# Should felons get to vote?



## Monello

Should felons be allowed to vote?


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## vraiblonde

It's pretty easy to not commit felonies.  I've managed to avoid it my whole life, as has everyone I know.


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## Ken King

Absolutely.  Once they have served their sentence and are back in society they should get all of their rights back, to include voting.


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## vraiblonde

Ken King said:


> Absolutely.  Once they have served their sentence and are back in society they should get all of their rights back, to include voting.



I understood this to be a current events question, as in "should felons be allowed to vote from prison?"


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## Ken King

vraiblonde said:


> I understood this to be a current events question, as in "should felons be allowed to vote from prison?"


Well not all of us have the ability to sit next to the thread starter and pick up on the subtle nuances.

In prison, no.  Out, after completing sentence, yes.


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## Yooper

Ken King said:


> In prison, no.  Out, after completing sentence, yes.


Nope. Never. A felon forfeits his/her/xer right to participate. FOREVER. No guns, no votes, no full participation in our civic life post-conviction.

Don't water down felony offenses. Felonies are serious crimes and I still believe in the deterrent aspect of the legal system. Want lesser felons to regain the privilege? Then reclassify their offenses as misdemeanors. More serious/violent felonies, no.

Not playing the social justice game either. If a disproportionate number of a certain group of people are convicted felons, then that group needs to quit asking the rest of society to join it at the bottom of the social septic tank. Instead, climb on out and joining the rest of the responsible.

The ONLY possible way I would even consider this "felons regain the vote" would be after a felon served a long, successful, honorable enlistment in the military or a substantial length of time passed with no further runs-in with the law (say, 25 years). In both case, less-serious, non-violent felonies only.

Otherwise, as I said, nope. Never.

I feel strongly about a number of things. This is one of maybe five that I feel REALLY strongly about. FWIW.

--- End of line (MCP)


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## Ken King

Yooper said:


> Nope. Never. A felon forfeits his/her/xer right to participate. FOREVER. No guns, no votes, no full participation in our civic life post-conviction.
> 
> Don't water down felony offenses. Felonies are serious crimes and I still believe in the deterrent aspect of the legal system. Want lesser felons to regain the privilege? Then reclassifiy their offenses as misdemeanors. More serious/violent felonies, no.
> 
> Not playing the social justice game either. If a disproportionate number of a certain group of people are convicted felons, then that group needs to quit asking the rest of society to join it at the bottom of the social septic tank. Instead, climb on out and joining the rest of the responsible.
> 
> The ONLY possible way I would even consider this "felons regain the vote" would be after a felon served a long, successful, honorable enlistment in the military or a substantial length of time passed with no further runs-in with the law (say, 25 years). In both case, less-serious, non-violent felonies only.
> 
> Otherwise, as I said, nope. Never.
> 
> I feel strongly about a number of things. This is one of maybe five that I feel REALLY strongly about. FWIW.
> 
> --- End of line (MCP)


Well I disagree.  If the crime is serious enough to remove the protection of rights then keep them in prison or use the death penalty.  If you return them to society, return them whole.


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## Monello

Yooper said:


> The ONLY possible way I would even consider this "felons regain the vote" would be after a felon served a long, successful, honorable enlistment in the military or a substantial length of time passed with no further runs-in with the law (say, 25 years). In both case, less-serious, non-violent felonies only.
> 
> Otherwise, as I said, nope. Never.
> 
> I feel strongly about a number of things. This is one of maybe five that I feel REALLY strongly about. FWIW.
> 
> --- End of line (MCP)


So you are saying to handle it like they do points on your driving record.  Keep your nose clean for a few years and you get your right to vote back.


