# Another Solar Thread



## SamSpade

For most of us with single family homes - is it even possible to install enough solar panels to bring the bill down to zero?
Has anyone experienced this - and if you have, did you have to go to something else also - like gas heat?
Geothermal? What did it?


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## MR47930

Lowered our electric bill in the winters from $400-$500 a month to <$100 by installing a pellet stove instead of using the electric heat pump. Looking to update our AC units (17 years old) with new, more energy efficient/high SEER units. Every time I replace a light bulb I make sure its replaced with LED bulbs. We bought black out shades for the south side of our house to keep the sun out in the dead of the summer. When we replace the AC units I want to replace the thermostats with a Nest or similar "smart" device. Solar just doesn't seem to be beneficial yet. I like the idea but the 30 year payback on your investment isn't ideal.


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## itsbob

SamSpade said:


> For most of us with single family homes - is it even possible to install enough solar panels to bring the bill down to zero?
> Has anyone experienced this - and if you have, did you have to go to something else also - like gas heat?
> Geothermal? What did it?



We got our first "zero" bill last month.. with only 80% of panels that were suggested installed.

We upgraded our HVAC to 21.5 SEER (from 10 SEER) and a gas back up furnace (no more emergency electric heat), and converted the entire house to LED lights, more for the preference of the lighting than the savings.

We went with a gas tankless water heater a long time ago.. 

SO we have a zero electric bill, but still have a gas bill to pay, though even that bill is minor.

Zero meaning you can get your bill down to $15 - 20 a month.. even if you use NO electricity (after the solar difference is calculated) you still have to pay the fees and distribution charges.

Forgot to add.. we did end up trimming and/or removing several trees to make our solar more efficient.  More trees to come down as we continue to try to broaden the bell curve

All told, last May 1267 kWh/ $180 used, this May, Zero/ $9.86 (distribution charges)  with an additional credit of 150 kWh.


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## Gilligan

SamSpade said:


> For most of us with single family homes - is it even possible to install enough solar panels to bring the bill down to zero?



It's tough to do..and very expensive...but possible. It's not just the panels..the large array of storage batteries, battery charge controller, and large inverter to make the AC, all run the cost way up. I priced out a hybrid system for our off-grid island club and it was going to cost over 30 grand for just the components. Was going to complete the installation our self.  But that said...that's not a good example for a single-family home because the club power duty cycle (3 days use followed by 4 days of no power required) allows for lower storage capacity and lower panel output. I'd guess the cost for a typical family home would be at least double the estimate I came up with..perhaps even more.


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## Gilligan

itsbob said:


> We got our first "zero" bill last month.. with only 80% of panels that were suggested installed.
> 
> We upgraded our HVAC to 21.5 SEER (from 10 SEER) and a gas back up furnace (no more emergency electric heat), and converted the entire house to LED lights, more for the preference of the lighting than the savings.
> 
> We went with a gas tankless water heater a long time ago..
> 
> SO we have a zero electric bill, but still have a gas bill to pay, though even that bill is minor.
> 
> Zero meaning you can get your bill down to $15 - 20 a month.. even if you use NO electricity (after the solar difference is calculated) you still have to pay the fees and distribution charges.
> 
> Forgot to add.. we did end up trimming and/or removing several trees to make our solar more efficient.  More trees to come down as we continue to try to broaden the bell curve



Well that's quite an accomplishment!  How much does that large of an installation end up costing?


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## itsbob

After doing the math and with the 30% "rebate" our break even point is 8 years.

We talked with Solar City and continuing to pay them for our electric with a $25 savings (on a 20 year lease) wasn't worth it, or the $72,000 in cash they wanted for us to buy the system wasn't feasible.  After shopping around a LOT we ended on two companies in MD.. Paradise Energy Solutions, and 21st Century, financially it was a coin flip, but 21st Century seemed to do a better job at the site survey and actually looking at the house prior to install.

I think we would have been happy with either company but went with 21st Century.. they completed the install in December and in January we did our taxes and got 30% of the cost back.  That 30% is what got us to make the jump to Solar.

Again, doing the math, Solar City you pay much more than a "normal" solar company buying the panels outright, and you lose the 30% rebate... Over the 20 year period I estimated your "lease" payments work out to 2 or 3 times the cash price going elsewhere..


