# What does being a Christian mean to you?



## vraiblonde

In light of our recent forumite conversions, I got to thinking about what it actually means to "find Jesus".  Does it mean you now have to be nice to people, more charitable and less hostile?  Do you stop drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex?  What exactly does it mean to embrace God and accept Jesus as your savior?

I'll be honest:  a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum.  People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.  So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian.  This is not meant to start a bunch of crap, although I'm sure (like everything else) it will, but I would seriously like the Christians on here to tell me what it means to them.  Is just saying you believe in God and Jesus enough, or do you have to prove it in some way; maybe live by the teachings of Christ?  Or is God content with you simply believing in Him?

Again, this is a real question.  I understand everyone's answer will be different, and that's cool - faith isn't one size fits all.


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## mAlice

For me, it's picking up where I left off 20 years ago.  About getting right with God, learning what the scriptures are saying, and trying to live by them.

It doesn't mean I'm a different person, just that I'm walking a different path, and trying to live by standards and examples set forth in the bible.

Even the people who have been some of nastiest people of the forums, can still get it right.  But they'll have to want it.



> Is just saying you believe in God and Jesus enough, or do you have to prove it in some way; maybe live by the teachings of Christ? Or is God content with you simply believing in Him?



I don't think anyone can definitively answer that question, but I do think we have to make an effort to live by Jesus' teachings.  I don't think God would be 'content' with passivity.  But, that's just my take.


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## mAlice

Oh, I am trying to stop swearing, but at the end of the day, I don't think slipping up is going to be a deciding factor in whether I'm saved or not.

Drinking-all thinks in moderation.  No big deal one way or the other for me.  I've probably not had more than a couple of drinks in the past 2 years.  The desire to drink just...left me.  :shrug:


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## vraiblonde

mAlice said:


> Even the people who have been some of nastiest people of the forums, can still get it right.  But they'll have to want it.



And my guess is that they'll have to actually stop being so nasty and mean to other people.  Or no?  

(And I want to be clear:  That is not directed at you, mAlice, personally.  I actually have other "Christian" forum members in mind and I don't want you to think I'm trying to take some passive aggressive shot at you.)


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## b23hqb

Being a Christian is being a Christian, and that starts with being a believer IN, not just about or acknowledging the historical facts, Jesus Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection and ascension back to his rightful throne in heaven.

That means being saved by acknowledging you are a sinner, that the penalty for our sin is death, that we can do nothing through works to be saved, and that confessing verbally the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved, and therefore, a Christian. If you are not saved, born again, etc., you are just not a Christian, but a CINO (christian in name only), and that will get you nothing but an eternity of damnation.

Repent (change your ways) in your mind and heart from the world to Christ.

After that one starts their Christian walk with Jesus. We will stumble, fall, and fail at times. Jesus can never fail, and He will be there - always - with us and for us. We are paying the price for the original sin that condemned all mankind, and we have to deal with it.. If a Christian runs afoul of the laws of the land, thy must pay the societal price, but they will not lose their standing with God.

Being a Christian is following His Word, and not the ways of the world. Being a Christian is steadfastly looking forward to the minute he takes us to be with Him. Seeing that no man knows that time or place, continue to run the Christian race and fight the Christian fight until we are in His presence.

It is a good life. We miss out on nothing that the world has to offer, for the world has nothing better to offer.

Those are my words, but the origination all come straight from the Bible.


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## mAlice

vraiblonde said:


> And my guess is that they'll have to actually stop being so nasty and mean to other people.  Or no?
> 
> (And I want to be clear:  That is not directed at you, mAlice, personally.  I actually have other "Christian" forum members in mind and I don't want you to think I'm trying to take some passive aggressive shot at you.)



Yes.  They're going to need to live by Jesus' example.  

I'm not taking any of this personally.  You're giving me the opportunity to do what I'm supposed to do.  Testify!


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## vraiblonde

b23hqb said:


> We will stumble, fall, and fail at times.



How many times are Christians allowed to stumble, fall, and fail before it becomes not a simple error but the way they are and live their lives?

I know a few self-professed Christians who are fairly ####ty on a regular basis, and when called out on it they fall back on "I'm a sinner and am going to fall on occasion.  Jesus forgives me."  How many times can Christians fail before Jesus won't forgive them anymore?  Indefinitely?


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## Amused_despair

I think being a Christian is more than simply beleiving that jesus Christ is your Savior and that he is the son of God, died for our sins, and will come again.  I think one needs to follow his teachings.  I do not think Jesus would have much time for those of us who worry more about whether we our homes are losing value instead of worrying about how we can make someone else's life just a little better.  jesus was the ultimate grasshopper.  By this I mean he didn't worry about the future in regards to this world and he taught his follwoers likewise.  trust in the Lord to provide for you.  Jesus wanted us to worry about eternity, not tomorrow.  Life on Earth is short, eternity is the opposite.  I do not want to be one of those that Jesus looks to and says "I tell you I do not know you.  When I was hungry you did not give me to eat, when I was thirtsy and you gave me nothing to drink, when i was in need of clothes you gave me none."  I most certainly do not want to be judged harshly by him so I endeavor to never judge anyone.  if they want pickles on their sub at Subway that is their own life and business, I do not give it a second thought.  Same goes for any other choices others might make that have no affect on me.

  Where I fail, and I know that I do, is that I put my family before God.  I do not trust in God to provide for them but I insist on doing it myself.  I do not give all that I own to the poor but instead hold on to it so that I am able to pay for a larger house than Jesus or his disciples ever lived in, and to acquire material goods that while they make my life easier here do nothing for helping my fellow man or bringing me closer to God.  These are my failings and mine alone.  I do what i can while attempting the impossible task of being both a Christian who believes that Jesus meant everything he said and an American capitalist who believes that one works for their money and provides their own way.

  Jesus may forgive me my shortcomings and he may not.  I personally think that Jesus was referring to us when he talked about easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven.  We hold on to our material things and judge our worth by our material wealth.  It is what Americans do.  Just imagine if all of us decided to trust in God to provide for us instead of the economy. But we won't.


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## mAlice

vraiblonde said:


> How many times are Christians allowed to stumble, fall, and fail before it becomes not a simple error but the way they are and live their lives?
> 
> I know a few self-professed Christians who are fairly ####ty on a regular basis, and when called out on it they fall back on "I'm a sinner and am going to fall on occasion.  Jesus forgives me."  How many times can Christians fail before Jesus won't forgive them anymore?  Indefinitely?



Many of them are the deceivers.  They may not get it right.


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## GURPS

vraiblonde said:


> How many times are Christians allowed to stumble, fall, and fail before it becomes not a simple error but the way they are and live their lives?
> 
> I know a few self-professed Christians who are fairly ####ty on a regular basis, and when called out on it they fall back on "I'm a sinner and am going to fall on occasion.  Jesus forgives me."  How many times can Christians fail before Jesus won't forgive them anymore?  Indefinitely?




simple .... as many as it takes

what matters, is what is truly in their heart 

Is Someone truly repentant for their actions [the conviction of the Holy Spirit] 
- or just going through the motions making excuses using their faith as an excuse to rude to people 




- no you don't suddenly become 'unsaved' you are just a back slider


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## GURPS

Amused_despair said:


> Where I fail, and I know that I do, is that I put my family before God.  I do not trust in God to provide for them but I insist on doing it myself.  I do not give all that I own to the poor but instead hold on to it so that I am able to pay for a larger house than Jesus or his disciples ever lived in, and to acquire material goods that while they make my life easier here do nothing for helping my fellow man or bringing me closer to God.  These are my failings and mine alone.  I do what i can while attempting the impossible task of being both a Christian who believes that Jesus meant everything he said and an American capitalist who believes that one works for their money and provides their own way.
> 
> Jesus may forgive me my shortcomings and he may not.  I personally think that Jesus was referring to us when he talked about easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven.  We hold on to our material things and judge our worth by our material wealth.  It is what Americans do.  Just imagine if all of us decided to trust in God to provide for us instead of the economy. But we won't.






well said


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## GURPS

mAlice said:


> Many of them are the deceivers.  They may not get it right.





indeed ....


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## mAlice

GURPS said:


> simple .... as many as it takes
> 
> what matters, is what is truly in their heart
> 
> Is Someone truly repentant for their actions [the conviction of the Holy Spirit]
> - or just going through the motions making excuses using their faith as an excuse to rude to people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - no you don't suddenly become 'unsaved' you are just a back slider



I think the scriptures that support this are a cop out, and an easy way to scripturally excuse their behavior.  The people vrai is talking about are so often mean and nasty, that they would be asking forgiveness 24/7.  They don't have a kind bone in their body, they can't speak to anyone, ever, in a civil tone.  These people are either using the scriptures to deceive, or they are deceiving themselves into believing that they're behavior is okay.