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## Merlin99

Yooper said:


> Nope. Never. A felon forfeits his/her/xer right to participate. FOREVER. No guns, no votes, no full participation in our civic life post-conviction.
> 
> Don't water down felony offenses. Felonies are serious crimes and I still believe in the deterrent aspect of the legal system. Want lesser felons to regain the privilege? Then reclassifiy their offenses as misdemeanors. More serious/violent felonies, no.
> 
> Not playing the social justice game either. If a disproportionate number of a certain group of people are convicted felons, then that group needs to quit asking the rest of society to join it at the bottom of the social septic tank. Instead, climb on out and joining the rest of the responsible.
> 
> The ONLY possible way I would even consider this "felons regain the vote" would be after a felon served a long, successful, honorable enlistment in the military or a substantial length of time passed with no further runs-in with the law (say, 25 years). In both case, less-serious, non-violent felonies only.
> 
> Otherwise, as I said, nope. Never.
> 
> I feel strongly about a number of things. This is one of maybe five that I feel REALLY strongly about. FWIW.
> 
> --- End of line (MCP)


I'm not sure I'd make that the only way to regain your status, but I don't disagree with the sentiment.


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## limblips

Nope.  Losing your right to vote is part of the punishment for committing the felony.  To get the right reinstated is removing what is supposed to be a deterrent to criminality.  As for being a good person for a period of time, we already have that.  The felon can petition to have the felony removed.  And for military service to reinstate voting rights, nope again.  The military does not need to have the 70+ % recividism and the associated administration burden.


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## Yooper

Monello said:


> So you are saying to handle it like they do points on your driving record.  Keep your nose clean for a few years and you get your right to vote back.


No. Not really. I am pretty much 100% against restoration of voting (or other) rights. But I am always willing to listen. So I offered two possible means by which I might consider the "pro" restoration position.

Not thrilled with the military idea, but it has the sense of service I think a felon would have to show/undergo for reinstatement (in other words, do something for someone else, rather than yourself).

The longevity option may not require selfless service, but the lengthy period of time could be seen as a serious intent to "remain reformed." In what is surely a poor example (but the only one that comes to mind as I type) we believe an alcoholic can "remain sober" the longer that person has been sober.

--- End of line (MCP)


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## afjess1989

Depending on their crime and if they have served their time and have become productive member's of society then yes, they should be able to vote.


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## Hannibal

My belief is that if the law/court said you are to serve X amount of years in prison as punishment for your crime and you do so "honorably", then you've paid your debt to society in the eyes of the law/court.  As such, your rights should be returned (within reason).  This doesn't mean your are released of all penalties.  For example, a convicted sex offender should still remain on the sex offenders list after prison.  A felon whose crime involved a handgun or violent criminal act should not be allowed to own/purchase a firearm, etc.  But the person should be allowed to pay for their crime as deemed appropriate by our court system and become a better person and a better member of society (be allowed to participate) post prison.  Otherwise, if take away all incentive to improve, why would you?


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## calvcopf

If you serve your time and are no longer on parole/probation, then you should have the right to vote again.
Seems like a little incentive to prove to yourself that you are on the right path and  rejoining as a full citizen of the country and have achieved something.


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## glhs837

Hannibal said:


> My belief is that if the law/court said you are to serve X amount of years in prison as punishment for your crime and you do so "honorably", then you've paid your debt to society in the eyes of the law/court.  As such, your rights should be returned (within reason).  This doesn't mean your are released of all penalties.  *For example, a convicted sex offender should still remain on the sex offenders list after prison.  A felon whose crime involved a handgun or violent criminal act should not be allowed to own/purchase a firearm, etc. * But the person should be allowed to pay for their crime as deemed appropriate by our court system and become a better person and a better member of society (be allowed to participate) post prison.  Otherwise, if take away all incentive to improve, why would you?




See, here's part of my problem. We are asking one question, but this isn't really about this one thing. It's about the rtadual moving of the goalposts. Always in the direction of reduced presonal responsibility. Anyone who thiks those next two bits are loaded in the chamber and ready to fire once they get this voting thing done are mistaking the endgame here. And I njormally dont suscribe the the "Them" sort of thing in stuff like this. But in this case, while there isnt a "them" you can point to, the concepts presented are so very much alinged that I would bet your congruence between "Felons should be allowed to vote" and "Well, there are some sex crimes that are not soooo bad, she was a very hot 14" and "Well, he should only be allowed a gun at home" is pretty high.


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## vraiblonde

It's pretty easy to not commit a felony.  The vast majority of Americans go their whole lives with no problem.

How about it they have to apply for their voting privileges after they've served their time?  They don't get it automatically, they have to prove that they want it by registering and a board either approves or disapproves, based on the crime committed and the felon's history.


