# Charging your electric vehicle - a window to the wonder



## kwillia

I 'wonder' what is going to happen to the costs of electricity as more switch, by choice or force, and the demand overloads providers.... gee I wonder... but in the meantime let's look how things are now....

The study has four major findings:


There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage. 
Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices. 
There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers – even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.
The study found that the average cost of a Level 1 charger is $600. To install a Level 2 costs $1,600 because it requires hiring an electrician. An L1 charger uses a 120-volt supply of electricity and can take 20 or more hours to charge, whereas an L2 chargers uses 240 volts and can charge in a few hours.  
Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas? (msn.com) 

Also, don't plan on ever having a 100% charge on your EV, he said. 

"It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”

That means if the vehicle advertises a range of 240 miles on a full charge, a driver in reality will get considerably less on, say, an 80% charge, he said.


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## Sneakers

kwillia said:


> "It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”


I've never heard that, but it is known that consistently charging Lithium batteries beyond 80% shortens their life dramatically.  For solar charging systems, the accepted range is a 20% low to an 80% 'full'.


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## vraiblonde

In my travels I've seen car charging stations.....

.....excuse me a sec.....


   


* ahem *  Okay, I'm back.....

Anyway, these people are sitting at the charging stations reading because it takes hours to get enough charge to go anywhere.  You can easily search for "how long does it take to charge electric cars" and see where opponents give you a time - literally hours, up to 40 hours (!) if the battery is fully drained; and advocates hedge with "well, it depends...." and never give you an exact time.

EVs are stupid.  I don't even know why they're a thing.


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## kwillia




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## glhs837

The problem isnt "EVs", its the wrong EVs. Just buy a damn Tesla and don't worry about it. I mean really, the guy who did the study bought one (Porsche) that doenst come with a decent charging network and then complains that it takes him forever to find a charger? The sad state of other companies reliance on third party charging networks is the real issue. 


The car knows where every single Supercharger is.
The car routes you to them along your route so you never have to worry about if you have enough
The charging network is the largest and best maintained in the world.
Unlike third party charging networks, Tesla sets the rates and they are kept reasonable. The only exception to this rule is where govts have stepped in and required per minute vs per KWH charging.
No Tesla takes more than an hour to charge from 20%-80%, barring rare events like holiday jams at some stations, which are always being expanded.
Home charging cost isnt that significant. And here in MD, the State will pay, but even if they didnt, depending on your layout, you are looking between $500 and $1500 to install a level 2 charger.

Here, this article explains exactly what a gulf exists between other EVs and one with a built up charging network. Bying any other EV, unless you never plan to go on a trip would be silly, IMO. 

Here's Google Maps to Charleston, SC. 



			https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.2079382,-76.4308746/Charleston,+SC/@35.5777178,-80.7320618,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m10!4m9!1m1!4e1!1m5!1m1!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!2m2!1d-79.9310512!2d32.7764749!3e0
		


Here's a Tesla routing map, which, BTW includes where and how long you need to charge at each stop. 

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_...eston County SC@32.7764749,-79.93105120000001


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## PeoplesElbow

glhs837 said:


> The problem isnt "EVs", its the wrong EVs. Just buy a damn Tesla and don't worry about it. I mean really, the guy who did the study bought one (Porsche) that doenst come with a decent charging network and then complains that it takes him forever to find a charger? The sad state of other companies reliance on third party charging networks is the real issue.
> 
> 
> The car knows where every single Supercharger is.
> The car routes you to them along your route so you never have to worry about if you have enough
> The charging network is the largest and best maintained in the world.
> Unlike third party charging networks, Tesla sets the rates and they are kept reasonable. The only exception to this rule is where govts have stepped in and required per minute vs per KWH charging.
> No Tesla takes more than an hour to charge from 20%-80%, barring rare events like holiday jams at some stations, which are always being expanded.
> Home charging cost isnt that significant. And here in MD, the State will pay, but even if they didnt, depending on your layout, you are looking between $500 and $1500 to install a level 2 charger.
> 
> Here, this article explains exactly what a gulf exists between other EVs and one with a built up charging network. Bying any other EV, unless you never plan to go on a trip would be silly, IMO.
> 
> Here's Google Maps to Charleston, SC.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.2079382,-76.4308746/Charleston,+SC/@35.5777178,-80.7320618,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m10!4m9!1m1!4e1!1m5!1m1!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!2m2!1d-79.9310512!2d32.7764749!3e0
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Tesla routing map, which, BTW includes where and how long you need to charge at each stop.
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_...eston County SC@32.7764749,-79.93105120000001


You don't have to have a Tesla to use it's chargers. I've read about RAV4 Prime owners using them.


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## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> You don't have to have a Tesla to use it's chargers. I've read about RAV4 Prime owners using them.




Not Superchargers, maybe "destination chargers" or home garage chargers, both Level 2 240 volt chargers. No other maker has done the work required yet. Superchargers require integration in software as well as hardware. The Supercharger needs to talk to the car and determine the battery SOC to plan its charging . And the difference between home, destination, and Superchargers is power, which means speed.


Tesla Superchargers are extremely powerful, 480-volt chargers that can charge a Tesla in under an hour, making them perfect for charging up on long-distance road trips.
A *Supercharger can add between 142 and 175 miles of range to your battery in just 15 minutes*, depending on which model you have.
Destination Chargers are installed by businesses and land owners for public use, but have a slower charging speed than Superchargers. A *Destination Charger will add between 30 and 44 miles of range per hour *of charging, depending on the Tesla model.

Last note, Tesla neither owns nor operates any destination chargers. Places that want them buy them from Tesla and install them and are responsible for them. Basically commercial grade home chargers is what you have there. Tesla owns and operate all Supercharger stations like you see at Harris Teeter.  






Of course, Toyota


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## Monello

Just slap a few solar panels on the roof.  On a sunny day you can drive forever.


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## PeoplesElbow

glhs837 said:


> Not Superchargers, maybe "destination chargers" or home garage chargers, both Level 2 240 volt chargers. No other maker has done the work required yet. Superchargers require integration in software as well as hardware. The Supercharger needs to talk to the car and determine the battery SOC to plan its charging . And the difference between home, destination, and Superchargers is power, which means speed.
> 
> 
> Tesla Superchargers are extremely powerful, 480-volt chargers that can charge a Tesla in under an hour, making them perfect for charging up on long-distance road trips.
> A *Supercharger can add between 142 and 175 miles of range to your battery in just 15 minutes*, depending on which model you have.
> Destination Chargers are installed by businesses and land owners for public use, but have a slower charging speed than Superchargers. A *Destination Charger will add between 30 and 44 miles of range per hour *of charging, depending on the Tesla model.
> 
> Last note, Tesla neither owns nor operates any destination chargers. Places that want them buy them from Tesla and install them and are responsible for them. Basically commercial grade home chargers is what you have there. Tesla owns and operate all Supercharger stations like you see at Harris Teeter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, Toyota


Telsa claims if other manufactures put the comparable stuff in their vehicle they can use them. 

The RAV4 prime only has about 50 miles of EV only range so a destination charger is great. 








						Can Non-Tesla Electric Vehicles Charge at Tesla Charging Stations?
					

Can non-Tesla EVs use Tesla electric charging stations? That depends if you want to use a Tesla destination charger or Tesla Supercharger.




					www.motorbiscuit.com


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## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> Telsa claims if other manufactures put the comparable stuff in their vehicle they can use them.
> 
> The RAV4 prime only has about 50 miles of EV only range so a destination charger is great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can Non-Tesla Electric Vehicles Charge at Tesla Charging Stations?
> 
> 
> Can non-Tesla EVs use Tesla electric charging stations? That depends if you want to use a Tesla destination charger or Tesla Supercharger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motorbiscuit.com



Right, but while Musk has said its happened low key, there's been no sign anyone's actually done it with Superchargers. And yes, sort silly to plug a 50 mile range vehicle into a Supercharger. Like trying to fill your water bottle from a firehose. The Supercharger would need to slow waaaaay down to not cook that thing.


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## glhs837

Car and Driver took a close look at this study and showed how they slanted things. As I said, the guy who owns this consulting group bought a Taycan. I suspect the pain and suffering of trying to go anywhere on the pitiful hodgepodge that is the non-Tesla network ticked him off. 