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## Merlin99

vraiblonde said:


> In light of our recent forumite conversions, I got to thinking about what it actually means to "find Jesus".  Does it mean you now have to be nice to people, more charitable and less hostile?  Do you stop drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex?  What exactly does it mean to embrace God and accept Jesus as your savior?
> 
> I'll be honest:  a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum.  People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.  So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian.  This is not meant to start a bunch of crap, although I'm sure (like everything else) it will, but I would seriously like the Christians on here to tell me what it means to them.  Is just saying you believe in God and Jesus enough, or do you have to prove it in some way; maybe live by the teachings of Christ?  Or is God content with you simply believing in Him?
> 
> Again, this is a real question.  I understand everyone's answer will be different, and that's cool - faith isn't one size fits all.



My personal opinion is that being Christian means that you believe in the power of Christ, and have taken steps to achieve the afterlife. It does not mean that you are a good person, or are special in any way because the Hindus and Muslims have got a bigger voting block and get to be the special ones. Most of them seem happier because they belong to something larger than themselves, but some of the are distinctly uncomfortable to be around.


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## DQ2B

vraiblonde said:


> In light of our recent forumite conversions, I got to thinking about what it actually means to "find Jesus".  Does it mean you now have to be nice to people, more charitable and less hostile?  Do you stop drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex?  What exactly does it mean to embrace God and accept Jesus as your savior?



I don't have the faintest idea what it means to "find Jesus" but those things you mention above to me seem to be what it means to be human, a good person in general. Not anything to do with Jesus.


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## happyazz

mAlice said:


> Yes.  They're going to need to live by Jesus' example.
> 
> I'm not taking any of this personally.  You're giving me the opportunity to do what I'm supposed to do.  Testify!



What is it YOU mean by TESTIFY??? Alienating people by preaching and inserting religious phrases in all of your verbal exchanges?
Aren't you the one that used to have phrase in your signature line "I got thrown out of Boarders Books for moving all the Bibles to the fiction section"??


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## mAlice

happyazz said:


> What is it YOU mean by TESTIFY??? Alienating people by preaching and inserting religious phrases in all of your verbal exchanges?
> Aren't you the one that used to have phrase in your signature line "I got thrown out of Boarders Books for moving all the Bibles to the fiction section"??



There's always somebody that wants to hijack a thread to start a fight.  Yes, it was me.  Yes, it was a joke.  Do you really think I did that?


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## MMDad

Merlin99 said:


> My personal opinion is that being Christian means that you believe in the power of Christ, and have taken steps to achieve the afterlife. It does not mean that you are a good person, or are special in any way because the Hindus and Muslims have got a bigger voting block and get to be the special ones. Most of them seem happier because they belong to something larger than themselves, but some of the are distinctly uncomfortable to be around.



Then why did you make a judgemental statement about being a good Christian? Either there is or is not a "Christian" way to act. I've found that most who proclaim just how "Christian " they are hypocrites. And those who proclaim that others do not act "Christian" are just trying to use it as a hammer to attack.


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## vraiblonde

MMDad said:


> Then why did you make a judgemental statement about being a good Christian? Either there is or is not a "Christian" way to act. I've found that most who proclaim just how "Christian " they are hypocrites. And those who proclaim that others do not act "Christian" are just trying to use it as a hammer to attack.



So what is your idea of being a Christian?  Doing God's work, living according to the teachings of Jesus, and like that?  Or something else?


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## happyazz

mAlice said:


> There's always somebody that wants to hijack a thread to start a fight.  Yes, it was me.  Yes, it was a joke.  Do you really think I did that?



I am NOT hijacking this thread. I am just asking questions. NO I don't think you really did that, however your JOKE speaks volumes about you.


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## mAlice

happyazz said:


> I am NOT hijacking this thread. I am just asking questions. NO I don't think you really did that, however your JOKE speaks volumes about you.



Okay.  Have a nice day


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## MMDad

vraiblonde said:


> So what is your idea of being a Christian?  Doing God's work, living according to the teachings of Jesus, and like that?  Or something else?



Did you ever see me claim that I was some sort of good Christian? Have you ever seen me say that I proscribe to what the fundies spew? Or the organized religions?

To answer your question, I do not have an opinion of that. Belief is between a person and God, and I am the last person to make judgements about how well they live up to the standard.


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## Pete

mAlice said:


> There's always somebody that wants to hijack a thread to start a fight.  Yes, it was me.  Yes, it was a joke.  Do you really think I did that?



Whoa Nelly, you spent years as the forum militant athiest. The one hijacking threads and starting fights.  You didn't expect to proclaim your salvation and not have a few twitchy eyeballs?  Really?


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## mAlice

Pete said:


> Whoa Nelly, you spent years as the forum militant athiest. The one hijacking threads and starting fights.  You didn't expect to proclaim your salvation and not have a few twitchy eyeballs?  Really?



No.  I wouldn't go so far as to say I was a militant atheist.  You may want to go back and read some of my threads.  May I have done something that offend someone in the past?  Without a doubt.  Militant?  Um, no.
Have a nice day


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## Pete

mAlice said:


> No.  I wouldn't go so far as to say I was a militant atheist.  You may want to go back and read some of my threads.  May I have done something that offend someone in the past?  Without a doubt.  Militant?  Um, no.
> Have a nice day



You have a nice day


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## mAlice

Pete said:


> You have a nice day



Thank you.  I will.


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## GURPS

MMDad said:


> I've found that most who proclaim just how "Christian " they are hypocrites.
> 
> And those who proclaim that others do not act "Christian" are just trying to use it as a hammer to attack.


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## b23hqb

vraiblonde said:


> How many times are Christians allowed to stumble, fall, and fail before it becomes not a simple error but the way they are and live their lives?
> 
> I know a few self-professed Christians who are fairly ####ty on a regular basis, and when called out on it they fall back on "I'm a sinner and am going to fall on occasion.  Jesus forgives me."  How many times can Christians fail before Jesus won't forgive them anymore?  Indefinitely?



If a particular stumble continues to arise, then that person has to question themselves, and re-examine their profession to be a believer. If they continue to fall, especially in view of others, like yourself or me, we have to question their profession in Christ as well. It is a bad testimony of Christianity to non-believers, especially, but to believers as well.

If their falling is a physical or mental failing, then treatment is required, as with anyone else. If it is a moral failing, like adultery, pedophilia, pornography, etc., that is in their soul, and God will separate the good seed from the tares.

There is a difference between backsliding into a particular lifestyle, then recovering, and continually staying in a lifestyle. 

We are to judge our brothers and sisters based on their testimony. If they continue to fall, I would have to conclude they have not repented, and therefore not saved. My conclusion could very well be not what God will conclude, that is a given.

We love our brothers and sisters in Christ, but if they show no remorse or repentance from their "pet" sin(s), we have no choice but to show them the door and to not allow them to practice it within our local body of believers.


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## Pete

mAlice said:


> Thank you.  I will.



Excellent


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## Larry Gude

b23hqb said:


> If a particular stumble continues to arise, then that person has to question themselves, and re-examine their profession to be a believer. If they continue to fall, especially in view of others, like yourself or me, we have to question their profession in Christ as well. It is a bad testimony of Christianity to non-believers, especially, but to believers as well.
> 
> If their falling is a physical or mental failing, then treatment is required, as with anyone else. If it is a moral failing, like adultery, pedophilia, pornography, etc., that is in their soul, and God will separate the good seed from the tares.
> 
> There is a difference between backsliding into a particular lifestyle, then recovering, and continually staying in a lifestyle.
> 
> We are to judge our brothers and sisters based on their testimony. If they continue to fall, I would have to conclude they have not repented, and therefore not saved. My conclusion could very well be not what God will conclude, that is a given.
> 
> We love our brothers and sisters in Christ, but if they show no remorse or repentance from their "pet" sin(s), we have no choice but to show them the door and to not allow them to practice it within our local body of believers.



That seems to be the common theme; some pet sins are more equal than others.


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## vraiblonde

Larry Gude said:


> That seems to be the common theme; some pet sins are more equal than others.



I kind of get what he's saying, even though I do it on my own and don't have God telling me what to do.

It's like how I avoid people who are ####ty to others and go out of their way to make someone feel bad and be hostile, when there was no reason on earth for them to do so other than that they're an ahole.  I don't consider gays among my personal "sins"; aholes, however, are intolerable.  We all pick and choose.


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## b23hqb

Larry Gude said:


> That seems to be the common theme; some pet sins are more equal than others.



Good point. Everybody, and I mean everybody, has their personal little (or large) personal vice(s). The question each has to deal with is when it does pop up, what does one do with it? If you act on it, not good for the soul. If you struggle with it, but manage to put it away, I believe God understands those struggles of human frailty and will deal personally with the individual in His way. Our job is to understand what we do, and that God is always there and acutely aware of where we are.


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## Pete

vraiblonde said:


> I kind of get what he's saying, even though I do it on my own and don't have God telling me what to do.
> 
> It's like how I avoid people who are ####ty to others and go out of their way to make someone feel bad and be hostile, when there was no reason on earth for them to do so other than that they're an ahole.  I don't consider gays among my personal "sins"; aholes, however, are intolerable.  We all pick and choose.



There is a broad line between someone who has a weakness and someone who is mean spirited for pure sport.


