# Will be taking concealed carry class Oct. 5th.



## desertrat

Then I need a weapon that will work for me. Not sure why, just because I guess.


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## Larry Gude

My suggestion; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5

Just wear baggy cloths...


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> My suggestion; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5
> 
> Just wear baggy cloths...



Holy crap Larry!


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Holy crap Larry!



Look, you never know when 7 or 8 mountain lions are gonna show up at the same time....


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## desertrat

Thinking about this, http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/6-0219007, but the built in laser sight would be nice on this, http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-G10048. Even though only a .380.


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> Look, you never know when 7 or 8 mountain lions are gonna show up at the same time....



That's where open carry is nice. Problem is most places I go=no guns allowed. Nat Parks, Some BLM lands.  Nation Forrest it's ok.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> My suggestion; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5
> 
> Just wear baggy cloths...



A great choice.


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## Gilligan

desertrat said:


> Thinking about this, http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/6-0219007, but the built in laser sight would be nice on this, http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-G10048. Even though only a .380.



Speaking from my own experience, make sure you try that out first. I found long ago that the sub-compacts are not my bag..don't fit my hand well and I can't hit the broad side of a barn. They make some really nice CC holsters and belt clips these days that do a great job of making the larger frames still comfy to carry concealed. Especially true for single-stackers like the 1911.  Or, my M57 (only a .30 but a powerful .30..) is a single-stack and remarkably thin, yet has a nice sized frame that I can control.


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## desertrat

Gilligan said:


> A great choice.



Guy at Top Shot, where I am taking the class showed me a short barrel, pump action shot gun with double feed tubes the other day. Now that would be awesome.


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## desertrat

Gilligan said:


> Speaking from my own experience, make sure you try that out first. I found long ago that the sub-compacts are not my bag..don't fit my hand well and I can't hit the broad side of a barn. They make some really nice CC holsters and belt clips these days that do a great job of making the larger frames still comfy to carry concealed. Especially true for single-stackers like the 1911.  Or, my M57 (only a .30 but a powerful .30..) is a single-stack and remarkably thin, yet has a nice sized frame that I can control.



They will let me try out any weapon they have. I really don't like .45s. Too much time to regain target.


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## Gilligan

desertrat said:


> They will let me try out any weapon they have. I really don't like .45s. Too much time to regain target.



That is one thing I like about the M57 (it's basically a knockoff of the 1903 Colt)..thin, light and very limited recoil. Similar to a .380 in that respect.

Don't get me wrong..it pains me that there is such a variety of great sub-compacts out there. The missus has a Kimber CDP II or whatever...beautiful handgun and works for her.  I simply can't shoot them well...and have had plenty of chances to prove that to myself over the years. 

Just remember Joe's advice...


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## desertrat

Is that the .45? . I kinda got distracted.


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## desertrat

Only thing I did not like about those and my buddies .44 mag was that recoil. But then that was shooting a few rounds.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> They will let me try out any weapon they have. I really don't like .45s. Too much time to regain target.



What's the most likely purpose? In my view, a conceal piece, what is most important is that you can get the thing out and present it. After that, were you to actually need to fire it, we can argue all day about calibers, barrel length, etc. but, first and foremost, you gotta be able to get a hand on it and get it out. 

Ideally, they will let you try holsters, too. If so, figure out where you want it to be and look at a titanium spur-less (no hammer) .357.  They might be the smoothest thing I've tried from conceal in terms of snagging, light weight and a damn good punch if you gotta use it, man or beast. Simple operation. Downside is no safety. Upside is double action so, it's a deliberate thing. 

I'm still thinking the MP5 and a parka. I mean, so it's a bit much in summer...you'll get used to it...


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Only thing I did not like about those and my buddies .44 mag was that recoil. But then that was shooting a few rounds.



Screw .44's.


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## Gilligan

Holsters...these guys have got it going on.

http://aliengearholsters.com/home


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Guy at Top Shot, where I am taking the class showed me a short barrel, pump action shot gun with double feed tubes the other day. Now that would be awesome.



