# What is Islam?



## abdulhaqq

*What is Islam? Islam Condemns Terrorism!*

Islam means to testify with certainy that there is no god but Allah who is without beginning, end, needs, and partners. He is absolutely dissimilar to His creation. He possesses life, knowledge, will, power, all-sight, all-hearing, and speech. 

Due to His infinite mercy and concern for mankind, He has sent prophets (with miracles as proof of their veracity) throughout history to guide mankind (some of whom recieved scripture). This long line of prophets began with Adam and ended with Muhammad (peace be upon them all) who was truthful and trustworthy and his miracle was the Qur'an (the speech of Allah transmitted through the Angel Gabriel). 

Muslims affirm the existence of life after death, paradise and hell, and the divine decree. 

Since Allah is the Lord and Master of creation, one worship is due to Him and him alone. He has prescribed five daily prayers, fasting in the month of Ramadhan, seasonal charity, and Pilgrimage to the Holy Cities of Makkah and Madinah if one can afford it.


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## Pete

Where does the part about blowing up innocent women and children in pizza parlors come in?


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## blacklabman

Islam is a religion of the Dark Ages that cannot adjust to the modern world.  That is except when it uses the weapons of the modern world to kill the innocents.


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## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> Where does the part about blowing up innocent women and children in pizza parlors come in?



Islam actually condemns the innocent murder of civilians. This is established clearly from Islamic texts such as the Qur'an and also from legal verdicts (fatwas) from scholars.

The Qur'an unequivocally prohibits the murder of innocents:

_...whoever kills a soul - unless for a soul[1] or for corruption [done] in the land[2] - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And, whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." [Qur'an, 5:32]_

_"Among mankind is he whose speech impresses you in worldly life, and he calls Allah to witness as to what is in his heart, yet he is the fiercest of opponents. And, when he goes away, he strives throughout the land to cause corruption therein, and to destroy crops[7] and lives[8]. And Allah does not love corruption." [Qur'an, 2:204-5]_

These verses indicate that wanton destruction and indiscriminate killing are tantamount to working mischief /corruption upon earth.

-------------------------------------------------------

Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) himself condemned the murder of both civilians and property during warfare:
_
"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"_

------------

_
Book 019, Number 4319 Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children.
_

---------
_
Book 019, Number 4320:

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children._

------------------------------------------------------

With regards to the prohibition on suicide bombing, there are a plethora of eminent Muslim jurists who have condemned it in very detailed legal verdicts (fatwas):

With regards to Kidnapping and Beheadings:
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4219&CATE=124

"The Hijacked Caravan"
http://www.ihsanic-intelligence.com/dox/The_Hijacked_Caravan.pdf

Here is a lengthy verdict that refutes textual references used by terrorists who unfortunately happen to be Muslim:
Fatwa Against The Targeting Of Civilians
http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

Various Muslim organizations and governments through out the world have condemned terrorism and have been actively working alongside our government, military, and intelligence agencies in prosecuting terrorists. Muslims all accross the world are on the front lines of the war on terror, as can be evidenced in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Your claims are weak and infantile.


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## Pete

What about sawing the heads off people?


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## abdulhaqq

blacklabman said:
			
		

> Islam is a religion of the Dark Ages that cannot adjust to the modern world.  That is except when it uses the weapons of the modern world to kill the innocents.



These are also unsubstantiated claims with absolutely no proof. Only a person of complete ignorance of Islam would make such weak and pathetic claims. I wouldn't be surprised if you've never even explored Islamic theology or jurisprudence at all and base almost all of your opinions on xenophobic, racist, and biased sources. 

People shouldn't be honest enough with themselves to look past the hatred espoused by individuals such as yourself and explore Islam independently and judiciously to see if these absurd claims are even true or not. Doing anything less would be intellectually dishonest.

With regards to your second claims about killing innocent civilians, see the post above that contains extensive resources on the condemnation of terrorism. 

With regards to your first claim, that Islam cannot adjust to modern life, this is equally absurd and equally reflective of your ignorance of this religion. 

*On the Claim that "Islam is Medieval, Not Modern"*

Fire was discovered almost 4,000 years ago. No one in their right mind would say 'we don't need fire because its from pre-modern era'.

This dichotomy between modernity and traditionalism is completely fictatious.

Firstly, the theory itself is too abstract too apply. When does the modern era begin and when does it end? Is the modern era after the dismantling of the colonial apparatus? If so, then does this mean that our Constitution itself is not considered a 'modern document' and should be abandoned? I would think the reasonable person would conclude no. Even though the Constitution is an ancient document, it holds mechanisms within it adapt to change. *These terms 'modernity' and 'traditionalism' are invented terms that are painfully insufficient for describing the complex phenomenon erupting in the Muslim world today.* The problems in the Muslim world are not due to a lack of technology and adapting to modern systems of government or economics, the issue is social injustice from internal and external causes. Social injustice is not limited to particular social models. Social injustice can result from modern paradigms just as equally as they can arise from ancient paradigms.

Secondly, and this is the most important reason why claiming that the struggle within the Muslim world is between the forces of modernity and medievialism is absolutely flawed,* Islam holds within it the very same legal mechanisms to adapt to new circumstances just like the Constitution. Islam has systematically established dominance ine very corner of the world at different times without abandoning its core tenets by adopting its legal rulings to the particular needs of the people. Through the institution of taqleed, Islam is able to retain a corporate coherency that other religions have been unable to attain (such as Christianity) while the doctrine of ijtehad (independent reasoning) enables Islam to adopt a flexibility that prevents the law from being inefficient and unjust (such as Judaism).* When the Muslim community is faced with a novel problem or issue that isn't directly addressed in the primary sources of Islamic jurisprudence, then one can engage in *ijtehad* or "independent reasoning." Thus, Islamic jurisprudence is constantly being adopted, reviewed, and revised in order to make it adapt to modern circumstances. This shows that Islam as a whole is far from being outdated, but rather, it is transcendant and can subsist throughout the ages and through out history.

Furthermore, the underlying objectives of Islamic jurisprudence are analagous to the objectives underlying Constitutional jurisprudence. For example, the Declaration of Independence establishes three primary objectives for our subsequent Constitutional jurisprudence which is to preserve life, liberty, and property. Islamic jurisprudence recognizes that the underlying objectives of the laws is the preservation of faith, life, family, property, and intellect. The Constitution contains such objectives as well in various clauses.

So to those who say that "islam is a medieval religion", really don't understand Islam. It contains legal mechanisms for adapting to any era or locality.


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## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> What about sawing the heads off people?



Pete, 

I'm beginning to think that you can't read. I wrote a rather extensively response immediately above your own that addressed this *exact* topic.

If you are truly objective and academically honest, you would have taken the time to read the response. You've just made yourself look illiterate, uneducated, and overzealous.

Whose being 'irrational' and 'medieval' now?

with peace,

Abdulhaqq


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## Mikeinsmd

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Islam actually condemns the innocent murder of civilians. This is established clearly from Islamic texts such as the Qur'an and also from legal verdicts (fatwas) from scholars.
> 
> The Qur'an unequivocally prohibits the murder of innocents:
> 
> _...whoever kills a soul - *unless for a soul[1] or for corruption [done] in the land[2] -* it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And, whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." [Qur'an, 5:32]_
> Your claims are weak and infantile.


Ok raghead, explain the highlighted text above coward.  Hardly "unequivocal". Got a lil contradiction going on here huh??   

Weak and infantile is hiding in a cave ordering heads to be sawed off & planes flown into buildings. 

Islam is a religion that needs to be annihilated!!


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## Bustem' Down

What a bunch of bigots.


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## abdulhaqq

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Ok raghead, explain the highlighted text above coward.  Hardly "unequivocal". Got a lil contradiction going on here huh??
> 
> Weak and infantile is hiding in a cave ordering heads to be sawed off & planes flown into buildings.
> 
> How do you explain that camel fukcer??
> 
> Islam is a religion that needs to be annihilated!!



Dear Mikeinsmd,

There is little substance in your response. It is entirely irrational and archaic and remniscent of Medieval style logic, or lack there of. If you want to engage in a serious discussion of Islam, thats fine with me, but I ask that you engage in a little more etiquette than name-calling. The fact that you and your cohorts must engage in stereotypical comments and name-calling is a reflection of the weakness of your own intellectual stamina, not of Islams. 

With regards to the comment of 'corruption', this term possesses a double meaning:
1. The first meaning is with regards to those who commit corruption in the form of breaking laws and causing civil and criminal mischief. This verse alestablishes that one can use the death penalty for various crimes, including terrorism. The punishment for engaging in terrorism under Islamic law is death.

2. This verse also permits a state to defend itself against foreign aggression, however, other Islamic texts such as the one's highlighted above regulate such defensive warfare. One cannot kill innocents, one cannot kill women, children, or the elderly, or destroy property.

The rest of your comments have already been addressed above. 

Your constant attempts to portray terrorism as being Islamic have been refuted both textually and intellectually. 

The ironic part is that many xenophobes complain that Muslims don't do enough to condemn terrorism. Yet, one such American Muslims actually go about to do so, they get told by ignorant hate-mongorers that "islam is really terrorist anyway".

Which one is it? Here I am, an American Muslim whose father served in Vietnam condemning terrorism and I'm being told by uneducated people such as yourself that it doesn't matter.

Wow, some people just choose to live in their own world.

I suggest you stop spewing out such vitriol for a moment and realize just how ignorant, childish, and irrational the comments are in this thread.

With Peace, 

Abdulhaqq.


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## Bustem' Down

This guy is tryingto say what was done was wrong.  That Islam is a peaceful religion that fanatics have skewed.  Exactly what you have been screaming for since 9/11 and all you can do is spew hate filled remarks.


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## vraiblonde

Watch the language in the Religion forum, please.  There's no need for name-calling and profanity.



			
				Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> That Islam is a peaceful religion that fanatics have skewed.


There are an awful lot of fanatics in that religion.  In fact, the leaders of the religion are fanatics who encourage fanaticism.  It's kind of like saying the Democrat party is moderate, even though their leadership is decidedly Leftist - doesn't fly.



> You've just made yourself look illiterate, uneducated, and overzealous.
> 
> Whose being 'irrational' and 'medieval' now?
> 
> *with peace,*
> 
> Abdulhaqq


That made me laugh    For someone who's trying to buck worldwide media coverage and say they're all wrong, you've got a funny way of making your point.

"We are religion of peace!  And if you don't agree, we'll chop your head off and burn your home to the ground!"


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## vincenzo4

*Can't Read*

Ma Salaam my friend.  I have experienced the same dissonance with the local talent here.  They read what they want, and read into it what they desire.

I agree with your assertions of Islaam.  What your religion is experiencing is a hostage taking of your faith, your home and heart by murderers.  This global jihad is not at the hands of the huddled and embattled family of three trying to raise a decent family in Baghdad.

This is nothing but another cycle of a sect of humanity who wants to rule the world and is using a religious faith to drive it on.

I know many of your faith personally who despise the bloodletting, who have lost family and friends repeatedly, and yet their courage to help with this war is courage many of these people could do well to emulate.

Vincenzo




			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Pete,
> 
> I'm beginning to think that you can't read. I wrote a rather extensively response immediately above your own that addressed this *exact* topic.
> 
> If you are truly objective and academically honest, you would have taken the time to read the response. You've just made yourself look illiterate, uneducated, and overzealous.
> 
> Whose being 'irrational' and 'medieval' now?
> 
> with peace,
> 
> Abdulhaqq


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## abdulhaqq

Dear Vraiblonde

For Muslims, the war on terrorism is not a war of 'defense', it is basically a civil war between moderate mainstream Muslims and a fringe minority.

Although it is unfortunately true that a good deal of Muslims happen to be terrorists, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists and condemn there actions. 

Lets not forget that it is Muslims who are fighting against Al Qaeda in Iraq and in Afghanistan and all over the world just as vigorously as non-Muslims. This war isn't about "Islam versus the West", it is about those who believe in compassion and civility as a way of life against those who don't. 


As was stated above, see the fatwa cited above that prohibits the criminal acts of terrorists who use beheadings.

In fact, please read the original post that contains a plethora of sources that condemn terrorism in any way, shape or form.

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq


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## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> As was stated above, see the fatwa cited above that prohibits the criminal acts of terrorists who use beheadings.
> 
> In fact, please read the original post that contains a plethora of sources that condemn terrorism in any way, shape or form.


If Islam forbids violence and terrorist acts, why does the Islamic leadership keep encouraging it?  And if they are, in fact, the minority, why doesn't the majority get rid of them and take their religion back?


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## dustin

Abdulhagg,

Realistically, all you're gonna do is piss people off here. I suggest spending your time elsewhere with your family or whatever else.

Peace, love, and chicken grease


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## vincenzo4

*Flying*

I am of the Italian and Irish heritiage.  There is no way I would ever endorse the terror and bloodletting of the La Cosa Nostra or The Irish Republican Army.  I have spent a life fighting their vermin.

Islaam suffers from nothing different, they do suffer from indifference, but as you see with with Prime Minister Maliki, courage is a very human endeavor and an attrribute this country has shunned.

The Demos cannot help themselves, and they are about to piss Maliki off royally.  They deserve his wrath.  This is a man whose very breath is the fantasy of every terrorist to stop.  He is very Iraqi and Islam.  The disaffection repeatedly displayed every day by Democrats has alienated someone very critical, some who deserves none of it.  They visit Baghdad, sip gourmet coffee and then fly home.  He and Ambassador Khalizad are there for the duration.

I am very, very proud of my Islammic colleague and their fight for freedom for their children and their children's children.  To abandon these people is unthinkable.

President Bush has been taken for granted, disrespected and largely made fun of without any hesitation.  Americans have a death wish, and the coming election might prove me quite correct.  





			
				vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Watch the language in the Religion forum, please.  There's no need for name-calling and profanity.
> 
> 
> There are an awful lot of fanatics in that religion.  In fact, the leaders of the religion are fanatics who encourage fanaticism.  It's kind of like saying the Democrat party is moderate, even though their leadership is decidedly Leftist - doesn't fly.
> 
> 
> That made me laugh    For someone who's trying to buck worldwide media coverage and say they're all wrong, you've got a funny way of making your point.
> 
> "We are religion of peace!  And if you don't agree, we'll chop your head off and burn your home to the ground!"


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## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> If Islam forbids violence and terrorist acts, why does the Islamic leadership keep encouraging it?  And if they are, in fact, the minority, why doesn't the majority get rid of them and take their religion back?



Dear Vraiblonde

What proof do you have that the Islamic leadership encourages terrorism? Are you aware of the sheer number of Muslim leaders and scholars who have condemned terrorism? Just because they don't get press coverage doesn't mean that they don't exist.

For example, when the unfortunate acts of violence that occurred in the wake of His Holiness, the Pope regarding Islam, almost 30 Muslim scholars wrote a carefully crafted, respectful intellectual response that stated clarifications of the  Pope's statements. This statement was signed by the Muslim world's leading scholars and it not only stated their disagreements with the pope in politeful terms, it condemned the acts of violence that occurred, especially the killing of the nun.

So when you say "the Muslim leadership", which Muslim 'leaders' are you referring to? These people are fringe elements within our communities. There are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. You cannot paint a generalization based on the actions of an extremist fringe.

Here is a copy of the Letter to the Pope  if anyone is interested in reading it.

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq


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## vraiblonde

vincenzo4 said:
			
		

> This global jihad is not at the hands of the huddled and embattled family of three trying to raise a decent family in Baghdad.


I agree with this.  But when you align yourself with a highly visible group that is making daily news for their violence, you're going to get painted with the same brush.  Especially if you don't actively condemn it.


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## Mikeinsmd

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Mikeinsmd,.


Dear camel jockey, 

I have no desire to discuss your warped religion with you or anyone else.  I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.  Deal with it! 

Yours in disgust, 

A real Patriot


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## Mikeinsmd

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> What a bunch of bigots.


When it comes to islam, I am the worlds king of bigots!!


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## Bustem' Down

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> When it comes to islam, I am the worlds king of bigots!!


Ok dude, that kinda made me laugh.


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## Bustem' Down

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I agree with this.  But when you align yourself with a highly visible group that is making daily news for their violence, you're going to get painted with the same brush.  Especially if you don't actively condemn it.


Do we paint all Catholics with the IRA brush?


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## abdulhaqq

dustin said:
			
		

> Abdulhagg,
> 
> Realistically, all you're gonna do is piss people off here. I suggest spending your time elsewhere with your family or whatever else.
> 
> Peace, love, and chicken grease



Dear Dustin

I don't see why attempting to correct stereotypes about my faith should make people angry. I'm not spreading lies or misinformation, I'm asking people to be objective and to see if their perceptions of Islam are grounded on reasonable investigatory methods or if its a result of blind fanatical hatred. 

It would be a disservice to my faith and country to not do everything within my abilities to correct such stereotypes.

As I stated above, Muslims are fighting it out in the trenches in the war on terrorism. The Iraqi death toll is estimated to be something like 665,000. The lowest estimate is 300,000. Those people are the true fighters against terrorism. 

Yet, we have some people here who have the audacity to tell such people who have given up their property and lives in fighting against terrorism that they themselves are terrorists? 

What is fanaticism if not this?

I'm not here to convert people. I'm not here to get people to say "Islam is great". I'm here to make sure that people have a proper understanding of Islam and if they want to make negative conclusions, they should at least be based on logical methods and evidence instead of blind rage and hatred. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


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## Mikeinsmd

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> *That Islam is a peaceful religion that fanatics have skewed. *  Exactly what you have been screaming for since 9/11 and all you can do is spew hate filled remarks.


That riiiight thur is funny and I dun kur who ya are...    

Please forgive my hate filled remarks.  Wait, don't forgive them because I don't care.    I have plenty more!!


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## vincenzo4

*Chicken Grease*

Thanks for the warning.  The constitution is a passion of mine, and he deserves to see his thoughts fliurish here like all of you.  Humble thineself and be grateful that you haven't lost all your family in Baghdad, and don;y have the anxiety of your tomorrows hanging on every word of those struggling to save your life while getting little support if any from home.

The soldier watches the news, they see what everyone his is doing, pulling their support and are basically disinterested.

Speak freely Abdulhagg, you deserve the same warmth of sun that me and my colleaguges lives have selfishly provided for my almost 30 years service.

Deeply I plead for perspective and justice and love and compassion.

Support us, have faith with us, love us and do not let another American life drop because of cowardice.

Abdulhagg, I am convinced you are here for the same thing.  Welcome.



			
				dustin said:
			
		

> Abdulhagg,
> 
> Realistically, all you're gonna do is piss people off here. I suggest spending your time elsewhere with your family or whatever else.
> 
> Peace, love, and chicken grease


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## Mikeinsmd

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> Ok dude, that kinda made me laugh.


See, I do have a purpose.


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## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Pete,
> 
> I'm beginning to think that you can't read. I wrote a rather extensively response immediately above your own that addressed this *exact* topic.
> 
> If you are truly objective and academically honest, you would have taken the time to read the response. You've just made yourself look illiterate, uneducated, and overzealous.
> 
> Whose being 'irrational' and 'medieval' now?
> 
> with peace,
> 
> Abdulhaqq


What about you, right here in a public forum denounce those who commit attrocities against innocent women, children and men simply because they are Jewish, Western or Christian. And call them the blood thirsty barbarians that they are.

Then explain this.



> ...whoever kills a soul - *unless for a soul[1] or for corruption [done] in the land[2]* - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And, whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." [Qur'an, 5:32]


Does "killing for a soul" include the indescriminant killing of people because they do not follow Allah?  Does it allow death warrants be issued against the likes of Van Gogh and Rushdie?  Why are they not issuing death warrants on Bin Laden, Al Zarhawi?  Why didn't they issue a death warrant on Arrafat for masterminding the murder of the Isreali atheltes in Munich?  Why are they not hunting down the leadership in Iran who spend millions to arm Hezbola so they can kill women and children?



> Among mankind is he whose speech impresses you in worldly life, and he calls Allah to witness as to what is in his heart, yet he is the fiercest of opponents. And, when he goes away, he strives throughout the land to cause corruption therein, and to destroy crops[7] and lives[8]. And Allah does not love corruption." [Qur'an, 2:204-5]


What about the hundreds and thousands of Palestinians who burned, destroyed and layed waste to Gaza when the Isrealis left in accordance with a peace deal brokered with the PLO?  What about the kidnappings?  What about the rocket attacks by Hamas from Lebanon?  These are hardly the acts of one or two misguided souls, it is organized terrorism in the name of Islam to erradicate the Jewish state.




> "Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"


If this is true the attacks from Lebanon, the attrocities commited by the Taliban, and Usama Bin Laden shouls have ALL drawn the most vocal and strongest condemnation by the leaders of Islam.  We hear nothing but whining about the design of a logo on an ice cream cone sold in Britan or a book or cartoon in a newspaper.  Where are the leaders of Islam?


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## vraiblonde

vincenzo4 said:
			
		

> Americans have a death wish, and the coming election might prove me quite correct.


Your average American isn't that much different than your average Iraqi.  They want to live their lives without threat.  If they think that electing a Democrat who will pull troops out of Islamic nations right now and stop the violence, they'll do it.  Never mind that this only encourages the terrorists because now they know what works - blow up a few things and your enemy will back down in fear.

Why do you suppose there are so many foreign Muslims in this country?  They leave their homeland to come here and live - why?

Do Americans leave the US in droves for Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, etc?  If not, why not?

Abdul, are you here in the US?  If so, why?  And what is your native country?  And why did you leave it?


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## abdulhaqq

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Dear camel jockey,
> 
> I have no desire to discuss your warped religion with you or anyone else.  I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.  Deal with it!
> 
> Yours in disgust,
> 
> A real Patriot



Dear Mikinsmd,

Ahh, the fact that you can't respond intellectually is a sign of your own weakness, not of Islam of Muslims. If you were truly capable of an intellectual refutation of Islam, you would've presented it. Instead, you've relied upon bigoted statements and irrational conclusions, even in the face of stark evidence that irresistibly refutes your claims.

If you want to look ignorant and irrational, be my guest.

However, you shouldn't dare attempt to portray your illogical hatred as being "patriotic" or "American".

Many American Muslims are just as equally patriotic. Muslims have fought in the revolutionary war, the war of 1812, the civil war, just like they are fighting in the war on terrorism.

I sincerely hope you don't advocate the mass genocide of peaceful citizens just because they are of a different faith.

Are you sure you aren't a terrorist yourself?

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


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## vraiblonde

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.


That's ignorant.  If you met Abdul in real life, you wouldn't kill him or anyone else.


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## dustin

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Dustin
> 
> I don't see why attempting to correct stereotypes about my faith should make people angry. I'm not spreading lies or misinformation, I'm asking people to be objective and to see if their perceptions of Islam are grounded on reasonable investigatory methods or if its a result of blind fanatical hatred....


 your barking up the wrong tree man

Just consider yourself warned. Dustin. Out.


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## Mikeinsmd

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> That's ignorant.  If you met Abdul in real life, you wouldn't kill him or anyone else.


I didn't say I'd kill him.  I said I have a desire to kill as many islamists as I can.  And I meant it.


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## vraiblonde

dustin said:
			
		

> your barking up the wrong tree man
> 
> Just consider yourself warned. Dustin. Out.


I disagree.  It's refreshing to have a conversation with someone with a different viewpoint.  And not some dippy liberal who doesn't know anything about it and is just talking out their rump, but someone who actually walks the walk.

Weclome to the forums, Abdul, even though I disagree with you on several points.  It's interesting to get a different take on things.


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## Mikeinsmd

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Mikinsmd, Are you sure you aren't a terrorist yourself?
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


I told you I have no desire to debate your effed up religion.  I know I what I am, do you? 

Why don't you be a good lil terrorist and answer Vrai's question now.


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## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> What about you, right here in a public forum denounce those who commit attrocities against innocent women, children and men simply because they are Jewish, Western or Christian. And call them the blood thirsty barbarians that they are.
> 
> Then explain this.
> 
> 
> Does "killing for a soul" include the indescriminant killing of people because they do not follow Allah?  Does it allow death warrants be issued against the likes of Van Gogh and Rushdie?  Why are they not issuing death warrants on Bin Laden, Al Zarhawi?  Why didn't they issue a death warrant on Arrafat for masterminding the murder of the Isreali atheltes in Munich?  Why are they not hunting down the leadership in Iran who spend millions to arm Hezbola so they can kill women and children?
> 
> What about the hundreds and thousands of Palestinians who burned, destroyed and layed waste to Gaza when the Isrealis left in accordance with a peace deal brokered with the PLO?  What about the kidnappings?  What about the rocket attacks by Hamas from Lebanon?  These are hardly the acts of one or two misguided souls, it is organized terrorism in the name of Islam to erradicate the Jewish state.
> 
> 
> If this is true the attacks from Lebanon, the attrocities commited by the Taliban, and Usama Bin Laden shouls have ALL drawn the most vocal and strongest condemnation by the leaders of Islam.  We hear nothing but whining about the design of a logo on an ice cream cone sold in Britan or a book or cartoon in a newspaper.  Where are the leaders of Islam?



Dear Pete,

Please refer to the third post which clearly and unequivocally condemned terrorism and suicide bombing and actually provided a list of sources from various Islamic texts such as the Qur'an and also contained a plethora of fatwas from Muslim jurists who have condemned terrorism.

Terrorism is barbaric, whether it is done by Palestinians, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, or Chechens. It is not about race, it is about the act. 

As I stated above, the verse that I quoted from the Qur'an has taken two interpretations for 'corruption'. There are only two exceptions to the prohibition of taking of life: the first is in criminal acts; therefore Islam sanctions capital punishment against people who are causing corruption. *As I stated above, this verse includes terrorists. Therefore, the punishment for terrorism in Islam is the death penalty Would you disagree with this or do you agree with this? I don't see what you aren't getting about this interpretation. The second exception to the prohibition of taking a life is with regards to just war. Islam permits warfare under certain conditions but, just like the Geneva Convention, places prohibition on attacking unarmed civilians and the destruction of property. Thus, the verse clearly condemns terrorism. I don't see why you're having such a hard time accepting the literal interpretation of a verse.

Also, I literally condemned terrorism in the third post. Either you haven't read it or are just choosing to ignore it. Either way, it reflects badly on your powers of observation and cognition.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq*


----------



## vraiblonde

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I didn't say I'd kill him.  I said I have a desire to kill as many islamists as I can.  And I meant it.


So you walk up to the clerk at the 7-11 and wish him harm?  Get a cab in DC and have a desire to kill your driver?  Fume when you drive past the mosque on Rt. 4?

That's just silly.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> So you walk up to the clerk at the 7-11 and wish him harm?  Get a cab in DC and have a desire to kill your driver?  Fume when you drive past the mosque on Rt. 4?
> 
> That's just silly.


Consider who you're talking to.....


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Your average American isn't that much different than your average Iraqi.  They want to live their lives without threat.  If they think that electing a Democrat who will pull troops out of Islamic nations right now and stop the violence, they'll do it.  Never mind that this only encourages the terrorists because now they know what works - blow up a few things and your enemy will back down in fear.
> 
> Why do you suppose there are so many foreign Muslims in this country?  They leave their homeland to come here and live - why?
> 
> Do Americans leave the US in droves for Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, etc?  If not, why not?
> 
> Abdul, are you here in the US?  If so, why?  And what is your native country?  And why did you leave it?



I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment that most Muslims in America are foreign. If you see the other thread I created dedicated to "Muslims in American History", you'll have to recognize the fact that although a lot of Muslims in America are immigrants, they aren't the majority.

People come to America because its a land of freedom and opportunity. I don't see a problem with people migrating here because of that.

Yes, I'm in the US, I live in Maryland and America is my native country. I was born an American, I'll live as an American, and I'll die as an American. 

With Peace

Abdulhaqq


----------



## Pete

vincenzo4 said:
			
		

> Ma Salaam my friend.  I have experienced the same dissonance with the local talent here.  They read what they want, and read into it what they desire.
> 
> I agree with your assertions of Islam.  What your religion is experiencing is a hostage taking of your faith, your home and heart by murderers.  This global jihad is not at the hands of the huddled and embattled family of three trying to raise a decent family in Baghdad.
> 
> This is nothing but another cycle of a sect of humanity who wants to rule the world and is using a religious faith to drive it on.
> 
> I know many of your faith personally who despise the bloodletting, who have lost family and friends repeatedly, and yet their courage to help with this war is courage many of these people could do well to emulate.
> 
> Vincenzo


This is a lie.  I read newspapers, I watch the video of bombed out buildings and the scattered bodies of women and children from a suicide attack, I watch video of Muslims in Egypt, Syria, and Iran cheering and dancing in the streets when the space shuttle blew up over Texas.  I see video of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl when their heads were sawn off, I watched and saw craters in an Israeli street from a Hezbollah rocket, I see the families of Israeli soldiers beg for them to be released by Hamas, I see the body counts in Baghdad when Sunni hit squads behead and leave piles of ####e bodies in alleys, I read books about how the Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians all attacked Israel several times without warning or provocation.

You will have to excuse me if I am not convinced when one person comes in heralding the "virtue" of Islam when there are daily examples that it is not the peaceful religion of tolerance he claims it to be.  

If this global jihad was not the bidding of Islam as a whole where are the leaders of Islam in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Palestine, and why are they not calling in the loudest voice possible for it to end?  Why are they not hunting down the bad actors who have "hijacked" their religion of peace?  When is the last time you have seen a cleric or a terrorist captured in an Islamic country?  

I say they are silent and sit on their hands because they not only condone it, they sponsor it, and cloaked behind the walls of their mosques they clap in glee at every attack.  I have seen no "actions" that refute my opinion, only the occasional denial with words.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> I told you I have no desire to debate your effed up religion.  I know I what I am, do you?
> 
> Why don't you be a good lil terrorist and answer Vrai's question now.



Dear Mikeinsmd

If you want to be irrational and bigoted and medieval and against reason and freedom, then go ahead and be my guest buddy.   

I'm not a terrorist just because I'm Muslim. I've condemned terrorism openly and brazenly in various articles across the country, including the Capital and the Baltimore Sun. 

Your bigoted remarks are a reflection of yourself, not me buddy. I pray that God opens your heart and mind to a more reasonable assessment of Muslims. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Terrorism is barbaric, whether it is done by Palestinians, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, or Chechens. It is not about race, it is about the act.


But, again, there's a handy little "out", isn't there?

I understand the Islamic extremists completely and they make total sense.  It's the same mindset that compels Jehovah's Witnesses to come knock at my door - they want to convert the nonbelivers to what they consider the "true" religion.  

Christian fundies think you are condemned to death if you don't believe in Jesus and live by the Bible.  Muslim fundies believe the same thing, they just want to push it along a bit.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Mikeinsmd
> 
> If you want to be irrational and bigoted and medieval and against reason and freedom, then go ahead and be my guest buddy.
> 
> I'm not a terrorist just because I'm Muslim. I've condemned terrorism openly and brazenly in various articles across the country, including the Capital and the Baltimore Sun.
> 
> Your bigoted remarks are a reflection of yourself, not me buddy. I pray that God opens your heart and mind to a more reasonable assessment of Muslims.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


You pray to who?????   Don't bother, it won't happen.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> People come to America because its a land of freedom and opportunity. I don't see a problem with people migrating here because of that.


Nor do I.  It's what the US is all about - "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" 

My dream is for those huddled masses to not _have_ to come here because their own country will be a place they can live in peace and prosperity.  I think the war in Iraq is a good start.


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> But, again, there's a handy little "out", isn't there?
> 
> I understand the Islamic extremists completely and they make total sense.  It's the same mindset that compels Jehovah's Witnesses to come knock at my door - they want to convert the nonbelivers to what they consider the "true" religion.
> 
> Christian fundies think you are condemned to death if you don't believe in Jesus and live by the Bible.  Muslim fundies believe the same thing, they just want to push it along a bit.



This is true. However, Muslim fundamentalists don't represent all Muslims. Muslim fundamentalism is, ironically, a modern movement that its foundations traced to the Muslim Brotherhood which started in Egypt and Wahhabism which started in Saudi Arabia. 

The Saudi government was put into power and payrolled by the British to fight against the Ottoman Empire during World War I. Our government's assistance in maximizing Saudi Arabia's oil economy is one of the reason why it has spread all over the world.

However, not all Wahhabis are fundamentalists and not all are terrorists. It was when Wahhabism and the Muslim Brotherhood fused that the terrorism was born. The reason why Wahhabism and the Muslim Brotherhood fused is because the Egyptian government, which was secular, began heavily prosecuting them.

The comments made by bigots in this thread are just being reguritated over and over again like a broken record. Every claim that they've made has been responded to.

Firstly, Islam itself condemnds terrorism, as is evident in one of the original posts I've made citing direct resources.

Secondly, Muslims are working their hardest in prosecuting the war on terrorism on all of its fronts. To claim that all Muslims are terrorists undermines the efforts of these brave individuals and supports the terrorists. If you truly want to defeat terrorism, then support those who fight it, especially if they are Muslim by not making asinine comments.

Thirdly, Muslim leaders and scholars are working hard on condemning terrorism. I have cited to an ample amount of texts which condemn terrorism in all of its forms. This includes a recent document that was signed by thirty prominent Muslim scholars from all over the world. 

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/online-analysis/open-letter-to-his-holiness-pope-benedict-xvi.html

With Peace,
AbdulHaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> You pray to who?????   Don't bother, it won't happen.



I pray to the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and and the God of Muhammad (peace be upon them all).


----------



## vraiblonde

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> You pray to who?????


You know Muslims believe in God, right?


----------



## forever jewel

Why is abdulhaqq is being criticized for his religious beliefs?  Its a RELIGION forum! I'm glad he brought up Islam.  I, myself, am not educated in their beliefs and its quite interesting reading his posts and learn a few of the basics. I appreciate the fact that our country was founded upon freedom of speech and that everyone can and will say what they want on this board, but give him a break.  He is allowed to wave the stars and stripes and practice Islam. He's American, that's what are country is all about! 

JMO


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete,
> 
> Please refer to the third post which clearly and unequivocally condemned terrorism and suicide bombing and actually provided a list of sources from various Islamic texts such as the Qur'an and also contained a plethora of fatwas from Muslim jurists who have condemned terrorism.
> 
> Terrorism is barbaric, whether it is done by Palestinians, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis, or Chechens. It is not about race, it is about the act.
> 
> As I stated above, the verse that I quoted from the Qur'an has taken two interpretations for 'corruption'. There are only two exceptions to the prohibition of taking of life: the first is in criminal acts; therefore Islam sanctions capital punishment against people who are causing corruption. *As I stated above, this verse includes terrorists. Therefore, the punishment for terrorism in Islam is the death penalty Would you disagree with this or do you agree with this? I don't see what you aren't getting about this interpretation. The second exception to the prohibition of taking a life is with regards to just war. Islam permits warfare under certain conditions but, just like the Geneva Convention, places prohibition on attacking unarmed civilians and the destruction of property. Thus, the verse clearly condemns terrorism. I don't see why you're having such a hard time accepting the literal interpretation of a verse.
> 
> Also, I literally condemned terrorism in the third post. Either you haven't read it or are just choosing to ignore it. Either way, it reflects badly on your powers of observation and cognition.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq*


*
First, I am totally secure in my powers of observation and cognition so you can just save your smug sanctimonious condemnation thereof.

What I am saying is I can write a 1,000,000 page book outlining how to live life but if I allow, participate, and applaud the violation of it it is nothing more than a 1,000,000 page waste of paper.

When is the last Islamic country who has captured and executed a terrorist for atrocities against the West or Jews totally of their own volition?

For something that is prohibited Muslims seem to embrace it and commit it wholesale without credible condemnation.

Why haven't the Imams in Iran and the Saudi Royal family created a force to stamp out the Taliban, Hamas and Hezbolah?*


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Nor do I.  It's what the US is all about - "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
> 
> My dream is for those huddled masses to not _have_ to come here because their own country will be a place they can live in peace and prosperity.  I think the war in Iraq is a good start.



Dear Vraiblonde

I agree with your assesment. Their is something about America which is beautiful and inspiring. Its a beacon for the whole world to see and to inspire to imitate. Even if the whole world will become like America, it won't ever be as good. 

I also agree with your assesment on the war on Iraq. I think we need to stay the course and finish the job while minimizing harm to our troops. If we don't finish what we've started there, then Iraq will end up becoming like Afghanistan and Iraq might see the rise of its own "Taliban" and all of the sacrifices our troops have made will be in vain.

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> However, Muslim fundamentalists don't represent all Muslims.


I'm sure they don't, anymore than Fred Phelps represents all Christians.  But Muslim fundies pose a very real threat to Americans, Israelis and just about anyone else who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs.

And Christians actively condemn Fred Phelps every chance they get.  You can see numerous threads on here to prove it, or you can just look at Phelps' news coverage.  I don't see that same outcry from your average Muslim.

Even you came on here to defend your religion, not condemn those who have hijacked it.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> First, I am totally secure in my powers of observation and cognition so you can just save your smug sanctimonious condemnation thereof.
> 
> What I am saying is I can write a 1,000,000 page book outlining how to live life but if I allow, participate, and applaud the violation of it it is nothing more than a 1,000,000 page waste of paper.
> 
> When is the last Islamic country who has captured and executed a terrorist for atrocities against the West or Jews totally of their own volition?
> 
> For something that is prohibited Muslims seem to embrace it and commit it wholesale without credible condemnation.
> 
> Why haven't the Imams in Iran and the Saudi Royal family created a force to stamp out the Taliban, Hamas and Hezbolah?



Dear Pete,

If you want me to treat you like an adult, then behave like one. If you want to look like a fool and throw temper tantrums just because someone expresses a belief or idea different from what you were raised with, then be my guest. However, don't expect to be respected as a rational autonomous agent when you do so. If you want me to respect you as a person, then you need to respect me as a person. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but you should agree that I have the right to say it since these rights are preserved by the Constitution. Even though what you are espousing is essentially hate speech, my dear friend, I would fight to the death to preserve your right to say it. At this point, I would like to confess that I'm a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. (please don't kill me!). I love freedom probably more than most people on this forum would be comfortable with swallowing. 

I'm not sure how up to date you are on the headlines, but different Muslim countries have contributed. If you recall back in the day, Iran offered to provide assistance to Americans in the war on Terrorism. In Pakistan, top leading Al Qaeda officials were captured through the assistance of Pakistani military intelligence and army officials. In Pakistan, the war on terrorism is a low-level civil war. Everyday, Pakistani soldiers come home in body bags as they fight against people who support terrorism. In Saudi Arabia and Yemen, there were several shoot outs where terrorists were killed. Syria has been working along with the US and Canada.

All of those guys at Guantanamo Bay were captured with the assistance of Muslim leaders and countries. I don't buy your argument that Muslim governments aren't doing enough. They are trying their hardest and to say that they haven't done anything is a disservice to those who have fought and died to prosecute terrorists all over the world. We shouldn't make a distinction between such brave soldiers whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim, American or Arab or Pakistani. People all over the world are combatting the evil of terrorism. We need to support them. It undermines their credibility when you say that they haven't done anything and this is something that terrorists feed on. 

As I stated repeatedly, there are hundreds of documents on the internet that clearly show the sheer size of Muslim leaders and scholars who have condemned terrorism and have taken active steps in prosecuting it.

If you like, we can create an entirely separate thread that highlights the efforts of such indivduals. Here is an example of one such person:

[URL='Devout Muslim' informer aided in Toronto conspiracy arrests]Devout Muslim Informer Aided in Toronto Terror Arrests[/URL] 

Just because its covert and we don't hear about it doesn't mean that no Muslims are doing anything to combat terrorism.

I honestly didn't expect this much hostility to the Muslim faith on these forums. 

With Peace
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Pete said:
			
		

> First, I am totally secure in my powers of observation and cognition so you can just save your smug sanctimonious condemnation thereof.
> 
> What I am saying is I can write a 1,000,000 page book outlining how to live life but if I allow, participate, and applaud the violation of it it is nothing more than a 1,000,000 page waste of paper.
> 
> When is the last Islamic country who has captured and executed a terrorist for atrocities against the West or Jews totally of their own volition?
> 
> For something that is prohibited Muslims seem to embrace it and commit it wholesale without credible condemnation.
> 
> *Why haven't the Imams in Iran and the Saudi Royal family created a force to stamp out the Taliban, Hamas and Hezbolah?*


And interfere with their attempts to procure the nuclear weapons that would be used to ensure the continued existance of their "peaceful" religion??? Surely you jest!!


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> I think we need to stay the course and finish the job while minimizing harm to our troops. If we don't finish what we've started there, then Iraq will end up becoming like Afghanistan and Iraq might see the rise of its own "Taliban" and all of the sacrifices our troops have made will be in vain.


I completely agree with this and it's heartening to hear a Muslim say so.  We don't get a lot of that from the mainstream media in this country.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> I honestly didn't expect this much hostility to the Muslim faith on these forums.


Really?  Considering the news coverage we're fed on a daily basis?  You're an American and I assume you watch CNN, Fox, ABC, etc.  Certainly you've seen that the vast majority of the stories portray Muslims in an unflattering light.


----------



## Agee

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> . Their is something about America which is beautiful and inspiring.
> 
> Its a beacon for the whole world to see and to inspire to imitate. Even if the whole world will become like America, it won't ever be as good.


 
Unfortuately, "our beacon", while full of promising ideals, is not something the whole world needs to imitate. Many parts of the world need to focus on growing the core cultures of their people and eliminate the heathens that threaten to tear these cultures down...  

just my 2 cents


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I'm sure they don't, anymore than Fred Phelps represents all Christians.  But Muslim fundies pose a very real threat to Americans, Israelis and just about anyone else who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs.
> 
> And Christians actively condemn Fred Phelps every chance they get.  You can see numerous threads on here to prove it, or you can just look at Phelps' news coverage.  I don't see that same outcry from your average Muslim.
> 
> Even you came on here to defend your religion, not condemn those who have hijacked it.



Dear vraiblonde

I agree that Muslims pose a real threat to Americans and Israelis, but they also pose a greater threat to Muslims as well. If you look at Iraq, the number of people who have died in sectarian fighting is over 600,000! Iraq is the frontline between mainstream Islam and Muslim terrorists. Again, I'd like to make a distinction between Muslim fundamentalists and terrorists. There are peaceful Muslim fundamentalists that are just like the amish. They want to be left alone in their own insular communities and practice their faith in peace. These people are a minority. However, within this fringe is another fringe who want to impose their warped view of the Islamic faith on other Muslims. These people are terrorists. Its a subtle distinction. 

I'm surprised you aren't aware of how many Muslims all accross the world have been condemning and prosecuting terrorism. As I stated above, their was a recent document that was written as a response to the Pope's comments regarding Islam. This document was a peaceful intellectual disagreement with His Holiness the Pope and was signed by 30 leading Muslim scholars from all over the world including America, Canada, Britain, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, India, etc. Within the same document, these scholars had an unequivocal condemnation of terrorism and the unfortunate killing of the nun in Somalia. How much press coverage did it get? Zero. Why didn't any media outlets report it? I have no idea. 

Just because you havent' seen Muslims condemn terrorism doesn't mean that they don't condemn it. I personally wrote articles in several newspapers including the Capital, the Baltimore Sun, and my college newspaper with regards to terrorism. Either most people chose to ignore it or it didn't get that much coverage. 

In the original few posts, I quoted several responses by scholars who condemned terrorists. These aren't minor figures, but major figures within the Muslim world. 

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> And interfere with their attempts to procure the nuclear weapons that would be used to ensure the continued existance of their "peaceful" religion??? Surely you jest!!



Dear Mikeinsmd

Actually, the use of nuclear weapons is prohibited in Islam.

Even the Shi'is in Iran historically have prohibited its use . . . until recently. I'm not sure what the ruling by Iraqi Shi'i scholars is. Most Sunni scholars also condemn the use of nuclear weapons. 

With Peace
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Really?  Considering the news coverage we're fed on a daily basis?  You're an American and I assume you watch CNN, Fox, ABC, etc.  Certainly you've seen that the vast majority of the stories portray Muslims in an unflattering light.



Dear Vraiblonde

Thats true. However, when Muslims do something positive, such as winning the noble peace prize  it doesn't get much coverage for some reason.

When Muslims get shot or killed because of hate crimes, that also doesn't get media coverage. I don't see enough of my fellow Americans condemning this sort of behavior. Comments made in this forum such as "I want to kill all of you" are a chilling reminder that we might have some work to do of our own in ensuring peace prevails. 

Why does the media not report this sort of content? I dont think its because of a bias. I think it has more to do with 'supply and demand'. Violence, like sex, sells. People wanna hear gory stories as opposed to uplifting and motivating ones.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Thats true. However, when Muslims do something positive, such as winning the noble peace prize  it doesn't get much coverage for some reason.


Yasser Arafat won a Nobel Peace Prize.  It doesn't mean a lot to most Americans and is fairly worthless.


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Yasser Arafat won a Nobel Peace Prize.  It doesn't mean a lot to most Americans and is fairly worthless.



Dear Vraiblonde

Thats true, but Mohammad Yunus took millions of his countrymen out of poverty. That seems pretty fairly valuable to me. If Yasser Arafat farts, the whole world knows about it. A Muslim economist from Bangladesh takes millions out of poverty, and nobody gives a damn.

Its about supply and demand.

With Peace
Abdulhaqq


----------



## punjabigyrl

Abdulhaqq, I applaud you for coming into the forum and talking about the misconceptions Islam and the muslims get in the media. I really wish there was a way to get the news media to talk more about the condenmnation of terrororism, the war other muslims are fight to rid of the terrorist, etc. It is ashame that not that many americans know how muslims are fighting islamic fundamentalists.
Wassalaam.


----------



## punjabigyrl

I was also wondering with a degree in criminal justice. We all know that the FBI, CIA,and NSA monitor all chat sites on the internet. So with MIKEINSMD claiming that he would like to kill all muslims or wishes. I bet my house that they will monitor him under the partiotic act. Afterall, that is an act of terrorism....right?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> Abdulhaqq, I applaud you for coming into the forum and talking about the misconceptions Islam and the muslims get in the media. I really wish there was a way to get the news media to talk more about the condenmnation of terrororism, the war other muslims are fight to rid of the terrorist, etc. It is ashame that not that many americans know how muslims are fighting islamic fundamentalists.
> Wassalaam.


  Misconceptions??  Yea, 9/11 never happened.  Just something Bush dreamed up so he could attack Iraq. 

We also see the uprising of muslims all around the world against terrorism.   I guess the MSM forgot to report on that huh??


----------



## vraiblonde

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> Afterall, that is an act of terrorism....right?




I hope they would take it as a bombastic statement, not a true desire to kill anyone.

Although (and let me just make a point here) the way Islamics scream and threaten death to anyone who so much as pokes fun at them in a cartoon or has a corporate logo that they think looks like Allah, Mike may be in some danger after all.


----------



## punjabigyrl

My statement*NEVER* said that 9/11 never happened I just said that not that much media coverage is given to the muslims fighting terrorism.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Mikeinsmd
> 
> PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.


A "law student" giving me advice....     You are not qualified to advise on anything.  

Why don't you go file a complaint and come after me.  I suggest you study a lil harder in school Mr. lawyer wannabe.  

In fact, I've been wanting a 9mm Glock.  I think I will go purchase one tomorrow.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> My statement*NEVER* said that 9/11 never happened I just said that not that much media coverage is given to the muslims fighting terrorism.


Ummmmmm....that's because the media is swamped covering terrorist acts caused by muslims.... imagine that!!


----------



## vraiblonde

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> I really wish there was a way to get the news media to talk more about the condenmnation of terrororism, the war other muslims are fight to rid of the terrorist, etc.


HEY!  I know!  Contact CAIR!

Oh...wait.  They seem to be more interested in ferreting out real or imagined slights than denouncing their religion-mates who propagate such poor relations.