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## Larry Gude

b23hqb said:


> Good point. Everybody, and I mean everybody, has their personal little (or large) personal vice(s). The question each has to deal with is when it does pop up, what does one do with it? If you act on it, not good for the soul. If you struggle with it, but manage to put it away, I believe God understands those struggles of human frailty and will deal personally with the individual in His way. Our job is to understand what we do, and that God is always there and acutely aware of where we are.



But, the god I was taught, if someone is putting out the effort to try and be part of your community of faith and y'all kick them out because you've judge them insincere enough, by your standards, that, to me is awful, passing that sort of judgment as to what is in their heart. So what if they don't meet your personal standard? That they are coming, reaching out, seeking a place, regardless of your, or my, judgment, Jesus would, without question, welcome them time and time and time again, teaching the lessons by example so that, maybe, they do come to what you would then judge proper. BUT, again, that is expressly not your place. God alone knows what is in their hearts and He, alone can see how they are doing, the struggles they face, their demons. The LAST thing he'd want his children to do is cast them out. That's the faith I was taught. 

I think that, more than anything else, is harmful to the teachings and to the public perception and support of the faith.


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## Larry Gude

Pete said:


> There is a broad line between someone who has a weakness and someone who is mean spirited for pure sport.



Ah, but there it is, again, the judgment. That may well BE their weakness. One of that persons struggles could easily be with being mean spirited at times, especially towards those they judge to be insincere or not sincere enough.


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## b23hqb

Larry Gude said:


> But, the god I was taught, if someone is putting out the effort to try and be part of your community of faith and y'all kick them out because you've judge them insincere enough, by your standards, that, to me is awful, passing that sort of judgment as to what is in their heart. So what if they don't meet your personal standard? That they are coming, reaching out, seeking a place, regardless of your, or my, judgment, Jesus would, without question, welcome them time and time and time again, teaching the lessons by example so that, maybe, they do come to what you would then judge proper. BUT, again, that is expressly not your place. God alone knows what is in their hearts and He, alone can see how they are doing, the struggles they face, their demons. The LAST thing he'd want his children to do is cast them out. That's the faith I was taught.
> 
> I think that, more than anything else, is harmful to the teachings and to the public perception and support of the faith.



I have to generally disagree with you there. God will be the final judge, jury, and executioner. We are taught church discipline in the NT. Many references about those that continue to live in sin must be expelled in order to maintain church harmony and biblical principles. You cannot allow it to fester, or else there will not be a biblical church, just the world. The world takes care of those that transgress, doesn't it? The church must do the same.

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Church-Discipline

http://www.xenos.org/classes/leadership/discip.html

This site really goes into depth, and I think is the best, both OT and NT:

www.xenos.org/classes/leadership/discip.html

Church discipline is based on the Bible, done in caring and love for the individual , with the intent the goal of constructive, remedial discipline.

The church is no different than any other corporate effort - you need rules to be adhered to, or you fail to function.

In the church, we are instructed to discipline based on the Word of God. If you want to call that being judgmental, so be it.


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## vraiblonde

Larry Gude said:


> The LAST thing he'd want his children to do is cast them out. That's the faith I was taught.



That's your God.  Other people have different Gods.


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## Larry Gude

vraiblonde said:


> That's your God.  Other people have different Gods.



That can't be.


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## Larry Gude

b23hqb said:


> If you want to call that being judgmental, so be it.



I was using your words from your post. And my only interest here is in observing what I consider to be self inflicted harm to the faith by those who tend to claim to be the most devout.


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## Christy

vraiblonde said:


> So what is your idea of being a Christian?  Doing God's work, living according to the teachings of Jesus, and like that?  Or something else?



My idea of being a Christian is getting up everyday and trying to be a better person.  For me, it's not about memorizing a bunch of scripture or going to church every Sunday.  I can't remember the last time I was in a church.  It's all in your deeds and your actions.  I know it is cliche', but the whole "What Would Jesus Do" is good to think upon in any given situation.  When there is someone who is having a hard time in their life, do you ignore them? Pile on to their miseries?  Or do you help?  I always try to help in some form or another.  I'm not always successful, but I try.  The same goes for people who have done horrible things to me.  I try really hard to forgive that (which does not mean you forget it or dismiss the horrible deed) and I will even help them if they are in need.  I try and make the world a little bit better by small acts of kindness and decency.

This does not mean that I am perfect and it is a daily struggle to be compassionate and try and find some good in everyone, because most humans are just horrible, myself included some days.


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## mAlice

Christy said:


> This does not mean that I am perfect and it is a daily struggle to be compassionate and try and find some good in everyone, because most humans are just horrible, myself included some days.


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## Larry Gude

Christy said:


> ...because most humans are just horrible, myself included some days.




Totally disagree. Most people get along just fine and are not horrible, day in and day out.


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## mAlice

Larry Gude said:


> Totally disagree. Most people get along just fine and are not horrible, day in and day out.



Getting along with someone doesn't always mean that they are not horrible.  It could just mean that someone is being civil.


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## Larry Gude

mAlice said:


> Getting along with someone doesn't always mean that they are not horrible.  It could just mean that someone is being civil.



I suppose we'd need to define horrible. I can't think of one person in my life that I would describe as 'horrible'.


Of course, that leaves the very real possibility that everyone I know knows at least one person they'd describe as horrible...


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## mAlice

Larry Gude said:


> I suppose we'd need to define horrible. I can't think of one person in my life that I would describe as 'horrible'.
> 
> 
> Of course, that leaves the very real possibility that everyone I know knows at least one person they'd describe as horrible...



Well, let's look at the definition.  
2
:  extremely bad or unpleasant


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## Merlin99

MMDad said:


> Then why did you make a judgemental statement about being a good Christian? Either there is or is not a "Christian" way to act. I've found that most who proclaim just how "Christian " they are hypocrites. And those who proclaim that others do not act "Christian" are just trying to use it as a hammer to attack.



Because I like to think Christians are better than that, even though they generally let me down.


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## Larry Gude

mAlice said:


> Well, let's look at the definition.
> 2
> :  extremely bad or unpleasant



Ain't none of them in my day to day life.


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## kwillia

DQ2B said:


> I don't have the faintest idea what it means to "find Jesus" but those things you mention above to me seem to be what it means to be human, a good person in general. Not anything to do with Jesus.


 Okay, I haven't read the posts beyond this one but I'm stopping here to agree. This sums it up for me too.  I do not directly associate morality with religion. Some of the most immoral acting people I know go to church each week and some of the nicest moral people I know do not practice any religion.


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## mAlice

Larry Gude said:


> Ain't none of them in my day to day life.



Currently, I don't have any in my day to day life, but not so long ago, I did.  And I still encounter them almost daily.  If they're not being horrible to me, they're being horrible to someone else.  If I lived in Tiny Town, like you, I probably wouldn't encounter them that often, either.


----------



## mAlice

kwillia said:


> Okay, I haven't read the posts beyond this one but I'm stopping here to agree. This sums it up for me too.  I do not directly associate moraility with religion. Some of the most immoral acting people I know go to church each week and some of the nicest moral people I know do not practice any religion.



I completely agree with this sentiment.


----------



## Larry Gude

mAlice said:


> Currently, I don't have any in my day to day life, but not so long ago, I did.  And I still encounter them almost daily.  If they're not being horrible to me, they're being horrible to someone else.  If I lived in Tiny Town, like you, I probably wouldn't encounter them that often, either.



Got me there.


----------



## Larry Gude

kwillia said:


> Okay, I haven't read the posts beyond this one but I'm stopping here to agree. This sums it up for me too.  I do not directly associate morality with religion. Some of the most immoral acting people I know go to church each week and some of the nicest moral people I know do not practice any religion.



Where the hell is the 'like' button around here?????


----------



## MMDad

Larry Gude said:


> The LAST thing he'd want his children to do is cast them out. That's the faith I was taught.



That's not what I was taught. I was taught about the vengeful God that must be appeased or you will burn in fiery hell. That's why I was agnostic for decades. I wanted to believe, but I could not make myself believe in a God that was looking for any possible technicality to exclude me, all the while hearing how I was a sinner and essentially destined to damnation.

In the other thread Hank stated that God is Love. That sums it up better than anything. That's the only way I can believe. The negativity that some ascribe to God are completely human inventions. I refuse to believe in a God that needs to use fear to keep us in line.


----------



## Larry Gude

MMDad said:


> That's not what I was taught. I was taught about the vengeful God that must be appeased or you will burn in fiery hell. That's why I was agnostic for decades. I wanted to believe, but I could not make myself believe in a God that was looking for any possible technicality to exclude me, all the while hearing how I was a sinner and essentially destined to damnation.
> 
> .



You, obviously, were not an Episcopal...


----------



## b23hqb

MMDad said:


> That's not what I was taught. I was taught about the vengeful God that must be appeased or you will burn in fiery hell. That's why I was agnostic for decades. I wanted to believe, but I could not make myself believe in a God that was looking for any possible technicality to exclude me, all the while hearing how I was a sinner and essentially destined to damnation.
> 
> In the other thread Hank stated that God is Love. That sums it up better than anything. That's the only way I can believe. The negativity that some ascribe to God are completely human inventions. I refuse to believe in a God that needs to use fear to keep us in line.