						Study Calculates EVs Have Higher 'Real World Refueling Cost' Than Gas Vehicles
					

But read the fine print, as the study makes some assumptions and some scary claims about electric cars.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## DaSDGuy

vraiblonde said:


> In my travels I've seen car charging stations.....
> 
> .....excuse me a sec.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * ahem *  Okay, I'm back.....
> 
> Anyway, these people are sitting at the charging stations reading because it takes hours to get enough charge to go anywhere.  You can easily search for "how long does it take to charge electric cars" and see where opponents give you a time - literally hours, up to 40 hours (!) if the battery is fully drained; and advocates hedge with "well, it depends...." and never give you an exact time.
> 
> EVs are stupid.  I don't even know why they're a thing.


Now picture the lines when half the vehicles are EV and a hurricane is 24 hours from impact.


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## RoseRed

NASCAR Race Ends Early As Gas Gets Too Expensive For Anyone To Reach The Finish Line | The Babylon Bee


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## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Now picture the lines when half the vehicles are EV and a hurricane is 24 hours from impact.



Unlike ICE cars, most people charge at home and so don't face the issue of having to top off before evacuating. You can just go. One neat thing that Teslas done in the past is software unlocked extra range for evacuations. All Battery Management Systems (BMS) wall off a certain percentage of total battery capacity top and bottom to extend longevity. Tesla software unlocked some of that to allow greater range for hurricane evacuations.


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## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> So a Tesla can sit in a traffic jam while evacuating a major city for 12 hours and not lose it's charge?


It will lose some, just "turning on" the car turns on all of the electronics and sensors and video displays, etc...  But certainly not as much power as is required by the motor.

But that's no different than an ICE vehicle.  If you're stuck in traffic, and turn it off, it's not using fuel.


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## DaSDGuy

Cool.  So all I need is around $80-100K for the vehicle, another %1600 and electricians cost for the charging station install at home and I am good to go.  Now multiply that by two 'cause the wife drives her own vehicle too. As long as electric energy supply can keep up with demand this will work. Now, about that ten-fold increase in energy demand - who is paying for that infrastructure and where are these high powered lines going to be installed?


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## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> Cool.  So all I need is around $80-100K for the vehicle, another %1600 and electricians cost for the charging station install at home and I am good to go.  Now multiply that by two 'cause the wife drives her own vehicle too. As long as electric energy supply can keep up with demand this will work. Now, about that ten-fold increase in energy demand - who is paying for that infrastructure and where are these high powered lines going to be installed?



80K to 100K is a bit of an overspend, high 40s will get you one new. Used are about the same, oddly enough. Installation of the charging point at home will of course vary. If your breaker panels near the garage, could cost maybe 500 bucks to have two 240v outlets added in the garage. You want a lice post in the driveway that needs a trench dug, of course that will cost more. Charger itself is about $500, so thats a grand. Low end around $1500 for two. Here in MD you can get some gubmint help with that. 40% of cost up to $700 bucks. 

How will the grid handle it? As the need increases, utilities will add capacity. AS they have done since the grid was new. And that's why we shouldn't demand people buy EVs, so the demand curve can be met. I don't agree with subsidies or rebates. The vehicles are good enough to compete, let them.


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## Grumpy

How long have you worked for Tesla?


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## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> How will the grid handle it? As the need increases, utilities will add capacity. AS they have done since the grid was new.


In other words, the power company customers will pay for upgrading the grid, whether they use an EV or not.  Great.  At least I can avoid costs for gasoline but I can't avoid costs for EVs.


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## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> How will the grid handle it? As the need increases, utilities will add capacity.




Yeah this is going to work out so well in CA.


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## DaSDGuy

GURPS said:


> Yeah this is going to work out so well in CA.


Of course.   No buried power lines because they disrupt the protected insect species.  o overhead power lines because they cause wildfires. Can't use fossil fuels (climate change), hydroelectric (kills fish species), nuclear power (because), wind energy (kills birds), or solar cells (pollution generated to manufacture process) to generate electricity. 
So that leaves fairies and magic.


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## glhs837

Grumpy said:


> How long have you worked for Tesla?



Not at all, but I did buy some stock a while back, and so have learned a lot as to why they are different from other EV makers. I will be buying one in the next few years. Luckily for me, I'll be doing it with the proceeds from that stock buy. 



DaSDGuy said:


> In other words, the power company customers will pay for upgrading the grid, whether they use an EV or not.  Great.  At least I can avoid costs for gasoline but I can't avoid costs for EVs.



Yep. Upside is that a more robust grid does benefit everyone even if its indirectly. 

Regarding California, well, they chose to cripple their own grid for stupid reasons. Like Europe. That's not an argument against EVs, its an argument for not doing what they both did. Build a robust grid with a mix of sources and storage to level the  available load and buffer. That benefits everybody. Reduces the effects of the variability of some generations methods, decreases  outages or minimizes the effects of outages.


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## Grumpy

glhs837 said:


> Not at all, but I did buy some stock a while back, and so have learned a lot as to why they are different from other EV makers. I will be buying one in the next few years. Luckily for me, I'll be doing it with the proceeds from that stock buy.


Well, with your enthusiasm and knowledge, they should be paying you. And good on you for taking my tongue-in-cheek comment as not so much a snark but just an observation of your pro-EV stance. .


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## glhs837

Grumpy said:


> Well, with your enthusiasm and knowledge, they should be paying you. And good on you for taking my tongue-in-cheek comment as not so much a snark but just an observation of your pro-EV stance. .




Look at the stock price over the last three years and this last year. They may not be paying me, but they are making me money. Took a two old job rollovers (7K three years back and 20K in September of 2020) and that's now worth almost $120K. Hell, that will pay for my cybertruck with a lot left over  


And its really just pro-Tesla. As a car guy its fascinating to see what they do differently than the industry. No dealerships, massive vertical integration, the willingness to just do things differently. Guy named Joe tweets that the warning chimes are waking his small children, a month or two later, one of the software updates contains "Joe Mode" that reduces the sounds of warning chimes by 20% or some number. Consumer Reports testing finds a "hole" in the ABS programming, Tesla confirms and rolls out fleetwide software update in a couple days. 

They are not perfect by any means, but the amount of change they have forced from the industry is funny to watch.


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## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> Consumer Reports testing finds a "hole" in the ABS programming, Tesla confirms and rolls out fleetwide software update in a couple days.


They just announced a rollback of the software related to the autonomous driving.


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## PeoplesElbow

First Tesla Superchargers for other automakers begin service, higher fees and membership offered
					

Tesla is launching a pilot program for non-Tesla electric vehicles to use its Supercharger network for the first time. The...




					electrek.co


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## Sneakers

PeoplesElbow said:


> First Tesla Superchargers for other automakers begin service, higher fees and membership offered
> 
> 
> Tesla is launching a pilot program for non-Tesla electric vehicles to use its Supercharger network for the first time. The...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co


Something caught my eye in that photo.  The way the cars were parking, some backing in, and no protection for the 'pumps'.  Wonder how long before the chargers all full of dings and creases.


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## DaSDGuy




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## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> View attachment 160455


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## PeoplesElbow

Sneakers said:


> Something caught my eye in that photo.  The way the cars were parking, some backing in, and no protection for the 'pumps'.  Wonder how long before the chargers all full of dings and creases.


A week

I wonder how good they are with repairs or will they be like the free air machines at gas stations, always broken.


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## jrt_ms1995

DaSDGuy said:


> View attachment 160455


St. George Island?


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## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> View attachment 160455


Yep, that's one in England that floods 


DaSDGuy said:


> View attachment 160455



Yep, that one's in England, floods like this every few years. Other than that, it's fine. I'd rather have this that's out of service a few days every couple of years than not have one available at all.


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## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> A week
> 
> I wonder how good they are with repairs or will they be like the free air machines at gas stations, always broken.




Well, I can't speak for other networks, who even now have a lot of availability issues, where one of two, or two of four points at a station might not work, but Tesla's Supercharger network is always held up as the gold standard. They are owned and operated by Tesla so they know it reflects on them, unlike others. Tesla takes care of them, and upgrades them as they go. They doubled the size of the network this year and plan to triple it this year.


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## Clem72

kwillia said:


> I 'wonder' what is going to happen to the costs of electricity as more switch, by choice or force, and the demand overloads providers.... gee I wonder... but in the meantime let's look how things are now....
> 
> The study has four major findings:
> 
> 
> There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
> For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage.
> Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices.
> There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers – even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.
> The study found that the average cost of a Level 1 charger is $600. To install a Level 2 costs $1,600 because it requires hiring an electrician. An L1 charger uses a 120-volt supply of electricity and can take 20 or more hours to charge, whereas an L2 chargers uses 240 volts and can charge in a few hours.
> Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas? (msn.com)
> 
> Also, don't plan on ever having a 100% charge on your EV, he said.
> 
> "It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”
> 
> That means if the vehicle advertises a range of 240 miles on a full charge, a driver in reality will get considerably less on, say, an 80% charge, he said.