----------



## punjabigyrl

I agree with you vrai however, when I see those people that go on TV and kill a nun are people who are the little minority that are uneducated, traditional fools that don't know rhyme or reason.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> I was also wondering with a degree in criminal justice. We all know that the FBI, CIA,and NSA monitor all chat sites on the internet. So with MIKEINSMD claiming that he would like to kill all muslims or wishes. I bet my house that they will monitor him under the partiotic act. Afterall, that is an act of terrorism....right?


Oh boy I'm skeered now!!    Another lawyer wannabe quoting law.  

I think you should contact Homeland Security right away!!!!  I'm scheduled to take my 757 up for a sys funct. flight later this evening. 

BTW, I'll take your bet!!!!


----------



## vraiblonde

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> I agree with you vrai however, when I see those people that go on TV and kill a nun are people who are the little minority that are uneducated, traditional fools that don't know rhyme or reason.


But you have to admit, they make a BIG statement.


----------



## punjabigyrl

Guess working with the intelligence community....yeah I will file a complaint.....


----------



## Mikeinsmd

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Although (and let me just make a point here) the way Islamics scream and threaten death to anyone who so much as pokes fun at them in a cartoon or has a corporate logo that they think looks like Allah, Mike may be in some danger after all.


Bring on the camel jockeys!!!  I'm ready!!  I'm a gratuate of the Pingrr skool of Ninjarism!!!  I'll get Mainman & kick the towels off their heads!!


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> Guess working with the intelligence community....yeah I will file a complaint.....


You and "intelligence" should not be used in the same sentence.....ever.


----------



## MMDad

Bustem' Down said:
			
		

> Do we paint all Catholics with the IRA brush?


I will consider all Catholic priests to be potential pedophiles until they clean house by taking meaningful action.

Likewise, I will not consider Islam to be a peaceful religion until Muslims take action against the factions that give them a bad name.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> Guess working with the intelligence community....yeah I will file a complaint.....


Hey, I have some buddies in the Secret Service.  Want me to get them in touch with ya??


----------



## juggy4805

Mikesinmd I agree with you partly but as adults posting on an adult forum you sound really childish in your statements. I'm not disagreeing with you mike but the way you are talking seems that GWB should just nuke everyone. 


Do you feel that will solve everything?


----------



## juggy4805

MMDad said:
			
		

> I will consider all Catholic priests to be potential pedophiles until they clean house by taking meaningful action.
> 
> Likewise, I will not consider Islam to be a peaceful religion until Muslims take action against the factions that give them a bad name.




With that statement do you think all white people commit white collar crimes. All black people sell drugs. All mexicans are illegal aliens. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> Mikesinmd I agree with you partly but as adults posting on an adult forum you sound really childish in your statements. I'm not disagreeing with you mike but the way you are talking seems that GWB should just nuke everyone. Do you feel that will solve everything?


Ok, how in the HELL did you infer from my posts that GWB should nuke the world???    

If you find it childish that I hate a religion that condones and practices terrorism, and am willing to openly complain about it, then I present that YOU are too childish to grasp reality.  

You see Jugg, I say what most are thinking.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete,
> 
> If you want me to treat you like an adult, then behave like one. If you want to look like a fool and throw temper tantrums just because someone expresses a belief or idea different from what you were raised with, then be my guest. However, don't expect to be respected as a rational autonomous agent when you do so. If you want me to respect you as a person, then you need to respect me as a person. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but you should agree that I have the right to say it since these rights are preserved by the Constitution. Even though what you are espousing is essentially hate speech, my dear friend, I would fight to the death to preserve your right to say it. At this point, I would like to confess that I'm a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. (please don't kill me!). I love freedom probably more than most people on this forum would be comfortable with swallowing.


Why with the ad hominem retorts?  Where have I said you could not speak?  Where have I attacked you personally?  Called you a child or a fool?  I did use sarcasm and I did provide numerous examples of what I believe are Muslim attacks against the West and Jews that have been supported, financed and condoned by Muslim leaders and Muslim governments.  I suppose by daring to disagree you feel the justification to call me a fool, a bigot and claim I am putting forth "hate".  I don't hate muslims, as a matter of fact if I saw Mike beating up a clerk at 7-11 I would be the first one to stop him. 

 I am a simple person in the grand scheme of things.  I judge things and people by their actions, not their words.  If Christian fundamentalists were bombing mosques, beheading Muslims, blowing up Hash parlors in Saudi Arabia I would be outraged and hold them in contempt just as I do Muslim radicals.  If the leaders of the Christian world did not condemn them and take strong action to stop them, take positive steps to teach tolerance and denounce violence in the most public way  I would then  hold the entire group in the same contempt.



> I'm not sure how up to date you are on the headlines, but different Muslim countries have contributed. If you recall back in the day, Iran offered to provide assistance to Americans in the war on Terrorism. In Pakistan, top leading Al Qaeda officials were captured through the assistance of Pakistani military intelligence and army officials. In Pakistan, the war on terrorism is a low-level civil war. Everyday, Pakistani soldiers come home in body bags as they fight against people who support terrorism. In Saudi Arabia and Yemen, there were several shoot outs where terrorists were killed. Syria has been working along with the US and Canada.


Syria, quite possibly the #1 exporter of terror helping? Surely you jest.  I applaud the Pakistani contribution to the war on terror but it is hardly done without expectation of reward.  Pakistan is acting only for their benefit just as Yemen did after the Cole bombing.  Pakistan is locked in a long running feud with India over Kashmir and helping us gets them gain 1. The US as an ally, 2. Financial and military aide in the form of hardware, 3. We did not invade them as well and depose their leaders.  These countries, Iran included know there are terrorist organizations operating in their borders yet they do nothing until after they strike.  Not exactly a unilateral move against terror for the sake of right, but more for the money.




> All of those guys at Guantanamo Bay were captured with the assistance of Muslim leaders and countries. I don't buy your argument that Muslim governments aren't doing enough. They are trying their hardest and to say that they haven't done anything is a disservice to those who have fought and died to prosecute terrorists all over the world. We shouldn't make a distinction between such brave soldiers whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim, American or Arab or Pakistani. People all over the world are combating the evil of terrorism. We need to support them. It undermines their credibility when you say that they haven't done anything and this is something that terrorists feed on.


 Partially right, all those guys in Getmo were captured "IN" Muslim country, training, staging and operating in full view of the Muslim world untouched, undisturbed and undeterred.  They did this for years all along bombing buses, pizza parlors, embassies, Marine barracks and innocent civilians.  Only when they overstepped and attacked the US and caused total horror did they move ONLY because they fear reprisals because America had finally had enough.

You want me to show distinction to Syrians who you claim are helping in the war on terror when they assassinate the former prime minister of Lebanon who wanted their occupation forces out?  The same Syrians who protect and funnel arms to Hezbollah so they can lob unguided rockets into an Israeli city?  Pakistani soldiers who look the other way while terror organizations export opium by the ton to pollute the cities of the West and use the financial gains to make diabolical plans of new and more spectacular ways to kill "the infidel"?  I believe you will be waiting a long time for that.



> As I stated repeatedly, there are hundreds of documents on the internet that clearly show the sheer size of Muslim leaders and scholars who have condemned terrorism and have taken active steps in prosecuting it.


There are hundreds of posts on this forum that say I am the greatest man on the planet, but it does not make it true.  We are beyond words, actions, clear decisive actions are what is needed now.


> If you like, we can create an entirely separate thread that highlights the efforts of such individuals. Here is an example of one such person:
> 
> [URL='Devout Muslim' informer aided in Toronto conspiracy arrests]Devout Muslim Informer Aided in Toronto Terror Arrests[/URL]
> 
> Just because its covert and we don't hear about it doesn't mean that no Muslims are doing anything to combat terrorism.


You cannot point to anonymous informers,  I want to see the highest ranking Imams and Mullah's go on Al Jazeera and preach day in and day out to stop killing.  I want them to urge everyday Palestinians to stop sending their children into crowded bus stations with C4 and blowing themselves and helpless civilians up.  I want to hear them tell everyday Muslims there are no 40 virgins in heaven waiting for them if they kill an Jew, in fact they are going to hell.  I want to hear them tell everyday Muslims to turn in terrorists even if it is a relative.  I want to hear them tell the Lebanese Prime Minister and Assad in Syria to stop the silly madness in trying to eradicate Israel.  None of which I have heard or seen.



> I honestly didn't expect this much hostility to the Muslim faith on these forums.
> 
> With Peace
> Abdulhaqq


Well I didn't expect ad hominem attacks simply because I didn't bust out a prayer rug and face Mecca either so I guess we will both be disappointed.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> With that statement do you think all white people commit white collar crimes. All black people sell drugs. All mexicans are illegal aliens. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.


Jugg, your thinking is a lil skewed here.  

He is saying that until these groups stand up and condem and stop what their peers are doing, they condone it. I happen to wholeheartedly agree with this philosophy.

Lets let the 2 lawyer wannabe's chime in here. I deal with construction law everyday and there is a law that says if an entity remains silent on an issue, then they accept the results of that issue.  

In laymans terms, If I send in an RFI (Request for Information) stating that "the drawings do not specify a color for receptacles, therefore, I am installing white", and the Contractor does not respond, they remained "silent" on this issue and have no recourse if the owner wanted a different color.

So by the masses remaining "silent" means they do not object to the actions of the terrorists.


----------



## juggy4805

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Ok, how in the HELL did you infer from my posts that GWB should nuke the world???
> 
> If you find it childish that I hate a religion that condones and practices terrorism, and am willing to openly complain about it, then I present that YOU are too childish to grasp reality.
> 
> You see Jugg, I say what most are thinking.




Thats the only way to kill all of them.


----------



## juggy4805

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Jugg, your thinking is a lil skewed here.
> 
> He is saying that until these groups stand up and condem and stop what their peers are doing, his opinion is that they condone it. I happen to wholeheartedly agree with this philosophy.




How do Muslims do that if they live here?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> How do Muslims do that if they live here?


Funny how all the illegals find ways to make thier voices heard here huh??

This isn't about the ones that live here.  It's about the entire world.  Every muslim country should condem and put a stop to it unless of course they condone it (which they do).


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Pete said:
			
		

> I don't hate muslims, as a matter of fact if I saw Mike beating up a clerk at 7-11 I would be the first one to stop him.


For the record, I don't beat up 7-11 clerks (unless they short change me).


----------



## juggy4805

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Funny how all the illegals find ways to make thier voices heard here huh??
> 
> This isn't about the ones that live here.  It's about the entire world.  Every muslim country should condem and put a stop to it unless of course they condone it (which they do).




Just like you said it isn't about the ones that live here. I am assuming that the poster who started this thread lives here and isn't a terrorist. Why can't he be free of harrasment and allowed to practice his religion?


----------



## Fishn Guy

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> Just like you said it isn't about the ones that live here. I am assuming that the poster who started this thread lives here and isn't a terrorist. Why can't he be free of harrasment and allowed to practice his religion?


Cause hes a terrorist.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> Just like you said it isn't about the ones that live here. I am assuming that the poster who started this thread lives here and isn't a terrorist. Why can't he be free of harrasment and allowed to practice his religion?


Who is preventing him from practicing his religion?

And as far as harrassment, he chose to come in here with his opinion and I responded with mine. Let him deal with it.  He's holding his own (even though he made me laugh with the legal mumbo jumbo).   

You try defending a religion to a country who was attacked by that religion without expecting harassment, you're not very smart.


----------



## juggy4805

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> Who is preventing him from practicing his religion?
> 
> And as far as harrassment, he chose to come in here with his opinion and I responded with mine. Let him deal with it.  He's holding his own (even though he made me laugh with the legal mumbo jumbo).
> 
> You try defending a religion to a country who was attacked by that religion without expecting harassment, you're not very smart.




Nobody is preventing him. Was it the religion that attacked this country or terrorists that happen to follow that religion?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> Nobody is preventing him. Was it the religion that attacked this country or terrorists that happen to follow that religion?


You asked: "Why can't he be free of harrasment and allowed to practice his religion?" 

I should have worded my response to say they attacked us based on their religious interpretations and beliefs.

I know you're not sposed to answer a question with a question but oh well.... 

What was their premise for attacking us?  

What name did they use and what chants were they praying as they sawed through Nick Berg's neck? As they approached World Trade I and II??  I could go on but I think the point is made.


----------



## juggy4805

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> You asked: "Why can't he be free of harrasment and allowed to practice his religion?"
> 
> I know you're not sposed to answer a question with a question but oh well....
> 
> What was their premise for attacking us?
> 
> What name did they use and what chants were they praying as they sawed through Nick Berg's neck? I could go on but I think the point is made.




Good point. I personally don't relate muslims who are citizens of this country to muslims in that part of the world.


----------



## MMDad

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> With that statement do you think all white people commit white collar crimes. All black people sell drugs. All mexicans are illegal aliens. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.


 White people do take meaningful action against white collar crime. Black people do take meaningful action against drug dealers. Therefore I won't lump either of those groups.

Whenever anyone tries to curb illegal immigration Latino groups object. As long as they oppose meaningful action, I will continue to believe that Latinos are part of the problem.

I grew up as a Mormon. They are stereotyped as polygamists because it is part of their past. There are also Mormons who are still polygamists, but no meaningful action is taken to stop them. Since their fellow Mormons do not take action to stop them, they are condoning their polygamy, which means all Mormons deserve the stereotype.

Same thing with Islam. You can tell me that Islam is peaceful all day long, but until they clean their own house I see no reason to beleive it.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> Good point. I personally don't relate muslims who are citizens of this country to muslims in that part of the world.


I don't either but it would do them a world of good if they became very vocal on where they stood on these acts.  So far I haven't heard anything except what abdulhaqq has come in here with his arrogant ass preaching.  And I'm not buying it.   That's not good enough.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> Guess working with the intelligence community....yeah I will file a complaint.....


You just make sure your bosses pencils are sharpened and all the filing is done Monday morning, K?


----------



## MMDad

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> You just make sure your bosses pencils are sharpened and all the filing is done Monday morning, K?


 You'd think that working in the intelligence community, some intelligence might rub off onto her. Guess not. :shrug:


----------



## Kyle

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> These are also unsubstantiated claims with absolutely no proof. Only a person of complete ignorance of Islam would make such weak and pathetic claims. I wouldn't be surprised if you've never even explored Islamic theology or jurisprudence at all and base almost all of your opinions on xenophobic, racist, and biased sources. ....




Who let Baghdad Bob in here? 

<img src="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:bkdi47hQA3y0iM:http://dunamai.com/Humor/BagdadBob/images/bagdad_bob_large.gif"/>


----------



## Mikeinsmd

MMDad said:
			
		

> You'd think that working in the intelligence community, some intelligence might rub off onto her. Guess not. :shrug:


Oh she blew her credibility when she posted that the economy has been declining and it's W's fault.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Kyle said:
			
		

> Who let Baghdad Bob in here?
> 
> <img src="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:bkdi47hQA3y0iM:http://dunamai.com/Humor/BagdadBob/images/bagdad_bob_large.gif"/>


OMFG!!!  I was gonna post that earlier!!    

The sky is blue.....

is not
is too 
is not 
is too
is not 
is too
is not
is too 
is not 
is too
is not 
is too
is not
is too 
is not 
is too
is not 
is too


----------



## Toxick

Well this was certainly a delightful thread.

I got through about 2 and a half pages worth of unprovoked namecalling and fingerpointing.


I am happy to make note, however, that the disrespectful banter and outright bigotry was not (at least up through the part I read) displayed by the people typically considered to be the evengelical fundamentalist christians and Jesus-freaks..


You know - the loudmouth zealots who persecute anyone who dares discuss anything besides Christianity in the Religion Forum.


----------



## Kain99

You guys have no idea how much pain, this subject has caused me.  I think my hatred truly ran deeper than I can even describe.  

However, over the past year and a half I have been exposed to more American Muslims than I ever imagined.  They are thick in the healthcare industry.

I love some of these women.  As if they were not associated.

It's been a very disconcerting time.

I think that bottom line... I have come to understand, that my hatred may have been misguided and in the end, it only hurt me.


----------



## aosmiles

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Mikeinsmd
> 
> If you want to be irrational and bigoted and medieval and against reason and freedom, then go ahead and be my guest buddy.
> 
> I'm not a terrorist just because I'm Muslim. I've condemned terrorism openly and brazenly in various articles across the country, including the Capital and the Baltimore Sun.
> 
> Your bigoted remarks are a reflection of yourself, not me buddy. I pray that God opens your heart and mind to a more reasonable assessment of Muslims.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq
> 
> PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.


 Dear Abudlhaqq:

You sign "with peace," yet do you have any idea what peace is? How can you call people "irrational" "uneducated" and "bigoted" and yet sign your posts "with peace"? That is a complete contradiction-you are building up strife and discontent so there can be no peace. Generally speaking, telling people in not so many words that they are stupid is not a good way to make friends in the forum...but then again, people are pretty good at throwing that right back at you.

As a note, since you are just a law student, you can't give advice or YOU run the risk of unauthorized practice of law and all the problems that that entails. So, watch what kind of advice you hand out.


----------



## Kain99

Do I still see these women strapping on bombs to kill me?  Honestly, Yes.  

I'm working on it.


----------



## itsbob

juggy4805 said:
			
		

> Just like you said it isn't about the ones that live here. I am assuming that the poster who started this thread lives here and isn't a terrorist. Why can't he be free of harrasment and allowed to practice his religion?


Becasue in this country the Muslim imam takes advantage of the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech that is afforded to everyone.. They can sit in front of their temples and being the "holy one" in the room. fire up the crowd with their hate speech, and their anti-Jew diatribe without any repercussions from the government or private citizens.

NOW if ALL terrorists are Muslim. (NOT all Muslims being terrorists) wouldn't it make sense to watch and listen to Muslim temples.. but it was the MUSLIMS that complained the loudest that they were being "profiled" instead of offering help, they offered ways to make it more difficult to catch the terrorists.. but of course if I were Muslim I guess I too would think the best way to catch a Muslim terrorist would be to watch a 7th Day Adventist church instead of them.   

So if you are Muslim, but not a terrorist, put your money where your mouth is.. Open up your temples, go to the Government and promise openess, give us the names of the people in the temple full of hate, trying to raise money for the terrorist groups.. and don't tell me they aren't there, we know they are.. Put up or shut up!!


----------



## itsbob

aosmiles said:
			
		

> Dear Abudlhaqq:
> 
> You sign "with peace," yet do you have any idea what peace is? How can you call people "irrational" "uneducated" and "bigoted" and yet sign your posts "with peace"? That is a complete contradiction-you are building up strife and discontent so there can be no peace. Generally speaking, telling people in not so many words that they are stupid is not a good way to make friends in the forum...but then again, people are pretty good at throwing that right back at you.
> 
> As a note, since you are just a law student, you can't give advice or YOU run the risk of unauthorized practice of law and all the problems that that entails. So, watch what kind of advice you hand out.


Peace is when they can live amongst a world population of Muslims, without the infidel.. the Christian or the  Jew.. to interfere with their ways of life..


----------



## Kain99

itsbob said:
			
		

> Peace is when they can live amongst a world population of Muslims, without the infidel.. the Christian or the  Jew.. to interfere with their ways of life..


And that... Is the issue.  We are infidels.  Can't deny that.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> I pray to the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and and the God of Muhammad (peace be upon them all).


Then why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated? After all, the Jews also worship the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses.

I am a Christian and I also worship God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses. I also know that Jesus is God come as man for the forgiveness of all mankind's sins as the ultimate loving gift of the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses. I know that Jesus lives and that the Holy Spirit of God lives within me. I don't pray five times a day; I pray so often I do not count. I believe in one God that is completely able to manifest Himself in any way at any time He chooses. God, Y'howah, is One, is omnipotent, is omnipresent, is limitless. It is only humans that try to place human limits on God, but God is not limited in any way.

Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries? It seems the majority of Islam does not practice the tolerance you proclaim.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> ... You don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but you should agree that I have the right to say it since these rights are preserved by the Constitution. Even though what you are espousing is essentially hate speech, my dear friend, I would fight to the death to preserve your right to say it. At this point, I would like to confess that I'm a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. ...


If you know the Constitution, then you should know that there is no such thing as hate speech. It is just a political way of dividing people. The Constitution does not say that calling someone a name, even one that is considered racial, is prohibited in any way. Matter of fact it guarantees that citizens have the right to speak as they will. It is the over stepping and ignoring of Constitutional authority by legislators and judges that have created "hate speech."

The ACLU is one of the sorriest organizations in my opinion. It has a great name, but in general, it acts to limit true liberty and obfuscate and circumvent the true meaning of the Constitution.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> .... In Pakistan, top leading Al Qaeda officials were captured through the assistance of Pakistani military intelligence and army officials. In Pakistan, the war on terrorism is a low-level civil war. Everyday, Pakistani soldiers come home in body bags as they fight against people who support terrorism. In Saudi Arabia and Yemen, there were several shoot outs where terrorists were killed. Syria has been working along with the US and Canada.
> 
> All of those guys at Guantanamo Bay were captured with the assistance of Muslim leaders and countries. I don't buy your argument that Muslim governments aren't doing enough. They are trying their hardest and to say that they haven't done anything is a disservice to those who have fought and died to prosecute terrorists all over the world. ....


Islamic countries may in deed be doing as you say, but they are not public about it with few exceptions. If all the leaders of all the Muslim countries took a constant, consistent, public stand against terror and against the destruction of Israel and against the attacks on Jews, Americans, Christians, and other non-Muslims, and proclaimed that Al Qaeda, Hamas, and every organization that participated in any terrorist activities are illegal and not welcome in their countries and followed through with actions to mirror their words, then they would be doing all they could. As it stands, I think they are giving lip service and minimal follow through.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> ...
> When Muslims get shot or killed because of hate crimes, that also doesn't get media coverage. ...


Again. No such thing as "hate crime." No crime is a "love crime." Crime is crime. Murder is murder. Isn't strange how it is a "hate crime" when a white kills a black but it is not a "hate crime' when a black kills a white? Isn't each as heinous?


----------



## 2ndAmendment

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> I was also wondering with a degree in criminal justice. We all know that the FBI, CIA,and NSA monitor all chat sites on the internet. So with MIKEINSMD claiming that he would like to kill all muslims or wishes. I bet my house that they will monitor him under the partiotic act. *Afterall, that is an act of terrorism....right?*


No. It is an Internet persona blowing steam.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> And that... Is the issue.  We are infidels.  Can't deny that.


And as infidels, it can be said that we corrupt the land. 





> ...whoever kills a soul - unless for a soul[1] or for corruption [done] in the land[2] - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And, whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." [Qur'an, 5:32]


 So by this verse and being infidels that corrupt the land, i guess it is OK for Muslims to kill us according to the Qur'an.


----------



## tikipirate

From one of Abdul's first postings...

"Here I am, an American Muslim whose father served in Vietnam condemning terrorism..."

So let's not keep calling the man a towelhead. Please?

He could be Arab-American, Iraqi-American, Iranian-American or African-American. (And, yes, Americans should be Americans. The hyphen divides.)

I see Abdul defending his faith, but not the power grab that defines SouthWest Asia. Similar to how I admire Judaism, but frown upon Israeli military actions.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear All, 

I'm surprised that the same subjects have been re-iterated over and over again.
For the sake of clarity allow me to review some of the points I've made:

1. Islam is not the same thing as terrorism. In the original few posts, I quoted references from Islamic texts such as the Qur'an which clearly condemned terrorism.
See Post 4. 


2. Although it is true that their are radical Muslims who preach hate, their are members in the international Muslim community who have openly disassociated themselves from the actions of these people. I've posted various documents by scholars who condemn terrorism. Furthermore, their are Muslims all over the world who are actively working in combatting terrorism, whether they are scholars, leaders of governments, translators, or covert operatives.
See Post 18. 
Muslim Informer Uncovers Terror Ring 

3. With regards to the claims that I'm engaging in ad hominem attacks, this is a completely pathetic attempt to smear the point I was making. I did not say 'people are stupid if they don't accept islam'. I'm not here to proselytize people, I'm here to dispel misconceptions that people have about my religion and it seems like I have a lot of work to do. The reason I spoke to some people in a seemingly condescending manner was because they kept regurgitating the same flawed arguments that have already been addressed. They were making comments that had been directly addressed in a previous post so I concluded that they were either not reading properly or not properly assimilating all of the information. 

As I've stated, I have personally written letters in various newspapers including the Capital, the Baltimore Sun, and my undergraduate university condemning terrorism. The war on terrorism isnt about just one country or religion or people, its a global mission. It involves people at every level of society. To claim that Muslims who are working hard to combat terrorism arent doing their job is undermining their credibility and giving support to terrorists. So if you love terrorism, then by all means, continue with your xenophobic uneducated rants. President Bush disagrees with the perspective that some of you hold and he supports mainstream Muslims and praises them. Condoleeza Rice did this recently as well. It seems that some people have a selective memory.

Also, I don't appreciate being called "an immigrant". I was born and bred an American. Being a "white christian" isn't what makes you an American, its love and adherence to the values espoused in our Constitution. Our Constitution explicitly rejects that any religion will be established, whether Christianity or Islam or whatever. 

I'd also like to thank all the people who have been patient and open minded. 

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

* What is Islam?*

Islam is not a new religion, but the same truth that Allah revealed through all His Prophets to every people. For a fifth of the world's population, Islam is both a religion and a complete way of life. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness, and the majority have nothing to do with the extremely grave events, which have come to be associated with their faith through a biased media.

*Who are the Muslims?*

Over one billion people from a vast range of races, nationalities and cultures across the globe - from the southern Philippines to Nigeria - are united by their common Islamic faith. About 18% live in the Arab world; the world's largest Muslim community is Indonesia; substantial parts of Asia and most parts of Africa are Muslim, while significant minorities are to be found in Russia, China, North and South America, and Europe.

*What do Muslims believe?*

Muslims believe in One, Unique, Incomparable God; in the Angels created by Him; in the Proph#ets through whom His revelations were brought to mankind; in the Day of Judgement and the individual accountability for actions; in God's complete authority over human destiny and in life after death. Muslims believe in a chain of Prophets starting with Adam and including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jonah, John and Jesus, alayhimus salam. But God's final message to man, a reconfirmation of the eternal message and a summing-up of all that has gone before, was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam through Archangel Gabriel.
*
How does someone become a Muslim?*

Simply by saying 'there is no deity apart from Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.'

*What does 'Islam' mean?*

The Arabic word 'Islam' simply means 'submission,' and derives from a word meaning 'peace.' In a religious context it means complete submission to the will of Allah. 'Muhammadanism' is thus a misnomer, because it suggests that Muslims worship Muhammad rather than Allah. "Allah" is the Arabic name for God, which is used by Arab Muslims and Christians alike.

*Why does Islam often seem strange?*

Islam may seem exotic or even extreme in the modern world. Perhaps this is because religion does not dominate everyday life in the West today, whereas Muslims have religion always uppermost in their minds, and make no division between the secular and the sacred. They believe that the Divine Law, the Shari'ah, should be taken very seriously, which is why issues related to religion are still so important.

*Do Islam and Christianity have different origins?*

No. Together with Judaism, they go back to the Prophet and Patriarch Abraham, alayhi salam, and their three Prophets are directly descended from his sons - Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam from the eldest, Ishmael, and Moses and Jesus from Isaac. Abraham established the settlement, which today is the city of Makkah, and built the Ka'bah towards which all Muslims turn when they pray.

*What is the Ka'bah?*

The Ka'bah is the place of worship which Allah commanded Abraham and Ishmael to build over four thousand years ago. The building was constructed of stone on what was the original site of the sanctuary established by Adam. God commanded Abraham to summon all mankind to visit this place, and when pilgrims go there today, they say 'At Thy service, O Lord,' in response to Abraham's call.

*Who is Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam?*

Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam was born in Makkah Al-Mukarramah in the year 570, at a time when Christianity was not yet fully established in Europe. Since his father died before his birth, and his mother shortly afterwards, he was raised by his uncle from the respected tribe of Quraysh. As he grew up, he became known for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in disputes. The historians describe him as calm and meditative.

Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam was of a deeply religious nature, and had long detested the decadence of his society. It became his habit to meditate from time to time in the Cave of Hira near the summit of Jabal Al-Nur, the 'Mountain of Light' near Makkah.

*How did he become a Prophet and a Messenger of God?*

At the age of 40, while engaged in meditative retreat, Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam received his first revelation from Allah through the Angel Gabriel. This revelation, which continued for twenty three years, is known as the Qur'an.

As soon as he began to recite the words he heard from Gabriel, and to preach the truth which Allah had revealed to him, he and his small group of followers suffered bitter persecution, which grew so fierce that in the year 622, Allah gave them the command to emigrate. This event, the Hijrah, 'migration,' in which they left Makkah for the city of Madinah some 420 kilometres to the north, marks the beginning of the Muslim calendar.

After several years, the Prophet Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam died at the age of 63, and within a century of his death, Islam had spread to Spain in the West and as far East as China.

*How did the spread of Islam affect the world?
*
Among the reasons for the rapid and peaceful spread of Islam was the simplicity of its doctrine - Islam calls for faith in only One God worthy of worship. It also repeatedly instructs man to use his powers of intelligence and observation.

Within a few years, great civilizations and universities were flourishing, for according to the Prophet Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, 'Seeking knowledge is an obligation for every Muslim.' The synthesis of Eastern and Western ideas and of new thought with old, brought about great advances in medicine, mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, architecture, art, literature, and history. Many crucial systems, such as algebra, the Arabic numerals, and also the concept of the zero (vital to the advancement of mathematics), were transmitted to medieval Europe from Islam. Sophisticated instruments, which were to make possible the European voyages of discovery, were developed, including the astrolabe, the quadrant and good navigational maps.

*What is the Qur'an?*

The Qur'an is a record of the exact words revealed by Allah through the Angel Gabriel, alayhi salam, to the Prophet Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam. It was memorized by Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam and then dictated to his Companions, and written down by scribes, who cross#checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters, Surahs, has been changed over the centuries, so that the Qur'an is in every detail the unique and miraculous text, which was revealed to Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam fourteen centuries ago.

*What is the Qur'an about?*

The Qur'an, the last revealed Word of God, is the prime source of every Muslim's faith and practice. It deals with all the subjects which concern us as human beings: wisdom, doctrine, worship and law, but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time, it provides guidelines for a just society, proper human conduct and an equitable economic system.

*Are there any other sacred sources?*

Yes, the Sunnah, the practice and example of the Prophet Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, is the second authority for Muslims. A Hadith is a reliably transmitted report of what the Prophet Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, did, or approved. Belief in the Sunnah is part of the Islamic faith.

Examples of the Prophet's Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam sayings:

The Prophet Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam said:

'Allah has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'

'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.'

'He who eats his fill while his neighbour goes without food, is not a believer.'

'The truthful and honest businessman will be in the company of the Prophets, the truthful people, and the martyrs on the Day of Judgement.'

'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger.'

'Allah does not judge according to your bodies and appearances, but He scans your hearts and looks into your deeds.'

'A man walking along a path felt very thirsty. Reaching a well he descended into it, drinking his fill and came up. Then he saw a dog with its tongue hanging out, trying to lick up mud and quench its thirst. The man saw that the dog was feeling the same thirst as he had felt so he went down into the well again and filled his shoe with water and gave the dog a drink. Allah forgave his sins for this action.'

The Prophet Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam was asked: 'Messenger of Allah, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?' He said: 'There is a reward for kindness to every living thing.'

(From the Hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi and Bayhaqi.)

Further Reading: Islam in Focus


----------



## vincenzo4

*Active Condemnation*

I agree.  However: did anyone living in the neighborhhods actively codemn Al Capone in Chicago in the 1990s?  Did any of the Chinese living in Chinatown open their mouths against the Tongs or the On Leongs?

Baghdad is nothing more than Chicago in the 1990s.

If you live amongst them and speak out, they will kill you, with glee.  This includes your children-while you watch.

Alignment with Islam is not alignment with murderers as much as my alignment with my Italian roots is not alignment with organized crime or La Cosa Nostra.

The Iraqi Police and Special Operations Forces are working to eliminate the wholesale slaughter of their people.  CNN won't air their courage.

Perspective is in order here.




			
				vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I agree with this.  But when you align yourself with a highly visible group that is making daily news for their violence, you're going to get painted with the same brush.  Especially if you don't actively condemn it.


----------



## vincenzo4

abdulhaqq:  Superbly accurate, heartfelt and well doumented.  I am quite familiar with the courage and love through selflessness of a few Muslims who I have worked alongside.  You must remember this is a Southern Maryland based forum.  The shallowness and lack of depth will explain why this global jihad is no big deal here and why you are insulted without conscience.

They know nothing, care to know nothing and ridicule anything that isn't taught over alcohol at Abner's, Stoney's or the affluent sophisticated red neck gathering point, the Tiki Bar.  America without the hassles, fine points, reality and annpying factual truth.  All they know is that Steny's party and their local connections made them what they are.  Transplants are simply the method to ensure capital that assures their 30,000 dollar pickup trucks and 600,000 dollar houses but nothing of depth pervades.



			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear All,
> 
> I'm surprised that the same subjects have been re-iterated over and over again.
> For the sake of clarity allow me to review some of the points I've made:
> 
> 1. Islam is not the same thing as terrorism. In the original few posts, I quoted references from Islamic texts such as the Qur'an which clearly condemned terrorism.
> See Post 4.
> 
> 
> 2. Although it is true that their are radical Muslims who preach hate, their are members in the international Muslim community who have openly disassociated themselves from the actions of these people. I've posted various documents by scholars who condemn terrorism. Furthermore, their are Muslims all over the world who are actively working in combatting terrorism, whether they are scholars, leaders of governments, translators, or covert operatives.
> See Post 18.
> Muslim Informer Uncovers Terror Ring
> 
> 3. With regards to the claims that I'm engaging in ad hominem attacks, this is a completely pathetic attempt to smear the point I was making. I did not say 'people are stupid if they don't accept islam'. I'm not here to proselytize people, I'm here to dispel misconceptions that people have about my religion and it seems like I have a lot of work to do. The reason I spoke to some people in a seemingly condescending manner was because they kept regurgitating the same flawed arguments that have already been addressed. They were making comments that had been directly addressed in a previous post so I concluded that they were either not reading properly or not properly assimilating all of the information.
> 
> As I've stated, I have personally written letters in various newspapers including the Capital, the Baltimore Sun, and my undergraduate university condemning terrorism. The war on terrorism isnt about just one country or religion or people, its a global mission. It involves people at every level of society. To claim that Muslims who are working hard to combat terrorism arent doing their job is undermining their credibility and giving support to terrorists. So if you love terrorism, then by all means, continue with your xenophobic uneducated rants. President Bush disagrees with the perspective that some of you hold and he supports mainstream Muslims and praises them. Condoleeza Rice did this recently as well. It seems that some people have a selective memory.
> 
> Also, I don't appreciate being called "an immigrant". I was born and bred an American. Being a "white christian" isn't what makes you an American, its love and adherence to the values espoused in our Constitution. Our Constitution explicitly rejects that any religion will be established, whether Christianity or Islam or whatever.
> 
> I'd also like to thank all the people who have been patient and open minded.
> 
> With Peace,
> 
> Abdulhaqq


----------



## MMDad

vincenzo4 said:
			
		

> I agree.  However: did anyone living in the neighborhhods actively codemn Al Capone in Chicago in the 1990s?
> 
> Baghdad is nothing more than Chicago in the 1990s.


  You might want to open a history book there, skippy. Look up Capone, then tell me why people in the 1990's would want to condemn him.


----------



## Ken King

Mikeinsmd said: “I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.”

Abdulhaqq said:  “PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.”

As a person also interested in the laws of the land you might want to advance your knowledge of what conspiracy to murder actually is.  
As defined in law at 18USC1117. 


> *Conspiracy to murder*
> If two or more persons conspire to violate section 1111, 1114, 1116, or 1119 of this title, and one or more of such persons do any overt act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life.


 
Mikeinsmd simply expressed a desire, which is not intent to do any harm, and as such would not by any means be considered as a threat to anyone nor would it constitute a conspiracy.  At most he could only be found guilty of being a blowhard.


----------



## vincenzo4

*1990s*

Skippy Chunkie:  

At least you read my post, that's why I incorrectly labeled it the 1990s vice the 1920s.  

Have you ever heard of Omerta?  Pure terroristic threats of death if you so much as opened your mouth, i. e. reported the black mail for protection money, bribery of police officials and judges and councilmen.  The Saint Valentine's Day Massacre ring a bell?

The Baathists are employing nothing new: witness termination and 
intimidation, precepts from the Nazi Party who they were in bed with for quite some time.

For those critical of Islam, whose history lesson was standing over a beer in a bar, one would do well to research the Spanish Inquisition, and tell me if anyone claiming christianity aligns themselves with those tactics.



			
				MMDad said:
			
		

> You might want to open a history book there, skippy. Look up Capone, then tell me why people in the 1990's would want to condemn him.


----------



## vincenzo4

*18 Usc 1117*

Abdulhaqq:  Conspiracy does not merge.  There has to be two people in agreement and an overt act in furtherance of that agreement.  

Mike's statement is proof that terrorism is the calculated use of fear to achieve political, religious and ideological goals, and affects an audience beyond the immediate victims.  Mike's reply is pure emotion, as much of the forum is these days apparently.  Judging by the continuing revulsion of the war, the terrorists are very successful in (1) affecting the voter and (2) steering the election to a certain party, where for at least eight years they operated without fear.

If the Democrats get back in the driver's seat, the will kill us, and blame it all on Bush.  I am convinced of it, after listening intently to ever lie and misrepresentation they have breathed in just the last year.

The offensive we face in Iraq today is an upscope by Iran and al Qaeda to maipulate that fear, and cause a shift in national will.

They have already won.  We don't care anymore, and those who want to run things on ego like Webb have seized the vacuum.

Imagine what it must be like to be working 18-20 hour days with no days off and you hear and see their crap from television in Baghdad.

Lynn Cheney is right on the mark.

It isn't Bush, it's us.



			
				Ken King said:
			
		

> Mikeinsmd said: “I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.”
> 
> Abdulhaqq said:  “PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.”
> 
> As a person also interested in the laws of the land you might want to advance your knowledge of what conspiracy to murder actually is.
> As defined in law at 18USC1117.
> 
> 
> Mikeinsmd simply expressed a desire, which is not intent to do any harm, and as such would not by any means be considered as a threat to anyone nor would it constitute a conspiracy.  At most he could only be found guilty of being a blowhard.


----------



## vincenzo4

*Context*

Take it our of context, that advances your agenda.  How many historical figures in Islam ever advicated bloodletting and genocide?  I wonder if Lisa Halaby or her wonderful husband would agree with you:

"...As someone with roots in both East and West, who has spent most of her adult life trying to build bridges between Arab and American culture, I have come to phrase the debate differently – not as a clash between Islam and Christianity, or between East and West, but between the forces of intolerance and the forces of understanding. In my work with the United Nations and human rights groups, I have time and again seen that the clashes that impede progress begin with those who insist their way is the only way; who paint the world in black and white. 

No one culture has a monopoly on either virtue or intolerance; such qualities are not apportioned geographically, or by religion. Advocates of compassion and peace can be found in all houses of worship. I should know — my Grandfather was an Eastern Orthodox Christian Arab who emigrated to the United States and converted to Christian Science when he married my Grandmother. I was raised by my parents to find my own path, and converted to Islam when I married. 
But I also know that a great gulf exists between those who are genuinely willing to listen to and empathize with others, and those who are not. 

*The greatest oppressors are those who feel entitled to impose by force their idea of what is right. The greatest injustices in human history occur when people believe so strongly in their own ideology that they are willing to hurt others in its name.* The ideology can be one of self-preservation and lust for power, as with dictators. It can be paternalistic, viewing the oppression of women, minorities, and the otherwise disenfranchised as “for their own good.” Or, it can be a so-called defensive policy that targets all dissent as a threat that must be dealt with preemptively. All of these arguments have been used in one way or another to justify injustice and conflict..." Salvation Army Dinner Gala, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 2004.

(God Bless You Lisa, you are a blessing of a daughter and a fine Mother)



			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> And as infidels, it can be said that we corrupt the land.  So by this verse and being infidels that corrupt the land, i guess it is OK for Muslims to kill us according to the Qur'an.


----------



## AliSamana

*How about a cup of coffee Mike?*

I believe Mike wanted Muslims to condemn terrorism, well here I am as well.  I am a part of the 1.4 billion muslims,that is mainstream, and to your surprise Mike, not a terrorist.  As for denouncing terrorism, what is a better way than joining the military that works to fight terrorism every day.  I am currently active duty, and though I don't know AbdulHaqq, he said his father is a Vietnam War Veteran.  

The only question I have for you is what kind of a man hides behind a screenname while calls the son of a hero a towelhead?  What kind of aman wants to kill all people within one race?  Oh yeah, I remember...Hitler!  No I am not comparing you to Hitler, however, please go back and read some of your posts.  Here is a legitimate offer.  You can email me, and I will buy you a cup of coffee.  You can even bring your gun, I will answer questions about Islam, and at the end of an hour, if you want, you can start by killing me.  Sound good?

Peacefully,

-Ali


----------



## AliSamana

Ken King said:
			
		

> Mikeinsmd said: “I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.”
> 
> Abdulhaqq said:  “PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.”
> 
> As a person also interested in the laws of the land you might want to advance your knowledge of what conspiracy to murder actually is.
> As defined in law at 18USC1117.
> 
> 
> Mikeinsmd simply expressed a desire, which is not intent to do any harm, and as such would not by any means be considered as a threat to anyone nor would it constitute a conspiracy.  At most he could only be found guilty of being a blowhard.




So, if I can say anything I want on the internet without any repricussions than why was a 14 year old girl visited by the Secret Service a couple of weeks ago? (http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/38768.html)  Since you are so savvy in the legal system I am sure you are fimiliar with the term known as Mens Rea, meaning intent or will to kill. It may only take an articulate attorney to convince a judge that what he posted might be what he intends to do.  I am not a lawyer, but you haven't claimed to be one either.  Maybe we should leave the legal jargon for attorneys to figure out and leave out the temper tantrum and death threats for other forums.  How does that sound?


----------



## vraiblonde

Fascinating how the conversation has been redirected to some unfortunate remarks and taken away from the meat of the thread.

Carry on


----------



## AliSamana

I think we deviated from the meat of the conversation a long time ago.  I do apprecaite your open mindedness, however, I think most of the conversation fell on deaf ears.  If anyone has any real questions that have not been answered so far please feel free to post them, I, along with AbdulHaqq and Punjabigyl will try our best to answer them.

Thanks again for your open mindedness!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

vincenzo4 said:
			
		

> ...
> At least you read my post, that's why I incorrectly labeled it the 1990s vice the 1920s.  ....


 Are you a politician? Did you say, oops, I made a mistake. No. We get, "that's why I incorrectly labeled it ..." like it was on purpose to serve a higher purpose.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

AliSamana said:
			
		

> I think we deviated from the meat of the conversation a long time ago.  I do apprecaite your open mindedness, however, I think most of the conversation fell on deaf ears.  If anyone has any real questions that have not been answered so far please feel free to post them, I, along with AbdulHaqq and Punjabigyl will try our best to answer them.
> 
> Thanks again for your open mindedness!


I asked some real questions. They were never answered. Let me try again.


			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Then *why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated?* After all, the Jews also worship the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses.
> 
> I am a Christian and I also worship God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses. ...
> 
> *Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries? *It seems the majority of Islam does not practice the tolerance you proclaim.





			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Again. No such thing as "hate crime." No crime is a "love crime." Crime is crime. Murder is murder. Isn't strange how it is a "hate crime" when a white kills a black but it is not a "hate crime' when a black kills a white? *Isn't each as heinous?*


----------



## Hessian

*Recap..*

Lord let us be at their throats, and we ask you to give us refuge from their evil," read the prayer on a slip of paper, prosecutors said in court documents filed late Wednesday.

Wazhma Mojaddidi, Hamid Hayat's attorney, said it is a common Islamic prayer. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/08/terror.arrests.ap/)
**********
Banners proclaimed: "Islam will dominate the world" and "Those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed are oppressors." Preachers Abu Hamza al-Masri and Omar Bakri Muhammad addressed hundreds, casting Islam as the salve to a U.S.-led world of suffering. (http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/a...0321-print.html)
**********

and...
http://www.liberty-and-culture.com/pages/2/index.htm


Islam is corrupt--period.
A religion of pieces that follows a dead child-raping thief who gloried in abusing power, harrassing indigenous tribes, contradicting himself ("satanic verses"), and screwing up previous religious writings while worshipping a meteorite.

Islam got stuck in the 11th century and has contributed so little to benefit mankind (apart from the "zero") that you could list it on half of an index card.

Where are your Mozarts? Bells? Washingtons? Columbus'?

They are out mugging Jews, planting bombs, plotting to overthrow the "great satan." and printing huge fabrications in textbooks (ie: Jews drink blood and are Monkeys)..

THIS IS NOT AN ISOLATED GROUP THAT HAS TWISTED YOUR RELIGION!
it would take me a few minutes to find news accounts across the world from Nigeria, to Sudan, to Egypt, to Somolia, to Pakistan, to India, to Russia, to Indonesia.....to FRANCE...about fanatics rioting, attacking churches, abductions, beheadings, false imprisonments, school bombings, nun assasinations, extortions etc....


all in the name of your glorious prophet and your mythical god allah.
Deny it.

Why not be true to your faith? Declare us all infidels that must submit or die and hand out candy to kids every 9/11 to celebrate the glorious 19?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

AliSamana said:
			
		

> The only question I have for you is what kind of a man hides behind a screenname while calls the son of a hero a towelhead?  What kind of aman wants to kill all people within one race?  Oh yeah, I remember...Hitler!  No I am not comparing you to Hitler, however, please go back and read some of your posts.  Here is a legitimate offer.  You can email me, and I will buy you a cup of coffee.  You can even bring your gun, I will answer questions about Islam, and at the end of an hour, if you want, you can start by killing me.  Sound good? Peacefully, -Ali


Ok let me clarify some things here.

1. I have no desire to sit with you and ask you questions about islam.  I know all I need to know. 

2. You did compare me to Hitler so lets break it down. Hitler wanted to annihilate a race of people who were peaceful.  Muslims want to annihilate anyone in the world who doesn't worship their God by condoning and participating in terrorism. I want to annihilate these Muslims.  So why did you bring up Hitler?? I'm confused. 

3. I don't hide anywhere. Never have, never will.

4. I will not kill you or anyone else. It is illegal and unlike the barbarians you and some others are here to defend, I will abide by our laws. 

5. I posted to AbdulHaqq: "I have no desire to discuss your warped religion with you or anyone else. I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can. Deal with it!"

6. I stand behind every post I put in this thread.  That's how I feel and it's my opinion. 

7. As I replied to Bustem, I am the worlds biggest bigot when it comes to this topic and I don't care who doesn't like it.

8. As I replied to Juggy, I say what the majority are thinking.

9. Thank you for your service to our country.






			
				AliSamana said:
			
		

> I think we deviated from the meat of the conversation a long time ago.  I do apprecaite your open mindedness, however, I think most of the conversation fell on deaf ears.  If anyone has any real questions that have not been answered so far please feel free to post them, I, *along with AbdulHaqq and Punjabigyl * will try our best to answer them.


I know you don't want advice from a redneck bigot but I'm offering it anyway.

While AbdulHaqq actually seems to be semi-educated, I suggest you search Punjabigyl's other posts and decide if you still want to align yourself with her.  She's not the sharpest tack in the box.


----------



## punjabigyrl

nobody has to align themselves to me or anyone else. I wrote my opinon... *deal with it.*


----------



## Mikeinsmd

punjabigyrl said:
			
		

> nobody has to align themselves to me or anyone else. I wrote my opinon... *deal with it.*


The "reply with quote" button is your friend.   