It's not instilling fear. The fear comes from those who know there is a better way but decide to reject it, ya know the old saying "No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, know peace" bumper sticker mantra thingy.

It's love on the part of the Father. You, me, and everyone else, have the opportunity to receive or reject it. Really simple. No one can do it their way. That's why Jesus had to give it up to come here and give living proof of the glory of the Father. His own people saw Him in action, and still rejected Him. Nothing has changed, really, in 2,000 years.

His way, and His way only, and you won't be missing out on anything here - the world can't hold a candle to the brightness of God.

Individual choice, no matter how good one thinks they are.


----------



## Christy

Larry Gude said:


> Totally disagree. Most people get along just fine and are not horrible, day in and day out.



I beg to differ. People are horrible.  We're selfish, vain, cruel and arrogant.  Some are just able to hide it better than other's.


----------



## MMDad

Christy said:


> I beg to differ. People are horrible.  We're selfish, vain, cruel and arrogant.  Some are just able to hide it better than other's.



I hate to agree with Larry, but.....

I believe that most people do what they think is good, or at least not that bad. Even the really cruel people, like dictators who order executions. They believe that what they do is right, or at least jsutified under the circumstances. They may be horribly misguided and mistaken, but I still don't think that most are intentionally evil.

Of course there are those who choose to be horrible. But I don't believe that there are many of those.


----------



## mAlice

MMDad said:


> I hate to agree with Larry, but.....
> 
> I believe that most people do what they think is good, or at least not that bad. Even the really cruel people, like dictators who order executions. They believe that what they do is right, or at least jsutified under the circumstances. They may be horribly misguided and mistaken, but I still don't think that most are intentionally evil.
> 
> Of course there are those who choose to be horrible. But I don't believe that there are many of those.



I might be wrong, but I think Christy is talking more about your every day kind of horrible, not your dictator ordering executions type of horrible.  Although, I'm sure that's just around the corner.


----------



## kwillia

Christy said:


> I beg to differ. People are horrible.  We're selfish, vain, cruel and arrogant.  Some are just able to hide it better than other's.


It is the natural order of things to put "self-preservation" first. Humans are but just another species.


----------



## vraiblonde

Christy said:


> I beg to differ. People are horrible.  We're selfish, vain, cruel and arrogant.  Some are just able to hide it better than other's.



I don't know as you can say that, as a species, we are all those things.  Certainly there are people who are like that, but they don't make up the majority.  And there are great people who can on occasion be selfish, vain, etc, but that doesn't make up the bulk of their personality.

Of course you would have to define "horrible", which I don't think includes selfishness, vanity or arrogance.


----------



## Larry Gude

Christy said:


> I beg to differ. People are horrible.  We're selfish, vain, cruel and arrogant.  Some are just able to hide it better than other's.



I think mAlice put me in my place. It has a LOT to do with where I live. I was in SOMD for a visit a few weeks ago and the whole 235 corridor made me feel like being mean and scared. I didn't feel better until I got all the way back here. I get a HUGE amount of mental health benefits from being on this farm, this land. Space from other humans. Able to shoot, ride, piss in my yard, no close neighbors, no daily commute or dealings with convenience store crowds, none of the human pressures of population density.


----------



## Hollywoodmom

I don't think I've ever put this down in writing before but here goes. Just my thoughts:
The word "Christian" can be used an adjective to describe someone's good values, being charitable or celebrating Christmas. All nifty things. This is being culturally Christian.
For me, becoming a Christian is when the alignment in my life changed. God came first. Not me. 
I am saved because of who He is, not because of who I am.
Churches are full of judgemental turds. So are schools and supermarkets. Because we are all judgemental turds who sin all the time. Being a human is a messy business.
His grace in my life allows me the freedom to forgive myself and others. I am much more patient than I used to be.


----------



## Bonehead

Larry Gude said:


> I think mAlice put me in my place. It has a LOT to do with where I live. I was in SOMD for a visit a few weeks ago and the whole 235 corridor made me feel like being mean and scared. I didn't feel better until I got all the way back here. I get a HUGE amount of mental health benefits from being on this farm, this land. Space from other humans. Able to shoot, ride, piss in my yard, no close neighbors, no daily commute or dealings with convenience store crowds, none of the human pressures of population density.



I do believe that hit the nail on the head, Larry.

Too many human rats in too small a space here in this county. 

It used to be a great place to live, not so much now.

I have to say this thread is one of the most interesting that I have ever read.


----------



## Larry Gude

Bonehead said:


> I do believe that hit the nail on the head, Larry.
> 
> Too many human rats in too small a space here in this county.
> 
> .




I asked a friend, ex friend, how she did it, living in NYC and she said everyone learns to find their 'space' when they need a break and it disturbed me when she said it. The only way you can find 'space' where there is none, in my view, is some sort of mental distortion of reality and that can't be healthy. Yet, so many people really, really love their cities. Makes me itchy thinking about it.


----------



## PJay

[QUOTE. =Larry Gude;5444840]I think mAlice put me in my place. It has a LOT to do with where I live. I was in SOMD for a visit a few weeks ago and the whole 235 corridor made me feel like being mean and scared. I didn't feel better until I got all the way back here. I get a HUGE amount of mental health benefits from being on this farm, this land. Space from other humans. Able to shoot, ride, piss in my yard, no close neighbors, no daily commute or dealings with convenience store crowds, none of the human pressures of population density.[/QUOTE]


uh-huh


----------



## b23hqb

Let's go O's! I'm sure God loves baseball, and may the better team win.


----------



## vraiblonde

Bonehead said:


> Too many human rats in too small a space here in this county.



And yet I know many people in this county who I would not call horrible by any means.  Wonderful folks who are kind, generous, and loving.


----------



## vraiblonde

Hollywoodmom said:


> I don't think I've ever put this down in writing before but here goes. Just my thoughts:
> The word "Christian" can be used an adjective to describe someone's good values, being charitable or celebrating Christmas. All nifty things. This is being culturally Christian.
> For me, becoming a Christian is when the alignment in my life changed. God came first. Not me.
> I am saved because of who He is, not because of who I am.
> Churches are full of judgemental turds. So are schools and supermarkets. Because we are all judgemental turds who sin all the time. Being a human is a messy business.
> His grace in my life allows me the freedom to forgive myself and others. I am much more patient than I used to be.



I like this post


----------



## mAlice

Larry Gude said:


> I think mAlice put me in my place. It has a LOT to do with where I live. I was in SOMD for a visit a few weeks ago and the whole 235 corridor made me feel like being mean and scared. I didn't feel better until I got all the way back here. I get a HUGE amount of mental health benefits from being on this farm, this land. Space from other humans. Able to shoot, ride, piss in my yard, no close neighbors, no daily commute or dealings with convenience store crowds, none of the human pressures of population density.



That is so where I wanna' be. Not your town, but that environment. Retirement can't come soon enough.


----------



## mAlice

Hollywoodmom said:


> I don't think I've ever put this down in writing before but here goes. Just my thoughts:
> The word "Christian" can be used an adjective to describe someone's good values, being charitable or celebrating Christmas. All nifty things. This is being culturally Christian.
> For me, becoming a Christian is when the alignment in my life changed. God came first. Not me.
> I am saved because of who He is, not because of who I am.
> Churches are full of judgemental turds. So are schools and supermarkets. Because we are all judgemental turds who sin all the time. Being a human is a messy business.
> His grace in my life allows me the freedom to forgive myself and others. I am much more patient than I used to be.



Well said.  Before my epiphany, I had found a certain nirvana, that allowed me to be patient, outwardly kind, even if I was seething inside, qualities that most of us strive for daily. Was it me, or was it part of letting God back into my life, before I knew I was going to do it? Was something going on in my heart that I wasn't aware of yet? All questions that I'm not really seeking answers to, just pondering.


----------



## Bonehead

vraiblonde said:


> And yet I know many people in this county who I would not call horrible by any means.  Wonderful folks who are kind, generous, and loving.




Certainly met some like that as well. 

Then there are the tailgaters, horn blowing, bird flipping types if you are not going 60 MPH on 235. 

This base has changed the county for the detriment of all who live here. I have been here since 1973 and I really don't like what I see every day.

If my children didn't live here and I didn't have 5 acres of rural peace and quiet I would have been long gone when I retired.


----------



## Larry Gude

mAlice said:


> Well said.  Before my epiphany, I had found a certain nirvana, that allowed me to be patient, outwardly kind, even if I was seething inside, qualities that most of us strive for daily. Was it me, or was it part of letting God back into my life, before I knew I was going to do it? Was something going on in my heart that I wasn't aware of yet? All questions that I'm not really seeking answers to, just pondering.



That's my basic view of any religion; designed to help people cope with life. 

And that's why I am not a believer because there are all sorts of ways to cope, to learn patience, to be good to other people, human nature, understanding, tolerance, self control, personal happiness. Being humans and having a natural tendency to not like being told what to do, it makes perfect sense to come up with a plan that says "I'm not telling you how to act or what to do. This much greater, higher power is instructing and guiding you, if only you will listen. You get to choose! Of course, if you choose wrong..." All religions are, at core, social constructs because they are all about how to get along with your fellow man and have no more practical utility on a personal basis than believing in anything else as motivation to feel good, to take care of ones self. 

