets if they are not used to drinking a lot. He may be a little old but he at least deserves a chance, and a second opinion.



Wow - excellent point!


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## limblips

You are living my fear.  My eldest is 12 and has a history of bladder stones.  Expensive surgery and prescription food for life.  If the time comes to make the decision just remember it is the hardest right thing you will ever do.

As for vets pushing things (ours current ones are the best) we took him to the vet for his annual and talked about his increasing neurosis with thunder and lightning.  The vet told us we could start a "behavior modification" program consisting of drugs and immersion training.  My wife asked how long would this go on the response was it could be 6 years or so.  He was 8 at the time.  Wife told her he would likely be dead before the treatment was over.  Last trip to that vet.  He now gets a Trazadone an hour before a storm and is usually fine.


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## Sneakers

limblips said:


> He now gets a Trazadone an hour before a storm and is usually fine.


I have friends with a pup that did the same, fine forever, then one bad July 4th he got gun shy, and progressively got worse.  He now gets trazadone, zanax and a thundershirt.


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## Monello

Happy to report that the vomit meds seem to be working.  Apollo has eaten and kept his food down.  He's also a lot perkier today when compared to yesterday.  Yesterday he barely raised his head when he was laying down.  Today he's showing a lot of his normal behaviors.  He's not running around, tearing the place up.  But he isn't laying around barely moving either.  I think if he can keep food down he will get his strength back and be more of his old self again.


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## vraiblonde

AnthonyJames said:


> Didn't you post about him having a spot on his leg and licking it incessantly, and having to put some kind of salve on it to make him stop? He may have made himself sick from that.



I put Neosporin on it and it was either bandaged or he had the Cone of Shame on so he couldn't get to it.  I don't think it's that, but it's possible.

Anyway, I'm switching vets.  IMO you start on the lower end of things that could be wrong, treat them, then move up if needed.  You don't start at DEFCON 1.  This vet came out of the gate talking about hospitalization and surgery and liver cancer.  And that may still be the case, but he seems to be improving just since this afternoon.  He had a small dinner of sweet potato and boiled chicken, and earlier he had some mashed banana with peanut butter.  Not as much as he normally eats but it's something.

We'll see what tomorrow brings but I am cautiously optimistic, as opposed to this morning when I thought his demise was imminent and yesterday when I was scared he wouldn't make it through the night.


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## vraiblonde

limblips said:


> You are living my fear.  My eldest is 12 and has a history of bladder stones.  Expensive surgery and prescription food for life.  If the time comes to make the decision just remember it is the hardest right thing you will ever do.
> 
> As for vets pushing things (ours current ones are the best) we took him to the vet for his annual and talked about his increasing neurosis with thunder and lightning.  The vet told us we could start a "behavior modification" program consisting of drugs and immersion training.  My wife asked how long would this go on the response was it could be 6 years or so.  He was 8 at the time.  Wife told her he would likely be dead before the treatment was over.  Last trip to that vet.  He now gets a Trazadone an hour before a storm and is usually fine.



I'm  that your thunderstorm problem has been solved and   that the first vet wanted to soak you financially.  I hate not being able to "trust the professionals".


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## AnthonyJames

vraiblonde said:


> We'll see what tomorrow brings but I am cautiously optimistic, as opposed to this morning when I thought his demise was imminent and yesterday when I was scared he wouldn't make it through the night.


Glad I may have gotten through to you. That's what I was trying to convey.

I wish Apollo the best.


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## mitzi

Poor little guy.  I hope he continues to feel better each day.


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## DoWhat

@vraiblonde 
How is Apollo feeling this morning?


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## black dog

DoWhat said:


> @vraiblonde
> How is Apollo feeling this morning?



No news is good news...


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## spr1975wshs

black dog said:


> Edit... Try to remember, is one trying to keep a pet alive for the pets sake or the owners sake.


We have a quality of life mental checklist for watching the critters and making that hard decision to let them go as peacefully as possible.


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## vraiblonde

DoWhat said:


> @vraiblonde
> How is Apollo feeling this morning?



He's a bit more sluggish today and not eating a lot, but not to the point that I'm alarmed.  Thank you for asking


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## DoWhat

vraiblonde said:


> He's a bit more sluggish today and not eating a lot, but not to the point that I'm alarmed.  Thank you for asking


We care about our little forum pup.