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## limblips

vraiblonde said:


> It's pretty easy to not commit a felony.  The vast majority of Americans go their whole lives with no problem.
> 
> How about it they have to apply for their voting privileges after they've served their time?  They don't get it automatically, they have to prove that they want it by registering and a board either approves or disapproves, based on the crime committed and the felon's history.



If you made them have to put forth personal effort to get their voting right back I predict the number of applicants would be incredibly small.


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## somdwatch

Once they've served their sentence and released from Parole, they should be granted their constitutional rights.  Including firearms.  If they're really rehabbed it should be good.


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## limblips

somdwatch said:


> Once they've served their sentence and released from Parole, they should be granted their constitutional rights.  Including firearms.  If they're really rehabbed it should be good.


That is a big IF that I am not willing to risk.


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## glhs837

somdwatch said:


> Once they've served their sentence and released from Parole, they should be granted their constitutional rights.  Including firearms.  If they're really rehabbed it should be good.


Bwuhahahaha, whats the going rate on that?


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## Merlin99

limblips said:


> If you made them have to put forth personal effort to get their voting right back I predict the number of applicants would be incredibly small.


Personally I think this should apply to everyone and not just felons, so many people vote with no idea who or what they're voting for.


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## Rommey

There's already too many road blocks in today's society for ex-convicts. It seems unreasonable to add one more road block to having a ex-convict integrate back into society. I fail to see the logic in continuing punishment after someone has completed their sentence.

I also don't see how "depends on their crime" factors into the question.


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## somdwatch

glhs837 said:


> Bwuhahahaha, whats the going rate on that?


Slim, but I do have a relative that would qualify.  His decisions have improved to where I think he could handle the responsibility.  But he doesn't have to convince me now does he?


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## GregV814

Why not?? They are currently serving!


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## Bird Dog

Whats to  stop a  felon from voting or possessing a firearm........?

They do it all the time is beautiful downtown Baltimore. The ones that die just vote.


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## Yooper

Yooper said:


> Nope. Never. A felon forfeits his/her/xer right.... No guns, no votes, no full participation in our civic life post-conviction.
> 
> Don't water down felony offenses. Felonies are serious crimes and I still believe in the deterrent aspect of the legal system. Want lesser felons to regain the privilege? Then reclassify their offenses as misdemeanors. More serious/violent felonies, no.





Ken King said:


> Well I disagree.  If the crime is serious enough....



Bumping an older thread.

I'm coming over a bit to your side, Ken.

ACB got me to thinking:








						Justice Barrett’s Vote Already Looking To Be Decisive In First Big Gun Rights Case In Years
					

Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett could deliver a decisive vote in case regarding gun ownership for non-violent felons if the case ends up in the court.




					dailycaller.com
				






> The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Kanter v. Barr in which the court upheld that Rickey I. Kanter was prohibited from owning a firearm because he committed mail fraud. However, Justice Barrett dissented, arguing that history does not support revoking Second Amendment rights to felons convicted of a non-violent crime.
> 
> “History is consistent with common sense: it demonstrates that legislatures have the power to prohibit dangerous people from possessing guns,” Barrett wrote in her 2019 dissent. “*But that power extends only to people who are dangerous.  Founding-era legislatures did not strip felons of the right to bear arms simply because of their status as felons.*”


_emphasis mine_

She makes, I think, an excellent point. So while my overall opposition to felons voting/having guns/etc. still stands, I can see where there could be some wiggle room.

FWIW

--- End of line (MCP)


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## black dog

Shall not be Infringed.....
 Its a simple sentence,  but many make it so hard...
 Once time has been served all God given Rights shall be restored....


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## Bobwhite

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking.  It seems to me that felons, ex-felons, what-have-you, can influence elections in ways other than voting.  They can blog, twitter, facebook, youtube, etc. whatever they think is relevant and why it should be this way or that way.  Look how many "stars" have been created by just that method.   Also, they can join political organizations and peddle their influence in that manner. So I don't think it matters if they get their voting privileges restored.


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## DaSDGuy

Ken King said:


> Absolutely.  Once they have served their sentence and are back in society they should get all of their rights back, to include voting.


So you say a child rapist can serve their full sentence, then regain their right to be elementary school teachers?