And, because I see it, organized religion, as, at core, of positive motivations and intent, I have no antagonism towards it. And, to me, it's not knowable so, for all I know I am totally wrong.


----------



## Amused_despair

I think that if it takes the threat of eternal damnation roasting in a lake of fire in order for you to be a good person....then deep down you may not exactly be a good person


----------



## Larry Gude

Amused_despair said:


> I think that if it takes the threat of eternal damnation roasting in a lake of fire in order for you to be a good person....then deep down you may not exactly be a good person



I know a born again guy that told me the only reason he saw to be good was the threat of God's disapproval. He saw no innate moral reason against taking from others other than Christianity. Very devout, very serious guy. Responsible, good family man, good husband. 

That scared the ####ing #### out me.


----------



## MMDad

Larry Gude said:


> And, because I see it, organized religion, as, at core, of positive motivations and intent, I have no antagonism towards it. And, to me, it's not knowable so, for all I know I am totally wrong.


 You have exceeded your monthly contract allowance of commas and will now be charged $.01 per comma.


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Christy said:


> I beg to differ. People are horrible.  We're selfish, vain, cruel and arrogant.  Some are just able to hide it better than other's.



If those are the traits you expect to find in people, you will find them. On the other hand, if you expect to find generosity, kindness, compassion, well then you will find those traits instead. One's pre-determined mindset influences one's perceptions and personal 'reality'.


----------



## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> If those are the traits you expect to find in people, you will find them. On the other hand, if you expect to find generosity, kindness, compassion, well then you will find those traits instead. One's pre-determined mindset influences one's perceptions and personal 'reality'.



There is a LOT of truth to that. In my view.


----------



## Larry Gude

MMDad said:


> You have exceeded your monthly contract allowance of commas and will now be charged $.01 per comma.



That's crap. I, personally, with my credit card, when I had not only the time but, the patience, purchased the unlimited, endless, bottomless coma plan for just suck, and similar, occasions. :


----------



## kwillia

Larry Gude said:


> That's crap. I, personally, with my credit card, when I had not only the time but, the patience, purchased the unlimited, endless, *bottomless coma plan * for just suck, and similar, occasions. :


We sure are getting your monies worth with most of your posts.


----------



## Larry Gude

kwillia said:


> We sure are getting your monies worth with most of your posts.



Do you know that Jesus never, and I mean NEVER condoned the use of fake plants?


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> That's my basic view of any religion; designed to help people cope with life.
> 
> And that's why I am not a believer because there are all sorts of ways to cope, to learn patience, to be good to other people, human nature, understanding, tolerance, self control, personal happiness. Being humans and having a natural tendency to not like being told what to do, it makes perfect sense to come up with a plan that says "I'm not telling you how to act or what to do. This much greater, higher power is instructing and guiding you, if only you will listen. You get to choose! Of course, if you choose wrong..." All religions are, at core, social constructs because they are all about how to get along with your fellow man and have no more practical utility on a personal basis than believing in anything else as motivation to feel good, to take care of ones self.
> 
> And, because I see it, organized religion, as, at core, of positive motivations and intent, I have no antagonism towards it. And, to me, it's not knowable so, for all I know I am totally wrong.



Well stated and liked this post for the most part.

But as we all know, religious belief often devolves into intolerance, hatred, and violence. The seeds of intolerance are evident already in many posts in this thread. Whether one chooses to believe or not, the only thing that really matters is compassion, kindness. and forgiveness to others, and to oneself.

A kind of "brotherhood of man" to borrow from John Lennon. But at my core I'm a realist, so I'm doubtful humanity will achieve this before it destroys itself. And on balance, like Lennon, I am still of the opinion that religion does more harm than good.


----------



## RoseRed

MMDad said:


> You have exceeded your monthly contract allowance of commas and will now be charged $.01 per comma.



I think I know who else this applies to.


----------



## GURPS

Christy said:


> This does not mean that I am perfect and it is a daily struggle to be compassionate and try and find some good in everyone, because most humans are just horrible, myself included some days.


----------



## GURPS

Hollywoodmom said:


> I don't think I've ever put this down in writing before but here goes. Just my thoughts:
> The word "Christian" can be used an adjective to describe someone's good values, being charitable or celebrating Christmas. All nifty things. This is being culturally Christian.
> For me, becoming a Christian is when the alignment in my life changed. God came first. Not me.
> I am saved because of who He is, not because of who I am.
> Churches are full of judgemental turds. So are schools and supermarkets. Because we are all judgemental turds who sin all the time. Being a human is a messy business.
> His grace in my life allows me the freedom to forgive myself and others. I am much more patient than I used to be.





that is awesome


----------



## Bann

RoseRed said:


> I think I know who else this applies to.


----------



## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> ...that religion does more harm than good.



Here's the thing. 1,000 years ago, 2,000, whatever, there needed to be a unifying theme to a society to survive or it would be lost to the next group who had a unifying theme. Simple function of basic survival based on growing intellect, the ability to think your way to a solution to over come brute force. 

So, eventually, you get to where the US was in 1776; an intellectual maturation that competing faiths could find harmony, that the literalism of the past was no longer necessary as the general population became more and more enlightened. So, faith was becoming a personal, rather than a collective, thing. 

Lennon, that idea, has an argument to be made today but, it must square itself with what would have replaced it 1-2,000 years ago.


----------



## ProximaCentauri

Larry Gude said:


> Here's the thing. 1,000 years ago, 2,000, whatever, there needed to be a unifying theme to a society to survive or it would be lost to the next group who had a unifying theme. Simple function of basic survival based on growing intellect, the ability to think your way to a solution to over come brute force.
> 
> So, eventually, you get to where the US was in 1776; an intellectual maturation that competing faiths could find harmony, that the literalism of the past was no longer necessary as the general population became more and more enlightened. So, faith was becoming a personal, rather than a collective, thing.
> 
> Lennon, that idea, has an argument to be made today but, it must square itself with what would have replaced it 1-2,000 years ago.



An interesting take. Can't say that I subscribe to it but it has got me thinking. I'm inclined to disagree with the assertion that a unifying theme 2000 years ago, in the form of religion, was a good thing that was somehow necessary for survival. What if a unifying theme of science could have taken hold instead? Could the human species be unified around science? Maybe unlikely to happen in the bronze age when humans knew very little and attributing circumstances to myth and the supernatural, seemed to be, well, the natural thing to do. But I would posit the human species would have a much better chance of survival if that were true today.


----------



## Larry Gude

ProximaCentauri said:


> An interesting take. Can't say that I subscribe to it but it has got me thinking. I'm inclined to disagree with the assertion that a unifying theme 2000 years ago, in the form of religion, was a good thing that was somehow necessary for survival. What if a unifying theme of science could have taken hold instead? Could the human species be unified around science? Maybe unlikely to happen in the bronze age when humans knew very little and attributing circumstances to myth and the supernatural, seemed to be, well, the natural thing to do. But I would posit the human species would have a much better chance of survival if that were true today.



What was easier years ago, the bogey man or a hypothesis? Frankly, now that you mention it, religion WAS science back in the day. "This is thus. Gods will!"  Frankly, it goes on today, readily observable in the man made global cool warming climate change faith. "This is because we want and believe to be!"


----------



## mAlice

Larry Gude said:


> Here's the thing. 1,000 years ago, 2,000, whatever, there needed to be a unifying theme to a society to survive or it would be lost to the next group who had a unifying theme. Simple function of basic survival based on growing intellect, the ability to think your way to a solution to over come brute force.



It was more than unification, and their basic survival was attributed to the commandments, not growing intellect.  While that statement can certainly be found arguable by some, it is still worth considering.  The Israelites received over 600 commandments (laws). Breaking some of the laws could have been the difference between life and death, just as breaking some of them today, could mean the difference between life and death, and I'm not talking about your spiritual life.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm


----------



## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> It was more than unification, and their basic survival was attributed to the commandments, not growing intellect.  While that statement can certainly be found arguable by some, it is still worth considering.  The Israelites received over 600 commandments (laws). Breaking some of the laws could have been the difference between life and death, just as breaking some of them today, could mean the difference between life and death, and I'm not talking about your spiritual life.
> 
> http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm



Let's not forget there were many other civilizations, some much more advanced like the Chinese (not to mention the Romans), that were doing just fine without any Judeo-Christian moral construct. And regarding the Israelites, I just can't buy the assertion that "their basic survival was attributed to the commandments".


----------



## mAlice

ProximaCentauri said:


> Let's not forget there were many other civilizations, some much more advanced like the Chinese (not to mention the Romans), that were doing just fine without any Judeo-Christian moral construct. And regarding the Israelites, I just can't buy the assertion that "their basic survival was attributed to the commandments".



Well, they didn't live in China.


----------



## ProximaCentauri

mAlice said:


> Well, they didn't live in China.



Scratching my head and wondering what point you're trying to make. And going back to your previous post, I'm wondering how you feel about all these laws, most of which are pure dogma that have nothing to do with survival or being a good human being...just pure obedience to a totalitarian supernatural.