This stupid ass thing?

https://www.google.com/search?q=kel...g.net%2Fthe-new-kel-tec-ksg-stay-away;500;350

Used one. Hated it. Just one more solution in search of a problem. Every one I know, the thing had to go back to the shop almost right away and I can't remember what it was...


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> I'm still thinking the MP5 and a parka..



There are some nice holsters out there for that too.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> There are some nice holsters out there for that too.



They got an IWB for this?


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> They got an IWB for this?
> 
> 
> View attachment 104666



Not that I've seen, no.  The one he's sporting is typical, i'nt it?...and so that's there's where the parka or oil skins come in to play for concealment, right?.  You end up looking like Clint Eastwood  in Pale Rider.,,,but hey, that's a plus.

Here's a nice compact rig..belt supported, leg straps, extra mag pouch. Best thing is..the entire rig weighs in right at 10 pounds...light as a feather.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> This stupid ass thing?
> 
> 
> Used one. Hated it. Just one more solution in search of a problem. Every one I know, the thing had to go back to the shop almost right away and I can't remember what it was...



Buddy of mine went full in to the Saiga VEPR thing (see one in my Joe Biden meme). He has one all tricked out with all the "evil features" money can buy. But boy does that thing blow when it comes to reliability.  I gave half a thought to buying one before the "big ban" but he talked me out of it.


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## Gilligan

This guy might still have some of the concealment specialty items that he sells....

http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> Buddy of mine went full in to the Saiga VEPR thing (see one in my Joe Biden meme). He has one all tricked out with all the "evil features" money can buy. But boy does that thing blow when it comes to reliability.  I gave half a thought to buying one before the "big ban" but he talked me out of it.



Ain't a heck of a lot of good if it goes 'click' when it is supposed to go bang. Now, take that 'reliability' and then go actually train with the thing, stress drills, etc. The "WTF???" factor goes to 11


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> This guy might still have some of the concealment specialty items that he sells....
> 
> http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> . Now, take that 'reliability' and then go actually train with the thing, stress drills, etc. The "WTF???" factor goes to 11



That.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> That.



I used to think my .45 Springer would be my main go to but, one full hard day with Z7 http://www.z7tactical.com  misfire drills, off hand, it got me 'killed' several times. I learned to keep working it no matter what but, I don't really wanna have to be working it. I want it to go BANG. Month later, went back with my Taurus 92 which isn't near as accurate, doesn't fit my hand as well, is no fun conceal, and it was, as always, flawless. 

That's why DR oughta look at the hammerless smith revolver. #### up Factor of maybe 1.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> This guy might still have some of the concealment specialty items that he sells....
> 
> http://dontevenreply.com/view.php?post=84



"At first glance, this looks like a normal party cup. However, if you look close enough, you will see that it is really a fully automatic Glock 18C. You will be able to pour your enemies a nice warm cup of lead with this fine purchase. Asking $900 for the gun/cup combo." 




And here at first glance, I thought it was an innovative party holster...


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> I used to think my .45 Springer would be my main go to but, o.



I've taken similar courses, once with my .45 Springfield, and once with a standard issue Beretta 9. I had zero actual malfunctions with either one (then or since)...and really didn't experience much of a difference between the two with the simulated ones. But, for me, that full-frame Springfield 1911 is just plain accurate..far more so than most anything else I've ever shot, long-barrel revolvers excepted.  I just have to like the gun that requires, for me,  the least amount of practice for the highest degree of accuracy.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> I've taken similar courses, once with my .45 Springfield, and once with a standard issue Beretta 9. I had zero actual malfunctions with either one (then or since)...and really didn't experience much of a difference between the two with the simulated ones. But, for me, that full-frame Springfield 1911 is just plain accurate..far more so than most anything else I've ever shot, long-barrel revolvers excepted.  I just have to like the gun that requires, for me,  the least amount of practice for the highest degree of accuracy.



I'm jealous. 