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## Ken King

DaSDGuy said:


> So you say a child rapist can serve their full sentence, then regain their right to be elementary school teachers?


If that is what you think I said.  I can't help you comprehend my actual words.  Which are, if a crime is so egregious that rights will continue to be held after the punishment has been completed then those that commit those crimes should never be set free upon society again..  Otherwise, once a person has served their determined punishment and are returned to society they then get all of their rights returned. 

Now, to your specific scenario; I am quite certain that an elementary school determining that a candidate for employment has such a past that they would be under no obligation to actually employ such a candidate, right?   There is no enumerated right to any job that anyone wants.


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## DaSDGuy

Ken King said:


> If that is what you think I said.  I can't help you comprehend my actual words.  Which are, if a crime is so egregious that rights will continue to be held after the punishment has been completed then those that commit those crimes should never be set free upon society again..  Otherwise, once a person has served their determined punishment and are returned to society they then get all of their rights returned.
> 
> Now, to your specific scenario; I am quite certain that an elementary school determining that a candidate for employment has such a past that they would be under no obligation to actually employ such a candidate, right?   There is no enumerated right to any job that anyone wants.


Your actual words:
"Absolutely. Once they have served their sentence and are back in society they should get all of their rights back, to include voting."

What part of your words "they should get all their rights back, to include voting" did I misunderstand? Or are you just back pedaling?


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## black dog

DaSDGuy said:


> So you say a child rapist can serve their full sentence, then regain their right to be elementary school teachers?


As difficult as it feels with some crimes, yes. All or our God Given Rights should be restored when the sentence has been fullfilled...
 Maybe we should reinstate the death penalty for more felonies....


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## Ken King

DaSDGuy said:


> Your actual words:
> "Absolutely. Once they have served their sentence and are back in society they should get all of their rights back, to include voting."
> 
> What part of your words "they should get all their rights back, to include voting" did I misunderstand? Or are you just back pedaling?


Is working as an elementary school teacher (or at any job) a right?  The part that you seem to not understand is what a right is.


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## PeoplesElbow

vraiblonde said:


> It's pretty easy to not commit a felony.  The vast majority of Americans go their whole lives with no problem.
> 
> How about it they have to apply for their voting privileges after they've served their time?  They don't get it automatically, they have to prove that they want it by registering and a board either approves or disapproves, based on the crime committed and the felon's history.


That sounds expensive for society.


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## glhs837

Ken King said:


> Is working as an elementary school teacher (or at any job) a right?  The part that you seem to not understand is what a right is.



If you prevent them from working any job, haven't you infringed on their rights?


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## Ken King

glhs837 said:


> If you prevent them from working any job, haven't you infringed on their rights?


Employment isn't a right.


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## glhs837

Ken King said:


> Employment isn't a right.


No but discrimination in employment is illegal, correct? Believe me I'm not saying a child molester who served his time should ever be allowed to be a teacher I'm just following the logic. For me the only thing child molester should be allowed to be is dead


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## Ken King

glhs837 said:


> No but discrimination in employment is illegal, correct?


Yes, for certain reasons, specifically if such discrimination is based on race, gender, religion, national origin, physical  or mental disability, age, sexual orientation, and gender identity  by employers.  Notice that there is nothing illegal about discriminating for one's status as a felon.


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## glhs837

Ken King said:


> Yes, for certain reasons, specifically if such discrimination is based on race, gender, religion, national origin, physical  or mental disability, age, sexual orientation, and gender identity  by employers.  Notice that there is nothing illegal about discriminating for one's status as a felon.



Thats sorta the point, for some felonies, maybe there should be something in there.... Or not, and we execute or lock up forever some felons....


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## Ken King

glhs837 said:


> Thats sorta the point, for some felonies, maybe there should be something in there.... Or not, and *we execute or lock up forever some felons....*


As they should be, if the crime is of such an egregious nature then rid them from society.  But if it is determined that they have served the complete penalty for their crime/s and are returned to society, return them whole.


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## spr1975wshs

A felon, after completion of sentence, including any parole, probation and/or restitution should be able to petition the court, as an individual, for restoration of rights. However, I do not think the more serious felonies such as murder, rape (of a victim of any age), or similar be accorded the opportunity.