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## Kyle

vraiblonde said:


> He's a bit more sluggish today and not eating a lot, but not to the point that I'm alarmed.  Thank you for asking


Hope he gets better soon.


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## RoseRed

vraiblonde said:


> He's a bit more sluggish today and not eating a lot, but not to the point that I'm alarmed.  Thank you for asking


I'm sorry.


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## black dog

spr1975wshs said:


> We have a quality of life mental checklist for watching the critters and making that hard decision to let them go as peacefully as possible.



I do also with my pets, i've always had labs or the last two are chessies. I don't put them down when they don't want to work or swim any longer.
 Its a happy dog that can lounge next to the wood stove with knowlwdge one of those hamburgers or steaks going on the grill is his. And no Montreal on his. 
 About half of the time its been cancer in the underbelly with the females i've had. 
 I also have always taken my dogs to the vet once a year for checkups.
 Usually the bad starts with a house accident, and with that i'm really watching.


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## vraiblonde

So my next dilemma is how I'm going to punish that vet who freaked me out, tried to shake me down for thousand$, and more importantly had me seriously considering euthanizing Apollo.

I have already imagined various scenes of extreme violence, but that doesn't seem a reasonable way to go.  But I might change my mind.

I don't really have anything lawsuit worthy or that would be my first avenue of retribution.  I could lodge a complaint with their parent company but that seems like a waste of time - nothing ever gets done about that stuff.  I'll certainly detail my experience in a Google review to warn others.

I'm just thinking of someone who trusts "authority" either shelling out unnecessary big bucks or (shudder) mistakenly putting their pet down based on this psychotic's recommendation.   She needs to pay for this and be strongly encouraged to never do it again.

Any ideas?


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## ontheriver

vraiblonde said:


> So my next dilemma is how I'm going to punish that vet who freaked me out, tried to shake me down for thousand$, and more importantly had me seriously considering euthanizing Apollo.
> 
> I have already imagined various scenes of extreme violence, but that doesn't seem a reasonable way to go.  But I might change my mind.
> 
> I don't really have anything lawsuit worthy or that would be my first avenue of retribution.  I could lodge a complaint with their parent company but that seems like a waste of time - nothing ever gets done about that stuff.  I'll certainly detail my experience in a Google review to warn others.
> 
> I'm just thinking of someone who trusts "authority" either shelling out unnecessary big bucks or (shudder) mistakenly putting their pet down based on this psychotic's recommendation.   She needs to pay for this and be strongly encouraged to never do it again.
> 
> Any ideas?



Just take care of Apollo...  That vet is just what they do.  As much as I would like to lash out, I know I can't change a thing about their (the Vet's) heart.  It's mostly about money, and sadly, they don't care about your feelings, or even Apollo.  I'm sure some Vets do, but after some time they fall right in line with the money.


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## Sneakers

vraiblonde said:


> Any ideas?


Does he have a website?  You could launch a hate campaign and deride him unmercifully.  Use all your social media sources.  I don't think anyone has ever tried that before.... what could possibly go wrong?


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## Kyle

I would get a second opinion and let it go.


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## stgislander

vraiblonde said:


> So my next dilemma is how I'm going to punish that vet who freaked me out, tried to shake me down for thousand$, and more importantly had me seriously considering euthanizing Apollo.
> 
> I have already imagined various scenes of extreme violence, but that doesn't seem a reasonable way to go.  But I might change my mind.
> 
> I don't really have anything lawsuit worthy or that would be my first avenue of retribution.  I could lodge a complaint with their parent company but that seems like a waste of time - nothing ever gets done about that stuff.  I'll certainly detail my experience in a Google review to warn others.
> 
> I'm just thinking of someone who trusts "authority" either shelling out unnecessary big bucks or (shudder) mistakenly putting their pet down based on this psychotic's recommendation.   She needs to pay for this and be strongly encouraged to never do it again.
> 
> Any ideas?


Maybe Black Dog could come down and snipe him from 1 or 2000 yards out.


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## stgislander

stgislander said:


> Maybe Black Dog could come down and snipe him from 1 or 2000 yards out.


That's what I get for watching too many movie head shot clips on YouTube.