You wanna have some fun put a spent casing in a mag, like 3rd or whatever, and give it to a buddy and just as soon as that thing stove pipes start screaming "Contact!!!! CONTACT!!!"  ####ing pain in the ASS to clear.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> I'm jealous.
> 
> You wanna have some fun put a spent casing in a mag, like 3rd or whatever, and give it to a buddy and just as soon as that thing stove pipes start screaming "Contact!!!! CONTACT!!!"  ####ing pain in the ASS to clear.



LOL..no thanks.   I've had enough fun trying to extract telescoped 7.62x54R jams. Happens with positive flange ammo sometimes. Where the casing ruptures radially and the front "half" the casing stays put whilst the rear "half" is ejected....then the next round is rammed in. Spent the better part of an hour clearing one of those...thankful that the targets we were shooting at were wholly incapable of shooting back.


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> I used to think my .45 Springer would be my main go to but, one full hard day with Z7 http://www.z7tactical.com  misfire drills, off hand, it got me 'killed' several times. I learned to keep working it no matter what but, I don't really wanna have to be working it. I want it to go BANG. Month later, went back with my Taurus 92 which isn't near as accurate, doesn't fit my hand as well, is no fun conceal, and it was, as always, flawless.
> 
> That's why DR oughta look at the hammerless smith revolver. #### up Factor of maybe 1.



I believe I will go with this one.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-SW-163073


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## Gilligan

desertrat said:


> I believe I will go with this one.
> http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-SW-163073



My missus had one of those. She liked it. I only fired it once - maybe 10 rounds total - so never got a chance to form my own opinion.  Nice thing about that gun is you can save money and wrist abuse by shooting .38 Special through it.


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## desertrat

Gilligan said:


> My missus had one of those. She liked it. I only fired it once - maybe 10 rounds total - so never got a chance to form my own opinion.  Nice thing about that gun is you can save money and wrist abuse by shooting .38 Special through it.



Yep. Seem hard to come by here though. They will need to order it for me. Guy says they go fast and he only gets one in per week.


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## Gilligan

desertrat said:


> Yep. Seem hard to come by here though. They will need to order it for me. Guy says they go fast and he only gets one in per week.



I can believe that. The one my gal had didn't have the laser grip nor the matte finish...those details probably make the one you want a real popular item.

But heck, come to think on it...the Kimber she got to replace the S&W was hard to get too. Took about 2 months to get the model she wanted...production was lagging that far behind.


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## desertrat

Gilligan said:


> I can believe that. The one my gal had didn't have the laser grip nor the matte finish...those details probably make the one you want a real popular item.
> 
> But heck, come to think on it...the Kimber she got to replace the S&W was hard to get too. Took about 2 months to get the model she wanted...production was lagging that far behind.



Yeah, I could always add the laser grip assuming I could get one without it. I drool over Kimbers. The .45 especially.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Yeah, I could always add the laser grip assuming I could get one without it. I drool over Kimbers. The .45 especially.



Kimbers rep slid for awhile there. I don't know anyone who has bought one in the last several years. Same old story; took off, great out of the box guns, demand picks up, quality drops to meet demand. Maybe they've settled down to a nice steady thing? Check that. My cousin has one. Probably a year or so old. Solid. Stream of consciousness typing...

You need to shoot them, though because they come pretty tight. That's where the accuracy comes from and they simple need to be shot to loosen up a bit. There is also the limp wrist thing. And they are solid, heavy things. That's why I would not get one for conceal carry;

1. weight
2. Not, in my view, the 'go bang every time' choice in my book. Limp wristing and 'tightness'. 

Again, that's why I like the spur-less titanium revolver; bang, every time. It's gonna kick with that short a barrel but, it ain't a target gun so, you shoot it enough to trust it.