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## itsbob

Gilligan said:


> Well that's quite an accomplishment!  How much does that large of an installation end up costing?



After the rebate about the same as your estimate, a little less than 30k.. NO batteries.  42 panels and Inverter, and install..


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## GURPS

Gilligan said:


> I'd guess the cost for a typical family home would be at least double the estimate I came up with..perhaps even more.




I did 'back of the napkin' estimating a few yrs back ...  $ 60k to get the house 'off the grid'


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## itsbob

GURPS said:


> I did 'back of the napkin' estimating a few yrs back ...  $ 60k to get the house 'off the grid'



Minus 30%, brings that down to 40k..


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## kwillia

itsbob said:


> Minus 30%, brings that down to 40k..


Who pays for repairs/battery replacements? Who pays to dismantle/re-install when you have to fix and/or replace your roof?


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## itsbob

No batteries.

Panels are warranted for 20 years.. (LG panels so not too worried about them going out of business)

Mechanics (like Inverters) are warranted for 15.. 

There really isn't much to a solar install on the roof.. unplug and remove the panels, remove the rails, and the mounting hardware wouldn't be difficult to shingle around.. part of the design I would think.  I can't imagine it would add more than $500 - 1000 for a new roof install. 


After you remove the panels, and the rails (the panels actually attach to rails ran from one mounting point to another.. there aren't many mounting points left on the roof.


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## SamSpade

MR47930 said:


> Lowered our electric bill in the winters from $400-$500 a month to <$100 by installing a pellet stove...



Can I ask you a few things?

Do you have to keep a really large supply of pellets on hand?
When you installed it - was it a simple matter of attaching it to existing duct work?
Did you replace your heat pump - do you use it for AC during summer?
Did you need to have an external flue or chimney running up the side of your house for the stove?

What size is your house? Mine has two zones (large extension over the garage) and one source for heat isn't enough.


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## SamSpade

itsbob said:


> After the rebate about the same as your estimate, a little less than 30k.. NO batteries.  42 panels and Inverter, and install..



Wow. *42* panels? How much roof is that? I'd have to think you have every inch of your roof covered.


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## BadGirl

SamSpade said:


> Wow. *42* panels? How much roof is that? I'd have to think you have every inch of your roof covered.


Shoot, that is just the back of the house, as we still have a fair amount of open area with no panels.  We still do not have any panels on the front of the house, or on either side of our garage.  If we panel'ed the entire roof, we'd need about 125 panels, and we ain't rich enough for that.


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## itsbob

SamSpade said:


> Wow. *42* panels? How much roof is that? I'd have to think you have every inch of your roof covered.



December 1st right after the install of the panels (not hooked up at his point) at just about 2 PM.. 

This isn't the most efficient roof to have them on, we have a garage roof that is Perpendicular to this one that would get a lot more morning sun.. but not as large an area.

You can see from this picture why we had to thin the forest a bit.. Currently we start getting shade on the back roof about 5PM but nowhere near as bad as this..


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## Gilligan

itsbob said:


> . NO batteries.  42 panels and Inverter, and install..



The system I designed has to have the battery storage because it's completely off the grid. So that part would not apply to a regular home...I realize that.


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## itsbob

Gilligan said:


> The system I designed has to have the battery storage because it's completely off the grid. So that part would not apply to a regular home...I realize that.



We've been thinking about if for years.. but always in the back of my mind was.. What's coming?? How much are the prices going to come down??

Finally just bit the bullet.. now I'm sure for everyone else, the prices will come down and new more efficient systems will be coming out this year..