I suggest you direct your angst at AliSamana.  He's the one who included you in his post.


----------



## vincenzo4

*Higher Purpose*

I stated my reason, that's all there is to this.



			
				2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Are you a politician? Did you say, oops, I made a mistake. No. We get, "that's why I incorrectly labeled it ..." like it was on purpose to serve a higher purpose.


----------



## Railroad




----------



## Kain99

How horrible it must be, to be hated for something your  brother did.


----------



## Hessian

Kain99 said:
			
		

> How horrible it must be, to be hated for something your  brother did.



but your family fully approved of....
ie suicide bombing, honor murders, going to iraq to kill Sunnis/Kurds/Shi'ites/American relief workers.

(and they consider it an honor!)
(and Iraq used to pay bonuses...now they have to rely on Hamas and Iran)


----------



## Kain99

Hessian said:
			
		

> but your family fully approved of....
> ie suicide bombing, honor murders, going to iraq to kill Sunnis/Kurds/Shi'ites/American relief workers.
> 
> (and they consider it an honor!)


I think it is dangerous to lump them all together.  At least, I pray it is.


----------



## Ken King

AliSamana said:
			
		

> So, if I can say anything I want on the internet without any repricussions than why was a 14 year old girl visited by the Secret Service a couple of weeks ago? (http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/38768.html)  Since you are so savvy in the legal system I am sure you are fimiliar with the term known as Mens Rea, meaning intent or will to kill. It may only take an articulate attorney to convince a judge that what he posted might be what he intends to do.  I am not a lawyer, but you haven't claimed to be one either.  Maybe we should leave the legal jargon for attorneys to figure out and leave out the temper tantrum and death threats for other forums.  How does that sound?


No, some things written in forums like this can bite you in the ass, but stating that one has a "desire" to do something is considerably different than saying that they are going to "do" something.  And as to the Latin term Mens Rea, which is not as narrowly defined as you have stated, it means criminal intent, the state of mind indicating culpability which is required by statute as an element of a crime.  

I tried your link but choose not to register to read it, I take it since the Secret Service was involved it was a threat aimed at a high ranking government official, which in itself is covered by a different statute.

And you are correct that I am no lawyer, I just have a keen interest in the law as I find it fascinating.  The only reason it was brought up at all is because of the posting made as to possible legal repercussions for the statement that was made.

And now you can continue with the topic of your conversation as I have not partaken in either a tantrum or a death threat and truly have no issue with the majority that practice the religion of Islam, only those that skew it for their dastardly agendas.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Hessian, 

You've made several statements that I will address in succession.

Firstly, I'm not surprised that the same people who keep espousing the claim that 'islam is violent, barbaric, etc' are the same ones who can't make distinctions between a small category of individuals and groups and an entire religion whose adherents make up 1.2 billion people. With regards to the people carrying signs that said "Islam will dominate the world", they are from a fringe group called Hizb e Tehrir and Al Muhajiroun. The fact that you cite to this group as purportedly representing the majority of Muslims is a display of the profound ignorance you have the Muslim world. Hizb e Tehrir and Al Muhajiroun are banned all through out Muslim countries. They are not supported by Muslim governments anywhere in the world. That is why they exist in Western countries such as the Uk. To claim that the majority of Muslims represent these groups is just absurd. Theologically speaking, the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world doesn't adhere to the theology espoused by these groups. There are many Muslim scholars who have devoted their entire lives in refuting these groups. 

Secondly, with regards to Israel, most Muslims all over the world have no problem with accepting Israel as a state. In fact, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas is calling exactly for this. He happens to be a Muslim. Its another group, HAMAS, which is calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel's neighbors have also recognized it. Lets not forget Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey, all of whom happen to be Muslim countries. 

Thirdly, with regards to your slanderous claims against Muhammad (peace be upon him), I can raise similar claims from Biblical figures. The prophetic biography is more than enough proof against your absurd allegations, which will be exposed in due time, God willing. 

Fourthly, your claim that Islam is a medieval religion that cannot adjust to modern life is also an ignorant claim. Within Islamic jurisprudence, through the legal mechanism of 'ijtehad' which is independent reasoning, the Muslim understanding of their theology is always kept up to date for new circumstances and a re-interpretation of old issues. 

Fifthly, I'm glad you raised the question of Muslim contribution. I'll be more than happy to indulge you in a little bit of history that confirms that Islamic civilization's contribution to humanity has been more positive than negative. For starters, lets take a look at this page that gives a brief synopsis on Muslim Philosophers:
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/#people

The Muslim contributions to civilization are well known, especially in the fields of mathematics (algebra), astronomy, sailing (astrolabe), geography, history, etc. The recent winner of the Nobel Peace Prize was a Muslim. The designer of the Sears Tower was a Muslim. I suggest you study Islam a little more before making such preposterous claims. You make yourself look uneducated. 

Sixthly, your constant reference to Muslim anti-semitism is also misleading. If I recall, the Jewish Golden Age occurred in Muslim Spain. Muslim Spain was eliminated through the Inquisition which also targeted Jews in the name of "Christianity". Where did these Jews go? They didn't re-settle in other parts of anti-Semitic Europe, they re-settled within Muslim lands in the Ottoman Empire where many achieved high status and ranks within their government. 

Seventy, I honestly could care less about most of your claims, but nothing is more absurd than your claim that Muslims worship Allah on blind faith. If you've read the Qu'ran and had one iota of intellect, you would realize that Islam is not built upon blind faith. In the Qu'ran, God question's humanity's belief system on blind faith. Islam rejects those who adopt religions based on the mere fact that their ancestors followed that religion or that it makes them feel good. There are countless verses in the Qur'an that enjoin mankind to use their intellect. In Islamic history, there have been countless theologians who have worked diligently to prove the existence of the Creator. There are hundreds of proofs available from classical Muslim theologians who worked closely with Christians and Jews in their pursuit of the supremacy of monothiesm.

If you want to see the Muslim influence on Christian and Jewish theology, I suggest you read "The Philosophy of the Kalam" By Professor Harry Wolfson which gives a detailed exposition of Muslim theology using philosophical methods:
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/kalam.pdf

I find it interesting that you're telling me that its 'irrational' to believe in one God who asks humanity to believe in Him through proofs and not blind faith, yet you divide God into three parts which is logically absurd and yet claim that he's one and take it on blind faith. What's the proof for that? Is it rational or is it based on blind faith? 

Lastly, your claim that Islam is inherently violent and barbaric has been met responded to repeatedly in this thread directly from Islamic textual sources such as the Qur'an and Hadeeth and also in the form of legal verdicts from scholars from all over the Muslim world. If you want to be a suspicious paranoid who rants and ignores the explicit facts, be my guest friend.

There are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world and over 6 million in America. The overwhelming majority are peaceful people who want the same freedoms that everybody else does. Your stereotyping of 1/6th of the world is a reflection of your ignorance, not of Islam. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Kain99

I'm almost 100% certain that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.  Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## abdulhaqq

The following is a direct response to "Hessian" et al who claims that Islam has made no contribution to human civilization.

In addition to the "Philosophy of Kalam" by Harry Wolfson (I inserted the link in the previous post) which highlights Muslim contribution to Jewish and Christian theology, here is an article that explains Muslim contribution to European Medicine:

The Arab Roots of European Medicine

Written by David W. Tschanz

In the "General Prologue" of The Canterbury Tales , Geoffrey Chaucer identifies the authorities used by his "Doctour of Physic" in the six lines quoted above. The list includes four Arab physicians: Jesu Haly (Ibn 'Isa), Razi (Al-Razi, or Rhazes), Avycen (Ibn Sina, or Avicenna) and Averrois (Ibn Rushd, or Averroes). These four did not make Chaucer's list only to add an exotic flavor to his late-14th-century poetry. Chaucer cited them because they were regarded as among the great medical authorities of the ancient world and the European Middle Ages, physicians whose textbooks were used in European medical schools, and would be for centuries to come. First collecting, then translating, then augmenting and finally codifying the classical Greco-Roman heritage that Europe had lost, Arab physicians of the eighth to eleventh century laid the foundations of the institutions and the science of modern medicine.

Read More Here


----------



## abdulhaqq

Kain99 said:
			
		

> I'm almost 100% certain that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.  Please correct me if I am wrong.



The Arabic bible refers to God as "Allah"

Read More Here.


----------



## Kain99

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> The Arabic bible refers to God as "Allah"
> 
> Read More Here.


Yep!  Just like I thought!  Same God. Thank you.


----------



## Geek

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Vraiblonde
> 
> For Muslims, the war on terrorism is not a war of 'defense', it is basically a civil war between moderate mainstream Muslims and a fringe minority.
> 
> Although it is unfortunately true that a good deal of Muslims happen to be terrorists, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists and condemn there actions.
> 
> Lets not forget that it is Muslims who are fighting against Al Qaeda in Iraq and in Afghanistan and all over the world just as vigorously as non-Muslims. This war isn't about "Islam versus the West", it is about those who believe in compassion and civility as a way of life against those who don't.
> 
> 
> As was stated above, see the fatwa cited above that prohibits the criminal acts of terrorists who use beheadings.
> 
> In fact, please read the original post that contains a plethora of sources that condemn terrorism in any way, shape or form.
> 
> With Peace,
> 
> Abdulhaqq





  I hope you ment "a good deal of terroists happen to be Muslim"


----------



## Hessian

*What an interesting coincidence!*

"The designer of the Sears Tower was a Muslim"...

The guys who want to blow it up are moslems too! Imagine the odds....


----------



## Hessian

*Was Freud Moslem?*

"*Seventy*, I honestly could care less about most of your claims."


gee, what do you have on your mind abdul?


----------



## Hessian

*Yup,...real thinkers.*

"Islam is not built upon blind faith..."

Tell that to the loonies roaming around a black rock in 120 degree heat after they trampled 350 to death last year.

...there is your real thinkers I tell ya.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Hessian,
> 
> You've made several statements that I will address in succession.
> 
> 
> Secondly, with regards to Israel, most Muslims all over the world have no problem with accepting Israel as a state. In fact, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas is calling exactly for this. He happens to be a Muslim. Its another group, HAMAS, which is calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel's neighbors have also recognized it. Lets not forget Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey, all of whom happen to be Muslim countries.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


Then why would the Palestinian people elect Hamas as part of their government?  And why would Hezbollah be a large part of the government of Lebanon?  Publicly swears to eradicate Israel through terrorist activity, rocket attacks, kidnapping, suicide bombs and yet the "peaceful" Muslim citizens in those countries elect those terrorist organizations to be part of their government.  Even hold cabinet positions.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> ...
> I find it interesting that you're telling me that its 'irrational' to believe in one God who asks humanity to believe in Him through proofs and not blind faith, yet you divide God into three parts which is logically absurd and yet claim that he's one and take it on blind faith. What's the proof for that? Is it rational or is it based on blind faith? ...


That is your and your fellow Muslims' misunderstanding of Christianity. God humbled Himself to become man in order to be the only sacrifice to save humans from their sin. The Holy Spirit is God as He lives in those that accept Him. There is only one God in Christianity.

You have a physical self. Right? You have a spiritual self. Right? You exist in two forms and you are only a human. You do believe God is everywhere and is all powerful and can do anything? Or is the god of Islam an inferior god that is limited? The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Adam is not limited in any way. I thought that is the God you said you worshiped? If it is, then why do Muslims profess to limit the power and presence of God?

God loves me. God loves you. God loves even those that do not believe in Him. That is the reason He came as Jesus. Do I have blind faith? No. My eyes are wide open to the miracles God has done in my life and in the universe all around. If people did not praise God, then the very rocks would cry out His praises. God is as real as any physical being and greater than all, existing from time before imagination to time unimaginable. God is the Alpha and the Omega. Everything and everyone, all of creation exists by His will.

Even if God chooses to divide Himself into a thousand entities and call each of them by Their own name, what is that to puny humans? Who are we to say He can't do something? God is here as I type this; living in me. He is everywhere. He is at the extents of the the universe and beyond. Can you imagine the universe? Einstein said he couldn't. I can't. God created all of creation; the universe we see and all that we know nothing of. God is without limit and He is one God.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> The Arabic bible refers to God as "Allah"
> 
> Read More Here.


And when Christians profess their faith in God and preach the gospel of Jesus, God as the Savior of mankind,  to Arab people, they use the word Allah since, as I understand it, Allah means God.

Since you say Islam worships the God of Adam, the God of Moses, and the God of Abraham, why is it that Muslims think that Christians and Jews worship a false God since Christians and Jews worship the God of Adam, the God of Moses, and the God of Abraham? Same God seems to me. The difference is Christians know humans cannot be perfect. Do you think you are perfect? Sin, any sin, is imperfection and God is perfect and cannot allow the imperfect into His kingdom. God, being perfect, knows that mankind cannot be perfect. He knew that from creation and had planned the salvation of mankind through His sacrifice on a cross as a man, God come as man, in order to provide the only perfect sacrifice to save mankind from sin.

See, God, in His infinite mercy, knew that 2A, Abdulhaqq, Ken, Kain, Hessian, and every human could not be perfect so God provided the perfect sacrifice to cover our sins so that we could be perfect before Him. He provided Himself as the sacrifice. His blood covers our sins. When we accept His sacrifice for us, He throws our sins as far as east is from west. He no longer sees our imperfection but sees His own perfection because He chooses to because He loves you,  Ken, Kain, Hessian, and every human, and even me.


----------



## vraiblonde

Geek said:
			
		

> I hope you ment "a good deal of terroists happen to be Muslim"


No - he was clear and correct:


> Although it is unfortunately true that a good deal of Muslims happen to be terrorists, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists and condemn there actions.


Two to three million Muslim terrorists is nothing to sneeze at.  But in light of their 1.8 billion (with a b) global population, terrorists are really a small percentage of the whole.

Which begs the question of why Muslims can't control their violent brethren minority, and the answer is "because they don't want to".  There's a reason why so many Mulsim terrorist acts happen in other countries, but they're very rare in the US.  Paris has this huge uprising with all these "disaffected" Muslims rioting.  Palestinians blow up Israeli nightclubs and grocery stores filled with civilians rather routinely.  They blow up embassies as they please.

Yet we don't have that here, why?  Because our government won't stand for it.  The only reason it happens in Israel so frequently is because Muslims live right there and have fairly easy access.

If you think the Saudis, Turks and Pakistanis don't turn a blind eye to, if not actually encourage, terrorism, think again.  Why do you suppose the US had to go all the way over to Afghanistan to fight Al Qaeda?  Why wouldn't the neighbors have taken charge of this?

Answer:  because they don't want to.  They hate Israel and the US just as much as any suicide bomber.

Can you imagine if Canada had a rogue faction that was blowing up civilians on a regular basis, then running into our country for safe haven?  Do you think the US would ignore the situation and Australia or Japan would have to send troops to contain the problem?  And, PS, in the unlikely event that that happened, do you think the US would deny them use of our airspace to make the trip?

I realize this rant is more appropriate to Politics than Religion, but the topic is here, and Islam is just as much about politics as it is religion these days.


----------



## AliSamana

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> That is your and your fellow Muslims' misunderstanding of Christianity. God humbled Himself to become man in order to be the only sacrifice to save humans from their sin. The Holy Spirit is God as He lives in those that accept Him. There is only one God in Christianity.
> 
> *You have a physical self. Right? You have a spiritual self. Right? You exist in two forms and you are only a human. You do believe God is everywhere and is all powerful and can do anything? Or is the god of Islam an inferior god that is limited? The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Adam is not limited in any way. I thought that is the God you said you worshiped? If it is, then why do Muslims profess to limit the power and presence of God?*
> God loves me. God loves you. God loves even those that do not believe in Him. That is the reason He came as Jesus. Do I have blind faith? No. My eyes are wide open to the miracles God has done in my life and in the universe all around. If people did not praise God, then the very rocks would cry out His praises. God is as real as any physical being and greater than all, existing from time before imagination to time unimaginable. God is the Alpha and the Omega. Everything and everyone, all of creation exists by His will.
> 
> Even if God chooses to divide Himself into a thousand entities and call each of them by Their own name, what is that to puny humans? Who are we to say He can't do something? God is here as I type this; living in me. He is everywhere. He is at the extents of the the universe and beyond. Can you imagine the universe? Einstein said he couldn't. I can't. God created all of creation; the universe we see and all that we know nothing of. God is without limit and He is one God.



Though we don't believe in the trinity as Muslims, I will tell you that is one of the best explanations of trinity I have heard.  I am always up for open conversation like this.

Muslims do not put limit on God, as a matter of fact, we prefer to use Allah because you can't make the word Allah plural or make it gender specific.  Muslims have the utmost respect for the diving being, I remember someone had said they pray countless times a day.  Muslims pray when they wake up, before they go to the bathroom, when they get out of the bathroom, when they put on their clothes, before they eat breakfast, after they eat breakfast, and that is not including the obligatory morning prayer, and I am not even finished with my morning routing   Talk about countless...


----------



## AliSamana

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I asked some real questions. They were never answered. Let me try again.



Sorry about the delay in responding.  Had alot going on yesterday.  Why is it the Christians and Jews cannot prasy freely in Muslim Countries.  I believe, like many muslims, that Islam has been perverted by extremist.  The best way to answer this question is to look at what Prophet Mohammad would do.  During his lifetime, he had Christians and Jews in the mosque (not just in the country or the city) who were there, praying to there religion.  Prophet Mohammad saw Jews and Christians as friends, not foes.  When times were bad for him, he asked his friends to seek refuge in a country that had a Christian King.  This friendship turned into sour relationship with the help of extremists.

I can't see your other questions on this screen.  I will reply to them here in a few.

Hope that helps!


----------



## itsbob

Homesick said:
			
		

> God help us.


Help us??

Shirley, you jest?


----------



## Pushrod

From a short history of the ACLU:


> Several crucial leaders of the ACLU were members of the Communist Party. Earl Browder, then General Secretary of the Communist Party, said the ACLU functioned as "a transmission belt" for the party.



Yeah, like I would trust anyone associated with that group.

And why hasn't Abdul 1 or 2 answered specifically the questions posed by Pete or 2ndAmendment? Truth hurts?

You know, in the US, 60 million peaceful gun owners committed no crimes with their guns over this past weekend, but if a criminal commits a henious crime with a gun all the leading gun rights groups would step up to the plate and comdemn the crime. And if a gun owner who is carrying comes across a criminal in the act of hurting another citizen, 99% of them would put their lives on the line to stop that criminals actions.

I don't see the same thing happening in the Muslim world in regard to terrorism!!


----------



## Sharon

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Muslims pray when they wake up, before they go to the bathroom, when they get out of the bathroom, when they put on their clothes, before they eat breakfast, after they eat breakfast, and that is not including the obligatory morning prayer, and I am not even finished with my morning routing   Talk about countless...



What "exactly" are they praying for?


----------



## AliSamana

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> No - he was clear and correct:
> 
> Two to three million Muslim terrorists is nothing to sneeze at.  But in light of their 1.8 billion (with a b) global population, terrorists are really a small percentage of the whole.
> 
> *Which begs the question of why Muslims can't control their violent brethren minority, and the answer is "because they don't want to".  There's a reason why so many Mulsim terrorist acts happen in other countries, but they're very rare in the US.  Paris has this huge uprising with all these "disaffected" Muslims rioting.  Palestinians blow up Israeli nightclubs and grocery stores filled with civilians rather routinely.  They blow up embassies as they please*.
> 
> Yet we don't have that here, why?  Because our government won't stand for it.  The only reason it happens in Israel so frequently is because Muslims live right there and have fairly easy access.
> 
> If you think the Saudis, Turks and Pakistanis don't turn a blind eye to, if not actually encourage, terrorism, think again.  Why do you suppose the US had to go all the way over to Afghanistan to fight Al Qaeda?  Why wouldn't the neighbors have taken charge of this?
> 
> Answer:  because they don't want to.  They hate Israel and the US just as much as any suicide bomber.
> 
> Can you imagine if Canada had a rogue faction that was blowing up civilians on a regular basis, then running into our country for safe haven?  Do you think the US would ignore the situation and Australia or Japan would have to send troops to contain the problem?  And, PS, in the unlikely event that that happened, do you think the US would deny them use of our airspace to make the trip?
> 
> I realize this rant is more appropriate to Politics than Religion, but the topic is here, and Islam is just as much about politics as it is religion these days.




Statistically speaking 2.8 Billion people make less than 2 Dollars a day.  Its kind of hard to worry about other things when you don't have food on the table don't ya think.  It is easy for us to sit here and criticize.  Lets go to those third world countries  look at the situation and then evaluate.  I am sure we will have a better idea than anyway.

In reality there have been many attacks on the US, though not on US Soil.  Lets start with the 83 Marine Corp bombing, then 93 World Trade Center attach, how about the various embassy bombings, USS COle and 9/11, and that is just off the top of my head.  SO, lets not turn this complex world into black and white just because it helps your side of the arguement


----------



## AliSamana

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I asked some real questions. They were never answered. Let me try again.



The second question that I promised you I would answer, well AbdulHaqq had already answered it for you...

AbdulHaqq said: "Secondly, with regards to Israel, most Muslims all over the world have no problem with accepting Israel as a state. In fact, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas is calling exactly for this. He happens to be a Muslim. Its another group, HAMAS, which is calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel's neighbors have also recognized it. Lets not forget Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey, all of whom happen to be Muslim countries."


----------



## AliSamana

Pushrod said:
			
		

> From a short history of the ACLU:
> 
> 
> Yeah, like I would trust anyone associated with that group.
> 
> *And why hasn't Abdul 1 or 2 answered specifically the questions posed by Pete or 2ndAmendment? Truth hurts?*
> 
> You know, in the US, 60 million peaceful gun owners committed no crimes with their guns over this past weekend, but if a criminal commits a henious crime with a gun all the leading gun rights groups would step up to the plate and comdemn the crime. And if a gun owner who is carrying comes across a criminal in the act of hurting another citizen, 99% of them would put their lives on the line to stop that criminals actions.
> 
> I don't see the same thing happening in the Muslim world in regard to terrorism!!



All the rational questions that were posted were rationally answred.  Sometimes, many times.  BTW, are you Pete and 2ndAMDs acting cheer leader?  Just wondering....


----------



## Pete

AliSamana said:
			
		

> All the rational questions that were posted were rationally answred.  Sometimes, many times.  BTW, are you Pete and 2ndAMDs acting cheer leader?  Just wondering....


 There you go again.  Don't like the question belittle the questioner.  Your credibility is growing Mr. High Horse.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Though we don't believe in the trinity as Muslims, I will tell you that is one of the best explanations of trinity I have heard.  I am always up for open conversation like this.
> 
> Muslims do not put limit on God, as a matter of fact, we prefer to use Allah because you can't make the word Allah plural or make it gender specific.  Muslims have the utmost respect for the diving being, I remember someone had said they pray countless times a day.  Muslims pray when they wake up, before they go to the bathroom, when they get out of the bathroom, when they put on their clothes, before they eat breakfast, after they eat breakfast, and that is not including the obligatory morning prayer, and I am not even finished with my morning routing   Talk about countless...


You won't find the word trinity in the Bible, Old or New Testament, either. Christians believe in one God. We believe God presents Himself to us in any form He chooses and has chosen to exhibit Himself to us as the Creator, a loving Father, as Y'shua, Jesus, and as the Holy Spirit. Not three , four, or many gods but one God choosing to provide what each human needs to know that God is God and that there is no other God. God also exhibits Himself to us as Provider, Protector, and in many other forms of benefaction. He also exhibits Himself as an exacting God requiring of us to do things according to His plan and not ours.

Jesus was not ambiguous about who He is. He was secretive about His true self until after His resurrection. Then He declared to His followers that He is the Father revealed to mankind as man. This probably the best explanation in the Bible of the relationship of God as Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit; one God giving mankind what we need to know and follow His ways.





> John 14
> Jesus Comforts His Disciples
> 
> 1"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
> 
> 2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
> 
> 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
> 
> 4"And you know the way where I am going."
> 
> 5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"
> 
> 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
> 
> Oneness with the Father
> 
> *7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
> *
> 8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
> 
> *9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
> 
> 10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
> 
> 11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.*
> 
> 12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
> 
> 13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
> 
> 14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
> 
> 15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
> 
> Role of the Spirit
> 
> *16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
> 
> 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
> *
> 18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
> 
> 19"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
> 
> *20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
> *
> 21"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
> 
> 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"
> 
> 23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
> 
> 24"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
> 
> 25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.
> 
> *26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
> *
> 27"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
> 
> 28"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
> 
> 29"Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.
> 
> 30"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
> 
> 31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me Get up, let us go from here.


God is Spirit and not confined by human constraints. He reveals Himself to each of us according to His will and everything exists for His purpose. I do not presume to understand God. I cannot understand His creation. How could I understand the Creator? All I can do is know that He shows me His mercy, truth, and love every day. 

I know God loves me. I try to love Him by doing His will and obeying His commandments. I may fail, But He provided the way for my imperfection to be perfect in His sight. He is such a loving God. He loves all His children. Mankind was created to walk and talk with God in Eden. Mankind failed. God did not. God provided the way that mankind can be reconciled to Him so that we may walk and talk with Him in this life and the life to come.


----------



## vraiblonde

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Statistically speaking 2.8 Billion people make less than 2 Dollars a day.  Its kind of hard to worry about other things when you don't have food on the table don't ya think.  It is easy for us to sit here and criticize.  Lets go to those third world countries  look at the situation and then evaluate.  I am sure we will have a better idea than anyway.
> 
> In reality there have been many attacks on the US, though not on US Soil.  Lets start with the 83 Marine Corp bombing, then 93 World Trade Center attach, how about the various embassy bombings, USS COle and 9/11, and that is just off the top of my head.  SO, lets not turn this complex world into black and white just because it helps your side of the arguement


Did you even read my post?  Because your "response" is almost a non sequitur.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2ndAmendment,

I would hardly construe this as a 'misunderstanding' of Muslims. Muslims weren't the first people to reject the trinity. Within Christianity itself, there have been historic debates between various sects as to the legitimacy of the trinity. The trinity wasn't formally recognized until 325 AD in the form of the Nicene Creed. That means that after 300 years, Christians were debating one of the most important thesis in religion. 

It should be noted that religions that predate Christianity such as Judaism also reject the trinity. The concept of the Trinity has pagan, not monotheistic roots. If the God of Judaism and the God of Christianity and Islam are the same, then why do Jews and Christians not believe in the trinity?

The problem I have with your analogy that 'since humans are comprised of parts, therefore God is divided into parts' is that you are comparing human beings which are created beings and god, which is an absolute, eternal, and unlimited being. I don't understand how Christians can be considered monothiests when they believe that God subsists in his creation. This doesn't seem to be monothiesm, but monadism and is more similar to hinduism which posits that all of matter and god subsist within one another. 

With regards to the argument that the trinity is an exposition of God's unlimited power, I find the opposite to be true. Firstly, if God is unlimited, than how is he divided into parts, one of which was born and died as a man?
A man would be both temporally and spatially limited. The whole is the sum of the parts, no? If the parts are limited, temporal, than how can the whole be construed to be eternal, absolute, and powerful?

Islam doesn't have this problem because Islam hasn't adopted the misogynistic view of 'original sin'. Every human being, whether male or female, is born in a state of fitra which means a disposition to good. Humans are born in a state of purity and are free from sin. In Islam, humans dont become morally responsible until they become intellectually mature, i.e. until they reach the age of maturity. Insane people and children are presumed to be pure of sin. Furthermore, since each person is responsible for their own actions, they can repent from their sins directly to God, instead of going through an intermediary. 

This also begs the question: if God is so powerful, why did he need to send an intermediary the second time around in order to correct original sin? Either god made a mistake with the fall of mankind or he intentionally caused the downfall of man. Either way, this doesn't seem to be the actions of an omnipotent merciful god, but a limited and confused God. I don't buy it. It doesn't make rational sense nor textual sense. 

What is even more perturbing is the claim that not only did God create a second self through his creation (which is limited both temporally and spatially) that was born of a woman (further establishing its limited nature since it had to be born like a regular creature of flesh and blood), but this 'second self' died and also went to hell and suffered for humanity. Aside from the obvious implications that god is not good but sinned and suffered in hell to atone for those sins or the sins of humanity including non-christians (which makes the whole point of accepting christianity moot), this clearly limits god. 

Lastly, what proof do we have that God has even claimed to be divided into three parts? This is something that is not rationally deduced, but textually transmitted through scripture. In order to prove the trinity, Christians would first have to prove that the Bible has been transmitted word for word from God to humanity. The fact that there is no historical dispute as to the unreliability of the bibles in their various forms casts doubt on this claim. Conversely, the Qur'an has been unchanged in 1400 years and early copies of the Qur'an are still in existence today.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2ndAmendment,

Here is a relevant excerpt from the Qur'an:

_  Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
   Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
  He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
  And there is none like unto Him._

These verses establish the fundamental tenets of Islamic monotheism (tawheed). 

If God had a father or a son and his existence was contingent upon something else, then how could either be absolute or eternal? If they had different wills, then they would not be single entity, but multiple entities. If they had a single wills, that would mean that each part lacked volition in which case each would be limited by the other's will which are the characteristics of entities that are not absolute or eternal.

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Larry Gude

*Anyone wanna address this...*



			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear 2ndAmendment,
> 
> Here is a relevant excerpt from the Qur'an:
> 
> _  Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
> Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
> He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
> And there is none like unto Him._
> 
> These verses establish the fundamental tenets of Islamic monotheism (tawheed).




and...




> we prefer to use Allah because you can't make the word Allah plural or make it gender specific.




I'm just asking.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Larry Gude said:
			
		

> and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just asking.


I think you already did.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear 2ndAmendment,
> 
> ...
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


You accuse others of not reading well. I would say the same of you. I have never said nor does the Bible ever say God is anything but one God. God reveals Himself as He chooses. Jesus is the Father; Jesus and the Father is one God. The Holy Spirit is the Father; the Holy Spirit and the Father is one God.

As to the tenent that humans are born with a disposition to good, I would say look around you at the world at humans including yourself and honestly tell me that you and all those around you are good and always follow God. Those that kill in the name of Allah are not good nor do they have a disposition to good. The world around you refutes this tenent.

I never said God is divided. I said that _*if*_ God chose to divide Himself, then He can and we can do nothing about it.

The Bible has remained unchanged. This has been a topic of dicussion before. 



> The oldest manuscripts of ancient writers like Aristotle, Plato, Herodotus (among other) amounts to a small number of copies that were made a thousand years or more after the originals were written. There are no more then ten manuscripts of Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, and the oldest copy of that was written over 900 years later than the original. Scholars accept these documents as adequate representations of the originals.
> 
> Why not the bible?
> 
> The earliest portions of The New Testament date to within just 25 years of the originals. Some nearly complete books of the new testament date to within one century or less from the originals. And we're not even talking about a handful of copies that can be compared with one another to determine accuracy or consistence. There are nearly 25,000 complete manuscripts of the New Testament, with more than 15,000 that date to before the 7th Century A.D. (or C.E. if you prefer). These include 5,300 copies in the original Greek, over 10,000 in Latin Vulgate, 4,100 Slavic translations, 2,000 Ethiopian translations and about 1,000 other early translations.
> 
> Further, in the first centuries after Christ, thousands of letters, and other documents were written in which people quoted from other documents that would later be assembled into what was to become the New Testament.. These quotes are so extensive that even if there wasn't a single bible in existence, you could go back to those letters and documents and using only those written within 250 years after the death of Christ, you could find every word of the New Testament, with the exception of 11 verses.
> 
> There are small differences in all those manuscripts - however, all these differences, most are a matter of spelling or word order changes that were made as the styles changed over the ages. In fact a total of only about 200 words, or 1/10 of 1 percent of the entire new testament are subject to more than trivial differences. And no single doctrine of Christianity in all it's denominations throughout history depend on a piece of disputed text.
> 
> 
> As for the Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls show that in over 2,000 years those who copied the Old testament were so meticulous that no significant changes were made to the texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls represent a major library of over 800 total documents dating between 250 B.C. to 68 A.D. Every book of the Old Testament is included except for some minor prophets, and Esther.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

While researching, I found this as well. History reveals that Islam is not the peaceful religion you would lead us to believe it is.


> After the death of Mohammed, their mode of expansion was through pillaging raids North and West. There was a powerful drive to a) eradicate any competing religion, b) enslave all resistance c) destroy any cultural sites.
> 
> A) Persia Fell by the 640's. (Nihavand)
> B) Byzantine's first loss: 636
> C) Syria Massacres of Christians 634
> D) Mesopotamian cities ransacked and monasteries destroyed 640's
> E) Cyprus secured by a "great Massacre" in 640's
> F) Tripoli laid waste 643
> G) Jerusalem Fell 638
> H) Internal civil war killed 10,000 in the 650's (Battle of the Camel)
> I) Sunni & Shia split in war in the 680's. (Over legitimacy of rulers)
> J) All Christian elements in Jerusalem destroyed 1009 (Hakem's orders)
> K) 1070-1160's...Crusades...most fail.
> L) 1244 Jerusalem fell to Baybars who promised 2000 knights safe passage,...they were massacred.
> M)Antioch soon fell: 16,000 massacred (100,000 sold into slavery)
> N) Discrimination was codified for the the conquered lands: Minority nonmoslems were under constant heavy taxation, threatened with rape, abduction, enslavement and abuse. (See the "pact of Umar")
> O) 712: Invasion of India: 3 straight days of massacres in Debal
> P) Brahminabad: 6000-16,000 men massacred.
> Q) Every Hindu temple destroyed and all art/libraries/ cultural sites burned.
> R) 50,000 Hindus slain on Mahmud's orders at Somnath
> S) 1193: Muhammed Khilji destroyed the premiere Buddhist library
> T) Firuz Shah wiped out all Buddhist temples in No. India and replaced them all with Mosques...ordered all Hindus slain while they were in a festival.
> U) Feb 1568 30,000 Hindus executed by order of Moghul Akbar.
> V) Shah Jahan: builder of the Taj Mahal had 5000 concubines, raped his two daughters, and massacred 10,000 after Hugh fell to him,...4000 killed in Agra
> W) 1453: Constantinople fell: Massacres continued for three days
> X) Blood levys carried out against all Christians under Islamic law: they must surrender their boys to become mercenaries: "Janissaries"
> Y) 1822: Massacre at Chios (10,000's)
> Z) 1823: Massacre at Missolongi (8750)
> 
> Since U.S. Civil War:
> a) Lebannon: 12,000 Christians murdered in 1860
> b) Bulgaria: 14,700 massacred by Ottomans in 1876
> c)(*Britain turns a blind eye to the atrocities of Turkey...hoping that they will prove to balance out Russia & Austria in the 1870's)
> d) Armenians slaughtered in 1877 (Bayazid)...1879 (Alashgurd)...1894 (Sassun)...Constantinople (1896)...Adana 1909...and in Armenia (1895-96) totally approx 200,000.
> e) Artificial Famine (ie Somolia 1990)...killed 100,000 Maronite Christians in Lebannon & Syria in 1916
> f) Armenian Massacres: 100,000+ in 1915
> g) Smyrna 1922: 300,000 displaced, killed & scattered
> h) Armenia: 1922...10,000+ killed & displaced
> 
> Only the distractions of the depression & WWII kept the West believing that the moslem "powers" were benign.
> Where native populations were stabilized: since WWII: mass migrations of Christians, Hindus, & Buddhists have left a monoIslamist climate behind.
> (ie Pakistan: 1941: 25% Hindu...1948: 17% Hindu...1991: 1.5% Hindu)


----------



## meelak

Brother/Sister, 2ndAmendment, 
I was going thru these forum pages and came across this post and I wanted to help 2ndAmendment. 

First of all, brother AbdulHaq and the all the like minded people - dialogue is what we need so we can share each other's views and learn to live in peace and harmony. There is no need for name calling and attacking people. We all know there are black sheeps in all the religions. People who bring bad names to their religion through their action. As learned people, we are not to generalize and stereotype people, community or nations. 

I am proud of being a muslim and I thank allah for it and I am equally proud of being a US citizen and thank allah for that also. Many a times people ask me which country I came from and why I came. My response to them is, I came to this country for the same exact reason as your forefathers came (to earn a better livelihood) and just because your forefathers came few generations ago does not make you superior to me or give you special privilege. Likewise, there are american people going and working in middle eastern countries because there is no income tax. As of today, there are more than 75,000 americans working in Saudi Arabia alone and if you add their spouses and children, it is more than 200,000 americans. What about the americans who are working in Qatar, Kuwait and what about the americans working in UAE - construction boom. Just in the company where I work in Maryland, one of my colleague worked in Saudi for more than 10 years and another colleague told me yesterday that her brother has gone to UAE on a construction project. If you go by the percentage, obviouly there are lot more people coming into this country for better living than the people going from here to other countries for better living. What I am saying is that it is the general nature of the people to go where they believe they can do better and succeed. Also, please remember that countries admit foreign citizens into their country if it is beneficial for them. So, it is a win-win situation. Look at the scientific community, medicine, NASA, IT and the list go on. You will see the contribution of the immigrant community. 

Anyway, my response to this post was that John 14 is the most misunderstood chapter by the bible readers. If you read clearly, in essence what Jesus is telling is - to get close to god, you have to follow him. This is what all the other prophets have said. Because allah sent prophets among the mankind so that people can understand the directives spoken by someone who is one among them and can speak in their own language. Hebrew like Arabic is very poetic and classical and has to be understood in the right context. Even in english, when we say, "The sunset is at 5:09" we don't really mean the sun is setting. The sun does not rise or the sun does not set - similarly in those days the speach was symbolic at times. In John 14, Jesus is trying to convey to his disciples that the directives/preachings of his are exactly same as that of god. So, if one follows the directives of the prophet, he/she is following the directives of god and in that way both are the same because a prophet does not speak or do anything on his own. It is the inspiration of god.

Show me a single statement in the bible where jesus in his own words says, "I am god and worship me". In fact, if you search through the entire bible you will not come across a single statement where jesus is claiming to be god. How can he if he is only the prophet or the messaiyah of god? The book of John written by his disciple is John's interpretation/understanding of what jesus thought to have said and that too it was written 100 to 150 years after jesus died and jesus was not alive to verify the accounts to be true and attest to that. 

The word Trinity is not mentioned in the bible, but it is mentioned in the Qur'an and the verse says, 

"Qur'an 4:171 O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. [181] Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "[God is] a trinity". Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God."

If we believe god to be omnipotent, the creator, sustainer, protector, etc and having power over all the things, then why is there a need for him to come down as a human being? He has power over our minds also, so he could just program our mind from wherever he is. 

If a man makes a tape recorder, he assembles all the required things that he knows would produce the desired result. The taperecorder has got to be able to fast forward, reverse, play, etc. But the maker of the tape recorder does not need to become a tape recorder to feel or understand what or how the tape recorder functions, the maker already knows that.

So, when you say Trinity, you are saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It is not true brothers and sisters and your common sense will tell you that.  

Brother, AbdulHaqq, thank you for starting the dialogue. Don't get discouraged by the name calling or other incitement. We need to share our views - I am sure there are lots of educated readers on this forum who see the value in getting to know the views from the muslims.


----------



## Toxick

meelak said:
			
		

> So, when you say Trinity, you are saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It is not true brothers and sisters and your common sense will tell you that.




When I say Trinity, I say nothing like 1+1+1=1.


To say that a triangle has three sides does not mean there is more than one triangle.


I worship ONE God. 

Period.


----------



## itsbob

Yep, organized religion isn't a bad thing at all..


----------



## itsbob

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Statistically speaking 2.8 Billion people make less than 2 Dollars a day.


7-11 pays MORE then that...


----------



## meelak

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I asked some real questions. They were never answered. Let me try again.




2ndAmendment,
Here are your answers.

Then why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated? 

Islamic countries do not want Israel annihilated. If one person issues a statement that does not become binding and that does not become the will of the people. Couple of years back Saudi Arabia came up with a proposal to Israel and that offer still holds good. Recently Olmert (israeli PM) met with Saudi rule to discuss about this. If you are looking for this news on CNNN, FOX, ABC, etc. you will not find it. The offer basically says that all the islamic countries will have full diplomatic and trade ties with Israel if it returns back to the borders that existed in 1967. If Israel returns the occupied land, the islamic countries are willing to have friendly relationship with israel and recognize it and have full trade ties. 

For a moment imagine this, You have a beautiful house with a big back yard and all of a sudden a bunch of people come in over power you and build their house in the back yard and claim the entire backyard to be theirs and confine you just to be in your house. They allow you to get out of your own house only at certain timings, only for certain purposes and ration the food and electricity and water to you. If you oppose you will be called a terrorist and you will be beaten up. How will you react? Will you welcome them with garlands? Even after all this the islamic countries are saying, just give back what you illegally took - we will forget and forgive and have normal relationship with you. I think that is a fair offer. 



Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries? 

From this question, it is apparent you have not traveled outside this country and your view is based on what you are seeing on TV or reading in papers. In Saudi Arabia you are free to practice any religion as long as you don't preach and the non-muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca because it is a sacred place and the only reason why you would enter this small city is to pray at the holy place. If you are not a muslim, you are not going to pray there anyway, so there is no need for you to be there. It is same as why the regular public is not allowed on military installations. If you are affiliated with military, you have a reason to be there, if not, why should you overcrowd that place and cause logistical issues on the facility. 

Also, in Saudi Arabia, the top jobs ceos of the top companies, administrators of the public sector organizations - most of them are non-muslims (you will be surpised). 

Get into the details of the following islamic countries (Malaysia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia) and you will see that there are many christians and jews living side by side with the muslims.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

meelak said:
			
		

> Brother/Sister, 2ndAmendment,
> I was going thru these forum pages and came across this post and I wanted to help 2ndAmendment.


Don't need your help in understanding the Bible since it is obvious that you do not understand it. I may have some dirt in my eyes, but I don't need a blind person to help me see.


			
				meelak said:
			
		

> Show me a single statement in the bible where jesus in his own words says, "I am god and worship me". In fact, if you search through the entire bible you will not come across a single statement where jesus is claiming to be god. How can he if he is only the prophet or the messaiyah of god?


That would be the Messiah, annointed one, king. Jesus says that when His disciple had seen Him, they had seen the Father. 





> John 14:9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


 Very plain. How about:





> John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


 That is pretty plain. Don't see the mention of anyone else who someone can believe in and get to the Father. 





			
				meelak said:
			
		

> The book of John written by his disciple is John's interpretation/understanding of what jesus thought to have said and that too it was written 100 to 150 years after jesus died and jesus was not alive to verify the accounts to be true and attest to that.


 Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. Did Mohamed do that? Nope.





			
				meelak said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> So, when you say Trinity, you are saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It is not true brothers and sisters and your common sense will tell you that.


Again. You are very wrong in your understanding. Christians believe in only one God. How many times do you have to be told that the word trinity is not in the Bible. 


			
				meelak said:
			
		

> Brother, AbdulHaqq, thank you for starting the dialogue. Don't get discouraged by the name calling or other incitement. We need to share our views - I am sure there are lots of educated readers on this forum who see the value in getting to know the views from the muslims.


If you wish to share your views, then respect the Bible and God as I show respect to the Qur'an. See. Capitalization is recognition I give and expect. If you disrespect God then I guess it is OK for me to post allah and qur'an or koran and mohamed.Give respect to get respect. Withhold respect and get none.

Quite frankly, I am not interested in Islam. I know Jesus as my Savior and Lord who is in the Father and the Father in Him who is God. I do not need Mohamed who was only a man. Now if you would like to learn about the real Y'shua, Jesus, God come as man, I will be more than happy to have discourse with you.

Remember God came as Jesus to be a Savior for you. All you have to do is repent, accept Jesus as your Savior, and follow Him to the Father. It is all God. Aren't you glad God loves you? I am. God didn't kill someone else for me; He chose to humble Himself and come as man to die for me and then show me the promise of eternal life by coming back to life. Now that is a loving God.


----------



## itsbob

Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. *Did Mohamed do that?* Nope. 


OUR savior is better then your Savior.. Nyah nyah nyah!!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

meelak said:
			
		

> 2ndAmendment,
> Here are your answers.
> 
> Then why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated?
> 
> Islamic countries do not want Israel annihilated. If one person issues a statement that does not become binding and that does not become the will of the people. Couple of years back Saudi Arabia came up with a proposal to Israel and that offer still holds good. Recently Olmert (israeli PM) met with Saudi rule to discuss about this. If you are looking for this news on CNNN, FOX, ABC, etc. you will not find it. The offer basically says that all the islamic countries will have full diplomatic and trade ties with Israel if it returns back to the borders that existed in 1967. If Israel returns the occupied land, the islamic countries are willing to have friendly relationship with israel and recognize it and have full trade ties.
> 
> For a moment imagine this, You have a beautiful house with a big back yard and all of a sudden a bunch of people come in over power you and build their house in the back yard and claim the entire backyard to be theirs and confine you just to be in your house. They allow you to get out of your own house only at certain timings, only for certain purposes and ration the food and electricity and water to you. If you oppose you will be called a terrorist and you will be beaten up. How will you react? Will you welcome them with garlands? Even after all this the islamic countries are saying, just give back what you illegally took - we will forget and forgive and have normal relationship with you. I think that is a fair offer.


When countries loose a war, the victor does not have to give up the territory taken. The U.S. typically does, but has not always. Israel chose not to give up the conquered territories. Those territories were conquered; they were not taken illegally.

I thought it was very nice of Israel not to completely wipe out the Egyptian army they had trapped.

Don't want to loose territory? Don't go to war.


			
				meelak said:
			
		

> Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries?
> 
> From this question, it is apparent you have not traveled outside this country and your view is based on what you are seeing on TV or reading in papers. In Saudi Arabia you are free to practice any religion as long as you don't preach and the non-muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca because it is a sacred place and the only reason why you would enter this small city is to pray at the holy place. If you are not a muslim, you are not going to pray there anyway, so there is no need for you to be there. It is same as why the regular public is not allowed on military installations. If you are affiliated with military, you have a reason to be there, if not, why should you overcrowd that place and cause logistical issues on the facility.
> 
> Also, in Saudi Arabia, the top jobs ceos of the top companies, administrators of the public sector organizations - most of them are non-muslims (you will be surpised).
> 
> Get into the details of the following islamic countries (Malaysia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia) and you will see that there are many christians and jews living side by side with the muslims.


See, by prohibiting Christians from witnessing, preaching, they are prevented from carrying out the instructions of Jesus to go into all the world teaching and making disciples. So Christians are not free to worship as they should but only free to worship as the Saudi Arabia authorities dictate. That would be like the U.S. saying it is OK for muslims to pray but only two times a day and they can't use a prayer rug and can't face mecca.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

itsbob said:
			
		

> Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. *Did Mohamed do that?* Nope.
> 
> 
> OUR savior is better then your Savior.. Nyah nyah nyah!!


You are adding nothing as usual.


----------



## meelak

2ndAmendment wrote: "You have a physical self. Right? You have a spiritual self. Right? You exist in two forms and you are only a human. You do believe God is everywhere and is all powerful and can do anything? Or is the god of Islam an inferior god that is limited? The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Adam is not limited in any way. I thought that is the God you said you worshiped? If it is, then why do Muslims profess to limit the power and presence of God?"


2ndAmendment, what you wrote above does not make sense. The physical and the spiritual is in one shape/form. In other words, if you promise somebody to meet the next day for dinner, you don't say, "You know what, my physical self will be resting tomorrow. But don't worry, my spiritual self will meet you for dinner". As stated by you, it will be putting limitation on god if he were expected or required to come down in a specific shape or form. What do you think, being capable of anything and everything, he couldn't have done it without coming in the shape of a human being. 