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> Kimbers rep slid for awhile there. I don't know anyone who has bought one in the last several years. Same old story; took off, great out of the box guns, demand picks up, quality drops to meet demand. Maybe they've settled down to a nice steady thing? Check that. My cousin has one. Probably a year or so old. Solid. Stream of consciousness typing...
> 
> You need to shoot them, though because they come pretty tight. That's where the accuracy comes from and they simple need to be shot to loosen up a bit. There is also the limp wrist thing. And they are solid, heavy things. That's why I would not get one for conceal carry;
> 
> 1. weight
> 2. Not, in my view, the 'go bang every time' choice in my book. Limp wristing and 'tightness'.
> 
> Again, that's why I like the spur-less titanium revolver; bang, every time. It's gonna kick with that short a barrel but, it ain't a target gun so, you shoot it enough to trust it.



Nope would just like one to shoot for fun.


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## Larry Gude

And screw a laser. It's a conceal carry piece. Less is more.  You think you're gonna actually need to shoot something more than 20 feet away, I'm still digging on the MP5!!!!


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> I'm still digging on the MP5!!!!



We need to go shootin' someday.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> We need to go shootin' someday.



Yup.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> We need to go shootin' someday.



You ever shoot a UMP in .45??? THAT is fun! Because of the lower FPS, it almost feels like throwing big mud clods down range, like kids. Heavy, not harsh, just slinging it. The MP5 in 9mm is almost too light, way too easy to get carried away. Those smallish rounds, that much mass, maybe not enough 'You are shooting a GUN' feel???   Too effortless.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> You ever shoot a UMP in .45??? .



Nope. A buddy has a Thompson he's been dying for me to try out, but we never seem to have time to meet up and compare notes.   I'm rather partial to all those 7.62x25 rippers myself..precisely because the control is so easy and yet the rate of fire so high. And the smaller round means more fit in a smaller space.

That said, I've certainly seen plenty of folks shooting 9mm autos at the events. Looks about the same to me...point and rip.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> Nope. A buddy has a Thompson he's been dying for me to try out, but we never seem to have time to meet up and compare notes.   I'm rather partial to all those 7.62x25 rippers myself..precisely because the control is so easy and yet the rate of fire so high. And the smaller round means more fit in a smaller space.
> 
> That said, I've certainly seen plenty of folks shooting 9mm autos at the events. Looks about the same to me...point and rip.



Not the same feel. The Tommy, to me, has a harsher feel. I guess it's the blow back design v. the gas piston??? The UMP, man, it just wants to get on target and stay there.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> Not the same feel. .



LOL..I would hope not. The two designs are what...70 years apart?    I've rarely had the opportunity to shoot any "modern" autos. The ranges and events we go to that include full-auto firing are largely populated with folks shooting pre-ban and sample weapons. They are easier to purchase and some are almost affordable...I say "almost". For example, one guy we shoot with semi-regularly has a beautiful M1919 Browning .30, tripod and everything. He said he paid a little over 30 grand for the whole shebang but could get over 40 for it now.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> LOL..I would hope not. The two designs are what...70 years apart?    I've rarely had the opportunity to shoot any "modern" autos. The ranges and events we go to that include full-auto firing are largely populated with folks shooting pre-ban and sample weapons. They are easier to purchase and some are almost affordable...I say "almost". For example, one guy we shoot with semi-regularly has a beautiful M1919 Browning .30, tripod and everything. He said he paid a little over 30 grand for the whole shebang but could get over 40 for it now.



Sweet!!!!   Cheaper to own it than feed it!


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## Vince

Gilligan said:


> Buddy of mine went full in to the Saiga VEPR thing (see one in my Joe Biden meme). He has one all tricked out with all the "evil features" money can buy. But boy does that thing blow when it comes to reliability.  I gave half a thought to buying one before the "big ban" but he talked me out of it.


That's what I'm getting for my next gun.  Saiga 12 ga drum fed.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> Sweet!!!!   Cheaper to own it than feed it!



He has a Barrett .50 and a converted M2 (converted to semi). Between those and the M1919, he told me that going through $2000 worth of ammo during one weekend fun shoot is not uncommon.


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## GURPS

Gilligan said:


> He has a Barrett .50 and a converted M2 (converted to semi). Between those and the M1919, he told me that going through $2000 worth of ammo during one weekend fun shoot is not uncommon.





daymn a wife is cheaper


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## desertrat

Class done. Now to wait until Tues to go apply for the permit.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Class done. Now to wait until Tues to go apply for the permit.