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## black dog

vraiblonde said:


> So my next dilemma is how I'm going to punish that vet who freaked me out, tried to shake me down for thousand$, and more importantly had me seriously considering euthanizing Apollo.
> 
> I have already imagined various scenes of extreme violence, but that doesn't seem a reasonable way to go.  But I might change my mind.
> 
> I don't really have anything lawsuit worthy or that would be my first avenue of retribution.  I could lodge a complaint with their parent company but that seems like a waste of time - nothing ever gets done about that stuff.  I'll certainly detail my experience in a Google review to warn others.
> 
> I'm just thinking of someone who trusts "authority" either shelling out unnecessary big bucks or (shudder) mistakenly putting their pet down based on this psychotic's recommendation.   She needs to pay for this and be strongly encouraged to never do it again.
> 
> Any ideas?



Your a internet girl... Blow there sh!t up on Facebook....


----------



## vraiblonde

Kyle said:


> I would get a second opinion and let it go.



I am going to write the review, though.  Because if the vet says they have all these things wrong with them, and you euthanize your pet based on their diagnosis, and that diagnosis is BS or there was a viable course of action besides putting the pet down, how would you ever know?  You'd just kill a beloved pet that could have been treated with simple medication and be none the wiser.

< rant >

This is why I hate doctors (and car mechanics, and lawyers, and pretty much anyone you have to trust).  So many of them are money grubbing sociopaths who don't care who they hurt in order to make a buck.  They could sit there and watch a child sob and only be thinking how they can make money off this child's pain.  I picture them like the dealership people in that Carvana commercial - "We got your car, sweetie!!!"

Obviously I know some talented and ethical doctors and car mechanics and lawyers and whathaveyou, but I've encountered enough bad ones to form a negative opinion of their professions as a whole.  Those lawyer and used car salesman jokes come from somewhere, they don't just materialize out of thin air.  Plus I'm predisposed to mistrust anyone who holds power over my happiness or well-being - they have to earn trust from me, they don't just get it for free.

< /rant >

Okay, I think it might be out of my system.....for now.


----------



## black dog

stgislander said:


> Maybe Black Dog could come down and snipe him from 1 or 2000 yards out.


Be careful, I can still bust steel to 1200 yds.lol








With my Browning 45-90 with cast bulleys and open Verniers....when ones see's the big puff of smoke, its too late....


----------



## black dog

vraiblonde said:


> I am going to write the review, though.  Because if the vet says they have all these things wrong with them, and you euthanize your pet based on their diagnosis, and that diagnosis is BS or there was a viable course of action besides putting the pet down, how would you ever know?  You'd just kill a beloved pet that could have been treated with simple medication and be none the wiser.
> 
> < rant >
> 
> This is why I hate doctors (and car mechanics, and lawyers, and pretty much anyone you have to trust).  So many of them are money grubbing sociopaths who don't care who they hurt in order to make a buck.  They could sit there and watch a child sob and only be thinking how they can make money off this child's pain.  I picture them like the dealership people in that Carvana commercial - "We got your car, sweetie!!!"
> 
> Obviously I know some talented and ethical doctors and car mechanics and lawyers and whathaveyou, but I've encountered enough bad ones to form a negative opinion of their professions as a whole.  Those lawyer and used car salesman jokes come from somewhere, they don't just materialize out of thin air.  Plus I'm predisposed to mistrust anyone who holds power over my happiness or well-being - they have to earn trust from me, they don't just get it for free.
> 
> < /rant >
> 
> Okay, I think it might be out of my system.....for now.



Do you believe Apollo is moving forward?


----------



## stgislander

black dog said:


> Be careful, I can still bust steel to 1200 yds.lol
> 
> View attachment 159399
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With my Browning 45-90 with cast bulleys and open Verniers....when ones see's the big puff of smoke, its too late....


How about a cantaloupe sized target?


----------



## black dog

stgislander said:


> How about a cantaloupe sized target?



You are 10" to high...


----------



## AnthonyJames

ontheriver said:


> Just take care of Apollo...





Kyle said:


> I would get a second opinion and let it go.



^ Vrai, I would take this advice. ^

I know you're mad as hell, but don't do anything stupid. 
You knew to get a second opinion. That may be the best message to get out about this vet.

Kill 'em with kindness.