For those of you who are not aware, The jews, christians and the muslims all worship the same god. It is called "Alah" in Hebrew (you will see this as the first footnote in the first chapter of Genesis, translated as "Alah" in english in the bible). In Arabic, it is Allah. And in different languages, different names. The main difference between christianity and islam is that - christians believe jesus as god. Whereas muslims believe he is one of the mightiest messengers of allah, born to Mary through immaculate conception, cured the lepers, blind and brought the dead back to life with allah's leave and to him was revealed the scripture. 

Because he did the miracles like raising the dead, etc., people mistakenly started worshipping him as god even though he never claimed divinity. Look into the Hebrew source and you will not come across a single verse where he is claiming divinity. Allah then had to send the final messenger to humanity and to him was revealed the last and final testament - The holy Qur'an. 

Because Allah knew how the people beleived jesus to be god seeing his miracles, etc. He took away Muhammad's (PBUH) dad even before he was born. His mom died when he was seven. There was no mentor for him. He did not learn how to read and write. Allah with his infinite wisdom designed it this way so that people do not attribute his preachings or guidance to another wordly figure. Sincerely ask this question to yourself. How does a person who does not know how to read and write and who is a orphan and who did not have any mentors or teachers - later on comes to tell about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Ishmael, Isaac, Jesus, etc. and they are are true and no jew or christian at that time could prove him to be false. He abolished the slavery that was existence at that time - long after judaism and christianity was there. He preaches equality among men and women, responsibility towards children, family, society, etc. In those days, there was no emails or internet or books. If it is not Allah's inspiration through arch angel Gibrael, how else do you think one illeterate person was able to preach or tell people about the past with 100% accuracy. 

Some people think Islam is there only for past 1427 years. No, Islam is there from the begining with Adam. Adam was the first human being and the first prophet of islam.


----------



## meelak

2ndAmendment,
I see all your posts end with 
"Read the Bible . The Truth. The whole Truth. And nothing but the Truth."

Which bible are you asking us to read. The KJV, NSV, NISV,,,,,,,,,? I see one verse in one version but the same verse is taken away from another version. If it is word of god who gives people the right to add and take away the verses. Because they want you to read what they want. For example, in 1970s, the so-called religions "DD"s joined another 50 people of religious prominence and put together the new version and if you look into the foreword section, it says the preivous version had "grave" mistakes and they were so many. 

The Truth - Did Jesus read it and attest to the contents for its accuracy?

The Wholetruth - Then why do the verses keep disappearing and new verses keep appearing.


----------



## PJay

meelak said:
			
		

> Brother/Sister, 2ndAmendment,
> Brother, AbdulHaqq, thank you for starting the dialogue. Don't get discouraged by the name calling or other incitement. We need to share our views - I am sure there are lots of educated readers on this forum who see the value in getting to know the views from the muslims.



Why all of a sudden are you people coming out of the woodwork like a bunch roaches...or are you all one in the same? Whatever, I see your agenda.

Too, why do you say brother/sister to some here and not 2A? You live here in this country and do not consider him your brother? You say you want peace. Yeah right.

And by the way, the only views I care to see from a muslim at this point in time is you people gathering together ( as you are here ) kicking some muslim butts of those that are killing innocent people!


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2ndAmendment,

First, your claim that Christianity espouses the doctrine of monothiesm. I wanted to remind you that a critical view of the trinity has been adopted not only by the predecessor of Christianity, namely Judaism, and the antecedor to Christianity, namely Islam, but there are a plethora of sects within Christianity from its early age until the modern era that have rejected the Trinity as well. This is a point that you ignored. When you are discussing "Christian beliefs" please state which sectarian perspective you are adopting and on what grounds. There are something like 200 sects within Christianity that differ on important theological questions. In Islam, there are only a handful of sects, none of which differ greatly over the nature of God or the textual integrity of the Qur'an. Christianity, on the other hand, possesses no such uniformity. To me, this doesn't seem to be an illustration of a 'divinely revealed religion', does it? 

Secondly, with regards to your continued claim that you believe that the trinity is a manifestation of monotheism, this is patently absurd. In order to reference the Bible as an authentic narration from God, you have to first establish its textual integrity and some sort of proof that it is from God. In Islam, we believe that God not only sent His prophets (upon them be peace) who were of the utmost character, truthful, noble, eloquent, and free from sin, but he sent with them miracles as proofs that they were true representatives from God. The miracle of the Prophet MUhammad (peace be upon him) is the Qur'an which is a book that has been unchanged for 1400 years and challenges all of humanity to produce a piece of literature that is capable of breaking the laws of language, but still remaining coherent. 

Thirdly, and this is the most pertinent point. You claim that God is not divided into parts, but it is merely possible for God to divide into parts if he wanted to. 



> I never said God is divided. I said that _*if*_ God chose to divide Himself, then He can and we can do nothing about it.



This is a cop-out on your part. Just because the bible claims to believe in one god doesn't mean this is so. If something looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, in all likelihood, it is a duck. With regards to the trinity, the division of Godhood can mean one of two things: Either these parts are unified through substance or they are separate. 

You asserted that God cannot be limited and Muslims agree with this assertion. You claimed that you God isn't divided into parts and the trinity isn't a division of being, but of attributes. Lets assume arguendo that godhood is shared by a tripartite being. Previously, I argued that the parts define the whole. It is logically absurd to assume that if the parts of a being possess a certain characteristic, that the whole lacks it. You have not responded sufficiently to this claim except by muttering 'Its in the Bible' which is a form of blind faith and not a form of rational proof. If God is not three separate entities, but is divided into three separate parts, than according to Christians, he possesses contradictory elements. If God as a whole is unlimited and eternal, than his parts must be unlimited and eternal. If the parts of God are limited and temporal, than are his parts unlimited and eternal? If God is unlimited and eternal, than surely, his parts must be unlimited and eternal. Since you claim that Jesus is an integral of Godhood, this would mean that god is limited since an integral of him was born, died, and suffered in hell. * You have failed to respond to this claim except based on blind faith by referring to the Bible.* If you say 'the integral of god that existed in his creation was god' then you've placed god in his creation and have adopted a belief that is more similar to hinduism and other pagan religions than other monothiestic religions such as judaism and Islam. 

Either God is made up of parts that are not eternal and limited in which the law of non-contradiction negates his existence, or he is divided into three separate entities in which case Trinitarians are not worshipping one God, but three.

My point in this exercise was to illustrate that the claim that Muslims do not worship the God of Jews and Christians is absurd because of the glaring differences between Jewish theology and Christian theology. From the perspective of a purely neutral observe, trinitarians would be the odd one out of the three abrahamic faiths, not Islam. Islam is more cogently affiliated with the predecessor judaism in its theology. *So if anything, the question should be "Do Christians worship the god of judaism and islam?"*

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2ndAmendment,

A lot of your claims about God, His nature and attributes, are not derived from reason (some are plainly absurd and utilise weak argument to justify that which is inherently and apparently contradictory), but through blind faith in a text whose integrity you believe to be impeccable. 

In your post, you claimed that the Bible was a reliable document and cited to some statistics that might impress a novice student of theology, but won't impress minds with more capable powers of perception. 

In your previous post, you made the following claims:


> 1. The earliest portions of The New Testament date to within just 25 years of the originals.
> 
> 2. Some nearly complete books of the new testament date to within one century or less from the originals.
> 
> 3. There are nearly 25,000 complete manuscripts of the New Testament, with more than 15,000 that date to before the 7th Century A.D. (or C.E. if you prefer). These include 5,300 copies in the original Greek, over 10,000 in Latin Vulgate, 4,100 Slavic translations, 2,000 Ethiopian translations and about 1,000 other early translations.
> 
> 4. There are small differences in all those manuscripts - however, all these differences, most are a matter of spelling or word order changes that were made as the styles changed over the ages. In fact a total of only about 200 words, or 1/10 of 1 percent of the entire new testament are subject to more than trivial differences.
> 
> 5. As for the Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls show that in over 2,000 years those who copied the Old testament were so meticulous that no significant changes were made to the texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls represent a major library of over 800 total documents dating between 250 B.C. to 68 A.D. Every book of the Old Testament is included except for some minor prophets, and Esther.



Firstly, the relevant question isn't when the copies were made, but when the originals were made. 

*The earliest available manuscripts, known as P64, P67, P104 were written around 200 years after the purported death of christ.* Even if we assume the textual integrity of the this manuscript, it was merely fragments and covered little of the New Testament. 

P4 was made of Luke 1:58-59; 1:62-2:1, 6-7; 3:8-4:2, 29-32, 34-35; 5:3-8; 5:30-6:16.

P64  was made of Matthew 26:7-8, 10, 14-15, 22-23, 31-33.

P67 was made of Matthew 3:9, 15; 5:20-22, 25-28.

If the earliest biblical manuscripts were written 200 years after the death of christ and were mere fragments, than what does that say about the textual integrity of the Bible as a whole? 

Secondly, the relevant question isn't how many copies exist, but the reliability of the originals existed. If the originals were defective, then obviously, the copies will be defective as well. 

If the original manuscripts were written hundreds of years after the existence of Christ, how could they possibly be construed as being 'reliable' and 'authentic'? Furthermore, the earliest manuscripts weren't even discovered until the 19th and 20th centuries which means that for the overwhelming majority of Christianity's history, the supposed word of God was being defectively circulated!!!! If God is so powerful, why couldn't He preserve His own book? Why did He allow 2000 years to pass before the "comprehensive" version of His book was revealed?

Furthermore, you've exaggerated the relevance of these ancient manuscripts. 

For example, only 8% of the Greek manuscripts cover most of the new testament. The remaining 92% of the Greek manuscripts are only fragments. 
(Source: L. M. McDonald and S. E. Porter, Early Christianity And Its Sacred Literature, 2000, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.: Peabody (MA), p. 27.)

Thus, it doesn't matter if there are 25,000 manuscripts if the overwhelming majority of them were copies whose originals are lost and are comprised of fragments. 

Lastly, the primary method of textual reconstruction of these fragments was done through from the perspective of the Latin manuscripts which we all know weren't even in existence until the 4th century, casting doubt as to the authenticity of the earlier texts as being a reliable interpretation.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## meelak

itsbob said:
			
		

> Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. *Did Mohamed do that?* Nope.
> 
> 
> OUR savior is better then your Savior.. Nyah nyah nyah!!




Did Mohammed do that?

That is exactly the point. If he did that, people will again make the same mistake and start worshiping him as god. 

When you are going in the right direction, you don't need to make any turns. Only when you are going in the wrong direction that you need to change the course. Since people mistakenly beleived the messayah to be the god, god had to send another messayah - the last and final messenger to the whole humanity. 

Read John chapter 14 again and you see will see that jesus is foretelling the people of the coming of mohammed who will confirm what jesus preached and show them the new signs/message (which according to jesus the people did not have the comprehension to understand those at that time). Some christians believe this to be the holy spirit. If it is infact the holy spirit what new signs/messages did the holy spirit give which jesus did not give in his time? 

1) When jesus was on the cross, what did he say

Matthew chap 27 verse[46] "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Eli, Eli when translated to Arabic Alah, Alah!! Jesus cried to god. If he is god, why would he have to cry to god and ask god why god has forsaken him. What does this prove? Verse 47 says, people heard him calling to god.

2) What about John Chap 20 and verse
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here jesus is saying my god and your god. If he was god, why would he say my god and your god. This means his god and other people's god are the same and he is not the god. 

3) Here is yet another proof that Jesus did not pay for everybody's sins.

Look into Matthew Chap 7 Verse
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The above verses say who ever does righteous deeds that god prescribes us to do only will enter paradise and it is the same belief of the muslims as well. Also, to the people who called him Lord/God, in his second coming, he will not even recognize them and will ask them to get away. 

Also, we muslims believe jesus was raised up alive and he will come again.


----------



## meelak

If that is the case, when Iraq fought with Kuwait and took over Kuwait, why did we go to liberate Kuwait. Iraq was not willing to give Kuwait back? So why didn't we say - Oh they captured it and it is theirs. But no, all the countries formed a coalition and went and liberated Kuwait (which is a sign of civilized world).

We cannot chose who we liberate and who we not liberate. If we call ourselves unbiased, freedom loving, just and hold ourselves to higher moral grounds, then why did we not liberate palestine?


----------



## Pete

Isn't America grand?  Muslims and Christians can come together and attempt to debunk each others religious views and Christians don't hunt down the Muslims and Shoot them 8 times, slit thier throats then jam 2 knives into their torso pinning a note threatening others to stop being critical of Christianity.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/Gogh126.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

This is what happens when you are critical of Islam in Europe.


----------



## Baja28

meelak said:
			
		

> If that is the case, when Iraq fought with Kuwait and took over Kuwait, why did we go to liberate Kuwait. Iraq was not willing to give Kuwait back? So why didn't we say - Oh they captured it and it is theirs. But no, all the countries formed a coalition and went and liberated Kuwait (which is a sign of civilized world).
> 
> We cannot chose who we liberate and who we not liberate. If we call ourselves unbiased, freedom loving, just and hold ourselves to higher moral grounds, then why did we not liberate palestine?


Kuwait did not attack Iraq and lose dum dum.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2ndAmendment, 

With regards to your claim that 'islam spread by the sword and imposed slavery', this is a argument is weak just like the rest of the ones you've been conjuring up today. The fact that you didn't even bother quoting a reputable historical source for a timeline that listed a bunch of dates doesn't mean anything. For example, the mere fact that Muslims conquered Jerusalem doesn't mean that it was done violently. 

Here is the peace treaty between the Second Caliph Umar (may God elevate him) and the Jewish and Christian inhabitants of Jerusalem:

_“This is the protection which the servant of God, Umar, the Ruler of the Believers, has granted to the people of Jerusalem. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion..._

The French historian Michaud (1767-1839), who traveled in the Middle East and wrote a book on the Crusades called Bibliotheque des Croisades (Library of the Crusades), says on the conquest of Jerusalem by the Crusaders in 1099, “The Muslims were massacred in the streets and in the houses. Some fled from death by precipitating themselves from the ramparts; others crowded for shelter into the palaces, the towers and above all, in the mosques where they could not conceal themselves from the Crusaders. The Crusaders, masters of the Mosque of Umar, where the Muslims defended themselves for sometime, renewed their deplorable scenes which disgraced the conquest of Titus. The infantry and the cavalry rushed pell-mell among the fugitives. Amid the most horrid tumult, nothing was heard but the groans and cries of death; the victors trod over heaps of corpses in pursuing those who vainly attempted to escape.”

When the Muslims re-conquered Jerusalem in 1187, they again showed extreme mercy and kindness. The ruler at the time, Sultan Salahuddin Ayyubi, gave free pardon to the Christians in the city. Only the soldiers were required to pay a very small fee. However, the Sultan himself paid the fee for about ten thousand people. His brother paid it for seven thousand people. Salahuddin also allocated one of the gates of the city for people who were too poor to pay anything to leave from there.

These historical facts completely refute your claim on this one particular instance. In fact, if necessary, an entire thread could be dedicated in refuting the absurd allegations raised in your hitherto uncited article. 

However, instead of doing so, I will argue general principles that will refute your claims, one by one.

*Firstly, Islam itself prohibits forced conversions.*

The Qur'an itself says "There is no compulsion in religion." Contrary to the Pope's erroneous claim that this verse was an early verse, this verse was a later verse revealed during the Madinan period where the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) had established a government. The verse was a prohibition on him and his followers to force people to convert. 

*Secondly, historians of notable repute agree that Islam spread peacefully, not by force.*

_"The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare. Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary."
- p 198 of "A History of Islamic Societies" by Ira Lapidus -_

Professor Thomas Arnold has dedicated an entire book on the topic of the peaceful spread of Islam entitled "The Spread of Islam in the World"

* Thirdly, even today, Islam is spreading peacefully, all through out the world*

In fact, over 60,000 people converted to Islam in Rwanda.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53018-2002Sep22.html

Note how 4 clergyman from the Catholic church were charged with assisting genocide and face charges of war crimes. 

 Christians had actively participated in the a genocide that resulted in the death of 800,000 people. This isn't from a few centuries ago, this is within the past decade.

Lastly, Christianity has a history of forced conversions during the Crusades, Inquisition, and the entire history of colonization where Christopher Columbus forced thousands of Native Americans into slavery and Christianity. Lets not forget that the same thing happened to African Americans, of which 20% are estimated to have been Muslim who were forced into Christianity. Some as recent as 150 years ago.  

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## PJay

meelak said:
			
		

> If that is the case, when Iraq fought with Kuwait and took over Kuwait, why did we go to liberate Kuwait. Iraq was not willing to give Kuwait back? So why didn't we say - Oh they captured it and it is theirs. But no, all the countries formed a coalition and went and liberated Kuwait (which is a sign of civilized world).
> 
> We cannot chose who we liberate and who we not liberate. If we call ourselves unbiased, freedom loving, just and hold ourselves to higher moral grounds, then why did we not liberate palestine?



Keep right on posting...please do not stop. Your agenda keeps shining more bright...


----------



## Baja28

Pete said:
			
		

> <a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/Gogh126.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
> 
> This is what happens when you are critical of Islam in Europe.


But Islam is such a peaceful religion.


----------



## meelak

Pete said:
			
		

> Isn't America grand?  Muslims and Christians can come together and attempt to debunk each others religious views and Christians don't hunt down the Muslims and Shoot them 8 times, slit thier throats then jam 2 knives into their torso pinning a note threatening others to stop being critical of Christianity.
> 
> <a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/Gogh126.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
> 
> This is what happens when you are critical of Islam in Europe.



You are right Pete. But a true muslim will practice what allah prescribes in the holy qur'an

Qur'an 16:125 "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." 

We are asked to invite people in a gracious way not forecefully because you cannot force people in the matter of faith and qur'an also says the same in the following verse. 

Qur'an "2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

America is a beautiful country. I am glad we can all share our views on this forum in a civilized manner.


----------



## Pete

Baja28 said:
			
		

> But Islam is such a peaceful religion.


I think that is what they named the knives that were jammed into Theo Van Gogh's rib cage "Love" and "Peace"


----------



## Pete

meelak said:
			
		

> You are right Pete. But a true muslim will practice what allah prescribes in the holy qur'an
> 
> Qur'an 16:125 "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."
> 
> We are asked to invite people in a gracious way not forecefully because you cannot force people in the matter of faith and qur'an also says the same in the following verse.
> 
> Qur'an "2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
> 
> America is a beautiful country. I am glad we can all share our views on this forum in a civilized manner.


It's a shame so many in Islam don't read and comply with the qur'an.  Islam is viewed far and wide as the religion of bloodletting and violence because of their actions and not words.


----------



## Baja28

meelak said:
			
		

> You are right Pete. But a true muslim will practice what allah prescribes in the holy qur'an
> 
> Qur'an 16:125 "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."
> 
> *We are asked to invite people in a gracious way not forecefully because you cannot force people in the matter of faith * and qur'an also says the same in the following verse.
> 
> Qur'an "2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."


Oopsie..... we seem to have a contradiction in our peaceful quran.... Wonder what Theo did. 



> The Qur'an unequivocally prohibits the murder of innocents:
> 
> ...whoever kills a soul - *unless for a soul[1] or for corruption * [done] in the land[2] - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Pete, 

As a Muslim, I condemn the attacks on innocents just for the speech or beliefs they've espoused. Islam doesn't recognize acts of vigilantism and terror. 

As has been repeatedly stated through out this thread, Islam condemns terrorism and advocates the death penalty for those that partake in it.

The same types of smear tactics that you are engaging in can be done in the name of Christianity:

*Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India*
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...&u=/afp/20041002/ts_afp/india_northeast_blast

*Eric Rudolph: Christian Terrorist*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1196-2003Jun1?language=printer

*Seattle Synagogue Shooter Was Christian*
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/279424_convert30ww.html

The group known as the "Seas of David" who planned attacks on the Sears Tower (which was designed by a Muslim) "train through the Bible... not only physically but mentally"

_"Given the group's reported affinity for al-Qaeda, what makes this incident especially interesting is the fact that Seas of David is not a Muslim organization. By all accounts, the group uses Muslim discourse and symbols. Yet it also relies heavily on Jewish and Christian discourse and symbols. This includes what is described as a homemade Star of David arm patch worn by its estimated 40 members (Miami Herald, June 23).* Friends and family of the suspects claim that none of them are Muslims but in fact are practicing Christians, some devout. Batiste's father, a Christian preacher in Louisiana, *claims that his son may be emotionally disturbed, but that he is certainly not a terrorist. Local sources say that Batiste could often be seen walking with a cane and wearing a black robe (Miami Herald, June 24, June 25). "_
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370059

Should we start talking about how many *Catholic priests molest children?*

Or perhaps about *mormon's abusing children through polygamous relationships?*

Or how about *radical Christian attacks on abortion clinics?*

Or what about the *Protestant-Catholic fighting in Ireland? *

Or how about *General Boykin's reference to the war in iraq as being a 'crusade'?*

Or how about this guy:



> *A Roman Catholic priest accused of taking part in the 1994 Rwandan genocide has gone on trial at the UN war crimes tribunal in Tanzania.*
> 
> Athanase Seromba refused to appear in court, accusing the tribunal of bias.
> 
> He is the first Catholic priest to go on trial at the tribunal, set up after the slaughter of some 800,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus.
> 
> He denies charges that he organised the massacre of more than 2,000 Tutsis at a church in the west of Rwanda.
> 
> Former Rwandan army chief of staff Major-General Augustin Bizimungu also boycotted the start of his separate, trial on Monday.
> 
> They are unhappy at plans to speed up the work of the tribunal in the town of Arusha, by transferring those found guilty, and possibly trials, to Rwanda.
> 
> They say that, as Hutus, they will face "victor's justice" in Rwandan, where key government positions are now held by Tutsis.
> 
> Brutal
> 
> The BBC's Rob Walker in Kigali says that today vast mounds of earth and concrete are all that remain of the church at Nyange.
> 
> Flowers and a row of crosses mark the site, but otherwise it has been left untouched for a decade - one of Rwanda's countless monuments to the dead.
> 
> 
> 5,000 Tutsis were massacred at Ntarama Church, today it is preserved as a memorial site
> 
> Rwanda's religious reflections
> But the killings here, even by the standards of the genocide, were particularly brutal, our correspondent says.
> 
> As Hutu militias stood guard outside, the church doors were locked, then bulldozers arrived to demolish the building.
> 
> More than 2,000 Tutsis sheltering inside were crushed to death.
> 
> It is the parish priest, Father Athanase Seromba, 41, who now stands accused of directing this massacre of Tutsis from among his own congregation.
> 
> Faster justice
> 
> Rob Walker says the start of Father Seromba's trial at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda will revive heated debate about the role of the Catholic Church during the dark days of 1994.
> 
> The Catholic hierarchy in Rwanda had close ties to extremist politicians in the run up to the genocide and some priests like Father Seromba are accused of actively assisting the Hutu militias.
> 
> 
> ARUSHA TRIBUNAL
> 20 guilty verdicts
> 20 suspects on trial
> 23 suspects awaiting trial
> Source: ICTR
> In 2001, two nuns were found guilty of taking part in the genocide in a Belgian court.
> 
> The Vatican accepts there are individuals in the church who committed crimes, but controversially, it says the Church as an institution cannot be held to blame.
> 
> At the time of the genocide, some 60% of Rwandans were Catholic but some have since converted to Islam, saying the Church failed them in 1994.
> 
> Rwanda's government has criticised the slow pace at which the Arusha tribunal has worked.
> 
> But our correspondent says that it has speeded up its work in the past year.
> 
> It is supposed to complete all investigations by the end of this year and all trials by the end of 2008.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3671464.stm



The list is endless. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Pete, Baja, et al,

Its a pity that some people can't use their intellect in discussions, but have to resort to blind faith and smear campaigns. These tactics won't weaken my resolve to present my faith in an unbiased fashion. 

What's the matter? Can't use your mind to defend your claims? 

The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim. 

 

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## vraiblonde

meelak said:
			
		

> then why did we not liberate palestine?


I can't believe you even said that.  And you were doing so well, too.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete,
> 
> As a Muslim, I condemn the attacks on innocents just for the speech or beliefs they've espoused. Islam doesn't recognize acts of vigilantism and terror.
> 
> As has been repeatedly stated through out this thread, Islam condemns terrorism and advocates the death penalty for those that partake in it.
> 
> The same types of smear tactics that you are engaging in can be done in the name of Christianity:
> 
> *Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India*
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...&u=/afp/20041002/ts_afp/india_northeast_blast
> 
> *Eric Rudolph: Christian Terrorist*
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1196-2003Jun1?language=printer
> 
> *Seattle Synagogue Shooter Was Christian*
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/279424_convert30ww.html
> 
> The group known as the "Seas of David" who planned attacks on the Sears Tower (which was designed by a Muslim) "train through the Bible... not only physically but mentally"
> 
> _"Given the group's reported affinity for al-Qaeda, what makes this incident especially interesting is the fact that Seas of David is not a Muslim organization. By all accounts, the group uses Muslim discourse and symbols. Yet it also relies heavily on Jewish and Christian discourse and symbols. This includes what is described as a homemade Star of David arm patch worn by its estimated 40 members (Miami Herald, June 23).* Friends and family of the suspects claim that none of them are Muslims but in fact are practicing Christians, some devout. Batiste's father, a Christian preacher in Louisiana, *claims that his son may be emotionally disturbed, but that he is certainly not a terrorist. Local sources say that Batiste could often be seen walking with a cane and wearing a black robe (Miami Herald, June 24, June 25). "_
> http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370059
> 
> Should we start talking about how many *Catholic priests molest children?*
> 
> Or perhaps about *mormon's abusing children through polygamous relationships?*
> 
> Or how about *radical Christian attacks on abortion clinics?*
> 
> Or what about the *Protestant-Catholic fighting in Ireland? *
> 
> Or how about *General Boykin's reference to the war in iraq as being a 'crusade'?*
> 
> Or how about this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> The list is endless.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


Right here is the difference 

>>>>>>>>*A Roman Catholic priest accused of taking part in the 1994 Rwandan genocide has gone on trial at the UN war crimes tribunal in Tanzania.* <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

At a "trial" being tried and "punished".  Talk to me when Hezbollah leaders are tried in a court and punished for kidnapping and rocketing Israel.  Talk to me when Hamas leaders give up the leaders of groups who send suicide bombers to kill innocent people.


----------



## Kain99

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete, Baja, et al,
> 
> Its a pity that some people can't use their intellect in discussions, but have to resort to blind faith and smear campaigns. These tactics won't weaken my resolve to present my faith in an unbiased fashion.
> 
> What's the matter? Can't use your mind to defend your claims?
> 
> The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


You are absolutely right, my friend. 

I truly understand your cause but we watched our brothers flesh burn and bleed before our eyes.  

This is going to take understanding on both sides.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Pete,

I'm not sure what your level of reading is, but perhaps you should spend more time reading the news:news.

I await your response on the refutation of the trinity, unless you want to base your belief in blind faith and not reason.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

PS: If it seems that I am harsh with you, I apologize. However, if you are going to aggressively make false claims about my faith, I will politely but aggressively refute your claims using logic and proof, not blind faith and slander.


----------



## Baja28

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete, Baja, et al,
> 
> Its a pity that some people can't use their intellect in discussions, but have to resort to blind faith and smear campaigns.* Not smear campaings, COLD HARD TRUTH!!!  * These tactics won't weaken my resolve to present my faith in an unbiased fashion.
> 
> What's the matter? Can't use your mind to defend your claims?
> 
> The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. *You can claim anything you want but over the last 20 years, wars have been fought because of islam.  Indisputable facts negating all of your claims!!  * However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim. *if the finger is poisoning the body, cut off the finger.... *
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


What's the matter? Can't islam use peace vs. terrorism to sell their wares?

Defend what claims??  Everything posted is FACT.  

Islam kills....plain & simple.  

Islam created the 3rd world war.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim.


I do not advocate violence against Muslims in general.  And let me tell you right off the bat that I am not a Christian, and I won't spout Christian rhetoric or use Jesus to form my opinion.  I got no dog in the religious fight.

When the most visible Muslims in the world are the ones sawing some poor guy's head off and dragging dead bodies through the streets, chanting with joy, you can't hardly blame the viewing public if they get a negative impression of the religion.  Especially when not only are said sawers and draggers doing it in the _name_ of their religion, but their supposedly peaceful religion mates are deafeningly silent.

You say that some Muslims do condemn terrorism, and I believe you.  I've seen it myself.  But one would think that 1.8 BILLION people could drown out a few million.  Unfortunately they don't seem to be doing so.  So it's a natural assumption that the majority of those 1.8 BILLION don't have a problem with what the terrorists are doing, or they would certainly be able to drown them out.

Again, I give you Fred Phelps as a Christian example.  Mr. Phelps claims to be a "man of God", yet his religion-mates are THE FIRST ONES to condemn him, loudly and without equivocation.  They have absolutely no problem making their dissenting voices heard in protest of this man.  Very few even think he's "got a point" - they not only despise his actions, but despise that he calls himself a "Christian".  And there is not one single person who follows the news who has any doubt about how Christians feel about Mr. Phelps and his band of merry malcontents.

Can you say the same for Islam?  No, you can't - because it doesn't happen in large enough numbers to make a firm statement.  And Phelps isn't even killing anyone!  He's protesting funerals!

If Muslims suffer from bad PR, it's their own fault for not speaking up and making their voices heard.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Baja,

Which wars have been caused by Muslims?

Military Death Toll 	War 	Dates
*1 	20,000,000 	Second World War 	1937-45
2 	8,500,000 	First World War 	1914-18
3 	1,200,000 	Korean War 	1950-53
4 	1,200,000 	Chinese Civil War 	1945-49
5 	1,200,000 	Vietnam War 	1965-73*
6 	850,000 	Iran-Iraq War 	1980-88
7 	800,000 	Russian Civil War 	1918-21
8 	400,000 	Chinese Civil War 	1927-37
9 	385,000 	French Indochina 	1945-54
10 	200,000 	Mexican Revolution 	1911-20
10 	200,000 	Spanish Civil War 	1936-39
12 	160,000 	French-Algerian War 	1954-62
13 	150,000 	Afghanistan 	1980-89
14 	130,000 	Russo-Japanese War 	1904-05
15 	100,000 	Riffian War 	1921-26
15 	100,000 	First Sudanese Civil War 	1956-72
15 	100,000 	Russo-Polish War 	1919-20
15 	100,000 	Biafran War 	1967-70
19 	90,000 	Chaco War 	1932-35
20 	75,000 	Abyssinian War 	1935-36

The only wars involving Muslims were:
- The Iran-Iraq War 
- The French-Algerian war
- Afghanistan
- The First Sudanese Civil war
- Abyssinian War

Lets examine these in more detail:
- The Iran and Iraq was instigated by the US. We used Saddam Hussein, who was then our ally, by giving him biological and chemical weapons which he used to attack Iran which had undergone a revolution as a reaction against a dictator we installed after the CIA had assassinated his democratically elected predecessor. In fact, we not only supported the Iraqis, but were giving weapons to both sides. This became known as 'The Iran-Contra Scandal'. 

- Afghanistan - the cause of the war was the soviet union attacking afghanistan, not the other way around. 

- The French-Algerian War was a war of independence against French imperialism that left 70,000 Muslims dead. 

- the sudanese first civil war occured when the government alternated between fascist and communist governments, not islamic ones. 

- The abyssinian war was between Italy which invaded this region and attempted to colonize it. Hardly the works of Muslims, eh?

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Kain99

Kain99 said:
			
		

> You are absolutely right, my friend.
> 
> I truly understand your cause but we watched our brothers flesh burn and bleed before our eyes.
> 
> This is going to take understanding on both sides.


DUDE!!!!! You completely ignored my post!  "Gentle goes the dove."


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete, Baja, et al,
> 
> Its a pity that some people can't use their intellect in discussions, but have to resort to blind faith and smear campaigns. These tactics won't weaken my resolve to present my faith in an unbiased fashion.
> 
> What's the matter? Can't use your mind to defend your claims?
> 
> The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


And in this thread I have presented example after example after example of organized, sanctioned brutality the West has endured at the hands of Muslim terrorists.

I do not refute what the qu'ran says.  I believe you totally that it condemns terrorism, what I am saying is terrorism is ignored, sanctioned and cheered despite what you and the qu'ran states.

For the record, I have not uttered a single word of threat in any way towards Muslims.  I respect your right to speak about or practise your religion however you wish.  Conversely you have to respect my right to think you are trying to pass of something for what it is not.


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I do not advocate violence against Muslims in general.  And let me tell you right off the bat that I am not a Christian, and I won't spout Christian rhetoric or use Jesus to form my opinion.  I got no dog in the religious fight.
> 
> When the most visible Muslims in the world are the ones sawing some poor guy's head off and dragging dead bodies through the streets, chanting with joy, you can't hardly blame the viewing public if they get a negative impression of the religion.  Especially when not only are said sawers and draggers doing it in the _name_ of their religion, but their supposedly peaceful religion mates are deafeningly silent.
> 
> You say that some Muslims do condemn terrorism, and I believe you.  I've seen it myself.  But one would think that 1.8 BILLION people could drown out a few million.  Unfortunately they don't seem to be doing so.  So it's a natural assumption that the majority of those 1.8 BILLION don't have a problem with what the terrorists are doing, or they would certainly be able to drown them out.
> 
> Again, I give you Fred Phelps as a Christian example.  Mr. Phelps claims to be a "man of God", yet his religion-mates are THE FIRST ONES to condemn him, loudly and without equivocation.  They have absolutely no problem making their dissenting voices heard in protest of this man.  Very few even think he's "got a point" - they not only despise his actions, but despise that he calls himself a "Christian".  And there is not one single person who follows the news who has any doubt about how Christians feel about Mr. Phelps and his band of merry malcontents.
> 
> Can you say the same for Islam?  No, you can't - because it doesn't happen in large enough numbers to make a firm statement.  And Phelps isn't even killing anyone!  He's protesting funerals!
> 
> If Muslims suffer from bad PR, it's their own fault for not speaking up and making their voices heard.



Dear Vraiblonde,

You raise some very potent points. 

Firstly, I feel that there are several explanations to account for the lack of a good public relations response.

One explanation, and this is probably the strongest, is that Islam doesn't have a 'church'. Islam is an organized religion, but it lacks a corporate entity that is considered 'orthodox' and authoritative. In Islam, any person who is educated in Islamic theology and jurisprudence is a representative of our faith. We don't have a 'pope' or a vatican. Makkah and Madinah are holy places of worship, they aren't centers of power or clergy. Since God is directly accessible to believers, we don't believe in the need for a clergy. If we want to repent, we repent directly. Any Muslim can lead prayers or give a sermon, etc. 

Another possible explanation is the weak nature of post-colonial states. Almost every single Muslim state today was a former colony. Many of these states had a hard time standing up after they were granted independence. Either these states lacked a centralized government or their government was too centralized, each of which isn't conducive to the free exchange of information within a society. In a lot of Muslim countries, the media was either a state-run enterprise or a corporate operation run by powerful families that had a lot of influence on the state. The invention and widespread use of the internet, of course, is breaking down many boundaries. 

In my opinion, actions speak louder than words. 

I previously published an article about a Muslim informer who infiltrated a terrorist cell in Canada.

My fiancee works for a company that translates Arabic documents from Iraq in order to identify security threats, which it then passes on to other intelligence agencies. 

I don't think its true that Muslims aren't doing enough in the war on terrorism. Just today, the Pakistani government attacked an Al Qaeda school. 

If you read the news objectively, a reasonable observer would conclude that many Muslims have been actively working against terrorism within the Muslim world. 

As was stated before, there are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Their is an extreme, but vocal minority. They thrive not because of our faith, but the absence of our faith. They twist our scripture in order to justify their wicked and obscene political ends. This cancer within our community is being weeded out as we speak. 

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Kain99 said:
			
		

> DUDE!!!!! You completely ignored my post!  "Gentle goes the dove."



Dear Kain,

Whoops! My bad! Sorry, there were a lot posts within the past 24 hours. 

I agree. We have a lot more in common than people would imagine. The only way true dialogue and discourse can occur is if people drop the hate and listen to what the other party is saying.

Thats what the beauty of America is. We can have this discussion, we can be critical, and we can be passionate, and at the end of the day, we're all brothers of this land. 

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> And in this thread I have presented example after example after example of organized, sanctioned brutality the West has endured at the hands of Muslim terrorists.
> 
> I do not refute what the qu'ran says.  I believe you totally that it condemns terrorism, what I am saying is terrorism is ignored, sanctioned and cheered despite what you and the qu'ran states.
> 
> For the record, I have not uttered a single word of threat in any way towards Muslims.  I respect your right to speak about or practise your religion however you wish.  Conversely you have to respect my right to think you are trying to pass of something for what it is not.



Dear Pete,

Who started the Crusades?
Who did the Inquisition?
Who exterminated the Native Americans, enslaved them, and forced them into Christianity?
Who enslaved Africans, brought them into America, and forced them into Christianity?
Who participated in the Rwandan genocide?
Who started both World Wars?
Who fought in Vietnam?
Who overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran and replaced it with a dictatorship that caused a revolution that established the current regime? 
Who supported Iraq and gave it biological and chemical weapons which it used on Iran, which given weapons by the same country?

What about this:
Afghan American mother shot at point-blank range say only motive they can imagine for anyone wanting her dead was the garment of her faith, her head scarf
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're naive, not ignorant.

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Kain99

Homesick said:
			
		

> Kain, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but you got to take the rose colored glasses off. That's not this persons agenda. They're sticking pins and needles. There are times you just have to fight fire with fire. Sad, but true.
> 
> Lovey dovey, just does not work. Not with these guys.


This stuff scares me.  I want to beleive that he means what he says.  I work with 27 Muslims everyday.  They don't seem to hate me.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete,
> 
> I'm not sure what your level of reading is, but perhaps you should spend more time reading the news:news.
> 
> I await your response on the refutation of the trinity, unless you want to base your belief in blind faith and not reason.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq
> 
> PS: If it seems that I am harsh with you, I apologize. However, if you are going to aggressively make false claims about my faith, I will politely but aggressively refute your claims using logic and proof, not blind faith and slander.


I don't need links to British newspapers, I thank you for providing them though. 

You shall be waiting a long time for me to discuss the trinity.  You see I am agnostic I am not even considered Christian so you cannot poke me with that barb.  I base my belief in what I see, read and witness.  Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia?  Jeddah?  Mecca?

I have not slandered anyone or anything.  I have not said one untruth.

Is this not the body of Theo Van Gogh?
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/Gogh126.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

Are those not knives in his body because he was critical of Islam?

Did Hezbollah not kidnap and then rocket Israeli towns?

Is Hamas not dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

Did Saddam not launch SCUD missiles unprovoked into Israel?

Has not the president of Iran said Israel should be wiped off the map?

have their not been demonstrations in Egypt, Syria, Iran where they called America the "great Satan" and burned our flag?

Did Syria, Jordan and Egypt not invade Israel?

Did Salmonde Rushdie not have to go into hiding because of death threats and a fatwa issued?

Did Al Qaeda not blow up 3 of our embassies?

Did Al Qaeda not blow up the USS Cole?

Did Al Qaeda high jack 4 US aircraft and kill over 3,000 people in NYC, DC and PA?

Where have I lied?  You do not have a problem with faith, your religion has a PR problem because you are here ex halting the peacefulness of Islam while your brothers are committing horrible murders.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Who started the Crusades?


I give up - who?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade



> When originally conceptualized, the aim was to *recapture* Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims


----------



## Kain99

It is kinda funny, that the Muslim guy views us all as Catholic.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete,
> 
> Who started the Crusades?
> Who did the Inquisition?
> Who exterminated the Native Americans, enslaved them, and forced them into Christianity?
> Who enslaved Africans, brought them into America, and forced them into Christianity?
> Who participated in the Rwandan genocide?
> Who started both World Wars?
> Who fought in Vietnam?
> Who overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran and replaced it with a dictatorship that caused a revolution that established the current regime?
> Who supported Iraq and gave it biological and chemical weapons which it used on Iran, which given weapons by the same country?
> 
> What about this:
> Afghan American mother shot at point-blank range say only motive they can imagine for anyone wanting her dead was the garment of her faith, her head scarf
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL
> 
> 
> I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're naive, not ignorant.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


I thank you for assuming I'm naive and not ignorant.  You know what, you are a miserable wretch.  You cannot convince me, I give you real examples why so in typical liberal fashion you insult me.  

You examples above are non sequitor with the discussion at hand.  I just gave you numerous modern examples and you come back with the Inquisition?  The crusades?  How does something that happened 900 years ago between Muslims and Europeans have anyting to do with the WTC?

You be happy being a Muslim, you go ahead and try to convince people it is the only one true religion, you go ahead and ignore the hundreds of examples of outright terrorism perpetuated by Muslims world wide in the last 50 years in the name of Allah.  I will just sit here pointing the bottom of my foot at you and fry up some pork chops for us to share. 

If you are the best Islam has to offer for "graciously" offering Islam I think they need to go back and find more recruits because you are not very good at it.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Vraiblonde,
> 
> You raise some very potent points.
> 
> Firstly, I feel that there are several explanations to account for the lack of a good public relations response.
> 
> One explanation, and this is probably the strongest, is that Islam doesn't have a 'church'.  Christianity doesn't have a 'church' either  Islam is an organized religion, but it lacks a corporate entity that is considered 'orthodox' and authoritative. In Islam, any person who is educated in Islamic theology and jurisprudence is a representative of our faith. Yep, sounds like Christianity to me  We don't have a 'pope' or a vatican. Makkah and Madinah are holy places of worship, they aren't centers of power or clergy. Not all Christians are Catholics  Since God is directly accessible to believers, we don't believe in the need for a clergy. If we want to repent, we repent directly. Any Muslim can lead prayers or give a sermon, etc.
> 
> Another possible explanation is the weak nature of post-colonial states. Almost every single Muslim state today was a former colony. Imagine that!  So was the US!  Many of these states had a hard time standing up after they were granted independence. Either these states lacked a centralized government or their government was too centralized, each of which isn't conducive to the free exchange of information within a society. Are you familiar with our US Civil War?  In a lot of Muslim countries, the media was either a state-run enterprise or a corporate operation run by powerful families that had a lot of influence on the state. The invention and widespread use of the internet, of course, is breaking down many boundaries.
> 
> In my opinion, actions speak louder than words. I agree.
> 
> I previously published an article about a Muslim informer who infiltrated a terrorist cell in Canada.
> 
> My fiancee works for a company that translates Arabic documents from Iraq in order to identify security threats, which it then passes on to other intelligence agencies.
> 
> I don't think its true that Muslims aren't doing enough in the war on terrorism. Just today, the Pakistani government attacked an Al Qaeda school.  I saw that - #1, what took them so long?  Can you imagine a terrorist training camp operating in the US without the government's knowledge?  Me either.
> 
> If you read the news objectively, a reasonable observer would conclude that many Muslims have been actively working against terrorism within the Muslim world.    I believe you because, again, I've seen this myself.  But it's obviously not enough or Muslims wouldn't be having PR problems.
> 
> As was stated before, there are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Their is an extreme, but vocal minority. They thrive not because of our faith, but the absence of our faith. They twist our scripture in order to justify their wicked and obscene political ends. This cancer within our community is being weeded out as we speak.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq



Read please:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0331-03.htm



> Television pictures showed one incinerated body being kicked and stamped on by a member of the jubilant crowd, while others dragged a blackened body down the road by its feet.
> 
> As one body lay burning on the ground, an Iraqi came and doused it with petrol, sending flames soaring.
> 
> At least two bodies were tied to cars and pulled through the streets, witnesses said.
> 
> "This is the fate of all Americans who come to Falluja," said Mohammad Nafik, one of the crowd surrounding the bodies.
> 
> Some body parts were pulled off and left hanging from a telephone cable, while two incinerated bodies were later strung from a bridge and left dangling there.
> 
> A young boy beat one of the incinerated bodies after it was pulled down with his shoe as a crowd cheered.
> 
> "I am happy to see this. The Americans are occupying us so this is what will happen," said Mohammad, 12, looking on.
> 
> *As the victims lay burning, a crowd of around 150 men chanted "Long live Islam" and "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Greatest") while flashing victory signs. *


Can you even remotely imagine something like this happening in the US?  Me either.  Which is why so many Americans can't relate to Muslims.  Our troops are over there actively at war, and they do not do things like this.  In fact, if they so much as embarrass or humiliate a prisoner, they get in a serious amount of trouble.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse


----------



## vraiblonde

Abdul, I equate this with black artists who make music videos about being gangstas who kill cops, and call their women #####es and hos, then get angry when white people think they're a bunch of animals.  Sometimes they'll even go as far as to threaten violence to their detractors, which reaffirms the original opinion.

Don't blame the people who respond to what's put in their face - blame the people who put the message out there in the first place.


----------



## Hessian

*Yeah...what he said...*

Looking through the pages of postings from our present 5th columnists, I have to ask myself a serious question:
on the surface they sing a song of peace, discussion, dialogue if you will. They proclaim the freedoms they enjoy here...

But,
Disprove this:
*Do you believe Jews were warned ahead of the 9/11 attacks?
*Are you hoping in the return of the Mahdi? (to avenge all the wrongs done against Islam)
*Do you believe Sha'ara law should be imposed on the United States and the sooner the better?
*The best thing for the middle east is the temporary framework of democracy to be installed because then the people will vote to replace it with an Imam based theocracy.
*The crimes in Chechnya, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, etc should always have tougher penalties on the Christian instigators who come there as "people of the book" and try to decieve children and women away from the One true Faith of Islam. Mercy belongs only to those who adhere to Mohammed's teachings.
*You will never call or write the Saudi embassy demanding they halt the publication of school books portraying the Jews as blood-drinking descendents of monkeys. Some of which are in the Islamic schools near DC.

thoughts? denials? 
You know your numbers are growing by thousands weekly so don't go soft here...you're winning: come on and stand firm on those beliefs, don't back-pedal and apologize for the messy incidents in a few places around the world. Allah will reward you for your courage won't he?


----------



## abdulhaqq

Which wars have been caused by Muslims?

Military Death Toll War Dates
1 20,000,000 Second World War 1937-45
2 8,500,000 First World War 1914-18
3 1,200,000 Korean War 1950-53
4 1,200,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49
5 1,200,000 Vietnam War 1965-73
6 850,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88
7 800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21
8 400,000 Chinese Civil War 1927-37
9 385,000 French Indochina 1945-54
10 200,000 Mexican Revolution 1911-20
10 200,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39
12 160,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62
13 150,000 Afghanistan 1980-89
14 130,000 Russo-Japanese War 1904-05
15 100,000 Riffian War 1921-26
15 100,000 First Sudanese Civil War 1956-72
15 100,000 Russo-Polish War 1919-20
15 100,000 Biafran War 1967-70
19 90,000 Chaco War 1932-35
20 75,000 Abyssinian War 1935-36

The only wars involving Muslims were:
- The Iran-Iraq War
- The French-Algerian war
- Afghanistan
- The First Sudanese Civil war
- Abyssinian War

Lets examine these in more detail:
- The Iran and Iraq was instigated by the US. We used Saddam Hussein, who was then our ally, by giving him biological and chemical weapons which he used to attack Iran which had undergone a revolution as a reaction against a dictator we installed after the CIA had assassinated his democratically elected predecessor. In fact, we not only supported the Iraqis, but were giving weapons to both sides. This became known as 'The Iran-Contra Scandal'.

- Afghanistan - the cause of the war was the soviet union attacking afghanistan, not the other way around.

- The French-Algerian War was a war of independence against French imperialism that left 70,000 Muslims dead.

- the sudanese first civil war occured when the government alternated between fascist and communist governments, not islamic ones.

- The abyssinian war was between Italy which invaded this region and attempted to colonize it. Hardly the works of Muslims, eh?