So many things incorrect here. For chargers, just look at Amazon. You can buy a plug and play L2 (240v 30 to 50amp) charger for a couple of hundred bucks. Plug it right into your existing 240 socket for generator or dryer (I have both in my garage).  If you have zero accessible 240v supply, sure then getting it installed might cost some money. Just use an L1.

Second, there are very few places in this country (maybe none) where even the least efficient electric vehicle costs more per mile than gasoline, even if you are comparing it to a prius. This is a fact, go do your own comparisons if you think otherwise.

And oh, range isn't advertised? Same as every car ever.  Research before you buy.

The fact is, for many people EVs are a great choice. For me it's damn near a no-brainer, I have very little daily commute, my electric is already setup, and I have an existing gasoline people mover if I need to take a long trip.  I just don't need a new vehicle at the moment (and new car prices are crazy).  I am on the reserve list for an F-150 Lightning though.


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## itsbob

Nobody is looking to the future.. 

How many have sat  in line at a gas station at a rest area, or in a city?  How long does it take to fuel a car?  5 minutes or less (not counting the nimrods that park at the pump while they go buy lunch)?

How frustrated did you get waiting 10 minutes, or 20?

Now lets take the best, Tesla, case scenario...  Now it takes 30 minutes to refuel, 6 times the amount of time it takes to refuel an ICE car, from here the numbers increase MUCH more than six times..  so in that 30 minutes of time to recharge, the waiting to fuel line increases 6 times over.. so your wait time increases by 36... So you need to recharge, you get into a line that is now 6 times longer, to wait for each car that takes 6 times more time to recharge.. so your 10 minute wait is now 360 or even 720 minutes.  ( it gets worse when you talk about the cars that take HOURS to recharge)

Of course, this is the easy math solution.. other things have to be factored.  How many places will have 50 or more charging stations that have the capability of supercharging at all stations?? 

Your 6x longer line gets worse, a lot worse, when you consider how often people will have to recharge.  I don't know of many cars not capable of 300 - 400 miles on a tank of gas.. and most of us stop at 50%, so generally speaking we stop every 200 - 250 miles.  Well, most electric cars don't have near the range, most vary between 140 - 250 miles, and like gas cars they are NOT going to wait to get to empty before they stop to charge, I doubt any of them let their cars get close to 1/4 before stopping.. but if EV drivers maintain the same habits they'll start looking at 1/2 tank mark, or they'll be stopping every 70 - 125 miles. Stopping more often, makes that line mentioned above even longer (up to twice as long).. so what does your wait time become then??

Lastly.. where the hell is all this electricity coming from??  The cheapest power plants to build and operate are STILL COAL... dirty, nasty coal.. China has already caught on, and they are busy little bees building coal fired electric plants.. how is this helping the climate?


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## glhs837

itsbob said:


> Nobody is looking to the future..
> 
> How many have sat  in line at a gas station at a rest area, or in a city?  How long does it take to fuel a car?  5 minutes or less (not counting the nimrods that park at the pump while they go buy lunch)?
> 
> How frustrated did you get waiting 10 minutes, or 20?
> 
> Now lets take the best, Tesla, case scenario...  Now it takes 30 minutes to refuel, 6 times the amount of time it takes to refuel an ICE car, from here the numbers increase MUCH more than six times..  so in that 30 minutes of time to recharge, the waiting to fuel line increases 6 times over.. so your wait time increases by 36... So you need to recharge, you get into a line that is now 6 times longer, to wait for each car that takes 6 times more time to recharge.. so your 10 minute wate is no 360 or even 720 minutes.
> 
> Of course, this is the easy math solution.. other things have to be factored.  How many places will have 50 or more charging stations that have the capability of supercharging at all stations??
> 
> Your 6x longer line gets worse, a lot worse, when you consider how often people will have to recharge.  I don't of many cars not capaeble of 300 - 400 miles on a tank of gas.. and most of us stop at 50%, so generally speaking we stop every 200 - 250 miles.  Well, most electric cars don't have near the range, most vary between 140 - 250 miles, and like gas cars they are NOT going to wait to get to empty before they stop to charge, I doubt any of them let their cars get close to 1/4 before stopping.. but if EV drivers maintain the same habits they'll start looking at 1/2 tank mark, or they'll be stopping every 70 - 125 miles. Stopping more often, makes that line mentioned above even longer (up to twice as long).. so what does your wait time become then??
> 
> Laslty.. where the hell is all this electricity coming from??  The cheapest power plants to build and operate are SILL COAL... dirty, nasty coal.. China has already caught on, and they are busy little bees building coal fired electric plants.. how is this helping the climate?



That's why govt should keep it's grubby lobbyist powered thumb off the scales. Left to itself, these problems will be solved by the market as adoption increases. Charge times have dropped over the last 5 years, and will continue to do so. More charging stations come online everyday, and will continue to do so. Best solution is nukes, hopefully some of these new designs can get past the idiots in the green movement.


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## Clem72

itsbob said:


> Now lets take the best, Tesla, case scenario... Now it takes 30 minutes to refuel, 6 times the amount of time it takes to refuel an ICE car, from here the numbers increase MUCH more than six times.. so in that 30 minutes of time to recharge, the waiting to fuel line increases 6 times over.. so your wait time increases by 36... So you need to recharge, you get into a line that is now 6 times longer, to wait for each car that takes 6 times more time to recharge.. so your 10 minute wait is now 360 or even 720 minutes. ( it gets worse when you talk about the cars that take HOURS to recharge)



Your best case scenario is already wrong, it's like 15 minutes for the smaller batteries up to 25 minutes for the larger batteries on the newest supercharging tech to fully charge, and like 5 minutes to get "100 miles" (I.E. a get-home charge).

But more importantly, 80+ percent of your charging needs will be done at home so you will have 80% less people needing to fill up at these stations. So if we went 100% EV tomorrow, and if we had even half as many charge stations as we have gas stations, you will never have a wait for a charge station.


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## Sneakers

Clem72 said:


> But more importantly, 80+ percent of your charging needs will be done at home so you will have 80% less people needing to fill up at these stations. So if we went 100% EV tomorrow, and if we had even half as many charge stations as we have gas stations, you will never have a wait for a charge station.


Yes and no.  I imagine all the cars currently that travel Rt 95 or Rt 40 or any other major interstate, and how many cars pull in and out at any given fuel depot in a 10 minute window.  Those folks aren't looking for a 'get home' charge, they want as much charge as they can get to get to their destination.  That will take time.  Also means rows and rows and rows of charge stations to come close to being able to satisfy.



glhs837 said:


> That's why govt should keep it's grubby lobbyist powered thumb off the scales. Left to itself, these problems will be solved by the market as adoption increases.


Not so sure about that.  Given the current state of the tech, if left to consumer demands only, it will take much much longer to come to fruition.  There are too many consumers that feel electric just isn't ready for prime time, and primarily due to battrey storage, and will continue to opt for ICE.

I like electric, and looking forware to having one, but until I can have one vehicle to satisfy everything I do (short trips, long trips, long trips with a trailer, etc..) I have to stay with ICE.


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## itsbob

Clem72 said:


> Your best case scenario is already wrong, it's like 15 minutes for the smaller batteries up to 25 minutes for the larger batteries on the newest supercharging tech to fully charge, and like 5 minutes to get "100 miles" (I.E. a get-home charge).
> 
> But more importantly, 80+ percent of your charging needs will be done at home so you will have 80% less people needing to fill up at these stations. So if we went 100% EV tomorrow, and if we had even half as many charge stations as we have gas stations, you will never have a wait for a charge station.


Sorry, but you are partially correct, as our LOCAL issues will be worse, but not to the extent I say above.. My point being.. if you have been to a place where there was a line (like inner city, or on an intestate) those lines will be exponentially worse.   I don't recall the last time I had to wait in line in St Mary's to get gas, and I doubt electric would be much different, though I don't see 48 charging stations at the corner of 235 and 4.. but maybe I've wrong.

But I guess you are suggesting when we go electric, no more vacations, no more long distance trips, no more interstate travel, nobody needing to be recharged enroute?

Add to that MASSIVE battery banks in commercial vehicles needing to be recharged..