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## MR47930

SamSpade said:


> Can I ask you a few things?
> 
> Qo you have to keep a really large supply of pellets on hand?
> A:_Yes, we keep 4+ tons on hand for the winter and I stash up in the summer when prices are low. 2 tons fit on a pallet if stacked ~8ft high._
> Q:When you installed it - was it a simple matter of attaching it to existing duct work?
> A:_It's not hooked into duct work, its basically a super high powered space heater that hardly uses any electricity._
> Qid you replace your heat pump - do you use it for AC during summer?
> A:_We haven't replaced our heat pump yet. We plan to replace the outside AC units next spring when we get our 2017 tax return. We do not use electric heat at all anymore since getting the pellet stove._
> Qid you need to have an external flue or chimney running up the side of your house for the stove?
> A:_Not necessarily, we replaced a direct vent gas fireplace that was useless so the vent for the pellet stove is the same hole, straight out from the house (different vent pipes)._
> Q:What size is your house? Mine has two zones (large extension over the garage) and one source for heat isn't enough.
> A: _2300 sq feet main floor and upstairs. We have 2 heatpumps but our house is somewhat open concept so the heat from the pellet stove travels upstairs nicely. We do have 1000sq ft finished basement that is underground, and that gets chilly in the winters since it is unheated (heat travels up, not down). We bought one of those infrared space heaters and I'll wear sweats and slippers when I'm down there watching football on the 70"_.



Answers in italics above.

Anyone look into the Tesla solar tiles? They look like regular shingles and have a lifetime warranty. I assume they dont come cheap.


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## Clem72

So someone mentioned their heat pump with electric backup can run them 500/mo. in the winter. Is this normal? I currently have an older heat pump with natural gas backup and my combined gas/electric bill is usually under 200 even in the worst winter.

What is the HSPF rating of your system? How warm did you keep it in the winter?


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## Chris0nllyn

Clem72 said:


> So someone mentioned their heat pump with electric backup can run them 500/mo. in the winter. Is this normal? I currently have an older heat pump with natural gas backup and my combined gas/electric bill is usually under 200 even in the worst winter.
> 
> What is the HSPF rating of your system? How warm did you keep it in the winter?



Depending on the size of the system, yes, it can be. 

The emergency backup electric coils are 12kW (give or take). If it runs 12 hours/day in emergency mode, and using 10 cents/kWH, that's $438.30 per month just for the heat.


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## Clem72

Chris0nllyn said:


> Depending on the size of the system, yes, it can be.
> 
> The emergency backup electric coils are 12kW (give or take). If it runs 12 hours/day in emergency mode, and using 10 cents/kWH, that's $438.30 per month just for the heat.



Guess I just don't know if 12 hours a day (50% runtime) would be normal? And is this only when it's below freezing outside?  I remember I was looking at a low-ambient temperature unit a few years ago that said it would work to 0 degrees, but I think that was in combination with electric heat (but not 100% resistive heating).

I'm interested because I have been considering moving away from town, but there is no way I could afford to treble my energy bill.


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## Chris0nllyn

Clem72 said:


> Guess I just don't know if 12 hours a day (50% runtime) would be normal? And is this only when it's below freezing outside?  I remember I was looking at a low-ambient temperature unit a few years ago that said it would work to 0 degrees, but I think that was in combination with electric heat (but not 100% resistive heating).
> 
> I'm interested because I have been considering moving away from town, but there is no way I could afford to treble my energy bill.



It can be normal if it's really cold.

Normally the heat pump runs, but HPs are not efficient below a certain temperature (usually about 40*) and the emergency heat kicks on (or manually turned on via the t-stat) when the heat pump can't gather any more heat from outside air. 

Now, electric emergency heat isn't mandatory. You can get a hybrid system which is a heat pump with oil or propane backup heat. Most of the new systems are already setup for it and a simple outdoor thermostat/sensor is installed to let the system know when to switch over to oil/propane heat when the temp is too low for efficient heat pump use.

This is not to be confused with auxiliary heat. It's the same coil, but helps defrost the condensor coils. There's no getting around that, but still costs $$$ when it's on.


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## Gilligan

Chris0nllyn said:


> Depending on the size of the system, yes, it can be.
> 
> The emergency backup electric coils are 12kW (give or take). If it runs 12 hours/day in emergency mode, and using 10 cents/kWH, that's $438.30 per month just for the heat.



That's the one thing that's got me worried about what we went with in our new still-under-construction house. 23 SEER units running a 5-zone system, but no backup for the heat except the electric coils.  Super tight and super insulated...but still concerned. This will be the first house I've owned that had no fuel-based backup heat.