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...northeast_blast

Eric Rudolph: Christian Terrorist
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...anguage=printer

Seattle Synagogue Shooter Was Christian
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local...onvert30ww.html

The group known as the "Seas of David" who planned attacks on the Sears Tower (which was designed by a Muslim) "train through the Bible... not only physically but mentally"

"Given the group's reported affinity for al-Qaeda, what makes this incident especially interesting is the fact that Seas of David is not a Muslim organization. By all accounts, the group uses Muslim discourse and symbols. Yet it also relies heavily on Jewish and Christian discourse and symbols. This includes what is described as a homemade Star of David arm patch worn by its estimated 40 members (Miami Herald, June 23). Friends and family of the suspects claim that none of them are Muslims but in fact are practicing Christians, some devout. Batiste's father, a Christian preacher in Louisiana, claims that his son may be emotionally disturbed, but that he is certainly not a terrorist. Local sources say that Batiste could often be seen walking with a cane and wearing a black robe (Miami Herald, June 24, June 25). "
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/...ticleid=2370059

Should we start talking about how many Catholic priests molest children?

Or perhaps about mormon's abusing children through polygamous relationships?

Or how about radical Christian attacks on abortion clinics?

Or what about the Protestant-Catholic fighting in Ireland?

Or how about General Boykin's reference to the war in iraq as being a 'crusade'?

Or how about this guy:

Quote:
A Roman Catholic priest accused of taking part in the 1994 Rwandan genocide has gone on trial at the UN war crimes tribunal in Tanzania.

Athanase Seromba refused to appear in court, accusing the tribunal of bias.

He is the first Catholic priest to go on trial at the tribunal, set up after the slaughter of some 800,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus.

He denies charges that he organised the massacre of more than 2,000 Tutsis at a church in the west of Rwanda.

Former Rwandan army chief of staff Major-General Augustin Bizimungu also boycotted the start of his separate, trial on Monday.

They are unhappy at plans to speed up the work of the tribunal in the town of Arusha, by transferring those found guilty, and possibly trials, to Rwanda.

They say that, as Hutus, they will face "victor's justice" in Rwandan, where key government positions are now held by Tutsis.

Brutal

The BBC's Rob Walker in Kigali says that today vast mounds of earth and concrete are all that remain of the church at Nyange.

Flowers and a row of crosses mark the site, but otherwise it has been left untouched for a decade - one of Rwanda's countless monuments to the dead.


5,000 Tutsis were massacred at Ntarama Church, today it is preserved as a memorial site

Rwanda's religious reflections
But the killings here, even by the standards of the genocide, were particularly brutal, our correspondent says.

As Hutu militias stood guard outside, the church doors were locked, then bulldozers arrived to demolish the building.

More than 2,000 Tutsis sheltering inside were crushed to death.

It is the parish priest, Father Athanase Seromba, 41, who now stands accused of directing this massacre of Tutsis from among his own congregation.

Faster justice

Rob Walker says the start of Father Seromba's trial at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda will revive heated debate about the role of the Catholic Church during the dark days of 1994.

The Catholic hierarchy in Rwanda had close ties to extremist politicians in the run up to the genocide and some priests like Father Seromba are accused of actively assisting the Hutu militias.


ARUSHA TRIBUNAL
20 guilty verdicts
20 suspects on trial
23 suspects awaiting trial
Source: ICTR
In 2001, two nuns were found guilty of taking part in the genocide in a Belgian court.

The Vatican accepts there are individuals in the church who committed crimes, but controversially, it says the Church as an institution cannot be held to blame.

At the time of the genocide, some 60% of Rwandans were Catholic but some have since converted to Islam, saying the Church failed them in 1994.

Rwanda's government has criticised the slow pace at which the Arusha tribunal has worked.

But our correspondent says that it has speeded up its work in the past year.

It is supposed to complete all investigations by the end of this year and all trials by the end of 2008.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3671464.stm


----------



## RoseRed

Vrai?   How did he find us?


----------



## abdulhaqq

Was Hitler Christian or Muslim?

_Steigmann-Gall's achievement is to have fully explored the extensive records of the Nazi era in order to illustrate these often conflicting conceptions of Christianity and to assemble the evidence in a carefully weighed evaluation. In so doing, he almost makes a convincing case. But his final view that, in light of the post-1945 ideological imperatives, Nazism had to be depicted as an evil and unchristian empire seems overdrawn. Yet he is undeniably right to point out how much Nazism owed to German Christian, especially Protestant, concepts and how much support it gained from a majority of Christians in Germany. That is certainly a sobering lesson to be drawn from this interesting and well-reasoned account._
*
Richard Steigmann-Gall. The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003. xvi + 294 pp. *
Bibliography. $30, ISBN 0-521-82371-4; 00 (cloth), ISBN .
Reviewed by: John S. Conway , Department of History, University of British Columbia.
Published by: H-German (June, 2003) 
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=55161057430311


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Pete et al,

I'd be more than happy to stop this flame copy/paste war and continue a civilized a discussion. 

Every claim you've made has been responded in full. E

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Which wars have been caused by Muslims?


The one we're fighting right now


----------



## Kain99

WTF are you doing?????? Christ!  In order to make me mad... You must be acting like a true asstard!  

This ain't about you!  It's about OUR DEAD FATHERS!!!!!!!!

Wake Up!  Apologize like ya mean it!  Your people, attacked MY people!  Act Like it, and STFU!

GD You!  I have tried soooo hard, to understand your people!  Watch the video footage!  

Who in Allah's name could stand before me, and boast?


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete et al,
> 
> I'd be more than happy to stop this flame copy/paste war and continue a civilized a discussion.
> 
> Every claim you've made has been responded in full. E
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


You are too hard headed and pompous to have a serious discussion with.  As soon as you are faced with legitimate facts you post "The qu'ran condemns terrorism" and figure that is good enough.  When it isn't you get indignant.  You have NOT refuted every claim, you have gone to your vast bank of cut and paste rebukes to "non Muslims with valid points."

Pete: What about Hezbollah and Iran?

Abdulhaqq: Well...well...what about the crusades? :booboolip:

Pete: What do the crusades 900 years ago have to do with Hezbollah kidnapping and killing Israeli's with the support of Syria and Iran?

Abdulhaqq:  You are ignorant, can't read, and naive.


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> The one we're fighting right now



I'm sorry, I don't see the connection between the war on iraq and 9/11?

In fact, President Bush has explicitly stated that there was no 9/11 connection with teh war on iraq, so when you say 'who started the war we're fighting now', which war are you referring to? 

*George Bush last night admitted that Saddam Hussein had no hand in the 9/11 terror attacks, but he asked Americans to support a war in Iraq that he said was the defining struggle of our age.*
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1870426,00.html


----------



## vraiblonde

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Wake Up!  Apologize like ya mean it!  Your people, attacked MY people!  Act Like it, and STFU!


Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.

What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation:  "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!  "  It's not particularly endearing or inspirational.


----------



## vraiblonde

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I don't see the connection between the war on iraq and 9/11?


Then why are Muslims worldwide in such a tizzy over it?  Shouldn't be any of their business, right?

And we are, in fact, still fighting in Afghanistan, against Al Qaeda, who are.....Christian?  Mmmm...no.  Jewish?  I don't think so...

It's right on the tip of my tongue....I'll think of it in a minute...

PS, in case you didn't realize, Saddam Hussein may not have had a direct hand in 9-11, but he indeed was funding the terrorists and allowing them to set up training camps in Iraq.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Was Hitler Christian or Muslim?
> 
> _Steigmann-Gall's achievement is to have fully explored the extensive records of the Nazi era in order to illustrate these often conflicting conceptions of Christianity and to assemble the evidence in a carefully weighed evaluation. In so doing, he almost makes a convincing case. But his final view that, in light of the post-1945 ideological imperatives, Nazism had to be depicted as an evil and unchristian empire seems overdrawn. Yet he is undeniably right to point out how much Nazism owed to German Christian, especially Protestant, concepts and how much support it gained from a majority of Christians in Germany. That is certainly a sobering lesson to be drawn from this interesting and well-reasoned account._
> *
> Richard Steigmann-Gall. The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003. xvi + 294 pp. *
> Bibliography. $30, ISBN 0-521-82371-4; 00 (cloth), ISBN .
> Reviewed by: John S. Conway , Department of History, University of British Columbia.
> Published by: H-German (June, 2003)
> http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=55161057430311


Are you honestly trying to draw a parrallel between Christians and Nazi's?  

You really need to go back to recruiting school  

And next you are going to wonder out loud why people here are close minded towads Islam.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> You are too hard headed and pompous to have a serious discussion with.  As soon as you are faced with legitimate facts you post "The qu'ran condemns terrorism" and figure that is good enough.  When it isn't you get indignant.  You have NOT refuted every claim, you have gone to your vast bank of cut and paste rebukes to "non Muslims with valid points."
> 
> Pete: What about Hezbollah and Iran?
> 
> Abdulhaqq: Well...well...what about the crusades? :booboolip:
> 
> Pete: What do the crusades 900 years ago have to do with Hezbollah kidnapping and killing Israeli's with the support of Syria and Iran?
> 
> Abdulhaqq:  You are ignorant, can't read, and naive.



Dear Pete,

Again, your reading comprehension has failed you again.

Firstly, I never denied the existence of Muslims who have chosen the path of terror. I have emphasized that our faith condemns their mistaken interpretation of our faith and Muslims are actively working accross the world to deal with this problem, including Hezbullah and Iran and many other terrorist organizations and countries. However, you would be blind to ignore the fact *that today, as we speak, Pakistani military forces destroyed an Al Qaeda affiliated training camp* Why are you so selective in citing current events? How are the actions of Muslim governments in Iraq and Pakistan and our many other allies where we have military bases and whose intelligence agencies are working with us in order to fight terrorism? There are over 1.4 billion Muslims. Do you know how many people are even in Hezbullah? Its less then 4,000. You are making a bigoted stereotype against 1.4 billion people based on the actions of 4,000?

Secondly, I gave you a plethora of recent examples of Christians who engaged in acts of violence in order to show the flawed logic of stereotyping an entire religion based on the actions of a few. My point in starting with the crusades was to show a systematic series of historical examples of Christians engaging in violence in the name of Christianity. I gave you a list of * modern* day examples of Christians who were engaging in violence including: 
1. The participation of Christian clergymen in a genocide that resulted in 80,000 people. 
1. The recent attacks against a Jewish synogague by a Pakistani Christian
2. The planned attacks by a group called 'The Seas of David' who studied the bible

What about the recent series of revealations that priests have been molesting children?

What about Adolf Hitler, who utilized Christianity for his twisted purposes?

How can you say that these actions aren't recent?

* However, this is the point that seems to be going over your head. I do not believe Christianity is a violent, racist religion. I believe Christianity is a peaceful religion, but there are a handful of extremists in this religion every now and then who take their religion in the wrong direction and do horrible, evil things. I would not ever claim that all of Christianity is evil, even though there are some very terrible looking verses in the Bible and in the history of Christianity.*

The same can be said of any religion. In India, some Hindus recently massacred Indian Muslims and Sikhs. In the Lebanese Civil War, both Jews and Christians participated in the massacre of Muslim palestinian refugees. 

My point is that you are applying an inconsistent standard to Islam that you aren't applying to other religions. You cannot be at 'war' with an entire religion, especially when the adherents to that religion are peaceful citizens.

The 19 hijackers and all the other terrorists were bastards. However, the overwhelming majority of Muslims aren't like them. It doesn't make any sense to make a stereotype against 1.4 billion people based on the actions of a few.

Its illogical and xenophobic. 

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Then why are Muslims worldwide in such a tizzy over it?  Shouldn't be any of their business, right?
> 
> And we are, in fact, still fighting in Afghanistan, against Al Qaeda, who are.....Christian?  Mmmm...no.  Jewish?  I don't think so...
> 
> It's right on the tip of my tongue....I'll think of it in a minute...
> 
> PS, in case you didn't realize, Saddam Hussein may not have had a direct hand in 9-11, but he indeed was funding the terrorists and allowing them to set up training camps in Iraq.



Dear Vraiblonde,

This is something that President Bush and our intelligence agencies have explicitly rejected. 

Saddam Hussein was a secular baathist. The Al Qaeda-affiliated organization was located in the Kurdish no - fly zone. 

Do you have any newspaper articles to support your claim or are should I just take your word for it?

With Peace
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Hessian

*Moslems overwhemingly....Democrat.*

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/10/us_muslims_most.php

they are simply building up the numbers....demanding more of the American pie, and waiting to see how soon Europe falls.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Pete said:
			
		

> Are you honestly trying to draw a parrallel between Christians and Nazi's?
> 
> You really need to go back to recruiting school
> 
> And next you are going to wonder out loud why people here are close minded towads Islam.



Dear Pete,

Did you read the link I posted? It was written by a reputable historian. 

I find it interesting that the most evidence you've provided for your claims are witty comments whereas I've been providing links to articles and references to books.

I'm sorry, but your sense of humor isn't an objective fact that can be construed as evidence, my friend.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
PS: Why do you believe in God if you are an agnostic? What proof do you have for the existence of God if you don't believe in a religion?


----------



## FromTexas

RoseRed said:
			
		

> Vrai?   How did he find us?



Yellow Pages.  We are in the book.

She could just do an IP check and see where they are writing from, though.


----------



## Kain99

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.
> 
> What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation:  "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!  "  It's not particularly endearing or inspirational.


Come on Vrai... I have been his biggest proponent, through this whole thing. Why waffle now? You have challenged him, at every turn.


----------



## abdulhaqq

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.
> 
> What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation:  "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!  "  It's not particularly endearing or inspirational.



Dear vraiblonde

I apologize. I think people have misinterpreted my comments regarding violent christians. I wasn't trying to say 'christians are violent'. I was merely trying to illustrate the flawed logic of associating an entire religion on the actions of the few. If we can judge all of Islam based on the actions of a few wicked Muslims, then we should be consistent in our reasoning and apply it to christianity when their are bad christians or hinduism when there are bad hindus. I condemn general and overly broad stereotypes. I was trying to get people to see how it felt if someone made broad stereotypes against their religion. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Kain99

Lets Break It down!



About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)


Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly” 
Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.

Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”

Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”

Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”

Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.

Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”

Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM 

Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”

Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”

Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”

Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”


----------



## FromTexas

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear vraiblonde
> 
> I apologize. I think people have misinterpreted my comments regarding violent christians. I wasn't trying to say 'christians are violent'. I was merely trying to illustrate the flawed logic of associating an entire religion on the actions of the few. If we can judge all of Islam based on the actions of a few wicked Muslims, then we should be consistent in our reasoning and apply it to christianity when their are bad christians or hinduism when there are bad hindus. I condemn general and overly broad stereotypes. I was trying to get people to see how it felt if someone made broad stereotypes against their religion.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq



I wouldn't lay it all on the religion.  Those tribal cultures were violent to each other and everyone else for thousands of years already.  The Middle Eastern cultures have been at war since time began.  They don't seem to know anything different.  When they aren't fighting us, they are fighting each other.  Heck, they even fight over the different sects of their own religion.  I don't think tribal warfare ever got out of their system.  Heck, we probably have brought the Middle East together more than they have been in hundreds of years by giving them a larger enemy outside themselves.    

Lets face it.  If America et al was gone from the Middle East tomorrow and Palestine was immediately recognized and given lands, there would still be ongoing bloodbaths over there.  Getting Palestine wouldn't be enough... next would be Israel.  The Sunni's and Shiites would really start to get it on in between rocking the Kurds.  Saudi could go back to the brink of civil war.  Pakistan/India could get it on while Pakistan went back to the Taliban for aide after another coupe replacing Shariff.  Iran could start pressing UAE for the Straight of Hormuz again, so it could control the flow of oil.  Without the U.S., maybe they just start controlling it their way.  Lets face it.  The Middle East is nothing more than violence.  Don't pretend there is anything that can happen by any administration that would stop that.


----------



## Kain99

Qur’an 9.28 O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque (Mecca) after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete,
> 
> Again, your reading comprehension has failed you again.
> 
> Firstly, I never denied the existence of Muslims who have chosen the path of terror. I have emphasized that our faith condemns their mistaken interpretation of our faith and Muslims are actively working accross the world to deal with this problem, including Hezbullah and Iran and many other terrorist organizations and countries. However, you would be blind to ignore the fact *that today, as we speak, Pakistani military forces destroyed an Al Qaeda affiliated training camp* Why are you so selective in citing current events? How are the actions of Muslim governments in Iraq and Pakistan and our many other allies where we have military bases and whose intelligence agencies are working with us in order to fight terrorism? There are over 1.4 billion Muslims. Do you know how many people are even in Hezbullah? Its less then 4,000. You are making a bigoted stereotype against 1.4 billion people based on the actions of 4,000?
> 
> Secondly, I gave you a plethora of recent examples of Christians who engaged in acts of violence in order to show the flawed logic of stereotyping an entire religion based on the actions of a few. My point in starting with the crusades was to show a systematic series of historical examples of Christians engaging in violence in the name of Christianity. I gave you a list of * modern* day examples of Christians who were engaging in violence including:
> 1. The participation of Christian clergymen in a genocide that resulted in 80,000 people.
> 1. The recent attacks against a Jewish synogague by a Pakistani Christian
> 2. The planned attacks by a group called 'The Seas of David' who studied the bible
> 
> What about the recent series of revealations that priests have been molesting children?
> 
> What about Adolf Hitler, who utilized Christianity for his twisted purposes?
> 
> How can you say that these actions aren't recent?
> 
> * However, this is the point that seems to be going over your head. I do not believe Christianity is a violent, racist religion. I believe Christianity is a peaceful religion, but there are a handful of extremists in this religion every now and then who take their religion in the wrong direction and do horrible, evil things. I would not ever claim that all of Christianity is evil, even though there are some very terrible looking verses in the Bible and in the history of Christianity.*
> 
> The same can be said of any religion. In India, some Hindus recently massacred Indian Muslims and Sikhs. In the Lebanese Civil War, both Jews and Christians participated in the massacre of Muslim palestinian refugees.
> 
> My point is that you are applying an inconsistent standard to Islam that you aren't applying to other religions. You cannot be at 'war' with an entire religion, especially when the adherents to that religion are peaceful citizens.
> 
> The 19 hijackers and all the other terrorists were bastards. However, the overwhelming majority of Muslims aren't like them. It doesn't make any sense to make a stereotype against 1.4 billion people based on the actions of a few.
> 
> Its illogical and xenophobic.
> 
> With Peace,
> 
> Abdulhaqq


Paleeeeeeezzze That may have been a Pakistani pilot trained by Americans, in an American helicopter, burning American fuel, firing an American missile, directed by an American AWACS, on a target illuminated by and American SOG team.  Pakistan would not have done that 4 years ago, and probably wouldn't have today unless we gave them every incentive to do so. 

You want to impress me?  You hook me up with a link to an article where Assad in Syria sent his army into a camp that was in Syria training insurgents for insertion into Iraq, and the Syrian Army captured them and they are being put on trial.  How about the Palestinian authority arresting bomb makers and putting them in prison.

The article of the Catholic priest is so vague how can anyone speak to it?  How did he assist in genocide?  Last I had read Rwanda needed no help in genocide.  

A Pakistani Christian shooting up a synagogue?  OK I will give you an isolated incident by an "individual".  So how does your tit for tat negate the tons of other instances I have given you about organized terrorism?

If there are 1.4 billion Muslims, rooting out the only 4,000 or so bad actors shouldn't be that hard, don't forget to check Indonesia and the Phillipines I heard they are having alot of lopped off heads and bombings of civillians too.  When Muslims have made the slightest effort to police themselves give me a call.  Until then go sell your rhetoric someplace else, I am all stocked up on hypocrisy today.


----------



## Kain99

Let us all just ignore, what he Quran says. :rolleys:


----------



## abdulhaqq

* How can Islaam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?*

Historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8): _"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."  _

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.  

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.  

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.  


Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"  (The answer is 'zero')

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur'ân says in the following verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from error" [Al-Qur'ân 2:256]  

An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. *May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?  *

Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?


----------



## FromTexas

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> * How can Islaam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?*
> 
> Historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8): _"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."  _
> 
> Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.
> 
> Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.
> 
> The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.
> 
> 
> Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"  (The answer is 'zero')
> 
> Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"
> 
> With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur'ân says in the following verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from error" [Al-Qur'ân 2:256]
> 
> An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. *May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?  *
> 
> Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?



You mean like Sudanese genocide?


----------



## abdulhaqq

FromTexas said:
			
		

> You mean like Sudanese genocide?



Dear FromTexas,

How is the Sudanese genocide a war of conversion??

The people of Darfur are predominantly Muslim and the Janjaweed are Muslims as well. It wouldn't be a war of conversion, but a racial war. 

Islam clearly condemns wars of conversion as well as racism:

The Qur'an states the following:
*“There is no compulsion in religion”.*

and

*"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject" *

Futhermore, many historians and academians have rejected the myth that Islam spread by force:

- Sir Thomas W. Arnold in "The Preaching of Islam". 
- Marshall G. Hodgson in "The Venture of Islam"
- Albert Hourani in book, "A History of the Arab People"
- Ira Lapidus in book, "History of Islamic Societies"
- L.S. Starorianos in book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage"

"The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare. Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary."
- p 198 of "A History of Islamic Societies" by Ira Lapidus

For a more recent example of the peaceful converion of people to Islam:

_

"We have our own jihad, and that is our war against ignorance between Hutu and Tutsi. It is our struggle to heal," said Saleh Habimana, the head mufti of Rwanda. "Our jihad is to start respecting each other and living as Rwandans and as Muslims."

Since the genocide, Rwandans have converted to Islam in huge numbers. Muslims now make up 14 percent of the 8.2 million people here in Africa's most Catholic nation, twice as many as before the killings began.

Many converts say they chose Islam because of the role that some Catholic and Protestant leaders played in the genocide. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews.

"If it weren't for the Muslims, my whole family would be dead," said Aisha Uwimbabazi, 27, a convert and mother of two children. "I was very, very thankful for Muslim people during the genocide. I thought about it and I really felt it was right to change."_
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53018-2002Sep22?language=printer

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear FromTexas,

With regards to the Islamic view on racism, let it speak for itself:
_
*"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you"* (Quran 49:13)._

From Muhammad's (Peace Be Upon Him)'s last sermon:
_
O people, Remember that your Lord is One. *An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and good action (Taqwa).* Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly? People responded, Yes. O messenger of God, The Prophet then said, then each one of you who is there must convey this to everyone not present. _

The Prophet said: _Let people stop boasting about their ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. *All men are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust.*_

The Prophet said: _Whoever has pride in his heart equal to the weight of an atom shall not enter Paradise. A man inquired about a person who likes to wear beautiful clothes and fine shoes, and he answered: God is beautiful and likes beauty. Then he explained pride means rejecting the truth because of self-esteem and looking down on other people _

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## abdulhaqq

*Interview with Hamza Yusuf about the terrorist attacks*
_
Santa Clara, California-based Shaikh Hamza Yusuf was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury Sun newspaper about the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. In it, he shares the Islamic perspective on terrorism, suicide and peace. We are reproducing the article here with the permission of Mercury News._

_Shaikh Hamza Yusuf is the founder and director of the Hayward, California-based Zaytuna Institute. He is also a popular speaker at conferences like the Islamic Society of North America's annual one, as well as amongst Muslim youth in North America._

Here is the interview:
*
Expert says Islam prohibits
violence against innocents*

*Muslim scholar: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs*

BY RICHARD SCHEININ

Mercury News

Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?

We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''

Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said.

Why would anyone do what the hijackers did?

Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people.

They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that.

Because?

You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country.

In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.


What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam?

I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective.

The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers -- who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. Ultimately, this is a result of the bankruptcy of these type of people who claim to be adherents to the Islamic religion. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction.

Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs?

That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery -- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians.

Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.''

That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government.

Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy.

Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks?

Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people.

What about Israeli people?

Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories.

It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization.

The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost.

How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets?

When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. There's animosity in the Muslim world toward American foreign policy. This is the unfortunate price of power and its exercise in the world, that you incur the resentment and animosity of a lot of people. But the majority of Muslims who I know don't have anger toward individuals or the American people.

The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence.

Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority.

What is the Arabic word for martyr?

Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity.

And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue.

What does Islam say about suicide?

Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder.

What is a martyr's reward?

The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, "Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.''

If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own.

Reproduced with the permission of Mercury News

http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm


----------



## abdulhaqq

*10 brief points Christians should know about Muslims and Jesus*

   1. Muslims love Jesus. We also love Abraham, Moses, and Noah, to name just a few other Prophets Muslims revere. May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God.

   2. Muslims also love the mother of Jesus, the Virgin Mary. We believe she was a pious and noble woman chosen over all of the women of the world. In fact, according to some Muslim theologians, Mary is considered a prophet. 

   3. Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously of a virgin mother and no father. His birth is miraculous like the birth of Adam, the first human being, who was created with neither mother nor father.

   4. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. God is so powerful and self-sufficient that He does not need a son or any kind of partner.

   5. In Arabic Bible the name for God is Allah. Therefore all Arab Christian call God Allah as Muslim do as well.

   6. Jesus did not die on the cross. Rather, God saved  him as his enemies were confused about him. Jesus was taken up by God to Heaven.

   7. Jesus is called Isa (pronounced Eesa) in Arabic.

   8. Jesus performed miracles by the Will of God, like healing the blind and those with leprosy.

   9. Jesus prayed to the same God as all Prophets and we pray to.

  10. Jesus will return before the end of the world.


----------



## Pushrod

How can you claim that Islam does not condone terrorism when Kaine's posts of excerpts from the Qur'an expressly call for terrorism against non-Muslims;



> Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill *terror* into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”





> Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike *terror* in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”



And are you trying to befriend us *Infidels* now as to this edict of the Qu'ran?:



> Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
> NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, *a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam*.



Don't ignore these passages for the more noble ones. The Qu'ran does preach violence in plenty against non-Muslims, you can't deny that and you can't pick and choose which parts you want to present. Your making yourself look like you have an agenda against US (the so-called non-believers), a dishonest murderous agenda.

Tell us, what is your real feelings towards us infidels?

Your religion has done nothing to ease our distrust of you. As many have said in this thread, we don't see those billions of Muslims standing on the streets and crying out for the heads of all the Muslim terrorists! You state that Terrorism is a crime, why are your religious leaders not issuing fetwahs (sp?) against the known terrorists, and calling for all Muslims to come together to bring these so-called subversive individuals to justice?

You made a statement about Isreal not giving back the lands that they occupied after the war in the 1950's, and then tried to compare that to what Iraq did with it's invasion of Kuwait. You can't logically do that! Kuwait was not the aggressor as Isreal was not the Aggressor. If during the Iraq-Kuwait war, Kuwait had prevailed and occupied some of the aggressor's (Iraq's) territory, than it would have been deserved.
Also, Palestine was never a country, but a collection of immigrants settled on that land because no other Muslim country would have them.

Please address all of these points individually and not make some blanket statement on how peaceful your religion is.

Thank you.


----------



## Ken King

Pushrod said:
			
		

> How can you claim that Islam does not condone terrorism when Kaine's posts of excerpts from the Qur'an expressly call for terrorism against non-Muslims;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And are you trying to befriend us *Infidels* now as to this edict of the Qu'ran?:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ignore these passages for the more noble ones. The Qu'ran does preach violence in plenty against non-Muslims, you can't deny that and you can't pick and choose which parts you want to present. Your making yourself look like you have an agenda against US (the so-called non-believers), a dishonest murderous agenda.
> 
> Tell us, what is your real feelings towards us infidels?
> 
> Your religion has done nothing to ease our distrust of you. As many have said in this thread, we don't see those billions of Muslims standing on the streets and crying out for the heads of all the Muslim terrorists! You state that Terrorism is a crime, why are your religious leaders not issuing fetwahs (sp?) against the known terrorists, and calling for all Muslims to come together to bring these so-called subversive individuals to justice?
> 
> You made a statement about Isreal not giving back the lands that they occupied after the war in the 1950's, and then tried to compare that to what Iraq did with it's invasion of Kuwait. You can't logically do that! Kuwait was not the aggressor as Isreal was not the Aggressor. If during the Iraq-Kuwait war, Kuwait had prevailed and occupied some of the aggressor's (Iraq's) territory, than it would have been deserved.
> Also, Palestine was never a country, but a collection of immigrants settled on that land because no other Muslim country would have them.
> 
> Please address all of these points individually and not make some blanket statement on how peaceful your religion is.
> 
> Thank you.


 I am by no means an expert of Islam but you need to read that entire section as a whole to grasp the full concept.  Book 8 of the Qur'an, known as the AL-ANFAL (Spoils of war, booty), and the terror spoken of is one that Allah places within the enemy's mind making them suceptible to defeat.

Shall we now look at both the Old and New Testament and hold Christians accountable for all of the laws within them?


----------



## itsbob

Ken King said:
			
		

> Shall we now look at both the Old and New Testament and hold Christians accountable for all of the laws within them?


Yes.


----------



## vraiblonde

Ken King said:
			
		

> Shall we now look at both the Old and New Testament and hold Christians accountable for all of the laws within them?


The NT negates the OT.  Jesus specifically says, several times, "you have heard it said..." then refutes it with "but I say to you..."

Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus do not subscribe to OT law because Jesus came and told them to cut it out.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You are adding nothing as usual.


Why because I'm not stupid enough to get into an argument about religions??

I think I added more with those few words then with the book you've posted so far.. 

Bottom line to both arguments is..

MY religion is RIGHT, yours is wrong..

MY saviour is better then yours.. 

BOTH sides think the other side is misled, misinformed and ignorant of THEIR religion.. 

Who do you think is going to win this argument?  

I think we've beat this dead horse to glue.. lets move onto to the Baptists, or the Mormons.. or the 7th Day Adventist's.. lets argue with them now!!


----------



## AliSamana

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> While researching, I found this as well. History reveals that Islam is not the peaceful religion you would lead us to believe it is.




I really don't want to get into arguing the history of our religions here.  But since you brought it up I will give you a few examples

1.  The crusades (Authorized by the Pope himself)
2.  The Inquisitions
3.  Bloody Mary and her story of love
4.  Withcraft hunt and murders
5.  And lets not forget the Holocaust.  Though you have accused Muslims of wanting to annihilate jews, I don't think anyoen brought such atrocities as Hitler.

"Pope John XII had open love affairs. Urban VI tortured and murdered some of his cardinals. Innocent VIII proudly acknowledged his illegitimate children and heaped church riches upon them. Simony and nepotism were rampant. Most efforts ended in the reformers being called heretics and dying for their trouble." (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_reformation.htm)

Islam has also never had paid pardons. I am sure you are not fimiliar with what I am talking about, are you?  

Now, your response will probably be that those people were wrong and you condemn them, well we condemned Osama Bin Laden.  As a matter of fact he was condemned by the Saudin government before the US decided to even notice him.  They took away his citizenship and allowed him to not return to their country.


----------



## AliSamana

itsbob said:
			
		

> 7-11 pays MORE then that...




So, you see the point!


----------



## AliSamana

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Don't need your help in understanding the Bible since it is obvious that you do not understand it. I may have some dirt in my eyes, but I don't need a blind person to help me see.
> That would be the Messiah, annointed one, king. Jesus says that when His disciple had seen Him, they had seen the Father.  Very plain. How about: That is pretty plain. Don't see the mention of anyone else who someone can believe in and get to the Father.  Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. Did Mohamed do that? Nope.
> Again. You are very wrong in your understanding. Christians believe in only one God. How many times do you have to be told that the word trinity is not in the Bible.
> If you wish to share your views, then respect the Bible and God as I show respect to the Qur'an. See. Capitalization is recognition I give and expect. If you disrespect God then I guess it is OK for me to post allah and qur'an or koran and mohamed.Give respect to get respect. Withhold respect and get none.
> 
> Quite frankly, I am not interested in Islam. I know Jesus as my Savior and Lord who is in the Father and the Father in Him who is God. I do not need Mohamed who was only a man. Now if you would like to learn about the real Y'shua, Jesus, God come as man, I will be more than happy to have discourse with you.
> 
> Remember God came as Jesus to be a Savior for you. All you have to do is repent, accept Jesus as your Savior, and follow Him to the Father. It is all God. Aren't you glad God loves you? I am. God didn't kill someone else for me; He chose to humble Himself and come as man to die for me and then show me the promise of eternal life by coming back to life. Now that is a loving God.



Once again, I don't think we will see eye to eye on these points.  One thing I wanted to mention is that all Muslims have to believe in the Bible, and the Torah (old Testement) and Jesus (Isa in the Quran) and Moses (Musa in the Quran) Peace be on both of them. We have the utmost respect for them, so please don't take this discourse as disrespect, just a way to learn...


----------



## AliSamana

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> When countries loose a war, the victor does not have to give up the territory taken. The U.S. typically does, but has not always. Israel chose not to give up the conquered territories. Those territories were conquered; they were not taken illegally.
> 
> I thought it was very nice of Israel not to completely wipe out the Egyptian army they had trapped.
> 
> Don't want to loose territory? Don't go to war.
> See, by prohibiting Christians from witnessing, preaching, they are prevented from carrying out the instructions of Jesus to go into all the world teaching and making disciples. So Christians are not free to worship as they should but only free to worship as the Saudi Arabia authorities dictate. That would be like the U.S. saying it is OK for muslims to pray but only two times a day and they can't use a prayer rug and can't face mecca.



I agree that many countries are backwards in many aspect of freedom of religion. That can be combated not by the war on terror, but by people like you and I asking for change.  I gave examples of how Prophet Mohammad lived with Jews and Christians of his time earlier, I think many Muslims need to follow that example.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

meelak said:
			
		

> 2ndAmendment,
> I see all your posts end with
> "Read the Bible . The Truth. The whole Truth. And nothing but the Truth."
> 
> Which bible are you asking us to read. The KJV, NSV, NISV,,,,,,,,,? I see one verse in one version but the same verse is taken away from another version. If it is word of god who gives people the right to add and take away the verses. Because they want you to read what they want. For example, in 1970s, the so-called religions "DD"s joined another 50 people of religious prominence and put together the new version and if you look into the foreword section, it says the preivous version had "grave" mistakes and they were so many.
> 
> The Truth - Did Jesus read it and attest to the contents for its accuracy?
> 
> The Wholetruth - Then why do the verses keep disappearing and new verses keep appearing.


Did you read my previous post. You lack of knowledge of the Bible is evident in your post. I'll repeat for the reading impaired. 



> The oldest manuscripts of ancient writers like Aristotle, Plato, Herodotus (among other) amounts to a small number of copies that were made a thousand years or more after the originals were written. There are no more then ten manuscripts of Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, and the oldest copy of that was written over 900 years later than the original. Scholars accept these documents as adequate representations of the originals.
> 
> Why not the bible?
> 
> The earliest portions of The New Testament date to within just 25 years of the originals. Some nearly complete books of the new testament date to within one century or less from the originals. And we're not even talking about a handful of copies that can be compared with one another to determine accuracy or consistence. There are nearly 25,000 complete manuscripts of the New Testament, with more than 15,000 that date to before the 7th Century A.D. (or C.E. if you prefer). These include 5,300 copies in the original Greek, over 10,000 in Latin Vulgate, 4,100 Slavic translations, 2,000 Ethiopian translations and about 1,000 other early translations.
> 
> Further, in the first centuries after Christ, thousands of letters, and other documents were written in which people quoted from other documents that would later be assembled into what was to become the New Testament.. These quotes are so extensive that even if there wasn't a single bible in existence, you could go back to those letters and documents and using only those written within 250 years after the death of Christ, you could find every word of the New Testament, with the exception of 11 verses.
> 
> *There are small differences in all those manuscripts - however, all these differences, most are a matter of spelling or word order changes that were made as the styles changed over the ages. In fact a total of only about 200 words, or 1/10 of 1 percent of the entire new testament are subject to more than trivial differences. And no single doctrine of Christianity in all it's denominations throughout history depend on a piece of disputed text.*
> 
> 
> As for the Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls show that in over 2,000 years those who copied the Old testament were so meticulous that no significant changes were made to the texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls represent a major library of over 800 total documents dating between 250 B.C. to 68 A.D. Every book of the Old Testament is included except for some minor prophets, and Esther.


----------



## PJay

most I read it is pure evil with a capital E.

Testimonials from Ex-Muslims:

http://bibleprobe.com/islamapostates.htm


----------



## Toxick

itsbob said:
			
		

> I think I added more with those few words then with the book you've posted so far..



Actually you've added nothing to the discussion.

You've simply inserted poignant observation about the discussion itself while adding zero content to it.

To say you've added to the discussion is like saying John Madden added excitement to a football game.






Or more accurately: it's like saying John Madden added to the excitment of the game by interjecting pointless semantic barbs at both teams.


----------



## FromTexas

AliSamana said:
			
		

> I really don't want to get into arguing the history of our religions here.  But since you brought it up I will give you a few examples
> 
> 1.  The crusades (Authorized by the Pope himself)
> 2.  The Inquisitions
> 3.  Bloody Mary and her story of love
> 4.  Withcraft hunt and murders
> 5.  And lets not forget the Holocaust.  Though you have accused Muslims of wanting to annihilate jews, I don't think anyoen brought such atrocities as Hitler.
> 
> "Pope John XII had open love affairs. Urban VI tortured and murdered some of his cardinals. Innocent VIII proudly acknowledged his illegitimate children and heaped church riches upon them. Simony and nepotism were rampant. Most efforts ended in the reformers being called heretics and dying for their trouble." (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_reformation.htm)
> 
> Islam has also never had paid pardons. I am sure you are not fimiliar with what I am talking about, are you?
> 
> Now, your response will probably be that those people were wrong and you condemn them, well we condemned Osama Bin Laden.  As a matter of fact he was condemned by the Saudin government before the US decided to even notice him.  They took away his citizenship and allowed him to not return to their country.



Hitler was not a Christian.  He removed Catholic nuns from service jobs, took a secular marriage, did not take counsel from clergy, and he killed himself.  None of this relates to his Catholic upbringing.  On top of that, hundreds of thousands of Christians were also killed in concentraion camps along with the Jewish and Slavs.  

Hitler would speak to God and paint a different picture for political purposes, but has been widely shown that to his party he denounced the influence of Christianity.  He also made many public statements about nature and the strong replacing the weak; stating that only the weak would find this cruel.  That is hardly Christian and references natural selection as a preference over Biblical truth.  

So, you could say his attitude is more like the attitude of Muslim leaders who now call for the extermination of Israel by your own statements; that they use the religious angle to stir up people despite having little value in the religious claims themselves and its more a racial concept than a religious concept.


----------



## itsbob

FromTexas said:
			
		

> Hitler was not a Christian.  He removed Catholic nuns from service jobs, took a secular marriage, did not take counsel from clergy, and he killed himself.  None of this relates to his Catholic upbringing.  On top of that, hundreds of thousands of Christians were also killed in concentraion camps along with the Jewish and Slavs.
> 
> .



Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself. 


My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. 

Chrisitan churches and the Catholics especially have always tried to distance themselves from Hitler..

Bottom line is, his speeches and his writings are full of his christian beliefs, and he used his Christian beliefs to gain the following of his mostly Catholic Country..


----------



## itsbob

SO you may not think Hitler a Christian or a Catholic, but at the time, he did, and so did his fellow countrymen, AND the Catholic Church.. 

His Brownshirts attended Mass, regular meetings with  the heads of the Catholic Church by Hitler himself and his most ranking generals..


----------



## Agee

itsbob said:
			
		

> In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. .


 
How ironic, Jesus was Jewish...


----------



## itsbob

Airgasm said:
			
		

> How ironic, Jesus was Jewish...


In NO way am I saying Hitler was right, just that blaming the Muslim religion for our troubles today, would be the same as blaming Christianity and the Catholics for WWII.

It's individuals USING their religion to get followers to do their will.


----------



## Agee

itsbob said:
			
		

> In NO way am I saying Hitler was right, just that blaming the Muslim religion for our troubles today, would be the same as blaming Christianity and the Catholics for WWII.
> 
> It's individuals USING their religion to get followers to do their will.


 
Not the intent of my comment, more a reflection on how whacked Hitlers' philosophies were.


----------



## FromTexas

itsbob said:
			
		

> In NO way am I saying Hitler was right, just that blaming the Muslim religion for our troubles today, would be the same as blaming Christianity and the Catholics for WWII.
> 
> *It's individuals USING their religion to get followers to do their will*.



Isn't that what I said, Bob? I guess you missed the summation at the end.

Hitler preached and wrote on thing, but to his close followers and friends, he despised Christianity.  He used it as a tool.  He was also quoted as stating that he had to be careful and use subterfuge with the Church in his use for it.


----------



## Makavide

Although I believe most Muslems to be a peacful people this sort of behavior does not help with public relations


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear 2ndAmendment,
> 
> First, your claim that Christianity espouses the doctrine of monothiesm. I wanted to remind you that a critical view of the trinity has been adopted not only by the predecessor of Christianity, namely Judaism, and the antecedor to Christianity, namely Islam, but there are a plethora of sects within Christianity from its early age until the modern era that have rejected the Trinity as well. This is a point that you ignored. When you are discussing "Christian beliefs" please state which sectarian perspective you are adopting and on what grounds. There are something like 200 sects within Christianity that differ on important theological questions. In Islam, there are only a handful of sects, none of which differ greatly over the nature of God or the textual integrity of the Qur'an. Christianity, on the other hand, possesses no such uniformity. To me, this doesn't seem to be an illustration of a 'divinely revealed religion', does it?


Do you accept the miracles of Jesus? His diciples also did miracles. There are miracles in the Christians church today. Therfore Christianity and the New Testemant is devine.

There may be many denominations of Christians, but by and large, the Christian denominations don't go around killing other Christians like the Sunnis and Shia do.



			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Secondly, with regards to your continued claim that you believe that the trinity is a manifestation of monotheism, this is patently absurd. In order to reference the Bible as an authentic narration from God, you have to first establish its textual integrity and some sort of proof that it is from God. In Islam, we believe that God not only sent His prophets (upon them be peace) who were of the utmost character, truthful, noble, eloquent, and free from sin, but he sent with them miracles as proofs that they were true representatives from God. The miracle of the Prophet MUhammad (peace be upon him) is the Qur'an which is a book that has been unchanged for 1400 years and challenges all of humanity to produce a piece of literature that is capable of breaking the laws of language, but still remaining coherent.


I believe in one God. Period. End of discussion.

The Qur'an was written by multiple people from notes from Mohamed years after his death. It has changed substantially over the years. Your contention that it is unchanged over 1400 years is a lie. Mohamed, by today's' standards in the U.S., would be a child molester at best since he had 12 year olds as wives, so I don't see where Mohamed would be free from sin.




			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Thirdly, and this is the most pertinent point. You claim that God is not divided into parts, but it is merely possible for God to divide into parts if he wanted to.
> 
> This is a cop-out on your part. Just because the bible claims to believe in one god doesn't mean this is so. If something looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, in all likelihood, it is a duck. With regards to the trinity, the division of Godhood can mean one of two things: Either these parts are unified through substance or they are separate.


Yep. I agree. Mohamed looks like a child molester, walked like a child molester, in all likelihood, Mohamed must have been a child molester.

You, again, impose your human rules on God who is omnipotent and beyond your control.



			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> You asserted that God cannot be limited and Muslims agree with this assertion. You claimed that you God isn't divided into parts and the trinity isn't a division of being, but of attributes. Lets assume arguendo that godhood is shared by a tripartite being. Previously, I argued that the parts define the whole. It is logically absurd to assume that if the parts of a being possess a certain characteristic, that the whole lacks it. You have not responded sufficiently to this claim except by muttering 'Its in the Bible' which is a form of blind faith and not a form of rational proof. If God is not three separate entities, but is divided into three separate parts, than according to Christians, he possesses contradictory elements. If God as a whole is unlimited and eternal, than his parts must be unlimited and eternal. If the parts of God are limited and temporal, than are his parts unlimited and eternal? If God is unlimited and eternal, than surely, his parts must be unlimited and eternal. Since you claim that Jesus is an integral of Godhood, this would mean that god is limited since an integral of him was born, died, and suffered in hell. * You have failed to respond to this claim except based on blind faith by referring to the Bible.* If you say 'the integral of god that existed in his creation was god' then you've placed god in his creation and have adopted a belief that is more similar to hinduism and other pagan religions than other monothiestic religions such as judaism and Islam.


You don't understand God. Neither do I. I don't pretend to like you do. You say I have blind faith because I quote the Bible. What of your blind faith when you quote the koran (since you insist on disrespecting the Bible)? You really don't understand the Bible at all, do you? 





> John 1:14-18
> 
> 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
> 
> 15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
> 
> 16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
> 
> 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
> 
> 1*8No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.*


This is one testimony that proclaims Jesus is the "the only begotten God."



> Luke 10:22 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."


This is a quote of Jesus. You, maybe all Muslims, have no idea who Jesus really is.


> John 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,


Look out. Jesus will be your judge.





> John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."


So Jesus says He will raise all that believe in Him including me from the dead. Back to the duck. Looks like God, acts like God, talks like God. Yep. Must be God. 





> John 17:1-3
> 
> 1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
> 
> 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
> 
> 3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Jesus still looks like God to me.


			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Either God is made up of parts that are not eternal and limited in which the law of non-contradiction negates his existence, or he is divided into three separate entities in which case Trinitarians are not worshipping one God, but three.


No one, certainly not I said that God has any parts that are not eternal. Jesus lives. Islam keeps missing the resurrection of Jesus.

Sorry about Mohamed. No resurrection there, huh?



			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> My point in this exercise was to illustrate that the claim that Muslims do not worship the God of Jews and Christians is absurd because of the glaring differences between Jewish theology and Christian theology. From the perspective of a purely neutral observe, trinitarians would be the odd one out of the three abrahamic faiths, not Islam. Islam is more cogently affiliated with the predecessor judaism in its theology. *So if anything, the question should be "Do Christians worship the god of judaism and islam?"*
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


Again, you don't have the foggiest idea.  





> Genesis 1:26-27
> 
> 26*Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness*; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
> 
> 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


Notice this is the Old Testament; Jewish book of the Bible. God refers to Himself in the plural. One God, as many forms as He chooses.


----------



## Larry Gude

*I'd like to ask some questions...*

...


If the US were ruled by Sharia, what would happen to;


Abortion rights

Campaign finance reform

Illegal drug use 

Gay rights

Illegal immigration

Seperation of church and state (I guess this is a trick question)

Pop culture (gangster rap, movies, dress)

Minimum wage

Energy policy

2nd amendment rights

federal tax policy




I'm interested.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Do you accept the miracles of Jesus? His diciples also did miracles. There are miracles in the Christians church today. Therfore Christianity and the New Testemant is devine.
> 
> There may be many denominations of Christians, but by and large, the Christian denominations don't go around killing other Christians like the Sunnis and Shia do.
> 
> I believe in one God. Period. End of discussion.
> 
> The Qur'an was written by multiple people from notes from Mohamed years after his death. It has changed substantially over the years. Your contention that it is unchanged over 1400 years is a lie. Mohamed, by today's' standards in the U.S., would be a child molester at best since he had 12 year olds as wives, so I don't see where Mohamed would be free from sin.
> 
> 
> Yep. I agree. Mohamed looks like a child molester, walked like a child molester, in all likelihood, Mohamed must have been a child molester.
> 
> You, again, impose your human rules on God who is omnipotent and beyond your control.
> 
> You don't understand God. Neither do I. I don't pretend to like you do. You say I have blind faith because I quote the Bible. What of your blind faith when you quote the koran (since you insist on disrespecting the Bible)? You really don't understand the Bible at all, do you? This is one testimony that proclaims Jesus is the "the only begotten God."
> 
> 
> This is a quote of Jesus. You, maybe all Muslims, have no idea who Jesus really is.
> Look out. Jesus will be your judge.So Jesus says He will raise all that believe in Him including me from the dead. Back to the duck. Looks like God, acts like God, talks like God. Yep. Must be God. Jesus still looks like God to me.
> No one, certainly not I said that God has any parts that are not eternal. Jesus lives. Islam keeps missing the resurrection of Jesus.
> 
> Sorry about Mohamed. No resurrection there, huh?
> 
> Again, you don't have the foggiest idea.  Notice this is the Old Testament; Jewish book of the Bible. God refers to Himself in the plural. One God, as many forms as He chooses.