----------



## Clem72

itsbob said:


> Sorry, but you are partially correct, as our LOCAL issues will be worse, but not to the extent I say above.. My point being.. if you have been to a place where there was a line (like inner city, or on an intestate) those lines will be exponentially worse.   I don't recall the last time I had to wait in line in St Mary's to get gas, and I doubt electric would be much different, though I don't see 48 charging stations at the corner of 235 and 4.. but maybe I've wrong.
> 
> But I guess you are suggesting when we go electric, no more vacations, no more long distance trips, no more interstate travel, nobody needing to be recharged enroute?
> 
> Add to that MASSIVE battery banks in commercial vehicles needing to be recharged..



You're an idiot, every worry you have has already been proven to be inaccurate. But whatever, time will tell.


----------



## glhs837

itsbob said:


> Sorry, but you are partially correct, as our LOCAL issues will be worse, but not to the extent I say above.. My point being.. if you have been to a place where there was a line (like inner city, or on an intestate) those lines will be exponentially worse.   I don't recall the last time I had to wait in line in St Mary's to get gas, and I doubt electric would be much different, though I don't see 48 charging stations at the corner of 235 and 4.. but maybe I've wrong.
> 
> But I guess you are suggesting when we go electric, no more vacations, no more long distance trips, no more interstate travel, nobody needing to be recharged enroute?
> 
> Add to that MASSIVE battery banks in commercial vehicles needing to be recharged..




So, locally, as noted, most folks will do home charging so the load on less local stations not a thing, really.









						Tesla deploys new mobile Supercharger powered by Megapack instead of diesel generators
					

Tesla appears to have designed a new version of its mobile Supercharger station that it deploys when traffic significantly increases, like with this holiday season. The new version is powered by Tesla’s new Megapack. After a year of anticipation, Tesla launched “Megapack” earlier this year. It’s...




					electrek.co
				




About long distance travel, the networks are growing. Tesla found a few holiday choke points and has beefed those points up, and have deployed portable charging stations to augment locations. If its done right, your vehicle knows where you are going, and what chargers are available and what to status is. And as I said, charging tech gets better all the time. Expect those times to drop even further in the next few years. Long before we see enough adoption that its a worry, I think.

Lastly, big rigs. Again, I'll stick with what I know. The real long haul, nobody's electrifying that yet, power density not there yet. The Tesla Semi good for 500 miles loaded, maybe better. Thats gets a huge amount of trucking done. The great majority of trucks simply don't so more than that in a day. So you can do a 500 one way, hit the charger built into the dock and recharge while your cargo is offloaded, or do a two way loaded both ways of 250 out and back and recharge at home base. Nice thing about loading docks, generally already have decent power feeds.


----------



## kwillia

What about the bumper to bumper commuters trying to get home during the winter.  Their usual one hour or one and a half hour commute can take twice as long and then some in typical winter weather. They will have to run heat and a large number of them will be on less than a full charge having already driven to work… what does their future look like?


----------



## Grumpy

No dog in this fight but I find it interesting that this guy was able to do the Cannonball run in an EV.


----------



## glhs837

kwillia said:


> What about the bumper to bumper commuters trying to get home during the winter.  Their usual one hour or one and a half hour commute can take twice as long and then some in typical winter weather. They will have to run heat and a large number of them will be on less than a full charge having already driven to work… what does their future look like?



I think like 90% of commuters have a total commute distance of around 30 miles a day. Heater isn't a huge drain, and when you are stuck in traffic, you are not spending energy just turning over a motor. Given a base of 250 miles range, folks will be fine.


----------



## kwillia

glhs837 said:


> I think like 90% of commuters have a total commute distance of around 30 miles a day. Heater isn't a huge drain, and when you are stuck in traffic, you are not spending energy just turning over a motor. Given a base of 250 miles range, folks will be fine.


From Leonardtown to Waldorf is 35 miles one way. Your answer is as weak as your car battery


----------



## TPD

Townhouses, rental houses, row houses, apartment dwellers - will all these be home chargers? As an owner of a rental house, I’m not sure I want to spend the money for a charger. Will city apartment owners spend the money to put a charging station at EVERY parking space? Can the current power grid at the average apartment building handle charging stations at every parking space with everyone charging simultaneously? Lots of questions.


----------



## glhs837

kwillia said:


> From Leonardtown to Waldorf is 35 miles one way. Your answer is as weak as your car battery



Just what it is. And all my batteries are 12 volt. I don't own an EV yet, waiting for my cybertruck... 





__





						How Far Do Americans Drive to Work on Average?
					

If you drive long distances to your job each day, you are not alone. According to ABC News, the average American drives 16 miles to work each way, with a daily commute totaling nearly an hour round trip.




					itstillruns.com


----------



## kwillia

glhs837 said:


> Just what it is. And all my batteries are 12 volt. I don't own an EV yet, waiting for my cybertruck...





> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Far Do Americans Drive to Work on Average?
> 
> 
> If you drive long distances to your job each day, you are not alone. According to ABC News, the average American drives 16 miles to work each way, with a daily commute totaling nearly an hour round trip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> itstillruns.com


Your general statistics have zero to do with the actuality’s of our area. I have watched it winter after winter on our local TV news. Thousands of people commuting from SOMD to DC, Annapolis, Dahlgren, Indian Head, etc are rolling their eyes at you.


----------



## GURPS

kwillia said:


> commuting from SOMD to DC, Annapolis, Dahlgren, Indian Head, etc are rolling their eyes at you.




Rt 210 sees an estimated 80,000 cars a day up and down the road ...


----------



## Blister

Just add thousands of car chargers when commuters come home on a warm summer evening. AC's cranked up, cooking dinner, doing laundry, etc. ,etc. The grid can't handle the load reliably now. "Cool Sentry" load shedding will become an every day event.



https://learn.pjm.com/three-priorities/keeping-the-lights-on/how-energy-use-varies 


The amount of electricity being used – called load – is affected by many factors, but mostly by temperature and time of day.

In winter and spring, electricity usage starts increasing in the morning around 5 a.m. People begin getting ready for work and school and, on a cold morning, turn the heat up, turn on the hot water or turn on the coffee maker. Multiply these actions by the millions of people PJM serves, and you can see why winter and spring load curves – the patterns of the ups and downs of electricity use through the day – quickly spike in the morning.





In the winter, usage typically declines between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. once buildings have warmed up and outside temperatures begin to rise. The degree to which the load decreases during this time depends on how sunny it is. If it is very sunny, the solar heat helps keep homes and businesses warm with less need to run heating equipment. On the other hand, very cloudy days do not provide this ambient heating. At 5 p.m., when people are getting home, there is another spike in energy use as lights and appliances are turned on at multiple homes and outside temperatures decrease as the sun sets. Load starts dropping off again when people power down to go to bed for the night.

In the summer and fall, electricity use increases gradually through the daytime as outside temperatures increase. The load peaks between 5 and 6 p.m. as people start getting home. Load starts dropping off as the sun and temperature go down because air conditioners are not running as often.




https://smecocoolsentry.com/residential/how_coolsentry_works.php

*How CoolSentry Works*



Once you schedule an installation, Itron certified technicians will custom install a programmable thermostat inside your home. If you were a participant in the previous Load Management program, we will remove your old load management switches.
You will maintain control of your thermostat. But on selected summer afternoons when the temperature soars, SMECO CoolSentry will activate a "conservation event".
During these times, your thermostat will receive a wireless signal that will put your air conditioner compressor into a "conservation mode". This signal will coordinate your A/C or heat pump with others in the neighborhood to manage electricity use.
During the conservation event, your A/C compressor remains in conservation mode and is cycled at the level you choose when you enroll:

*50% Cycling* means the compressor operates half the time it did prior to the conservation event.
*75% Cycling* means the compressor operates 25% of the time it did prior to the conservation event.
Regardless of which level is chosen, the A/C fan operates continuously throughout the conservation event, circulating air throughout your home.
*IF YOU ENROLLED IN SMECO COOLSENTRY BEFORE JANUARY 1, 2015,* you have been participating at the 50% Cycling level. If you wish to upgrade to the 75% Cycling level and earn $75 in annual bill credits, click here to make the change online or call 866-921-9474 to speak with a CoolSentry customer service representative.

Read our Frequently Asked Questions





_EmPOWER Maryland programs are funded by a charge on your energy bill. EmPOWER programs can help you reduce your energy consumption and save you money. Learn more about EmPOWER and how you can participate._


----------



## glhs837

kwillia said:


> Your general statistics have zero to do with the actuality’s of our area. I have watched it winter after winter on our local TV news. Thousands of people commuting from SOMD to DC, Annapolis, Dahlgren, Indian Head, etc are rolling their eyes at you.