----------



## Grumpy

Get your 2nd opinion before your go off on the original vet. Unless I missed something, he/she gave you what  was their diagnosis of the blood work. Perhaps they aren't adept at giving you percentages of what may be happening.  I've been through this many times with vets that I am not familiar with (emergency situations) and them not knowing me gave blunt observations. I know in a lot of cases, it is about the money, but I have said no and lets give it a few days at home with meds   I think you are doing the right thing. I could be all wrong and you have used this vet for awhile, so you can ignore this post if you wish.


----------



## DoWhat

vraiblonde said:


> So my next dilemma is how I'm going to punish that vet who freaked me out, tried to shake me down for thousand$, and more importantly had me seriously considering euthanizing Apollo.
> 
> I have already imagined various scenes of extreme violence, but that doesn't seem a reasonable way to go.  But I might change my mind.
> 
> I don't really have anything lawsuit worthy or that would be my first avenue of retribution.  I could lodge a complaint with their parent company but that seems like a waste of time - nothing ever gets done about that stuff.  I'll certainly detail my experience in a Google review to warn others.
> 
> I'm just thinking of someone who trusts "authority" either shelling out unnecessary big bucks or (shudder) mistakenly putting their pet down based on this psychotic's recommendation.   She needs to pay for this and be strongly encouraged to never do it again.
> 
> Any ideas?


Can we please wait until Apollo is nice and healthy and running around?


----------



## vraiblonde

black dog said:


> Do you believe Apollo is moving forward?



Yes.  He's been more active the last 24 hours, his eyes look good, he's been eating well, and his potties are normal.  He's still a little shaky but not so anyone who didn't know him would notice.


----------



## vraiblonde

Grumpy said:


> I could be all wrong and you have used this vet for awhile, so you can ignore this post if you wish.



No, it's a new vet.  It's one of those deals where they're corporate owned with an onsite manager and 5 veterinarians, and you don't have one person who is your pet's vet, you just get whoever grabs your file. 

Apollo just had his annual checkup/shots in August.  The doc gave Apollo a clean bill of health, said he looked good, all the tests came back great, etc.  So now less than a month later another vet in that same office says he has liver cancer and needs to be hospitalized, possibly euthanized.

It doesn't make sense to me.  Especially since he's now bouncing back from what was wrong with him.  

Anyway, I'm not going back there.  Apollo's groomer, who I love, recommended someone else so I'll make an appointment and get Apollo in there.


----------



## kwillia

vraiblonde said:


> Yes.  He's been more active the last 24 hours, his eyes look good, he's been eating well, and his potties are normal.  He's still a little shaky but not so anyone who didn't know him would notice.


Cancer doesn’t heal like that but pancreatitis does. Keep him extra hydrated regardless.


----------



## spr1975wshs

black dog said:


> Be careful, I can still bust steel to 1200 yds.lol


I have powder activated tools capable of that, but my eyes have betrayed me.


----------



## black dog

spr1975wshs said:


> I have powder activated tools capable of that, but my eyes have betrayed me.


So big boy, is that a Hilti 650 in your pocket?


----------



## black dog

kwillia said:


> Cancer doesn’t heal like that but pancreatitis does. Keep him extra hydrated regardless.



He might just need a doggie prostate massage.
A backdoor expression will put a wag in his tail!!!!!

 Its a dark job Menello, but someone has to do it..


----------



## vraiblonde

DoWhat said:


> Can we please wait until Apollo is nice and healthy and running around?



Then can I egg her house?


----------



## vraiblonde

kwillia said:


> Cancer doesn’t heal like that but pancreatitis does. Keep him extra hydrated regardless.



How do they treat pancreatitis?  And what is the prognosis?  As in, do they med them and they get better, or is it an automatic death sentence, or somewhere in between?


----------



## kwillia

vraiblonde said:


> How do they treat pancreatitis?  And what is the prognosis?  As in, do they med them and they get better, or is it an automatic death sentence, or somewhere in between?


They gave her a camel pack (big injection of fluids) on her back and a pill to take twice a day. She gradually got better on her own. The pancreas had to reset itself.


----------



## frequentflier

vraiblonde said:


> How do they treat pancreatitis?  And what is the prognosis?  As in, do they med them and they get better, or is it an automatic death sentence, or somewhere in between?