WOW, you are one ARROGANT Christian.. all the arguments you use against Islam, the same could be said about the Bible and Christianity.. but I guess THOSE arguments aren't valid becasue you didn't think of them, or that they are used to deride YOUR religion.  


And back to the "OUR saviour was resurrected, your's wasn't!!"

But I think the whole point to the Muslim side (shich is actually more believable) was that Muhamed was not a superbeing, he was not the son of God, he was a mortal man...  no super powers.. 

So should we convert ALL the Muslims to your truth, or should we convert all the Christians to their Truth??


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear 2ndAmendment,
> 
> A lot of your claims about God, His nature and attributes, are not derived from reason (some are plainly absurd and utilise weak argument to justify that which is inherently and apparently contradictory), but through blind faith in a text whose integrity you believe to be impeccable.
> 
> In your post, you claimed that the Bible was a reliable document and cited to some statistics that might impress a novice student of theology, but won't impress minds with more capable powers of perception.
> 
> In your previous post, you made the following claims:
> 
> 
> Firstly, the relevant question isn't when the copies were made, but when the originals were made.
> 
> *The earliest available manuscripts, known as P64, P67, P104 were written around 200 years after the purported death of christ.* Even if we assume the textual integrity of the this manuscript, it was merely fragments and covered little of the New Testament.
> 
> P4 was made of Luke 1:58-59; 1:62-2:1, 6-7; 3:8-4:2, 29-32, 34-35; 5:3-8; 5:30-6:16.
> 
> P64  was made of Matthew 26:7-8, 10, 14-15, 22-23, 31-33.
> 
> P67 was made of Matthew 3:9, 15; 5:20-22, 25-28.
> 
> If the earliest biblical manuscripts were written 200 years after the death of christ and were mere fragments, than what does that say about the textual integrity of the Bible as a whole?
> 
> Secondly, the relevant question isn't how many copies exist, but the reliability of the originals existed. If the originals were defective, then obviously, the copies will be defective as well.
> 
> If the original manuscripts were written hundreds of years after the existence of Christ, how could they possibly be construed as being 'reliable' and 'authentic'? Furthermore, the earliest manuscripts weren't even discovered until the 19th and 20th centuries which means that for the overwhelming majority of Christianity's history, the supposed word of God was being defectively circulated!!!! If God is so powerful, why couldn't He preserve His own book? Why did He allow 2000 years to pass before the "comprehensive" version of His book was revealed?
> 
> Furthermore, you've exaggerated the relevance of these ancient manuscripts.
> 
> For example, only 8% of the Greek manuscripts cover most of the new testament. The remaining 92% of the Greek manuscripts are only fragments.
> (Source: L. M. McDonald and S. E. Porter, Early Christianity And Its Sacred Literature, 2000, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.: Peabody (MA), p. 27.)
> 
> Thus, it doesn't matter if there are 25,000 manuscripts if the overwhelming majority of them were copies whose originals are lost and are comprised of fragments.
> 
> Lastly, the primary method of textual reconstruction of these fragments was done through from the perspective of the Latin manuscripts which we all know weren't even in existence until the 4th century, casting doubt as to the authenticity of the earlier texts as being a reliable interpretation.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


Islamic


----------



## 2ndAmendment

meelak said:
			
		

> Did Mohammed do that?
> 
> That is exactly the point. If he did that, people will again make the same mistake and start worshiping him as god.
> 
> When you are going in the right direction, you don't need to make any turns. Only when you are going in the wrong direction that you need to change the course. Since people mistakenly beleived the messayah to be the god, god had to send another messayah - the last and final messenger to the whole humanity.
> 
> Read John chapter 14 again and you see will see that jesus is foretelling the people of the coming of mohammed who will confirm what jesus preached and show them the new signs/message (which according to jesus the people did not have the comprehension to understand those at that time). Some christians believe this to be the holy spirit. If it is infact the holy spirit what new signs/messages did the holy spirit give which jesus did not give in his time?
> 
> 1) When jesus was on the cross, what did he say
> 
> Matthew chap 27 verse[46] "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
> 
> Eli, Eli when translated to Arabic Alah, Alah!! Jesus cried to god. If he is god, why would he have to cry to god and ask god why god has forsaken him. What does this prove? Verse 47 says, people heard him calling to god.
> 
> 2) What about John Chap 20 and verse
> [17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
> 
> Here jesus is saying my god and your god. If he was god, why would he say my god and your god. This means his god and other people's god are the same and he is not the god.
> 
> 3) Here is yet another proof that Jesus did not pay for everybody's sins.
> 
> Look into Matthew Chap 7 Verse
> [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
> [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> 
> The above verses say who ever does righteous deeds that god prescribes us to do only will enter paradise and it is the same belief of the muslims as well. Also, to the people who called him Lord/God, in his second coming, he will not even recognize them and will ask them to get away.
> 
> Also, we muslims believe jesus was raised up alive and he will come again.


Jesus was in no way foretelling the coming of Mohamed. Why would a man have to come to save humanity when God had come? A man could do something God could not? According to Islamic understanding, but not according to Christian understanding.

Jesus paid the price for everyone sins as long as you accept the gift of God. If you don't, ...

Again, you show your ignorance of Biblical understanding.

Since Jesus is God come as man, the Son of Man, He is fully God and man. He had to lay down His God-ship to die. All part of the plan of salvation. If He had not laid down His God-ship, He would not have died. If He had not died, our sins would still be unforgiven. After He died, He was put in a tomb. He rose from the dead on the third day. By that, He proved his God-ship by taking up His life again.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2nd Amendment,

My purpose in criticizing Christian Theology wasn't to make you feel bad about your religion because you have certain beliefs that are rationally indefensible, but to show that every religion has aspects of faith and reason. 

There is absolutely no doubt, according to historians, that Islam is entirely comaptible wtih reason and Western civilization. The sheer fact that so many Western scientists, philosophers, and thinkers have consistently looked to Islam and Muslims for intellectual assistance shows that a peaceful synthesis is possible. 

I've already given you a reference to Harry Wolfson's "The Philosophy of the Kalam" which is an extensive exposition between the philosohical contributions between Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/kalam.pdf

Here is another reference to the contribution of Muslims scholars and theologians to Western philosophy:
_ Among Western scholars of the history of philosophy, interest in and concern with medieval Islamic and Jewish tinkers is fairly recent. The traditional history of Western thought has usually held that it emerged from Greco-Roman thought, with the Islamic and Jewish thinkers functioning at best as middlemen, translating Hellenic and Hellenistic texts and commenting on them for the benefit of Christian medieval thinkers. The Islamic and Jewish thinkers were hardly considered important figures in their own right, except for Maimonides, who has been a most important and most problematic figure in Jewish thought for almost eight centuries. In recent decades, more and more scholars with the necessary linguistic training have been examining the achievements of Muslim and Jewish intellectuals from 800 onward. They are examining them both in their own right as significant thinkers and as important influences on later Western European thought. *It is gradually being realized that a significant part of Western intellectual heritage relies upon the philosophical works of the Islamic world, and that developments in Muslim Spain from the tenth through the twelfth centuries played a major role in the development of Western philosophy. Critical editions of Muslim and Jewish texts have been published as well as translations of many of them into modern Western languages.* One instance of the influence of these thinkers on later European ones is that seventeenth-century scholars such as G.W. Leibniz, Nicolas Malebranche, and Pierre Bayle are known to have read Maimonides in Latin and learned of al-Ghazali's occasionalism there. 
-p 143 of "The Columbia Encyclopedia of Western Philosophy" -
_

As for everyone else, you're smear tactics have already been consistently addressed over and over in this thread. You cannot denigrate over 1.4 billion people on the actions of the few. If you don't feel that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat violence and other social ills in their communities, *that is your personal opinion. It is not a historical fact.* Throughout this thread, I have given reference to * only articles, books, and major thinkers/scholars*. Whereas the evidence that some of you have alluded to is either inconclusive, misinterpreted, xenophobic, or just weak. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## 2ndAmendment

meelak said:
			
		

> If that is the case, when Iraq fought with Kuwait and took over Kuwait, why did we go to liberate Kuwait. Iraq was not willing to give Kuwait back? So why didn't we say - Oh they captured it and it is theirs. But no, all the countries formed a coalition and went and liberated Kuwait (which is a sign of civilized world).
> 
> We cannot chose who we liberate and who we not liberate. If we call ourselves unbiased, freedom loving, just and hold ourselves to higher moral grounds, then why did we not liberate palestine?


The quote is your friend in forums.

Why? We wanted to. Period. Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it.


----------



## abdulhaqq

*Charity in Islam*
_
Those who spend their wealth in the way of Allah and do not follow up their spending by stressing their benevolence and causing hurt, will find their reward secure with their Lord. They have no cause for fear and grief. (Qur'an)

To speak a kind word and to forgive people's faults is better than charity followed by hurt. Allah is All-Sufficient, All-Forbearing. (Qur'an)

The Prophet said: If any Muslim plants something or sows seed from which a man, a bird or an animal eats, it counts as a charity for him._


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear 2ndAmendment,
> 
> With regards to your claim that 'islam spread by the sword and imposed slavery', this is a argument is weak just like the rest of the ones you've been conjuring up today. The fact that you didn't even bother quoting a reputable historical source for a timeline that listed a bunch of dates doesn't mean anything. For example, the mere fact that Muslims conquered Jerusalem doesn't mean that it was done violently.
> 
> Here is the peace treaty between the Second Caliph Umar (may God elevate him) and the Jewish and Christian inhabitants of Jerusalem:
> 
> _“This is the protection which the servant of God, Umar, the Ruler of the Believers, has granted to the people of Jerusalem. The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their coreligionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in any way. There shall be no compulsion for these people in the matter of religion, nor shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion..._
> 
> The French historian Michaud (1767-1839), who traveled in the Middle East and wrote a book on the Crusades called Bibliotheque des Croisades (Library of the Crusades), says on the conquest of Jerusalem by the Crusaders in 1099, “The Muslims were massacred in the streets and in the houses. Some fled from death by precipitating themselves from the ramparts; others crowded for shelter into the palaces, the towers and above all, in the mosques where they could not conceal themselves from the Crusaders. The Crusaders, masters of the Mosque of Umar, where the Muslims defended themselves for sometime, renewed their deplorable scenes which disgraced the conquest of Titus. The infantry and the cavalry rushed pell-mell among the fugitives. Amid the most horrid tumult, nothing was heard but the groans and cries of death; the victors trod over heaps of corpses in pursuing those who vainly attempted to escape.”
> 
> When the Muslims re-conquered Jerusalem in 1187, they again showed extreme mercy and kindness. The ruler at the time, Sultan Salahuddin Ayyubi, gave free pardon to the Christians in the city. Only the soldiers were required to pay a very small fee. However, the Sultan himself paid the fee for about ten thousand people. His brother paid it for seven thousand people. Salahuddin also allocated one of the gates of the city for people who were too poor to pay anything to leave from there.
> 
> These historical facts completely refute your claim on this one particular instance. In fact, if necessary, an entire thread could be dedicated in refuting the absurd allegations raised in your hitherto uncited article.
> 
> However, instead of doing so, I will argue general principles that will refute your claims, one by one.
> 
> *Firstly, Islam itself prohibits forced conversions.*
> 
> The Qur'an itself says "There is no compulsion in religion." Contrary to the Pope's erroneous claim that this verse was an early verse, this verse was a later verse revealed during the Madinan period where the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) had established a government. The verse was a prohibition on him and his followers to force people to convert.
> 
> *Secondly, historians of notable repute agree that Islam spread peacefully, not by force.*
> 
> _"The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare. Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary."
> - p 198 of "A History of Islamic Societies" by Ira Lapidus -_
> 
> Professor Thomas Arnold has dedicated an entire book on the topic of the peaceful spread of Islam entitled "The Spread of Islam in the World"
> 
> * Thirdly, even today, Islam is spreading peacefully, all through out the world*
> 
> In fact, over 60,000 people converted to Islam in Rwanda.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53018-2002Sep22.html
> 
> Note how 4 clergyman from the Catholic church were charged with assisting genocide and face charges of war crimes.
> 
> Christians had actively participated in the a genocide that resulted in the death of 800,000 people. This isn't from a few centuries ago, this is within the past decade.
> 
> Lastly, Christianity has a history of forced conversions during the Crusades, Inquisition, and the entire history of colonization where Christopher Columbus forced thousands of Native Americans into slavery and Christianity. Lets not forget that the same thing happened to African Americans, of which 20% are estimated to have been Muslim who were forced into Christianity. Some as recent as 150 years ago.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


Yes, the crusades were an abomination. But Christians grew up. Muslims apparently haven't grown up yet. Maybe one of these days you guys will see the Light.

"Islam itself prohibits forced conversions."    Tell that to the two reporters that had to "Covert" to be released when the were captured in Gaza.

 Ever heard that actions speak loader than words? The events of the Muslim world testify against Islam.


----------



## abdulhaqq

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Yes, the crusades were an abomination. But Christians grew up. Muslims apparently haven't grown up yet. Maybe one of these days you guys will see the Light.



Maybe some day, when you truly seek guidance, you will see the Light too.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Maybe some day, when you truly seek guidance, you will see the Light too.


I have the Light. The Holy Spirit lives within me. Maybe one of these days you will realize that you do have sin in your life and need the Savior that God provided, the Son of Man, God comes as man. I pray that you find the love of Jesus, God come as man.


----------



## abdulhaqq

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I have the Light. The Holy Spirit lives within me. Maybe one of these days you will realize that you do have sin in your life and need the Savior that God provided, the Son of Man, God comes as man. I pray that you find the love of Jesus, God come as man.



As I stated before, mankind is born free from sin. God didn't make a mistake in the creation of Adam. The sins of the fathers don't transfer to the travel.


----------



## Pete

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> As I stated before, mankind is born free from sin. God didn't make a mistake in the creation of Adam. The sins of the fathers don't transfer to the travel.


Did you hear Oprah gave away $300,000


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> DUDE!!!!! You completely ignored my post!  "Gentle goes the dove."


You didn't provide what they want. They don't want someone who agrees with them. They want the argument, so they can proliferate their Islamic propaganda.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> You didn't provide what they want. They don't want someone who agrees with them. They want the argument, so they can proliferate their Islamic propaganda.


Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it??


----------



## itsbob

Pete said:
			
		

> Did you hear Oprah gave away $300,000


How much is she worth?

That would equate to me dropping $1.00 in a salvation Army bucket..


----------



## Pushrod

Ken King said:
			
		

> and the terror spoken of is one that Allah places within the enemy's mind making them suceptible to defeat.QUOTE]
> 
> But Ken, isn't that what terrorism is about, mainly pyschological. Destroy the will of the enemy to continue in a conflict.
> 
> I don't support any religion, and think that they all have some bloody history that they have perputrated in the name of their religion.
> I'm not convinced that Islam is a peaceful religion (or even close to considering it). I'm sure there are a minority that wish nothing but peace with the rest of the world but I think the majority consider us infidels the enemy and aplaud when anything bad happens to us. Case in point, I remember earlier this year an interview with a villager, a simple farmer in (I think) Iraq about how he thought about Americans. He said (paraphrasing) "They are my enemy if they are not Muslim".
> Well then if, the common folk consider me to be their enemy, then in turn, I have no option but to also consider them my enemy.
> 
> We have several gentleman on here that are Muslim and seem to be blowing flowers up our collective @sses, still smells like $hit to me.
> 
> I would be convinced if the Muslim community as a whole would stand up and denounce these terrorist cells, including Hamas, Al Quida, Talaban, etc...
> and make proclaimations like they did against Rushdie for his book. I have honestly not heard anything like that, so I have to assume that they silently approve of the actions against what Iran has termed the "Great Satan", all of us Infidels in the US of A!
> 
> Paul
> A Proud Infidel!


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Pete et al,
> 
> I'd be more than happy to stop this flame copy/paste war and continue a civilized a discussion.
> 
> Every claim you've made has been responded in full. E
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


I, for one, really don't care much about what you have to say. Bye now.


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I can't believe you even said that.  And you were doing so well, too.




Why? Because I asked people a question that they can't truthfully answer it?


----------



## Pushrod

I still haven't seen any replies by our distinguished Muslim posters to my questions/accusations on page 25 of this thread.

I really don't know these answers and as long as I and others remain ignorant of why the Muslim community supports terrorism with it's silence, we will continue to be distrustful of Islam


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I do not advocate violence against Muslims in general.  And let me tell you right off the bat that I am not a Christian, and I won't spout Christian rhetoric or use Jesus to form my opinion.  I got no dog in the religious fight.
> 
> When the most visible Muslims in the world are the ones sawing some poor guy's head off and dragging dead bodies through the streets, chanting with joy, you can't hardly blame the viewing public if they get a negative impression of the religion.  Especially when not only are said sawers and draggers doing it in the _name_ of their religion, but their supposedly peaceful religion mates are deafeningly silent.
> 
> You say that some Muslims do condemn terrorism, and I believe you.  I've seen it myself.  But one would think that 1.8 BILLION people could drown out a few million.  Unfortunately they don't seem to be doing so.  So it's a natural assumption that the majority of those 1.8 BILLION don't have a problem with what the terrorists are doing, or they would certainly be able to drown them out.
> 
> Again, I give you Fred Phelps as a Christian example.  Mr. Phelps claims to be a "man of God", yet his religion-mates are THE FIRST ONES to condemn him, loudly and without equivocation.  They have absolutely no problem making their dissenting voices heard in protest of this man.  Very few even think he's "got a point" - they not only despise his actions, but despise that he calls himself a "Christian".  And there is not one single person who follows the news who has any doubt about how Christians feel about Mr. Phelps and his band of merry malcontents.
> 
> Can you say the same for Islam?  No, you can't - because it doesn't happen in large enough numbers to make a firm statement.  And Phelps isn't even killing anyone!  He's protesting funerals!
> 
> If Muslims suffer from bad PR, it's their own fault for not speaking up and making their voices heard.



You are right - "If Muslims suffer from bad PR, it's their own fault for not speaking up and making their voices heard".

But you have to understand the other side and look at the big picture to see why the majority of the muslims are coming across to the western people as not rejecting the barbaric acts of the minority muslims. First of all, the media is not showing the full picture. Several symposiums take place every week, clerics issuing fatwas against violence, discussions/debates against terrorism takes place - all those are not shown in the media. Second, you have to look at the socio-economic status/difficulties of the people living in some of these countries. If you are faced with the choice of participating in these religious, cross-cultural debates/symposiums, discussions groups or bringing home the bread going through the curfews, ethnic fightings, killings, etc. to your wife and children, which option will you take. In some parts of the world it is not as easy as sitting in your car, going to work and come back with the pay check. Life is really challenging and more challenging than what you and me are facing here. If I am one of them faced with so many hardships, my immediate focus would be on earning the livelihood and the future and then I will dedicate the left over time to educate the others. I hope people can understand this.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Pushrod said:
			
		

> I still haven't seen any replies by our distinguished Muslim posters to my questions/accusations on page 25 of this thread.
> 
> I really don't know these answers and as long as I and others remain ignorant of why the Muslim community supports terrorism with it's silence, we will continue to be distrustful of Islam



Dear Pushrod,

I looked on page 25, but couldn't find any of your posts. Which post were you referring to? Would you mind sending me the link.

With Peace,
Pushrod


----------



## PJay

Pushrod said:
			
		

> I still haven't seen any replies by our distinguished Muslim posters to my questions/accusations on page 25 of this thread.
> 
> I really don't know these answers and as long as I and others remain ignorant of why the Muslim community supports terrorism with it's silence, we will continue to be distrustful of Islam



For me your questions are appearing on page 26. 

Just being helpful  incase they'd care to answer them...


----------



## 2ndAmendment

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Lets Break It down!
> 
> 
> 
> About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
> 
> 
> *Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly” *
> Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
> NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.
> 
> Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”
> 
> Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
> 
> *Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”*
> 
> *Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”*
> 
> Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
> *
> Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”*
> 
> Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
> 
> *Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
> *
> Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
> 
> Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
> 
> Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
> 
> Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”
> 
> Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
> 
> Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
> 
> *Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
> *
> Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”


Wow. Muslims sure are a tolerant bunch aren't they? Loving and kind to those that don believe as they do. Kill, wipe out, du dah du dah.

Christians are told to: 





> Matthew 5:43-47
> 
> 43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
> 
> *44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,*
> 
> 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
> 
> 46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
> 
> 47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?


 Anyone notice a difference?

Does anyone see a conflict here?





> Qur’an 3:54 “*‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). *Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”


 The Gospel says "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," and the Qur’an says "kill, wipe out, fight with them until there is no persecution, do not make friends with any but your own people.” Yep. No conflict there.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I, for one, really don't care much about what you have to say. Bye now.


Guess we know who won this debate....


----------



## itsbob

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> As I stated before, mankind is born free from sin. God didn't make a mistake in the creation of Adam. The sins of the fathers don't transfer to the travel.


THIS I believe with all my heart.. there is nothing so innocent on this earth as a newborn child.. They carry no sin.. no mistakes, no errors from past generations.  They are wholly clean, and anyone that can look into a newborns eyes and say different has truly lost their mind.


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Read please:
> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0331-03.htm
> 
> 
> Can you even remotely imagine something like this happening in the US?  Me either.  Which is why so many Americans can't relate to Muslims.  Our troops are over there actively at war, and they do not do things like this.  In fact, if they so much as embarrass or humiliate a prisoner, they get in a serious amount of trouble.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse



Variblonde, I think you are being too naive or you are somebody who does not listen to any news. I can send you several links of abuses iraqis go through at the hands of the soldiers. The most recent being the case where a soldier raped a 14 year old girl and killed the rest of the family to cover up (this happened a while back but got leaked only recently). In my opinion, outraging somebody's modesty and making them live the rest of their life with that is worse than killing somebody - being a woman (if you are) you can better understand that. Search through the news and you will come across the exccesses the soliders are comitting over there. Don't look for it on CNN, etc.


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> The one we're fighting right now



Let me see, did they invite us over there or did we go over there on our free will and against the decision of the U.N and the world community? 

If you look at the laws of the entire world. No country gives punishment of one person to his/her brother or sister or father or mother. If somebody does harm to me - I address it with him or I bring him to justice. If I give punishment to his brother then I am not being righteous and even though I may have muscle power and all that, deep inside me I will know that I was wrong in punishing that person's relative only because of the association.


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Then why are Muslims worldwide in such a tizzy over it?  Shouldn't be any of their business, right?
> 
> And we are, in fact, still fighting in Afghanistan, against Al Qaeda, who are.....Christian?  Mmmm...no.  Jewish?  I don't think so...
> 
> It's right on the tip of my tongue....I'll think of it in a minute...
> 
> PS, in case you didn't realize, Saddam Hussein may not have had a direct hand in 9-11, but he indeed was funding the terrorists and allowing them to set up training camps in Iraq.




And how would you know that????? Let me guess, based on watching the media here. Have you been outside the country to see what is happening out there. That is exactly what my point is. People are blindly believing what the media wants to portray and we all know who own the media in this country and why they want to portray in a certain way. Look beyond that - you will see the bigger picture. Nowadays you have internet and access to lot more than what you get from TV.


----------



## Pushrod

Homesick said:
			
		

> For me your questions are appearing on page 26.
> 
> Just being helpful  incase they'd care to answer them...



Thanks Homesick, I should have looked before I posted.
Anyway, my challenge still stands for any Muslim out there concerning my questions on page *26* of this thread.
So far they are doing a great job of ignoring these issues. Not looking good for you guys.....

Come -on, take a break from strapping explosives to each others chests and answer the questions!

Paul
The Proud Infidel


----------



## abdulhaqq

> Matthew 5:43-47
> 
> 43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
> 
> 44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
> 
> 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
> 
> 46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
> 
> 47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?



Dear 2nd Amendment,

Would you agree then, that it is against Christianity to engage in warfare at all?

Or does chrisitianity allow warfare under certain circumstances?

What are your thoughts on St. Augustines doctrine of "Just War"?

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## 2ndAmendment

itsbob said:
			
		

> Why because I'm not stupid enough to get into an argument about religions??
> 
> I think I added more with those few words then with the book you've posted so far..
> 
> Bottom line to both arguments is..
> 
> MY religion is RIGHT, yours is wrong..
> 
> MY saviour is better then yours..
> 
> BOTH sides think the other side is misled, misinformed and ignorant of THEIR religion..
> 
> Who do you think is going to win this argument?
> 
> I think we've beat this dead horse to glue.. lets move onto to the Baptists, or the Mormons.. or the 7th Day Adventist's.. lets argue with them now!!


Actually, I was wrong. You did sort of add something. I thought about that after I had posted. I think you posted (I'm not going to look it up) my Savior is better than your Savior. Which brings up the point that Islam does not have a Savior.

As to Baptists, or the Mormons.. or the 7th Day Adventist's ... every denomination has its own problems. I was just told by a Baptist (I used to go to a Baptist church) that they are going to vote to forbid the speaking in tongues even in private. Of course this is in conflict with the Bible. 





> 1 Corinthians 14:37-40
> 
> 37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
> 
> 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
> 
> 39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, *and do not forbid to speak in tongues.*
> 
> 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.



I would be remiss as a Christian to allow the Islamic propaganda to go without a Christian perspective. You say you aren't a Christian (Isn't that you?), so I would not expect you to get into the fray.


----------



## meelak

Pete said:
			
		

> Are you honestly trying to draw a parrallel between Christians and Nazi's?
> 
> You really need to go back to recruiting school
> 
> And next you are going to wonder out loud why people here are close minded towads Islam.



Pete, 
We don't need new recruiters. The recruiters we already have are doing a tremendous job in reaching out to people and showing them what islam is really all about and people are getting to know the religion - thank god for that. Just look around and do you know which is the fastest growing religion in America as of today? Do you know which is the fastest growing religion in Europe today? Even with all the mischief some bad muslims are doing and the negative portayal by the media, islam is growing fast. Imagine how it will be if all the muslim truly followed the scripture and behaved as allah commands them to. 

We can only share about the religion based on Qur'an and the Hadeeth. The inspiration should come from god for people to see and pick the right path. As I said, when it comes to religious beliefs, there is no compulsion. But the right path is distinct from the path of error. Once people get the message, it is up to them to make the decision. But atleast in the heareafter they cannot  reason to god that they did not get the message.


----------



## Pete

meelak said:
			
		

> Pete,
> We don't need new recruiters. The recruiters we already have are doing a tremendous job in reaching out to people and showing them what islam is really all about and people are getting to know the religion - thank god for that. Just look around and do you know which is the fastest growing religion in America as of today? Do you know which is the fastest growing religion in Europe today? Even with all the mischief some bad muslims are doing and the negative portayal by the media, islam is growing fast. Imagine how it will be if all the muslim truly followed the scripture and behaved as allah commands them to.
> 
> We can only share about the religion based on Qur'an and the Hadeeth. The inspiration should come from god for people to see and pick the right path. As I said, when it comes to religious beliefs, there is no compulsion. But the right path is distinct from the path of error. Once people get the message, it is up to them to make the decision. But atleast in the heareafter they cannot  reason to god that they did not get the message.


I had heard that Islam is the religion of choice in the State and Federal penitentiaries.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear 2ndAmendment, 

Actually, in Islam, we have a savior and his name is Jesus and he will defeat the anti-christ. 

We believe that Jesus was a righteous prophet of God who was born of a miraculous birth of the Virgin Mary who some Muslim scholars consider a prophet. In fact, there is an entire chapter in the Qu'ran devoted to her (peace be upon them both).

We believe that God is one without partners. He begets not nor is He begotten and their is nothing like Him.

God's intimate mercy for mankind is expressed through His will and has sent thousands of prophets to give mankind guidance. There is no need to repent through Jesus because one can repent directly to God, who is All Powerful and Free from All Needs.

Furthermore, we don't accept the crucifiction (since there is no original sin since human beings are born pure with an inner disposition towards good and guidance) and believe that Jesus will return and bring the world back to the rightful guidance of One True God. 

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## meelak

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Lets Break It down!
> 
> 
> 
> About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
> 
> 
> Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly”
> Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
> NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.
> 
> Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”
> 
> Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
> 
> Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”
> 
> Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
> 
> Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
> 
> Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
> 
> Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
> 
> Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
> 
> Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
> 
> Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
> 
> Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”
> 
> Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
> 
> Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
> 
> Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”



Kain, 
I am going to respond to you with just one verse. 

Qur'an 2:190 "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors."

As you can see from the verse above, the muslims are asked not to be the aggressors. But it is okay to fight against those who fight against you based on righteousness. If somebody comes into your house and try to overpower you, of course you are going to fight them and it is your moral duty to defend at that time. But what you have to understand is that fighting is allowed when it is instilled upon you and you were not the aggressor.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear 2nd Amendment,
> 
> My purpose in criticizing Christian Theology wasn't to make you feel bad about your religion because you have certain beliefs that are rationally indefensible, but to show that every religion has aspects of faith and reason.
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt, according to historians, that Islam is entirely comaptible wtih reason and Western civilization. The sheer fact that so many Western scientists, philosophers, and thinkers have consistently looked to Islam and Muslims for intellectual assistance shows that a peaceful synthesis is possible.
> 
> I've already given you a reference to Harry Wolfson's "The Philosophy of the Kalam" which is an extensive exposition between the philosohical contributions between Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
> http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/kalam.pdf
> 
> Here is another reference to the contribution of Muslims scholars and theologians to Western philosophy:
> _ Among Western scholars of the history of philosophy, interest in and concern with medieval Islamic and Jewish tinkers is fairly recent. The traditional history of Western thought has usually held that it emerged from Greco-Roman thought, with the Islamic and Jewish thinkers functioning at best as middlemen, translating Hellenic and Hellenistic texts and commenting on them for the benefit of Christian medieval thinkers. The Islamic and Jewish thinkers were hardly considered important figures in their own right, except for Maimonides, who has been a most important and most problematic figure in Jewish thought for almost eight centuries. In recent decades, more and more scholars with the necessary linguistic training have been examining the achievements of Muslim and Jewish intellectuals from 800 onward. They are examining them both in their own right as significant thinkers and as important influences on later Western European thought. *It is gradually being realized that a significant part of Western intellectual heritage relies upon the philosophical works of the Islamic world, and that developments in Muslim Spain from the tenth through the twelfth centuries played a major role in the development of Western philosophy. Critical editions of Muslim and Jewish texts have been published as well as translations of many of them into modern Western languages.* One instance of the influence of these thinkers on later European ones is that seventeenth-century scholars such as G.W. Leibniz, Nicolas Malebranche, and Pierre Bayle are known to have read Maimonides in Latin and learned of al-Ghazali's occasionalism there.
> -p 143 of "The Columbia Encyclopedia of Western Philosophy" -
> _
> 
> As for everyone else, you're smear tactics have already been consistently addressed over and over in this thread. You cannot denigrate over 1.4 billion people on the actions of the few. If you don't feel that Muslims aren't doing enough to combat violence and other social ills in their communities, *that is your personal opinion. It is not a historical fact.* Throughout this thread, I have given reference to * only articles, books, and major thinkers/scholars*. Whereas the evidence that some of you have alluded to is either inconclusive, misinterpreted, xenophobic, or just weak.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


I would beg to differ. You say my faith is irrational. That is extremely deriding. I do not feel bad about my personal relationship with God at all. I would rather put my faith in God, Jesus, rather than a man, Mohamed.

I thought it was 1.8 billion? Now it is 1.4? Where did the other 400 million go? You are loosing followers fast aren't you?

As an American, I defend your right to be a Muslim and to speak openly. As a Christian, I completely reject Islam.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

I have no doubt that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It is prophesied that satan and his followers will dominate the world and persecute Christians. It has to happen. Be careful whose side you are on.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

I now leave this thread.

May God bless all, even my enemies and those I disagree with, the enlightenment to see His Truth. Jesus is the son of man, begotten by God, God in the flesh, the Savior of mankind, the judge of all things, my Savior and Lord.


----------



## itsbob

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> As a Christian, I completely reject Islam.


That's neither very tolerant, nor very Christian an attitude..


----------



## meelak

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Qur’an 9.28 O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque (Mecca) after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
> 
> Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
> 
> Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
> 
> Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”



Kain, 
It is very bad and low of the lowest to misquote the scripture. Here are the same verses you quoted above, 

9:28 O ye who believe! The *idolaters only * are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

This verse refers to the idolators and not the christians or the jews. 

9:29 Reason against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Reasoning, debating, challenging is also a form of non-physical fight that people can undertake to share the message. And the verse says only against some among the people who have been given the scripture. In other words, some among the christians or the jews or the muslims there are people who do not follow the god - and to them you have to reason. 

9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 

When god sends the scripture with the criterion of the right and the wrong and they go against god and call the mortal human beings as god - then god's wrath will be upon them. What is wrong in that. 

47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

47:4 is a long verse and how conveniently you just pasted the portion you wanted people to see. This verse clearly says, *when you meet in the battle* - you see how the verse asks muslims to use grace or ransom after the war. Also, when you read the verses - read them in context. If you just isolate a verse by itself and read you will be missing the context.


----------



## Pete

Just so you guys know Petezaa is a secular holiday.  Feel free to celebrate Petezaa this year.


----------



## abdulhaqq

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> I would beg to differ. You say my faith is irrational. That is extremely deriding. I do not feel bad about my personal relationship with God at all. I would rather put my faith in God, Jesus, rather than a man, Mohamed.
> 
> I thought it was 1.8 billion? Now it is 1.4? Where did the other 400 million go? You are loosing followers fast aren't you?
> 
> As an American, I defend your right to be a Muslim and to speak openly. As a Christian, I completely reject Islam.



Dear 2nd Amendment

At least we agree on something. As an American, I too would defend your right to be a Christian, but as a Muslim, I don't accept the divinity of Jesus and I accept all prophets.

With regards to jihad, I already addressed the claims of pushrod and kain from the beginning of this thread.

The concept of jihad is analagous to St. Augustine's theory of "Just War". Islam doesn't allow the taking of life except in two circumstances: when a person commits a crime and when their is oppression or aggression against your state. With regards to the former, only the state can prosecute individuals and must grant them due process. Interestingly enough, I have a law review article from a professor who shows that the Anglo-saxon legal concept of "Trial by Jury" and "presumption of innocence" comes from the Maliki school of law. If anyone is interested in reading this article, PM me and I'll send you the link and if you have a lexis nexis account, you'll be able to access it. 

With regards to warfare, Islam permits warfare. I never denied that. However, Islam also regulates it. In Islam, one is allowed to fight to defend one's homeland. One is also allowed to declare war to fight oppression in other lands. The reason why Muslims entered into regions of the world such as Syria, Egypt, India and Spain was because people were being oppressed and requested the help of Muslims. In fact, in 'The Decline and Fall of the Ottoman Empire" by Palmer, the author notes that the reasons why Muslims chose to enter Austria-hungary was because a local ruler had requested such assistance against another rule because he was oppressing his people. 

However, even though warfare is permitted in Islam, there are many restrictions on it. One such restriction is the prohibition on killing innocents and destroying property and committing suicide. This is why a person needs to make a distinction between 'jihad' and 'terrorism'. Jihad linguistically and legally can mean many things. It can be construed as a spiritual struggle against satan in one's mind, it can be the spiritual struggle against one's own desires to do wrong, it can be an intellectual struggle to proselytize people through reasoning and debate, or it can be a physical struggle to defend one's territory or to eliminate oppression. Thus, the war on terrorism can be construed as a 'jihad' because its a war to defend people's homelands and to elminate oppression. 

With regards to the verses that you quoted, I posted an article by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf that gave the Muslim view on these sorts of verses. Firstly, I would like to ask which translation of the Qur'an you used because I noticed immediately that you had mistranslated some verses. Secondly, a lot of these verses were taken out of context and the entire verse wasn't quoted. Thirdly, these verses were revealed at a time when Muslims were at war with other people. 

I hope that answers your questions. 

With Peace, 
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Hessian

*Again...smoke & mirrors...*



			
				abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> *Charity in Islam*
> _
> Those who spend their wealth in the way of Allah and do not follow up their spending by stressing their benevolence and causing hurt, will find their reward secure with their Lord. They have no cause for fear and grief. (Qur'an)
> 
> To speak a kind word and to forgive people's faults is better than charity followed by hurt. Allah is All-Sufficient, All-Forbearing. (Qur'an)
> 
> The Prophet said: If any Muslim plants something or sows seed from which a man, a bird or an animal eats, it counts as a charity for him._



How much $$ flowed into the Tsunami zone from America? Billions.
How much came in from Moslem countries: a trickle.
Tell me all about your charity...you won't even give to fellow moslems in need, instead, there was a condemnation of the dead because they were catering to western tourists and thus Allah punished them.

Very charitable.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Hessian said:
			
		

> How much $$ flowed into the Tsunami zone from America? Billions.
> How much came in from Moslem countries: a trickle.
> Tell me all about your charity...you won't even give to fellow moslems in need, instead, there was a condemnation of the dead because they were catering to western tourists and thus Allah punished them.
> 
> Very charitable.



Dear Hessian

Again, you're ignorance reveals itself. In Maryland alone, countless Muslim organizations, Mosques, and student organizations held tsunami fundraising dinner.

One of my dear friends from the Muslim civil rights organization CAIR quit his job as director of the Maryland chapter and formed a humanitiarian organization to help his countrymen in Sri Lanka. 

Please remove head from sphincter when making claims without any evidence.

Here is a news clip just from Saudi Arabia:

_
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Saudis streamed into a stadium to load bundles of clothes into trucks and stuff glass boxes with cash Thursday as the government launched a public campaign to help southeast Asian tsunami victims.

The stadium was the heart of a live national telethon that raised $67.4 million in 11 hours, of which King Fahd donated [a measly] $5.3 million and Crown Prince Abdullah donated [a despicable] $1.3 million, according to Saudi television.
_

Thats 11 hours my friend and only one country. 

You've also clearly never heard of the nationwide 'Fast a thon' which is held by Muslim Student organizations all over the country:
_
More than 250 colleges are expected to participate this year in a Fast-a-thon, a one-day event for non-Muslim and Muslim students to draw attention to world hunger and raise money for local food banks._
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15079909/site/newsweek/

Also, when I was a teacher at a private Islamic school in Baltimore, my students did a food drive the proceeds of which went to the Maryland Food Bank. When we dropped off the food, their representative told us that this was the most food *any private school in Maryland has donated*. 


Please educate yourself more about current events. You make yourself look ignorant when you don't. 

Our religion has mandated charity, its one of the five pillars. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## BS Gal

I think you should all just go have a beer together.


----------



## abdulhaqq

BS Gal said:
			
		

> I think you should all just go have a beer together.



Dear BS Gal

Muslims aren't allowed to consume substances that affect one's intellect so we aren't allowed to take drugs or consume alcohol.

I wouldn't mind some tea though.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## BS Gal

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear BS Gal
> 
> Muslims aren't allowed to consume substances that affect one's intellect so we aren't allowed to take drugs or consume alcohol.
> 
> I wouldn't mind some tea though.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq



This brings to mind the liquor-store ownership issue, but that's probably a different thread for a different day.  

 

BS Gal


----------



## abdulhaqq

BS Gal said:
			
		

> This brings to mind the liquor-store ownership issue, but that's probably a different thread for a different day.




Dear BS Gal, 

There are good Muslims and bad Muslims. Its important to make a distinction between Islam and Muslims.

Some Catholics molest children, that doesn't mean all Catholic priests do nor does that mean Catholicism does either. My best friend is a Catholic and I'd take a base ball bat to the head for him. 

I'm just trying to help people broaden their horizons a little. 

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## AliSamana

Homesick said:
			
		

> Why all of a sudden are you people coming out of the woodwork *1. like a bunch roaches*...or are you all one in the same? Whatever, I see your agenda.
> 
> Too, *2.  why do you say brother/sister to some here and not 2A*? You live here in this country and do not consider him your brother? You say you want peace. Yeah right.
> 
> *3. And by the way, the only views I care to see from a muslim at this point in time is you people gathering together ( as you are here ) kicking some muslim butts of those that are killing innocent people![/*QUOTE]
> 
> 1.  Thanks, I love talking to geiuses like you!
> 2.  Come sit through a Friday prayer, everyone is referred to as Brother of Sister, even non-muslims.
> 3. How about us muslims serving in the Military? care to hear our opinion?
> "In the United States, Islam is the fastest growing religion, a trend fueled mostly by immigration. There are 5 million to 7 million Muslims in the United States. They make up between 10,000 and 20,000 members of the American military." (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2001/n10042001_200110043.html)


----------



## meelak

Pushrod said:
			
		

> How can you claim that Islam does not condone terrorism when Kaine's posts of excerpts from the Qur'an expressly call for terrorism against non-Muslims;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And are you trying to befriend us *Infidels* now as to this edict of the Qu'ran?:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ignore these passages for the more noble ones. The Qu'ran does preach violence in plenty against non-Muslims, you can't deny that and you can't pick and choose which parts you want to present. Your making yourself look like you have an agenda against US (the so-called non-believers), a dishonest murderous agenda.
> 
> Tell us, what is your real feelings towards us infidels?
> 
> Your religion has done nothing to ease our distrust of you. As many have said in this thread, we don't see those billions of Muslims standing on the streets and crying out for the heads of all the Muslim terrorists! You state that Terrorism is a crime, why are your religious leaders not issuing fetwahs (sp?) against the known terrorists, and calling for all Muslims to come together to bring these so-called subversive individuals to justice?
> 
> You made a statement about Isreal not giving back the lands that they occupied after the war in the 1950's, and then tried to compare that to what Iraq did with it's invasion of Kuwait. You can't logically do that! Kuwait was not the aggressor as Isreal was not the Aggressor. If during the Iraq-Kuwait war, Kuwait had prevailed and occupied some of the aggressor's (Iraq's) territory, than it would have been deserved.
> Also, Palestine was never a country, but a collection of immigrants settled on that land because no other Muslim country would have them.
> 
> Please address all of these points individually and not make some blanket statement on how peaceful your religion is.
> 
> Thank you.



Pushrod, 
Here are some verses from the KJV version of the Bible. 

Sam. 18 [18] And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

Neh. 4 [14] And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses.

Pss.35 [1] Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.

Pss.144 [1] Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Isa 19 [2] And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.

Ezra.13 [31] And one shall undertake to fight against another, one city against another, one place against another, one people against another, and one realm against another.

Ezra.15 [15] For the sword and their destruction draweth nigh, and one people shall stand up and fight against another, and swords in their hands.

1Mac.8 [10] And that they, having knowledge thereof sent against them a certain captain, and fighting with them slew many of them, and carried away captives their wives and their children, and spoiled them, and took possession of their lands, and pulled down their strong holds, and brought them to be their servants unto this day:

2Mac.15 [27] So that fighting with their hands, and praying unto God with their hearts, they slew no less than thirty and five thousand men: for through the appearance of God they were greatly cheered.

and I can quote several more. Basically, we have to understand that all the religions of god prescribe fighting to preserve the righteousness and for upholding the law of the land, stop mischief and for the common good. Just because a religion is prescribing fighting does not make it a bad religion. Some times we have to stand up for the better of the society. God is stern in punishment to the bad people and at the same time he is merciful to the good.


----------



## Hessian

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Hessian
> 
> Again, you're ignorance reveals itself. ......
> 
> Please remove head from sphincter when making claims without any evidence.
> 
> Here is a news clip just from Saudi Arabia:
> 
> _
> RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Saudis streamed into a stadium to load bundles of clothes into trucks and stuff glass boxes with cash Thursday as the government launched a public campaign to help southeast Asian tsunami victims.
> 
> The stadium was the heart of a live national telethon that raised $67.4 million in 11 hours, of which King Fahd donated [a measly] $5.3 million and Crown Prince Abdullah donated [a despicable] $1.3 million, according to Saudi television.
> _
> 
> Thats 11 hours my friend and only one country.
> 
> 
> Please educate yourself more about current events. You make yourself look ignorant when you don't.
> 
> Our religion has mandated charity, its one of the five pillars.
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq




Hey look, I just educated myself....
 Luxembourg gave over 10 times more Oil rich Iran...  
http://www.terradaily.com/2005/050111202740.q1bv4mcp.html

I guess Allah is gonna nail them with another e-quake because they haven't been holding up one of his pillars.

Will Allah spare Luxembourg the coming Jihad due to their generosity?


----------



## meelak

Pushrod said:
			
		

> How can you claim that Islam does not condone terrorism when Kaine's posts of excerpts from the Qur'an expressly call for terrorism against non-Muslims;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And are you trying to befriend us *Infidels* now as to this edict of the Qu'ran?:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ignore these passages for the more noble ones. The Qu'ran does preach violence in plenty against non-Muslims, you can't deny that and you can't pick and choose which parts you want to present. Your making yourself look like you have an agenda against US (the so-called non-believers), a dishonest murderous agenda.
> 
> Tell us, what is your real feelings towards us infidels?
> 
> Your religion has done nothing to ease our distrust of you. As many have said in this thread, we don't see those billions of Muslims standing on the streets and crying out for the heads of all the Muslim terrorists! You state that Terrorism is a crime, why are your religious leaders not issuing fetwahs (sp?) against the known terrorists, and calling for all Muslims to come together to bring these so-called subversive individuals to justice?
> 
> You made a statement about Isreal not giving back the lands that they occupied after the war in the 1950's, and then tried to compare that to what Iraq did with it's invasion of Kuwait. You can't logically do that! Kuwait was not the aggressor as Isreal was not the Aggressor. If during the Iraq-Kuwait war, Kuwait had prevailed and occupied some of the aggressor's (Iraq's) territory, than it would have been deserved.
> Also, Palestine was never a country, but a collection of immigrants settled on that land because no other Muslim country would have them.
> 
> Please address all of these points individually and not make some blanket statement on how peaceful your religion is.
> 
> Thank you.



Pushrod, 
Please do a google search and look at the map of Palestine before 1940s - you will known what I mean. They were not a bunch of immigrants. It was actually the other way. When Europe drew the jews out, the muslims in palestine opened their doors and shared their lands and slowly the jews started building smaller institutions to cater to the needs of the jews in Palestine funded by america and then they claimed sovereignity on the Palestine lands. Please go back and read history and have your facts right about Palestine. If somebody lets you stay in their house for some time - you cannot turn around and claim the house to be yours. That is morally incorrect.


----------



## Pushrod

meelak said:
			
		

> and I can quote several more. Basically, we have to understand that all the religions of god prescribe fighting to preserve the righteousness and for upholding the law of the land, stop mischief and for the common good. Just because a religion is prescribing fighting does not make it a bad religion. Some times we have to stand up for the better of the society. God is stern in punishment to the bad people and at the same time he is merciful to the good.



Meelak,
So you are saying you are at war with the non-Muslims, and this is the reason for the atrocities that we are seeing today? This I can believe.

You're still avoiding my question about why Islam as a whole (especially the leaders of the Muslim communities) haven't stood up and called for a Jihad against the so-called rogue Muslims giving the rest of you "good" Muslims a black eye with their terrorist actions against civilians, both Muslim and Infidel.

Also, I'm not trying to say Christianity is a better religion or makes more sense than the Islamic religion, I just don't see large factions of Christians out there bombing, beheading and otherwise murdering untold numbers of people at this time. And when a rogue group of non-Muslim people do commit such attrocities, you would see the entire christian/agnostic/atheist population come together to put a stop to it. I haven't seen that yet in the Muslim world.