But even at that, if you have 250 miles of range, getting back and forth to Dahlgren from St Inigoes is only 100 miles. Even if you are stuck in traffic with the heater, you should be fine. Although, if you have that commute, maybe go for a 300-350 mile range vehicle. To Alexandria, its 150, so for sure spring for the 350 mile range.


----------



## glhs837

Blister said:


> Just add thousands of car chargers when commuters come home on a warm summer evening. AC's cranked up, cooking dinner, doing laundry, etc. ,etc. The grid can't handle the load reliably now. "Cool Sentry" load shedding will become an every day event.



And thats where smart charging comes in. You can (with a decent EV, anyway) schedule your charging session to not start until after peak. The grid does need to expand, and I'm in favor of adding battery storage to the grid to add depth. And this is where the govt backing off a bit on subsidies helps. Slow adoption a bit to give the grid and infrastructure time to keep up. Buy some time for the new generation of nuke plants of shake out and start construction. I think there are four or five serious players in that game right now, they, like any thinking person, see the reality that we cannot make it without new nukes.


----------



## kwillia

glhs837 said:


> But even at that, if you have 250 miles of range, getting back and forth to Dahlgren from St Inigoes is only 100 miles. Even if you are stuck in traffic with the heater, you should be fine. Although, if you have that commute, maybe go for a 300-350 mile range vehicle. To Alexandria, its 150, so for sure spring for the 350 mile range.


I have yet to own anything that uses rechargeable batteries where the battery life works as promised.


----------



## glhs837

TPD said:


> Townhouses, rental houses, row houses, apartment dwellers - will all these be home chargers? As an owner of a rental house, I’m not sure I want to spend the money for a charger. Will city apartment owners spend the money to put a charging station at EVERY parking space? Can the current power grid at the average apartment building handle charging stations at every parking space with everyone charging simultaneously? Lots of questions.



Well, if my rental house were a bit more upscale, I might add one. Small cost to attract a different class of tenant. And like Starlink, urban settings are a challenge. Eventually what you'll see, I think is that parking meters become chargers as well. Apartments will offer what they can. Yep, there were lots of questions when the car started replacing horses also, but it happened one step at a time as the cost of cars dropped and the services to support them grew. 





kwillia said:


> I have yet to own anything that uses rechargeable batteries where the battery life works as promised.



And thats why I recommend a 350 mile range vehicle if you have a 150 mile commute. Nice thing, that data is out there. The EV nuts are great data folks, being a huge collection of nerds. 



			model 3 long range real world range - Google Search


----------



## GURPS

glhs837 said:


> Yep, there were lots of questions when the car started replacing horses also   ....




I remember seeing this picture in a history book, some bloke with what looks like a 35 gal barrel on wheels with a hand pump, selling gas for .12 cents a gal in a city circa 1910 .... and how in 10 yrs there were 1000's of Gas Stations 

in 1900 Gasoline was a waste product given away if you had the means to haul it

This is a great book on the pre interstate road system ...

*American Road: The Story of an Epic Transcontinental Journey at the Dawn of the Motor Age*


----------



## PeoplesElbow

itsbob said:


> Nobody is looking to the future..
> 
> How many have sat  in line at a gas station at a rest area, or in a city?  How long does it take to fuel a car?  5 minutes or less (not counting the nimrods that park at the pump while they go buy lunch)?
> 
> How frustrated did you get waiting 10 minutes, or 20?
> 
> Now lets take the best, Tesla, case scenario...  Now it takes 30 minutes to refuel, 6 times the amount of time it takes to refuel an ICE car, from here the numbers increase MUCH more than six times..  so in that 30 minutes of time to recharge, the waiting to fuel line increases 6 times over.. so your wait time increases by 36... So you need to recharge, you get into a line that is now 6 times longer, to wait for each car that takes 6 times more time to recharge.. so your 10 minute wait is now 360 or even 720 minutes.  ( it gets worse when you talk about the cars that take HOURS to recharge)
> 
> Of course, this is the easy math solution.. other things have to be factored.  How many places will have 50 or more charging stations that have the capability of supercharging at all stations??
> 
> Your 6x longer line gets worse, a lot worse, when you consider how often people will have to recharge.  I don't know of many cars not capable of 300 - 400 miles on a tank of gas.. and most of us stop at 50%, so generally speaking we stop every 200 - 250 miles.  Well, most electric cars don't have near the range, most vary between 140 - 250 miles, and like gas cars they are NOT going to wait to get to empty before they stop to charge, I doubt any of them let their cars get close to 1/4 before stopping.. but if EV drivers maintain the same habits they'll start looking at 1/2 tank mark, or they'll be stopping every 70 - 125 miles. Stopping more often, makes that line mentioned above even longer (up to twice as long).. so what does your wait time become then??
> 
> Lastly.. where the hell is all this electricity coming from??  The cheapest power plants to build and operate are STILL COAL... dirty, nasty coal.. China has already caught on, and they are busy little bees building coal fired electric plants.. how is this helping the climate?


That's why I think plug in hybrids are superior.  their battery packs are much smaller, using much less of a limited resource.


----------



## itsbob

glhs837 said:


> And thats where smart charging comes in. You can (with a decent EV, anyway) schedule your charging session to not start until after peak. The grid does need to expand, and I'm in favor of adding battery storage to the grid to add depth. And this is where the govt backing off a bit on subsidies helps. Slow adoption a bit to give the grid and infrastructure time to keep up. Buy some time for the new generation of nuke plants of shake out and start construction. I think there are four or five serious players in that game right now, they, like any thinking person, see the reality that we cannot make it without new nukes.


I'm curious about the millions or renters.. are landlords going to be expected to foot the bill for chargers??


----------



## itsbob

GURPS said:


> I remember seeing this picture in a history book, some bloke with what looks like a 35 gal barrel on wheels with a hand pump, selling gas for .12 cents a gal in a city circa 1910 .... and how in 10 yrs there were 1000's of Gas Stations
> 
> in 1900 Gasoline was a waste product given away if you had the means to haul it
> 
> This is a great book on the pre interstate road system ...
> 
> *American Road: The Story of an Epic Transcontinental Journey at the Dawn of the Motor Age*


In 1899 and 1900, electric vehicles outsold all other types of cars. In fact, 28 percent of all 4,192 cars produced in the US in 1900 were electric.

Been there done that, and ICE won out then.. What do they say about HIstory??


----------



## glhs837

itsbob said:


> I'm curious about the millions or renters.. are landlords going to be expected to foot the bill for chargers??



Those that want to attract tenants that want that. Like AC and washers and driers, its simply another amenity. One that will increasingly be seen as a thing the better places have, I think. I know if I were marketing my house now, I would go ahead and add one. The house I live in, not my three bedroom one bath 1,000 square foot rental built in1956 




itsbob said:


> In 1899 and 1900, electric vehicles outsold all other types of cars. In fact, 28 percent of all 4,192 cars produced in the US in 1900 were electric.
> 
> Been there done that, and ICE won out then.. What do they say about HIstory??



ICE won then because battery tech sucked. Right now, for most use cases, BEVs win. And that gap will grow as battery and vehicle cost and charge times go down and value for money gets even better. Right now when you run total cost of ownership numbers, BEVs win there. 

What they say is that those who dont learn are doomed. Looking at the value, looks like Tesla  are not repeating that.


----------



## itsbob

glhs837 said:


> And thats where smart charging comes in. You can (with a decent EV, anyway) schedule your charging session to not start until after peak.


That works today. When we approach EVs being close to 30% let alone 50%.. the second you start charging THAT will become the peak.. as more EVs come online, that peak will move, and will be a higher peak than say a mid afternoon in August.  So you, and everyone else, starts to charge at 1:30 am, because it's off peak and cheaper, and as more and more start to charge the KwH cost will increase accordingly and surpass the peak price you were trying to avoid.

Think brown outs are bad now, wait until you wake up in the morning to no power, and no car.


----------



## Sneakers

There's a few new start-ups taking advantage of people's worries, towable generators.  Kind of defeats the purpose of the EV tho...





This one is Little Generator Trailer available in Europe, and is intended for rental for those occasional long trips.  Adds about 360 miles.


----------



## glhs837

itsbob said:


> That works today. When we approach EVs being close to 30% let alone 50%.. the second you start charging THAT will become the peak.. as more EVs come online, that peak will move, and will be a higher peak than say a mid afternoon in August.  So you, and everyone else, starts to charge at 1:30 am, because it's off peak and cheaper, and as more and more start to charge the KwH cost will increase accordingly and surpass the peak price you were trying to avoid.
> 
> Think brown outs are bad now, wait until you wake up in the morning to no power, and no car.