I wonder how true faith can be tolerant. I don't think it can. What is your view?


----------



## hotcoffee

When you get a call from the surgeon and she says the cancer is terminal.... and you have hope....  

After all, what's the worst that can happen.... Heaven?


----------



## Dondi

_"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."  - James 1:27_

What do you supposed James meant by this? You can talk about sin and how Jesus came to save the world on the Cross. But the greater picture here, what needs to be understood, is that all the forgiveness of sin in the world is not going to change anything unless it is accompanied by a change in the way we treat one another. James goes on to sayin the next chapter that your faith in God is absolutely no good unless it is accompanied by actions that reflect that faith. 

 _"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:15-17_


Jesus didn't die on the Cross merely to forgive your sins, but rather reiterate everything that the law and the prophets summerized: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."  That is the fulfillment of the law. If you don't have that, then you don't have faith. If you are not willing to be "Christ' to people...visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (or what ever passion you can find in yourself in whatever capacity to serve)...then you simply don't have faith.  And keeping oneself unspotted from the world isn't about trying to keep the law, rather it's trying to live with people peacefully and cooperatively as much as is possible without doing each other harm.

And that is what Christianity _must_ be.

What are you doing as a Christian to bring this about? That is the question in must always ask myself.


----------



## hotcoffee

It's personal....

I've been a Christian all my life.  I loved singing in the choir.  I loved the ladies who taught Bible School.  I'll never forget a couple of the craft projects I learned to make in Vacation Bible School  

I loved seeing pictures of Jesus.  He was so handsome.... I knew He was nice.  He was what I was looking for in my life.  I knew it as a toddler.  Just seeing those pictures on the walls of the Bible Study classrooms.  

I can remember a morning, I was in my late 20's, after my children were taken by their father and grandmother, when I felt really really low.  Then I felt an arm around my shoulders.  I knew everything was going to be alright.  Amazing Grace.... I sang it to the sunrise.  

These events have been happening since I was a child.  I am a Christian.  First.....  

http://biblehub.com/joshua/24-15.htm"]http://biblehub.com/joshua/24-15.htm[/URL]

As for me and my house..... we serve the Lord.  We're happy to say it.  Just knowing that what I am doing is right..... it makes all the difference in the world.  I love being adopted into the family of true believers.  Because I enjoy believing that Jesus is watching out for me.... and has a place for me when I leave here.....  As a Christian.... Jesus is the best big brother or them all.    

That's what being a Christian means to me.....


----------



## dixiepeach

vraiblonde said:


> In light of our recent forumite conversions, I got to thinking about what it actually means to "find Jesus".  Does it mean you now have to be nice to people, more charitable and less hostile?  Do you stop drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex?  What exactly does it mean to embrace God and accept Jesus as your savior?
> 
> I'll be honest:  a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum.  People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.  So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian.  This is not meant to start a bunch of crap, although I'm sure (like everything else) it will, but I would seriously like the Christians on here to tell me what it means to them.  Is just saying you believe in God and Jesus enough, or do you have to prove it in some way; maybe live by the teachings of Christ?  Or is God content with you simply believing in Him?
> 
> Again, this is a real question.  I understand everyone's answer will be different, and that's cool - faith isn't one size fits all.



I think being a Christian means living a good life.  But I see some of the biggest hypocrites each sunday in the front row.  I think they think they can be evil all week, then show up at church and have all their sins washed away.  I'm pretty sure that's not how God wants us to live.


----------



## inkah

Does anything change if the focus shifts from what it is, to how did you get there?  I wonder how people got to be "christians".  Once you become one, how do you stay a Christian?


----------



## Christy

ProximaCentauri said:


> If those are the traits you expect to find in people, you will find them. On the other hand, if you expect to find generosity, kindness, compassion, well then you will find those traits instead. One's pre-determined mindset influences one's perceptions and personal 'reality'.



Well that's a load of horse ####.  Also, perceptions are NOT reality.  That mindset makes me insane, because it is false, and people like that tend to surround themselves with phony individuals.  Take movie stars for example.  They surround themselves with individuals who will tell them how smart they are, and how generous and compassionate they are, when most are narcissistic crazy people who really don't care about anyone but themselves and sustain themselves with bull####.  

I suspect my definition of horrible is very different than most.  I view horrible as failing each other in one way or another, and we've all done that.  If you don't ever think that you were horrible for failing a friend, family member, or a child in some way shape or form, you're one of those crazy people who twists their brain (and their perception of reality) into something that is false.

I'm not afraid to say I'm a horrible person, because I am sometimes.  When you ignore that about yourself, that is where you start to fall short because perfect people never strive to be better, they're content with where they are and do very little to be a better human being. 

JMHO. :shrug:


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## mamatutu

Christy said:


> Well that's a load of horse ####.  Also, perceptions are NOT reality.  That mindset makes me insane, because it is false, and people like that tend to surround themselves with phony individuals.  Take movie stars for example.  They surround themselves with individuals who will tell them how smart they are, and how generous and compassionate they are, when most are narcissistic crazy people who really don't care about anyone but themselves and sustain themselves with bull####.
> 
> I suspect my definition of horrible is very different than most.  I view horrible as failing each other in one way or another, and we've all done that.  If you don't ever think that you were horrible for failing a friend, family member, or a child in some way shape or form, you're one of those crazy people who twists their brain (and their perception of reality) into something that is false.
> 
> I'm not afraid to say I'm a horrible person, because I am sometimes.  When you ignore that about yourself, that is where you start to fall short because perfect people never strive to be better, they're content with where they are and do very little to be a better human being.
> 
> JMHO. :shrug:



:like: a lot!  You always seem to speak your mind even if it may be against the norm, or what people do not want to hear.  I admire that.  Your post is very insightful.


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## Radiant1

dixiepeach said:


> I think being a Christian means living a good life.  But I see some of the biggest hypocrites each sunday in the front row.  I think they think they can be evil all week, then show up at church and have all their sins washed away.  I'm pretty sure that's not how God wants us to live.



Well aren't you just sitting in the back being all judgmental about others. Jesus came for the sinners not the saints. Leave the hypocrites alone. You never know, God may have invited them to sit in the front. Their journey is their own, as is yours.


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## ProximaCentauri

Christy said:


> Well that's a load of horse ####.  Also, perceptions are NOT reality.  That mindset makes me insane, because it is false, and people like that tend to surround themselves with phony individuals.  Take movie stars for example.  They surround themselves with individuals who will tell them how smart they are, and how generous and compassionate they are, when most are narcissistic crazy people who really don't care about anyone but themselves and sustain themselves with bull####.
> 
> I suspect my definition of horrible is very different than most.  I view horrible as failing each other in one way or another, and we've all done that.  If you don't ever think that you were horrible for failing a friend, family member, or a child in some way shape or form, you're one of those crazy people who twists their brain (and their perception of reality) into something that is false.
> 
> I'm not afraid to say I'm a horrible person, because I am sometimes.  When you ignore that about yourself, that is where you start to fall short because perfect people never strive to be better, they're content with where they are and do very little to be a better human being.
> 
> JMHO. :shrug:



The point that was being made, but apparently lost on you, is that perceptions can and will influence one's personal 'reality', noting that 'personal reality' does not equate to true or absolute reality. As an aside, absolute reality is not really perceived by anyone due to imperfections and latencies inherent in the five senses. 

You are obviously a person that feels they have more of a bead on objective reality than most. That attitude is fine by me. The more objective we all can be about ourselves and others, the better off the world will be. Most perceive others, and themselves, through the fog of personal biases. Most have the inability to achieve any semblance of true self-awareness.


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## Zguy28

In response to the original question: it means a new life. 

Jesus has forgiven my sins, and broken its power to enslave me.
Jesus has purchased my redemption by his righteousness, not mine. In gratitude and love, I respond with an upright life according to God's standards.
I receive the Holy Spirit through faith in what Jesus did, and He makes me a new person inside. A new person lives a new way.

But the bottom line answer is I no longer live for myself, but instead for God. This life is a life of faith with good works, you know... love God and love your neighbor. I still have to live in this world, and responsibly, but not live for the things of this world.


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## PsyOps

vraiblonde said:


> In light of our recent forumite conversions, I got to thinking about what it actually means to "find Jesus".  Does it mean you now have to be nice to people, more charitable and less hostile?  Do you stop drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex?  What exactly does it mean to embrace God and accept Jesus as your savior?
> 
> I'll be honest:  a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum.  People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.  So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian.  This is not meant to start a bunch of crap, although I'm sure (like everything else) it will, but I would seriously like the Christians on here to tell me what it means to them.  Is just saying you believe in God and Jesus enough, or do you have to prove it in some way; maybe live by the teachings of Christ?  Or is God content with you simply believing in Him?
> 
> Again, this is a real question.  I understand everyone's answer will be different, and that's cool - faith isn't one size fits all.



I’d like to think most people accept Christ because they have come to a point in their lives that the world isn’t all about them.  That serving others is far more gratifying than serving themselves.  And that they find this level of service to others in the example that is Jesus.   And through this desire to serve others you don’t find you HAVE to stop doing certain things, you are compelled to.