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## WingsOfGold

Ken King said:


> Absolutely.  Once they have served their sentence and are back in society they should get all of their rights back, to include voting.


Nope, they didn't serve shiit, they paid no debt back to society, they were incarcerated. Felonies aren't speeding tickets.


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## WingsOfGold

Ken King said:


> Employment isn't a right.


Nor is voting once you lost that right.


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## PeoplesElbow

So the capital protesters are most likely going to be felons, do they deserve to lose their right to vote forever?


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## Rommey

glhs837 said:


> If you prevent them from working any job, haven't you infringed on their rights?


I think a lot of employers have standards that they are allowed to use to determine if a person is suitable for a given job. The example of a convicted sexual offender would require a school to take the prudent steps of not hiring someone with that history. Another example would be if a financial institution decided to not hire someone convicted of embezzlement. Plenty of jobs require security clearances and even well qualified candidates might not be able to get a security clearance to do the job. At what point do you say "I'm not hiring an ex-convict regardless of the crime" or "I'm not hiring an ex-convict convicted of a specific crime"?


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## RoseRed

I'm sure they all will soon enough.


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## glhs837

Rommey said:


> I think a lot of employers have standards that they are allowed to use to determine if a person is suitable for a given job. The example of a convicted sexual offender would require a school to take the prudent steps of not hiring someone with that history. Another example would be if a financial institution decided to not hire someone convicted of embezzlement. Plenty of jobs require security clearances and even well qualified candidates might not be able to get a security clearance to do the job. At what point do you say "I'm not hiring an ex-convict regardless of the crime" or "I'm not hiring an ex-convict convicted of a specific crime"?



Note I said "any" job, not "some" jobs. Not allowing an embezzler work in a bank makes sense, but not allowing them to pick in an Amazon warehouse doesnt.


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## Ken King

WingsOfGold said:


> Nor is voting once you lost that right.


That would depend where the felon is and in some places the crime committed;


 In Maine and Vermont the right isn't suspended at all and they can vote from prison.
 In DC, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Utah the right to vote is automatically restored on release from prison.
 In California, Colorado, Connecticut and New York the right to vote is automatically restored after release and upon discharge from parole.
 In Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Virginia the right is automatically restored after completion of sentence, parole, and probation.
 In Alabama, Delaware, Mississippi, Nevada, Tennessee and Wyoming it depends on the type crime or an individual petition to regain the right.
 And in Iowa and Kentucky the right can only be restored by an individual petition.


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## WingsOfGold

Ken King said:


> That would depend where the felon is and in some places the crime committed;
> 
> 
> In Maine and Vermont the right isn't suspended at all and they can vote from prison.
> In DC, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Utah the right to vote is automatically restored on release from prison.
> In California, Colorado, Connecticut and New York the right to vote is automatically restored after release and upon discharge from parole.
> In Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Virginia the right is automatically restored after completion of sentence, parole, and probation.
> In Alabama, Delaware, Mississippi, Nevada, Tennessee and Wyoming it depends on the type crime or an individual petition to regain the right.
> And in Iowa and Kentucky the right can only be restored by an individual petition.


That is correct but how can a murderer or baby fvucker "pay" their debt to society? Giving that shiit the right to vote would only enhance their odds of an easier life, the will always vote for the Sanders or Hairyasses. Snuff the bastards for all I care but do it slowly and painfully.


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## Ken King

WingsOfGold said:


> That is correct but how can a murderer or baby fvucker "pay" their debt to society? Giving that shiit the right to vote would only enhance their odds of an easier life, the will always vote for the Sanders or Hairyasses. *Snuff the bastards for all I care but do it slowly and painfully.*


Don't get me wrong, I am all for life sentences and the death penalty for those deserving it.  But if a jurisdiction releases someone back into society, then release them whole with all of their rights restored.


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## rmorse

Yooper said:


> Nope. Never. A felon forfeits his/her/xer right to participate. FOREVER. No guns, no votes, no full participation in our civic life post-conviction.
> 
> Don't water down felony offenses. Felonies are serious crimes and I still believe in the deterrent aspect of the legal system.



There are ways with current gun laws to accidentally commit a felony....


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