I think we are at 2% now, so we have time. As long as we are smarter than CA.


----------



## Bonehead

I hope that I am long dead before I have to buy an EV.....just sayin'


----------



## Clem72

itsbob said:


> In 1899 and 1900, electric vehicles outsold all other types of cars. In fact, 28 percent of all 4,192 cars produced in the US in 1900 were electric.
> 
> Been there done that, and ICE won out then.. What do they say about HIstory??



Now I know you are retarded. Because tech certainly hasn't changed since 1900.


----------



## glhs837

Bonehead said:


> I hope that I am long dead before I have to buy an EV.....just sayin'



I mean the only reason to have to is eventually you won't be able to buy new gas cars, but I also think gas cars will be with us for at least another couple lifetimes. Even if the last one and a half lifetimes are akin to Jay Leno Stanley steemer. Even when I do get an Eevee I'll always have at least a couple of gas vehicles in the stable, a motorcycle and a convertible.


----------



## Sneakers

Ok, now THIS is pretty cool...




__





						480-HP Ford F-100 Eluminator Concept Shows What Electric Crate Motors Can Do
					

The vintage electric pickup truck has the same dual-motor powertrain as the Mustang Mach-E GT Performance, and the crate motor is for sale.




					www.caranddriver.com


----------



## itsbob

Clem72 said:


> Now I know you are retarded. Because tech certainly hasn't changed since 1900.


Point out where I said, or insinuated, that tech hasn't changed since 1900... I shared a little piece of history and your dumbass goes right to name-calling.


----------



## Kyle

What good is the Motor package without the support equipment and battery packs?

Seems this kit is missing a few items to make is productive.


----------



## Kyle




----------



## Clem72

itsbob said:


> Point out where I said, or insinuated, that tech hasn't changed since 1900... I shared a little piece of history and your dumbass goes right to name-calling.



While you may be mentally deficient, I assumed you could at least follow one step beyond the implication of your own statement.  Your statement "what do they say about history" was clearly meant to convey that we are "doomed to repeat" history of ICE vehicles winning out over electric. To which I responded that tech has changed.  Keep up retard.


----------



## itsbob

Clem72 said:


> While you may be mentally deficient, I assumed you could at least follow one step beyond the implication of your own statement.  Your statement "what do they say about history" was clearly meant to convey that we are "doomed to repeat" history of ICE vehicles winning out over electric. To which I responded that tech has changed.  Keep up retard.


Technology advances are never one sided.. or do you still need a crank to start your car with a wick for a carburetor?


----------



## Clem72

itsbob said:


> Technology advances are never one sided.. or do you still need a crank to start your car with a wick for a carburetor?



I dunno about the wick, but i'm pretty sure a crank always starts my car.


----------



## Sneakers

Clem72 said:


> I dunno about the wick, but i'm pretty sure a crank always starts my car.


old crank = nut behind the wheel ?


----------



## Kinnakeet

EV's are just plain stupid you are not saving anything fossil fuel is the only way and will always be the only way


----------



## Sneakers

JEFF69Z28 said:


> and will always be the only way


Not always.  Right now the tech is not ready for prime time, but in years to come it will supplant ICE engines.  New storage tech will be found, even the possibility of a new, yet unknown power source negating the need for batteries, like a major breakthrough of portable fusion, which would also negate the fossil fuel needed for manufacturing.


----------



## Kinnakeet

Sneakers said:


> Not always.  Right now the tech is not ready for prime time, but in years to come it will supplant ICE engines.  New storage tech will be found, even the possibility of a new, yet unknown power source negating the need for batteries, like a major breakthrough of portable fusion, which would also negate the fossil fuel needed for manufacturing.


Somehow I dont think big oil is going to let their profits go away anytime soon


----------



## glhs837

JEFF69Z28 said:


> EV's are just plain stupid you are not saving anything fossil fuel is the only way and will always be the only way


You can actually save a pretty good amount of money in total cost of ownership.  Hell when you do the math of $40,000, model 3 has a lower total cost of ownership than a Toyota Corolla.


----------



## Sneakers

JEFF69Z28 said:


> Somehow I dont think big oil is going to let their profits go away anytime soon


It's going to be a long term, long range goal and replacement.  It's for sure not an instant gratification that everyone thinks will happen.


----------



## GURPS

Sneakers said:


> New storage tech will be found,




Graphine is supposed to give us batteries that will recharge in about the same time to fill a tank of gas


----------



## PeoplesElbow

glhs837 said:


> You can actually save a pretty good amount of money in total cost of ownership.  Hell when you do the math of $40,000, model 3 has a lower total cost of ownership than a Toyota Corolla.


Does that figure include new tires every 10k miles?


----------



## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> Does that figure include new tires every 10k miles?



I would have to go look, but I think it uses owner reported data, which will vary. I think the average is 20-30k. They are heavy cars and use softer rubber than some folks might, I think. I'll take a peek later on. I wonder what tires the Cybertruck will come with. Of course the Real Truck Guys (tm) insist that if it doesn't come on 36 Mud Bloggers, it's a piece of trash  Of course, they also insist if it can't tow like an F750, you might as well crush it. Literally had one guy tell me it needs to be able to tow a Cat D5 or it's useless.


----------



## DaSDGuy

Sneakers said:


> Not always.  Right now the tech is not ready for prime time, but in *years to come* it will supplant ICE engines.  *New storage tech* will be found, even the possibility of a new, yet unknown power source negating the need for batteries, like a major breakthrough of *portable fusion*, which would also negate the fossil fuel needed for manufacturing.


And yet people are demanding EV legislation when the "New Storage Tech" as you call it doesn't exist.  Years to come.  Yeah, right.
In the software development world we call that vaporware, because it is nothing more than mouth exhaust words that have little if any possibility of existing in real life.  Portable fusion??? Do you really expect people to accept a small nuclear reactor sitting inside the vehicle with them?


----------



## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> Does that figure include new tires every 10k miles?



So this is a decent video, although 40K isnt realistic for tires. Neither is 10K, I think. 20 is where I think the average sits. So take his tire cost and double it, and you still end up $1000 to the good against a Camry. 









						Tesla Model Y & Model 3: True Cost Of Ownership Analyzed
					

Many people say they can't afford to buy an EV. That may not actually be true. To figure it out, you have to look at the total cost of ownership.




					insideevs.com
				




Like every car I've ever owned, I change the tires after the first set. I expect a Tesla would be no different. The SRT Chargers first 100K, I went through a set every 20-25K, except the silly high traction compound ones I was given to review. Those only lasted a glorious 15K


----------



## PeoplesElbow

glhs837 said:


> So this is a decent video, although 40K isnt realistic for tires. Neither is 10K, I think. 20 is where I think the average sits. So take his tire cost and double it, and you still end up $1000 to the good against a Camry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla Model Y & Model 3: True Cost Of Ownership Analyzed
> 
> 
> Many people say they can't afford to buy an EV. That may not actually be true. To figure it out, you have to look at the total cost of ownership.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like every car I've ever owned, I change the tires after the first set. I expect a Tesla would be no different. The SRT Chargers first 100K, I went through a set every 20-25K, except the silly high traction compound ones I was given to review. Those only lasted a glorious 15K


I've always gotten 50k+ on tires, except for the cheap ass ones my dad would put on his car. Average tire replacement seems to be in the $800-$1200 range, it's the most expensive part of car maintenance I've had in 30 years.

A little cheaper in southern MD since I dont need snow tires here.

My opinion the problem is the unadjustable camber, inside s of the tires wear bad.









						Tesla Model 3 Tire Wear: Is Yours Getting Bad? Here's How to Solve It
					

Wondering whether your Tesla Model 3 tire wear is unusual? Listen to owners and experts on tire life, maintenance tips, and best tire shops.




					teslatuneup.com


----------



## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> I've always gotten 50k+ on tires, except for the cheap ass ones my dad would put on his car. Average tire replacement seems to be in the $800-$1200 range, it's the most expensive part of car maintenance I've had in 30 years.
> 
> A little cheaper in southern MD since I dont need snow tires here.
> 
> My opinion the problem is the unadjustable camber, inside s of the tires wear bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla Model 3 Tire Wear: Is Yours Getting Bad? Here's How to Solve It
> 
> 
> Wondering whether your Tesla Model 3 tire wear is unusual? Listen to owners and experts on tire life, maintenance tips, and best tire shops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teslatuneup.com




Agree, I generally get better than expected wear from my tires. But, as noted, if you use 25-30K for the Tesla tire wear, your TCO is still much lower. Of course, these calculations take into account following manufacturer (not dealership) recommendations as once you start positing owner performed maint your calculations go sideways. Lots of folks might do oil changes. But brake fluid flush, differential service? Your options get messy. 