Customers swore by it and I successfully treated my cat with Primal raw goats milk. In addition to the probiotics, it has organic ginger, turmeric and cinnamon- all with inflammatory properties. Probiotics help boost the immune system and sooth the gut. Found in the freezer section of many independent pet stores. You can go on Primal's website to see stores in that area that carry it.  
Though my vet did not recommend any treatment, he said he wasn't surprised the goats milk worked (DUH- than why not recommend it!!)


----------



## Dakota

vraiblonde said:


> Yes.  He's been more active the last 24 hours, his eyes look good, he's been eating well, and his potties are normal.  He's still a little shaky but not so anyone who didn't know him would notice.



Sounds like this might have been pancreatitis.  keeping my fingers crossed for continual improvement for sure.


----------



## Bann

vraiblonde said:


> Here's what happened, and read the whole thing because I need advice:
> 
> Monday Apollo started vomiting his food.  He was otherwise perky and normal, so I didn't think too much about it.
> 
> Tuesday he was vomiting to the point of bringing up empty-tummy foam and he was lethargic - clearly not feeling well.  So I removed his water for 5-6 hours and food for 24 hours.
> 
> Wednesday he ate a little chicken and rice for breakfast at 7am, and around noon barfed it back up.  Now it's gone on too long and my Dr. Mom skills are tapped out, so I called the vet and took him into doggie urgent care.
> 
> They took his temp (normal), then the vet came in and said they were going to do some blood work.  She didn't examine Apollo or even really look at him.  Tech comes in and takes him off to get blood.  Brought him back, and a few minutes later the vet reappears and says his white count is high and his liver enzymes are enormously high, they're going to do another blood test to make sure.  She said he's also slightly dehydrated and she wants to inject him with something to re-hydrate him.
> 
> So off he goes to get more blood taken and re-hydrate.  After the tech brings him back, the vet shows up and says he appears to have liver cancer but she won't know for sure unless she opens him up to take a look.  She wants to hospitalize him (to the tune of $1200/day) to monitor his behavior, then do exploratory surgery.  By this time I'm upset and crying, I told her I can't justify spending upwards of $10,000 on a 13 year old dog with no guarantees of success.
> 
> She said fine, they'll treat the symptoms (vomiting and infection) with medication and see where it goes from there.  So Apollo is on an anti-emetic and amoxicillin.
> 
> The more I thought about this exchange the more suspicious I became because I hate doctors anyway, and especially vets because so many of them prey on the owner's emotions to rack up big fees.  I'm trying to be realistic and not let that come into play, because I want what's best for Apollo but again, I can't justify laying down $10k for them to "explore".
> 
> So what I'm going to do is run the course of the meds and see if that doesn't do the trick.  If it does, yay.  If it doesn't, then that's that.  If he does have liver cancer there's nothing to be done about it anyway, and if he doesn't that means the vet lied to me.  Either way, I think I'm done with them and will be looking for another vet.
> 
> Thoughts?  Advice?


Not sure how I missed this!!     

   I'm so sorry.  

I think you might remember my experience with Simon -and you probably already have enough advice, and maybe even made a decision.    However, a brief synopsis:  Simon was 15, and most likely HAD end stage kidney disease, and the Vet wanted to do more tests, and recommended all these treatments.  I also didn't trust the Vet Hospital's "advice" (PF Animal Hospital).

I went to another Vet (recommended by a trusted friend)  who did TWO tests and made the determination that the kidney disease would not get better and said I COULD do all those other things, but Simon would not get better, and he might get a LOT worse before he passed.   

That Vet respected my decision that day, and never made any outlandish recommendations of all kinds of treatments, etc.  He also didn't make me feel guilty - which the first Vet did.


----------



## Bann

spr1975wshs said:


> Find more of a country vet, who will actually look at and SEE Apollo.
> 
> We've lost 3 of our cats to cancer over the years (2 to intestinal lymphoma and 1 to a sublingual sarcoma).
> The vets tested and diagnosed properly, but outside of heroic measures, only were able to offer palliative care, which did ease the girls into a least worst ending after several more pretty good months.


Exactly.  I found a REAL country vet.


----------



## vraiblonde

Dakota said:


> Sounds like this might have been pancreatitis.  keeping my fingers crossed for continual improvement for sure.



No idea, but it appears to be fixed now.  Apollo is back to his perky self.  