Do you feel qualified? Any good training? Or, was it pretty much a rubber stamp thing?


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> Do you feel qualified? Any good training? Or, was it pretty much a rubber stamp thing?



Yes. I doubt I will actually use it much though. As far as training it was mostly talking about where you can carry, when you should draw and what to do before and after. Demonstrating how to draw, etc.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Yes. I doubt I will actually use it much though. As far as training it was mostly talking about where you can carry, when you should draw and what to do before and after. Demonstrating how to draw, etc.



No stress shooting? No scenarios played out?


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> No stress shooting? No scenarios played out?



Nope they have other classes for that.


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## desertrat

Instructor had someone try to break into his house. Guys new what he did because the logos , etc. are all over his truck. This once though he parked in the garage so they though he wasn't home and came to steal some guns. He heard the guy at the front door, grabbed a gun and threw the door open with the gun at the ready. Ordered the guy loudly to get on the ground and had his wife call 911. About this time he heard someone at the back door. So he is yelling loudly at his wife that he had the guy on the ground with a gun on him. Three other guys heard this and fled. Turned out to all be related. Sons and one cousin. Said it was very stressful and he had screwed up. If the guy had suddenly lunged at him and he shot him he may have been in trouble since he wasn't actually in the house.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Nope they have other classes for that.



Go take 'em. All you can get, just like motorcycle skills classes.


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> Go take 'em. All you can get, just like motorcycle skills classes.



x10. I learned far more than I expected to, the first one I took, and had a much more open minded approach to the training the second time.  Sure learned a lot about how little I actually knew....


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Instructor had someone try to break into his house. Guys new what he did because the logos , etc. are all over his truck. This once though he parked in the garage so they though he wasn't home and came to steal some guns. He heard the guy at the front door, grabbed a gun and threw the door open with the gun at the ready. Ordered the guy loudly to get on the ground and had his wife call 911. About this time he heard someone at the back door. So he is yelling loudly at his wife that he had the guy on the ground with a gun on him. Three other guys heard this and fled. Turned out to all be related. Sons and one cousin. Said it was very stressful and he had screwed up. If the guy had suddenly lunged at him and he shot him he may have been in trouble since he wasn't actually in the house.



That's awful


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> x10. I learned far more than I expected to, the first one I took, and had a much more open minded approach to the training the second time.  Sure learned a lot about how little I actually knew....



It's bizarre, being a guy and growing up on knack and luck and bumps and bruises and then finding training....


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## Gilligan

Larry Gude said:


> It's bizarre, being a guy and growing up on knack and luck and bumps and bruises and then finding training....



Ya think?  First defensive hand gunning course I attended was a "check the box" requirement for an assignment I was qualifying/applying for. I went somewhat "grudgingly"...until about 20 minutes after the first session started. I was very focused and attentive after that...


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## desertrat

Just got a call, license is in.


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## desertrat

I went down today, stupid, I forgot county offices are closed.


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## Gilligan

desertrat said:


> I went down today, stupid, I forgot county offices are closed.



Long ride?


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> Long ride?



He has a Harley. Everything is a long ride...


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## desertrat

Gilligan said:


> Long ride?



It was a bit chilly. I drove. Not far, maybe 5 miles. Funny Larry, everything is a long ride because I am old and slow.


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## Gilligan

I had to ask. I had this mind's eye clip of you spending weeks wending your way from the snow-covered mountains back to civilization, for nothing...picture a scene from "Jeremiah Johnson"...

Oh..and just ignore the Harley hater. He's just jealous, you know...


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## desertrat

Gilligan said:


> I had to ask. I had this mind's eye clip of you spending weeks wending your way from the snow-covered mountains back to civilization, for nothing...picture a scene from "Jeremiah Johnson"...
> 
> Oh..and just ignore the Harley hater. He's just jealous, you know...