I don't "hate" all Muslims, but right now I consider all Muslims my enemy. There is a distinction. If what you call the "vocal" minority ever ceases their rhetoric and makes peace with all religions\non-religions of the world and vows to live side by side with them without restrictions, and ceases this senseless TERRORISM, then they would cease to be my enemy.


----------



## Pushrod

meelak said:
			
		

> Pushrod,
> Please do a google search and look at the map of Palestine before 1940s - you will known what I mean. They were not a bunch of immigrants. It was actually the other way. When Europe drew the jews out, the muslims in palestine opened their doors and shared their lands and slowly the jews started building smaller institutions to cater to the needs of the jews in Palestine funded by america and then they claimed sovereignity on the Palestine lands. Please go back and read history and have your facts right about Palestine. If somebody lets you stay in their house for some time - you cannot turn around and claim the house to be yours. That is morally incorrect.



Meelak,
Let me gather some information on this. I'm out of time for today, but I will get back to this tomorrow. It is an enlightening exchange.


----------



## Pushrod

Nucklesack said:
			
		

> I did, this link seems to belie your information



Thanks Nucklesack, you saved me the work. But, yes, that is how I remember the history of that region. Meelak, someone has been blowing smoke up your @ss about Palestine.

-The Proud Infidel


----------



## meelak

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> Jesus was in no way foretelling the coming of Mohamed. Why would a man have to come to save humanity when God had come? A man could do something God could not? According to Islamic understanding, but not according to Christian understanding.
> 
> Jesus paid the price for everyone sins as long as you accept the gift of God. If you don't, ...
> 
> Again, you show your ignorance of Biblical understanding.
> 
> Since Jesus is God come as man, the Son of Man, He is fully God and man. He had to lay down His God-ship to die. All part of the plan of salvation. If He had not laid down His God-ship, He would not have died. If He had not died, our sins would still be unforgiven. After He died, He was put in a tomb. He rose from the dead on the third day. By that, He proved his God-ship by taking up His life again.



Trust me 2ndAmendment, when I read this post you have no idea how hard I laughed. Yours is the first religion that I have come across where the a) "He had to lay down his God-ship" b) where a god has to "die" c) if the god does not die, then the people's sins would not be forgotten. 

Please 2ndAmendment, don't be this confused about your religion. Go to the source and not the translated and concocted versions - you will see the truth. 

Did you read my quote from Matthew 7, in the second coming, Jesus will tell the christian to get away and he will not recognize the christians. Because the christians will go to him and say, "Lord", "Lord", didn't we do miracles in thy name, etc. and Jesus will say, "Get away you men of iniquity". He will not say this to muslims because we have correctly recognized him as the prophet or messayah. Because the christians seeing his miracles incorrectly called him god, he is going to reject that and not associate with them in the second coming.


----------



## itsbob

meelak said:
			
		

> Pushrod,
> Please do a google search and look at the map of Palestine before 1940s - you will known what I mean. They were not a bunch of immigrants. It was actually the other way. When Europe drew the jews out, the muslims in palestine opened their doors and shared their lands and slowly the jews started building smaller institutions to cater to the needs of the jews in Palestine funded by america and then they claimed sovereignity on the Palestine lands. Please go back and read history and have your facts right about Palestine. If somebody lets you stay in their house for some time - you cannot turn around and claim the house to be yours. That is morally incorrect.


I thought Palestine was split by the Jordan River.. Jews were allowed to live West of the jordan River and the Palestinians the East (TransJordan).. The jews were relegated to about 25% of the country to live in..

and the country being named Palestine is misleading by today's terms. it was not to be the country of the Palestinians, but the country of the Israelites or Jews.. It later had to be split with Israel getting the short end or 25% of the stick yet again.. The other 75% in the end becoming Jordan..


----------



## itsbob

> Under the terms of the Mandate, Britain's principal obligation was to facilitate the implementation of the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, which pledged "the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people."(2) No territorial restrictions whatsoever - neither east nor west of the Jordan River were placed on the Jewish National Home. In fact, the Mandate stipulated that Britain was to "facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage close settlement by Jews on the land."(3)



SO this brings us back to 1917 and the Establishment of Palestine to facilitate the Jewish..

SO if the Israelites agree to Saudi's terms, Jordan would have to abdicate to Israel..


----------



## meelak

2ndAmendment said:
			
		

> The quote is your friend in forums.
> 
> Why? We wanted to. Period. Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it.



Exactly. Finally it came from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear this from you. It is this basic arrogance that the people have started to hate us and we have lost our standing in the world. 

Imagine when some other country or race gets more powerful in the world and treat you in the biased way and take away your land and say "Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it". Will you not fight them??? Let me see if you can truthfully answer this - from your conscience. I don't need your answer. Now I am convinced you have seen my point and see the other side of the story. 

Thanks for this post.


----------



## meelak

2ndAmendment,
There is no concept of Savior, priest or rabbi whom we can tell our sins and they are forgiven. Islam preaches people to have direct relationship with god. We don't need the middlemen. Think about it - god created you and you are answerable to god. Why do you need middle men. That whole concept of middlemen is not right. So, believe in god and have directly sincere relationship with god - you will do good.


----------



## meelak

Hessian said:
			
		

> How much $$ flowed into the Tsunami zone from America? Billions.
> How much came in from Moslem countries: a trickle.
> Tell me all about your charity...you won't even give to fellow moslems in need, instead, there was a condemnation of the dead because they were catering to western tourists and thus Allah punished them.
> 
> Very charitable.


Hussain, I had decided to ignore your posts. But this one I have to respond because it sounded very naive.

Do you know anything about how the charity process works across nations. When a nation says they are sending so much in charity, etc. Only 5 or 10% of that really goes to the receiving party as the money. The rest comes as either trade subsidies or construction projects for their companies or in other forms. And when nations declare the charity there are some conditions associated with it. It is not entirely unconditional money. 

As far as the tsunami charity, whatever US gave as charity more than that was given by Saudi Arabia alone (just by one country). You will not see the charity of the islamic countries coming into the news because in islam if you give charity you get rewards. But you get double the rewards if the charity is not openly announced in public to get publicity or notoriety. This is because we don't want to make the receiver feel he/she is being looked upon in a pitiful way. Whenever I give charity, I don't even share it with my wife or children how much I gave - even though those are considerably bigger amounts. 

Qur'an 2:271 "If you do deeds of charity openly, it is well; but if you bestow it upon the needy in secret, it will be even better for you, and it will atone for some of your bad deeds. And God is aware of all that you do."

This is why you won't see the charity work that the islamic countries are doing mentioned in the news. Don't you think it is in the better interest of the needy if he/she is not identified as the one receiving the charity.


----------



## meelak

Pushrod said:
			
		

> Meelak,
> So you are saying you are at war with the non-Muslims, and this is the reason for the atrocities that we are seeing today? This I can believe.
> 
> You're still avoiding my question about why Islam as a whole (especially the leaders of the Muslim communities) haven't stood up and called for a Jihad against the so-called rogue Muslims giving the rest of you "good" Muslims a black eye with their terrorist actions against civilians, both Muslim and Infidel.
> 
> Also, I'm not trying to say Christianity is a better religion or makes more sense than the Islamic religion, I just don't see large factions of Christians out there bombing, beheading and otherwise murdering untold numbers of people at this time. And when a rogue group of non-Muslim people do commit such attrocities, you would see the entire christian/agnostic/atheist population come together to put a stop to it. I haven't seen that yet in the Muslim world.
> 
> I don't "hate" all Muslims, but right now I consider all Muslims my enemy. There is a distinction. If what you call the "vocal" minority ever ceases their rhetoric and makes peace with all religions\non-religions of the world and vows to live side by side with them without restrictions, and ceases this senseless TERRORISM, then they would cease to be my enemy.



Pushrod, 
You didn't read my previous posts. When we as the most civilized nation in the whole world, freedom loving and the most unbiased people stand up and say "Tough life. Life isn't fair. Get used to it", we are passing the message of arrogance and bias. They perceive that as hypocry and start to hate us. I am sure you work for somebody. If your manager does not give you any raise and gives another colleague of yours a hefty raise and not just once it happens all the time, you are going to perceive this manager as biased. We call it discrimination. Discrimination is part of the law in US when it comes to employment, housing, education, etc. But when it comes to people outside this country, we can freely discriminate against anybody we like. What kind of image do you think it will leave if you are on the receiving end.

Answering your second question - as I stated in my earlier posts. When people are faced with the choice of going through the daily struggles to make ends meet and provide to their family or go out participate in those symposiums, fatwas denouncing the bad things some of them are doing, as a responsible father or son with a family to feed which option are you more likely to take? You and me have all the free time and we are able to discuss these issues at leisure - but some of the less priveleged people have to work more than 12 hours a day to earn the minimum wages. Where is the motivation, time, money to spend in the common cause. We have to be practical.


----------



## 2ndAmendment

meelak said:
			
		

> Exactly. Finally it came from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear this from you. It is this basic arrogance that the people have started to hate us and we have lost our standing in the world.
> 
> Imagine when some other country or race gets more powerful in the world and treat you in the biased way and take away your land and say "Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it". Will you not fight them??? Let me see if you can truthfully answer this - from your conscience. I don't need your answer. Now I am convinced you have seen my point and see the other side of the story.
> 
> Thanks for this post.


Sorry. I guess I have to respond to this. Hate say I'm gone and then retract, but ...

You are arrogant beyond words meelak. It is this attitude that you show and the fact that through immigration, Islam is growing so fast, that I and many like me are pressing to have our borders closed completely for a while and then only selectively reopened for immigration. 

I do not want Muslims in the U.S. Military because you have an allegiance that is not to the U.S. but to Islam. If the U.S. goes to war with the Islamic states of the world, and it just might happen, Muslims in the U.S. military can not be depended on. The U.S. military has paved the road to the demise of the United States from within. It will happen. I am certain of it.

I know people who are Muslim. We are cordial. I do not trust them any farther than I can throw a full grown elephant.


----------



## meelak

Nucklesack said:
			
		

> I did, this link seems to belie your information




Nucklesack,
Please don't look at the map a high school student created for his exams. 

1) Here is a link from Jerusalem Archives. You will see how Palestine at that time included more than what is now Israel and Jordan

http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/period3/3-5.html

2) Here is the history of Palestine. You will see that the jewish population in Palestine was 0.5% in 1895

http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm

3) The following link will tell you how year over year Palestine was slowly stolen under the very international eyes.

http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

4) Here is the link from the United Nations with complete history. 

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument

Just put "Palestine" and see what our own Wikipedia says about its history and how big was the land of Palestine. Here is the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

We all are humans and it is okay to make mistakes but to recognize your mistake and make reconciliation is the best thing any human being can do.


----------



## meelak

Pushrod said:
			
		

> Meelak,
> Let me gather some information on this. I'm out of time for today, but I will get back to this tomorrow. It is an enlightening exchange.




Pushrod, 
Since you are interested, in my previous post, have pasted several links about the history and the geographical map of Palestine. Go through that and let me know what you think.


----------



## Larry Gude

*Another question to ignore...*

...what denomination are you new folks?


----------



## Kain99

meelak said:
			
		

> Kain,
> It is very bad and low of the lowest to misquote the scripture. Here are the same verses you quoted above,
> 
> 9:28 O ye who believe! The *idolaters only * are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
> 
> This verse refers to the idolators and not the christians or the jews.
> 
> 9:29 Reason against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
> 
> Reasoning, debating, challenging is also a form of non-physical fight that people can undertake to share the message. And the verse says only against some among the people who have been given the scripture. In other words, some among the christians or the jews or the muslims there are people who do not follow the god - and to them you have to reason.
> 
> 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
> 
> When god sends the scripture with the criterion of the right and the wrong and they go against god and call the mortal human beings as god - then god's wrath will be upon them. What is wrong in that.
> 
> 47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.
> 
> 47:4 is a long verse and how conveniently you just pasted the portion you wanted people to see. This verse clearly says, *when you meet in the battle* - you see how the verse asks muslims to use grace or ransom after the war. Also, when you read the verses - read them in context. If you just isolate a verse by itself and read you will be missing the context.


I received my information from the web.  I will be the first to admit, I haven't read the Quran'.  

I apologize for misquotes.... It's just, Fear is an awesome entity.


----------



## PJay

You did good Kain, why just a few post back Meelak recommended that we search the internet for the real truth.


----------



## Hessian

*remember Kain...*

You won't be able to read the Koran because any translation from the blessed language of Arabic is corrupted. So, better sign up for those courses.

So now Meelak gets to impersonate the Wisened professor while everyone else needs to pay attention and lose our naivete'. Thank Allah oh Blessed one for condescending to our lowly level and instucting us. We infidels deserve nothing but Camel dung in your enlightened presence.

Since you are so wise...could you go back and address these statements I made earlier?

"Disprove this:
*Do you believe Jews were warned ahead of the 9/11 attacks?
*Are you hoping in the return of the Mahdi? (to avenge all the wrongs done against Islam)...is he Jesus???, what is he doing down a well for 2000 years?
*Do you believe Sha'ara law should be imposed on the United States and the sooner the better?
*The best thing for the middle east is the temporary framework of democracy to be installed because then the people will vote to replace it with an Imam based theocracy.
*The crimes in Chechnya, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, etc should always have tougher penalties on the Christian instigators who come there as "people of the book" and try to deceive children and women away from the One true Faith of Islam. Mercy belongs only to those who adhere to Mohammed's teachings.
*You will never call or write the Saudi embassy demanding they halt the publication of school books portraying the Jews as blood-drinking descendents of monkeys. Some of which are in the Islamic schools near DC.

Do you have a projection date when most of Europe will fall under Sha'ria law?
15...20 years maybe? What will it be like to retake Spain? What will you do to the Vatican? The same thing you did to the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople?
All the paintings in all the museums must be covered or face the same fate as the Buddhas in Afghanistan? (boom!)
The idea of conquest is in your blood, you can feel it can't you? The centuries of waiting are over...


----------



## Kain99

Homesick said:
			
		

> You did good Kain, why just a few post back Meelak recommended that we search the internet for the real truth.


Well then in that case.....I win!!!!


----------



## FromTexas

meelak said:
			
		

> Nucklesack,
> Please don't look at the map a high school student created for his exams.
> 
> 1) Here is a link from Jerusalem Archives. You will see how Palestine at that time included more than what is now Israel and Jordan
> 
> http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/period3/3-5.html
> 
> 2) Here is the history of Palestine. You will see that the jewish population in Palestine was 0.5% in 1895
> 
> http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm
> 
> 3) The following link will tell you how year over year Palestine was slowly stolen under the very international eyes.
> 
> http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html
> 
> 4) Here is the link from the United Nations with complete history.
> 
> http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
> http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
> http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument
> 
> Just put "Palestine" and see what our own Wikipedia says about its history and how big was the land of Palestine. Here is the link.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
> 
> We all are humans and it is okay to make mistakes but to recognize your mistake and make reconciliation is the best thing any human being can do.



The land of Palestine included Jordan.  Jordan is still there.  The only thing missing from the original largess of "Palestine" is a sliver of its original land that they lost for getting beligerent towards Israel.  Why would it be that the British got a right to decide how that land was divided?  Hmmmmm... Maybe a major war where they decided to side with the Central Powers.  Oh, and who, under that British authority, had the west bank first?    

Maybe if the Palestinian had not listened to the warmongering Middle Eastern nations surrounding Israel, they would have still been living in relative peace with Israel.  The Palestinians made their own bed and now they must live in it. 

In fact, the British could have even given over part of Jordan as part of the Jewish homeland.  They did not despite being allowed to by the Balfour Declaration.  So, Palestine and other countries are crying over a supposed wrong that they more then accepted under treaties of the time because they can't just suck it up.  The portion they are crying over is less than 15% of the entire original territory that was offered up to be divided.  They got 85% of the lands.  Well, guess what, they start fighting back and treating you like dirt when you try to kill them for so many years.  The Palestinians and others were the first to turn it violent.


----------



## FromTexas

Oh, by the way, which of all the different empires who owned the land should be allowed to come back and claim it now by your definition of "it used to be part of this, so it should be theirs again"?  Should we give it to the Ptolemics, Jewish, Ottomans, etc...?


----------



## Pete

meelak said:
			
		

> Exactly. Finally it came from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear this from you. It is this basic arrogance that the people have started to hate us and we have lost our standing in the world.


Oh please, people hate you and you lost your standing because of your people blowing up pizza parlors, buses, wedding receptions, killing women and children, embasies, hostage taking, beheadings, high jacking planes trains and ships, dancing in the streets at the slightest misfortune that befalls the west.  Get over the victimhood, grow up and purge the barbarians then come to the table.  Your doubletalk is tiresome.


----------



## Penn

Pete said:
			
		

> Oh please, people hate you and you lost your standing because of your people blowing up pizza parlors, buses, wedding receptions, killing women and children, embasies, hostage taking, beheadings, high jacking planes trains and ships, dancing in the streets at the slightest misfortune that befalls the west. Get over the victimhood, grow up and purge the barbarians then come to the table. Your doubletalk is tiresome.


 
Can I get a brotha to say "Amen"?


PS: When was the last time you heard Al-Jazeera in a telecast fervently condemning the terrorist killing and beheading of innocent civilians?

If the Qu-ran forbids the coerced conversions of non-believers of Allah, why didn't we hear their bellowing cry against the forced converting of the FOX News journalist - Steve Centani -and his camera man? 



Where was their outrage?


----------



## AliSamana

Pete said:
			
		

> I think that is what they named the knives that were jammed into Theo Van Gogh's rib cage "Love" and "Peace"



That guy killed one, Hitler killed many...whose religion of peace again?


----------



## AliSamana

Pete said:
			
		

> It's a shame so many in Islam don't read and comply with the qur'an.  Islam is viewed far and wide as the religion of bloodletting and violence because of their actions and not words.



I agree, illiteracy is one of our biggest challenges in the Muslim countries.  Now do you see what we are facing?


----------



## Mikeinsmd

Kain99 said:
			
		

> Lets Break It down!
> 
> 
> 
> About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
> 
> *
> Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly” *
> Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
> *NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.
> 
> Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. *They have no one to help or save them.”
> 
> Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
> 
> *Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”*
> 
> Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”
> 
> *Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror  into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”*
> 
> *Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”*
> 
> Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
> 
> Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
> 
> Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
> 
> Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
> 
> *Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”*
> 
> Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”
> 
> Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: *‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. * Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. *Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”*
> 
> Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”
> 
> Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: *‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”*
> 
> Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
> 
> *Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”*
> 
> *Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), * and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
> 
> *Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”*
> 
> Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
> 
> *Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), * and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”


By crikey I think the girl got it!!!  


Look at all that in bold and colors up there.  What a peaceful religion this is!!


----------



## AliSamana

Baja28 said:
			
		

> What's the matter? Can't islam use peace vs. terrorism to sell their wares?
> 
> Defend what claims??  Everything posted is FACT.
> 
> Islam kills....plain & simple.
> 
> Islam created the 3rd world war.




And who created the first two? Oh wait, don't answer that...


----------



## mainman

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> By crikey I think the girl got it!!!
> 
> 
> Look at all that in bold and colors up there. What a peaceful religion this is!!


When did you chew through the chains?


----------



## AliSamana

Pete said:
			
		

> And in this thread I have presented example after example after example of organized, sanctioned brutality the West has endured at the hands of Muslim terrorists.
> 
> I do not refute what the qu'ran says.  I believe you totally that it condemns terrorism, what I am saying is terrorism is ignored, sanctioned and cheered despite what you and the qu'ran states.
> 
> For the record, I have not uttered a single word of threat in any way towards Muslims.  I respect your right to speak about or practise your religion however you wish.  Conversely you have to respect my right to think you are trying to pass of something for what it is not.



Pete,

Al-Qaida operates in many countries around the world. It operated here in the United States, England and many of the developed countries, yet we did not know about it.  THere are other countries that do have AQ 'bases', yet they are as effective as we were before 9/11.  All I am trying to say is not all of the muslim countries condone terrorism.  As for the  people, like I said earlier, many of the families do not have food on the table, terrorism is the last thing on their mind.  I have spoke up against terrorism in as many ways, forms and fashions as I could. I know I have millions of muslims that stand with me on that.


----------



## AliSamana

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Kain,
> 
> Whoops! My bad! Sorry, there were a lot posts within the past 24 hours.
> 
> I agree. We have a lot more in common than people would imagine. The only way true dialogue and discourse can occur is if people drop the hate and listen to what the other party is saying.
> 
> Thats what the beauty of America is. We can have this discussion, we can be critical, and we can be passionate, and at the end of the day, we're all brothers of this land.
> 
> With Peace,
> 
> Abdulhaqq



Complete agree. I do think that in the last few hours (I am only on page 22 so far) we have gotten a bit more open to the discussion and less into namecalling.


----------



## BS Gal

I need a nap.


----------



## mainman

BS Gal said:
			
		

> I need a nap.


Qur’an?


----------



## BS Gal

mainman said:
			
		

> Qur’an?


It's in there somewhere, wherever they want it to be.  And however they interpet it.   This tread makes my eyes hurt and my soul ache.


----------



## AliSamana

Here is my response:



			
				Hessian said:
			
		

> Looking through the pages of postings from our present 5th columnists, I have to ask myself a serious question:
> on the surface they sing a song of peace, discussion, dialogue if you will. They proclaim the freedoms they enjoy here...
> 
> But,
> Disprove this:
> *Do you believe Jews were warned ahead of the 9/11 attacks? I hope not, none of my jewish friends called me
> *Are you hoping in the return of the Mahdi? (to avenge all the wrongs done against Islam) (not sure what you mean, clarify please)
> *Do you believe Sha'ara law should be imposed on the United States and the sooner the better? Nope, I believe in seperation of church and state
> *The best thing for the middle east is the temporary framework of democracy to be installed because then the people will vote to replace it with an Imam based theocracy. Not sure what you mean by this? Once again, cross apply the church and state from above.
> *The crimes in Chechnya, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, etc should always have tougher penalties on the Christian instigators who come there as "people of the book" and try to decieve children and women away from the One true Faith of Islam. Mercy belongs only to those who adhere to Mohammed's teachings. Absoloutely not, the first ones from God to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) were Iqra, meaning, explore, recite, learn, etc.  I believe all Muslims should be Muslims by choice.
> *You will never call or write the Saudi embassy demanding they halt the publication of school books portraying the Jews as blood-drinking descendents of monkeys. Some of which are in the Islamic schools near DC.  I would, I think those people do more disgrace to our faith than anyone else.
> 
> thoughts? denials?
> You know your numbers are growing by thousands weekly so don't go soft here...you're winning: come on and stand firm on those beliefs, don't back-pedal and apologize for the messy incidents in a few places around the world. Allah will reward you for your courage won't he?


----------



## AliSamana

Kain99 said:
			
		

> WTF are you doing?????? Christ!  In order to make me mad... You must be acting like a true asstard!
> 
> This ain't about you!  It's about OUR DEAD FATHERS!!!!!!!!
> 
> Wake Up!  Apologize like ya mean it!  Your people, attacked MY people!  Act Like it, and STFU!
> 
> GD You!  I have tried soooo hard, to understand your people!  Watch the video footage!
> 
> Who in Allah's name could stand before me, and boast?




Forget your meds this morning?  The people that were attacked were also MY people.  Hey moron, you are not the only American on this forum.  If you cannot tolerate a discussion, then please stop CLICKING ON THIS FORUM


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## AliSamana

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.
> 
> What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation:  "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!  "  It's not particularly endearing or inspirational.



I have condemned it on many occasions.  Taking innocent life is absoloutely against Islam.


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## AliSamana

FromTexas said:
			
		

> Hitler was not a Christian.  He removed Catholic nuns from service jobs, took a secular marriage, did not take counsel from clergy, and he killed himself.  None of this relates to his Catholic upbringing.  On top of that, hundreds of thousands of Christians were also killed in concentraion camps along with the Jewish and Slavs.
> 
> Hitler would speak to God and paint a different picture for political purposes, but has been widely shown that to his party he denounced the influence of Christianity.  He also made many public statements about nature and the strong replacing the weak; stating that only the weak would find this cruel.  That is hardly Christian and references natural selection as a preference over Biblical truth.
> 
> So, you could say his attitude is more like the attitude of Muslim leaders who now call for the extermination of Israel by your own statements; that they use the religious angle to stir up people despite having little value in the religious claims themselves and its more a racial concept than a religious concept.




Exactly my point.  He distorted the religion, just like terrorists have distorted Islam.  The 9/11 hijackers drank alcohol, went to strip clubs and took innocent lives, none of which adheres to Islamic law.


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## AliSamana

itsbob said:
			
		

> In NO way am I saying Hitler was right, just that blaming the Muslim religion for our troubles today, would be the same as blaming Christianity and the Catholics for WWII.
> 
> It's individuals USING their religion to get followers to do their will.




Thanks, I appreciate your open-mindedness


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## abdulhaqq

LOVE EVEN THOSE WHO REVILE YOU

Interview with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

Q: The convenient response to those who revile your religion is to return the favor. The more virtuous position however is to forgive. Forgiveness as you know, while less in virtue when compared to love, nevertheless, can result in love. Love, by definition, does not require forgiveness. What many Muslims today seem to forget is that ours is a religion of love and our Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, was the Habib, the Beloved. How did love, the defining virtue of our community, come to be replaced by an urge to redress wrongs, to punish instead of to forgive?

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: It is the result of Muslims seeing themselves as victims. Victimization is a defeatist mentality. It's the mentality of the powerless. The word victim is from the Latin “victima” which carries with it the idea of the one who suffers injury, loss, or death due to a voluntary undertaking. In other words, victims of one’s own actions. Muslims never really had a mentality of victimization. From a metaphysical perspective, which is always the first and primary perspective of a Muslim, there can be no victims. We believe that all suffering has a redemptive value.

Q: If the tendency among Muslims is to view themselves as victims which appears to me as a fall from grace, what virtue must we then cultivate to dispense with this mental and physical state that we now find ourselves in?

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: The virtue of patience is missing. Patience is the first virtue after tawba or repentance. Early Muslim scholars considered patience as the first maqam or station in the realm of virtues that a person entered into. Patience in Islam means patience in the midst of adversity. A person should be patient in what has harmed or afflicted him. Patience means that you don’t lose your comportment or your composure. If you look at the life of the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, you will never ever find him losing his composure. Patience was a hallmark of his character. He was ‘the unperturbed one’ which is one of the meanings of halim: wa kaana ahlaman-naas. He was the most unperturbed of humanity. Nothing phased him either inwardly or outwardly because he was with Allah in all his states.

Q: Patience is a beautiful virtue…the cry of Prophet Yaqub.... "fa sabran jamil." Patience, it appears, is not an isolated virtue but rather it is connected to a network of virtues. Should Muslims focus on this virtue at the expense of the other virtues?

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: The traditional virtues of a human being were four and Qadi Ibn Al-Arabi considered them to be the foundational virtues or the ummahatul fadaa'il of all of humanity. They are: prudence, courage, temperance, and justice. Prudence, or rather practical wisdom, and courage, are defining qualities of the Prophet. He, upon him be peace and blessings, said that God loves courage even in the killing of a harmful snake. Temperance is the ability to control oneself. Incontinence, the hallmark of intemperance, is said to occur when a person is unable to control himself. In modern medicine it is used for someone who can’t control his urine or feces. But not so long ago the word incontinence meant a person who was unable to control his temper, appetite or sexual desire. Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates one’s appetite in accordance with prudence. In early Muslim scholarship on Islamic ethics, justice was considered impossible without the virtues of prudence, courage and temperance. Generosity as a virtue is derived from courage because a generous person is required to be courageous in the face of poverty. Similarly, humility is a derivative from temperance because the humble person will often restrain the urge to brag and be a ‘show-off’ because he or she sees their talents and achievements as a gift from Allah and not from themselves. Patience as a virtue is attached to the virtue of courage because the patient person has the courage to endure difficulties.

So 'hilm' (from which you get 'halim'), often translated as forbearance or meekness if you wish, is frown upon in our society. Yet it is the virtue we require to stem the powerful emotion of anger. Unrestrained anger often leads to rage and rage can lead to violence in its various shades. Our predecessors were known for having an incredible degree of patience while an increasing number of us are marked with an extreme degree of anger, resentment, hate, rancor and rage. These are negative emotions which present themselves as roadblocks to living a virtuous life. A patient human being will endure tribulations, trials, difficulties, hardships, if confronted with them. The patient person will not be depressed or distraught and whatever confronts him will certainly not lead to a loss of comportment or adab.

Adab, as you know, is everything. Allah says in the Quran: ‘Isbiru was-sabiru.' “Have patience and enjoin each other to patience.” The beauty of patience is that ‘inallaha ma'assabirin’ Allah is with the patient ones. If God is on your side you will always be victorious. Allah says in the Quran "Ista`inu bi-sabiri was-salat.'" Isti'aana is a reflexive of the Arabic verb `aana which is “to help oneself.” Allah is telling us to help ourselves with patience and prayer.

This is amazing because the Prophet, peace be upon him, said “if you take help, take help from God alone.” And so in the Quran Allah says: ista`inu bi-sabiri was-salaat. This means taking help from patience and prayer because that is the means by which Allah has given you to take help from Him alone. How is it then that a person sees himself as a victim when all calamities, difficulties and trials, are ultimately tests from Allah. This does not mean the world is free of aggression and that victims have suddenly vanished. What I’m talking about is a person’s psychology in dealing with hardships. The sacred law has two perspectives when looking at acts of aggression that are committed by one party against another. When it is viewed by those in authority the imperative is to seek justice. However, from the perspective of the wronged, it is not to seek justice but instead to forgive.

Forgiveness, `afwa, pardon, is not a quality of authority. A court is not set up to forgive. It’s the plaintiff that’s required to forgive if there is going to be any forgiveness at all. Forgiveness will not come from the Qadi or the judge. The court is set up to give justice but Islam cautions us not to go there in the first place because ‘by the standard which you judge so too shall you be judged.’ That's the point. If you want justice, if you want God, the Supreme Judge of all affairs, to be just to others on your behalf, then you should know that your Lord will use the same standard with you. Nobody on the ‘Day of Arafat’ will pray: “Oh God, be just with me.” Instead you will hear them crying: O Allah, forgive me, have mercy on me, have compassion on me, overlook my wrongs. Yet, these same people are not willing to forgive, have compassion and mercy on other creatures of God.

We are not a people that are required to love wrong-doers. We must loath wrong actions, but at the same time we should love for the wrong-doers guidance because they are creatures of God and they were put here by the same God that put us here. And Allah says in the Quran “we made some of you a tribulation for others, will you then not show patience.” In other words, God set up the scenario, and then asked the question: ‘will you then not show patience?’ Will you subdue the inordinate desire for vengeance to achieve a higher station that is based on a conviction that you will be forgiven by God if only you can bring yourself to forgive others?

Q: Imam Al-Ghazali and earlier Miskawayh in his Tahdhib al-akhlaq, argued that for these virtues to be effective they had to be in harmony. Otherwise, they said, virtues would quickly degenerate into vices. Do you think that these virtues exist today among Muslims but that they are out of balance? For example, the Arabs in the time of the Prophet had courage, but without justice it was bravado. Prudence without justice is merely shrewdness. Do you think that Muslims are clamoring for justice but have subsumed the virtues of temperance and prudence?

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: Yes. Muslims want courage and justice but they don't want temperance and prudence. The four virtues relate to the four humors in the body. Physical sickness is related to spiritual sickness and when these four are out of balance, spiritual and moral sickness occurs. So when courage is the sole virtue, you no longer have prudence. You are acting courageously but imprudently and it's no longer courage but impetuousness. It appears as courage but it is not. A person who is morally incapable of controlling his appetite has incontinence and thus he cannot be prudent nor courageous because part of courage is to constrain oneself when it is appropriate. Imam al Ghazali says that courage is a mean between impetuousness and cowardice. The same is true for incontinence.


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## abdulhaqq

The person who has no appetite is not a temperate person but an impotent person and that's also a disease. Someone may have immense business acumen but uses it to accumulate massive amounts of wealth. That is not a prudent person but a crafty or clever person. Prudence is a mean between the extremes of stupidity and craftiness or what the Arabs call makr. The maakir is the one who is afflicted with the same condition that has afflicted Iblis the maakir, the clever. The interesting point to note about the four virtues is that you either take them all or you don’t take them at all. It’s a packaged deal. There is a strong argument among moral ethicists that justice is the result of the first three being in perfect balance.

Q: What I've realized is that people who don't have patience are often ridden with anxiety and tend to behave as if they can control the outcome of events in their lives. They even think that destiny is in their hands. They argue that if you do this and this you will achieve power, as if we have the ability to empower ourselves. Most of the contemporary Islamic movements seem to think that without state power a moral or an ethical Islamic society is impossible to achieve. Why do you think that is the case?

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: I think victimization is the result of powerlessness. The point is that powerlessness is our state. Powerlessness is a good state, not a bad one because all power is with God alone and He will make you powerful or powerless. I'll give you an example. If you go into the Alhambra Palace in Granada you will see written everywhere al `izu-lillah which means that strength, dignity and power is with God alone. By the time you get to the end of the last room it is changed to al` izu li maulana Abi `Abdillah or power and authority is with the protector Abu Abdallah, the last Caliph of Andalus or what is now southern Spain. So it begins with power and strength is for God alone and it ends with power, strength, and dignity is for our master Abu Abdillah. The point here is that if you want power, God won’t give it to you, but if you want to be powerless for the sake of God, God will empower you. That's just the way it works and here I am talking about the people of God.

Allah has divided the world into two types of people - those who are God- focused and those who are focused on other than God. The people that are focused on God will always follow certain principles and God will always give them the same results. The people who think that they are focused on God, but in fact are focused on other than God will never get success from God. The reason is that if they did indeed get success from God they would end up disgracing the religion of God by claiming to be people of God.

There are many outwardly religious people on the planet that think they are the people of God and they get frustrated when they are denied victory. This causes them often to get angry and you see their methods becoming more and more desperate. They fail to recognize that authority is not given to them because they’re not truly focused on God. They are instead focused on worldly power and they are self-righteous and self-centered in their arrogance, thinking that they are right while everyone else is wrong. The verse in the Quran that sums this up is in Sura Baqarah. Allah says, “They say no one will enter paradise unless they be a Jew or a Christian, These are vain wishes. Say to them, bring your evidence if you are speaking the truth. “Balaa man aslama wajhahu lillahi wa huwa muhsinun.” “No, rather the one who resigns his entire being to God is the one.” Ibn Juzay al Kalbi says: aslama wajhahu means he who submits his entire being to God which is Ihsan or excellence in one’s worship.

When the human being is in a state of submission - wa huwa muhsinun - everything that comes from him is beautiful and virtuous. Ihsan - ethics, virtuous, beauty, excellence - indicates that a human being will have his reward from his Lord. This is not from the God of a religion, but the God of the individual in a state of absolute submission. “Upon them there is no fear nor will they grieve.” To me, this is the greatest testimony that Islam is not about identity politics. Some among us want to reduce Islam to identity politics. They label themselves and point accusing fingers at each other. Allah says “indeed the one who has resigned his entire being to God and is virtuous, that is the one whose reward is with his Lord and upon them shall come no fear nor will they grieve. Replace the Jew and the Christian for some modern-day Muslims and you end up with the same phenomenon described above. The hadith says you will follow the Jews and the Christians to the extent that if they go down a lizard’s hole you'll go down with them. This is an authentic hadith. The hadith says every child is born with an inherent nature. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, didn't say every child is born a Muslim as a sociological identity. It says every child is born in a state of fitra and it’s the parents who determine its sociological category, to give it a modern interpretation.

Q: You have painted a very interesting landscape in terms of Muslim behavior in the contemporary period but we are seeing evidence of resentment among some Muslims today which is very strange indeed. I am wondering how this might be related to a sense of victimization?

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: Of course it is. Look for example at the word injury. It comes from injuria, a Latin word that means unjust. So if I perceive my condition as unjust it is contrary to the message of the Quran. Whatever circumstances we find ourselves in we hold ourselves as responsible. It gets tricky to navigate especially when it comes to the oppressor and the oppressed. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, along with the early Muslim community, spent 13 years purifying themselves in Mecca. These were years of oppression and thus serious self-purification accompanied by an ethic of nonviolence, forbearance, meekness, and humility. They were then given permission to migrate and to defend themselves. At this point they were not a people out to get vengeance and they were certainly not filled with resentment because they saw everything as coming from God.

I’m not talking about being pleased with injustice because that's prohibited. At the same time we accept the world our Lord has put us into and we see everything as being here purposefully, not without purpose, whether we understand it or not. We believe evil is from the Qadr (decree) of Allah and it's for a purpose, but there are two sides to choose from - the side of good and the side of evil. In order for you not to fall into the Manichean fallacy, God reminds you that not only is the struggle an external struggle but evil is an internal struggle as well. Therefore, those very things that you see on the outside they are also on the inside and to make it even clearer, the struggle inside is the greater Jihad because if you are not involved in the internal struggle you are not going to be able to fight the external one. Maulana Rumi said whenever you read Pharaoh in the Quran don’t think that he is some character that lived in the past, but seek him out in your own heart.

Q; So, if we've got all these negatives, vices, not virtues active in our hearts, love, it appears is an impossible task.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: The modern Christian fundamentalists always talk about Islam as a religion devoid of love. It’s a very common motif in these religious fundamentalist books that attack Islam. They say “our religion is the religion of love and Islam is the religion of hate, animosity, and resentment.” Unfortunately, many Muslims have adopted it as their religion, but that doesn’t mean resentment has anything to do with Islam. Love (Mahabba) is the highest religious virtue in Islam. Imam Ghazali said that it is the highest maqam or spiritual station. It is so because trust, zhud (doing with out), fear, and hope are stations of this world and so long as you are in this world these stations are relevant, but once you die they can no longer serve you. Love is eternal because love is the reason you were created. You were created to adore God. That’s why in Latin the word adore which is used for worship in English is also a word for love, adoration. You were created to worship God, in other words, to love Him because you can't truly adore something or worship something that you don't love. If you are worshipping out of fear, like Imam al Ghazali says, it's not the highest level of worship, but its lowest.

In other words, if you are worshipping God out of fear, if the reason that you are doings things is because you are afraid of Him, that he is going to punish you, that’s the lowest level of worship. That’s why it was said about the Prophet’s companion Suhaib al Rumi that had there been no fire or paradise he still would have worshipped Allah.


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## abdulhaqq

Q: A vast number of young Muslims today who have the energy to run down the road of hate do so thinking that it is a display of their Iman. What do you say to help them understand that hating wrongs has to be balanced with the virtues of mercy, justice, forgiveness, generosity, etc.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: I think one has to recognize that there are definitely things out there to hate but we have to be clear about hating the right things for the right reasons in the right amount.

The challenge is to get your object of hate right and hate it for the right reason. In other words, there are things that we should hate for the sake of God. Oppression is something that you should hate. Its not haram to hate the oppressor, but don’t hate them to the degree that it prevents you from being just because that is closer to Taqwa (awe of Allah). The higher position is to forgive for the sake of God. God gives you two choices -- the high road or the low road - both of them will get you to paradise. We should strive for the highest. Anger is a useful emotion. God created anger in order that we could act and respond to circumstances that need to be changed. Indignation is a beautiful word. Righteous indignation is a good quality and even though it is misused in modern English it’s actually a good thing. It means to be angry for the right reasons and then it is to be angry to the right degree because Allah says, “Do not let the loathing of a people prevent you from being just.”

In other words get angry but don’t let that anger get the best of you, don’t allow it to overcome you to the point where you want vengeance because vengeance is God’s alone. Allah is al-Muntaqim, The Avenger of wrongs. Human beings are not here to avenge wrongs they are here to redress wrong, not to avenge them. The ideal of loving those who revile you is the station of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. In the midst of the worst battle of his career, the battle of Uhud, he prayed, “Oh God guide my people for they do not know what they are doing.” He could not have uttered that if he had hatred in his heart. He could not have embraced Wahshi as his brother, the man who killed his most beloved uncle, if he had hatred in his heart. He could not have taken the oath of allegiance from Hind who ordered and paid for the assassination of Hamza and then bit into his liver to spite the Blessed Prophet if he had hatred in his heart. He took her oath of allegiance and she became a sister in faith. The Messenger of Allah is the best example.

He is the paragon who said: “None of you truly believes until he loves for his fellow man what he loves for himself.” And the reason why I say fellow man is that I think it’s a very accurate translation because Imam an Nawawi said that he is your brother because we are all children of Adam and Eve. So we should want for our fellow man guidance, a good life, and a good afterlife. None of you truly believes, in other words our Iman is not complete until we love for others what we love for ourselves and that includes the Jews, Christians, Buddhists and the Hindus.

Q: That breaks down the 'us versus them' paradigm that tend to inform the way Muslims see the world and themselves in it. That has been taken to a new level now in some of our mosques where the kuffar is a degree under and we don't have to pay attention to anything they say either about us or to us. Did our Prophet, upon him be peace and blessing, behave like this at all? I mean was he dismissive of anyone who wasn't from his community? It seems preposterous to convince anyone that we care about their welfare when we deride them.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: The point is that if you want to guide them then you have to be concerned with the way they perceive you. You have to be concerned with how they feel. The reason the Prophet upon him be peace and blessings, did not kill hypocrites was because he did not want the non-Muslims to say Muhammad kills his companions as a way of scaring people from entering into Islam.

So he preferred an action that will cause non-Muslims to look at Islam as a religion they would prefer to enter. The Prophet, peace be upon him was concerned to such an extent with what others thought that when one of his companions said that the Persians and Byzantines did not take letters seriously unless they had a seal on them, he told his companion to make him a seal.

He was concerned about how he presented himself to the people. Once he was combing his hair and Aisha, his blessed wife, asked him why he did that before he went out and he said my Lord commanded me to do this. In other words, to go out looking presentable to people is not vanity. Some Muslims get caught up in clothes and they get upset when others wear a tie and suit. They think it’s hypocrisy and that it is inappropriate. On the contrary, if one’s intention is correct, it’s actually an act of worship because you are doing it in order to present Islam, not yourself. You are, like the Prophet, recognizing that you are an ambassador of a religion and it becomes like the seal that the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessing, pressed onto the letters.

Many Muslims have divided the world into two groups - us and them. They will support Saddam Hussein because he’s a Muslim. In other words, they will support a man who may have killed more Muslims than any Muslim leader in the history of Islam or perhaps all of them put together. The argument from this segment of our Muslim community is that “I will back a mass murderer and go to a demonstration with his picture because he’s a Muslim and other people are Kuffar.” On the other hand, many Americans will back unjust American intervention simply because they believe “my country right or wrong.” Both sentiments is a form of tribalism and we are people of faith in God Almighty, not people of tribal allegiance.


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## abdulhaqq

Salam

I posted that for my Muslim brothers and sisters on this forum to remind them not to engage in the same smear tactics that are used by those who are engaging in a not-so-subtle propaganda against our faith in order to prevent people from making their own judgment.

People should get their own copies of the Qur'an and literature on Islam and make up their own minds. 

Don't base your faith on blind faith just because its what your ancestors did or what makes you feel good.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


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## Hessian

*No comment...*

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52699

its just sad....


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## TexasPride77

abdulhaqq,

I’ve yet to read all posts in this thread but just had to respond to your initial comments.  First of all, you will not survive in this forum unless you understand the humor of some of the members.  Don’t take things personal, most of the time comments are made as a satirical joke.

Anyways…let me begin:



> When does the modern era begin and when does it end?



Webster says “modern” means: of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past : CONTEMPORARY b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time

I would say that modern in sense of society would encompass the last 10 years, the previous 10 would be semi-contemporary, and previous 20 years contemporary.  Anything 30 and after is nostalgic.  



> These terms 'modernity' and 'traditionalism' are invented terms that are painfully insufficient for describing the complex phenomenon erupting in the Muslim world today.



So, what is this complex phenomenon?  What words do you use to describe the “phenomenon”?   



> The problems in the Muslim world … [are due to] social injustice from internal and external causes.



What are these causes?  Please elaborate, I want to know.  What social injustices are you referring to – please be specific?  What society are you referring to – the Muslim society or an International society of all peoples?




> Social injustice is not limited to particular social models. Social injustice can result from modern paradigms just as equally as they can arise from ancient paradigms.



I don’t know why I get the feeling you copied that out of some world history book but none less, I’ll play along.  Explain how modern paradigms have caused social injustice to the Muslim community as a whole?   I would like you to elaborate more on the specifics of the paradigm you are referring to.  Overall, it seems (I may be wrong) that you have made a big generalization about many things.  For you to be taken seriously, try not to talk so much like a politician and speak in laymen terms.  Discuss each area specifically and back up your claims with facts and not rhetoric.  

Secondly, and this is the most important reason why claiming that the struggle within the Muslim world is between the forces of modernity and medievialism is absolutely flawed, Islam holds within it the very same legal mechanisms to adapt to new circumstances just like the Constitution. Islam has systematically established dominance ine very corner of the world at different times without abandoning its core tenets by adopting its legal rulings to the particular needs of the people. Through the institution of taqleed, 



> Islam is able to retain a corporate coherency that other religions have been unable to attain (such as Christianity) while the doctrine of ijtehad (independent reasoning) enables Islam to adopt a flexibility that prevents the law from being inefficient and unjust (such as Judaism).



First, if Islam was able to retain corporate coherency, there would not be terrorists.  Granted the inquisition was wrong of Christianity it still fell within the accepted norms of Christianity at the time.  Of course, the inquisition was found to be wrong and ended a time later.  Independent reasoning in an interesting concept.  Who’s reasoning?  Ever hear of the phrase “Common sense is not so common.”?  Never forget the words of Frank Zappa, “Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”  Your perception of a law from being inefficient and unjust is due to your own “independent reasoning”.  Who are you to determine if a law is unjust when you do not live your life in accordance to a specific law?  I do not live in Iran, Iraq, Turkey, etc so the laws of the land and people do not mean anything to me.  If Muslims want to live in a Jewish state, that is their prerogative but it does not give them the right to complain about the laws of the land.  If you don’t like the laws of the land, you are welcomed to leave.  

What I think is troubling Islam is the fact that the democracy threatens the powers of the clergy.  If the people of the land are able to make the laws, then the church looses its power over the people.  Instead, the people obtain freedoms they were denied before.  1) Freedom of speech against government/church leaders 2) Freedom of choice of religion…. You get my point.

It is an individual’s prerogative to believe that their chosen religion is the “on true” religion.  It is not your right, nor anyone else’s to force a religion on a person who does not believe in that religion.  Nor do I believe it is a church’s right to dictate the way an individual lives their lives.  God gave man Free will.  Man has the right to choose to follow God or reject him.  It is not a right of man to make another man believe in God.  Unless you are participatory member or the long dead inquisition.  

 Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.  are 

 When the Muslim community is faced with a novel problem or issue that isn't directly addressed in the primary sources of Islamic jurisprudence, then one can engage in ijtehad or "independent reasoning." Thus, Islamic jurisprudence is constantly being adopted, reviewed, and revised in order to make it adapt to modern circumstances. This shows that 


> So to those who say that "islam is a medieval religion", really don't understand Islam. It contains legal mechanisms for adapting to any era or locality.



I disagree, I think that those who deny that Islam is IN FACT a medieval religion are in denial.  Democracy represents progress and there is no room in Islam for social progression – only stagnation.  If that is not the case then why have there been such issues with women’s rights?   The suffrage movement in America opened up many eyes and changed American history forever.  Perhaps such a movement is due in Islamic states.

I fail to understand why Muslims feel that non-Muslims MUST understand Islam.  Muslims counter Christians and say they are going to hell.  Oh yeah, that is reason for me to study Islam…to find out why I think extremist Muslims act as such idiots just because they disagree with my personal choice of religion.


So, with all this said – I do want it to be known that I do not think I all ready know the answers to life.  I do think that I am open minded enough to accept alternative points of view. If nothing else, I have not problem agreeing to disagree for the sake of attaining a mutually cordial atmosphere.