I'm looking at pancreatitis on AKC.org and...I'm not feeling it.  He doesn't fit into any of the risk cats except that he's part Schnauzer, and the vet didn't see any issues at his checkup in Aug.  He also had no belly pain and no fever.  Plus when the emergency vet did his blood she specifically said that his liver enzymes were extremely high and didn't say anything about pancreatic enzymes, and I'd think that would be the first thing she'd rule out.  (Although she's an evil ghoul and I hate her so who knows what that quack did.)  

Anyway, he seems to be fine now.  I have no idea what the problem was.  I'm going to call the new vet on Monday and make an appointment and see if we can't clear up this mystery.


----------



## black dog

..


vraiblonde said:


> No idea, but it appears to be fixed now.  Apollo is back to his perky self.
> 
> I'm looking at pancreatitis on AKC.org and...I'm not feeling it.  He doesn't fit into any of the risk cats except that he's part Schnauzer, and the vet didn't see any issues at his checkup in Aug.  He also had no belly pain and no fever.  Plus when the emergency vet did his blood she specifically said that his liver enzymes were extremely high and didn't say anything about pancreatic enzymes, and I'd think that would be the first thing she'd rule out.  (Although she's an evil ghoul and I hate her so who knows what that quack did.)
> 
> Anyway, he seems to be fine now.  I have no idea what the problem was.  I'm going to call the new vet on Monday and make an appointment and see if we can't clear up this mystery.



Thats good to hear...


----------



## Bann

vraiblonde said:


> No idea, but it appears to be fixed now.  Apollo is back to his perky self.
> 
> I'm looking at pancreatitis on AKC.org and...I'm not feeling it.  He doesn't fit into any of the risk cats except that he's part Schnauzer, and the vet didn't see any issues at his checkup in Aug.  He also had no belly pain and no fever.*  Plus when the emergency vet did his blood she specifically said that his liver enzymes were extremely high a*nd didn't say anything about pancreatic enzymes, and I'd think that would be the first thing she'd rule out.  (Although she's an evil ghoul and I hate her so who knows what that quack did.)
> 
> Anyway, he seems to be fine now.  I have no idea what the problem was.  I'm going to call the new vet on Monday and make an appointment and see if we can't clear up this mystery.


Good grief,  this is extremely disturbing!  I hope you get to the bottom of it.  I'm like you - I don't like it when Vets or techs (or anyone in medicine really) use emotional manipulation.   The tests are tests - they have specific results and they MEAN specific things.  Geez - how hard is it to just give the facts.


----------



## spr1975wshs

vraiblonde said:


> No idea, but it appears to be fixed now. Apollo is back to his perky self.


Fingers crossed that this was just a short term, acute illness and NOT a sign of something chronic developing.


----------



## Monello

spr1975wshs said:


> Fingers crossed that this was just a short term


Clearly this is what it was.  Apollo is back to being himself.  And he's eating better.  In both quantity and quality of his chow.

He's his old self.  Barking at the turtles.  Whining when we are eating.  Wagging his tail when someone baby talks to him.


----------



## Kyle

Recovering back so quick, sounds like he may have eaten something they gave him trouble. Is it possible he may have gotten into some thing in the household, or something in the yard? In either event glad he’s doing better.


----------



## Monello

Kyle said:


> Recovering back so quick, sounds like he may have eaten something they gave him trouble. Is it possible he may have gotten into some thing in the household, or something in the yard? In either event glad he’s doing better.


We did the backtracking of what he could have potentially eaten.  Nothing comes to mind.  That doesn't mean he didn't find some toxic morsel on 1 of his walks.

His food intake is being closely monitored now.


----------



## frequentflier

Monello said:


> We did the backtracking of what he could have potentially eaten.  Nothing comes to mind.  That doesn't mean he didn't find some toxic morsel on 1 of his walks.
> 
> His food intake is being closely monitored now.


Glad he is feeling better!


----------



## vraiblonde

Kyle said:


> Recovering back so quick, sounds like he may have eaten something they gave him trouble. Is it possible he may have gotten into some thing in the household, or something in the yard? In either event glad he’s doing better.



That's what I thought, but then the "vet" came back with all this dire stuff.  It seemed like more than just eating stuff he finds because he's done that before and it's normally a 24 hour tummy ache resulting in disgusting poopage.  We're pretty diligent about keeping the house dog proofed and not letting him get too interested in anything outside, but stuff happens.