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## ProximaCentauri

PsyOps said:


> I’d like to think most people accept Christ because they have come to a point in their lives that the world isn’t all about them.



But I don't think that's an accurate characterization of Christians or the way they come to the faith. Indoctrination from early childhood, not acceptance later in life, is the norm. And, Christians do in fact believe that the world, i.e. creation, _is_ all about them. If you're a Christian, you believe the world and the universe were created with you in mind, and that the creator of the universe will grant you eternal life. What could be more self-centered than that? 

Regarding the OP, I would have to agree that many Christians on this forum are not great ambassadors for the faith. Reminds me of what Gandhi said..."I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians".


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## hotcoffee

inkah said:


> Does anything change if the focus shifts from what it is, to how did you get there?  I wonder how people got to be "christians".  Once you become one, how do you stay a Christian?



Great thing to wonder on.  Yes.... something changes and the focus does shift.  It's as if there was a hole in you life and once you become a Christian that hole is filled with light and you become whole.  It does indeed change your whole outlook on life.


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## Amused_despair

I think those who volunteer for groups such as Doctors without Borders are showing what it means to be a true Christian.  They are volunteering to go to dangerous places and treat people who are sick and dying.  They place their lives in danger, not only from the diseases they treat but from the criminals who operate in those areas.  On top of that now they face public scorn, ridicule and risk being ostracized when they return back to their home country.  See Mathew 25:31 – 25:46.


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## SG_Player1974

Honestly... if you want to know where to find God, you need look no further than PRISON.

Everyone seems to find him there...


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## PsyOps

ProximaCentauri said:


> But I don't think that's an accurate characterization of Christians or the way they come to the faith. Indoctrination from early childhood, not acceptance later in life, is the norm. And, Christians do in fact believe that the world, i.e. creation, _is_ all about them. If you're a Christian, you believe the world and the universe were created with you in mind, and that the creator of the universe will grant you eternal life. What could be more self-centered than that?
> 
> Regarding the OP, I would have to agree that many Christians on this forum are not great ambassadors for the faith. Reminds me of what Gandhi said..."I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians".



I don’t understand “not acceptance later in life”.  

I am a prime example of someone that was NOT indoctrinated.  My dad was an avid atheist and my mom did what my dad did.  And if you think Christians believe the world is about them, then you just don’t understand the mind of a Christian.  I believe the world and the universe were created with US – all of us – in mind.  Eternal life is offered to all of us, not just me.  I want everyone to have it, not just me.  I’m not sure who indoctrinated you with these false notions, but the indoctrination certainly goes both ways.  It seems to me you have spent little time with Christians to understand how they really think.

Much to your misconceptions about Christians, they are not perfect people.  They have the same pain, pressures, loss, suffering, etc… as anyone else in the world.  They get angry, depressed, might cuss, drink, smoke, use drugs, etc… like any other human.  We are just as flawed as you are, and any attempt to portray Christians differently is just a false perception.


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## b23hqb

Indoctrination. How bogus. I grew up with Christian parents, pretty much going to church regularly, but did not get saved until I was on my own at 23. I have two older sisters that I do not believe are saved. I have four younger siblings that I know without a doubt that they are saved. 

No indoctrination. That term comes from those that, really, are afraid and insecure in whatever choice they have made and try to live with.

Christ Jesus, hanging on that cross of execution, was and will always be without parallel. He was the pure exchange for the impure, the innocent giving himself for the guilty, and demonstrates to the world the evil that cannot be understood by those that crucified Him, but evil can only be exposed through the eyes of the Crucified One.

Thank you, Jesus. From a blood-bought sinner that you willingly died for some 19 hundred and fifty years before my existence on earth.

Amen.


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## ProximaCentauri

PsyOps said:


> I don’t understand “not acceptance later in life”.
> 
> I am a prime example of someone that was NOT indoctrinated.  My dad was an avid atheist and my mom did what my dad did.  And if you think Christians believe the world is about them, then you just don’t understand the mind of a Christian.  I believe the world and the universe were created with US – all of us – in mind.  Eternal life is offered to all of us, not just me.  I want everyone to have it, not just me.  I’m not sure who indoctrinated you with these false notions, but the indoctrination certainly goes both ways.  It seems to me you have spent little time with Christians to understand how they really think.
> 
> Much to your misconceptions about Christians, they are not perfect people.  They have the same pain, pressures, loss, suffering, etc… as anyone else in the world.  They get angry, depressed, might cuss, drink, smoke, use drugs, etc… like any other human.  We are just as flawed as you are, and any attempt to portray Christians differently is just a false perception.



Your supposition regarding my experience with Christianity and Christians is incorrect, but nice try. Personal experience is anecdotal evidence anyway, like your personal experience as a Christian, and is of dubious validity when making a logically based argument. 

If you were born in a Muslim country, it's extremely likely you would practice the Islamic faith; or born in the Hindu-dominant regions of India, you would probably have an affinity for the Monkey God, Hanuman. Born into a Mormon family, you are more than likely to become one. Religious indoctrination is the primary driver of peoples' religious affiliation, not conversion. Your personal conversion story is an uncommon one and I think you realize that.

The mentality of Christianity parallels that of the other Abrahamic faiths. Each religion believes their faith to be the one true faith. And each believer is certain they have been 'called' or 'chosen' by the one true God. The egoism of man bolsters this belief in 'exclusivity' and this also fosters a 'chosen-people' mentality. Mono-theistic religions and their beliefs are egocentric. This stems from the fact that they are man-made. The egocentricity of man explains much when examining how religions evolved. So when I say that Christianity is a self-centered religion, it's in the context that I view the majority of religions in this way.


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## PsyOps

ProximaCentauri said:


> Your supposition regarding my experience with Christianity and Christians is incorrect, but nice try. Personal experience is anecdotal evidence anyway, like your personal experience as a Christian, and is of dubious validity when making a logically based argument.
> 
> If you were born in a Muslim country, it's extremely likely you would practice the Islamic faith; or born in the Hindu-dominant regions of India, you would probably have an affinity for the Monkey God, Hanuman. Born into a Mormon family, you are more than likely to become one. Religious indoctrination is the primary driver of peoples' religious affiliation, not conversion. Your personal conversion story is an uncommon one and I think you realize that.
> 
> The mentality of Christianity parallels that of the other Abrahamic faiths. Each religion believes their faith to be the one true faith. And each believer is certain they have been 'called' or 'chosen' by the one true God. The egoism of man bolsters this belief in 'exclusivity' and this also fosters a 'chosen-people' mentality. Mono-theistic religions and their beliefs are egocentric. This stems from the fact that they are man-made. The egocentricity of man explains much when examining how religions evolved. So when I say that Christianity is a self-centered religion, it's in the context that I view the majority of religions in this way.



See, this is what atheist do; they will come into a quite innocent thread of “what makes you believe” and throw their arrogant “Christianity is a self-centered religion” and Christianity “stems from the fact that they are man-made” in order to satisfy their egocentric belief that we’re all a bunch delusional idiots – the entire mass of trillions of us over the millennium.  

I realize this this is an open forum, but your comments aren’t even remotely relevant to the OP.  How about starting your own “Why believers are stupid” thread?


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## PJay

And then comes "how Christian of you!"

 Ugh..rerun after rerun...

PC, just wondering....slapped any Islamic peeps lately?


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## ProximaCentauri

PsyOps said:


> See, this is what atheist do; they will come into a quite innocent thread of “what makes you believe” and throw their arrogant “Christianity is a self-centered religion” and Christianity “stems from the fact that they are man-made” in order to satisfy their egocentric belief that we’re all a bunch delusional idiots – the entire mass of trillions of us over the millennium.
> 
> I realize this this is an open forum, but your comments aren’t even remotely relevant to the OP.  How about starting your own “Why believers are stupid” thread?



To be accurate, the original post was titled..."What does being a Christian mean to you?" Including the observation: "I'll be honest: a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum. People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian."

I simply responded to your supposition that..."most people accept Christ because they have come to a point in their lives that the world isn't all about them." Paraphrasing my response, I argued that the opposite is true. That Christians are typically indoctrinated into the faith from a young age and they believe the _world really is all about them_, and that egocentricity defines the faith. 

Instead of providing sound arguments to support your position, your responses have been anecdotal and ad-hominem. 
It seems the only thing you have accomplished is that you're well on your way to validate the original poster's observations.


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## PsyOps

ProximaCentauri said:


> To be accurate, the original post was titled..."What does being a Christian mean to you?" Including the observation: "I'll be honest: a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum. People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian."
> 
> I simply responded to your supposition that..."most people accept Christ because they have come to a point in their lives that the world isn't all about them." Paraphrasing my response, I argued that the opposite is true. That Christians are typically indoctrinated into the faith from a young age and they believe the _world really is all about them_, and that egocentricity defines the faith.
> 
> Instead of providing sound arguments to support your position, your responses have been anecdotal and ad-hominem.
> It seems the only thing you have accomplished is that you're well on your way to validate the original poster's observations.