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## Chris0nllyn

Gilligan said:


> That's the one thing that's got me worried about what we went with in our new still-under-construction house. 23 SEER units running a 5-zone system, but no backup for the heat except the electric coils.  Super tight and super insulated...but still concerned. This will be the first house I've owned that had no fuel-based backup heat.



What ton system? 

J calcs (heat loss) should be low if built tight. I've seen some coils on larger systems as big as 24kW. I'd be using sleeping bags.


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## Gilligan

Chris0nllyn said:


> What ton system?



2 times 3 ton..I think. I'd have to check the paperwork to refresh my memory.


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## PeoplesElbow

My electric bill last month was $55 and I don't have solar.


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## black dog

PeoplesElbow said:


> My electric bill last month was $55 and I don't have solar.



Yep mine was half of that, my NG made up the difference.
 My sailboat has panels and a wind turbine, lots of time to keep everything happy happy when it all gets used and not in a slip. 

 It's easy to have a break even on a month that you don't need heat or AC. 
 I'd like to see how well it does on cost this coming Aug  and Dec.


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## black dog

Gilligan said:


> 2 times 3 ton..I think. I'd have to check the paperwork to refresh my memory.



 That would make me really nervous with a home that size.
 I'd have to at least have a pellet somewhere in the home.
 Plans to have, say a 30,000 Genny ?


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## Clem72

MR47930 said:


> Answers in italics above.
> 
> Anyone look into the Tesla solar tiles? They look like regular shingles and have a lifetime warranty. I assume they dont come cheap.



https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/heres-how-much-a-tesla-solar-roof-will-cost-you

Looks like the installed cost is between asphalt shingles and tile. If you consider the value of the energy production, they may be cheaper than asphalt. I didn't see any mention of cost for inverters for grid tie, which isn't cheap.


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## Chris0nllyn

Clem72 said:


> https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/heres-how-much-a-tesla-solar-roof-will-cost-you
> 
> Looks like the installed cost is between asphalt shingles and tile. If you consider the value of the energy production, they may be cheaper than asphalt. I didn't see any mention of cost for inverters for grid tie, which isn't cheap.



Keep in mind, that cost is assuming only 35% of the tiles are solar tiles. Not the whole roof. It also doesn't facotr in any incentives, which would bring the cost down a bit.

Consumer reports did the math and found that a 3,000sq. ft. solar roof would cost $73,500 compared to a asphalt roof at $20,000. Plus a ton of assumptions,


> So how could a $73,500 roof be considered cost-competitive with a $20,000 asphalt roof? To compensate for the proposed added value of the “free” electricity from Tesla’s roof, we added in $2,000 a year, over the lifespan of the roof. That’s a typical electric bill in states where solar is big, like California, Texas, and North Carolina.
> 
> Tesla says the life expectancy of its tiles will be 30 years. So that adds $60,000 to the value of the roof. (Our rough estimate assumes our hypothetical Solar Roof homes generate exactly as much electricity as they use.)


http://www.consumerreports.org/roofing/heres-how-much-teslas-new-solar-roof-shingles-could-cost/

Add in one or more Powerwalls (battery/inverter combo by Tesla) at $6,500 each and it's not as cheap as they make it seem. They factor in electricity savings, which is a good thing to consider, but Joe Blow with a house in almost complete shade (like mine) won't generate that much electrcity.

Add in additional labor costs (because, as the article points out "roofers aren't electricians") and that's an expensive roof front loaded with 30 years of electrical costs.


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## Clem72

It's definitely not for everyone. I certainly wouldn't take the battery upsell.  

That CR report is from BEFORE Tesla released any pricing information, and that figure they give is what they ESTIMTE it would have to be to be competitive.  The article I listed references ACTUAL pricing, which appears to be much less than the CR estimates.

And the installation costs includes their "certified" installers. You buy their product, they install it.

So while it's probably not the best idea for SoMD, if you live in Sunny SoCal where tile roofing is prevalent and shade trees overhanging your roof are not, this is looking to be an affordable alternative.


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## Chris0nllyn

Clem72 said:


> It's definitely not for everyone. I certainly wouldn't take the battery upsell.
> 
> That CR report is from BEFORE Tesla released any pricing information, and that figure they give is what they ESTIMTE it would have to be to be competitive.  The article I listed references ACTUAL pricing, which appears to be much less than the CR estimates.
> 
> And the installation costs includes their "certified" installers. You buy their product, they install it.
> 
> So while it's probably not the best idea for SoMD, if you live in Sunny SoCal where tile roofing is prevalent and shade trees overhanging your roof are not, this is looking to be an affordable alternative.