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## PJay

I've been being a good buck-a-roo.....searching the internet for truth as told



And I'm finding a lot of these type pages:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Good reads throughout. The discussion board is interesting as well.


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## TexasPride77

> Shaykh Hamza Yusuf: "The modern Christian fundamentalists always talk about Islam as a religion devoid of love. It’s a very common motif in these religious fundamentalist books that attack Islam. They say “our religion is the religion of love and Islam is the religion of hate, animosity, and resentment.”"



Why is it that Islamic clerics are not stepping up and instructing the Muslim communities to turn out the terrorists?  Extremests keep marring the face if Islam but the clerics (only ones who can actually do something about all this) sit on their hands and do nothing.  I'm sorry that Muslims have their feelings hurt because the overall perception delivered by the 10% have caused non-Muslims to resent the religion. Who's ultimate fault is that?  If Islam is so important to muslims, then Muslims need to build a fire under the tails of the clerics and tell them to get out there and start finding /promoting the turning in of extremesits.

I, as a Christian, could care less about Islam.  All I know is that the preception is that Muslims (non-American) want to cause harm to the US and do not have the courage to stand up and hold their clerics accountable for the short commings of the religions governements.  Then again, I see the clerics messages broadcasted on Islamic TV preaching for Muslims to kill America and rule the world - WTF?

So, I agree, i am ignorant of how Islam functions and I really dont care.  I do know that Muslims (the good ones) have been dealt an unfair hand but also do nothing about it.  How do you purpose i am to feel about that?


----------



## TexasPride77

Homesick said:
			
		

> I've been being a good buck-a-roo.....searching the internet for truth as told And I'm finding a lot of these type pages:
> http://www.apostatesofislam.com/Good reads throughout. The discussion board is interesting as well.




REALLY good read...thanks for sharing!


----------



## PJay

Oh, I meant to ask since this is all about learning...do Muslims here in America like and eat pork?


----------



## AliSamana

itsbob said:
			
		

> THIS I believe with all my heart.. there is nothing so innocent on this earth as a newborn child.. They carry no sin.. no mistakes, no errors from past generations.  They are wholly clean, and anyone that can look into a newborns eyes and say different has truly lost their mind.



Amen to that!


----------



## PJay

AliSamana said:
			
		

> 1.  Thanks, I love talking to geiuses like you!
> 2.  Come sit through a Friday prayer, everyone is referred to as Brother of Sister, even non-muslims.
> 3. How about us muslims serving in the Military? care to hear our opinion?
> "In the United States, Islam is the fastest growing religion, a trend fueled mostly by immigration. There are 5 million to 7 million Muslims in the United States. They make up between 10,000 and 20,000 members of the American military." (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2001/n10042001_200110043.html)



1. Most welcome. And you are not behavin as your brother tole ya, so behave.   
2. Thanks for the invite but I'll pass. Nothing personal, not into any religion.
3. I appreciate more than words can describe anyones service to our country but I do not appreciate the way you made it sound. If you are truly an American then you know what I mean.


----------



## AliSamana

Hessian said:
			
		

> How much $$ flowed into the Tsunami zone from America? Billions.
> How much came in from Moslem countries: a trickle.
> Tell me all about your charity...you won't even give to fellow moslems in need, instead, there was a condemnation of the dead because they were catering to western tourists and thus Allah punished them.
> 
> Very charitable.



I will take you seriously when you learn how to spell MUSLIM properly


----------



## Toxick

AliSamana said:
			
		

> I will take you seriously when you learn how to spell MUSLIM properly







In written English, both spellings are acceptable.

That's one of the wonderful things about translations between languages without a 1:1 letter ratio.


"Muslim" is in more widespread use, but both are in use. I used to spell it "moslem", until I switched over after reading it the other way so often in the news.


----------



## AliSamana

Pushrod said:
			
		

> Meelak,
> So you are saying you are at war with the non-Muslims, and this is the reason for the atrocities that we are seeing today? This I can believe.
> 
> You're still avoiding my question *about why Islam as a whole (especially the leaders of the Muslim communities) haven't stood up and called for a Jihad against the so-called rogue Muslims giving the rest of you "good" Muslims a black eye with their terrorist actions against civilians, both Muslim and Infide*l.
> 
> Also, I'm not trying to say Christianity is a better religion or makes more sense than the Islamic religion, I just don't see large factions of Christians out there bombing, beheading and otherwise murdering untold numbers of people at this time. And when a rogue group of non-Muslim people do commit such attrocities, you would see the entire christian/agnostic/atheist population come together to put a stop to it. I haven't seen that yet in the Muslim world.
> 
> I don't "hate" all Muslims, but right now I consider all Muslims my enemy. There is a distinction. If what you call the "vocal" minority ever ceases their rhetoric and makes peace with all religions\non-religions of the world and vows to live side by side with them without restrictions, and ceases this senseless TERRORISM, then they would cease to be my enemy.




All 1.4 billion are coming over to your house today to condemn 9/11. I like my tea with 1 teaspoon of sugar.  See ya at 7.


----------



## PJay

AliSamana said:
			
		

> All 1.4 billion are coming over to your house today to condemn 9/11. I like my tea with 1 teaspoon of sugar.  See ya at 7.



How about that, me too, 1 teaspoon will do.

How about pork chops on the grill? Truly hope you are not turning that noise up before you try them. They are good, I promise.

What kinda veggie do you like?


----------



## meelak

FromTexas wrote "The Palestinians and others were the first to turn it violent."

Are you sure you read all the links I sent. You see in 1895, they were less than 1%. When all of the Europe was driving them - who gave them shelter? who opened their doors for them? I am  repeatedly asking you all this question - If somebody takes over your house by force, will you just accept to that fact or will you stand up for your rights? Thank you. I think I got the answer.


----------



## AliSamana

TexasPride77 said:
			
		

> abdulhaqq,
> 
> I’ve yet to read all posts in this thread but just had to respond to your initial comments.  First of all, you will not survive in this forum unless you understand the humor of some of the members.  Don’t take things personal, most of the time comments are made as a satirical joke.
> 
> Anyways…let me begin:
> 
> 
> 
> Webster says “modern” means: of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past : CONTEMPORARY b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time
> 
> I would say that modern in sense of society would encompass the last 10 years, the previous 10 would be semi-contemporary, and previous 20 years contemporary.  Anything 30 and after is nostalgic.
> 
> 
> 
> So, what is this complex phenomenon?  What words do you use to describe the “phenomenon”?
> 
> 
> 
> What are these causes?  Please elaborate, I want to know.  What social injustices are you referring to – please be specific?  What society are you referring to – the Muslim society or an International society of all peoples?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know why I get the feeling you copied that out of some world history book but none less, I’ll play along.  Explain how modern paradigms have caused social injustice to the Muslim community as a whole?   I would like you to elaborate more on the specifics of the paradigm you are referring to.  Overall, it seems (I may be wrong) that you have made a big generalization about many things.  For you to be taken seriously, try not to talk so much like a politician and speak in laymen terms.  Discuss each area specifically and back up your claims with facts and not rhetoric.
> 
> Secondly, and this is the most important reason why claiming that the struggle within the Muslim world is between the forces of modernity and medievialism is absolutely flawed, Islam holds within it the very same legal mechanisms to adapt to new circumstances just like the Constitution. Islam has systematically established dominance ine very corner of the world at different times without abandoning its core tenets by adopting its legal rulings to the particular needs of the people. Through the institution of taqleed,
> 
> 
> 
> First, if Islam was able to retain corporate coherency, there would not be terrorists.  Granted the inquisition was wrong of Christianity it still fell within the accepted norms of Christianity at the time.  Of course, the inquisition was found to be wrong and ended a time later.  Independent reasoning in an interesting concept.  Who’s reasoning?  Ever hear of the phrase “Common sense is not so common.”?  Never forget the words of Frank Zappa, “Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”  Your perception of a law from being inefficient and unjust is due to your own “independent reasoning”.  Who are you to determine if a law is unjust when you do not live your life in accordance to a specific law?  I do not live in Iran, Iraq, Turkey, etc so the laws of the land and people do not mean anything to me.  If Muslims want to live in a Jewish state, that is their prerogative but it does not give them the right to complain about the laws of the land.  If you don’t like the laws of the land, you are welcomed to leave.
> 
> *What I think is troubling Islam is the fact that the democracy threatens the powers of the clergy.  If the people of the land are able to make the laws, then the church looses its power over the people.  Instead, the people obtain freedoms they were denied before.  1) Freedom of speech against government/church leaders 2) Freedom of choice of religion…. You get my point.*
> 
> It is an individual’s prerogative to believe that their chosen religion is the “on true” religion.  It is not your right, nor anyone else’s to force a religion on a person who does not believe in that religion.  Nor do I believe it is a church’s right to dictate the way an individual lives their lives.  God gave man Free will.  Man has the right to choose to follow God or reject him.  It is not a right of man to make another man believe in God.  Unless you are participatory member or the long dead inquisition.
> 
> Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.  are
> 
> When the Muslim community is faced with a novel problem or issue that isn't directly addressed in the primary sources of Islamic jurisprudence, then one can engage in ijtehad or "independent reasoning." Thus, Islamic jurisprudence is constantly being adopted, reviewed, and revised in order to make it adapt to modern circumstances. This shows that
> 
> 
> *I disagree, I think that those who deny that Islam is IN FACT a medieval religion are in denial.  Democracy represents progress and there is no room in Islam for social progression – only stagnation.  If that is not the case then why have there been such issues with women’s rights?   The suffrage movement in America opened up many eyes and changed American history forever.  Perhaps such a movement is due in Islamic states.*
> 
> I fail to understand why Muslims feel that non-Muslims MUST understand Islam.  Muslims counter Christians and say they are going to hell.  Oh yeah, that is reason for me to study Islam…to find out why I think extremist Muslims act as such idiots just because they disagree with my personal choice of religion.
> 
> 
> So, with all this said – I do want it to be known that I do not think I all ready know the answers to life.  I do think that I am open minded enough to accept alternative points of view. If nothing else, I have not problem agreeing to disagree for the sake of attaining a mutually cordial atmosphere.



Hi TexasPride:

I know you posted this for AbdulHaqq, but I can make two small points that may move this a little forward.  On the first section you mentioned the power of the clergy in Islam. In reality the clergy have very little power in Islam if that.  The Clergy cannot guarantee me heaven of hell, cannot even tell me if a certain sin has been forgiven or not. Anyone can lead a prayer (be the Imam) as long as that person has the basic knowledge of Islam. If 4 people are praying, the most knowledgable should lead the prayer, if a fifth with more knowledge comes in, he should get to lead the prayer. Islam also has no  person between the believer and God, if one makes a mistake, he can apologize straight to God. Many of prayers can also be performed in private, meaning there is no clergy.

As for Women's rights, Islam was one of the first religions to give women their rights.  Before Islam newborn girls were buried alive in Saudi because they were considered a liability.  Islam abandoned that practice.  Also, in Islam a woman has the right to property, right to divorce, right to engage in business or other transactions etc.


----------



## meelak

Pete said:
			
		

> Oh please, people hate you and you lost your standing because of your people blowing up pizza parlors, buses, wedding receptions, killing women and children, embasies, hostage taking, beheadings, high jacking planes trains and ships, dancing in the streets at the slightest misfortune that befalls the west.  Get over the victimhood, grow up and purge the barbarians then come to the table.  Your doubletalk is tiresome.



Oh, so you are the spokesman for the "people". Is this the best trick you can come up with - asking people to shut up just because they asked you question that you cannot honestly answer or reason.


----------



## meelak

Mikeinsmd said:
			
		

> By crikey I think the girl got it!!!
> 
> 
> Look at all that in bold and colors up there.  What a peaceful religion this is!!



What about the violence prescribed in the bible that I quoted.


----------



## meelak

Homesick said:
			
		

> I've been being a good buck-a-roo.....searching the internet for truth as told
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm finding a lot of these type pages:
> 
> http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
> 
> Good reads throughout. The discussion board is interesting as well.



I can paste hundreds of links of the people who left christianity and accepted other religions and all the bad things they had written and it will not prove anything. It is beyond childishness and utmost stupidity to assume that personal opinion of one person or one group constitute the entire religion. Please grow up!!!


----------



## AliSamana

Homesick said:
			
		

> Oh, I meant to ask since this is all about learning...do Muslims here in America like and eat pork?



Nope, pork is forbidden in Islam. Neither do we drink, go to strip clubs, do drugs or have premarital sex. Those that follow the religion that is...


----------



## AliSamana

Homesick said:
			
		

> 1. Most welcome. And you are not behavin as your brother tole ya, so behave.
> 2. Thanks for the invite but I'll pass. Nothing personal, not into any religion.
> 3. I appreciate more than words can describe anyones service to our country but I do not appreciate the way you made it sound. If you are truly an American then you know what I mean.



The only thing I meant was we may not be covered by the media but we are out there, trying to kick "terrorism butt" as you put it


----------



## AliSamana

Homesick said:
			
		

> How about that, me too, 1 teaspoon will do.
> 
> How about pork chops on the grill? Truly hope you are not turning that noise up before you try them. They are good, I promise.
> 
> What kinda veggie do you like?




  Well at least you and I can enjoy the humor in this post...


----------



## meelak

Homesick said:
			
		

> Oh, I meant to ask since this is all about learning...do Muslims here in America like and eat pork?



I cannot speak for all the muslims. But me and my family and all the muslims I have across in this country stay away from anything that has pork and alcohol. Some of the christian colleagues that I work with on the base also don't eat pork. That doesn't make them any less american. Does it??? The christian bible also says pig is a unclean animal and you should not eat. But ask anyone around you what is for dinner and they will say, "the other white meat". 

Here are the references.

Lev. Chap 11 Verses 1 thru 8. Here is verse 7 and 8.
Lev.11 [7] "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you."
[8] Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Deut. Chap 14 [8] "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase."

By the way, if you are not sure what christians are allowed or not allowed to eat, read Lev. Chap 11 and Deut. Chap 14 in its entirety.


----------



## PJay

meelak said:
			
		

> I can paste hundreds of links of the people who left christianity and accepted other religions and all the bad things they had written and it will not prove anything. It is beyond childishness and utmost stupidity to assume that personal opinion of one person or one group constitute the entire religion. Please grow up!!!



Yes you are right, I knew you'd come back with that but, Christianity isn't the topic for once. If you ever have the time to read the other threads in this part of the forum you will see the Christians get a beating too. 

IMHO you need to be more understanding at this point in time with folks on this subject.


----------



## PJay

meelak said:
			
		

> I cannot speak for all the muslims. But me and my family and all the muslims I have across in this country stay away from anything that has pork and alcohol. Some of the christian colleagues that I work with on the base also don't eat pork. That doesn't make them any less american. Does it??? The christian bible also says pig is a unclean animal and you should not eat. But ask anyone around you what is for dinner and they will say, "the other white meat".



I was curious, that's all. You can eat pork or not, I do not care. The same for Christians.


----------



## Toxick

meelak said:
			
		

> The *Jewish* bible - what Christians call "The Old Testament" - also says pig is a unclean animal and you should not eat.






			
				meelak said:
			
		

> By the way, if you are not sure what *Jews* are allowed or not allowed to eat, read Lev. Chap 11 and Deut. Chap 14 in its entirety.




There ya go. I fixed that all up for you, for accuracy.



Christians are not bound by Old Testament Laws - courtesy of Christ Jesus. We just keep the Old Testament around because we like to read all the nifty prophecies of Jesus which were written way before he was born.




Actually, we just had a long discussion about this very subject a few weeks ago in here.


----------



## Kain99

Toxick said:
			
		

> Christians are not bound by Old Testament Laws - courtesy of Christ Jesus. We just keep the Old Testament around because we like to read all the nifty prophecies of Jesus which were written way before he was born.


"The other white book"


----------



## TexasPride77

AliSamana said:
			
		

> In reality the clergy have very little power in Islam if that.  The Clergy cannot guarantee me heaven of hell, cannot even tell me if a certain sin has been forgiven or not. Anyone can lead a prayer (be the Imam) as long as that person has the basic knowledge of Islam.



The clergy may not have political power but they have influencial power and use their "preaching" to twist words of the Quran so their own political views are expressed.  If the clergy do not have power to influence Muslims, then why is it that the leaders of services are having the congregations chanting "Death To America"?  It is just a shame that the US is not getting direct broadcasts of Iraqi Tv...

Perhaps my understanding of all this is off....i would like you to argue some of the points Glenn Beck has brought to light as well in regards to Islam and the Clergy....   www.glennbeck.com


----------



## vraiblonde

How we doing in here?  Everyone playing nicely?


----------



## Pushrod

Homesick said:
			
		

> How about that, me too, 1 teaspoon will do.
> 
> How about pork chops on the grill? Truly hope you are not turning that noise up before you try them. They are good, I promise.
> 
> What kinda veggie do you like?



Sorry Homesick, y'all have to get by with ham sandwhiches, I'm on a budget you know! 1.4 billion, damn, I need more ammo.

kidding aside

They still have not answered the most asked question on this thread yet, as why the religious leaders (clerics) are not standing up in mass and condemning the actions of the terrorist and calling for their heads!?


----------



## MMDad

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> How we doing in here?  Everyone playing nicely?


So, have the anti-christians or the anti-muslims converted you yet? Their hate doesn't do anything to make me want to think either of them are right.

Maybe the Buddhists...


----------



## AliSamana

TexasPride77 said:
			
		

> The clergy may not have political power but they have influencial power and use their "preaching" to twist words of the Quran so their own political views are expressed.  If the clergy do not have power to influence Muslims, then why is it that the leaders of services are having the congregations chanting "Death To America"?  It is just a shame that the US is not getting direct broadcasts of Iraqi Tv...
> 
> Perhaps my understanding of all this is off....i would like you to argue some of the points Glenn Beck has brought to light as well in regards to Islam and the Clergy....   www.glennbeck.com



You are right in some respect, some people do put too much emphasis on their Imam, however, that is not supposed to be this way. I explained to you what Islam teaches, I obviously cannot explain what every muslim thinks or follows.  However, after 9/11 some media 

I do watch Glenn Beck, he talks about not spinning yet he is one of the biggest spinners in the media today.  Everything he does has a financial motive, if you cannot tell by his show.  Right now, he is on lets bash Islam bandwagon, tomorrow it may be mormons.  

Lets talk specific points about Islam if you want.  Everyone can find a person who is against a rellgion and point out websites.  Looking forward to an insighful dscussion.


----------



## AliSamana

Pushrod said:
			
		

> Sorry Homesick, y'all have to get by with ham sandwhiches, I'm on a budget you know! 1.4 billion, damn, I need more ammo.
> 
> kidding aside
> 
> They still have not answered the most asked question on this thread yet, as why the religious leaders (clerics) are not standing up in mass and condemning the actions of the terrorist and calling for their heads!?



Repost the question...I can't remember what you are talking about.


----------



## AliSamana

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Repost the question...I can't remember what you are talking about.



My bad, just saw that up there 

Clerics do condemn terrorism in many sermons and prayers, but it is not covered by the media at all.  Now, since you do not go to any Muslim prayers and have not heard a cleric talk about Terrorism, I am sure you have not called one for his opinion either, how can you say they don't?


----------



## TexasPride77

AliSamana said:
			
		

> I do watch Glenn Beck, he talks about not spinning yet he is one of the biggest spinners in the media today.  Everything he does has a financial motive, if you cannot tell by his show.  Right now, he is on lets bash Islam bandwagon, tomorrow it may be mormons.




As for as Beck, I agree he does his share of spinning but I dont think he out does anyone. He does have a knack for pointing out things missed (ignored) by the media and how the media circumvents important facts to exploit news.  

I also do not believe (as he has made it very clear) that he is against Muslims.  The video segments he shows are from Iraqi TV and are of church services....displaying the clergy preaching hate into the congregations.  If people are non-clergy and are holding rallies they should not be using God's name to endorse their agenda's.  If they do, the clergy should be standing up and making a BIG stink about it.  Again, I understand that clergy do not have political power necessarily but it is the clergy that people listen to (especially extremists) and follow instruction.



> some people do put too much emphasis on their Imam, however, that is not supposed to be this way.



 Muslims should have thick skins and take criticism as it is....not go ape sh!t because someone insulted them.  Christians get insulted all the time and you dont see them blowing up themselves/buildings/innocent people.  The way that things ARE and the way they are NOT suppose to be are two different things.  Reality is a fact!  Perception is 9/10ths of the law in the public eye.  If Muslims want to end the criticisms then have the clergy grow balls and start standing up for the people.  Denounce the terrorists in the same way that terrorists denounce non-Muslim countries.  Honestly, a church ran country is just not going to work.  Leaders are going to hire their own Imams who are going to twist sacred words to benefit the agendas of the leaders.  It happens everywhere...even in America (its just not as prevalent).


----------



## vraiblonde

I am currently reading a For Dummies book about the history of the Middle East.  Very interesting stuff.


----------



## TexasPride77

AliSamana said:
			
		

> My bad, just saw that up there
> Clerics do condemn terrorism in many sermons and prayers, but it is not covered by the media at all.  Now, since you do not go to any Muslim prayers and have not heard a cleric talk about Terrorism, I am sure you have not called one for his opinion either, how can you say they don't?



What goes on behind closed doors stays behind closed doors.  Extremist clergy and terrorists are not behind closed doors.  They are out in the open with TV cameras on them.  They want to make sure their message is getting out and it does!! 

“…how can you say they don't?”  Well...because on a grand scale - they dont.  The Islamic church needs to unite as one entity and publicly denounce terrorism.  Find the extremists....kick them from the Mosques and turn them over to the international police.  Until the day comes where Muslims all over the world take a unified stand against terrorism, 911 will defame their good names forever.


----------



## AliSamana

TexasPride77 said:
			
		

> What goes on behind closed doors stays behind closed doors.  Extremist clergy and terrorists are not behind closed doors.  They are out in the open with TV cameras on them.  They want to make sure their message is getting out and it does!!
> 
> “…how can you say they don't?”  Well...because on a grand scale - they dont.  The Islamic church needs to unite as one entity and publicly denounce terrorism.  Find the extremists....kick them from the Mosques and turn them over to the international police.  Until the day comes where Muslims all over the world take a unified stand against terrorism, 911 will defame their good names forever.



Do you think ratings may have something to do what is covered in the media?  Fear sells more newspaper than peace and love. 

Muslims also do not know who is a terrorist and who is not.  They are secretive from us mainstream muslims as well.  I have prayed at many mosques and know many muslims.  I don't know of any terrorists, if I did do you think I would think twice about calling the police? you bet not, we are in the same mess that most Americans are in.


----------



## TexasPride77

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Do you think ratings may have something to do what is covered in the media?  Fear sells more newspaper than peace and love.



Ratings have everything to do with what is covered.  Just think how high the ratings would be if all the Grand Ayatolahs arranged a press conference and told the world that they encouraged all Muslims who knew of terrorists to tell the leaders of their Mosques or the local authorities.  

My issue is that all the preaching is done behind doors.  The Islamic clergy as a whole has not stepped up and attemped to clean up the name of Islam. In fact, I hear that some clergy are supporting terrorists (that’s what I hear).  Preaching to the locals is not enough when the religion’s problems are global.


----------



## vraiblonde

AliSamana said:
			
		

> Do you think ratings may have something to do what is covered in the media?  Fear sells more newspaper than peace and love.


That is completely true.

I think, by and large, American Muslims are loyal to the US.  If anything, they're torn, much the same as Jews in this country.

Foreign Muslims, however, are victims of their ignorance.  And the ignorance isn't even their fault because Islamic governments aren't the most supportive of free press and speech.  That's is why they have this idea that the US is the Great Satan and out to annihilate the world.

Why do you suppose these countries restrict the internet?  Obviously it's to keep their citizens from gaining information.  I have sympathy for these people - it's not their fault they've been fed propaganda all their lives.  But we can't let that stand in the way of protecting ourselves and our allies.

Israel is a big bugaboo with me.  I think we should support them more wholeheartedly.  I also think the UN plays a large role in global anti-Semitism, which is one of the reasons I think we should quit them.  Yasser Arafat should have been forced to make a deal, instead of treated like some dignitary (as opposed to the terrorist leader he was).

I'm also not a big fan of Arab countries because they're backward as hell, which is their business, but I don't want my tax dollars going for their weapons programs (see my comments on Israel above).


----------



## Toxick

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I think, by and large, American Muslims are loyal to the US.  If anything, they're torn, much the same as Jews in this country.
> 
> Foreign Muslims, however, are victims of their ignorance.  And the ignorance isn't even their fault because Islamic governments aren't the most supportive of free press and speech.  That's is why they have this idea that the US is the Great Satan and out to annihilate the world.






I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


----------



## abdulhaqq

*Why Islamophobes run away from face to face debates*
This is a clip of Nadir Ahmed of Examine the truth on why and how the usual suspects refuse to debate. 

Nadir Ahmed is offering $5,000 for Islamophobes to support their claims that Islam advocates terrorism and giving him the ability to respond. 

http://www.wmnf.org/includes/playarchive.php?ArchiveId=2499&Type=MP3


----------



## abdulhaqq

*Q. Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?*

A. The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.

There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).

It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.

Another similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.

This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).

Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."

Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.

The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):

"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."


----------



## meelak

itsbob said:
			
		

> SO this brings us back to 1917 and the Establishment of Palestine to facilitate the Jewish..
> 
> SO if the Israelites agree to Saudi's terms, Jordan would have to abdicate to Israel..



I guess you did not see the maps I posted of the 1800s and the early 1900s. Israel was not even on the map. So, as per your suggestion, if they go back, all that land should be called Palestine.


----------



## meelak

FromTexas said:
			
		

> Oh, by the way, which of all the different empires who owned the land should be allowed to come back and claim it now by your definition of "it used to be part of this, so it should be theirs again"?  Should we give it to the Ptolemics, Jewish, Ottomans, etc...?



If it was won by war - it is a different story. Here there was no war. Slowly, when europe was driving them out, they came in truck loads and settled and all of a sudden, it is their land. Do you see it is a different story here?


----------



## meelak

Toxick said:
			
		

> There ya go. I fixed that all up for you, for accuracy.
> 
> 
> 
> Christians are not bound by Old Testament Laws - courtesy of Christ Jesus. We just keep the Old Testament around because we like to read all the nifty prophecies of Jesus which were written way before he was born.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we just had a long discussion about this very subject a few weeks ago in here.



This is very enlightening. Even from their own religious scripture people think it is okay to pick and choose what they will comply and what they will not comply with. By saying what you said above, you are making a mockery of your own faith.


----------



## meelak

TexasPride77 said:
			
		

> The clergy may not have political power but they have influencial power and use their "preaching" to twist words of the Quran so their own political views are expressed.  If the clergy do not have power to influence Muslims, then why is it that the leaders of services are having the congregations chanting "Death To America"?  It is just a shame that the US is not getting direct broadcasts of Iraqi Tv...
> 
> Perhaps my understanding of all this is off....i would like you to argue some of the points Glenn Beck has brought to light as well in regards to Islam and the Clergy....   www.glennbeck.com



Here we go again, just by looking at one TV program for an hour a day you think you are going to get the total un-biased view of one religion and its followers - I feel sorry for you.


----------



## meelak

Pushrod said:
			
		

> Sorry Homesick, y'all have to get by with ham sandwhiches, I'm on a budget you know! 1.4 billion, damn, I need more ammo.
> 
> kidding aside
> 
> They still have not answered the most asked question on this thread yet, as why the religious leaders (clerics) are not standing up in mass and condemning the actions of the terrorist and calling for their heads!?



This has been answered over and over and over and over again. How do you know the clerics are not standing up and preaching against terrorism when you are only seeing your CNN, FOX, ABC, etc. When our media is looking for only the negatives and showing them and brushing aside the positive efforts from other people as if that is not important to share at all. 

For example, the most influential cleric in his Haj sermon addressing 2.5 to 3.0 million people in one gathering in Mecca last year gave the following sermon and asked people to shun terrorism and not support militants. Did this get shown by the media here. I can list countless other news archive links where the islamic clerics have stood up against terrorism and militancy. Let me know if you are interested. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,1394920,00.html

Just go beyond our regular CNN, FOX, ABC, MSN, etc. you will get the real un-biased news. 

Look at the following statements from powerful clerics against terrorism. 

http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2649


So, now do you feel this question has been answered???


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> I am currently reading a For Dummies book about the history of the Middle East.  Very interesting stuff.



Very good start. Happy reading!!!

Once you see the facts you will know what I am talking about. The sad thing is that we cannot do anything about it.


----------



## vraiblonde

meelak said:
			
		

> This is very enlightening. Even from their own religious scripture people think it is okay to pick and choose what they will comply and what they will not comply with. By saying what you said above, you are making a mockery of your own faith.


This is not picking and choosing - it's the fundamental basis for Christianity.  Nor is it a mockery, because the Christian faith is based of belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

You want people to respect your religion, but you do not seem very willing to reciprocate.


----------



## vraiblonde

meelak said:
			
		

> Once you see the facts you will know what I am talking about.


So far it's not looking real good for the Arabs.


----------



## Toxick

meelak said:
			
		

> Even from their own religious scripture people think it is okay to pick and choose what they will comply and what they will not comply with.




If I may, this is a completely inaccurate and 100% false statement.

There is no picking and choosing. 


That Jesus freed us from the Old Covenant is the ENTIRE FOUNDATION of Christianity. That's why the The Christian Bible is divided into two books called "The *OLD* Testament" and "The *NEW* Testament". The implication is that the New Testament and its laws override the Old Testament and its laws. There is no picking and choosing involved. I strive to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Period. ALL of them - with no picking and choosing.


I suppose, that if you don't believe in Original Sin, and the need for salvation, along with the death and resurrection of Christ, this dividing line between the Old and the New Testaments would not make much of a difference to you.


To a Christian, however, it makes ALL the difference.






			
				meelak said:
			
		

> By saying what you said above, you are making a mockery of your own faith.




Well, I'm not going to lose sleep because you think that. You also say that Christians engage in polytheism even after you have been point blank TOLD that it's not true, by at least two practicing Christians.


I assume you came here to gain understanding of our religion - as well as promote an understanding of your own. Even though I have not been highly active in my participation in this thread, I have been reading and thinking seriously about what you and _abdulhaqq_ have said, and I think I understand your religion a little better. I'm even planning on rereading the Koran more thoroughly - not because I'm thinking about converting, but to further my understanding.


As for gaining an understanding of Christianity, it is apparent that you've made no progress. I suppose can understand that - based on the amount of vitriol and venom that have been spewed in your direction over the past few days. However, I would not presume to tell you what you believe, based on my admittedly meeger understanding of Islam. I will kindly appreciate it if you would offer me the same courtesy.


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> This is not picking and choosing - it's the fundamental basis for Christianity.  Nor is it a mockery, because the Christian faith is based of belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
> 
> You want people to respect your religion, but you do not seem very willing to reciprocate.



If the bible says don't eat the port, if I am a christian then I must not eat it. If I say, I will go ahead and do it because it is not applicable to me or I don't believe in that edict, then I am making fun of god's words. What else can you call it?


----------



## RoseRed

meelak said:
			
		

> If the bible says don't eat the port, if I am a christian then I must not eat it. If I say, I will go ahead and do it because it is not applicable to me or I don't believe in that edict, then I am making fun of god's words. What else can you call it?



I usually drink my port.


----------



## meelak

vraiblonde said:
			
		

> So far it's not looking real good for the Arabs.



Exactly. If you pick up a book written by one side - you are going to be presented the story from their view only. Go to the authentic sources like UN, US government archives, wikipedia, etc.


----------



## meelak

Toxick said:
			
		

> If I may, this is a completely inaccurate and 100% false statement.
> 
> There is no picking and choosing.
> 
> 
> That Jesus freed us from the Old Covenant is the ENTIRE FOUNDATION of Christianity. That's why the The Christian Bible is divided into two books called "The *OLD* Testament" and "The *NEW* Testament". The implication is that the New Testament and its laws override the Old Testament and its laws. There is no picking and choosing involved. I strive to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Period. ALL of them - with no picking and choosing.
> 
> 
> I suppose, that if you don't believe in Original Sin, and the need for salvation, along with the death and resurrection of Christ, this dividing line between the Old and the New Testaments would not make much of a difference to you.
> 
> 
> To a Christian, however, it makes ALL the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not going to lose sleep because you think that. You also say that Christians engage in polytheism even after you have been point blank TOLD that it's not true, by at least two practicing Christians.
> 
> 
> I assume you came here to gain understanding of our religion - as well as promote an understanding of your own. Even though I have not been highly active in my participation in this thread, I have been reading and thinking seriously about what you and _abdulhaqq_ have said, and I think I understand your religion a little better. I'm even planning on rereading the Koran more thoroughly - not because I'm thinking about converting, but to further my understanding.
> 
> 
> As for gaining an understanding of Christianity, it is apparent that you've made no progress. I suppose can understand that - based on the amount of vitriol and venom that have been spewed in your direction over the past few days. However, I would not presume to tell you what you believe, based on my admittedly meeger understanding of Islam. I will kindly appreciate it if you would offer me the same courtesy.



Just answer me a simple question. How many books are there in the christian bible? Does it include the old testament and the new testament or is only the new testament called the bible? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot include the old testaments into the bible and say, "Oh, it is not applicable to us". Then say only the new testament is the whole bible - that will make a lot of things clear interms of understanding how many books are there in the bible. Depending on which christian I ask I get a different answer. 

Also, I have no disrespect for any christianity. As I stated in my earlier posts, there are several verses in the Qur'an that commands muslims to believe in that which was revealed to the last and final prophet as well as to that which was revealed to the earlier prophets. But what my point was that we do not have any right to pick and choose what we practice and not practice from the god's words. When we say we believe, we have to believe in its entirety.


----------



## meelak

Based on popular request, here it is one more time. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/sto...1394920,00.html


Look at the following statements from powerful clerics against terrorism. 

http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2649


----------



## abdulhaqq

Bush criticizes anti-Islam letter by official's wife

The Associated Press


November 02. 2006 6:01AM
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ST. PETERSBURG - Gov. Jeb Bush on Wednesday criticized remarks a Hernando County commissioner's wife made calling Islam a "hateful, frightening religion."

In an Oct. 23 letter to the St. Petersburg Times, Mary Ann Hogan objected to the county's assistance to a mosque celebration of the end of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting.

"The stated goal of the Muslim faith is to kill us, the 'infidels.' By providing county employees for their use Hernando County is sanctioning this hateful, frightening religion," she wrote.

Commissioner Tom Hogan Sr., a Republican, defended his wife's comments in a story posted Wednesday on the newspaper's Web site.

"I'm not seeing that as bigotry, because I don't feel bigoted on it. It's just a matter of fact," he said.

Bush, who appointed Tom Hogan in August, condemned the couple's remarks.

"He's disappointed. He thought their comments were entirely inappropriate," said Alia Faraj, a spokeswoman for the governor.

"Florida is built on its diverse background, different cultures and religions - it's what makes Florida so strong," she said. "The Arab-Americans living in our state are just as patriotic as the rest of us."

Two other county commissioners, both Democrats, and the Tampa chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the nation's largest Islamic advocacy group, have called for Tom Hogan's resignation.

"It's an unfortunate occurrence because we are a very diverse community with people from all backgrounds and religions," said Commissioner Nancy Robinson, a Republican.

A Muslim community leader donated $200 to the county parks department to borrow some outdoor children's games, which are available to any group for a $50 deposit, said Pat Fagan, director of parks and recreation.

A county employee dropped off and picked up the games, and the department had planned to send a staffer to the celebration to help out, but a complaint from Tom Hogan prompted officials to decide it was inappropriate to use county resources to staff a religious event, Fagan said.

http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/LOCAL/211020348/1078/news


----------



## Toxick

meelak said:
			
		

> Just answer me a simple question. How many books are there in the christian bible? Does it include the old testament and the new testament or is only the new testament called the bible?



There are two Testaments - the old and the new. 

There are 39 books in the Old Testament, and there are  27 books in the New Testament.




			
				meelak said:
			
		

> You cannot have it both ways. You cannot include




I cannot?

I can - and do. 



Christian release from Mosaic law is explicitly spelled out in the following passages, and many other passages throughout the New Testament.


_Christ is the end of the Law and believers are not under the Mosaic Law. New Testament believers are not under Law but under grace_ (Rom. 6:14).

_Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith _(Rom. 8:2-4).

_Against such, i.e., the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law because the believer is then operating under the highest law, the standards are met as we walk by the Holy Spirit and grow in the Word_ (Gal. 5:22). 


Those are copied verbatim from my copy of the New Testament.

You'll understand if I put more stock in the above verses, than your stubborn insistence that I'm "picking and choosing". We do not pick and choose anything. It is quite explicitly laid out for us.




			
				meelak said:
			
		

> Also, I have no disrespect for any christianity.



I didn't say you have disrespect for christianity. I said you have a lack of understanding of it.  And nothing in this post disabuses me of that perception.





			
				meelak said:
			
		

> But what my point was that we do not have any right to pick and choose what we practice and not practice from the god's words. When we say we believe, we have to believe in its entirety.



Like I said to you before - we do not pick and choose which of Jesus's teachings we follow. We strive to follow them ALL.



Jesus Christ's teachings.

Thus the name Christian.


----------



## Hessian

*TOX...et al.*

Muhammed created his collection of beliefs from elements of the culture he lived in...
a) The worshipping of Black stones was not uncommon in his day or before: There was a black stone at Byblos and altars were buils around them Aparrently the stone at Kaaba used to have numerous altars provided by the Arabian tribes...and gues what: that was the direction they used to pray in...gee, sound familiar?

b) Dominent diety of the era: Al-ilah: the moon. and thus the crescent moon enters heavily in muslim symbolism, the tribe called the Sabeans were farther south in Saudi Arabia and they fasted during the crescent moon.

c) The appelation "the Merciful" also predates the creation of "Allah"...common in its attachment to the moon diety.

d) Mohammed's early wanderings took him up the peninsula and put him contact with numerous caravans bring goods from Eithiopia, Persia, and Palestine. it is here that he got an incomplete education on bits of the OT and some mixed early Christian teachings...this naturally forms his early opinions and he tried to mix in a few ideas with his pagan roots.

e) The moody wanderings in his 40th year allowed him an encounter with "Gabriel" who confronted him and forced him to read a proclamation. I suppose this is not unlike Joseph Smith getting his tablets of Gold in western NY and was again oddly ordered to "READ!"

f) In an attempt to win over reluctant elite of Mecca to his new found revelations...he condemned the idols hanging around the Kaaba and threatened destruction on all unbelievers but he also settled on a compromise; they would be allowed to keep three of the moon's daughters: al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat because they could intercede to Allah on behalf of the "faithful."...later this is recanted and labeled the "satanic verses."
Alas...it was to no avail...He was still mocked and then persecuted-so he fled.

g) In 619 Mohammed took a glorious flight up to Jerusalem on the back of a mule-like beast with a human head...prayed, then visited the 7 heavens (no..not 7-Elevens) followed by a nice encounter with many previous prophets from the OT and of course Jesus. Of course from here he had a personal interview with the moon himself (Allah). (Koran 17:1)
THIS little trip was supposed to bring him praise and awe from the "people of the book" who would naturally claim he is a prophet too....um, didn't work.

h) In the summer of 621, when his fortunes were ebbing he claimed to have a visit by 12 loyal muslims up in Yathrib. They promised to go spread his teachings...interesting regarding those "12" apostles..This is where he galvinized his followers and consolidated power...renaming the town Medina.
He needed cash to secure his power so he authorized raids on caravans (razzias) traveling between Mecca and Syria....the first three thieving raids were failures. The fourth suceeded in killing one and kidnapping two others...He demanded a ransom in silver for the two kept alive and got it.
Thus the fine tradition of kidnapping opponents is sanctioned by muhammed himself.---The raid occurred during Ramadan.
He then manages to keep 20% of all booty taken in these raids.(Koran 8:41)

i) Muhammad was able to fall upon a body of troops coming out of Mecca and capture one of his earlier critics: al-Nadir (this was the battle of Badr). and apparently the killing of prisoners was under way when Mohmmed spotted him...and beheaded him,...yes another fine tradition was begun. Immediately following a reign of terror purged the last of the "unfaithful" from Medina: Convert or die...yet another tradition was initiated. He urged his loyal followers to rid the region of critics, poets, and anyone whose prose mocked him.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I figure that a number of our Islamic brethren on here have me on "ignore" which is fine with me. But I did want to trace a number of their early practices and beliefs without going to some sheik Abu-Khaliid Sadir imam website- and getting a "glorious" verson of it.

Islam, ...a religion of pieces.


----------



## Hessian

*And just to head off the countercharges...*

Don't bloviate over worshipping Mary as Diana or jump on other odd practices of the catholic church...you see, we had this thing called a Reformation (celebrated 11/1) that cleaned out our practices and restructured our faith: Sola Scriptura...Built solely on the inerrant Word of God.

I think Islam should give a reformation a try...

oh but they can't: The koran is absolutely eternal and without flaw (except those darn satanic verses). AND if they return back to the original practices and behavior of Mohammed: its Jihad 24/7.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Hessian,

Haha, typical of Christian missionaries: they post articles without any sort of sources. Instead of allowing their arguments to be subjected to criticism, they develop myths without any evidence to support their claims.

It doesn't really matter, each argument made above can be debunked through evidence and reason:


Reply To Robert Morey's Moon-God Allah Myth: A Look At The Archaeological Evidence

Refutation Of The Borrowing Theories Of The Qur'an

Rahmānān (RHMNN) - An Ancient South Arabian Moon God?

Please don't regurgitate information without criticizing it. Thats being intellectually dishonest.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## jetmonkey

meelak said:
			
		

> Exactly. If you pick up a book written by one side - you are going to be presented the story from their view only. Go to the *authentic sources like UN, US government archives, wikipedia,* etc.


----------



## vraiblonde

meelak said:
			
		

> If the bible says don't eat the port, if I am a christian then I must not eat it. If I say, I will go ahead and do it because it is not applicable to me or I don't believe in that edict, then I am making fun of god's words. What else can you call it?


What part of this is so hard to understand?  It was laid out to you in simple, plain English.


----------



## Hessian

A quote from your source you cited against the moon worship issue:

"To begin with, the South-Arabian pantheon is not properly known. Its astral foundation is indisputable. As in most contemporary semitic cults, the southern Arabs worshipped stars and planets, chief among whom were the Sun, Moon and ‘Athtar, the Venus.[23] "

So..this Morey fellow finds statures with moons carved on them and then the interpretation becomes open-ended...
Later your scholars openly support the astral worship of the Arabians...

But of course none of this influenced Muhammed.

Don't shoot the messenger:
"Please don't regurgitate information without criticizing it. Thats being intellectually dishonest."

I didn't regurgitate: I introduced.
I didn't crticise it, you did...
I pointed out your scholars cannot discount the moon connect-in intellectual honesty.

What nothing to say regarding Muhammed's beheading practices?


----------



## PJay

Have any Christians here read the Koran?

And what do you Muslims think about beheadings...do you believe this should still be practiced today? Meelak you said Christians should follow their Bible completely...how about you? Do you follow the Koran to the letter?


----------



## Toxick

Homesick said:
			
		

> Have any Christians here read the Koran?



 


It was a while back though, and I'm not prepared for a quiz.
I'm probably going to read it again soon for a refresher.


----------



## vraiblonde

I'd forgotten about this until Hessian just reminded me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_(novel)



> The novel caused much controversy upon publication in 1988, as many Muslims considered that it contained blasphemous references. India was the first country to ban the book. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the Supreme Leader of Iran, a Shi'a Muslim scholar, issued a fatwa that called for the death of Rushdie and claimed that it was the duty of every Muslim to obey.
> 
> On February 14, 1989, the Ayatollah broadcast the following message on Iranian radio: "I inform the proud Muslim people of the world that the author of the Satanic Verses book, which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Qur'an, and all those involved in its publication who are aware of its content are sentenced to death" 1.
> 
> As a result, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese translator of the book was stabbed to death in July 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month; and William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993. On February 14, 2006, the Iranian state news agency reported that the fatwa will remain in place permanently. [1]



Yep, just some peace-loving Muslims.  And that fringe element Ayatollah.  And I'm sure that Timeline is all lies and distortions.


----------



## Hessian

Abdulhaqq cited this source earlier and yes...I did read it through-it was very enlightening (seriously: I enjoy a good archaeological discourse and assessment). 
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html


The author sure did some serious Homework...HOWEVER. I can't imagine that this anti-Morey polemic has a second side to it. It is an academic argument and I would love to see a debate between the two scholars but...under Islamic Law, there is to be no accomodation or discussion with those who have disparaged Allah so...we will only get barrage and counter barrage.
if Morey showed up to debate...there would be death threats against him just like Rushdie....

time to reform Islam.


----------



## punjabigyrl

Is it me or the discussion is going in circles. I keep seeing the question of "why the clerics not condeming terrorism?" and in my opinion have been answered throughly with links and all however, maybe put in another language might help.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Dear Forum Members,

Here is an excellent video.

*Can You Be Texan and Muslim?*
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9184353144432289069&q=islam

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq


----------



## Railroad

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Forum Members,
> 
> Here is an excellent video.
> 
> *Can You Be Texan and Muslim?*
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9184353144432289069&q=islam
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


 
You can be from anywhere and Muslim; you can be from anywhere and subscribe to any religion you want (in THIS country and a few others).  But:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. *No one* comes to the Father *except through Me."* - John 14:6 (emphasis added)

A good quote from an Indiana Jones movie: "You must choose, but choose _wisely."_


----------



## willie

abdulhaqq said:
			
		

> Dear Forum Members,
> 
> Here is an excellent video.
> 
> *Can You Be Texan and Muslim?*
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9184353144432289069&q=islam
> 
> With Peace,
> Abdulhaqq


What's the video about?  I don't care to watch a barbarian perform a beheading.


----------



## Sharon

willie said:
			
		

> What's the video about?  I don't care to watch a barbarian perform a beheading.


I turned it off after it said, "Bible-bashing conservatives are turning Muslim." 

 ItsBob would be interested.


----------



## Mikeinsmd

willie said:
			
		

> What's the video about?  I don't care to watch a barbarian perform a beheading.


These terrorists are still in here trying to spread their sewage??


----------



## itsbob

Sharon said:
			
		

> I turned it off after it said, "Bible-bashing conservatives are turning Muslim."
> 
> ItsBob would be interested.



Someone call??


I'm not turning anything, and especially NOT muslim..

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...


----------



## Toxick

willie said:
			
		

> What's the video about?  I don't care to watch a barbarian perform a beheading.




It's about steak-eating, football watching, pickup-truck driving, Texas-flag-waving, all american good-ol'boys (and gals) embracing islam and becoming muslim.


"Ah wanna sit close to MO-ham-id".

It's a fairly interesting video.



Although hearing a texan accent coming out of a burka was somewhat unsettling at first.


----------



## abdulhaqq

Toxick said:
			
		

> It's about steak-eating, football watching, pickup-truck driving, Texas-flag-waving, all american good-ol'boys (and gals) embracing islam and becoming muslim.
> 
> 
> "Ah wanna sit close to MO-ham-id".
> 
> It's a fairly interesting video.
> 
> 
> 
> Although hearing a texan accent coming out of a burka was somewhat unsettling at first.



Yeah I thought that was kinda wierd.


----------



## abdulhaqq

itsbob said:
			
		

> Someone call??
> 
> 
> I'm not turning anything, and especially NOT muslim..
> 
> Imagine there's no heaven
> It's easy if you try
> No hell below us
> Above us only sky
> Imagine all the people
> Living for today...



I didn't post the movie in order to convince you to become Muslim, but for some people to be more critical of their own views of Islam.

Btw, have you heard the "A Perfect Circle" cover of that song?


----------



## PJay

...


----------