Well, I’ll stand by my point that MOST come to Christ because they believe the world doesn’t revolve around them.  I  am not stating that some don’t get it.  There are still going to be some claiming to be Christian (and they very well may be; it’s not for me to decide) and exhibit some very ugly attitudes.  And I think it’s fair to call their faith into question.  These people do not represent the Christian faith as a whole.  Having been a Christian for most of my life, and having been all over the world, I am comfortable stating that MOST Christians are Christians because they want to serve others and got rid of their selfish ways.  

If you read the New Testament Jesus was quite critical of those that distorted their faith.  He used some very sharp language towards them; much considered to be profane in those days.  So profane that he was accused of blasphemy; and ultimately put to death.  Even when He knew what His ultimate demise would be, this did not stop Him from sharply reminding people what the Christian faith is about.  And He especially did not hold back in exposing and singling out the Sanhedrin and leaders of their synagogues.  So Jesus could get pretty ugly, and I have no doubt that many people viewed Jesus in the same manner as Vrai is viewing some of the co-called Christians on this board.  Don’t interpret this as condoning bad behavior.  I think the discussions in these forums can bring out the worst in people that are otherwise very kind and caring people.  Back in the day, before I met Vrai, I thought she was crass and hateful.  I had a really negative attitude about her; until I met her.  I see how caring and giving she is and know she isn’t anything like what I thought.

So people are not always what they appear in these mostly-anonymous forums.


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## ProximaCentauri

PsyOps said:


> Well, I’ll stand by my point that MOST come to Christ because they believe the world doesn’t revolve around them.  I  am not stating that some don’t get it.  There are still going to be some claiming to be Christian (and they very well may be; it’s not for me to decide) and exhibit some very ugly attitudes.  And I think it’s fair to call their faith into question.  These people do not represent the Christian faith as a whole.  Having been a Christian for most of my life, and having been all over the world, I am comfortable stating that MOST Christians are Christians because they want to serve others and got rid of their selfish ways.
> 
> If you read the New Testament Jesus was quite critical of those that distorted their faith.  He used some very sharp language towards them; much considered to be profane in those days.  So profane that he was accused of blasphemy; and ultimately put to death.  Even when He knew what His ultimate demise would be, this did not stop Him from sharply reminding people what the Christian faith is about.  And He especially did not hold back in exposing and singling out the Sanhedrin and leaders of their synagogues.  So Jesus could get pretty ugly, and I have no doubt that many people viewed Jesus in the same manner as Vrai is viewing some of the co-called Christians on this board.  Don’t interpret this as condoning bad behavior.  I think the discussions in these forums can bring out the worst in people that are otherwise very kind and caring people.  Back in the day, before I met Vrai, I thought she was crass and hateful.  I had a really negative attitude about her; until I met her.  I see how caring and giving she is and know she isn’t anything like what I thought.
> 
> So people are not always what they appear in these mostly-anonymous forums.



I suspect vraiblonde's ulterior motive was to trigger some self-examination by the Christian regulars posting in this forum. I agree with her comment, and would also add that intolerance, bigotry, and ignorance are very evident as well. Let's hope these people are better human beings than their on-line personas would suggest. 

Not unexpectedly, we remain at an impasse with our respective views. I maintain that it's impossible to think objectively about one's own faith. But I do agree that on an individual basis, religious people can be some of the nicest you'd ever want to meet, and I don't contest there are many well intentioned people of faith.

As an aside, I'm having dinner with a Catholic priest next week. This is not unusual; I've had dinner with numerous priests and pastors in my lifetime. Some remain close friends.


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## Dondi

PsyOps said:
			
		

> Well, I’ll stand by my point that MOST come to Christ because they believe the world doesn’t revolve around them.



I guarantee ya that a majority of Christians come to Christ because they don't want to fry in hell. That's called self-preservation.


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## PsyOps

Dondi said:


> I guarantee ya that a majority of Christians come to Christ because they don't want to fry in hell. That's called self-preservation.



Actually most come to Christ because they have run into a major crisis in their lives:  cancer, put in jail, addiction, etc…  These situations cause a person to humble themselves to a higher authority; that up to that point, all they have been doing in their lives was about them; then life suddenly smacks them down and they require help from a place they know they won’t get from any person.  I think going to hell is a secondary thought.


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## mamatutu

PsyOps said:


> Actually most come to Christ because they have run into a major crisis in their lives:  cancer, put in jail, addiction, etc…  These situations cause a person to humble themselves to a higher authority; that up to that point, all they have been doing in their lives was about them; then life suddenly smacks them down and they require help from a place they know they won’t get from any person.  I think going to hell is a secondary thought.



So, is that how you found Christ?  All of the above, and all?


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## hotcoffee

vraiblonde said:


> In light of our recent forumite conversions, I got to thinking about what it actually means to "find Jesus".



My mother use to scowl when she said that someone "found Jesus".  

In the book Gone With The Wind, the family was required to go into the sitting room and read the Bible every day.  My mother grew up in that kind of home.  She resented it.  My Grandmother was a lay minister.  They lived up in the holler.... when the preacher from town couldn't get to the church building because of high water or snow, my Grandmother would preach and teach.  She has a wing named after her in that little church up there in Front Royal.    

My mother said that "growing up, the Bible was hammered into her".  My Mother was Bible smart and Christ stupid.     



vraiblonde said:


> Does it mean you now have to be nice to people, more charitable and less hostile?  Do you stop drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex?  What exactly does it mean to embrace God and accept Jesus as your savior?



No.  It doesn't mean you have to be nice, charitable, and less hostile to be a Christian.  It doesn't mean that you have to quit drinking, cussing, and having premarital sex.  You don't become instantly perfect.  You are still human.  People are just ignorant.

If we had to be perfect to "find Jesus".... Jesus would still be lost to us.  There are a whole lot of people in this world that are going to go to church as soon as they quit drinking, drugging, whoring, and when they can be charitable, nice, and they can stop hating people.  They are never going to make it.  It just can't be done.....  You need to accept Jesus to have a prayer.




vraiblonde said:


> I'll be honest:  a few of the people congratulating their new flock mates are some of the nastiest people on this forum.  People who make unprovoked attacks on others and are generally hostile, don't really contribute anything positive to the board.  So, seriously, I'm confused as to what it means to be a Christian.  This is not meant to start a bunch of crap, although I'm sure (like everything else) it will, but I would seriously like the Christians on here to tell me what it means to them.



I don't know how many times I've had to ask Jesus to forgive me for things I just can't seem to do on my own.  I've had days when I posted a Bible Verse in the morning.... and then that very afternoon I cussed someone and gave them the finger for cutting me off.  

Accepting Jesus into your life is a real work in progress.  The human side just keeps getting out.  



vraiblonde said:


> Is just saying you believe in God and Jesus enough, or do you have to prove it in some way; maybe live by the teachings of Christ?  Or is God content with you simply believing in Him?
> 
> Again, this is a real question.  I understand everyone's answer will be different, and that's cool - faith isn't one size fits all.



We are supposed to strive to be Christ-like once we have accepted Jesus into our lives.  That's the key.

IMHO....  When you first accept Christ.... there's this warm feeling that comes over you.  It's an actual physical event.  The spine actually tingles.  You feel like the "something is missing" feeling is a thing of the past.  You feel warm and glowing... and this lasts for a while.... it's really like you are a lamp and people will see there is something different about you.

In the book they use in AA, people who knew Bill W were amazed when they saw the difference in him.  It's like that.  

In time.... just like a fire in a fireplace.... the fire fades.... it needs to be nourished.... and humans get lazy.  They don't read the Bible... they don't pray.... they go to church and they fall asleep.... some even move to the front row to keep from falling asleep...

Jesus describes this.

Matthew 12:43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”​
The only way to keep that original fire.... that allows you to be more Christ-like... is prayer.  The prayer I use is simple.  "God, what is wrong with me?  Please forgive me for being such a sorry Christian.  Help me Lord.  I can't do this without you." 

That warm feeling will return.... don't forget the next prayer "Thank you Lord".

I hope that answers your question.... "Finding Jesus" isn't really being a Christian.....  It's just the beginning.... you have to work at being a Christian [being Christ-like] every day.... just like Bill W had to work at staying sober every day.

And some days... I really suck at it....


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## Dondi

PsyOps said:


> Actually most come to Christ because they have run into a major crisis in their lives:  cancer, put in jail, addiction, etc…  These situations cause a person to humble themselves to a higher authority; that up to that point, all they have been doing in their lives was about them; then life suddenly smacks them down and they require help from a place they know they won’t get from any person.  I think going to hell is a secondary thought.



I would be interested in what statistics you can come up with to fortify your assertion. 

All of the gospel presentations I've seen are some variant of the "Roman Road", of which one of the primary points is that because of our sins we are destined to hell. That is clear from scripture. I mean, that is what one is being "saved" _from_ in the conventional sense of the word. It is what most Christians are raised on. My first encounter with Christ involved seeing myself in that danger and needing the Savior, whereby I acted upon it. 

I'm not saying that what you described cannot lead a person to Christ, but I don't think that is how most Christians come to Christ. The fundamental problem is sin. And until one recognizes and acknowledges that sin, the judgement of God will remain. The whole reason for the Cros is that the price Christ paid for that sin will save one from hell.


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