Oh hell no, I do not live in the mountains, just near them. It is 5 minutes to downtown for me. Grocery store, couple minutes. Booze store even closer. "Jeremiah Johnson" one of my favorite movies of all time Pilgrim.
30 minutes and I can be at 10,000 feet.
That bike and me are not taking that ride. Road is always messed up from rock slides. Much better rides closer.


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## Gilligan

desertrat said:


> Booze store even closer..



'nuff said.


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## Larry Gude

Gilligan said:


> I had to ask. I had this mind's eye clip of you spending weeks wending your way from the snow-covered mountains back to civilization, for nothing...picture a scene from "Jeremiah Johnson"...
> 
> Oh..and just ignore the Harley hater. He's just jealous, you know...



Jealous is not near enough word. If I can ever get a decent vacation organized, I am going to invade his home and make him take me out in the boondocks and ride dirt bikes and walk around armed and look at those mountains roar through some passes on the Strat. Wait for him at the top...that sort of thing. 

I admit it. He's my freaking hero right now.


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## Vince

Gilligan said:


> I had to ask. I had this mind's eye clip of you spending weeks wending your way from the snow-covered mountains back to civilization, for nothing...picture a scene from "Jeremiah Johnson"...
> 
> Oh..and just* ignore the Harley hater. He's just jealous*, you know...


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## Vince

desertrat said:


> Just got a call, license is in.


You decide on what you're going to carry?


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## desertrat

Larry Gude said:


> Jealous is not near enough word. If I can ever get a decent vacation organized, I am going to invade his home and make him take me out in the boondocks and ride dirt bikes and walk around armed and look at those mountains roar through some passes on the Strat. Wait for him at the top...that sort of thing.
> 
> I admit it. He's my freaking hero right now.



Anytime Larry.


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## desertrat

Vince said:


> You decide on what you're going to carry?



Not yet.


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## Larry Gude

desertrat said:


> Not yet.



Dude. 211? seriously? Time for the mountain bike!


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## Larry Gude

"Hair: no"


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## Larry Gude

Vince said:


> You decide on what you're going to carry?



Pocket gun

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/ksg/shotgun/


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## Pushrod

Larry Gude said:


> "Hair: no"



You stole my line!

Oh, and your earlier recommendation of an MP5, man I wish I could afford one! I've been stamp collecting lately, mostly suppressors. Up to six now.


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## Larry Gude

Pushrod said:


> Oh, and your earlier recommendation of an MP5, man I wish I could afford one! I've been stamp collecting lately, mostly suppressors. Up to six now.



Robinson Arms used to make an HK UMP style sub. I can't even find one on the web. Man! What a blaster!  My point is that finding something like an MP5 is .45, that's one heck of a gun. 
MP5's, in my view, and I may have already said this, are too light. It is so sturdy and fits so well when you present it and at 9mm, you hardly feel like you're shooting a real gun. The RoArms UMP I got to fire was, to me, a perfect balance of that sub style and the feed back and awareness of firing a real deal gun. 

I dunno. Hard to explain. That 9 size just, I dunno, it's too easy to get carried away with because of that light feel. And that means foreclosure, cash in retirement, loss of friends, alienation from society in general trying to feed the damn thing....


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## DEEKAYPEE8569

desertrat said:


> Not yet.



I'll bet you $$ to doughnuts you won't see too many of these that say 'Maryland' any time soon.


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## desertrat

DEEKAYPEE8569 said:


> I'll bet you $$ to doughnuts you won't see too many of these that say 'Maryland' any time soon.



Or ever.


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## RPMDAD

dr, what is the weather like out your way???


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## desertrat

RPMDAD said:


> dr, what is the weather like out your way???



25 right now. Been off and on cloudy. No rain for quite a while. Usually warms up to maybe 60.


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## DEEKAYPEE8569

desertrat said:


> Or ever.


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## desertrat

RPMDAD said:


> dr, what is the weather like out your way???



Read in the paper today that 2 cross country skiers died in an avalanche and 5 others injured. Not close to here though. -40 with wind chill in Denver.


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