My friend said she'd pray for him, so maybe that's what did the trick.    (And if she has the hotline to God, I have a few requests....)


----------



## DoWhat

vraiblonde said:


> (And if she has the hotline to God, I have a few requests....)


If you hear anything, can you please share?


----------



## vraiblonde

DoWhat said:


> If you hear anything, can you please share?



Will do!

My first thought was, "Hey!  This can be my scam!  Tell the rubes I have a hotline to God and for the low low price of $499.99 I can put in a prayer request for them!"  Unfortunately I have this conscience thing that precludes me from taking advantage of folks who are already having a tough time.


----------



## DoWhat

vraiblonde said:


> Will do!
> 
> My first thought was, "Hey!  This can be my scam!  Tell the rubes I have a hotline to God and for the low low price of $499.99 I can put in a prayer request for them!"  Unfortunately I have this conscience thing that precludes me from taking advantage of folks who are already having a tough time.


Reduce the price.


----------



## black dog

vraiblonde said:


> Will do!
> 
> My first thought was, "Hey!  This can be my scam!  Tell the rubes I have a hotline to God and for the low low price of $499.99 I can put in a prayer request for them!"  Unfortunately I have this conscience thing that precludes me from taking advantage of folks who are already having a tough time.




So I shouldn't be sending Peter Popoff anymore money for packages of his Miracle Spring Water???


----------



## spr1975wshs

vraiblonde said:


> That's what I thought, but then the "vet" came back with all this dire stuff.


That reads like the vet we had when we lived near Dayton, OH from 91 - 96.
Once we got on to them, they straightened up and flew right for our kitties.


----------



## Bann

Monello said:


> We did the backtracking of what he could have potentially eaten.  Nothing comes to mind.  That doesn't mean he didn't find some toxic morsel on 1 of his walks.
> 
> His food intake is being closely monitored now.


Watch out for those damn gargantuan "palmetto bugs"!!!


----------



## Christy

vraiblonde said:


> Was the dog just being kept alive or was she able to resume her normal life, give or take?  Because if Apollo can resume his life for the most part I'm happy to make his food and do what needs to be done.  But if he's just going to be kept alive - what others said, that's more for me than him and it's not fair.



The dog has resumed normal life.  I mean she is an old dog, so she has creaky bones and such, but she still goes out and swims in the pool and lounges around the house like any normal dog.


----------



## luvmygdaughters

Sure hope Apollo is feeling better.  My granddog, Mr. King, had bouts of pancreatitis which caused the same symptoms.  My daughter would take him to the vet each time, at $500.00 a pop.   She started making him chicken and rice when he had these bouts and really seemed to help him.


----------



## stgislander

luvmygdaughters said:


> Sure hope Apollo is feeling better.  My granddog, Mr. King, had bouts of pancreatitis which caused the same symptoms.  My daughter would take him to the vet each time, at $500.00 a pop.   She started making him chicken and rice when he had these bouts and really seemed to help him.


I think that's one of the first things vets learn in school.  Got gastrointestinal problems?  Start a ground chicken/turkey & rice diet.


----------



## Monello

black dog said:


> Apollo is now into his fourth day, do him a favor and give him a hug and let the vet put him to sleep.



In hindsight, this would have been the wrong thing to do.  He's fine now.  But honestly, he didn't look good there for a while.  I'm glad he got a stay.  Amazing  when you compare then to now.


----------



## PrchJrkr

stgislander said:


> I think that's one of the first things vets learn in school.  Got gastrointestinal problems?  Start a ground chicken/turkey & rice diet.


I may suggest this to one of my coworkers.


----------



## black dog

Monello said:


> In hindsight, this would have been the wrong thing to do.  He's fine now.  But honestly, he didn't look good there for a while.  I'm glad he got a stay.  Amazing  when you compare then to now.



Sure its a good thing he farted and got better, but the reality is most pet owners wait WAY to long in the ageing process to send their pet to Neverland Ranch. Hes a lucky dog. 
 He should properly be renamed "Reprived" or LIABD'S 
 Lucky
 I
 Ain't
 Black
 Dogs

Or be made a Kentucky Colonel.


----------