Even without that adjustment, people are getting reasonable wear for a car that weighs that much and the softness of the stock rubber. 

I might look for a tire from Vredstein or Hankook, both brands I used on the SRTs and they did quite well.


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## PeoplesElbow

glhs837 said:


> Agree, I generally get better than expected wear from my tires. But, as noted, if you use 25-30K for the Tesla tire wear, your TCO is still much lower. Of course, these calculations take into account following manufacturer (not dealership) recommendations as once you start positing owner performed maint your calculations go sideways. Lots of folks might do oil changes. But brake fluid flush, differential service? Your options get messy.
> 
> Even without that adjustment, people are getting reasonable wear for a car that weighs that much and the softness of the stock rubber.
> 
> I might look for a tire from Vredstein or Hankook, both brands I used on the SRTs and they did quite well.


I've always had good luck with Cooper's, my friend owns a garage that primarily sells them. The CS5 is a good touring tire, and evolutions for the truck.


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## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> And yet people are demanding EV legislation when the "New Storage Tech" as you call it doesn't exist.  Years to come.  Yeah, right.
> In the software development world we call that vaporware, because it is nothing more than mouth exhaust words that have little if any possibility of existing in real life.  Portable fusion??? Do you really expect people to accept a small nuclear reactor sitting inside the vehicle with them?




Okay, what exactly are you responding to? Big thread, lots of posts. If by new storage tech, you mean deployed battery grid storage, it certainly does exist and the industry has crazy growth. And it's not about govt subsidies driving this, like Marylands failed solar bullshit. Energy producers realize that batteries are far less expensive to build than peaker plants, require no fuel, and respond much much faster. In Australia, where a grid was under such peak pressure that it was notorious for browning out, Tesla built the Hornsdale Big Battery for a French company, which is making them money while stabilizing the grid and reducing brown/blackout.  

"Grid battery energy storage market fundamentals proved to be adequately strong against the COVID-19 turmoil. In 2020, the global market expanded 47.3% with 2.4 GW of new power capacity. A robust outlook is expected for the decade ahead. The publisher forecasts the annual power capacity to reach 19.3 GW by 2030, amounting to 134.6 GW/437.4 GWh of cumulated capacity, and the annual investment to rise from $2 billion in 2020 to $15.94 billion by 2030."









						Worldwide Grid Battery Energy Storage Industry to 2030 - In 2020, the Global Market Expanded 47.3% With 2.4 GW of New Power Capacity
					

/PRNewswire/ -- The "Electricity Market Modernization and Cost Reductions Powering the Global Grid Battery Energy Storage Market" report has been added to...




					www.prnewswire.com
				




Tesla has sold out of grid storage products through all of 2022. Business is strong. 









						Tesla deployed 1.3GWh of energy storage in Q2 2021 with ‘Megapacks sold out to 2023’
					

Tesla has reported more than 200% year-on-year increases in both solar and energy storage deployments for the second quarter of this year, during which time the company also produced and delivered more than 200,000 vehicles.




					www.energy-storage.news
				














						Hornsdale and its big Tesla battery exceed expectations as storage revenue surges
					

The surge in storage revenue due to specific grid conditions in Australia was one of the main factors behind a 61% year-on-year increase in revenues that Neoen saw in the first quarter of the year.




					pv-magazine-usa.com


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## Kyle

DaSDGuy said:


> Portable fusion???* Do you really expect people to accept a small nuclear reactor sitting inside the vehicle with them?*



Accidents would clear from the road much faster!


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## glhs837

PeoplesElbow said:


> I've always had good luck with Cooper's, my friend owns a garage that primarily sells them. The CS5 is a good touring tire, and evolutions for the truck.



I think that's what we put on the sons project XJ project. Good tires. I always look at them, but generally there's one attribute I'm after that precludes them. Not always the same one, as I weight things differently for each vehicles purpose. The beater 2001 BMW that cost $1500 bucks? Cost and life. The 98 328 convertible, trade some life for handling, winter capability not required


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## DaSDGuy

glhs837 said:


> *Okay, what exactly are you responding to? *Big thread, lots of posts. If by new storage tech, you mean deployed battery grid storage, it certainly does exist and the industry has crazy growth. And it's not about govt subsidies driving this, like Marylands failed solar bullshit. Energy producers realize that batteries are far less expensive to build than peaker plants, require no fuel, and respond much much faster. In Australia, where a grid was under such peak pressure that it was notorious for browning out, Tesla built the Hornsdale Big Battery for a French company, which is making them money while stabilizing the grid and reducing brown/blackout.
> 
> "Grid battery energy storage market fundamentals proved to be adequately strong against the COVID-19 turmoil. In 2020, the global market expanded 47.3% with 2.4 GW of new power capacity. A robust outlook is expected for the decade ahead. The publisher forecasts the annual power capacity to reach 19.3 GW by 2030, amounting to 134.6 GW/437.4 GWh of cumulated capacity, and the annual investment to rise from $2 billion in 2020 to $15.94 billion by 2030."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worldwide Grid Battery Energy Storage Industry to 2030 - In 2020, the Global Market Expanded 47.3% With 2.4 GW of New Power Capacity
> 
> 
> /PRNewswire/ -- The "Electricity Market Modernization and Cost Reductions Powering the Global Grid Battery Energy Storage Market" report has been added to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.prnewswire.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla has sold out of grid storage products through all of 2022. Business is strong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla deployed 1.3GWh of energy storage in Q2 2021 with ‘Megapacks sold out to 2023’
> 
> 
> Tesla has reported more than 200% year-on-year increases in both solar and energy storage deployments for the second quarter of this year, during which time the company also produced and delivered more than 200,000 vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.energy-storage.news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hornsdale and its big Tesla battery exceed expectations as storage revenue surges
> 
> 
> The surge in storage revenue due to specific grid conditions in Australia was one of the main factors behind a 61% year-on-year increase in revenues that Neoen saw in the first quarter of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pv-magazine-usa.com


I will respond to the part of your post that I have bolded. 
My response you obviously didn't thoroughly read started with a post by Sneakers that apparently has been deleted.  Maybe you should ask why that happened instead of asking me to do your homework for you.

Edit: Found it - post #75.  Apologies Sneakers.


----------



## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> Do you really expect people to accept a small nuclear reactor sitting inside the vehicle with them?


Wasn't that long ago that people said the same thing about a tankful of volatile and highly explosive gasoline.


----------



## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> with a post by Sneakers that apparently has been deleted


I've deleted nothing.  No idea what you think you read.


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## DaSDGuy

Sneakers said:


> I've deleted nothing.  No idea what you think you read.


My bad.  Your post #75.  I did a quick browse before I replied to glsh837 and didn't see it.  Got it now. Edited my reply too.
No offense meant.


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## Sneakers

DaSDGuy said:


> My bad.  Your post #75.  I did a quick browse before I replied to glsh837 and didn't see it.  Got it now. Edited my reply too.
> No offense meant.


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## glhs837

DaSDGuy said:


> I will respond to the part of your post that I have bolded.
> My response you obviously didn't thoroughly read started with a post by Sneakers that apparently has been deleted.  Maybe you should ask why that happened instead of asking me to do your homework for you.
> 
> Edit: Found it - post #75.  Apologies Sneakers.



Well, for some reason, not sure how, but Sneakers ended up on my ignore list, which explains why I didn't see what you were responding to.


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## glhs837

Sneakers said:


> Not always.  Right now the tech is not ready for prime time, but in years to come it will supplant ICE engines.  New storage tech will be found, even the possibility of a new, yet unknown power source negating the need for batteries, like a major breakthrough of portable fusion, which would also negate the fossil fuel needed for manufacturing.




And he's back.


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## PeoplesElbow

glhs837 said:


> I think that's what we put on the sons project XJ project. Good tires. I always look at them, but generally there's one attribute I'm after that precludes them. Not always the same one, as I weight things differently for each vehicles purpose. The beater 2001 BMW that cost $1500 bucks? Cost and life. The 98 328 convertible, trade some life for handling, winter capability not required




Having a good friend that puts on thousands of tires a year that tells me things like "those tires are over priced, I recommend these ones instead" goes a long way. His advertised prices include mounting balancing etc too.


----------



## stgislander

glhs837 said:


> Well, for some reason, not sure how, but *Sneakers ended up on my ignore list*, which explains why I didn't see what you were responding to.


That's understandable.