No doubt. If I lived somewhere with full sun all the time, I'd think about it. They certainly look better than traditional solar arrays on roofs.

Elon Musk is doing amazing things. The guy's a genius, but solar just isn't in the cards for me, and given the relatively cheap electricity we pay for, solar would need to come way down in price before it's feasible. It won't take long though.


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## GURPS

Chris0nllyn said:


> Add in one or more Powerwalls (battery/inverter combo by Tesla) at $6,500 each and it's not as cheap as they make it seem.





you can build your own


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## Clem72

GURPS said:


> you can build your own



I follow a couple of guys on youtube that do just that. There's an aussie that has like 50kw of packs he built.  But even if you can source the cells for free (from laptop batteries or some industrial application), and even if you treat it like a hobby and value your time completely for free, you still end up spending damn near as much as just buying one.  Unfortunately any time you use more than two lithium cells together you need to add expensive charge leveling, control, and heat monitoring hardware.


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## Chris0nllyn

GURPS said:


> you can build your own



Doesn't mean I _want_ to.


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## GURPS

Chris0nllyn said:


> Doesn't mean I _want_ to.





well yeah ....


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## BadGirl

Our second "$0.00" electric bill.  We have a credit!  

Before solar, our monthly bill for this timeframe would be in the $275-$300 range.


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## itsbob

Clem72 said:


> So someone mentioned their heat pump with electric backup can run them 500/mo. in the winter. Is this normal? I currently have an older heat pump with natural gas backup and my combined gas/electric bill is usually under 200 even in the worst winter.
> 
> What is the HSPF rating of your system? How warm did you keep it in the winter?



There's a few reasons your Emergency Heat can come on:  temps below 25 - 30, an increase in heat needed more than 2 degrees (why heat pumps should be set and left alone, turning them on and off turns on E.Heat while trying to recover), or an unknown (until you get your next electric bill) failure of the Compressor/ Heat Pump itself.

Exceptionally cold months, turning your Heat Pump down while you're not home or at night for it to recover when you get home or wake up.. can drive your electric bill up a LOT,.. an unknown system failure where your system is running all month on E. Heat can triple your bill.


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## black dog

Use new lightbulbs, a coal stove and a compact fridge and bank the 30 grand. 
View attachment 118501


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## Gilligan

black dog said:


> That would make me really nervous with a home that size.
> I'd have to at least have a pellet somewhere in the home.
> Plans to have, say a 30,000 Genny ?



Seeing as how our wood stove chimney (was fractured by the earthquake of 2011..but we didn't know it) took out the last house, the missus is understandably reluctant to have any kind of heat with "fire" in it in the new one.


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## black dog

Gilligan said:


> Seeing as how our wood stove chimney (was fractured by the earthquake of 2011..but we didn't know it) took out the last house, the missus is understandably reluctant to have any kind of heat with "fire" in it in the new one.



That's understandable, I can't imagine having a fire..


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## Gilligan

black dog said:


> That's understandable, I can't imagine having a fire..






yeah..250 years of family history and heirlooms..gone.


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## itsbob

Solar production for the day.. trying to smooth the downward side of the curve to up production a little more.

No idea who that woman is peeking into my phone..

We usually peek touching 12kWh but the pollen is knocking us down some.. need to go clean the panels.


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## StmarysCity79

Any recent experiences in Calvert County and St Mary's?   Thinking it might be time to pull the trigger with the Inflation Reduction Act tax incentives.


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## itsbob

StmarysCity79 said:


> Any recent experiences in Calvert County and St Mary's?   Thinking it might be time to pull the trigger with the Inflation Reduction Act tax incentives.


I think I replied to your other thread.. We currently have solar, and are adding more panels.  We've had it on the house for almost 8 years (I think).  Cost is about the same per panel, BUT now the panels produce a lot more energy per panel.. I think the panels on the house are 270 watt, the same size (dimensionally) panels on the garage are 380 or 400 watt.


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