----------



## Sneakers

stgislander said:


> That's understandable.


BTW, you owe me $40 for lunch.


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## Kyle

Sneakers said:


> BTW, you owe me $40 for lunch.


  WTH did he order? 

Lobster Thermidor and a bottle of Piper-Heidsieck?


----------



## stgislander

Sneakers said:


> BTW, you owe me $40 for lunch.


----------



## Sneakers

stgislander said:


>


Yeah.  Sorry.  Forgot who you work for.

Round it to $50 and we'll call it square.


----------



## PeoplesElbow

Fisker is set to unveil their Ocean SUV on Nov 17th. I sold my FSR stock at $19 but I expect it to go into the $30 range by the end of next week.


----------



## GURPS

*Ford And Purdue Made A Cable That Could Charge An EV in 5 Minutes*


*The cable can handle 2,400 amps using liquid phase change cooling.*


----------



## GURPS

*THIS GRAPHENE BATTERY PACK CHARGES INCREDIBLY FAST*


Graphene is a highly conductive lattice of carbon only one atom thick. Pure graphene batteries are still too expensive to mass-produce, but the material can already accelerate the charging characteristics of traditional batteries when applied to an electrode in composite form. That’s the approach Elecjet is taking with its new 10,000mAh (40Wh) battery launching today on Indiegogo for $65.

In addition to a faster charge rate, Elecjet says the Apollo Ultra will last for more than 2,500 charging cycles before the battery drops below 80 percent health. That’s roughly four to five times longer than conventional lithium-ion battery packs, which would be good for both your wallet and the environment.

I can’t conceivably test the lifespan claim, but Elecjet did send me a review sample of the Apollo Ultra to validate the improved charging speed.
In short, the Apollo Ultra charges fast — _incredibly_ fast, just as Elecjet claims.


----------



## glhs837

I mean I understand the allure of all the laboratory stuff and prototype stuff, but getting things that live in the real world where people actually buy things, it's a lot harder.  And I know you don't get one without the other, but I certainly wouldn't invest based on lab stuff.  Scale matters.


----------



## GURPS

*Tesla’s Conviction in Norway for Capping Model S Voltage Is Confirmed*



On May 17, 2021, Tesla was ordered to pay 136,000 kroner ($14,970 at the current exchange rate) to 30 Norwegian customers affected by the software updates 2019.16.1 or 2019.16.2. These OTA (over-the-air) updates capped the voltage of Model S and Model X battery pack cells, making supercharging much slower and restricting range. According to the Norwegian newspaper _DN (Dagens Næringsliv)_, that sentence was confirmed.

We have no access to the original report, so we have asked the author for a full glimpse. Thankfully, we have previously contacted Christian Hagen Tønsberg, the lawyer from the CLP law firm responsible for the lawsuit, and some of his colleagues. We got in touch with him again to clarify some doubts involving the new decision. Unfortunately, we have not heard back from any of these folks so far, so we’ll leave the clarifications for another article.

Apparently, the difference from the original conviction to the latest one is that Tesla had its lawyers at whatever court decided about it this time. We have no idea if it was the same conciliatory board that issued an absentee judgment after Tesla failed to submit a statement of defense. It could also be the District Court that solves these matters when any parties appeal. The conciliatory board is a necessary step before reaching the District Court.


----------



## Gilligan

GURPS said:


> *Ford And Purdue Made A Cable That Could Charge An EV in 5 Minutes*
> 
> 
> *The cable can handle 2,400 amps using liquid phase change cooling.*



Can't wait for the video to come out of the same gal that filled the gas tank on her SUV with DEF.....after she gets an electric vehicle and gets her hands on one of the 2400A charging lines.


----------



## Clem72

GURPS said:


> *THIS GRAPHENE BATTERY PACK CHARGES INCREDIBLY FAST*
> 
> 
> Graphene is a highly conductive lattice of carbon only one atom thick. Pure graphene batteries are still too expensive to mass-produce, but the material can already accelerate the charging characteristics of traditional batteries when applied to an electrode in composite form. That’s the approach Elecjet is taking with its new 10,000mAh (40Wh) battery launching today on Indiegogo for $65.
> 
> In addition to a faster charge rate, Elecjet says the Apollo Ultra will last for more than 2,500 charging cycles before the battery drops below 80 percent health. That’s roughly four to five times longer than conventional lithium-ion battery packs, which would be good for both your wallet and the environment.
> 
> I can’t conceivably test the lifespan claim, but Elecjet did send me a review sample of the Apollo Ultra to validate the improved charging speed.
> In short, the Apollo Ultra charges fast — _incredibly_ fast, just as Elecjet claims.



BTW, this is complete bullshit. There might be "graphene" in this battery, but it's just so no one sues them for completely lying.  Conventional NIMH quick charge is already faster than this battery.  There are phones out there, right now, that charge at 120W over USB-C.  This super-fast "graphene" battery charges 10000mAh (40WH) in 30 minutes according to the author, so that's an average rate of 80W over a half hour.

Sounds to me like they took 8 2500mah flat pack cells (50% over-provision) and charge them from 0 (really 25%) to 100% (really 75%) with zero voltage ramping to get the maximum speed while not degrading cell life. Then they just give you 4x the cell life claim since they are only using 50% of the batteries capacity it's likely to last much longer before any degradation is noticed.  I could design this same battery in my basement today.


----------



## GURPS

*Toyota Will Build $1.3 Billion Electric Car Battery Plant In North Carolina*


----------



## Kyle

I'm betting 30 years from now the electricity won't be "green enough" to suit the nutjobs and they'll be pushing a newer technology.


----------



## glhs837

Clem72 said:


> BTW, this is complete bullshit. There might be "graphene" in this battery, but it's just so no one sues them for completely lying.  Conventional NIMH quick charge is already faster than this battery.  There are phones out there, right now, that charge at 120W over USB-C.  This super-fast "graphene" battery charges 10000mAh (40WH) in 30 minutes according to the author, so that's an average rate of 80W over a half hour.
> 
> Sounds to me like they took 8 2500mah flat pack cells (50% over-provision) and charge them from 0 (really 25%) to 100% (really 75%) with zero voltage ramping to get the maximum speed while not degrading cell life. Then they just give you 4x the cell life claim since they are only using 50% of the batteries capacity it's likely to last much longer before any degradation is noticed.  I could design this same battery in my basement today.





This is why I ignore 90% of such news. Reporters are impressed by lab results. They seem to never care that most of what impresses in the lab will never pass the test to get into production. 







GURPS said:


> *Toyota Will Build $1.3 Billion Electric Car Battery Plant In North Carolina*




But what happened to "Screw EVs, hydrogen, my boy, thats the future, hydrogen!!!!!"


----------



## Clem72

glhs837 said:


> But what happened to "Screw EVs, hydrogen, my boy, thats the future, hydrogen!!!!!"



That was a pipe dream of the Japanese government and taken up by Toyota/Honda only. No one else ever considered it seriously.


----------



## Kyle

Clem72 said:


> That was a pipe dream of the Japanese government and taken up by Toyota/Honda only. No one else ever considered it seriously.


So Mercedes isn't going to built the all new Luxury 2022 Hindenburg?


----------



## Sneakers

Clem72 said:


> That was a pipe dream of the Japanese government and taken up by Toyota/Honda only. No one else ever considered it seriously.


Someone did, because there were hydrogen refueling stations all around BWI.  No idea if they are still there.


----------



## glhs837

Clem72 said:


> That was a pipe dream of the Japanese government and taken up by Toyota/Honda only. No one else ever considered it seriously.



Exactly. Even as recently as this year, Toyotas on record proclaiming that EVs are a dead end, HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE!!!!



Sneakers said:


> Someone did, because there were hydrogen refueling stations all around BWI.  No idea if they are still there.



Sure its not CNG? I cant find any record of hydrogen stations there. This article mentions a startup that hopes to make some starting this year. I saw another article that mentioned that three FCEVs were sold in MD, but that there were no filling stations as of 2019. 









						This Maryland startup is developing charging stations for cars powered by hydrogen - Technical.ly
					

Ally Power is looking to develop 12 charging stations in the DMV and California that would both charge zero-emissions hydrogen vehicles, and put energy back into the grid.




					technical.ly


----------



## Sneakers

glhs837 said:


> Sure its not CNG? I cant find any record of hydrogen stations there.


This is going back 10-15 years.  I used to drive past BWI on 97 almost daily, and there were signs for Hydrogen refueling on the highway, and I seem to remember the airport was trying out hydrogen service vehicles.  Pretty sure it was hydrogen and not CNG.


----------

